for all the Lesnar haters in this forum, who has ever in the history of MMA accomplished more than Lesnar in their first 5 fights? Seriously, I want names.

the general perception seems to be that Lesnar is a WWE fake wrestler who has a very late start in mma and is currently just relying on his physicality rather than skill to win fights and that won't last long. well that perception couldn't be more wrong. First, Lesnar is a REAL wrestler just like Couture, Hughes, Henderson and countless other successful mma fighters, and Lesnar is arguably a better wrestler than all of them.

Sure Lesnar got a late start in MMA but so do a lot of MMA fighters. Even Couture only started in MMA at 33 years old while Lesnar started at 30 and there are things (like punches and knees) that lesnar is doing now that Couture still isn't good at.

So my point is this: Lesnar has only just skinned the surface of his MMA career. There is still SO MUCH for him to learn even though what he's learned so far has made him one of the top 2-3 heavyweights in the world. He might suffer another loss or 2 along the way but even Randy Couture is 16-9, with a couple of those loses coming to LHW fighters. But nevertheless, I know Lesnar is gonna have one of the best(if not the best) mma careers of all-time when its all said and done.

He's beaten some good name guys but the problem isn't who he's beating them, it's how he's beating them.

Lesnar isn't dominating opponents with superior skills, but more or less superior size, strenght and athleticism.

Dana White babbles on that the UFC HW division is the best it's ever been, but that's a crock of horse ****.

The HW division, not just in the UFC and not just in MMA, has always been meh.

The HW division in MMA lacks well rounded opponents. I can maybe name 2 or 3 guys that are well rounded HW's and none of them are in the UFC.

So my point being that even if Brock beats a good percentage of the guys in the UFC's heavyweight division, it's not going to mean very much when his career is over. because not only is he not winning with skills but because the HW division lacks well rounded fighters he won't have a legacy compared to a Georges St. Pierre or Anderson Silva because their divisions are STACKED with well rounded competition

he's beating them just fine. his straight right punch is very explosive and powerful and his knees against couture were very well executed considering the position he was in when he through them. and his ground and pound against mir was probably one of the best I've ever seen and he even finished Mir though Mir defended it well.

whether the HW division is great or not is besides the point but nevertheless, the UFC HW picture is looking better now than it ever has before.

the pride HW division was easily the best back in the day, but if the UFC can sign fedor and barnett, I would say that the UFC HW division would be the best it has ever been in any organization.

he's beating them just fine. his straight right punch is very explosive and powerful and his knees against couture were very well executed considering the position he was in when he through them.

whether the HW division is great or not is besides the point but nevertheless, the UFC HW picture is looking better now than it ever has before.

the pride HW division was easily the best back in the day, but if the UFC can sign fedor and barnett, I would say that the UFC HW division would be the best it has ever been in any organization.

I'm not saying Lesnar doesn't have any skills but the major factor in his wins isn't skills, it's size, strength and athleticism. Like if you took away all that and Brock had the skills he has now, he'd get crushed.

My point was more directed towards your comments that Lensar will have the most impressive resume of any HW which I think is BS.

We'll never know either because I don't see Fedor coming to negotiations with the UFC and I don't see Barnett resigning with the UFC given he left on bad terms

I'm not saying Lesnar doesn't have any skills but the major factor in his wins isn't skills, it's size, strength and athleticism. Like if you took away all that and Brock had the skills he has now, he'd get crushed.

My point was more directed towards your comments that Lensar will have the most impressive resume of any HW which I think is BS.

We'll never know either because I don't see Fedor coming to negotiations with the UFC and I don't see Barnett resigning with the UFC given he left on bad terms

Size, strength and athletiscism is his skills along with the amateur wrestling! That's like saying if you take the power and speed away from a prime Mike Tyson then what are you left with or if you take Wladimir Klitschko's height and reach away then what could he do!!

Size, strength and athletiscism is his skills along with the amateur wrestling! That's like saying if you take the power and speed away from a prime Mike Tyson then what are you left with or if you take Wladimir Klitschko's height and reach away then what could he do!!

No it's not. Being Big and Athletic like Brock can't be taught and therefore it's not a skill it's more or less a gift.

Just like height and reach. Can you teach someone how to be tall and have long arms? No. So it's not a skill.

No it's not. Being Big and Athletic like Brock can't be taught and therefore it's not a skill it's more or less a gift.

Just like height and reach. Can you teach someone how to be tall and have long arms? No. So it's not a skill.

You took all Brock's best attributes and said if he never had them he would be crushed! You could do that with a lot of sportsmen! Brock wasn't born strong he had to work out to get that strength!

kswizzy99 I agree with you on this.
I think he will end up with a very good record and i'm not anti Brock I was one of the first to stick up for him on here.

I just think it is way to soon to start saying that he is better than everyone else.

I think his win over Mir is overrated at the moment because a huge amount of bandwagon jumpers were riding Mir's nuts after the first fight.
No one was talking about Mir until he called out Brock.

Also with Couture Randy was a great champion one of the best ever and a great win for Brock but Randy is 40+ years old and had a 60-70 pound weight disadvantage.

I'm not saying that Lesnar will never be everything that you say he will ..as a matter of fact i'd bet on it if I had too but without further inspection /more fights against fighters of equal or closer size and or strength i'm not ready to just say 'ok lets put him in the hall of fame right now'.

I'm not saying Lesnar doesn't have any skills but the major factor in his wins isn't skills, it's size, strength and athleticism. Like if you took away all that and Brock had the skills he has now, he'd get crushed.
You took all Brock's best attributes and said if he never had them he would be crushed! You could do that with a lot of sportsmen! Brock wasn't born strong he had to work out to get that strength!

PrettyBoy1 is right on point. almost every successful athlete in the world has physical gifts to complement their skills. And Lesnar isn't any different. His physical gifts might be helping him out, but its not like he isn't using them properly. He presses the fight and goes for the finish at every opportunity he gets. And it was his LACK of skill and awareness that lost him the fight against Mir. But he improved on that skill and awareness in the rematch and dominated Mir for a TKO

Also the punch he gave Herring to break his orbital bone. The punch landing took skill, but the orbital bone breaking was due to his physical gifts of power. The same goes for the punch that wobbled Couture and then later in that fight another punch that dropped him.

All those physical gifts are fine, but if you don't have the skill to go along with them, you will not be successful in MMA.

Most guys have to work their way up the ranks before getting a title shot. So the answer is none.

PrettyBoy1 is right on point. almost every successful athlete in the world has physical gifts to complement their skills. And Lesnar isn't any different. His physical gifts might be helping him out, but its not like he isn't using them properly. He presses the fight and goes for the finish at every opportunity he gets. And it was his LACK of skill and awareness that lost him the fight against Mir. But he improved on that skill and awareness in the rematch and dominated Mir for a TKO

Also the punch he gave Herring to break his orbital bone. The punch landing took skill, but the orbital bone breaking was due to his physical gifts of power. The same goes for the punch that wobbled Couture and then later in that fight another punch that dropped him.

All those physical gifts are fine, but if you don't have the skill to go along with them, you will not be successful in MMA.


kswizzy99 I agree with you on this.
I think he will end up with a very good record and i'm not anti Brock I was one of the first to stick up for him on here.

I just think it is way to soon to start saying that he is better than everyone else.

I think his win over Mir is overrated at the moment because a huge amount of bandwagon jumpers were riding Mir's nuts after the first fight.
No one was talking about Mir until he called out Brock.

Also with Couture Randy was a great champion one of the best ever and a great win for Brock but Randy is 40+ years old and had a 60-70 pound weight disadvantage.

I'm not saying that Lesnar will never be everything that you say he will ..as a matter of fact i'd bet on it if I had too but without further inspection /more fights against fighters of equal or closer size and or strength i'm not ready to just say 'ok lets put him in the hall of fame right now'.

You are missing the point. He has skills, but they are minimal.

His Size, Strength and Athleticism don't complement his skills, they overcompensate for the lack of skills he has

No it's not. Being Big and Athletic like Brock can't be taught and therefore it's not a skill it's more or less a gift.

Just like height and reach. Can you teach someone how to be tall and have long arms? No. So it's not a skill.

i see your point. brock was born to be a big man, so that is a bit of a gift. however, he has great wrestling skills, which is something he learned and got good at.

look at the tallest basketball player, he has a great advantage......he was born to be tall and didnt work out to get that way. so because he is tall he has an advantage over others.

brock is huge and strong and that is his advantage, he worked out a lot and got huge but obviously took roids along the way to get like that. no one gets that big without something snythetic. which in my book is cheating.

who has accomplished more..........no one that i can think of. he has great wrestling and he strong as hell but that is it imo.

i think mir would have picked him apart had the fight been a boxing match or bjj match. mir is more well rounded fighter

You are missing the point. He has skills, but they are minimal.

His Size, Strength and Athleticism don't complement his skills, they overcompensate for the lack of skills he has

did brock not drop Mir, Hearing and Couture with punches. if thats not skill than I don't know what is.

Correct me if Im wrong, but didnt Randy Coulture win the UFC title in only his 4th fight? Same as Brock.

Correct me if Im wrong, but didnt Randy Coulture win the UFC title in only his 4th fight? Same as Brock.

yes he did. but thats besides the point. its the 5 names and level of fighters on their resumes.

Couture's first 5 fights: Maurice Smith(for the HW title), Vitor Belfort, Steven Graham, Tony Halme, Enson Inoue(lost)

Lesnar destroys that.

A better question is who has been given a chance to fight into contention so quickly?

Carwin would have destroyed everyone that Lesnar has beaten in a more dramatic fashion.

A better question is who has been given a chance to fight into contention so quickly?

Carwin would have destroyed everyone that Lesnar has beaten in a more dramatic fashion.

Carwin is good, but not that good. the only good fighter Carwin has fought so far is Gonzaga. Couture, Mir and hearing are all better than him.

Not to say Carwin wouldn't win, but he wouldn't walk through those guys like lesnar did. Lesnar is 285 with more strength and speed for his size. Carwin is 265 and doesn't have unusual speed or strength for his size. and brock is also 10 times the wrestler Carwin is. Lesnar would beat carwin IMO.

Carwin is good, but not that good. the only good fighter Carwin has fought so far is Gonzaga. Couture, Mir and hearing are all better than him.

Not to say Carwin wouldn't win, but he wouldn't walk through those guys like lesnar did. Lesnar is 285 with more strength and speed for his size. Carwin is 265 and doesn't have unusual speed or strength for his size. and brock is also 10 times the wrestler Carwin is. Lesnar would beat carwin IMO.

You really are forgetting that Carwin is the first real one hit knockout threat in the UFC Heavyweight division since.. Forever. Carwin does not need space to get rid of anyone and everyone, like it or not, should be able to realize Lesnar's extreme lack of head movement. He has been in the cage with fighters who are not noted for knocking folks out, with the exception of Herring, who was once known for having legitimate power, but hasn't knocked anyone out since Gary Goodridge and that was quite a while ago. Please explain to me how Lesnar is going to defeat Carwin.

You really are forgetting that Carwin is the first real one hit knockout threat in the UFC Heavyweight division since.. Forever. Carwin does not need space to get rid of anyone and everyone, like it or not, should be able to realize Lesnar's extreme lack of head movement. He has been in the cage with fighters who are not noted for knocking folks out, with the exception of Herring, who was once known for having legitimate power, but hasn't knocked anyone out since Gary Goodridge and that was quite a while ago. Please explain to me how Lesnar is going to defeat Carwin.

3 words: GROUND AND POUND

btw, going back to your previous post where you said "who has been given a chance to fight into contention so quickly?"

all I have to say is, couture would be 0-5 if he fought the same level of competition in the first 5 fights of his career.

3 words: GROUND AND POUND

btw, going back to your previous post where you said "who has been given a chance to fight into contention so quickly?"

all I have to say is, couture would be 0-5 if he fought the same level of competition in the first 5 fights of his career.

True that. As much as i hate to say it, at the end of the day Brock has came out of no mans land and is crushing his opponents. To say he has no skills is absolute nonsense. However i dont feel hes been tested by the best opposisition as of yet, i like to see how he fairs against guys such as Carwin, Kongo, Nog.

3 words: GROUND AND POUND

btw, going back to your previous post where you said "who has been given a chance to fight into contention so quickly?"

all I have to say is, couture would be 0-5 if he fought the same level of competition in the first 5 fights of his career.

yeah, that would be the only way that brock will beat anyone for a few years till he gains some skill in other areas.

i would be willing to bet brock wont submit anyone in his next 10 fights. he will win or lose via ko,tko, decision. his wrestlingand strength are too much for anyone at this point.

yes he did. but thats besides the point. its the 5 names and level of fighters on their resumes.

Couture's first 5 fights: Maurice Smith(for the HW title), Vitor Belfort, Steven Graham, Tony Halme, Enson Inoue(lost)

Lesnar destroys that.

Yea he sure does. He's the King for a reason.

True that. As much as i hate to say it, at the end of the day Brock has came out of no mans land and is crushing his opponents. To say he has no skills is absolute nonsense. However i dont feel hes been tested by the best opposisition as of yet, i like to see how he fairs against guys such as Carwin, Kongo, Nog.Exactly. If Brock had never signed with the WWE, he would get WAY more respect than he is getting right now. It's sad that ppl can't make the simple process of separating brock from his WWE days and see that he is an actual legit force that will dominate the MMA world for years to come.

yeah, that would be the only way that brock will beat anyone for a few years till he gains some skill in other areas.

i would be willing to bet brock wont submit anyone in his next 10 fights. he will win or lose via ko,tko, decision. his wrestling and strength are too much for anyone at this point.once again, he wobbled Couture I think in the 1st round, and then knocked him out in the 2nd round. that isn't ground and pound. oh and he also dropped Herring and Mir with punches so he is more than just ground and pound. I just think he'll beat Carwin with that strategy. And it isn't all impossible for him to ko Carwin because Gonzaga rocked Carwin pretty good and IMO Lesnar has more punching power than him.

He has beaten Shot fighters. yes, Mir is a shot fighter on a come back trail.

Mir (improved in his last few fights, but he is not the Mir of old)
Mir beats an over the hill and past his prime fighter in Nog.

Crazy Horse (No where near the fighter he was when he was competing at Pride)

Randy is a great champion and has done a lot for the sport and I am a big fan. but the Randy Lesnar fought was not the Randy of old.

So yes, Lesnar won the belt, but he has yet to fight anyone in their prime. I want him to fight someone like Carwin or Velasquez. The new TUF show should also bring in some good talent that will push Brock.

P.S> I like Brock and hope he does well in the UFC, but I think the fights he has had have been very well "picked" out fights.

He has beaten Shot fighters. yes, Mir is a shot fighter on a come back trail.

Mir (improved in his last few fights, but he is not the Mir of old)
Mir beats an over the hill and past his prime fighter in Nog.

Crazy Horse (No where near the fighter he was when he was competing at Pride)

Randy is a great champion and has done a lot for the sport and I am a big fan. but the Randy Lesnar fought was not the Randy of old.

So yes, Lesnar won the belt, but he has yet to fight anyone in their prime. I want him to fight someone like Carwin or Velasquez. The new TUF show should also bring in some good talent that will push Brock.

P.S> I like Brock and hope he does well in the UFC, but I think the fights he has had have been very well "picked" out fights.

lol, another email that lacks perspective. ok, once AGAIN, brock is still relatively a rookie in this sport.

oh and saying that his opposition has been "well picked" is a stupid statement because he basically fought the top 2 ranked UFC heavyweights so that is just ignorant.

Brock is a rookie and the fighters he has fought just to practice his craft and get introduced into this sport are WAY beyond what anyone has ever done and will probably ever do regardless of whether they are shot or not. Lesnar has already grown a great deal from fight to fight, and he will continue to grow for the next couple of years.

Brock could possibly be hitting his prime in 4-5 years which is a scary thought.

lol, another email that lacks perspective. ok, once AGAIN, brock is still relatively a rookie in this sport.

oh and saying that his opposition has been "well picked" is a stupid statement because he basically fought the top 2 ranked UFC heavyweights so that is just ignorant.

Brock is a rookie and the fighters he has fought just to practice his craft and get introduced into this sport are WAY beyond what anyone has ever done and will probably ever do regardless of whether they are shot or not. Lesnar has already grown a great deal from fight to fight, and he will continue to grow for the next couple of years.

Brock could possibly be hitting his prime in 4-5 years which is a scary thought.


i think he will hit his prime sooner than that....and it will be short lived because in my opinion, the **** he has done to his body will begin to take toll.

He has beaten Shot fighters. yes, Mir is a shot fighter on a come back trail.

Mir (improved in his last few fights, but he is not the Mir of old)

oh btw, the version of Mir in the last fight was the BEST version of Mir. even better than the one that won the UFC title before his bike accident. He was much quicker and his muay thai and overall strikes were much better than they've EVER been.

Lesnar made him look bad but you will see in Mir's next fight. Mark my words, who ever Mir fights next is gonna be brutally dominated.

To be fair to other fighters..... most of them were not given a title shot after winning ONE fight in the UFC like Brock did. That happened during the 90s when they were fewer fighters.

I like Lesnar but the question is. Who has been given an opportunity so quickly to accomplish that much in so little time?

You are missing the point. He has skills, but they are minimal.

His Size, Strength and Athleticism don't complement his skills, they overcompensate for the lack of skills he has

im pretty sure you dont become NCAA division 1 champ with "minimal" skills....
If anything he has more credentials skill wise then 90% of the competition.

im pretty sure you dont become NCAA division 1 champ with "minimal" skills....
If anything he has more credentials skill wise then 90% of the competition.

Exactly, and he wasn't 280lbs when he won it either.
90% is much closer than 100% too, maybe even high 90's but not 100%.

lol, another email that lacks perspective. ok, once AGAIN, brock is still relatively a rookie in this sport.

oh and saying that his opposition has been "well picked" is a stupid statement because he basically fought the top 2 ranked UFC heavyweights so that is just ignorant.

Brock is a rookie and the fighters he has fought just to practice his craft and get introduced into this sport are WAY beyond what anyone has ever done and will probably ever do regardless of whether they are shot or not. Lesnar has already grown a great deal from fight to fight, and he will continue to grow for the next couple of years.

Brock could possibly be hitting his prime in 4-5 years which is a scary thought.

You have the Right to your Wrong opinion.

yeah, that would be the only way that brock will beat anyone for a few years till he gains some skill in other areas.

i would be willing to bet brock wont submit anyone in his next 10 fights. he will win or lose via ko,tko, decision. his wrestlingand strength are too much for anyone at this point.

What's the problem ?

You win, in the most effective way possible. As the addage goes ' If it ain't broke then don't try to fix it.'


He's not a submission fighter. End of story, his strategy is simple - take you down, and beat you up.



He has beaten Shot fighters. yes, Mir is a shot fighter on a come back trail.

Mir (improved in his last few fights, but he is not the Mir of old)
Mir beats an over the hill and past his prime fighter in Nog.

Crazy Horse (No where near the fighter he was when he was competing at Pride)

Randy is a great champion and has done a lot for the sport and I am a big fan. but the Randy Lesnar fought was not the Randy of old.

So yes, Lesnar won the belt, but he has yet to fight anyone in their prime. I want him to fight someone like Carwin or Velasquez. The new TUF show should also bring in some good talent that will push Brock.

P.S> I like Brock and hope he does well in the UFC, but I think the fights he has had have been very well "picked" out fights.

Mir is hardly a shot fighter, and I hate that people use that lame excuse whenever said fighter isn't victorious.

Mir stated himself several times that he was in great shape, and it was obvious that physically, he was in great shape, and he seemed to be prepared mentally as well.

All of the prime vs shot business is useless, IMO. You fight the fighter that's standing in front of you, regardless of what state of his career you or I believe they are in.



To those who think Brock is a talentless mound of muslces, you need to look further than his stint as an entertainer. You don't get an 106-4 record as a D1 wrestler simply by being strong.

What's the problem ?

You win, in the most effective way possible. As the addage goes ' If it ain't broke then don't try to fix it.'


He's not a submission fighter. End of story, his strategy is simple - take you down, and beat you up.

Mir is hardly a shot fighter, and I hate that people use that lame excuse whenever said fighter isn't victorious.

Mir stated himself several times that he was in great shape, and it was obvious that physically, he was in great shape, and he seemed to be prepared mentally as well.

All of the prime vs shot business is useless, IMO. You fight the fighter that's standing in front of you, regardless of what state of his career you or I believe they are in.



To those who think Brock is a talentless mound of muslces, you need to look further than his stint as an entertainer. You don't get an 106-4 record as a D1 wrestler simply by being strong.

i wasnt aware there was a problem. this is a forum in which people voice their opinions.

i understand you win in the most effective way possible which for brock is ground and pound.

i realize he isnt a submission fighter........thats obvious

my point was and is that brock isnt as well rounded as most fighters including mir.

yeah his strategy is simple and isnt always entertaining

for all the Lesnar haters in this forum, who has ever in the history of MMA accomplished more than Lesnar in their first 5 fights? Seriously, I want names.

the general perception seems to be that Lesnar is a WWE fake wrestler who has a very late start in mma and is currently just relying on his physicality rather than skill to win fights and that won't last long. well that perception couldn't be more wrong. First, Lesnar is a REAL wrestler just like Couture, Hughes, Henderson and countless other successful mma fighters, and Lesnar is arguably a better wrestler than all of them.

Sure Lesnar got a late start in MMA but so do a lot of MMA fighters. Even Couture only started in MMA at 33 years old while Lesnar started at 30 and there are things (like punches and knees) that lesnar is doing now that Couture still isn't good at.

So my point is this: Lesnar has only just skinned the surface of his MMA career. There is still SO MUCH for him to learn even though what he's learned so far has made him one of the top 2-3 heavyweights in the world. He might suffer another loss or 2 along the way but even Randy Couture is 16-9, with a couple of those loses coming to LHW fighters. But nevertheless, I know Lesnar is gonna have one of the best(if not the best) mma careers of all-time when its all said and done.

anderson silva

anderson silva

ummmm what?

Silva lost his debut fight against a nobody. and then he won his next 4 fights against 4 nobodies. I think you misunderstood the question.

What's the problem ?

You win, in the most effective way possible. As the addage goes ' If it ain't broke then don't try to fix it.'


He's not a submission fighter. End of story, his strategy is simple - take you down, and beat you up.





Mir is hardly a shot fighter, and I hate that people use that lame excuse whenever said fighter isn't victorious.

Mir stated himself several times that he was in great shape, and it was obvious that physically, he was in great shape, and he seemed to be prepared mentally as well.

All of the prime vs shot business is useless, IMO. You fight the fighter that's standing in front of you, regardless of what state of his career you or I believe they are in.



To those who think Brock is a talentless mound of muslces, you need to look further than his stint as an entertainer. You don't get an 106-4 record as a D1 wrestler simply by being strong.

Roy Jones says he's in the best shape of his life also.
The simple fact is Mir hasn't been the same since the crash.
He's much better than he has been but he's not the same.

idk, but in the ufc, lyoto machita has a much better resume than anyone else at this stage in his career.....