View Full Version : How would Bowe do against the great HW?


fight_professor
07-18-2009, 12:50 PM
So how would Bowe fare against the following, prime v prime of course:

Ali

Louis

Holmes

Tyson

Lewis

Marciano

Dempsey

Frazier

Liston

Foreman

Start with this lot.

boxingbuff
07-18-2009, 05:36 PM
So how would Bowe fare against the following, prime v prime of course:

Ali

Louis

Holmes

Tyson

Lewis

Marciano

Dempsey

Frazier

Liston

Foreman

Start with this lot.

Bowe would lose a decision to Ali,Holmes

Bowe would get KO'd by Forman,Liston,Tyson,Frazier,Dempsey,Marciano,Louis

Bowe would beat Lewis by decision

These are 15 round fights

Jim Jeffries
07-18-2009, 05:59 PM
Bowe would lose a decision to Ali,Holmes

Bowe would get KO'd by Forman,Liston,Tyson,Frazier,Dempsey,Marciano,Louis

Bowe would beat Lewis by decision

These are 15 round fights

If Bowe would beat Lewis, then why did he go to such great lengths to avoid him?

Sugarj
07-18-2009, 07:51 PM
Good thread, I'll assume we are talking about the peak 1991/92 Bowe:

I favour Ali by decision in one of his toughest ever fights, no shutout at all.

I think Bowe could possibly get a late rounds stoppage over Louis. I'd expect a great fight but hell Bowe was so big, powerful and mobile, I couldn't bet against him here. (I'll get flack for this one!!)

I think that Holmes would do the same to Bowe as Ali, but not quite as conclusively, probably a close decision.

I favour Bowe by a whisker over Lewis, I honestly think that they were close skillwise but I think Bowe would find Lewis's chin at some point and lets face it both of Lennox's losses were ONE PUNCH KOs. Bowe had great one punch hitting power and enough skills to find the chin of Lewis.

I think Bowe would destroy the much smaller Marciano, the gap in size and reach would make for comedic viewing. For all Marciano's heart and chin he is either losing a brave decision or getting stopped on cuts or facial injuries.

The same would happen to Dempsey as Marciano IMHO, that said Dempsey was faster than the rock, less likely to suffer facial injuries and may stand a slightly better chance. Bowe was much better than Jess Willard or Angel Firpo! Please, I dont want anyone to mention these names in citing that Dempsey would have a good chance.

Bowe would have nearly as much chance of knocking out Frazier early as Foreman did, Bowe's uppercuts were terrific, the key punch against Frazier along with his excellent jab. Bowe again is too big, fast and heavy.

A fight with Liston is tough to call, Liston's fights with Williams have impressed me and I think we'd see a closely contested fight and a decision that could go either way. Both their chins were great.

I find it too hard to find a winner between Bowe and Foreman. If the Foreman that fought Young fought the Bowe that fought Holyfield I think Bowe would take a decision. As for the undefeated 1973 Foreman, I dont know! Bowe could hold a shot well so I think we'd be looking at a distance fight.........a very exciting one, possibly with either being knocked down enroute. I'd give Foreman the early rounds, the result would rely on how big a lead Foreman had built up.

I'm expecting flack for a few of these but they are my heartfelt opinions after watching extensive footage of all.

fight_professor
07-18-2009, 09:34 PM
I agree with most of these calls.

Bowe smokes Marciano and Dempsey. I got him over Frazier too. Only Ali and Holmes for me and certs against prime Bowe (prime v prime discussion).

Would favour Tyson and perhaps Foreman, but the rest is evens or favouring Bowe.

D-MiZe
07-18-2009, 09:34 PM
Bowe was scared of Lewis.

:haha:

fight_professor
07-18-2009, 09:36 PM
I see Bowe KOing Lennox. They didnt fight as there was no money in it then for Bowe. Prime Bowe is for me a top 7/8 HW (who beats who list).

mickey malone
07-19-2009, 05:35 AM
I think that you tend to overrate Bowe.. His heart was never really in the sport.. He was exposed in the olympics & then again in the pros by a heartless cheat (Golota) none of the other great fighters struggled with Golota, they just blasted him outta there.. Bowe was virtually retired by him..

Ali by UD
Louis by late stoppage
Holmes by UD
Lewis by brutal KO
Frazier by SD
Foreman by KO

He'd be too big for Dempsey & Marciano though.. Both UD's in Bowes favor..
I think the best one to watch would be Vs Liston.. They're so damn similar.. Probably a draw...

bojangles1987
07-19-2009, 09:17 AM
So how would Bowe fare against the following, prime v prime of course:

Ali

Louis

Holmes

Tyson

Lewis

Marciano

Dempsey

Frazier

Liston

Foreman

Start with this lot.

I'll use the Bowe who fought the first Holyfield fight, as that was his best:

Ali busts him up for an easy decision.

Louis gets knocked out late in the fight or loses a decision.

Holmes wins a tight decision.

Frazier knocks him out. So does Foreman.

Liston loses by decision.

Tyson, as with most fights, either knocks Bowe out early or gets KOed late.

Lewis wins a comfortable decision.

Marciano and Dempsey each got knocked out.

fight_professor
07-19-2009, 10:01 AM
I think that you tend to overrate Bowe..

The Bowe I see in tapes is a superb fighter. Esp the Holy 1 tape. That fluency on a big guy, great inside work, power and decent speed. A top jab.

Those tools break down most HW.

At his peak, I see very few people beating him. :thumbsdow

Ziggy Stardust
07-19-2009, 11:05 AM
Ali - Ali by lopsided decision.

Louis - Louis by brutal mid-rounds KO.

Holmes - Holmes by solid decision.

Tyson - Tyson by decision after building up a big lead then gassing mid-rounds.

Lewis - Lewis by close decision.

Marciano & Frazier - Marciano & Frazier both by late stoppage after brutalizing Bowe's body for several rounds.

Dempsey - Dempsey by lopsided decision or mid-rounds stoppage.

Liston - Liston by brutal mid-rounds KO.

Foreman - Foreman by brutal early KO.

BTW, I have Bowe rank somewhere around 20 all-time at Heavyweight.

Poet

boxingbuff
07-19-2009, 04:14 PM
So Bowe's prime was 1 fight? Lol

fight_professor
07-19-2009, 04:42 PM
No. But that night stands as the most obvious example of him at his best.

Sugarj
07-19-2009, 04:59 PM
No, between 91 and 95 Bowe was a superb heavyweight, arguably the best in this time. Evander Holyfield is beyond dispute an ATG (his peak was the early 90s) and Bowe holds a points decision, a brutal KO and a ridiculously close points loss to him.......excellent heavyweight credentials!

His peak was short no doubt, but wasn't Tyson's too? Tyson self destructed and Bowe over ate. He was too heavy and underprepared for the first match with Golota and too light and spindly for the return, he paid the price. But this doesn't mean that at his best he'd beat many on the list.

No one ever knocked him out, he only ever lost ONE close points decision and he rose to win after every knockdown he ever suffered (and there weren't many). He showed incredible bravery in the second Golota fight rising from one or two knockdowns and didn't milk the repeated low blows. He rightly deserved his wins by Disqualification, shot though he was.

Sorry but how anyone can think that a huge guy who has demonstrated one of the best chins of the 90s (and has never ever been KO'd or TKO'd as a pro) is going to get knocked out by guys so much smaller weighing between 180 and 204 Lbs like Louis, Marciano, Dempsey and Frazier is beyond me.

I love these guys and they are rightly better regarded legends of the sport than Bowe but hell, they're not knocking him out! Lewis, Foreman and Liston had better chances but predicting brutal, early KOs are not giving Bowe's proven chin, strength, heart and workrate due respect.

fight_professor
07-19-2009, 05:38 PM
^

Fully agree.

Someone like Frazier (any of the smaller guys, maybe save Tyson) would just eat shots, and be a sucker for that uppercut. Bowe was a good inside guy.

Sugarj
07-19-2009, 06:24 PM
Absolutely! I forgot to post an analysis of how a Tyson fight would go but would concur with Poet that Tyson would probably get a decision after building a good early points lead.

The second Tyson vs Ruddock fight is a good indicator of this for me. Tyson was a touch post prime and Ruddock was no Bowe (skills wise) but this analogy is as good as I can think of based on their comparable sizes and weight, great punch power and chins (Ruddock hauled himself off the canvas something like four times or so in two fights with Tyson).

Both Bowe and Tyson had great chins at their peaks, I think we'd be looking at a distance fight, Tyson's skills and elusiveness at his best take the victory for me. But its only an opinion.

mickey malone
07-19-2009, 10:03 PM
The Bowe I see in tapes is a superb fighter. Esp the Holy 1 tape. That fluency on a big guy, great inside work, power and decent speed. A top jab.

Those tools break down most HW.

At his peak, I see very few people beating him. :thumbsdow
Yes he was... And I do appreciate that, but not enough miles on the clock for me.. The fights against a much smaller Holyfield, seemed to diminish him, where as Evander's still fighting today! Even Golota still climbs in the ring occasionaly, but I feel the boxing fan got sold well short with Bowe...

Miburo
07-19-2009, 11:57 PM
I don't see Bowe getting stopped by anyone except perhaps Foreman. His size and infighting ability would give anyone a serious test.

Sugarj
07-20-2009, 05:00 AM
Hi Mickey, Bowe is still fighting too, he was on a recent Klitchko undercard and to be honest he didn't look any worse than he did against Golota, not that its saying much.

I agree that the Holyfield fights did diminish him somewhat and his speach was slurring after the second Golota fight but some fighters can be damaged by one fight when a man is taking repeated blows from another world class fighter to the head, he simply did not have Holyfield's longevity. At least not in world class.

It may have been head trauma as well as his overeating that caused his downfall. Us human beings are frail and the brain is a complex organ. Marciano 'apparently' retired with bad headaches, his peak wasn't any longer than Bowe's but no one feels short changed with him. Same with Joe Frazier, didn't have a long peak either. OR dare I say it Dempsey, he only had a seven year reign due to his ridiculous inactivity in the mid 20s (how long was it two and a half years or something between defenses!) and when he did defend against Tunney it was a whitewash.

Another thing that gets mentioned is about Holyfield being so much smaller than Bowe. Riddick clearly was much bigger. However Holyfield was around 218Lbs and 6ft 3. Contrast this with the height and weight of the likes of Dempsey, Marciano, Louis and Frazier (non of which are taller than 6ft 1 and all weighing between 185 and 204 Lbs) and you get a picture of what it would be really like to watch these little guys actually face Bowe, no commision would surely allow it!!! And some folks are predicting brutal knockouts by them!

Holyfield's dimensions were much closer to Sonny Liston's, who was considered huge in the late 50s and early 60s. How times change.

Benny Leonard
07-20-2009, 05:22 AM
Some people are underrating Bowe. Bowe defeated Holyfield at his best and it was a War so there is only so much you can question about his heart, will, chin, toughness, and skill.

Bowe's problem was he tended to be so-so with regards to how much he really wanted to be a boxer. When he got to the top it didn't seem to quite matter as much before and he loved to battle it out with the refrigerator which didn't help when he had to train back down in weight for a fight. Something with those Brownsville Boys and trying to get them motivated and stay away from the food. Seriously, Tyson, Briggs, Bowe...WTF?
But, when he was on top of his game, maybe even somewhat, he still did well, which included beating all Heart/Warrior Holyfield


The Holyfield fights as well as his battle with his weight/food and motivation, ended his prime. He also may have been "too nice" as they say. One reason I remember hearing Tyson didn't want to fight Bowe; he didn't feel like he could get himself to punch Bowe because he knew him and liked him very much.



I'll have to think about the results, but some are acting like Bowe was some Slow Plodding Big HW with no chin, no skill, and no heart.

Take him at his Best when doing Fantasy fights. Take him when he was trained by Eddie Futch and beat The Real Deal at his best.
By the way; How many people had knocked out Holyfield when Bowe did it? ZERO. Bowe knocked him out.

mickey malone
07-20-2009, 06:04 AM
RE: SugarJ.. Good post.. Valid point on the size of Holyfield to.. He'd also be bigger than Joe Louis.. Apart from chin, I don't think Holy was as good as Louis, & besides him, I wouldn't pick any of the black & white era to beat a prime Bowe, but they'd all whoop him as he is today.
I can't really take the come back seriously.. He's in dreadful shape, sporting a deflated paddling pool in place of his mid riff, & the guys he's fighting aren't even D class.. I think it's fair to say, he wouldn't beat Holy or Golota if they were to fight again tomorrow..
With opinion, I find there's always 1 or 2 guys in every division who the majority of people rate highly, but I don't, & visa versa.. For example, I rate Gene Tunney, but most people don't, & I don't particularly rate Liston, but most people do.. I suppose it all depends on how you analize styles.. In fairness, Bowe had some great attributes, but got distracted & wasted them.. Other than that I think he'd be in everyones top 10..

Sugarj
07-20-2009, 06:24 AM
I am in total agreement with everything you've said there Mickey, particularly Gene Tunney who was for me like a smaller Larry Holmes stylistically and one of my all time faves. My only disagreement is predictably on the Sonny Liston front, to me he looked bloody good between the mid 50s and 1962.

sonnyboyx2
07-20-2009, 06:27 AM
So how would Bowe fare against the following, prime v prime of course:

Ali

Louis

Holmes

Tyson

Lewis

Marciano

Dempsey

Frazier

Liston

Foreman

Start with this lot.

Ali v Bowe --- Ali KO11
Louis v Bowe --- Louis KO11
Marciano v Bowe --- Marciano KO11
Tyson v Bowe ---- Bowe KO14
Holmes v Bowe ----Bowe KO13
Lewis v Bowe ---- Bowe KO7
Frazier v Bowe ----Frazier KO11
Dempsey v Bowe --- Dempsey KO7
Liston v Bowe ---- Bowe PTS
Foreman v Bowe --- Bowe PTS

mickey malone
07-20-2009, 06:37 AM
I am in total agreement with everything you've said there Mickey, particularly Gene Tunney who was for me like a smaller Larry Holmes stylistically and one of my all time faves. My only disagreement is predictably on the Sonny Liston front, to me he looked bloody good between the mid 50s and 1962.
Good way of describing Tunney.. I also think Liston was pretty good, but not quite top 10.. I know I'm in the minority, but in a way he was similar to Bowe & didn't make the most of his resume.. I also think Ali made him look worse than Richard Dunn (although I know Liston would KO Dunn in 1 round lol)

Kid McCoy
07-20-2009, 06:46 AM
I tend to view Bowe in the same way as Buster Douglas. Both great talents who unfortunately shared the same training and eating habits. Like Buster, Bowe also only had one great performance against elite opposition.

Other than beating Holyfield, what else is there to go on? Beating Holyfield, great fighter though he was, is not enough to convince me that he's beating other elite heavies, many of whom were either better than Holyfield or bring completely different attributes to the table. He looked impressive enough blasting out the likes of Jesse Ferguson and Jorge Gonzalez, but against that level of opposition he ought to.

It's possible to read too much into the Holyfield fights. Holyfield had respectable power, but wasn't exactly George Foreman in that respect and still had Bowe down and reeling around the ring in their third fight. Evander also fought a stupid fight first time round, giving away his superior boxing ability by brawling inside with Bowe.

Based on his size, strength and ability, Bowe is capable of beating anyone on that list, if the first Holyfield version turns up. Having Eddie Futch in the corner won't do him any harm either. Given that he's such an unproven quantity, however, who would really back him to beat an Ali, a Foreman or a Louis?

Benny Leonard
07-20-2009, 06:47 AM
I am in total agreement with everything you've said there Mickey, particularly Gene Tunney who was for me like a smaller Larry Holmes stylistically and one of my all time faves. My only disagreement is predictably on the Sonny Liston front, to me he looked bloody good between the mid 50s and 1962.

As a LH or a HW?


Either way, one of the ATG fighters to grace the Big Stage.

Benny Leonard
07-20-2009, 06:52 AM
Can people give some explanations as to why they are giving either fighter the win?

Frazier: If he wins, why?

Maricano: If he wins, why?

Dempsey: If he wins, why?

Tyson: If he wins, why?

etc. etc. etc.

Sugarj
07-20-2009, 07:07 AM
Hi Benny, when I talk of Tunney I mean largely as a heavyweight. I make it a point not to comment or offer much opinion on fights or fighters that I haven't actually seen films of and honestly I've not seen much of Tunney as a light heavyweight. I have seen the Carpentier fight and forget in the passage of time if this was at heavyweight or light heavy.

But when I compare him to Holmes i mean in movement, fast feet, light on his toes, tricky to catch clean, calculating. Great left jab, fast combinations and a not too shabby right uppercut too.

The second fight with Dempsey (which actually bares some interesting comparisons to the Tyson Douglas fight too, stylistcally and because of the notorious long count) reminds me of when Holmes met Shavers for the title. Shavers clearly knocks Holmes down with an almighty shot, but Larry listens to the count, rises, dances and fiddles his way to survival before coming back to beat Shavers.

Benny Leonard
07-20-2009, 07:31 AM
Hi Benny, when I talk of Tunney I mean largely as a heavyweight. I make it a point not to comment or offer much opinion on fights or fighters that I haven't actually seen films of and honestly I've not seen much of Tunney as a light heavyweight. I have seen the Carpentier fight and forget in the passage of time if this was at heavyweight or light heavy.

But when I compare him to Holmes i mean in movement, fast feet, light on his toes, tricky to catch clean, calculating. Great left jab, fast combinations and a not too shabby right uppercut too.

The second fight with Dempsey (which actually bares some interesting comparisons to the Tyson Douglas fight too, stylistcally and because of the notorious long count) reminds me of when Holmes met Shavers for the title. Shavers clearly knocks Holmes down with an almighty shot, but Larry listens to the count, rises, dances and fiddles his way to survival before coming back to beat Shavers.



Ah....

I think it may be tough putting him in the top 10 for HW if that is what you are saying. His biggest wins were against Dempsey and by that point; Dempsey may not have been at his best considering he had come off a 3 year layoff so it is hard to say that was the same Dempsey both mentally and physically that took the title. Maybe it wouldn't have mattered because of the skill-set of Tunney, but there is enough to question it. And then what's left?
We could probably just compare him to fighters under 200 pounds and do that kind of listing.

However, when you do look at the footage that is available, you do lean towards thinking he may be able to take this guy or that guy. He was a mover, a thinker, and a tough fighter so that may trouble the 200+ pounders that tended to be plodders.


I'm really not sure.

As a LH, I've seen most (if not all) lists have him in the top 10 ATG as a LH...and of course, P4P ATG list.

Considering his weight never went up above 200, we can still compare him with LH-CW or any fighter that weighed around his height.

It's a bit harder to start putting him up against the bigger guys when we don't really have the data to back him up on this.

Dempsey at least had some big guys although their skill-set/ability is questionable...but the threat of size, height, strength, power, etc. is still there to look at as a threat.

I'll have to think about it myself.

Sugarj
07-20-2009, 07:42 AM
Oh and in response to your previous post Benny, I obviously dont think Marciano, Dempsey and Frazier would beat Bowe but I'll give you my take on Tyson.

I could see Tyson doing well early slipping Bowe's jab and throwing fast left hook counters to head and body, it would not suprise me to see a knock down not unlike any of the Razor Ruddock knockdowns, maybe a fast right hand here and there. Bowe would no doubt rise from being knocked down if it did happen and come back punching, but I think his normally slick jab would be offset by Tyson's freakish head movement. I watched the Mitch Greene fight recently and the way Tyson got past Greene's fast punches was pretty impressive and closed the distance.

Once inside both these guys were impressive infighters but I could see Tyson's famous right uppercut to the body then to the head combo working well as Bowe tried to get his own uppercuts off. He used this nicely against Bruno in their first meeting and also in the first Holyfield fight, round four or five I think.

Tyson would no doubt slow a bit after six rounds as was his tendency, I wouldn't doubt he'd be ahead but Bowe would have I'm sure held his own and landed well. I'd actually favour Bowe to steal rounds here with his combinations and frustrate and tire Tyson with his weight in the clinches. But I feel a peak Tyson was too lively to actually be stopped by Bowe. Tyson had some good tenth rounds in his time so I dont think he would finish too shabby (Tillis and Ribalta jump to mind but I haven't seen these fights in a while so I am rusty)!

I think we'd be left with a fairly close points decision for Tyson, a knockdown or two enroute would help his cause after having one of his toughest fights.

Sugarj
07-20-2009, 07:54 AM
And no much as I love Gene Tunney I wouldn't have him in my all time top ten heavyweight list, he was too small to mix with much bigger heavyweights who could do what he could IMO better such as Ali, Holmes, Lewis or even Wlad. Also, his title reign was brief and his heavyweight credentials were not too colourful.

A great cruiserweight equivalent though and an artistic pioneer of slick hit and move boxing, he'd have been a great trainer.

Benny Leonard
07-20-2009, 07:57 AM
Oh and in response to your previous post Benny, I obviously dont think Marciano, Dempsey and Frazier would beat Bowe but I'll give you my take on Tyson.

I could see Tyson doing well early slipping Bowe's jab and throwing fast left hook counters to head and body, it would not suprise me to see a knock down not unlike any of the Razor Ruddock knockdowns, maybe a fast right hand here and there. Bowe would no doubt rise from being knocked down if it did happen and come back punching, but I think his normally slick jab would be offset by Tyson's freakish head movement. I watched the Mitch Greene fight recently and the way Tyson got past Greene's fast punches was pretty impressive and closed the distance.

Once inside both these guys were impressive infighters but I could see Tyson's famous right uppercut to the body then to the head combo working well as Bowe tried to get his own uppercuts off. He used this nicely against Bruno in their first meeting and also in the first Holyfield fight, round four or five I think.

Tyson would no doubt slow a bit after six rounds as was his tendency, I wouldn't doubt he'd be ahead but Bowe would have I'm sure held his own and landed well. I'd actually favour Bowe to steal rounds here with his combinations and frustrate and tire Tyson with his weight in the clinches. But I feel a peak Tyson was too lively to actually be stopped by Bowe. Tyson had some good tenth rounds in his time so I dont think he would finish too shabby (Tillis and Ribalta jump to mind but I haven't seen these fights in a while so I am rusty)!

I think we'd be left with a fairly close points decision for Tyson, a knockdown or two enroute would help his cause after having one of his toughest fights.

Some good points.

I think some people tend to over-look the damage Tyson places on fighters early on as to why they can't quite respond as well by the mid-late rounds in a fight against him. He breaks people down both mentally and physically with his style/ability.

This goes with the stamina bit. Tyson fought hard early so his stamina was going to deplete faster than someone that paces himself more...especially against fighters that are taller, heavier, maybe even stronger, etc.

Tyson would start out fast, bust up your body and bang around your head, and then settle down and box you if he couldn't get you out of there by his KO rounds. But by the point he settled down, usually the opponent was worn down to the point that not only physically couldn't he quite fight back like he wanted to, but mentally he was not as strong.

The Mitch Green fight is a good fight because it is Tyson's first fight after going the distance against Tillis. The Tillis fight was explained by Rooney that Tyson was still unsure of himself with his stamina to go the distance.
Which causes you to take the foot of the gas and even some nerves that wear you down. So, by the time Tyson got to the last round, the end point, he understood he was fine and after the fight matured as a fighter with confidence....which takes us to how he fought against Green and the difference one fight makes to a young maturing fighter.

Now, if that would have happened with a Prime Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, etc. that is something else. We don't really know how Tyson would have done against the 90's HWs...Peak vs. Peak.
He threw it away.
Shame because he was continually improving until after the Spinks fight and then....down.

fight_professor
07-20-2009, 08:10 AM
Can people give some explanations as to why they are giving either fighter the win?

Frazier: If he wins, why?

Maricano: If he wins, why?

Dempsey: If he wins, why?

Tyson: If he wins, why?

etc. etc. etc.

Its nonsense to suggest Marciano, Dempsey and Frazier would beat Bowe. Too small, would be tailor made for Bowe with that all out style.

Tyson too, except his extra speed and power give him something to shout about. Bowe may well go 4-0 against that lot, at least 3-1 with Tyson the only loss.

mickey malone
07-20-2009, 08:30 AM
Can people give some explanations as to why they are giving either fighter the win?

Frazier: If he wins, why?

Maricano: If he wins, why?

Dempsey: If he wins, why?

Tyson: If he wins, why?

etc. etc. etc.
Ali.... Wins by UD.... Faster hands/feet, more accurate, more heart..

Louis.... Wins by late stoppage.... Power speed & accuracy with both hands, more heart.. Too compact, better conditioning.. Bowe not been in with anyone who hits this hard.. Would stand a good punchers chance though..

Frazier.... Bowe struggles punching down.. Frazier being the wealthy mans Herbie Hyde, would pull off a split DC if able to stay on his feet.. Left hook to the body being a deciding factor.. Would get the better exchanges inside, but would get dominated on the outside.. Frazier too wise for that, I think..

Lewis... Similar in attributes, but Lewis has the faster counter & one of the best faints of all time.. He'd have Bowe outta there by late KO..

Liston... If Bowe takes his power in the early rounds, Liston would get frustrated and be picked off in the 2nd half of the fight.. They're about the same regards heart, but Listons superior conditioning should eek out a draw..

Tyson... No one beats a prime Tyson (my opinion)

Dempsey & Marciano... Both lose UD's due to simply not enough height and reach to get inside.. I think Bowe can smother these guys & contain them...

mickey malone
07-20-2009, 08:44 AM
And no much as I love Gene Tunney I wouldn't have him in my all time top ten heavyweight list, he was too small to mix with much bigger heavyweights who could do what he could IMO better such as Ali, Holmes, Lewis or even Wlad. Also, his title reign was brief and his heavyweight credentials were not too colourful.

A great cruiserweight equivalent though and an artistic pioneer of slick hit and move boxing, he'd have been a great trainer.
He sneaks in at no 10 on my list.. He had better feet than Ali, got the better of Dempsey twice, & Dempsey is on more top 10's than not.. In fact, he totally exposed him, which suggests he'd have given Marciano nightmares to..

Sugarj
07-20-2009, 09:25 AM
He certainly exposed the post prime Dempsey. Prime for prime, tough call. Tunney may have simply had his number, but the 1919-1923 Dempsey was faster, had a much better workrate and was more relentless than the 1926/27version that lost to Tunney. I cant decide here.

As for Tunney vs Marciano, agreed. Tunney was a stylistic nightmare for the Rock although if Marciano did crash through (as Dempsey did in Tunney 2) I'd wager that Rocky could have the stamina and strength to finish the job, unlike the post prime Dempsey. That said no one else could finish Tunney, I'm pretty sure that even his lone loss to Greb was a points loss.

As for Tunney having better feet than Ali, interesting. I'd fancy that Ali is the slicker mover/dancer and had the faster feet. As we all know Ali at his peak was terrific at keeping at a perfect distance from opponents too. I'm guessing that you might be implying that he was better at sitting down on his punches when he was flat footed than Ali, this I could understand.

Now Jersey Joe Walcott was a master of both, I wish there were more films of him in his prime doing the 'Walcott Waltz' and the 'Walcott Shift'. Now..... theres a mover! In fact with a better chin and more imposing physical dimensions that man could have been a serious top ten heavyweight ATG.

mickey malone
07-20-2009, 10:42 AM
He certainly exposed the post prime Dempsey. Prime for prime, tough call. Tunney may have simply had his number, but the 1919-1923 Dempsey was faster, had a much better workrate and was more relentless than the 1926/27version that lost to Tunney. I cant decide here.

As for Tunney vs Marciano, agreed. Tunney was a stylistic nightmare for the Rock although if Marciano did crash through (as Dempsey did in Tunney 2) I'd wager that Rocky could have the stamina and strength to finish the job, unlike the post prime Dempsey. That said no one else could finish Tunney, I'm pretty sure that even his lone loss to Greb was a points loss.

As for Tunney having better feet than Ali, interesting. I'd fancy that Ali is the slicker mover/dancer and had the faster feet. As we all know Ali at his peak was terrific at keeping at a perfect distance from opponents too. I'm guessing that you might be implying that he was better at sitting down on his punches when he was flat footed than Ali, this I could understand.

Now Jersey Joe Walcott was a master of both, I wish there were more films of him in his prime doing the 'Walcott Waltz' and the 'Walcott Shift'. Now..... theres a mover! In fact with a better chin and more imposing physical dimensions that man could have been a serious top ten heavyweight ATG.
Good post... No one looked smoother than Ali on his feet, but it was whether he was playing to the crowd or not, where as Tunney was strictly business & used his attribute far better defensively, while keeping a much higher guard.. Ali was tagged most often while on his bike with a low guard, Frazier1 being the best example.. Granted, the fights with Dempsey were past prime, but Tunney wasn't a spring chicken either, & was only able to expose Dempsey because of his immaculate footwork.. The 1st fight exemplifies this superbly.. Dempsey simply couldn't catch him..
Your right about the soul defeat to Greb.. It was a DC and I think it was at Middleweight.. Tunney KO'd him at LH though...

Sugarj
07-20-2009, 11:35 AM
Your right Mickey, Ali did play to the crowd with his dancing and footwork, shuffles, knee wiggles and all. Sometimes he didn't even need to, Tunney certainly wouldn't, he was far too serious for that. But Ali's footwork certainly raised a smile out of me and to be fair to him, I dont think he ever did the shuffle in a fight he lost. Ha ha

Coonhound13
07-20-2009, 12:30 PM
Prime Bowe is a threat to any of the great heavyweights.

mickey malone
07-20-2009, 01:51 PM
Prime Bowe is a threat to any of the great heavyweights.
For a short amount of time... Yes.. He was...