View Full Version : Muhammed Ali And Joe Louis: Who's The Greatest Heavyweight?


Ziggy Stardust
07-17-2009, 03:14 PM
It's no secret here in Boxing History that I openly admire Joe Louis. That being said, I have always consistantly ranked him number 2 at Heavyweight behind Muhammed Ali. I've always felt that a prime Ali's unreal foot and handspeed made him the runaway favorite for the title. Over the past couple of years I've had discussions with people who place Louis at number 1; which puts me in the uncomfortable position of arguing against my own personal favorite. So! I'd like the Boxing History section's best minds to weigh in on the subject with their best arguments for one fighter or the other. If you back Ali, tell me how I'm right in this argument. If you back Louis, do your best to change my mind on the subject.

I want this to be a serious discussion for the posters I know are some of best on Boxing Scene. To that end, certain "trolls" that have been making the rounds here lately have been barred from this thread. As I said, I'd like to see a serious and thoughtful discussion not a juvenile trolling party; and if the trolls are thinking of making alts to get in on this thread their alts will be barred too.

Poet

Stoppage
07-17-2009, 03:32 PM
I don't know if you would consider me as one of the great minds on this forum but I do know a lot about boxing history. This would be a toss-up for either fighter since they both have advantages over the other.

While Ali had a great chin, we shouldn't forget that he's been knocked down a few times including nearly getting counted out in the first Henry Cooper fight. Everyone knows Joe Louis was one of, if not the, best punchers pound for pound and he definitely hit harder and more accurate than Henry Cooper. So a Louis knockout is possible.

We also shouldn't forget how quick Ali was. Great footwork and longer reach would keep Louis at bay most of the time, including his lightning-quick jab.

Overall, I think Ali would be the favorite in this fight to win by decision but don't be too surprised if Louis wins by a knockout. If Louis gets Ali at the right moment, it could be all over.

mickey malone
07-17-2009, 03:49 PM
It's no secret here in Boxing History that I openly admire Joe Louis. That being said, I have always consistantly ranked him number 2 at Heavyweight behind Muhammed Ali. I've always felt that a prime Ali's unreal foot and handspeed made him the runaway favorite for the title. Over the past couple of years I've had discussions with people who place Louis at number 1; which puts me in the uncomfortable position of arguing against my own personal favorite. So! I'd like the Boxing History section's best minds to weigh in on the subject with their best arguments for one fighter or the other. If you back Ali, tell me how I'm right in this argument. If you back Louis, do your best to change my mind on the subject.

I want this to be a serious discussion for the posters I know are some of best on Boxing Scene. To that end, certain "trolls" that have been making the rounds here lately have been barred from this thread. As I said, I'd like to see a serious and thoughtful discussion not a juvenile trolling party; and if the trolls are thinking of making alts to get in on this thread their alts will be barred too.

Poet
This is the oldest question in boxing! As you're well aware, you & I are only about 50/50 on HW opinions & where they should be rated.. Same again I'm afraid old boy... If I'd wrote your thread, It'd be very similar, except a hairs breath in Louis's favor.. Gonna be a difficult debate lol...Louis was basically more dominant throughout his era, but I also say, that there were a better head of competition in Ali's day, so that's kind of even..
Ali had the better foot/handspeed & Louis had the better punch in both hands.. so that's even.. Both men had equally big hearts to.. .Ali's chin was better, but had he EVER fought ANYONE with Louis's power speed combo..? I'd say with the exception of Frazier, NO, he hadn't.. Ali was particularly good at beating hard punching slow guys (ie: Liston & Foreman) But, not as good as at beating good/fast punchers (ie:Frazier & Norton).. With Louis, it didn't really matter.. All 25 of em, went the same way, & there were a few different styles thrown into the mix as well.. Louis's wins were less controversial to.. They were more cut & dried.. Another reason, would be longevity to the throne.. Although, some of Ali's prime years were taken away from him (don't want to get into NAM), unfortunately, this kinda divides the two, & once again goes against Ali...
All said & done.... Prime Ali (215 est) Vs Prime Louis (197est) I'd say Ali takes the decision... But any other time it's Louis by late TKO.. That's how close it is my friend.... Jab 4 Jab on chapter 2 lol..

Ziggy Stardust
07-17-2009, 04:24 PM
As you're well aware, you & I are only about 50/50 on HW opinions & where they should be rated.. Same again I'm afraid old boy... If I'd wrote your thread, It'd be virtually the same, except a hairs breath in Louis's favor.. Gonna be a difficult debate lol....

Difficult debates are cool! I have perfect confidence in the regular posters in this section: Easily some of the most knowledgeable boxing minds in the world as I see it. Thoughtful debate among intelligent adults is great......I just kept the juvenile trolls out to ensure it WOULD be a thoughtful debate and not a smear fest.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
07-17-2009, 04:26 PM
I don't know if you would consider me as one of the great minds on this forum but I do know a lot about boxing history. This would be a toss-up for either fighter since they both have advantages over the other.

While Ali had a great chin, we shouldn't forget that he's been knocked down a few times including nearly getting counted out in the first Henry Cooper fight. Everyone knows Joe Louis was one of, if not the, best punchers pound for pound and he definitely hit harder and more accurate than Henry Cooper. So a Louis knockout is possible.

We also shouldn't forget how quick Ali was. Great footwork and longer reach would keep Louis at bay most of the time, including his lightning-quick jab.

Overall, I think Ali would be the favorite in this fight to win by decision but don't be too surprised if Louis wins by a knockout. If Louis gets Ali at the right moment, it could be all over.

I see you have fewer than a hundred posts but you are already off to a great start. I think you'll make a fine addition to the Boxing History section! :boxing:

Poet

mickey malone
07-17-2009, 04:56 PM
Difficult debates are cool! I have perfect confidence in the regular posters in this section: Easily some of the most knowledgeable boxing minds in the world as I see it. Thoughtful debate among intelligent adults is great......I just kept the juvenile trolls out to ensure it WOULD be a thoughtful debate and not a smear fest.

Poet
looool.... 'Smear fest'!

Sugarj
07-17-2009, 05:57 PM
Two great heavyweights. I've always favoured a peak Ali to win by decision, I doubt he'd stop him but Joe always had problems with jab and move types.

Tommy Farr ran Louis quite close with a jab and move style, Billy Conn's two handed attacks show how easy Louis was to hit with fast combinations from a slick mover. I've also fancied that Walcott was unlucky to lose their first match (even though Louis was post prime the style was the factor for me) and Walcott was clearly outboxing Louis before the champ found the knockout in the second fight.

We all know that Ali was taller, heavier, faster in hand and foot, had a longer reach, a better ability to absorb a punch and arguably a higher workrate than any of these guys. Simple answer really.

Ali faced some very fast guys Mickey. Floyd Patterson was fast handed even in 1972 (experts put his punches through a synchroniser and found that his left was even faster than Ali's at one point in time), Bob Foster had lightening fast fists even though he was too small to be a heavy, Jimmy Ellis had good hand and foot speed, Cleveland Williams had fast hands and barely even managed to land on a peak Ali, Jimmy Young had good handspeed too, Joe Bugner's too. I think all these guys were faster than Norton and Frazier (not better though!) and some may well have had faster hands than Louis too.

I really cant see Louis stopping a peak Ali either. No one could absorb a punch better and he was so hard to hit anyway. He was a 21 year old undeveloped kid when he fought Cooper the first time, Louis may have had a good chance with the youngster Clay but Ali was much improved in late 66/67.

This is not to say that Ali was the better champion, just that I think he would have beaten Louis by decision. Its easy to forget the mental factor too, Ali would have taunted, mocked and wound up Joe up to and throughout the fight, he might have got Joe off his gameplan.

Ŗringer
07-17-2009, 06:03 PM
Are we talking in a head to head matchup, or overall who was the greater Heavyweight?

The title of the thread implies it's a debate over who is the greatest Heavyweight, but some of the responses thus far have been in regard to a head to head matchup.

Ziggy Stardust
07-17-2009, 06:08 PM
Are we talking in a head to head matchup, or overall who was the greater Heavyweight?

The title of the thread implies it's a debate over who is the greatest Heavyweight, but some of the responses thus far have been in regard to a head to head matchup.

I'm talking over-all but the head-to-head stuff is interesting too.

Poet

Ŗringer
07-17-2009, 06:23 PM
Alright then ; I'll do my best on both.

Overall

Overall I rank Louis as the Greatest Heavyweight of All Time, Ali gets my #2 spot, and I'll tell you why I peg Louis for #1......

Louis was a much more dominant Heavyweight Champion than Ali was. Dominant to the point that even some of his toughest challengers were labelled "bums" by comparison during Louis' title reign, and the "bum of the month club" stigma.

While I'd peg the competition in Ali's era to be slightly thougher than the competition during Louis' era ; it is by no means an easy feat to reign on top as long as Louis did and be that dominant, regardless of the era.

His historical title reign is the stuff of legend, and something we'll likely never see duplicated ever again.

For that, and the domination of his opponets during his run at the top ; I peg Louis as my All Time #1 Great Heavyweight.

Head To Head

Head to head is a different story ; I like Ali in a head to head matchup due to his cat like reflexes, incredible speed and stamina, and his tremendous ability to fight through adversity.

While it's true that neither of them have seen a fighter quite like the other ; I think Ali would be the one in this matchup who would adapt to Louis, more so than Louis would be able to adapt to Ali.

I think Ali's incredible reach and slashing jab would keep Louis on the defensive and looking for opportunities.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Louis land a bomb at some point in the fight, and put Ali on the deck.

But Ali would did what he'd always done when he was knocked down ; he'd get up, recover from the blow, and dig his way back into the fight off of his jab.

The only way I can see Louis defeating Ali in a head to head, is if we're talking a prime Louis vs. a green Clay. He may be able to bomb out a young Cassius Clay.

But a prime Muhammad Ali is a different story altogether.

Ziggy Stardust
07-17-2009, 06:34 PM
Alright then ; I'll do my best on both.

Overall

Overall I rank Louis as the Greatest Heavyweight of All Time, Ali gets my #2 spot, and I'll tell you why I peg Louis for #1......

Louis was a much more dominant Heavyweight Champion than Ali was. Dominant to the point that even some of his toughest challengers were labelled "bums" by comparison during Louis' title reign, and the "bum of the month club" stigma.

While I'd peg the competition in Ali's era to be slightly thougher than the competition during Louis' era ; it is by no means an easy feat to reign on top as long as Louis did and be that dominant, regardless of the era.

His historical title reign is the stuff of legend, and something we'll likely never see duplicated ever again.

For that, and the domination of his opponets during his run at the top ; I peg Louis as my All Time #1 Great Heavyweight.

Head To Head

Head to head is a different story ; I like Ali in a head to head matchup due to his cat like reflexes, incredible speed and stamina, and his tremendous ability to fight through adversity.

While it's true that neither of them have seen a fighter quite like the other ; I think Ali would be the one in this matchup who would adapt to Louis, more so than Louis would be able to adapt to Ali.

I think Ali's incredible reach and slashing jab would keep Louis on the defensive and looking for opportunities.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Louis land a bomb at some point in the fight, and put Ali on the deck.

But Ali would did what he'd always done when he was knocked down ; he'd get up, recover from the blow, and dig his way back into the fight off of his jab.

The only way I can see Louis defeating Ali in a head to head, is if we're talking a prime Louis vs. a green Clay. He may be able to bomb out a young Cassius Clay.

But a prime Muhammad Ali is a different story altogether.

Excellent as always Bringer!

Poet

boxingbuff
07-17-2009, 06:52 PM
Styles make fights,and to make a long story short, Ali easily wins a unanimous 15 round decision.

Styles my man,styles.

Ziggy Stardust
07-17-2009, 08:36 PM
Styles make fights,and to make a long story short, Ali easily wins a unanimous 15 round decision.

Styles my man,styles.

The impact of styles is somewhat overblown. While in certain cases, such as short-armed pressure fighters against George Foreman or Ken Norton against slick boxers, the stylistic matchup is determinative; in most cases the better fighter wins regardless of the style matchup.

Poet

Ŗringer
07-17-2009, 08:48 PM
The impact of styles is somewhat overblown. While in certain cases, such as short-armed pressure fighters against George Foreman or Ken Norton against slick boxers, the stylistic matchup is determinative; in most cases the better fighter wins regardless of the style matchup.

Poet

I've been saying that for quite a while myself.

It's just one of those worn out cliche' sayings that almost everybody in NSB says, and then some other guy comes in and quotes him and says "totally bro! styles totally make fights! like...yeah!....you know?". :lol1:

Every once in a while it proves itself to be true all over again, but the vast majority of the time the better fighter wins regardless of the style.

Ziggy Stardust
07-17-2009, 09:06 PM
I've been saying that for quite a while myself.

It's just one of those worn out cliche' sayings that almost everybody in NSB says, and then some other guy comes in and quotes him and says "totally bro! styles totally make fights! like...yeah!....you know?". :lol1:

Every once in a while it proves itself to be true all over again, but the vast majority of the time the better fighter wins regardless of the style.

It got traction because the boxing talking heads on HBO, Showtime, and ESPN chant it like a mantra. Like most things they say it's an over-simplification and they spout it because they figure your typical boxing fan is too stupid to understand what's going on.....Then again, considering what gets posted in NSB everyday, they may have a point :D

Poet

bojangles1987
07-17-2009, 10:30 PM
Styles come into play as far as who gives a fighter a good fight more than it does whether they can beat someone.

In an Ali-Louis fight I don't think we ever saw Louis fight someone comparable to Ali, whereas Ali has fought big punchers aplenty. I think Ali would definitely win a comfortable decision here, with the chance Louis puts him on the deck with a good punch.

GJC
07-17-2009, 10:37 PM
Maybe alone is this but I always think of Louis as a great thrower of combinations rather than a one shot KO specialist. Looking at Ali's fights and I think I have pretty much seen them I can't really remember him being hit by a 3 punch combination. One shot which put him down and he bounces up but cannot remember him being hit by a combination he was so good at smothering and moving away. So not sure (if to my mind) Louis biggest weapon is going to work. Walcott and Conn gave Louis problems, so got to go with Ali.
The weird thing is i'd have Louis beating Marciano 6 or 7 fights out of 10 but i'd fancy Marciano to have more success than Louis against Ali. Probably on my own in that theory but it would be dull if we all thought the same I guess.

mickey malone
07-18-2009, 08:54 AM
Maybe alone is this but I always think of Louis as a great thrower of combinations rather than a one shot KO specialist. Looking at Ali's fights and I think I have pretty much seen them I can't really remember him being hit by a 3 punch combination. One shot which put him down and he bounces up but cannot remember him being hit by a combination he was so good at smothering and moving away. So not sure (if to my mind) Louis biggest weapon is going to work. Walcott and Conn gave Louis problems, so got to go with Ali.
The weird thing is i'd have Louis beating Marciano 6 or 7 fights out of 10 but i'd fancy Marciano to have more success than Louis against Ali. Probably on my own in that theory but it would be dull if we all thought the same I guess.
50/50... Like the comment on 3 punch combo's.. Ali., by his own admission was weak on defense.. Against Foreman, Lyle, Shavers & Liston he could narrowly afford to be.. Frazier & Norton (who had more handspeed) gave him massive problems, & had Cooper not been of a raw bone complexion, would'a done the same..
Now this was Louis's game... Any further thoughts??

0Rooster4Life0
07-18-2009, 09:13 AM
Overall Who was the Greatest?

I favour Joe Louis, No one in History Dominated The Heavyweight Division as did Joe Louis, He held the title for 11 Years and 9 months i beleave, Ali held The title 3 times adding up to 7 Years and 6 Months, Bringer Touched On it Before, Joe Louis Brushed away his Opponents with ease, People Labelling Top contenders as "Bums".


When I see Joe Louis fight, Its like art, His punchers are picture perfect, Throwing Combinations with fantasic Power and Accuracy. His punching style was second to none.


ROOSTER

mickey malone
07-18-2009, 09:37 AM
Overall Who was the Greatest?

I favour Joe Louis, No one in History Dominated The Heavyweight Division as did Joe Louis, He held the title for 11 Years and 9 months i beleave, Ali held The title 3 times adding up to 7 Years and 6 Months, Bringer Touched On it Before, Joe Louis Brushed away his Opponents with ease, People Labelling Top contenders as "Bums".


When I see Joe Louis fight, Its like art, His punchers are picture perfect, Throwing Combinations with fantasic Power and Accuracy. His punching style was second to none.


ROOSTER
Well put Rooster!

them_apples
07-18-2009, 09:49 AM
50/50... Like the comment on 3 punch combo's.. Ali., by his own admission was weak on defense.. Against Foreman, Lyle, Shavers & Liston he could narrowly afford to be.. Frazier & Norton (who had more handspeed) gave him massive problems, & had Cooper not been of a raw bone complexion, would'a done the same..
Now this was Louis's game... Any further thoughts??

in his comeback he got hit more, in his prime he really didn't get hit..other then that left hook from Cooper and I think Doug Jones. Louis could perhaps knock him down, but not out.

keep in mind he was never stopped, not even by huge punchers. Louis isn't going to stop him, and he's not going to win a decision either.

I'm actually going to pick Ali by a late round KO. or a Ud.

CRESCENDOPOWER
07-18-2009, 09:58 AM
In my opinion this is the hardest question to answer in all of sports. The people that came before me, and taught me everything about the history of boxing say Louis. On the other hand, I would like to think that my eyes, and personal opinion have some weight. Iím certain that anyone who has paid attention to boxing at all can see how great Aliís resume actually was. My forgiveness of either one of these gentlemen at number one is easily granted.:boxing:

fight_professor
07-18-2009, 10:00 AM
I don't know if you would consider me as one of the great minds on this forum but I do know a lot about boxing history. This would be a toss-up for either fighter since they both have advantages over the other.

While Ali had a great chin, we shouldn't forget that he's been knocked down a few times including nearly getting counted out in the first Henry Cooper fight. Everyone knows Joe Louis was one of, if not the, best punchers pound for pound and he definitely hit harder and more accurate than Henry Cooper. So a Louis knockout is possible.

We also shouldn't forget how quick Ali was. Great footwork and longer reach would keep Louis at bay most of the time, including his lightning-quick jab.

Overall, I think Ali would be the favorite in this fight to win by decision but don't be too surprised if Louis wins by a knockout. If Louis gets Ali at the right moment, it could be all over.

Louis was a hard hitter, true. But Ali fought Liston, Foreman, Shavers and Ron Lyle without being KO'd. He rose from a Frazier knockdown on 3. No Joe Louis wasnt going to knock Ali out.

Ali was too fast, had too much reach and would just stay outside. Flat footed Joue Louis with footspeed comparable to a sumo would be a sitting target, that's keeping it real.

All the power and combination hitting in the world means nothing if you cant land on a guy. Better chin, better movement, better speed, longer reach...

Ali wins a lopsided UD or scores a late stoppage.

[Holmes would beat Louis too]. :boxing:

mickey malone
07-18-2009, 03:24 PM
in his comeback he got hit more, in his prime he really didn't get hit..other then that left hook from Cooper and I think Doug Jones. Louis could perhaps knock him down, but not out.

keep in mind he was never stopped, not even by huge punchers. Louis isn't going to stop him, and he's not going to win a decision either.

I'm actually going to pick Ali by a late round KO. or a Ud.
Yep.... I'd be swayed towards Clay in a match up with Louis, & maybe the 1st 2 years as Ali, but then Louis's resume kinda decides it.. I'd say any fight after the age of 30, Ali loses, & it is a hairs breath...

Sugarj
07-18-2009, 09:05 PM
You may be right there Mickey. Much as I'd still slightly lean towards Ali upto 1975 I wouldn't want to see him try to rope a dope Louis, Joe was too fast and precise against stationary targets. He wouldn't blow himself out as Foreman did either.

fight_professor
07-18-2009, 10:40 PM
This is primes here. Ali UD's Joe Louis, maybe late stoppage.

sleazyfellow
07-19-2009, 02:01 AM
in his comeback he got hit more, in his prime he really didn't get hit..other then that left hook from Cooper and I think Doug Jones. Louis could perhaps knock him down, but not out.

keep in mind he was never stopped, not even by huge punchers. Louis isn't going to stop him, and he's not going to win a decision either.

I'm actually going to pick Ali by a late round KO. or a Ud.

Ali was stopped by holmes, but nobody ever considers that fight, Ali was way past it.

Pre 70s Ali wins by UD or late stoppage.

Post 70s Ali still has a chance, but rope a dope wouldnt work on Louis, and even though Louis is the best puncher overall of all time, he couldnt KO Ali thats for sure. Its a toss up UD 60/40 in Alis favor.

the hobbit
07-20-2009, 03:02 AM
louis' power was in his inside game, which ali would eliminate and win 9 out of 10.

Greatwhitehope
07-20-2009, 04:56 AM
Ali achieved so much against such quality opposition and the case can be made that he missed quite a bit of his prime due to his license being revoked, as the opening post mentioned his superior hand speed and footwork would likely prove too much for Louis.

Spartacus Sully
07-20-2009, 10:17 AM
I think louis has enough acuracy to at least draw with ali if it goes the distance. but i really think that joes gonna catch ali with one good one and set him down and out.

thats all i can see i really dont think louis is going to win if it goes the distance against ali but i dont think ali can escape enough damage to pull off the win either

ali knocking out louis?
or
louis knocking out ali?

im gonna opt for louis knocking out ali if it dosent go the distance, and i would really like to think it wouldnt.

Sugarj
07-20-2009, 10:33 AM
Hi Ylem, Foreman hit Ali with his hardest punches (one of which Ali admitted sent off bells in his head!), Shavers hit him with his hardest punch in round two, a real monster right hand, Liston hit him hard too and guess what? Not one of them even had him so much as down.

I rate Louis as a hard puncher, but not as hard as these guys! So how is Louis going to KO Ali with 'one good one'. I dont know!!!!!

Spartacus Sully
07-20-2009, 10:57 AM
Hello

I just rate joe as a harder puncher.

Spartacus Sully
07-20-2009, 10:59 AM
Diffrent kind of punchers as well like hypothetically forman could hit a bag and have it hit the ceilling louis could hit a bag and blow the sand out the back

mickey malone
07-20-2009, 11:18 AM
Hi Ylem, Foreman hit Ali with his hardest punches (one of which Ali admitted sent off bells in his head!), Shavers hit him with his hardest punch in round two, a real monster right hand, Liston hit him hard too and guess what? Not one of them even had him so much as down.

I rate Louis as a hard puncher, but not as hard as these guys! So how is Louis going to KO Ali with 'one good one'. I dont know!!!!!
It'd have to be a combination, & it would have to be late in the fight.. Ali maybe getting stopped on his feet.. Other scenarios favor Ali.. In all honesty, it's a 50/50 fight, & I only favor Louis on resume, plus he'd hit more often than Foreman, more precisely, & harder than Frazier.. Ali would really have his work cut out in this one..

mickey malone
07-20-2009, 11:20 AM
Diffrent kind of punchers as well like hypothetically forman could hit a bag and have it hit the ceilling louis could hit a bag and blow the sand out the back
Fantastic description!

Elemental Fist
07-20-2009, 11:55 AM
I would consider Ali to be the greatest, he was light on his feet, a good chin and good punching power. In his prime he could talk the talk and walk the walk.

As for head to head however, strategy is an important aspect in any fight and this would be no different, if Ali could keep his game plan working, he could win but Joe Louis should not be underestimated either especially his KO power, not saying he would definitely KO Ali but Louis' punches are among the greatest in the history of the sport.

Sugarj
07-20-2009, 12:09 PM
Hee hee, interesting analogies on the heavybag front Ylem but I dont think they would have too much grounding on a scientific front. By your own admission you 'rate Joe as a harder puncher' than Foreman, Liston and Shavers and of course our opinions are our own but I think most historians and experts would disagree with you. Granted Joe was faster and more accurate though.

A better chalk and cheese example would be Tyson vs Shavers on a heavy bag. Tyson might burst/rip the bag with his speed/power combination whereas Shavers might rip it down from the ceiling (with power rather than speed). Both punch hard and both would knock you out. But my analogy is more comedic than serious.

That said 'one big one' is too tough an ask of Louis over a guy who quite simply was never knocked out. The only three knockdowns from head punches Ali ever suffered were all left hooks and none kept him down for more than a count of three. Added to this they all occurred three or four years on either side of his peak.

Joe Louis punched hard (and fast. Not Tyson/Patterson fast though) but I'm finding it hard trying to remember a solitary one punch left hook KO out of Louis against anyone with as proven a chin as Ali. Louis was more of a combination puncher than a one punch KO artist and thats how most of his fights ended.

I'd find it easier to agree with Mickey that were Ali to be KO'd or TKO'd it would have to be from a combination, now Louis was good at these. The combinations that finished Conn, Walcott the second time, Baer and Schmelling were art, no two ways about it! But Ali didn't get caught with combos in his peak from even his fastest opponents and Ali is always going to be dancing four or five feet away from Louis who lets face it was no chin down pressure fighter in the mould of Dempsey, Marciano, Foreman or Tyson.

Plus, I hate to bring up the size thing again, but Ali was a size bigger and heavier than Joe and had a telescopic reach of 82 inches, three more reasons for Joe to struggle.

mickey malone
07-20-2009, 12:35 PM
One has to study the fights in which Ali was knocked down.. Jones, Cooper & Frazier.. The fact there was only 3, tells us how darn good he was..
However, all of these KD's happened as Ali dropped his guard & got on his bike..
This was a fault in his defense strategy, & had it not been for the bell, would have lost to Cooper, let alone Louis... I just don't think he'd have gotten away with it...
I'd say Shavers & Foreman hit with more torque (foot/lbs), but Louis with far more velocity (feet per second sqd), but this was with both hands...

Sugarj
07-20-2009, 12:52 PM
Absolutely Mickey! I wouldn't throw the 1962/63 Clay in with a peak Joe Louis and would think twice about the 1971 Ali that lost to Frazier too. That said, Doug Jones never knocked Ali down, it was a guy called Sonny Banks. Ali got straight up and stopped him two rounds later.

The late 66/67 Ali was a sharper tool though.

I like the torque vs velocity angle, I'm into my cars. Foreman would be a Bentley Continental GT 6 litre W12 twin Turbo to Louis's Lithe Ferrari 430 Scuderia.

mickey malone
07-20-2009, 01:29 PM
Absolutely Mickey! I wouldn't throw the 1962/63 Clay in with a peak Joe Louis and would think twice about the 1971 Ali that lost to Frazier too. That said, Doug Jones never knocked Ali down, it was a guy called Sonny Banks. Ali got straight up and stopped him two rounds later.

The late 66/67 Ali was a sharper tool though.

I like the torque vs velocity angle, I'm into my cars. Foreman would be a Bentley Continental GT 6 litre W12 twin Turbo to Louis's Lithe Ferrari 430 Scuderia.
****... Why do I always quote Jones as Banks?.. I've done that before lol... Thanks for the correction.. I'll learn one day...
Yeah.... I did an Engineering apprenticeship when I left school, & I still use the various terminologies from time to time.. Glad you appreciate it..
These days, mines a Yamaha 125.... lol

fight_professor
07-20-2009, 01:58 PM
Malone,

How does Louis beat Ali on resume?

Ali fought the best level of competition in HW History. Not only other legends, but many solid HW in the bracket below that.

mickey malone
07-20-2009, 02:16 PM
Malone,

How does Louis beat Ali on resume?

Ali fought the best level of competition in HW History. Not only other legends, but many solid HW in the bracket below that.
Ali had 2 spells absent.. Louis had 1 spell with more title defenses.. I've already said the confrontation is 50/50, but numericaly Louis has the better resume, period.. Louis also had far more KO's in world title fights or otherwise.. He fought for longer, had less defeats on his record & P4P fought bigger men, far more often.. Does that suffice?

Sugarj
07-20-2009, 02:23 PM
Its arguable definitely, I guess Louis's 12 year title reign, 25 consecutive defenses, his one early loss avenged emphatically, every other close fight was won more emphatically in the rematch. Plus the scalps of six former or future heavyweight champs.

Its very close though, the seventies was a peach of a decade and Ali beat everyone asked of him when at least four years+ past his prime.

mickey malone
07-20-2009, 02:39 PM
Its arguable definitely, I guess Louis's 12 year title reign, 25 consecutive defenses, his one early loss avenged emphatically, every other close fight was won more emphatically in the rematch. Plus the scalps of six former or future heavyweight champs.

Its very close though, the seventies was a peach of a decade and Ali beat everyone asked of him when at least four years+ past his prime.
Emphatically being the key word...

Sugarj
07-20-2009, 04:11 PM
I'd make a dreadful journalist using that bleeding word twice in one sentence, but hell Joe Louis deserved it for what he did to Schmelling, Conn, Godoy, Simon and Walcott in return matches!

fight_professor
07-20-2009, 04:40 PM
The best on Joe Louis's resume are not equal to Liston, Foreman, Frazier.

You cant discount the end of career (EoC) losses of Louis and not cut Ali the same slack in terms of years lost. Had exile not happened, Ali would have held his belt from 63-Frazier 1, that'd be a few more defenses etc.

You are penalizing Ali for something which was not his fault.

TBH, I see some of Ali's B competition taking Joe to hell and back.

So where is this resume better then Ali's exactly?

Look at this:

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=9027&cat=boxer

If bigger = better competition as your logic suggests, I suggest Klit be declared the best.

And in a h-2-h Ali/JL is a shut out. Sorry fam, but that's real talk.

fight_professor
07-20-2009, 04:55 PM
And TBH Louis had a weak jaw. Joe Walcott floored him 3 times in total, which his relatively light fists. Liston, Foreman and Frazier would KO Joe Louis.

Sugarj
07-20-2009, 05:26 PM
I see both angles here. Louis fought and destroyed everyone about and left no stone unturned, its all you can ask of any champion. Where there was any doubt Louis took the rematch and did the business better.

What we have to remember is that during the 30s and 40s black heavyweights were not given the opportunities that they were two or three decades later, its no accident that most of Joe's defenses were against white challengers. Who knows who Louis could have brushed shoulders with were prejudice reduced.

Ali's resume was terrific partially due to the excellent competition which was available, he didn't masterclass everybody he faced and some would argue that Joe Louis was more dominant over the opponents he faced. Without the exile I think Ali would have pasted Quarry, Ellis and Frazier before they hit their respective peaks between 1968 and 1970.

I think Ali's first loss would come to Ken Norton in an alternative world but hell its fun to summise.

Lastly there was nothing wrong with Walcott's punch power! Ezzard Charles, one punch KO (Marciano couldn't do this!) and he dealt Marciano one of his hardest knockdowns too. Three knockdowns against Joe Louis was a testiment to his power, I can remember two of them and they were pretty savage (the right hand that put Louis down in the return would fell most heavyweights).

Obama
07-20-2009, 05:59 PM
Malone,

How does Louis beat Ali on resume?

Ali fought the best level of competition in HW History. Not only other legends, but many solid HW in the bracket below that.

Actually I'd reckon Holyfield did. He just doesn't have the win/loss ratio Ali does.

fight_professor
07-20-2009, 06:02 PM
Holy fought some top cats too.

Spartacus Sully
07-21-2009, 12:48 AM
Just saying the over all damage from having your head thrown against the ceiling compared to having your stuffing knocked out id think having your stuffing affects the brain alittle more and going the distance does more damage over all.

ok so it would probably be a combo but id like to think that one hit catches him and stuns him louis takes that opening and takes him down with a sweet combo.

Silencers
07-21-2009, 12:55 AM
I always try to be objective when it comes to this subject but I always come out thinking that Ali is and was the greatest heavyweight of all time.

I think his resume is better than Louis', even though Louis reigned longer and made more defenses I think Ali fought and beat the better opposition in their respective reigns.

And I also think that in a head to head mystical matchup Ali would beat Louis.

mickey malone
07-21-2009, 06:58 AM
Ali had hideous problems with Norton, Frazier, Young, Shavers & Spinks.. I'd say Ali gets a bit overrated on his wins against Liston & Foreman.. I think it's safe to say that Ali was very adept at negating power, but not so good at dealing with speed.. Louis had a more complete skill set.. As I've already pointed out, Ali would often use his footwork to run onto punches..

Sugarj
07-21-2009, 07:16 AM
Yea, the 70s Ali was still great but not what he was in 66/67, he had rather more problems with fighters when post prime like Norton, Young et al. He slipped some pretty speedy punches from Williams, Cooper, Terrell and Folley in his prime though, great reactions, he was so hard to catch.

I guess he was just an undeveloped kid when he fought Liston, he did show some flashes of greatness that night though. I watched the fight yesterday and Liston couldn't hit him with a bowl of rice in round one.

As for complete skillset, damn it was close. Ali had advantages in speed and mobility, Louis in power and possibly accuracy (albeit not by too much).

Spartacus Sully
07-21-2009, 07:40 AM
possibly accuracy (albeit not by too much)? maybe when i compare the accuracy of alis jabs to that of louis's haymakers.

mickey malone
07-21-2009, 07:47 AM
Yea, the 70s Ali was still great but not what he was in 66/67, he had rather more problems with fighters when post prime like Norton, Young et al. He slipped some pretty speedy punches from Williams, Cooper, Terrell and Folley in his prime though, great reactions, he was so hard to catch.

I guess he was just an undeveloped kid when he fought Liston, he did show some flashes of greatness that night though. I watched the fight yesterday and Liston couldn't hit him with a bowl of rice in round one.

As for complete skillset, damn it was close. Ali had advantages in speed and mobility, Louis in power and possibly accuracy (albeit not by too much).
God... It's always gonna be a knats **** between these 2..
With ref to Williams, Cooper, Terrell & Folley, I'd say Louis deals with these a fair bit quicker than Ali, but I'd also say he'd take a lot longer to deal with Liston & may not even stop him..

Sugarj
07-21-2009, 07:50 AM
Lets face it they were both very accurate with their punches. Louis probably edged Ali for punch economy, but it was a close thing.

boxingbuff
07-21-2009, 05:28 PM
Ali had hideous problems with Norton, Frazier, Young, Shavers & Spinks.. I'd say Ali gets a bit overrated on his wins against Liston & Foreman.. I think it's safe to say that Ali was very adept at negating power, but not so good at dealing with speed.. Louis had a more complete skill set.. As I've already pointed out, Ali would often use his footwork to run onto punches..

I noticed the fighters you listed are all after Ali's 3 1/2 year lay-off.

Please break down those fights against a prime Muhammad Ali (1964-67)

Dang,you even mention some fights 10 years after Ali's prime!! Lol

mickey malone
07-21-2009, 06:08 PM
I noticed the fighters you listed are all after Ali's 3 1/2 year lay-off.

Please break down those fights against a prime Muhammad Ali (1964-67)

Dang,you even mention some fights 10 years after Ali's prime!! Lol
I don't know how many times I've explained how close this is.. That's why the examples aren't many.. The fact is, that over all, Louis struggled with less opponents than Ali did.. During their primes, both fighters were equally unstoppable..

boxingbuff
07-21-2009, 06:18 PM
I don't know how many times I've explained how close this is.. That's why the examples aren't many.. The fact is, that over all, Louis struggled with less opponents than Ali did.. During their primes, both fighters were equally unstoppable..

Well,after Joe Louis's lay-off break down fights against Forman,Frazier 3 times,Shavers,Norton 3 times,Young,Bugner,Lyle,Bonavena,

Remember,this is AFTER Louis's 4 year lay-off!!

Spartacus Sully
07-21-2009, 06:29 PM
quite the boxing buff eh perhaps you should proof read what you post before you post it might save you the trouble of posting it

boxingbuff
07-21-2009, 06:36 PM
quite the boxing buff eh perhaps you should proof read what you post before you post it might save you the trouble of posting it

Be more specific.....

mickey malone
07-21-2009, 07:06 PM
Well,after Joe Louis's lay-off break down fights against Forman,Frazier 3 times,Shavers,Norton 3 times,Young,Bugner,Lyle,Bonavena,

Remember,this is AFTER Louis's 4 year lay-off!!
Not sure what you mean? As in won 11 lost 2 losing only to Norton & Frazier 1 a piece? Or between 70 & 77 (when these fights took place) Ali fought 26 times losing twice? How do you want me to break things down?

Sugarj
07-21-2009, 07:12 PM
I interpreted it to mean that he wants you do post how you think the post war Louis would do against those guys Ali fought in the 70s Mickey, I may be wrong.

I'd rather take one at a time, its late....

Spartacus Sully
07-22-2009, 12:59 AM
I thought he ment to say ali and not louis. Dont really remember a 4 year lay off just 3 for ali and 2 for louis? 67-70 or 48-50?

Sugarj
07-22-2009, 05:28 AM
Joe Louis didn't fight between 1942 and 1946 due to the second world war. This was his forced layoff Ylem.

Spartacus Sully
07-22-2009, 05:48 AM
My appologies Buff, and thanks SugarJ.

whats the deal with jhonny davis in 1944 then? expo match?

0Rooster4Life0
07-22-2009, 05:49 AM
And TBH Louis had a weak jaw. Joe Walcott floored him 3 times in total, which his relatively light fists. Liston, Foreman and Frazier would KO Joe Louis.



Thats not true at all, Walcott had good Power, And his Left hook was fantastic. Watch Walcott KO Charles then tell me he is Light fisted.


Rooster

mickey malone
07-22-2009, 06:13 AM
Joe Louis didn't fight between 1942 and 1946 due to the second world war. This was his forced layoff Ylem.
With regard to lay offs, some of the guys voting for Ali, are saying it wasn't Ali's fault.. I'm not saying it was either, but Louis hardly started the war either lol... Also, I don't think their final comebacks should be brought into this.. Both were too old & got owned by the new champ at the time, so it's hardly worth discussing..

Spartacus Sully
07-22-2009, 06:21 AM
staged 96 boxing exhibitions before two million soldiers? wouldnt really call that a layoff

more so just a break from actually getting knocked out. The davis fight was amongst those i guess but it was an actual title fight Since it was in new york.

mickey malone
07-22-2009, 06:24 AM
staged 96 boxing exhibitions before two million soldiers? wouldnt really call that a layoff

more so just a break from actually getting knocked out. The davis fight was amongst those i guess but it was an actual title fight Since it was in new york.
Good Point!

T.Horton
07-22-2009, 11:33 AM
in his comeback he got hit more, in his prime he really didn't get hit..other then that left hook from Cooper and I think Doug Jones. Louis could perhaps knock him down, but not out.

keep in mind he was never stopped, not even by huge punchers. Louis isn't going to stop him, and he's not going to win a decision either.

I'm actually going to pick Ali by a late round KO. or a Ud.I think it was Sonny Banks, not Doug Jones.

Sugarj
07-22-2009, 11:51 AM
Yes quite right Tim, Sonny Banks, second round left hook. Clay stopped him two rounds later.

mickey malone
07-22-2009, 12:20 PM
Yes quite right Tim, Sonny Banks, second round left hook. Clay stopped him two rounds later.
See... I'm not the only one lol...

TheGreatA
07-22-2009, 12:22 PM
Here's Ali getting knocked down in the amateurs... with a left hook:

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TheGreatA
07-22-2009, 12:33 PM
Thats not true at all, Walcott had good Power, And his Left hook was fantastic. Watch Walcott KO Charles then tell me he is Light fisted.


Rooster

Agreed. All of those were brilliantly set up counter punches that knocked Louis down while he was off balance. He wasn't hurt really.

The only serious knockdowns he suffered were against Schmeling and Marciano.

Buddy Baer caught him and sent him flying through the ropes but Louis got up instantly and proceeded to give Baer a beatdown.

Braddock caught him with an uppercut as Louis was unleashing combinations on him, Louis got up quickly and knocked Braddock out.

Galento caught him with a short left hook, Louis then destroyed him.

Louis may not have had a great chin but he did have great recovering abilities.

Sugarj
07-22-2009, 12:35 PM
Another great find Great A.

Still giggling Mickey. Dammit, Doug Jones gave him a good fight though, I think it was Ring fight of the year 62 or 63.

mickey malone
07-22-2009, 12:35 PM
Rumor has it, that Ali was also knocked down in sparring by Johnny Frankham, a British light heavy.. Frankham was game, but not that hard a puncher, so I doubt it's true.. Anyone know more?

GJC
07-22-2009, 12:43 PM
Rumor has it, that Ali was also knocked down in sparring by Johnny Frankham, a British light heavy.. Frankham was game, but not that hard a puncher, so I doubt it's true.. Anyone know more?
A statement from a gypsy, can't see any reason to doubt that :)

Kid McCoy
07-22-2009, 12:53 PM
Rumor has it, that Ali was also knocked down in sparring by Johnny Frankham, a British light heavy.. Frankham was game, but not that hard a puncher, so I doubt it's true.. Anyone know more?

It was an exhibition, but the knockdown itself was a fake. Ali often used to lark about in exhibitions and pretend to get KO'd. There is actually a photo of Ali on the canvas with Frankham standing over him in existence.

mickey malone
07-22-2009, 12:58 PM
A statement from a gypsy, can't see any reason to doubt that :)
You've obviously had your lawnmower stolen to lol

Well if that's where it came from, I'll disregard it.. Last time I heard, both the Frankhams were in the nick..

Sugarj
07-22-2009, 01:01 PM
Ali was always getting knocked down in sparring, 99% of the time he was clowning, some may have looked real, some may have been real.

One time that was real was when Jimmy Ellis cracked a nasty body punch to Ali's lower ribs as he was preparing for the 1965 Liston return. It still was painful when Ali entered the ring for the fight itself, or so he says. Word obviously didn't reach Liston!

mickey malone
07-22-2009, 01:02 PM
It was an exhibition, but the knockdown itself was a fake. Ali often used to lark about in exhibitions and pretend to get KO'd. There is actually a photo of Ali on the canvas with Frankham standing over him in existence.
Ah... There was a hint of truth in it then..

boxingbuff
07-22-2009, 04:06 PM
Not sure what you mean? As in won 11 lost 2 losing only to Norton & Frazier 1 a piece? Or between 70 & 77 (when these fights took place) Ali fought 26 times losing twice? How do you want me to break things down?

How would Joe Louis do AFTER his 4 year lay-off against Frazier,Forman,Norton,Bugner,Bonavena,and Lyle?

Remember this is AFTER Joe Louis's 4 year lay-off.

BTW-Frazier had an easier time with his opponents than Ali did.Forman had an easier time with his opponents than Ali did.Liston had an easier time with his opponents than Ali did.

BUT,Ali whipped all of them.Ali stopped all of them!

So Louis having fewer opponents that gave him trouble than Ali did,holds no water.

mickey malone
07-22-2009, 04:29 PM
How would Joe Louis do AFTER his 4 year lay-off against Frazier,Forman,Norton,Bugner,Bonavena,and Lyle?

Remember this is AFTER Joe Louis's 4 year lay-off.

BTW-Frazier had an easier time with his opponents than Ali did.Forman had an easier time with his opponents than Ali did.Liston had an easier time with his opponents than Ali did.

BUT,Ali whipped all of them.Ali stopped all of them!

So Louis having fewer opponents that gave him trouble than Ali did,holds no water.
Oh... I see, from Conn onwards, ie Mauriello, Charles, Walcott (2), Charles, & eventually Marciano.. Yeah, I can't deny Ali's results & opponents are of better quality.. But, by then, Louis had defeated & KO'd a lot more fighters than Ali.. He'd also defended his title more times, & with the exception of Liston, against relatively similar opposition.. There's arguments for these breakdowns for every year.. Poet has done it all on the computer, & Louis comes out on top by a hairs breath.. Not saying the computer has to be right, but I was with Louis b4 computers were invented, once again, by a hairs breath..

TheGreatA
07-22-2009, 04:57 PM
How would Joe Louis do AFTER his 4 year lay-off against Frazier,Forman,Norton,Bugner,Bonavena,and Lyle?

Remember this is AFTER Joe Louis's 4 year lay-off.

BTW-Frazier had an easier time with his opponents than Ali did.Forman had an easier time with his opponents than Ali did.Liston had an easier time with his opponents than Ali did.

BUT,Ali whipped all of them.Ali stopped all of them!

So Louis having fewer opponents that gave him trouble than Ali did,holds no water.

Then again Louis was 32 years old after his layoff while Ali was 28.

boxingbuff
07-22-2009, 05:04 PM
Oh... I see, from Conn onwards, ie Mauriello, Charles, Walcott (2), Charles, & eventually Marciano.. Yeah, I can't deny Ali's results & opponents are of better quality.. But, by then, Louis had defeated & KO'd a lot more fighters than Ali.. He'd also defended his title more times, & with the exception of Liston, against relatively similar opposition.. There's arguments for these breakdowns for every year.. Poet has done it all on the computer, & Louis comes out on top by a hairs breath.. Not saying the computer has to be right, but I was with Louis b4 computers were invented, once again, by a hairs breath..

Why do you even mention Louis KO'd alot more fighters than Ali did?

Liston,Frazier,and Forman KO'd alot more fighters than Ali did also....But Ali beat all three and stopped all three.

BTW-To answer my own question....Post war Louis would have been KO'd by Forman and Frazier.He would have had trouble against Shavers and Norton.

So your argument that Ali AFTER his 3 1/2 year lay-off having trouble with Frazier,Norton and Shavers hold no water.Because Louis would have had trouble against Forman,Frazier,Norton and Shavers too.But ALOT worse trouble than Ali did against them.

Prime vs prime Ali beats Louis by UD-10-5

Spartacus Sully
07-22-2009, 05:22 PM
Louis i find had a way of keeping them at the perfect range by pushing away and back pedalin before the ref gets there in clinches. has a similar aspect to that of foreman to whom he would have had trouble with. maybe even a loss.

norton and fraiser 8+ round ko's

not to familiar with shavers or young.

louis would ko spinks 3-5th round

Spartacus Sully
07-22-2009, 05:35 PM
not to mention louis on had 15 fights after his lay off and ali had 32 and that louis had gone through 96 3 4 round expos after his 53 prime fights. compared to alis 29? can that really be prime?id say alis was in his prime for norton fraiser shavers ect where as louis was in his prime pre lay off

well maybe to be mentioned

Sugarj
07-22-2009, 07:09 PM
I consider a fighter's prime to be where they showed best form. In Ali's case this was 66/67. Ali was clearly post prime when he fought Frazier, Norton and definitely Shavers.

mickey malone
07-23-2009, 06:27 AM
Why do you even mention Louis KO'd alot more fighters than Ali did?

Liston,Frazier,and Forman KO'd alot more fighters than Ali did also....But Ali beat all three and stopped all three.

BTW-To answer my own question....Post war Louis would have been KO'd by Forman and Frazier.He would have had trouble against Shavers and Norton.

So your argument that Ali AFTER his 3 1/2 year lay-off having trouble with Frazier,Norton and Shavers hold no water.Because Louis would have had trouble against Forman,Frazier,Norton and Shavers too.But ALOT worse trouble than Ali did against them.

Prime vs prime Ali beats Louis by UD-10-5
What I'm saying, is that Joe Louis had a much better 2 fisted KO ratio than Ali, & I see this as the deciding factor as to who goes on my list at 1&2 respectively, but I'm quite happy to argue the toss along the way..

Spartacus Sully
07-23-2009, 07:21 AM
I consider a fighter's prime to be where they showed best form. In Ali's case this was 66/67. Ali was clearly post prime when he fought Frazier, Norton and definitely Shavers.

66/67 ali vs 71/72/73/74 ali?
66/67 was fast and good form.
71-74 better chin and more power.

perhaps your right.

Sugarj
07-23-2009, 08:37 AM
I dont know if Ali's punch power got any better, his chin was always good.

boxingbuff
07-23-2009, 04:10 PM
What I'm saying, is that Joe Louis had a much better 2 fisted KO ratio than Ali, & I see this as the deciding factor as to who goes on my list at 1&2 respectively, but I'm quite happy to argue the toss along the way..

Again....Forman,Liston,and Frazier had a much better KO ratio than Ali.

BUT,Ali beat all three....And stopped all three!

I'm talking about PRIME Forman,Frazier,and Liston.

BTW-Ali beat and stopped two(Forman and Frazier) after his 3 1/2 year lay-off.So Louis having a better KO ratio than Ali means nothing.

GJC
07-23-2009, 08:48 PM
66/67 ali vs 71/72/73/74 ali?
66/67 was fast and good form.
71-74 better chin and more power.

perhaps your right.
Think the reason 71-74 had a better chin and more power was because he was more flat footed than the earlier version.

Spartacus Sully
07-23-2009, 11:38 PM
I dont have any fights from 66 or 67 and i cant find any in the trading block like patterson terrell or chuvalo. I do have liston in 64 and jones in 63, and in both fights i think a 70 ali would have taken a the 63/64 ali and a pre lay off louis would of as well.

i agree with the flat footed ness and that he knew when to use it and when not to instead of just going flat footed when he got tired of hopping around the ring

Sugarj
07-24-2009, 07:40 AM
The 70 Ali probably was as good as the 63 Ali. The 67 Ali was a different kettle of fish. I'm sure he hit every bit as hard against Williams and Folley in 66/67 as he did against Foreman and Frazier in 74, maybe even harder in the late 60s, his hand speed was faster!

And chins dont improve....Ali's was always solid.

TheGreatA
07-24-2009, 07:55 AM
I dont have any fights from 66 or 67 and i cant find any in the trading block like patterson terrell or chuvalo. I do have liston in 64 and jones in 63, and in both fights i think a 70 ali would have taken a the 63/64 ali and a pre lay off louis would of as well.

i agree with the flat footed ness and that he knew when to use it and when not to instead of just going flat footed when he got tired of hopping around the ring

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<div><object width="480" height="378"><param name="movie" value="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/xojik_muhammad-ali-vs-ernie-terrell-part_sport&related=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/xojik_muhammad-ali-vs-ernie-terrell-part_sport&related=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="378" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always"></embed></object><br /><b><a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xojik_muhammad-ali-vs-ernie-terrell-part_sport">Muhammad Ali vs Ernie Terrell Part 2</a></b><br /><i>Uploaded by <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/TheHomelessDetective">TheHomelessDetective</a>. - <a href="http://www.dailymotion.com/channel/sport">Check out more sports and extreme sports videos.</a></i></div>

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Sugarj
07-24-2009, 08:30 AM
Ylem is in for a treat. Some good stuff there!!! Watch Williams first.

Spartacus Sully
07-24-2009, 08:55 AM
thanks for the videos, poet hooked me up with the videos like 10 mins after i made that post but ive been at work all day and i just now get the chance to download/watch them.

it very well may change my opinion

mickey malone
07-24-2009, 10:11 AM
Again....Forman,Liston,and Frazier had a much better KO ratio than Ali.

BUT,Ali beat all three....And stopped all three!

I'm talking about PRIME Forman,Frazier,and Liston.

BTW-Ali beat and stopped two(Forman and Frazier) after his 3 1/2 year lay-off.So Louis having a better KO ratio than Ali means nothing.
It does when deciding between these 2.. To be honest, I don't care, I was a Louis fan b4 most people on this site were even born.. Nothing's ever gonna change.. He owns Ali, Foreman, Frazier & Liston 6 times outta 10 every time, because he has the least weaknesses & the better all round resume.. And as I keep saying.. It's all pretty close... Louis is the man!.... No1 HW of all time...
I can be dissuaded with other fighters, but never Joe Louis.. If it wasn't for World War 2, he'd have had over 30 title defenses.. Ali allowed his political beliefs to interfere with his boxing, where as Louis made the best of it by joining the army & keeping his hand in while doing exhibitions.. Ali just preached while losing his edge & eventually coming back to get bashed by Frazier.. Ok.... He put it all right, but what an unnecessary interuption.....

Ziggy Stardust
07-24-2009, 10:26 AM
It does when deciding between these 2.. To be honest, I don't care, I was a Louis fan b4 most people on this site were even born.. Nothing's ever gonna change.. He owns Ali, Foreman, Frazier & Liston 6 times outta 10 every time, because he has the least weaknesses & the better all round resume.. And as I keep saying.. It's all pretty close... Louis is the man!.... No1 HW of all time...
I can be dissuaded with other fighters, but never Joe Louis.. If it wasn't for World War 2, he'd have had over 30 title defenses.. Ali allowed his political beliefs to interfere with his boxing, where as Louis made the best of it by joining the army & keeping his hand in while doing exhibitions.. Ali just preached while losing his edge & eventually coming back to get bashed by Frazier.. Ok.... He put it all right, but what an unnecessary interuption.....

I was an Ali fan back in the 1970s.....then I discovered just what he did to Joe Frazier and I ceased being a fan. Now, while I admire Ali's abilities as a fighter, I can't claim him as a favorite. In the 1980s I discovered Joe Louis and he rapidly climbed the ladder to be my all-time favorite fighter and he only becomes more firmly entrenched there the more I watch footage of him.

Poet

mickey malone
07-24-2009, 10:39 AM
I was an Ali fan back in the 1970s.....then I discovered just what he did to Joe Frazier and I ceased being a fan. Now, while I admire Ali's abilities as a fighter, I can't claim him as a favorite. In the 1980s I discovered Joe Louis and he rapidly climbed the ladder to be my all-time favorite fighter and he only becomes more firmly entrenched there the more I watch footage of him.

Poet
He was something else Poet.. Believe me... Something else!
Didn't suffer fools gladly... That's 4 sure...

Ziggy Stardust
07-24-2009, 10:43 AM
He was something else Poet.. Believe me... Something else!
Didn't suffer fools gladly... That's 4 sure...

All business in the ring.....many opponents found his emotionless in-ring demeanor as intimidating as anything Liston, Foreman, or Tyson could come up with.

Poet

mickey malone
07-24-2009, 10:52 AM
All business in the ring.....many opponents found his emotionless in-ring demeanor as intimidating as anything Liston, Foreman, or Tyson could come up with.

Poet
Creeping Death....

Sugarj
07-24-2009, 11:18 AM
I love em both, great resumes. LEGENDS!

But I defy any one to watch the peak Louis face Tommy Farr and then Billy Conn 1. Then watch the You tube videos of Ali vs Williams, Terrell and Folley.

I'll be very much suprised if anyone truely believes Ali wouldn't beat Joe. Ali was Joe's stylistic nightmare and was better in every department than Farr and Conn!

TheGreatA
07-24-2009, 11:22 AM
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x175/McGrain_bucket/img011_edited-1.jpg

Ziggy Stardust
07-24-2009, 11:36 AM
I love em both, great resumes. LEGENDS!

But I defy any one to watch the peak Louis face Tommy Farr and then Billy Conn 1. Then watch the You tube videos of Ali vs Williams, Terrell and Folley.

I'll be very much suprised if anyone truely believes Ali wouldn't beat Joe. Ali was Joe's stylistic nightmare and was better in every department than Farr and Conn!

Like I said in the initial post, despite the fact that Louis is my favorite I feel Ali edges him for the top spot among Heavyweights due to his unreal speed and reflexes. If they fought ten times I see Ali edging the series 6 to 4. That being said, maybe some of the posters who favor Louis will make arguments that will change my mind.

Poet

winky44
07-24-2009, 11:40 AM
Like I said in the initial post, despite the fact that Louis is my favorite I feel Ali edges him for the top spot among Heavyweights due to his unreal speed and reflexes. If they fought ten times I see Ali edging the series 6 to 4. That being said, maybe some of the posters who favor Louis will make arguments that will change my mind.

Poet

i disagree with your post

Ziggy Stardust
07-24-2009, 11:41 AM
i disagree with your post

Whatever.

Poet

winky44
07-24-2009, 11:50 AM
Whatever.

Poet

right.........Just really disagreed with that post you made. very unaccurate

Ziggy Stardust
07-24-2009, 11:59 AM
right.........Just really disagreed with that post you made. very unaccurate

Whatever. Go troll elsewhere.

Poet

Kid McCoy
07-24-2009, 12:00 PM
I love em both, great resumes. LEGENDS!

But I defy any one to watch the peak Louis face Tommy Farr and then Billy Conn 1. Then watch the You tube videos of Ali vs Williams, Terrell and Folley.

I'll be very much suprised if anyone truely believes Ali wouldn't beat Joe. Ali was Joe's stylistic nightmare and was better in every department than Farr and Conn!

That's not a fair comparison. Billy Conn was a prime Hall of Famer who had beaten several top heavies to get his shot at Louis. Imo, he'd also give Ali plenty to think about. Williams and Folley were not even prime, let alone Hall of Famers. I could just as easily point to Ali's fight with Mildenberger and Louis' rematch with Schmeling for the opposite viewpoint.

Terrell was prime with a tricky style and Ali did beat him pretty handily, but I don't see how that translates to Ali beating Louis.

Tommy Farr was an excellent fighter with a rock chin who beat Baer, Burman and (to the eyes of many) Braddock too. No one beat him easily at his best.

winky44
07-24-2009, 12:02 PM
Whatever. Go troll elsewhere.

Poet

am not a troll. it was just you made a bad post and i told you you made a bad post.

Ziggy Stardust
07-24-2009, 12:03 PM
am not a troll. it was just you made a bad post and i told you you made a bad post.

And you have made your last post in my thread.

Poet

TheGreatA
07-24-2009, 12:27 PM
That's not a fair comparison. Billy Conn was a prime Hall of Famer who had beaten several top heavies to get his shot at Louis. Imo, he'd also give Ali plenty to think about. Williams and Folley were not even prime, let alone Hall of Famers. I could just as easily point to Ali's fight with Mildenberger and Louis' rematch with Schmeling for the opposite viewpoint.

Terrell was prime with a tricky style and Ali did beat him pretty handily, but I don't see how that translates to Ali beating Louis.

Tommy Farr was an excellent fighter with a rock chin who beat Baer, Burman and (to the eyes of many) Braddock too. No one beat him easily at his best.

I think Conn and Farr also posed different stylistical match-ups for Louis than Ali would.

Conn of course used movement to frustrate Louis but he was also beating him on the inside with quick combinations. In the end he got carried away with it and left himself open for counter punches.

Farr was simply a cagey, durable veteran who could trouble anybody.

Bob Pastor in the first fight practically ran away from Louis and did well enough to survive the distance. In a rematch Louis nearly knocked him out in rounds 1 & 2 until Pastor made a great rally in the middle rounds. Louis patiently waited for his opportunity and caught Pastor with one of the quickest and most powerful right hands that I've ever seen as Pastor was moving to his left.

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Walcott used similar tactics to frustrate an older Louis. He had tricky movement but only a moment of over-confidence cost him in their second fight.

Ali would be a tough match-up for Louis indeed but I can't count Louis out in any match-up. He had an amazing ability to solve all kinds of styles and end up victorious.

Kid McCoy
07-24-2009, 12:37 PM
Ali would be a tough match-up for Louis indeed but I can't count Louis out in any match-up. He had an amazing ability to solve all kinds of styles and end up victorious.

I agree. I've changed my views on this fight numerous times, but at the moment I actually favour Ali to win a decision. I just think some are seriously underestimating Joe by picking Ali to win easily.

Ziggy Stardust
07-24-2009, 12:38 PM
And you have made your last post in my thread.

Poet

I now fully expect to be hit with red K and have a new thread made about me in the Thunderdome :439:

Poet

Sugarj
07-24-2009, 12:57 PM
Kid McCoy said:

'That's not a fair comparison. Billy Conn was a prime Hall of Famer who had beaten several top heavies to get his shot at Louis. Imo, he'd also give Ali plenty to think about. Williams and Folley were not even prime, let alone Hall of Famers. I could just as easily point to Ali's fight with Mildenberger and Louis' rematch with Schmeling for the opposite viewpoint.

Terrell was prime with a tricky style and Ali did beat him pretty handily, but I don't see how that translates to Ali beating Louis.

Tommy Farr was an excellent fighter with a rock chin who beat Baer, Burman and (to the eyes of many) Braddock too. No one beat him easily at his best.'


Hi McCoy, my comparison was based entirely on styles. Farr and Conn were good fighters who used movement, fast footwork (at least in Conn's case!) a solid left jab and combinations to give a peak Louis two serious scares. The Ali examples that I used demonstrates a guy (at his peak) who is bigger, every bit as good at combination punching, more mobile, faster of hands and feet, with a longer reach, a more solid chin and more of an ability to slip punches than either of those two. It is based on these performances that I feel that Louis almost certainly loses to a peak Ali. The style beats Louis and Ali almost certainly would have pulled it off much better than Farr and Conn.

As for Mildenberger, thats a bad choice........Louis was never a southpaw! Ali knocked him down a few times from memory and stopped him I think in the twelth. Mildenberger gave him a few problems but didn't win many rounds and certainly didn't hurt Ali.

As for Schmelling 2, watch Max. He was like a scared Rabbit, no comparison to the guy who fought Louis in 36! He threw only one punch the whole first round (a right hand). I'll never forget Ali in the famous documentary 'AKA Cassius Clay' analysing this fight, he was rightly scathing of Schmelling. How poor Max is at attempting survival is untrue. No circiling, no clinching or pushing, no punches to at least try and keep Joe off. Its not like Louis was fighting like a man possessed (nothing like Dempsey vs Willard or Tyson vs Spinks!). Schmelling had chances to make more of the fight, the pace wasn't blindingly frenetic.

TheGreatA
07-24-2009, 01:02 PM
Kid McCoy said:

'That's not a fair comparison. Billy Conn was a prime Hall of Famer who had beaten several top heavies to get his shot at Louis. Imo, he'd also give Ali plenty to think about. Williams and Folley were not even prime, let alone Hall of Famers. I could just as easily point to Ali's fight with Mildenberger and Louis' rematch with Schmeling for the opposite viewpoint.

Terrell was prime with a tricky style and Ali did beat him pretty handily, but I don't see how that translates to Ali beating Louis.

Tommy Farr was an excellent fighter with a rock chin who beat Baer, Burman and (to the eyes of many) Braddock too. No one beat him easily at his best.'


Hi McCoy, my comparison was based entirely on styles. Farr and Conn were good fighters who used movement, fast footwork (at least in Conn's case!) a solid left jab and combinations to give a peak Louis two serious scares. The Ali examples that I used demonstrates a guy (at his peak) who is bigger, every bit as good at combination punching, more mobile, faster of hands and feet, with a longer reach, a more solid chin and more of an ability to slip punches than either of those two. It is based on these performances that I feel that Louis almost certainly loses to a peak Ali. The style beats Louis and Ali almost certainly would have pulled it off much better than Farr and Conn.

As for Mildenberger, thats a bad choice........Louis was never a southpaw! Ali knocked him down a few times from memory and stopped him I think in the twelth. Mildenberger gave him a few problems but didn't win many rounds and certainly didn't hurt Ali.

As for Schmelling 2, watch Max. He was like a scared Rabbit, no comparison to the guy who fought Louis in 36! He threw only one punch the whole first round (a right hand). I'll never forget Ali in the famous documentary 'AKA Cassius Clay' analysing this fight, he was rightly scathing of Schmelling. How poor Max is at attempting survival is untrue. No circiling, no clinching or pushing, no punches to at least try and keep Joe off. Its not like Louis was fighting like a man possessed (nothing like Dempsey vs Willard or Tyson vs Spinks!). Schmelling had chances to make more of the fight, the pace wasn't blindingly frenetic.

I'm quite certain that one of Louis' body punches broke Schmeling's vertebrae, leaving him completely immobilized and a punching bag for the rest of the fight.

People tend to underrate Louis' body punching. Louis said the first thing he would do against Ali was try to corner him against the ropes, go to the body and try to catch him as he was trying to circle away from Louis.

Sugarj
07-24-2009, 01:19 PM
Hi GreatA, true! Louis did break one of Max's vertabrae (or at least this was reported!), but this was towards the end of the round as Schmelling was on the ropes and actually partially turned his back on Louis before receiving the blow. He apparently screamed! He took his blows like a man on the ropes but someone like Ali would have clinched or circled.

Please watch the fight, its only two minutes or so long. If anyone else doesn't think that Schmelling's performance even prior to being on the ropes was poor......I'm ready.

There is the view that Max hated being a flag flyer for the Nazi's and that the pressure from Germany may have caused him to have bad stress or an undisclosed panic attack. These men were under intense pressure, but Schmelling's performance was well out of character.

As for Joe cornering a peak Ali..........naa. 'Shuffling Joe' had very slow feet in comparison to Ali. Ali went back faster than Joe had the ability to go forwards! Plus Joe was not really a pressure fighter in the Marciano, Frazier, Liston, Foreman or Tyson vein. Just watch Liston in round one against even a pre prime Ali in their first fight, Liston pressured Ali hard in the round and landed next to nothing!

Ziggy Stardust
07-24-2009, 01:24 PM
Just watch Liston in round one against even a pre prime Ali in their first fight, Liston pressured Ali hard in the round and landed next to nothing!

But Liston's handspeed was no where near Louis'.....it makes a difference.

Poet

d0n
07-24-2009, 01:44 PM
If they had to fight...I struggle to see Louis winning; that ain't the point, though. Take them in their own eras. Ali told us all he was the greatest of all time and we had to believe him, because Joe was long gone and Ali WAS pretty damn brilliant.

Although Ali did have amazing opponents, I think Joe's were better in those days. He overcame alot of amazing odds and in his 25 title defences...still a record...he finished 22 of them by KO.

He KO'd THE(in those days :P) Max Baer. Never seen Max take a beating like that before. He did lose against Schmeling, but came back and KO'd him in round one.

TheGreatA
07-24-2009, 01:51 PM
Hi GreatA, true! Louis did break one of Max's vertabrae (or at least this was reported!), but this was towards the end of the round as Schmelling was on the ropes and actually partially turned his back on Louis before receiving the blow. He apparently screamed! He took his blows like a man on the ropes but someone like Ali would have clinched or circled.

Please watch the fight, its only two minutes or so long. If anyone else doesn't think that Schmelling's performance even prior to being on the ropes was poor......I'm ready.

There is the view that Max hated being a flag flyer for the Nazi's and that the pressure from Germany may have caused him to have bad stress or an undisclosed panic attack. These men were under intense pressure, but Schmelling's performance was well out of character.

As for Joe cornering a peak Ali..........naa. 'Shuffling Joe' had very slow feet in comparison to Ali. Ali went back faster than Joe had the ability to go forwards! Plus Joe was not really a pressure fighter in the Marciano, Frazier, Liston, Foreman or Tyson vein. Just watch Liston in round one against even a pre prime Ali in their first fight, Liston pressured Ali hard in the round and landed next to nothing!

Schmeling seemed to fight his usual fight from what I see. The crushing right at 2:48 stuns Schmeling and the following body punch at 2:51 crippled him.

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First fight:

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I don't think of Liston as much of a pressure fighter either. He was actually comparable to Louis because he rarely forced the fight and patiently waited for opportunities. Against Ali he was forced to be aggressive and couldn't handle Ali's fast footwork and head movement.

Eddie Machen and Bert Whitehurst were able to take advantage of this earlier in Liston's career.

I can't see Louis being frustrated to the point that Liston was though.

Ziggy Stardust
07-24-2009, 01:54 PM
I don't think of Liston as much of a pressure fighter either. He was actually comparable to Louis because he rarely forced the fight and patiently waited for opportunities. Against Ali he was forced to be aggressive and couldn't handle Ali's fast footwork and head movement.

Eddie Machen and Bert Whitehurst were able to take advantage of this earlier in Liston's career.

I can't see Louis being frustrated to the point that Liston was though.

From what I've read, Liston admired Louis and patterned much of his fighting style after him.

Poet

Sugarj
07-24-2009, 02:23 PM
Hi GreatA, I cant believe you just said:

'Schmeling seemed to fight his usual fight from what I see.'

Did we see the same fight! Schmelling was awful, not one jab!!!!!!! Only one right hand. The limpest, most pulled attempts at infighting around 2:25 - 2:30. He offerred no form of attack or defense.

Schmelling was a great fighter, but that was in no way 'his usual fight'.


Oh and Hi Poet,

I agree that Louis had faster hands than Liston, but I'd argue that Liston had better mobility and could cut off a ring better, plus his reach was much longer than Louis's. Plus in the first round of the first Ali fight Liston put more pressure on Ali than Joe even did to Schmelling. I really cant see Louis easily cornering a peak Ali....too nimble on his feet and Ali's jab was faster and Ali had the longer reach, too much for Joe to get past for me.

mickey malone
07-24-2009, 02:25 PM
Problem with Ali, is that too many people believed him when he had far too much trouble backing it up.. Louis just got on with it.. No mouth, no jokes, no political issues... Just boxing, boxing, boxing, and whose next... Not larking about like Malcolm X & Martin Luther King (who wern't boxers by the way) Louis was a far more focused & genuine bonafide champ... No Bollocks... Just the muck & bullets put in front of him.. Ali fvcked about too much to be placed above Louis & with an inferior resume to.. Louis's the man.. Every minute of every day.... This can be seen in the demeaning way that Ali fights... Keeping men up longer than they have to be!!! What's that all about???? Unwarranted abuse to Frazier ring any bells???... He aint no Joe Louis, that's 4 sure.... If Louis was half as good with his mouth, the gap would be a darn site wider...

Can't wait for the bollocks that comes back over this... lol....

Sugarj
07-24-2009, 02:41 PM
Ha ha, dont worry Mickey, no bollox for you.

I guess it depends how you rate greatness doesn't it? When comparing the two I am only looking from the point of view as to who would win in my opinion, should they have actually met in the ring.

I think both resumes are close. Louis didn't face too many black folks in the 30s or early 40s. But both fought and beat great opponents, Ali famously when he was the underdog twice (7-1 and 3-1, Liston and Foreman!). When was Louis ever an underdog, let alone prove everyone wrong?

I choose not to compare them as men. For all Joe's humility many were more entertained by Ali who really transended the sport (poems, shuffles and all). For all Joe's patriotism many admired Ali's stand on the Vietnam war. Joe advertised cigarettes (yes boxers knew it was bad for them!) and fell into cocaine addiction. Ali cheated on his wives (serially) and was intensely cruel to Frazier in his mockery.

I hope this at least adds a few thoughts. For every Louis fan there will be an Ali fan. I'm glad I'm a fan of both for all their negatives.

TheGreatA
07-24-2009, 02:47 PM
Hi GreatA, I cant believe you just said:

'Schmeling seemed to fight his usual fight from what I see.'

Did we see the same fight! Schmelling was awful, not one jab!!!!!!! Only one right hand. The limpest, most pulled attempts at infighting around 2:25 - 2:30. He offerred no form of attack or defense.

Schmelling was a great fighter, but that was in no way 'his usual fight'.

Well, you must not be a big fan of Schmeling's style then because he never had much use for the jab and had a unique style of in-fighting which mostly consisted of a repeated right hand to the body and a right uppercut.

He turned the shoulders to deflect punches as his form of defense, to the point where he was almost sideways. Very, very awkward opponent to fight, with a great counter right hand, but Louis had him figured out in the rematch.

Ziggy Stardust
07-24-2009, 03:02 PM
BTW, the discussion going on in this thread is how Boxing Scene in general and the Boxing History Section in particular is SUPPOSED to work.....amazing how enlightening these conversations are when the trolls are barred from mucking it up.

PS. Someone brought up the Louis - Conn fight earlier. That fight was a lot closer than is frequently made out. It was scored on the rounds system and Conn had a 2 round lead on 2 cards going into the 13th and the 3rd card was even.

Poet

Sugarj
07-24-2009, 03:02 PM
He had some use for the jab, more than zero. As for the body right and and uppercut, yes it was a favorite of his........but usually it carried some weight. I'll go and watch that bit from Schmelling 2 again, the limpest punches ever attempted in a title fight. Shocking!

I'm no Schmelling nuthugger, I dont watch his fights daily but he used his jab much better against Sharkey and Baer from memory.

I honestly think Louis would have gone to convincingly beat the Schmelling that turned up for fight one. Your right, Louis had him figured out but hell, even Joe must have been suprised by Max's lack of resistance. The guy repeatedly hurt him in fight one, knocked him down twice and eventually out.

mickey malone
07-24-2009, 03:23 PM
Ha ha, dont worry Mickey, no bollox for you.

I guess it depends how you rate greatness doesn't it? When comparing the two I am only looking from the point of view as to who would win in my opinion, should they have actually met in the ring.

I think both resumes are close. Louis didn't face too many black folks in the 30s or early 40s. But both fought and beat great opponents, Ali famously when he was the underdog twice (7-1 and 3-1, Liston and Foreman!). When was Louis ever an underdog, let alone prove everyone wrong?

I choose not to compare them as men. For all Joe's humility many were more entertained by Ali who really transended the sport (poems, shuffles and all). For all Joe's patriotism many admired Ali's stand on the Vietnam war. Joe advertised cigarettes (yes boxers knew it was bad for them!) and fell into cocaine addiction. Ali cheated on his wives (serially) and was intensely cruel to Frazier in his mockery.

I hope this at least adds a few thoughts. For every Louis fan there will be an Ali fan. I'm glad I'm a fan of both for all their negatives.
You're one of the best posters out there, but I'm done with fighting styles now.. To me, it's just down to the nitty gritty.. This arguments been going on for nearly 50 years.. And all I know, is that Louis had a better record, more fights, more title defenses, more KO's, more longevity, less loses, less distractions, less titanic struggles, less lay offs, less gob & less controversy.. Everything was cut & dried with Louis.. No long counts, no split gloves, no phantom punches, no abuse or intimidation b4 fights.. Just straight forward business as usual, with the ability to destroy fighters in rematches... Well.... What do you expect from the very best????

Sugarj
07-24-2009, 03:38 PM
Your a top poster too Mickey. I'm in full agreement with Poet that these threads are great without the Trolls etc. Its good to battle knowledge with proper historians like yourself, GreatA, Poet, McCoy and many others I could mention. Imagine how much time we could all p##s away with a few beers and a decent fight film collection.

Anyway, looks like your decided on Louis. I have to shade Ali for me, but both are my boxing idols. The issue of longevity is arguable, while Louis had a longer reign, Ali mixed in world class for longer and had alonger career. Anyway six of one or a half dozen of another!!!!

My Grandfather once met Joe Louis, I was priviliged to have shaken a hand that had shaken the hand of the great man. May he rest in peace.

mickey malone
07-24-2009, 04:00 PM
Your a top poster too Mickey. I'm in full agreement with Poet that these threads are great without the Trolls etc. Its good to battle knowledge with proper historians like yourself, GreatA, Poet, McCoy and many others I could mention. Imagine how much time we could all p##s away with a few beers and a decent fight film collection.

Anyway, looks like your decided on Louis. I have to shade Ali for me, but both are my boxing idols. The issue of longevity is arguable, while Louis had a longer reign, Ali mixed in world class for longer and had alonger career. Anyway six of one or a half dozen of another!!!!

My Grandfather once met Joe Louis, I was priviliged to have shaken a hand that had shaken the hand of the great man. May he rest in peace.
That's cool man... God, we'd get too pissed to work the video lol...
I thought that as I wrote... Continuity being the better word, but oh, what the F**K... It's been a long day lol....
And ****!... You were right the other day... It was a left hook that put Hatton over.. Always hold my hands up...

TheGreatA
07-24-2009, 04:23 PM
He had some use for the jab, more than zero. As for the body right and and uppercut, yes it was a favorite of his........but usually it carried some weight. I'll go and watch that bit from Schmelling 2 again, the limpest punches ever attempted in a title fight. Shocking!

I'm no Schmelling nuthugger, I dont watch his fights daily but he used his jab much better against Sharkey and Baer from memory.

I honestly think Louis would have gone to convincingly beat the Schmelling that turned up for fight one. Your right, Louis had him figured out but hell, even Joe must have been suprised by Max's lack of resistance. The guy repeatedly hurt him in fight one, knocked him down twice and eventually out.

Watch Schmeling vs Baer. His right to the body-right uppercut combination had no power in it, he just kept throwing and looked as if he was winning the rounds because Baer did very little (until KO'ing him that is).

Schmeling did use the jab, mostly as a range-finder, but you won't see him using it against Louis even in the first fight because he knew Louis had a better one. He would instead try to counter over the jab with his right hand, a highly successful strategy in their first fight.

To me the big difference in the fight was that Louis came out much more aggressively and managed to hurt Schmeling early. In the first fight Louis tried to figure out an awkward opponent who instead had him figured out.

Schmeling was not a shot fighter even after this fight in my opinion. He was coming off three easy wins over decent opponents, and went onto KO the hyped European and German champion Adolf Heuser in just one round. He was then drafted to the army and served as a paratrooper.

TheGreatA
07-24-2009, 04:29 PM
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GJC
07-24-2009, 05:18 PM
Hi GreatA, I cant believe you just said:

'Schmeling seemed to fight his usual fight from what I see.'

Did we see the same fight! Schmelling was awful, not one jab!!!!!!! Only one right hand. The limpest, most pulled attempts at infighting around 2:25 - 2:30. He offerred no form of attack or defense.

Schmelling was a great fighter, but that was in no way 'his usual fight'.


Oh and Hi Poet,

I agree that Louis had faster hands than Liston, but I'd argue that Liston had better mobility and could cut off a ring better, plus his reach was much longer than Louis's. Plus in the first round of the first Ali fight Liston put more pressure on Ali than Joe even did to Schmelling. I really cant see Louis easily cornering a peak Ali....too nimble on his feet and Ali's jab was faster and Ali had the longer reach, too much for Joe to get past for me.
Not the best fight to give an analysis on Schmeling, it was as near to an execution as i've seen in HW history.

Sugarj
07-24-2009, 09:13 PM
Yes, I've just had a look at Louis Schmelling 1 and to be honest there isn't much in the way of jab work from Schmelling. I guess his plan was largely based around his right hand (he'd detected that Louis dropped his left after jabbing).

I'll take another look at Schmelling vs Baer. Savage knockout by Baer, but a fairly even fight up till then.

But I still think there was something wrong with Schmelling for the second Louis fight. Very poor effort in my opinion! That said he did suffer.

TheGreatA
07-24-2009, 09:21 PM
Yes, I've just had a look at Louis Schmelling 1 and to be honest there isn't much in the way of jab work from Schmelling. I guess his plan was largely based around his right hand (he'd detected that Louis dropped his left after jabbing).

I'll take another look at Schmelling vs Baer. Savage knockout by Baer, but a fairly even fight up till then.

But I still think there was something wrong with Schmelling for the second Louis fight. Very poor effort in my opinion! That said he did suffer.

Maybe. I think he simply didn't expect such a furious attack from the usually patiently stalking Louis. He was hit with a terrific right hand that stunned him and a crippling body punch that pretty much finished him. The rest of it was just an unnecessary beating.

Might not be the best comparison but Montell Griffin gave a tentative Roy Jones trouble for many rounds with his unorthodox style and was even on the scorecards at the time of the DQ. In the rematch a much more aggressive Roy Jones destroyed the unexpecting Griffin in one.

I believe Griffin later said something to the effect of that "Roy Jones was scared of trying to box me which is why he knocked me out in the first round"... :pat:

Sugarj
07-24-2009, 09:42 PM
Forgetting both Schmelling vs Louis matches I do like watching Jones vs Griffin 1 and 2. Griffin was so controlled and was executing the best game plan possible against prime Jones in fight one.

Its a fantastic example of a comparison but I feel that Schmelling at least had a chance to execute a gameplan, Montell did try and punch back while he was with us! Jones came out for fight 2 loading up his finest left hook. If I was Jones I wouldn't have got involved in another chess match........too risky. Jones knew he had the capability to stop Griffin, he'd done it (controversially in the first fight) before and wasted no time.

GJC
07-26-2009, 01:42 PM
I believe Griffin later said something to the effect of that "Roy Jones was scared of trying to box me which is why he knocked me out in the first round"... :pat:

That is a wonderful quote, worthy of Tex Cobb

Caesar
08-02-2009, 10:32 AM
i think that at the end of the day ali would be the better boxer, because of his smartness, y right ali loss some fights against not famous boxer, bit in my opinion just because he underrated them