View Full Version : What Do You Think Is The Hardest Fanatsy Fight To Pick A Winner Out Of?


Gettin Jiggy
07-16-2009, 08:17 PM
Well?

For Me
Liston/Marciano
Hagler/Hopkins
Sanchez/Arguello
Ray Leonard/Pryor

Discuss

Southpaw Stinger
07-16-2009, 11:21 PM
Mike Tyson vs Audley Harrison.

Gettin Jiggy
07-16-2009, 11:32 PM
Mike Tyson vs Audley Harrison.

any serious ones?

Sugarj
07-17-2009, 08:30 AM
Louis vs Dempsey is a toughy. Every time that I think Louis is too big, accurate and polished I get a mental image of Dempsey breaking through with an almighty punch and not letting Louis recover. I'm still undecided on this one.

Lewis vs Bowe: Bowe had the better chin, Lewis slightly the better skills.

Foreman vs Liston: I edge Foreman here but not by much if they both met at their peak.

Holmes vs Tyson at their peaks: I edge Holmes but only by a whisker for the crown of 'best heavy of the 80s'.

A silly last one!!!!! Ali vs Bruce Lee in a street fight: I cant call this one, either Ali simply walks over to the much much smaller Lee and knocks him out with a right hand or Lee side kicks, shattering Ali's knee cap the moment the range is closed. Hee hee

sonnyboyx2
07-17-2009, 09:07 AM
Well?

For Me
Liston/Marciano
Hagler/Hopkins
Sanchez/Arguello
Ray Leonard/Pryor

Discussit would be pretty easy to predict the winners from a betting point of view by the fighters odds which would be something like this :

Liston 1/6 - Marciano 6/4
Hagler 11/10 - Hopkins 4/7
Sanchez 2/1 - Arguello 1/2
Leonard 1/3 - Pryor 15/8

sonnyboyx2
07-17-2009, 09:13 AM
Louis vs Dempsey is a toughy. Every time that I think Louis is too big, accurate and polished I get a mental image of Dempsey breaking through with an almighty punch and not letting Louis recover. I'm still undecided on this one.

Lewis vs Bowe: Bowe had the better chin, Lewis slightly the better skills.

Foreman vs Liston: I edge Foreman here but not by much if they both met at their peak.

Holmes vs Tyson at their peaks: I edge Holmes but only by a whisker for the crown of 'best heavy of the 80s'.

A silly last one!!!!! Ali vs Bruce Lee in a street fight: I cant call this one, either Ali simply walks over to the much much smaller Lee and knocks him out with a right hand or Lee side kicks, shattering Ali's knee cap the moment the range is closed. Hee hee

Bowe was vastly more superior to Lewis in every department

Liston was technically superior to Foreman in every department.

Holmes is quoted as saying, "He could never have beaten Mike Tyson"

Bruce Lee was nothing but a movie star, he tried his hand at boxing in 1963 in Texas and won a 3rd decision over a Texas amateur, yet by all account Lee was exhausted and out on his feet in the 3rd.... Muhammed Ali would pull Lee`s arms and legs off then flick him away

Sugarj
07-17-2009, 11:31 AM
I'm a big Bowe fan, he may even be my favorite heavyweight of the 90s. I would just lean towards him in a match with Lewis, his chin was terrific whereas Lewis's was suspect and both guys punched hard! As for skills it was close, but lets face it, it was only three years before Bowe's peak in 1991/92 where in 1988 Lewis clearly beat Bowe in the Olympics. I think if we took a poll on 'Most skilled boxer Lewis or Bowe?' I think most guys on the forum would vote Lewis. But I personally dont think its by much.

I agree that Liston was technically superior to Foreman. I still think that it would be a tough fight to call.

I've read the Holmes biography and read plenty of interviews with him. That quote is new to me, he did say he would never have beaten Tyson in the condition he was in, in 1988. Indeed at the end of 'Champions Forever' the film that was recorded after losing to Tyson, Larry expresses that he thinks he is the greatest of all time. He did show flashes of greatness in those four rounds, if he was eight years younger who knows. All we do know is that 1)no one else knocked him out 2) He took the hardest punches of Shavers and 3) Tyson did fade late into fights. Too close to call for me.

I did state that the Ali vs Lee thing was a 'silly last one', this thread was based on 'fantasy fights' though. But here goes, just for fun...........Lee's peak was truely believed to be in 72/73 not the early 60s when he was just a spindly youth in his early 20s. I also clearly stated that we are talking about a 'street fight', not a boxing match. There is enough video evidence to indicate that Lee had terrific foot speed and power for a man of his size, and his Jeet Kune Do philosophy regarded striking at the earliest point at the closest target. Ali would have never trained for defending kicks to the knees which is why I cited this daft example. In a boxing match this would be a clear mismatch, obviously in favour of Ali.

Kid McCoy
07-17-2009, 12:31 PM
Bowe was vastly more superior to Lewis in every department


I'm always amazed at how Bowe gets rated over Lewis. Sure he was talented, but his prime lasted a nanosecond, his only significant wins were against the cruiser-sized Holyfield, and he had the snot beaten out of him twice by the only other prime contender he faced. He also openly ducked Lewis and failed to meet a gaggle of top heavyweights who were around in the 90s.

Sugarj
07-17-2009, 12:42 PM
I agree, I think 'vastly more superior to Lewis' is a step too far.

Both had great jabs, excellent amateur pedigrees, superb combination work, every punch in the arsenal. Bowe was better on the inside, arguably Lewis on the outside. Lewis clearly had the better defense and ability to slip punches (although he was no Larry Holmes in this department!) whereas Bowe had the better chin. Very close rated heavyweights at their best.

sonnyboyx2
07-17-2009, 01:32 PM
I agree, I think 'vastly more superior to Lewis' is a step too far.

Both had great jabs, excellent amateur pedigrees, superb combination work, every punch in the arsenal. Bowe was better on the inside, arguably Lewis on the outside. Lewis clearly had the better defense and ability to slip punches (although he was no Larry Holmes in this department!) whereas Bowe had the better chin. Very close rated heavyweights at their best.Lennox Lewis jab was nothing but a paw` it was a distracker not a weapon like Riddick Bowe`s, Lewis was easily "out-jabbed" by Frank Bruno and Vitali Klitschko, Holyfield held his own with Lewis in the jabbing, sorry but Bowe would have decapitad Lewis with his jab, Lewis just does not match-up to Bowe in any department of the sport of boxing, it is immaterial wether Bowes peak was 3yrs or 20yrs, if these 2 had met between 93 to 96 Bowe would have been the easy victor, Lewis never in his career did he produce a performance like those that Bowe produced, Lewis in his best ever performance won a split decision over Mercer, Mercer was then beaten by Jesse Ferguson that same Ferguson was butchered by Bowe as was former champ Mike Dokes who was on a 10 fight win streak, Bowe unfortunately "eat himself out of the title" bloating up to over 350lbs between fights, Bowe vs Golota 1 & 2 was as good as any heavyweight fights in boxing history and "Brutal" .. after those 2 fights "BOTH" Bowe and Golota was never the same fighters again... Lennox Lewis wanted `no-part` of any fighters who was at the top of their game in the 1990s Lewis only ever fought `bums, cans and has-beens` Lennox Lewis claim to fame is that he beat Tyson 11yrs after Buster Douglas had beaten Mighty Mike, 6yrs after Holyfield had finished off what was left of Tyson.. Lewis always boasted that Bowe was afraid to fight him, when infact nothing could have been further from the truth, The WBC ordered Bowe vs Lewis in 93, Bowe was the undisputed champion, Lewis was demanding a 50/50 purse split and options on Bowes next 5 fights should Bowe win, Bowe said,"no way" so the WBC threatened to strip Bowe of their belt if he did not agree, so Bowe said to the WBC "UP YOU" and threw their belt in the trash can, Bowe went on to defend his title for $30 million in a rematch with Holyfield, not the $3 million he was going to be paid for fighting Lewis... The Lewis camp seized on this and claimed for anyone who would listen that Bowe was afraid of their man... Bowe lost the closest decision in heavyweight history to Holyfield and Lewis got poleaxed by McCall in 1994, the Bowe camp made a legitimate offer of 10 million to the Lennox Lewis camp and Lewis turned it down claiming he was concentrating on regaining his WBC title... the truth being Lennox Lewis never ever wanted to fight Riddick Bowe.

Kid McCoy
07-17-2009, 02:24 PM
Lennox Lewis jab was nothing but a paw` it was a distracker not a weapon like Riddick Bowe`s, Lewis was easily "out-jabbed" by Frank Bruno and Vitali Klitschko, Holyfield held his own with Lewis in the jabbing, sorry but Bowe would have decapitad Lewis with his jab, Lewis just does not match-up to Bowe in any department of the sport of boxing, it is immaterial wether Bowes peak was 3yrs or 20yrs, if these 2 had met between 93 to 96 Bowe would have been the easy victor, Lewis never in his career did he produce a performance like those that Bowe produced, Lewis in his best ever performance won a split decision over Mercer, Mercer was then beaten by Jesse Ferguson that same Ferguson was butchered by Bowe as was former champ Mike Dokes who was on a 10 fight win streak, Bowe unfortunately "eat himself out of the title" bloating up to over 350lbs between fights, Bowe vs Golota 1 & 2 was as good as any heavyweight fights in boxing history and "Brutal" .. after those 2 fights "BOTH" Bowe and Golota was never the same fighters again... Lennox Lewis wanted `no-part` of any fighters who was at the top of their game in the 1990s Lewis only ever fought `bums, cans and has-beens` Lennox Lewis claim to fame is that he beat Tyson 11yrs after Buster Douglas had beaten Mighty Mike, 6yrs after Holyfield had finished off what was left of Tyson.. Lewis always boasted that Bowe was afraid to fight him, when infact nothing could have been further from the truth, The WBC ordered Bowe vs Lewis in 93, Bowe was the undisputed champion, Lewis was demanding a 50/50 purse split and options on Bowes next 5 fights should Bowe win, Bowe said,"no way" so the WBC threatened to strip Bowe of their belt if he did not agree, so Bowe said to the WBC "UP YOU" and threw their belt in the trash can, Bowe went on to defend his title for $30 million in a rematch with Holyfield, not the $3 million he was going to be paid for fighting Lewis... The Lewis camp seized on this and claimed for anyone who would listen that Bowe was afraid of their man... Bowe lost the closest decision in heavyweight history to Holyfield and Lewis got poleaxed by McCall in 1994, the Bowe camp made a legitimate offer of 10 million to the Lennox Lewis camp and Lewis turned it down claiming he was concentrating on regaining his WBC title... the truth being Lennox Lewis never ever wanted to fight Riddick Bowe.

And Bowe didn't? Bowe's sole great performance was against the cruiser-sized Holyfield, who fought the stupidest fight of his life that night. Bowe looked awful in the rematch and looked on his way out in the third against an ailing Holyfield before landing a Hail Mary shot. Which other great performances against top fighters did you have in mind which tell you Bowe beats Lewis as easily as you claim? Buster Mathis, Herbie Hide?

Lewis, Tyson, Tua, Ruddock, Foreman, Ibeabuchi, Holmes, Moorer, Morrison, Tucker were all top contenders during the 90s and Bowe fought precisely none of them. Lewis struggled with Mercer, Bruno, McCall? I don't recall Bowe fighting any of those three either.

Bowe ditched his WBC belt to avoid his mandatory Lewis, hot off his two round blowout of Ruddock, reneging on a prior agreement that the winners of Bowe-Holyfield and Lewis-Ruddock would face each other (btw, do you have a source for all those Lewis demands?) and instead he took on Ferguson, who wasn't even ranked. Dokes may have been on a winning streak but he wasn't ranked either, he was just a remnant of the 80s and had beaten no one of note save Ferguson.

Bowe's entire career is a would have or what if. Bottom line is he didn't. His career pales when compared with Lewis'.

Sugarj
07-17-2009, 02:48 PM
Hi Sonnybox, interesting rant there:

'Lennox Lewis jab was nothing but a paw` it was a distracker'.

Interesting thought and English, I doubt many would agree with you. Lewis is widely held to have one of the best jabs out of all the heavyweights in the 90s.

'Lewis was easily "out-jabbed" by Frank Bruno and Vitali Klitschko'.

True, Bruno did outjab him, but Lennox clearly neglected the jab for some reason that night, he wasn't the finished product when he was with Pepe Correa. As for Vitali, Lennox clearly had better days and was right to retire afterwards in his late 30s. There were many fights where Lennox showed a great jab, fast, heavy and accurate.

'Lewis just does not match-up to Bowe in any department of the sport of boxing'.

I think this is an outlandish statement. I do rate Bowe a bit higher in my ATG heavyweight list but come on!

'Lewis never in his career did he produce a performance like those that Bowe produced':

Both looked spectacular in different fights, Lewis looked terrific against Ruddock, Golota, McCall (second time), Grant and Tua. Bowe in Holyfield 1,3 and Hide.

'Bowe vs Golota 1 & 2 was as good as any heavyweight fights in boxing history'.

You are a touch prone to exaggeration, they weren't exactly the Thrilla in Manilla or Bowe vs Holyfield 1. They were pretty good, the first fight was clearly one sided in Golotas favour. In the rematch Bowe appeared to be too light and spindly, he showed great heart though. Save for the one knockdown Golota didn't receive an amazing amount of 'brutal' punishment in either fight.

'Lennox Lewis wanted `no-part` of any fighters who was at the top of their game in the 1990s':

Razor Ruddock (number one contender, just went distance with Tyson)
Frank Bruno (clearly at his best the night they met, soon to be WBC champ)
Ray Mercer (clearly at his best also)
Tommy Morrison (Not far off his best)
Shannon Briggs (Touted as the next best heavyweight, future champ)
Henry Akinwande (Poor performance but he was well rated at the time)
Andrew Golota (Had just given Bowe two beatings, many favoured him to beat Lewis)
Evander Holyfield (was hardly far past his best having just beaten Tyson and Moorer)

He chased Tyson after the latter had beaten Bruno and Seldon. Dont forget Tyson was considered number one again by many critics after these wins. Many thought he was nearly back to his best. Lewis (I believe) was paid step aside money so that Tyson could fight Holyfield.

Plus lets face it, Lewis fought just about every leading contender this century and stopped nearly all of them.

As for facing Bowe, you may be right about the politics, I dont know....at the time I heard so much BS I didn't know what to believe. If I was either I wouldn't want to face the other. Shame it didn't happen! I'm not a Lewis nuthugger, I'd lean towards Bowe if they actually met at their peaks but I think you have been overly critical of Lewis who is clearly a hall of famer.

mickey malone
07-17-2009, 05:26 PM
Leonard Robinson
Hagler Monzon
Sanchez Saddler
Duran Leonard (Benny)
Hearns Ketchel

sonnyboyx2
07-18-2009, 04:34 AM
Hi Sonnybox, interesting rant there:

'Lennox Lewis jab was nothing but a paw` it was a distracker'.

Interesting thought and English, I doubt many would agree with you. Lewis is widely held to have one of the best jabs out of all the heavyweights in the 90s.

'Lewis was easily "out-jabbed" by Frank Bruno and Vitali Klitschko'.

True, Bruno did outjab him, but Lennox clearly neglected the jab for some reason that night, he wasn't the finished product when he was with Pepe Correa. As for Vitali, Lennox clearly had better days and was right to retire afterwards in his late 30s. There were many fights where Lennox showed a great jab, fast, heavy and accurate.

'Lewis just does not match-up to Bowe in any department of the sport of boxing'.

I think this is an outlandish statement. I do rate Bowe a bit higher in my ATG heavyweight list but come on!

'Lewis never in his career did he produce a performance like those that Bowe produced':

Both looked spectacular in different fights, Lewis looked terrific against Ruddock, Golota, McCall (second time), Grant and Tua. Bowe in Holyfield 1,3 and Hide.

'Bowe vs Golota 1 & 2 was as good as any heavyweight fights in boxing history'.

You are a touch prone to exaggeration, they weren't exactly the Thrilla in Manilla or Bowe vs Holyfield 1. They were pretty good, the first fight was clearly one sided in Golotas favour. In the rematch Bowe appeared to be too light and spindly, he showed great heart though. Save for the one knockdown Golota didn't receive an amazing amount of 'brutal' punishment in either fight.

'Lennox Lewis wanted `no-part` of any fighters who was at the top of their game in the 1990s':

Razor Ruddock (number one contender, just went distance with Tyson)
Frank Bruno (clearly at his best the night they met, soon to be WBC champ)
Ray Mercer (clearly at his best also)
Tommy Morrison (Not far off his best)
Shannon Briggs (Touted as the next best heavyweight, future champ)
Henry Akinwande (Poor performance but he was well rated at the time)
Andrew Golota (Had just given Bowe two beatings, many favoured him to beat Lewis)
Evander Holyfield (was hardly far past his best having just beaten Tyson and Moorer)

He chased Tyson after the latter had beaten Bruno and Seldon. Dont forget Tyson was considered number one again by many critics after these wins. Many thought he was nearly back to his best. Lewis (I believe) was paid step aside money so that Tyson could fight Holyfield.

Plus lets face it, Lewis fought just about every leading contender this century and stopped nearly all of them.

As for facing Bowe, you may be right about the politics, I dont know....at the time I heard so much BS I didn't know what to believe. If I was either I wouldn't want to face the other. Shame it didn't happen! I'm not a Lewis nuthugger, I'd lean towards Bowe if they actually met at their peaks but I think you have been overly critical of Lewis who is clearly a hall of famer.There is always excuses for Lennox Lewis, ie he wasn`t at his best that night, he never trained, it was a lucky punch etc etc etc "Rubbish".. i was at the Lewis vs Ruddock fight and it was NOT a world title fight, it was designated as a title fight after the fight.. Razor Ruddock was "Damaged Goods" after taking 2 terrible beatings from Mike Tyson, Riddick Bowe was Undisputed Champion of the world he had 3 yes 3 mandatory defences to make, why fight Lewis for a purse of 3 million when he could fight Holyfield for $30 million, Bowe fought Jesse Ferguson because Ferguson had beaten Mercer in a final eliminator was was the IBF No1 contender, now if we are talking about ducking ones mandatorys then Lennox Lewis is the sports No1 ducker, as undisputed champion in 1999 Lewis was stripped of every version of the title for refusing to fight the No1 contenders, IBF belt for refusing to fight Chris Byrd, WBA belt for refusing to fight John Ruiz & the WBC for refusing to fight a rematch with No1 contender Vitali Klitschko... as for Lewis fighting the better opposition than Bowe, that laughable, David Tua weighed over 255lbs and was the fattest man to ever fight for the title, Morrison was at the tail-end of his career after being hammered by Michael Bent and was HIV positive, Andrew Golota was given sedative medication in his dressing room before the fight after taking a panic attack, Lewis knew of this so rightly "jumped on him", Akinwande, Grant, Botha, Butler, Jackson, Mavrovick was all class c fighters who never deserved a title fight... in 1996 Mike Tyson was champion and Lewis the No1 contender, Lennox Lewis was looking at a career highest purse of $15 million+ and a gauranteed title shot, yet he chickened out, he wanted nothing to do with the still dangerous Tyson so he sold his title shot to Holyfield for a meagre $2 million and waited another 6yrs for Tyson to completely self-destruct, Lennox Lewis fought a draw with Holyfield which most fans thought he won yet in their return fight Holyfield was clearly "Robbed" of the decision... always excuses, excuses, excuses for Lennox Lewis when the truth is that Lewis was an oppotunist who never ever fought a single fighter who was at the top of his game other than Oliver McCall in 94 and Vitali Klitschko, ... Riddick Bowe made the correct career decision by fighting Holyfield in a rematch for the bigger payday yet he is ridiculed for doing so, yet Lennox Lewis who abregated his responsibility to the sport of boxing by refusing to fight the No1 contenders is never called into question for doing it

F l i c k e r
07-18-2009, 04:46 AM
Floyd Mayweather Jr.
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7256/46604992rb7.jpg


VS


http://media.lunch.com/d/d7/182906.png?2
Pernell Whitaker

princemanspoper
07-18-2009, 05:32 AM
Riddick bowe looked like a fish out of water anytime a fighter boxed from the outside.A washed up tony tubbs did it and got robbed ,Evander holyfield did it in the second fight and golota did it in their series

lewis would have torn bowe a new *******,all we ever saw from bowe was that he was a very good offensive inside fighter who lacked any sort of defense whatsoever,he was a very good athlete who despite what you say didn't have that much of a chin

sonnyboyx2
07-18-2009, 10:49 AM
Riddick bowe looked like a fish out of water anytime a fighter boxed from the outside.A washed up tony tubbs did it and got robbed ,Evander holyfield did it in the second fight and golota did it in their series

lewis would have torn bowe a new *******,all we ever saw from bowe was that he was a very good offensive inside fighter who lacked any sort of defense whatsoever,he was a very good athlete who despite what you say didn't have that much of a chinBowe took the best a peak Holyfield could throw and beat Holyfield to a pulp, yet Holyfield beat Lennox Lewis to a pulp in their return fight but was "robbed" of the decision.. Bowe`s chin was good wheras Lewis chin was made of glass, when he got poleaxed by McCall he had to be helped from the ring 10 minutes after being counted out as his eyes was still glassy and he had no-legs under him, when Rahman wacked him out the referee could have counted to 100 and Lewis would not have beaten the count, Bowe is a different animal all together than McCall or Rahman, Lewis never in his career fought a fighter who would have caused Bowe problems other than the heavily sedated Golota who was never the same after his 2 fights with Bowe...

#1Assassin
07-18-2009, 10:57 AM
Leonard Robinson
Hagler Monzon
Sanchez Saddler
Duran Leonard (Benny)
Hearns Ketchel

i assume this is a joke, but the poster seems serious.

also lol at the liston-marciano one before.

fight_professor
07-18-2009, 11:00 AM
I'm a big Bowe fan, he may even be my favorite heavyweight of the 90s. I would just lean towards him in a match with Lewis, his chin was terrific whereas Lewis's was suspect and both guys punched hard! As for skills it was close, but lets face it, it was only three years before Bowe's peak in 1991/92 where in 1988 Lewis clearly beat Bowe in the Olympics.

Bro, the amateurs and pros are different worlds. Mitch Green beat Ali in the amateurs, yet who the **** is Mitch Green?

Bowe would win a pro fight with Lewis, Prime v Prime. the Bowe who beat Holyfield in F1, he beats any version of Lewis ever. That Bowe is one of the best HW of alltime.

princemanspoper
07-18-2009, 11:43 AM
Bowe took the best a peak Holyfield could throw and beat Holyfield to a pulp, yet Holyfield beat Lennox Lewis to a pulp in their return fight but was "robbed" of the decision.. Bowe`s chin was good wheras Lewis chin was made of glass, when he got poleaxed by McCall he had to be helped from the ring 10 minutes after being counted out as his eyes was still glassy and he had no-legs under him, when Rahman wacked him out the referee could have counted to 100 and Lewis would not have beaten the count, Bowe is a different animal all together than McCall or Rahman, Lewis never in his career fought a fighter who would have caused Bowe problems other than the heavily sedated Golota who was never the same after his 2 fights with Bowe...

Riddicke bowe's most impressive showing is against a man whom he outweighed by 30 pounds each time who twice fell into the trap of fighting a much larger heavyweight on the inside

bowe's chin was not good,taking holyfields best punches does not equal good chin,bowe always struggled greatly against a boxer who could fight from the outside

bowe never fought someone like lewis hell he didn't fight many good heavyweights all together,


No one with who doesn't have **** in their eyes could give holyfield more than 5 rounds in their rematch,where's no one in their right mind could give bowe more than 4 rounds against a washed up tony tubbs

bowe fought a man in his own size in golota and was destroyed twice

mickey malone
07-18-2009, 11:58 AM
Bro, the amateurs and pros are different worlds. Mitch Green beat Ali in the amateurs, yet who the **** is Mitch Green?

Bowe would win a pro fight with Lewis, Prime v Prime. the Bowe who beat Holyfield in F1, he beats any version of Lewis ever. That Bowe is one of the best HW of alltime.
Mitch Green was also only the 2nd man to go the distance with Tyson, one hell of a scrap to.. I think that might mean something..

fight_professor
07-18-2009, 12:46 PM
Point being what happens in the amateurs doesnt mean **** once you're in the pros. Sorry, but it doesnt. If Ali had fought Green 1000 times in the pros, he'd win 1000 times-ergo the amateur loss is irrelevant.

Ditto Bowe > Lewis. (Not the 1000 times bit!)

princemanspoper
07-18-2009, 01:12 PM
Point being Mitch Green never fought Ali you retard.He was three years old when ali won a gold medal at the olympics do the *ucking math

Sugarj
07-18-2009, 01:42 PM
Captain Sam, bless you! I really hope Ali did lose to another Mitch Green in the amateurs! The one that fought Tyson in 1985 looked quite youthful. Hee hee.

I agree with you about the amateur game though. My point was that Bowe's peak was only 3 years after getting stopped!!!! by Lewis in the Olympics. No Roy Jonesesque points robbery, no three judges with itchy button pressing fingers! The loss was probably still fresh in Bowe's mind too. Ali's peak came 7 years after turning pro. Just about all the legends of the sport lost amateur fights.

Check out my previous posts though, I've maintained that I would lean towards Bowe in a match with Lewis if they both met at their peak.

sonnyboyx2
07-18-2009, 01:47 PM
Riddicke bowe's most impressive showing is against a man whom he outweighed by 30 pounds each time who twice fell into the trap of fighting a much larger heavyweight on the inside

bowe's chin was not good,taking holyfields best punches does not equal good chin,bowe always struggled greatly against a boxer who could fight from the outside

bowe never fought someone like lewis hell he didn't fight many good heavyweights all together,


No one with who doesn't have **** in their eyes could give holyfield more than 5 rounds in their rematch,where's no one in their right mind could give bowe more than 4 rounds against a washed up tony tubbs

bowe fought a man in his own size in golota and was destroyed twice

Bowe fought his share of decent heavyweights and many undefeated fighters, Bowe poleaxed Lionel Butler in his pro debut the same Butler Lewis chose to defend his heavyweight title against when Butler had around 10 losses on his record, Bowe defeated unbeaten Larry Donald, he Poleaxed Jorge Loius Gonzalez the same Gonzalez who had beaten Bowe in the amateurs and had also beaten Lennox Lewis (thrice) in the amateurs, Bowe KOd former Heavyweight champions Seldon (1rd) Thomas (9rds) Tubbs (pts) Dokes (1rd) Bowe also hammered Tyrell Biggs and undefeated Buster Mathis jr. he also beat the very tough and ruggered Pierre Cotzeire in a great elimination fight to set up a shot at the undefeated Heavyweight Champ Evander Holyfield... Bowe fought his fare share of fighters who was at the top of their game.. unlike Lennox Lewis who only ever fought fighters that had been exposed or was on the slide

Kid McCoy
07-18-2009, 02:38 PM
Bowe fought his share of decent heavyweights and many undefeated fighters, Bowe poleaxed Lionel Butler in his pro debut the same Butler Lewis chose to defend his heavyweight title against when Butler had around 10 losses on his record, Bowe defeated unbeaten Larry Donald, he Poleaxed Jorge Loius Gonzalez the same Gonzalez who had beaten Bowe in the amateurs and had also beaten Lennox Lewis (thrice) in the amateurs, Bowe KOd former Heavyweight champions Seldon (1rd) Thomas (9rds) Tubbs (pts) Dokes (1rd) Bowe also hammered Tyrell Biggs and undefeated Buster Mathis jr. he also beat the very tough and ruggered Pierre Cotzeire in a great elimination fight to set up a shot at the undefeated Heavyweight Champ Evander Holyfield... Bowe fought his fare share of fighters who was at the top of their game.. unlike Lennox Lewis who only ever fought fighters that had been exposed or was on the slide

Nice bit of spinning there again. If Lewis had fought those guys you'd be trashing him for it. It had been nearly a decade since Dokes was champion. He hadn't beaten anyone of note for years. Thomas, Biggs and Tubbs were faded remnants of the 80s and all had suffered various personal problems by that point. Tubbs gave Bowe a hard fight too. Decent names for a prospect to get on the resume, but hardly the stuff of legends. Lewis actually beat Biggs too, but no doubt he only fought him once he'd been "exposed" by Bowe.

The Mathis, Gonzalez and Donald fights were seen as what they were - easy set-ups. So was Golota, for that matter. The fact that he made hard work of Gonzalez and Donald is pretty revealing. Bowe was also lucky not to get DQ'd for punching Mathis while he was down Roy Jones-style. And citing Seldon as a "former heavyweight champion" is a joke.

fight_professor
07-18-2009, 02:46 PM
Point being Mitch Green never fought Ali you retard.He was three years old when ali won a gold medal at the olympics do the *ucking math

I may have the first name wrong. Read Muhammad Ali: His life and times by Hauser. Its something Greene. Cat beat Ali in the amateurs...

The point stands.

I'll find the exact name from the book.

That's the benefit of being able to read. :werd:

fight_professor
07-18-2009, 02:48 PM
Captain Sam, bless you! I really hope Ali did lose to another Mitch Green in the amateurs! The one that fought Tyson in 1985 looked quite youthful. Hee hee.



As stated, clearly I may have the first name wrong. I'll check the book and get the guys whole name. :boxing:

Kid McCoy
07-18-2009, 02:54 PM
As stated, clearly I may have the first name wrong. I'll check the book and get the guys whole name. :boxing:

I think Kent Green is the guy you had in mind.

fight_professor
07-18-2009, 02:55 PM
pg 361.

The guy was KENT GREEN.

He beat Ali in the amateurs (KO'd him infact).

Got the first name wrong, from memory. I have read a huge number of books on HW history and all the great fighters. Data can get muddled, but it comes thru in the end.

DonTaseMeBrah
07-18-2009, 03:07 PM
any serious ones?

amir khan vs aaron pryor.

mickey malone
07-18-2009, 03:10 PM
Bowe would never have beaten Lewis in a million years, not a hope.. He knew it in his heart, mind & soul.. He was undisciplined, reckless & unreliable.. His demise exemplifies this.. He looked good in 5 or 6 fights, then splat!... All over.. Brief tampering with the WBO, then out.. Won't even go into what happened after that.. Can't be compared to Louis in any way , shape or form...
With regard to THE Mitch Green.. Anyone remember the street fight with Tyson??

sonnyboyx2
07-18-2009, 04:23 PM
Nice bit of spinning there again. If Lewis had fought those guys you'd be trashing him for it. It had been nearly a decade since Dokes was champion. He hadn't beaten anyone of note for years. Thomas, Biggs and Tubbs were faded remnants of the 80s and all had suffered various personal problems by that point. Tubbs gave Bowe a hard fight too. Decent names for a prospect to get on the resume, but hardly the stuff of legends. Lewis actually beat Biggs too, but no doubt he only fought him once he'd been "exposed" by Bowe.

The Mathis, Gonzalez and Donald fights were seen as what they were - easy set-ups. So was Golota, for that matter. The fact that he made hard work of Gonzalez and Donald is pretty revealing. Bowe was also lucky not to get DQ'd for punching Mathis while he was down Roy Jones-style. And citing Seldon as a "former heavyweight champion" is a joke.

Thomas, Biggs,Seldon & Donald are far better names on Bowes record than what Lewis fought on the way up, 40yrs old Chanet, 40yrs old cruiser Ocassio, McCrory (cruiserweight), Dan Murphy, Levi Billups, Mike Dixon... Bowe took on undefeated up and coming fighters fight after fight, Lewis took on tomato cans with loads of losses on their record and who was on the slide, Bowe never struggled with Gonzalez or Donald, he completely took the undefeated Gonzalez apart before knocking him unconcious, Bowe also had the boxing skills to hand Donald his first career defeat, Lennox Lewis was an oppotunist who only ever fought fighters who had been exposed and was on the downslide, Riddick Bowe was a completely different kind of fighter who wanted to prove he was the best and took on lots of undefeated fighters who was unexposed unto fightnight...sorry if the truth hurts

Gettin Jiggy
07-18-2009, 04:36 PM
pg 361.

The guy was KENT GREEN.

He beat Ali in the amateurs (KO'd him infact).

Got the first name wrong, from memory. I have read a huge number of books on HW history and all the great fighters. Data can get muddled, but it comes thru in the end.

what? ali was knocked out. was he out cold ot just stopped by the ref, and did he revenge the lost?

Kid McCoy
07-18-2009, 05:44 PM
Thomas, Biggs,Seldon & Donald are far better names on Bowes record than what Lewis fought on the way up, 40yrs old Chanet, 40yrs old cruiser Ocassio, McCrory (cruiserweight), Dan Murphy, Levi Billups, Mike Dixon... Bowe took on undefeated up and coming fighters fight after fight, Lewis took on tomato cans with loads of losses on their record and who was on the slide, Bowe never struggled with Gonzalez or Donald, he completely took the undefeated Gonzalez apart before knocking him unconcious, Bowe also had the boxing skills to hand Donald his first career defeat, Lennox Lewis was an oppotunist who only ever fought fighters who had been exposed and was on the downslide, Riddick Bowe was a completely different kind of fighter who wanted to prove he was the best and took on lots of undefeated fighters who was unexposed unto fightnight...sorry if the truth hurts

It might hurt if you'd actually told me some truths. Who had Donald and Gonzalez beaten to make Bowe beating them such a feat? I wasn't particularly impressed with Bowe's showings against those two, especially taking into account the level of opposition. An unbeaten record is meaningless if you haven't actually fought anyone worthwhile. Duane Bobick had a shiny 38-0 record at one point, but the first time he stepped up in class he got blasted out in a round.

Whatever you spin about these two can just as easily be spun the other way. On his way up Bowe fought 15 opponents with less than 10 wins to their name. Impressive? I note you missed out Lewis beating former heavyweight champion Mike Weaver, although no doubt the faded 80s contenders Bowe beat were a grade above the faded 80s contenders Lewis beat. Lewis also defeated 35-0 Gary Mason, who had actually beaten Biggs before Bowe did. No doubt that undefeated record can't hold a candle to the 16-0 of Donald and 14-0 of Mathis. Likewise Mavrovic's 27-0 and Grant's 31-0 not a patch on Gonzalez' 23-0 and Hide's 26-0.

Sugarj
07-18-2009, 08:29 PM
I dont think Ali was ever knocked out (counted out) as an amateur, but I think he was stopped twice. I may be wrong here, Ali's amazing amateur record of over 120fights didn't contain many losses at all though.

I seem to remember reading that he was handed a second round TKO the night after losing his virginity. Ellis beat him in the amateurs too.

Ali's amateur career began when he was twelve, remember........ he was just a kid, amazing that he won the light heavyweight gold medal at 18.

-Swizzy-
07-19-2009, 03:59 AM
Well?

For Me
Liston/Marciano
Hagler/Hopkins
Sanchez/Arguello
Ray Leonard/Pryor

Discuss

easy, let me help you out. Liston would cream Marciano. Hagler would beat hopkins. SRL would school pryor.

sanchez/arguello is the only hard one for me.

sonnyboyx2
07-19-2009, 04:12 AM
It might hurt if you'd actually told me some truths. Who had Donald and Gonzalez beaten to make Bowe beating them such a feat? I wasn't particularly impressed with Bowe's showings against those two, especially taking into account the level of opposition. An unbeaten record is meaningless if you haven't actually fought anyone worthwhile. Duane Bobick had a shiny 38-0 record at one point, but the first time he stepped up in class he got blasted out in a round.

Whatever you spin about these two can just as easily be spun the other way. On his way up Bowe fought 15 opponents with less than 10 wins to their name. Impressive? I note you missed out Lewis beating former heavyweight champion Mike Weaver, although no doubt the faded 80s contenders Bowe beat were a grade above the faded 80s contenders Lewis beat. Lewis also defeated 35-0 Gary Mason, who had actually beaten Biggs before Bowe did. No doubt that undefeated record can't hold a candle to the 16-0 of Donald and 14-0 of Mathis. Likewise Mavrovic's 27-0 and Grant's 31-0 not a patch on Gonzalez' 23-0 and Hide's 26-0.

Mike Weaver was nearly 40yrs old and was working as a sparring partner for Lewis so he was totally exposed, Gary Mason was rather fortunate to beat Biggs due to a controvercial stoppage from the british referee, Michael Grant had been exposed as weak chinned by Andrew Golota so Lewis chose to fight Grant rather than the No1 contender John Ruiz who held 2 victories over Evander Holyfield, Ruiz even put Holyfield on the canvas something Lewis never came close to doing, Herbie Hide was the undefeated WBO champion and had called-out Lennox Lewis `live` on British TV for several years but Lewis wanted nothing to do with Hide, Riddick Bowe fought Hide only after Lewis had turned down a multi-million pound offer to face Bowe, Jorge Loius Gonzalez was a far more dangerous opponent than Michael Grant and Lewis knew that coz Gonzalez had beaten Lewis several times in the amateur ranks... the bottom line is that Lennox Lewis TWICE had the oppotunity to fight Riddick Bowe, he `priced himself out` of a first fight and refused a career highest purse the second time, simply because he did not fancy his chances of beating Riddick Bowe.

mickey malone
07-19-2009, 05:12 AM
Mike Weaver was nearly 40yrs old and was working as a sparring partner for Lewis so he was totally exposed, Gary Mason was rather fortunate to beat Biggs due to a controvercial stoppage from the british referee, Michael Grant had been exposed as weak chinned by Andrew Golota so Lewis chose to fight Grant rather than the No1 contender John Ruiz who held 2 victories over Evander Holyfield, Ruiz even put Holyfield on the canvas something Lewis never came close to doing, Herbie Hide was the undefeated WBO champion and had called-out Lennox Lewis `live` on British TV for several years but Lewis wanted nothing to do with Hide, Riddick Bowe fought Hide only after Lewis had turned down a multi-million pound offer to face Bowe, Jorge Loius Gonzalez was a far more dangerous opponent than Michael Grant and Lewis knew that coz Gonzalez had beaten Lewis several times in the amateur ranks... the bottom line is that Lennox Lewis TWICE had the oppotunity to fight Riddick Bowe, he `priced himself out` of a first fight and refused a career highest purse the second time, simply because he did not fancy his chances of beating Riddick Bowe.
An olympic gold would'a looked good on Bowes resume, & I wouldn't normally bring the amateurs into it, but with a gold nugget at stake, Lewis didn't just beat Bowe, he beat him emphaticly.. Probably his easiest victory in the competition.. It wasn't even close.. Bowe got polaxed with head gear on for God's sake!

0Rooster4Life0
07-19-2009, 05:54 AM
I am Not sure if Anyone has Mentioned This, But i find it tough to prodict Foreman Vs Liston.


Ive always said i dont think anyone could stand toe to toe with Foreman and Win, But i think Liston may just have a HUGE chance, His Jab was great , He was Super Powerful. It would be Foreman Vs Lyle all over again, But More Brutal. I find it hard to pick the winner in this one.


But if i had to choose id have to pick Foreman.



ROOSTER

mickey malone
07-19-2009, 06:11 AM
I am Not sure if Anyone has Mentioned This, But i find it tough to prodict Foreman Vs Liston.


Ive always said i dont think anyone could stand toe to toe with Foreman and Win, But i think Liston may just have a HUGE chance, His Jab was great , He was Super Powerful. It would be Foreman Vs Lyle all over again, But More Brutal. I find it hard to pick the winner in this one.


But if i had to choose id have to pick Foreman.



ROOSTER
Yeah... Nigh on impossible, but I'd sway towards Big George on that one.. Mine would be SRR Vs SRL.. Probably a draw lol..

princemanspoper
07-19-2009, 07:43 AM
Just admit that you haven't seen a sonny liston fight outside of those with ali and patterson

And SRR would probably duck SRL like he ducked virtually every other top WW of his era

mickey malone
07-19-2009, 09:42 AM
Just admit that you haven't seen a sonny liston fight outside of those with ali and patterson

And SRR would probably duck SRL like he ducked virtually every other top WW of his era
Hello Policemancopper, how are you zzzzzzz AGAIN lol...
I've also seen Machen, Williams, Folley, Martin & Joiner.. And guess what?
Liston was a poor mans Bruno lol..... Reason: Bruno had more heart & faced better competition...
Now.... Would I come out with that, if I opened my legs for bully boy posters?

princemanspoper
07-19-2009, 11:03 AM
lmao at this joker.Always the comedian is old malone.You know I was feeling a bit down and out 20 minutes ago,had a nasty case of the blues,then I thought of mickey malones posts and came here to see his most outstanding piece yet and could not help but laugh

than you malone ya pissed up rat fink,than you or giving me that chuckle when I needed it most


now stop running to boxrec for information and always remember keep your legs closed at all times

GJC
07-19-2009, 11:59 AM
Stanley Ketchel and Harry Greb would have been an interesting fight.

Kid McCoy
07-19-2009, 12:29 PM
Mike Weaver was nearly 40yrs old and was working as a sparring partner for Lewis so he was totally exposed, Gary Mason was rather fortunate to beat Biggs due to a controvercial stoppage from the british referee, Michael Grant had been exposed as weak chinned by Andrew Golota so Lewis chose to fight Grant rather than the No1 contender John Ruiz who held 2 victories over Evander Holyfield, Ruiz even put Holyfield on the canvas something Lewis never came close to doing, Herbie Hide was the undefeated WBO champion and had called-out Lennox Lewis `live` on British TV for several years but Lewis wanted nothing to do with Hide, Riddick Bowe fought Hide only after Lewis had turned down a multi-million pound offer to face Bowe, Jorge Loius Gonzalez was a far more dangerous opponent than Michael Grant and Lewis knew that coz Gonzalez had beaten Lewis several times in the amateur ranks... the bottom line is that Lennox Lewis TWICE had the oppotunity to fight Riddick Bowe, he `priced himself out` of a first fight and refused a career highest purse the second time, simply because he did not fancy his chances of beating Riddick Bowe.

So Weaver was "exposed", but Thomas apparently wasn't, despite a heroin addiction and having lost three of his last four fights? Grant had one of those undefeated records you keep touting, but had nonetheless also been "exposed"? That's in contrast to Golota, who was in no way "exposed" by Pouha. Come on, at least be consistent.

Regardless of the questionable ratings, it was Grant, not Ruiz who was being promoted as the next big thing, and that was the fight to be made. Ruiz' main claim to fame prior to facing Holyfield was being sparked cold in a round by Tua. Lewis had already vacated the WBA belt and fought Grant by the time Ruiz and Holyfield met the first time. I'm sure if King really fancied Ruiz' chances against Lewis the fight would have happened.

Herbie Hide? Who cares? The WBO had an even lower standing then than it does now, so "undefeated WBO champion" doesn't mean a whole lot. Lewis was busy unifying the division with Holyfield while Hide was fighting Willi Fischer and Damon Reed. Hide was also a "cruiser", or does that only count when Lewis was fighting them?

So Gonzalez beat Lewis in the amateurs. Kent Green beat Ali as an amateur and Henry Tillman beat Tyson as an amateur. Lewis also beat Bowe in the amateurs but I'm sure you have a slew of excuses for that. It doesn't have much bearing on their pro careers though and Gonzalez turned out to be little more than a journeyman.

The bottom line is Bowe vs Lewis was the biggest heavyweight fight out there after their respective wins over Holyfield and Ruddock. Bowe binned his belt, reneging on a prior agreement, and instead opted to defend against two journeymen. You're the only person I've come across who seems to think that was a good career move for Bowe.

HughJass
07-19-2009, 01:20 PM
tyson vs dempsey would have been a quick but brutal fight.tyson was very elusive,dempsey was powerful,so was tyson powerful but dempsey could take a punch,so i pretty much think it boils down to how dempsey dealt with speed.i cant pick a winner?

jerzeytib
07-19-2009, 08:31 PM
tyson/marciano

fight_professor
07-19-2009, 08:38 PM
tyson vs dempsey would have been a quick but brutal fight.tyson was very elusive,dempsey was powerful,so was tyson powerful but dempsey could take a punch,so i pretty much think it boils down to how dempsey dealt with speed.i cant pick a winner?

Are you mad?

Tyson runs thru Dempsey. Bigger, faster, more powerful, amazing combo puncher, more elusive. Mike is easily the greatest of the smaller HW.

Tyson KO 1-2.

mickey malone
07-19-2009, 11:18 PM
lmao at this joker.Always the comedian is old malone.You know I was feeling a bit down and out 20 minutes ago,had a nasty case of the blues,then I thought of mickey malones posts and came here to see his most outstanding piece yet and could not help but laugh

than you malone ya pissed up rat fink,than you or giving me that chuckle when I needed it most


now stop running to boxrec for information and always remember keep your legs closed at all times
Oh... I'm sorry to hear you've been a little depressed..
Wouldn't have been while watching a re run of Jimmy Young sending Foreman into premature retirement by any chance, would it?......Always the comedian!....lol

sonnyboyx2
07-20-2009, 06:21 AM
So Weaver was "exposed", but Thomas apparently wasn't, despite a heroin addiction and having lost three of his last four fights? Grant had one of those undefeated records you keep touting, but had nonetheless also been "exposed"? That's in contrast to Golota, who was in no way "exposed" by Pouha. Come on, at least be consistent.

Regardless of the questionable ratings, it was Grant, not Ruiz who was being promoted as the next big thing, and that was the fight to be made. Ruiz' main claim to fame prior to facing Holyfield was being sparked cold in a round by Tua. Lewis had already vacated the WBA belt and fought Grant by the time Ruiz and Holyfield met the first time. I'm sure if King really fancied Ruiz' chances against Lewis the fight would have happened.

Herbie Hide? Who cares? The WBO had an even lower standing then than it does now, so "undefeated WBO champion" doesn't mean a whole lot. Lewis was busy unifying the division with Holyfield while Hide was fighting Willi Fischer and Damon Reed. Hide was also a "cruiser", or does that only count when Lewis was fighting them?

So Gonzalez beat Lewis in the amateurs. Kent Green beat Ali as an amateur and Henry Tillman beat Tyson as an amateur. Lewis also beat Bowe in the amateurs but I'm sure you have a slew of excuses for that. It doesn't have much bearing on their pro careers though and Gonzalez turned out to be little more than a journeyman.

The bottom line is Bowe vs Lewis was the biggest heavyweight fight out there after their respective wins over Holyfield and Ruddock. Bowe binned his belt, reneging on a prior agreement, and instead opted to defend against two journeymen. You're the only person I've come across who seems to think that was a good career move for Bowe.

The reason Bowe binned the belt was that Lewis was demanding a 50/50 purse split with the undisputed Heavyweight champion and options on Bowes next 5 fights which is ridiculous, Lewis did not want to fight Bowe, Lewis turned down 10 million in 95 from the Bowe camp saying he was consentrating on regaining his WBC title, the truth is Lewis never wanted to fight Bowe... in a recent interview with Evander Holyfield who was asked who the best fighter was he had ever fought Holyfield said Bowe was the best by some way

Sugarj
07-20-2009, 06:49 AM
I suppose using Holyfield as the common opponent Bowe does seem to shade Lewis based on performances. Styles do of course make fights but Lewis's performances against a post prime Holyfield (1999-onwards) were not as impressive as Bowe's performances against a prime 92-95 Holyfield.