View Full Version : Sonny Liston vs. Joe Frazier


boxingbuff
07-15-2009, 05:17 PM
Would this be a duplicate of the Forman-Frazier fights?

Or would Smokin' Joe Frazier find Sonny Liston an easier opponent?

What are your thoughts?

Thank You

mickey malone
07-15-2009, 06:14 PM
Would this be a duplicate of the Forman-Frazier fights?

Or would Smokin' Joe Frazier find Sonny Liston an easier opponent?

What are your thoughts?

Thank You
Frazier would have been a nightmare for Liston..

1. He wouldn't have been intimidated
2. He was too fast for Liston
3. He had more heart than Liston
4. He hit hard as hard as Liston

Dynamite Glove
07-15-2009, 06:30 PM
I think liston would've dominated him with his jab.

plus, liston's crew was always ****ing around with that peppermint oil liniment for his 'hurt shoulder' what it really was, was a way for liston to blind his opponents for a few rounds.

▀ringer
07-15-2009, 06:37 PM
Nice matchup.

I can't see Liston cutting down Frazier in the way Foreman did ; I just can't. He doesn't have that raw punching power that George had.

Not saying he doesn't pack a nice punch in his own right, but I just don't see it being comparable to Foreman's.

Liston would probably want to keep Joe on the end of his jab in this one.

And I just don't see that working ; when have you ever seen Frazier content to stay on the end of his opponet's jab?

I'd expect Liston to win the early rounds, but Frazier to gradually close the gap and work his way inside as he always did.

Sonny may be able to put Joe down, but he wouldn't have the power to keep him down. Hell, how many times did Foreman drop Joe, only to see him get up and come back for more?

I'd pick Frazier to chop him down in the late rounds, somewhere between 10 and 13.

TheGreatA
07-15-2009, 06:37 PM
I would pick Liston to beat Frazier.

Frazier's management didn't really want any part of even an old Sonny Liston. I'm not sure if an old Liston would have been able to take the pressure then but he was always a threat due to his power.

Oasis_Lad
07-15-2009, 06:38 PM
As much as I love Frazier, I'd pick Liston in this one.

billionaire
07-15-2009, 06:44 PM
frazier is overratted so much, listons jabs in his face all day.....then cuts him down like floyd patterson.....round 6 tko liston....

mickey malone
07-16-2009, 11:09 AM
frazier is overratted so much, listons jabs in his face all day.....then cuts him down like floyd patterson.....round 6 tko liston....
Frazier had excellent head movement.. He's also faced and beaten one of the best jabbers in the businees, who also outjabbed Liston easily.. Liston would miss, tire & lose..

Southpaw Stinger
07-16-2009, 11:10 AM
The last they'd see of Frazier would be on a radar screen.

Sugarj
07-16-2009, 11:39 AM
I'd pick Liston too, it wouldn't be quite as one sided as the Foreman fights but I favour Liston in every department.

mickey malone
07-16-2009, 02:03 PM
Wake up fella's!... Liston was an overrated bully & relied too much on intimidation tactics.. He's around 12 or 13 on my list.. Frazier's far too brave & lively, & would plunder him, b4 unleashing the left hook around the 13th..

fight_professor
07-16-2009, 02:15 PM
Liston was a marvellous HW Malone. If not for Ali, who is clearly HW GOAT, Sonny would have dominated the 60's. His jab was superb, excellent power in both hands, tons of heart (Marty Marshall fight foughton with a broken jaw) and skill.

I love Smoke, but he gets broken down behind the jab, and then executed like so many against Liston.

Liston by late stoppage for me.

mickey malone
07-16-2009, 02:28 PM
Liston was a marvellous HW Malone. If not for Ali, who is clearly HW GOAT, Sonny would have dominated the 60's. His jab was superb, excellent power in both hands, tons of heart (Marty Marshall fight foughton with a broken jaw) and skill.

I love Smoke, but he gets broken down behind the jab, and then executed like so many against Liston.

Liston by late stoppage for me.
Opposites attract old boy.. I disagree...

TheGreatA
07-16-2009, 02:37 PM
Wake up fella's!... Liston was an overrated bully & relied too much on intimidation tactics.. He's around 12 or 13 on my list.. Frazier's far too brave & lively, & would plunder him, b4 unleashing the left hook around the 13th..

I just don't see how he was a "bully". If Liston was a bully then so was Foreman, since they both were stopped by Ali (except Liston was past his prime against a prime Ali).

Frazier coming right at Liston would simply make it easier for him. He didn't struggle against fighters who took it to him, a lot of people did, he struggled with movers. Ali beat him that way, Machen troubled him, Whitehurst went the distance.

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3:40

Old Liston giving a beating to the tough journeyman "Scrap Iron" Johnson whom Frazier said gave him one of his toughest fights:

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GJC
07-16-2009, 03:09 PM
I think that Frazier would do better than against Foreman but still fancy Liston for this match up.
One thing no one has mentioned is Liston's freakish reach which was actually longer than Foreman's.
That jab and that reach got to go with Liston.

mickey malone
07-16-2009, 03:42 PM
I'll never be converted to Listenism.. This is a guy who was backed by hoods to do a job.. Against mainly bums, he excelled & got a shot at the title.. Spends nearly 7 rounds punching air & then pops his shoulder (reputedly).. Then he gets a rematch, & gets flopped in the first by a punch that was practised in a swimming pool.. With the exception of Patterson, I really can't think of what's significant about him.. He certainly didn't have much heart did he? And it definitely sees Ali as more than just 'the goat'..

TheGreatA
07-16-2009, 04:02 PM
I'll never be converted to Listenism.. This is a guy who was backed by hoods to do a job.. Against mainly bums, he excelled & got a shot at the title.. Spends nearly 7 rounds punching air & then pops his shoulder (reputedly).. Then he gets a rematch, & gets flopped in the first by a punch that was practised in a swimming pool.. With the exception of Patterson, I really can't think of what's significant about him.. He certainly didn't have much heart did he? And it definitely sees Ali as more than just 'the goat'..

He cleaned out the heavyweight division before fighting Ali who is usually recognized as the greatest heavyweight of all time.

I've seen film of Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams and they certainly do not seem to be bums to me. Even fighters like Roy Harris, Nino Valdes, Mike DeJohn, Johnny Summerlin, Wayne Bethea, Henry Clark were all top 10 ranked contenders.

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Liston had his nose broken in the first round.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/TheManchine/Signaturet/listonwilliams.jpg

Rematch:

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Squabbles94806
07-16-2009, 04:18 PM
Would this be a duplicate of the Forman-Frazier fights?

Or would Smokin' Joe Frazier find Sonny Liston an easier opponent?

What are your thoughts?

Thank You

I'd give it to Frazier, but Liston would definitely hurt him. I don't think it'll be a replica of the Foreman fight, Liston's shorter than Foreman.

boxingbuff
07-16-2009, 05:20 PM
Styles make fights and Joe Frazier was made for Sonny Liston.

Liston would use his jab,which was powerfull enough to knock out some fighters teeth.Liston would uppercut Frazier in the same manner as Foreman.

Joe was a slow starter,and Liston would hurt Joe early and often.Joe's style of keep coming forward no matter what.....Like after being knocked down twice by Oscar Bonevena,but got up and came right back into him.The same as he did against Foreman.Liston had awesome punching power in both hands,and would jab,hook,uppercut Frazier.

Also,Sonny Liston had a great chin...Nobody talks about this.

I say Liston in 3 short brutal rounds.Frazier would never get started.

fight_professor
07-16-2009, 05:41 PM
Yeah Liston had the dimensions of a super heavy in terms of reach, fist size etc.

He was a great HW. In a who beats who list, primes, I rank him only behind Ali and Holmes for certain, possibly Louis, Tyson and Foreman too.

boxingbuff
07-16-2009, 05:43 PM
[QUOTE=TheGreatA;5699252]He cleaned out the heavyweight division before fighting Ali who is usually recognized as the greatest heavyweight of all time.

I've seen film of Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams and they certainly do not seem to be bums to me. Even fighters like Roy Harris, Nino Valdes, Mike DeJohn, Johnny Summerlin, Wayne Bethea, Henry Clark were all top 10 ranked contenders.

I have seen these Liston fights also.These guys were all very,very good.Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams had awesome punching power and a murdereous left hook,and Liston KO'd him in two brutal battles.Machen and Folley were very good boxers.Read Joe Frazier's book and what he said about Machen.Mike DeJohn was also a very heavy hitter.Nino Valdes was the Big Cuban.Your right,Liston cleaned out the heavyweight division against very,very good boxers and punchers.Liston knocked out Wayne Bethea's teeth with a left jab!

Stoppage
07-16-2009, 07:39 PM
This could go either way as they both possessed great knockout power. Overall, I see Frazier winning it.

billionaire
07-16-2009, 07:48 PM
Frazier had excellent head movement.. He's also faced and beaten one of the best jabbers in the businees, who also outjabbed Liston easily.. Liston would miss, tire & lose..

fraziers head movement is overrated, he ate so many clean shots he just had a great chin to keep moving forward.....duran is the example of great head movement he rarely got hit clean.....

princemanspoper
07-16-2009, 08:59 PM
Joe frazier ducked an old washed up sonny liston just like he ducked mac foster,ron lyle,earnie shavers,al lewis and leotis martin

his glass jaw couldn't handle real big punchers and that's why he and his smart managment avoided such fighters throughout his entire career

Frazier would have been a nightmare for Liston..

1. He wouldn't have been intimidated
2. He was too fast for Liston
3. He had more heart than Liston
4. He hit hard as hard as Liston

****i*g idiot,he was certainly intimidated the first time around against george foreman.Too fast was he? you mean like a prime floyd patterson? more heart than liston? why don't you just admit that you know nothing about liston other than his fights with ali? I guess you wouldn't know he had his jaw broken yet he continued on would you?

frazier quit against ali the third time around and convinced eddie futch to come up with a **** and bull story about him wanting to continue? do you no recall frazier running like a coward from foreman's big right hand either?

lmao he hit harder than liston now did he? not only are you a cop out who speads his legs apart to other bully boy posters but you also don't know **** about boxing

Miburo
07-16-2009, 09:02 PM
I'm not sure about this one, Frazier would likely have to take Liston's heart to win. It's not out of the question that if Frazier put on a good enough showing in the early rounds Liston might crumble as he did against Ali. Physically and stylistically Liston should perhaps be favored though.

TheGreatA
07-16-2009, 09:10 PM
fraziers head movement is overrated, he ate so many clean shots he just had a great chin to keep moving forward.....duran is the example of great head movement he rarely got hit clean.....

His head movement post 1971 is overrated... Look at some of his prime fights though, you would really have to set him up to get a clean punch in and he often smothered his opponents' attack before they could get any punches off.

Liston however was great at feinting the jab and landing the uppercut (something he did to Patterson several times). He was also an underrated inside fighter, despite his long arms.

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Sugarj
07-17-2009, 08:44 AM
Frazier's head movement was good which is why I think he would go a few rounds with Liston. The trouble for me is that Frazier's chin was not brilliant at absorbing the really hard punches. He may not have beaten Shavers or Lyle if they had met too.

If Oscar Bonavena can have him down twice in one fight I'd favour Liston to keep him there should he have connected.

mickey malone
07-17-2009, 10:15 AM
Frazier's head movement was good which is why I think he would go a few rounds with Liston. The trouble for me is that Frazier's chin was not brilliant at absorbing the really hard punches. He may not have beaten Shavers or Lyle if they had met too.

If Oscar Bonavena can have him down twice in one fight I'd favour Liston to keep him there should he have connected.
Very true, but what were Listons defensive skills, if a big hooker like Frazier suddenly let his hands go? I don't think Sonny knew too much about defense.. Rarely took a step backwards, had zero head movement & tended to rely on his extended reach/powerful jab too much.. I'm of the opinion that he fought too many guys who allowed him to do this.. I believe Frazier would get inside & break him down...

TheGreatA
07-17-2009, 10:25 AM
Very true, but what were Listons defensive skills, if a big hooker like Frazier suddenly let his hands go? I don't think Sonny knew too much about defense.. Rarely took a step backwards, had zero head movement & tended to rely on his extended reach/powerful jab too much.. I'm of the opinion that he fought too many guys who allowed him to do this.. I believe Frazier would get inside & break him down...

I think his defensive skills were very solid. He had good head movement, blocked well, used the shoulders to deflect punches, stepped out of range, etc.

Nothing flashy but he was rarely hit flush.

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6:30

Gettin Jiggy
07-17-2009, 10:32 AM
I think his defensive skills were very solid. He had good head movement, blocked well, used the shoulders to deflect punches, stepped out of range, etc.

Nothing flashy but he was rarely hit flush.

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6:30

Was Frazier blind in one eye and how long was it for? was it from his amature days or just late on in his career? and how was he passing eye test medicals?

Kid McCoy
07-17-2009, 10:46 AM
Was Frazier blind in one eye and how long was it for? was it from his amature days or just late on in his career? and how was he passing eye test medicals?

Frazier damaged his eye in a training accident in the mid-60s, after which he only had limited vision in it. When Ali closed the other eye in Manila he was effectively blind in the ring.

Reasoning it was better to be blind and rich than blind and broke, he kept the condition secret. He passed his medicals with the simple expedient of switching his hands as took his eye test, but both times covering the same eye.

Gettin Jiggy
07-17-2009, 10:47 AM
Frazier damaged his eye in a training accident in the mid-60s, after which he only had limited vision in it. When Ali closed the other eye in Manila he was effectively blind in the ring.

Reasoning it was better to be blind and rich than blind and broke, he kept the condition secret. He passed his medicals with the simple expedient of switching his hands as took his eye test, but both times covering the same eye.

Thanks Man for the information. wow frazier has got balls getting in there with one eye. so he was virtually blind in one eye when he won the heavyweight title?

Sugarj
07-17-2009, 10:52 AM
To be honest I was fairly impressed by Sonny Liston's defense in the mid to late 50s and early 60s when many thought he was the best heavyweight in the world, even though Floyd Patterson, or at least Cus D'Amato would not give him a title shot until the early 60s. He had a good workrate and could do the full fifteen rounds without trouble (I think he went this distance with Eddie Machen).

His chin was remarkable even when he was hit, Cleveland Williams at his peak was a heavy hitting monster too but Liston just shrugged his shots off. Even George Foreman, who sparred Liston said that he was suprised that even when hitting him with his heaviest shots, Liston barely blinked. I dont think Frazier, who was shorter, lighter and shorter reached would dent Liston.

Did Frazier ever beat a really hard puncher, I wouldn't say that Quarry or Ellis were really devestating punchers? Bonavena was handy but no Foreman or Liston. He didn't face Lyle, Shavers or Norton...........he may well have beaten them but they all punched very hard so who knows?

As for Liston having no heart, there was something clearly wrong in the Ali rematch. We'll never know the true story here, but he did show plenty before 1965.

TheGreatA
07-17-2009, 11:27 AM
To be honest I was fairly impressed by Sonny Liston's defense in the mid to late 50s and early 60s when many thought he was the best heavyweight in the world, even though Floyd Patterson, or at least Cus D'Amato would not give him a title shot until the early 60s. He had a good workrate and could do the full fifteen rounds without trouble (I think he went this distance with Eddie Machen).

His chin was remarkable even when he was hit, Cleveland Williams at his peak was a heavy hitting monster too but Liston just shrugged his shots off. Even George Foreman, who sparred Liston said that he was suprised that even when hitting him with his heaviest shots, Liston barely blinked. I dont think Frazier, who was shorter, lighter and shorter reached would dent Liston.

Did Frazier ever beat a really hard puncher, I wouldn't say that Quarry or Ellis were really devestating punchers? Bonavena was handy but no Foreman or Liston. He didn't face Lyle, Shavers or Norton...........he may well have beaten them but they all punched very hard so who knows?

As for Liston having no heart, there was something clearly wrong in the Ali rematch. We'll never know the true story here, but he did show plenty before 1965.

Frazier supposedly got the better of Norton in sparring most of the time and there is a rumour that he even knocked Norton out once. Both were friends and trained by Futch so I doubt a fight between the two could have ever happened.

Shavers had a big punch but I don't think he could have beaten Frazier. Far too limited and lacking the conditioning that Frazier had.

Lyle could punch, surely, but I feel he might be a little overrated as a puncher due to the brawl with Foreman.

The loss to Foreman in my opinion had a lot more to do with Frazier's style than his chin. Anyone would have gone down had they leaned into Foreman's uppercuts the way Frazier did.

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2:30

Frazier was inexperienced against Bonavena and went down twice but aside from that he seemed to take Bonavena's punches very well. Charlie Goldman, Bonavena's trainer, said that his punch was equal or harder than Rocky Marciano's whom he had also trained. He was simply too crude to land consistently on most of his opponents but he did land a lot of leather on Frazier in their two fights.

Sugarj
07-17-2009, 11:45 AM
I'd probably shade Frazier over Norton too.

As for Shavers, there was nothing wrong with his conditioning against Ali.......full fifteen rounds, fairly close decision. He may have only needed to detonate once or twice to beat Frazier. Lets face it he DID knock Norton out in one and Norton had only just lost the closest fight to Holmes and was far from shot going into that fight, Ernie wiped him out! That said Ernie's chin wasn't amazing so Frazier too would have a good chance to do the same to him.

Lyle was a good fighter, clearly heavy handed and ahead on points before Ali stopped him late, he'd have a fair chance against Frazier.

So I ask again did Frazier ever beat a really hard puncher?

mickey malone
07-17-2009, 01:53 PM
Joe frazier ducked an old washed up sonny liston just like he ducked mac foster,ron lyle,earnie shavers,al lewis and leotis martin

his glass jaw couldn't handle real big punchers and that's why he and his smart managment avoided such fighters throughout his entire career



****i*g idiot,he was certainly intimidated the first time around against george foreman.Too fast was he? you mean like a prime floyd patterson? more heart than liston? why don't you just admit that you know nothing about liston other than his fights with ali? I guess you wouldn't know he had his jaw broken yet he continued on would you?

frazier quit against ali the third time around and convinced eddie futch to come up with a **** and bull story about him wanting to continue? do you no recall frazier running like a coward from foreman's big right hand either?

lmao he hit harder than liston now did he? not only are you a cop out who speads his legs apart to other bully boy posters but you also don't know **** about boxing
Fights b4 Ali... All wins

Zora Folley
Eddie Macken
Cleveland Williams
Roy Harris
Nino Valdez

Think it's fair to say, Frazier would'a beaten all of these (Can't remember but I think he did 1or2 of em)

Fights between losing to Ali & losing to Martin (who Frazier would of also beaten)

Dave Bailey 15-16-2
Bill McMurray 23-18-2
Willis Earls 4-7-1
Roger Rischer 29-11-2
Amos Lincoln 40-10-2
Billy Joiner 9-4-3
George Johnson 16-17-4
Sonny Moore 20-30-2

And they're impressive credentials are they..?... It appears the 'phantom' punch from Ali took away his lifes blood.. Frazier never let that happen to him, did he?
Further more, I don't recall Frazier taking on a diet of journeymen...
Now... Mr Know fvck all.. Go cry to ye mumma...

YOU are the bully boy poster, & I've fvcked bullies more times than you've hung outside public toilets...

TheGreatA
07-17-2009, 02:10 PM
I'd probably shade Frazier over Norton too.

As for Shavers, there was nothing wrong with his conditioning against Ali.......full fifteen rounds, fairly close decision. He may have only needed to detonate once or twice to beat Frazier. Lets face it he DID knock Norton out in one and Norton had only just lost the closest fight to Holmes and was far from shot going into that fight, Ernie wiped him out! That said Ernie's chin wasn't amazing so Frazier too would have a good chance to do the same to him.

Lyle was a good fighter, clearly heavy handed and ahead on points before Ali stopped him late, he'd have a fair chance against Frazier.

So I ask again did Frazier ever beat a really hard puncher?

It depends on what you view as a really hard puncher. I don't think Lyle or Norton punched any harder than Oscar Bonavena did, in fact I don't think of Norton as much of a puncher at all despite his one round KO win over Bobick. Lyle was obviously heavy-handed but he didn't really have any career-defining KO's.

Shavers ran out of stamina against Lyle but he was as well-conditioned as ever against Ali (and he also paced himself), that fight however was in 1977 when Frazier had already retired. I can't see the 1973-1975 Shavers beating Frazier at the time.

Chuvalo had 64 KO's out of 73 wins, Frazier beat him down in 4 rounds. Manuel Ramos was known for a terrific right uppercut and Frazier absorbed it in the very first round. Ellis had a sharp right but it did no damage on Frazier. Quarry had a powerful counter left hook but Frazier walked right through it.

fight_professor
07-17-2009, 02:16 PM
Just to interject here re: phantom punch. It was a hell of a right hand that landed flush. Was nothing iffy that night!

Sugarj
07-17-2009, 03:00 PM
To be honest Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena or Ramos didn't punch nearly as hard as Sonny Liston though, I think we'd see a KO in Liston's favour at some point. He arguably hit as hard as Foreman and Foreman knocked Frazier down what eight times in two fights. Past prime or not Frazier would be in doggy doo against Liston.

TheGreatA
07-17-2009, 03:11 PM
To be honest Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena or Ramos didn't punch nearly as hard as Sonny Liston though, I think we'd see a KO in Liston's favour at some point. He arguably hit as hard as Foreman and Foreman knocked Frazier down what eight times in two fights. Past prime or not Frazier would be in doggy doo against Liston.

Agreed but I don't buy the argument that Frazier ducked punchers. He fought all the contenders that he was supposed to.

Lyle, Foster and Shavers had their chance to become Frazier's top contender when they fought Quarry and were all beaten decisively by him.

I don't think Liston has quite the raw power of Foreman. I also don't think that Frazier was at his very best against Foreman. He seemed to have abandoned the things that made him great in his fights against rather low level opposition Ron Stander and Terry Daniels, walking in straight forward with less bobbing & weaving, and looking for the one punch.

Even a shot, overweight Frazier went 3 more rounds with Foreman in 1976.

http://pro.corbis.com/images/U1585179.jpg?size=67&uid=c1b50779-e2a0-4162-8bff-6b14f2906593&uniqID=d501845f-0bf2-467d-9f46-381d3a43e841

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/0901/history.january22/images/frazier-foreman.jpg

mickey malone
07-17-2009, 03:40 PM
Just to interject here re: phantom punch. It was a hell of a right hand that landed flush. Was nothing iffy that night!
As I wrote... "Took away his lifes blood"

Apologize for letting my sarcasm creep into it...

princemanspoper
07-17-2009, 06:39 PM
Fights b4 Ali... All wins

Zora Folley
Eddie Macken
Cleveland Williams
Roy Harris
Nino Valdez

Think it's fair to say, Frazier would'a beaten all of these (Can't remember but I think he did 1or2 of em)

Fights between losing to Ali & losing to Martin (who Frazier would of also beaten)

Dave Bailey 15-16-2
Bill McMurray 23-18-2
Willis Earls 4-7-1
Roger Rischer 29-11-2
Amos Lincoln 40-10-2
Billy Joiner 9-4-3
George Johnson 16-17-4
Sonny Moore 20-30-2

And they're impressive credentials are they..?... It appears the 'phantom' punch from Ali took away his lifes blood.. Frazier never let that happen to him, did he?
Further more, I don't recall Frazier taking on a diet of journeymen...
Now... Mr Know fvck all.. Go cry to ye mumma...

YOU are the bully boy poster, & I've fvcked bullies more times than you've hung outside public toilets...


Ah the old "He woulda beaten them anyway" passing of a supposed fact without any actual facts at all.Who's to say how joe frazier would have done against the likes of cleveland williams because he never would have had the balls to have fought williams in the first place

williams was a big strong puncher and frazier ducked them like you duck cold hard facts

street bully
07-17-2009, 06:47 PM
Liston by mid round KO.

boxingbuff
07-17-2009, 06:58 PM
Frazier damaged his eye in a training accident in the mid-60s, after which he only had limited vision in it. When Ali closed the other eye in Manila he was effectively blind in the ring.

Reasoning it was better to be blind and rich than blind and broke, he kept the condition secret. He passed his medicals with the simple expedient of switching his hands as took his eye test, but both times covering the same eye.

Frazier had a catarac in one eye.

My source:Joe Frazier's book

princemanspoper
07-17-2009, 07:04 PM
as for norton vs frazier and them not fighting because eddie futch trained them both and they sparred that's bull****

eddie futch left norton after his second fight with ali in 73.And frazier and norton hadn't sparred in ages,and they didn't actually spar all that often,norton trained and was based on the west coast,frazier trained and was based on the east coast


and comparing bonavena,chuvalo and ellis's punching power to lyle's,shavers or even a mac fosters is ****ing retarded they were natural punchers with devestating power

fraziers lack of real punchers on his record is no coincidence,His trainers were not fools and recognized his lack of chin

like I said before fraziers whole legacy is ased off of ali,so most think that ecause ali couldn't knock him out despite landing at will that frazier somehow had a good chin WRONG

ali's power does not equal to many of those who fought in that era,he had the occasional hard right hand but that was as I said it was Occasional


bonavena wasn't a rugged powerhouse but he wasn't a big puncher,he had power but he was never a puncher and chuvalo was dangerous enough especially in close quarters but he didn't have it either norton was the superior puncher to both

Sugarj
07-17-2009, 07:20 PM
I do agree alot with what you've said there Prince. In the second round of Ali frazier 2, Ali seemed to noticeably stagger Frazier with a one-two and a phantom incorrect round end call from the ref Tony Perez stopped Ali's assault, even Ali's fairly light punches compared to Liston troubled him.

Frazier had bags of heart and an ability to absorb lighter punches all night. He did of course manage to drag himself off the canvas several times against Foreman, but I fear that were he to face the hardest punchers in history he'd possibly suffer KO/TKO defeats.

I wouldn't be betting on Frazier in matches with Liston, Shavers, Lyle, Tyson, Bowe or Vitali. He may well beat several of them but I wouldn't be confident of him winning.

mickey malone
07-17-2009, 07:35 PM
Ah the old "He woulda beaten them anyway" passing of a supposed fact without any actual facts at all.Who's to say how joe frazier would have done against the likes of cleveland williams because he never would have had the balls to have fought williams in the first place

williams was a big strong puncher and frazier ducked them like you duck cold hard facts
Well exactly.... WHO....??? .... Me, you & a few others.... So go get pissed up again & tell the tossers down the pub all about it, cos you got no facts.. Just cold hard bollocks & an intense hatred for anything that don't quite rub your meat.. You're old news already son, & and you've only just been accepted as a boy scout.. How fvcking sad is that you rude cunt....

TheGreatA
07-17-2009, 07:57 PM
as for norton vs frazier and them not fighting because eddie futch trained them both and they sparred that's bull****

eddie futch left norton after his second fight with ali in 73.And frazier and norton hadn't sparred in ages,and they didn't actually spar all that often,norton trained and was based on the west coast,frazier trained and was based on the east coast

From the book "Going the distance" by Ken Norton:

"Good sparring partners are heavily in demand in boxing, and Eddie convinced Yank to give me a chance to be a sparring partner for Frazier, who was then undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. Frazier would get a good sparring partner for his up and coming fight with Jimmy Ellis, and I would be able to learn and improve on my technique by one of the hardest hitters of all time, "Smokin" Joe Frazier. It was a win-win situation and the money wasn't bad, either. Frazier paid me a handsome 500$ a week to spar with him, but let me tell you, I earned every cent for some of the shots I took.

Going to Frazier's camp was my introduction to the big time. Joe was then, as he is now, a very fun-loving guy, but he trained in the gym very hard. Once the gloves were on, he didn't mess around. You made no mistakes with Joe or you lost your head. At the very least, he could break your ribs.

Frazier beat me the first time I climbed into the ring with him. I made the unfortunate mistake of going out drinking the night before, and I almost got killed. He caught me with that lethal left hook and I just went numb. The second time we sparred, there was a crowd on hand, and we didn't hold anything back. After three rounds with Frazier, boxing Godzilla for 10 rounds was nothing!

It was rumoured that I and Frazier made a pact never to fight each other because we were such good friends. That was simply not true. The reality was that if we had been offered the right amount of money, we would have fought each other. However, after two years of sparring with each other, we knew each other's style so well and had formed a mutual respect for each other's abilities."

and comparing bonavena,chuvalo and ellis's punching power to lyle's,shavers or even a mac fosters is ****ing retarded they were natural punchers with devestating power

Where's the proof that Mac Foster and Ron Lyle punched any harder than Oscar Bonavena?

None of the three knocked down Quarry but Chuvalo did.

I didn't say that any of them punched as hard as Shavers but Shavers was never in position to fight Frazier when Frazier was still around. He was beaten down by Quarry in one round.

fraziers lack of real punchers on his record is no coincidence,His trainers were not fools and recognized his lack of chin

Which punchers should he have fought then? I already proved that Shavers and Lyle were never in the position to fight Frazier.

like I said before fraziers whole legacy is ased off of ali,so most think that ecause ali couldn't knock him out despite landing at will that frazier somehow had a good chin WRONG

Frazier based his legacy on winning the Olympic gold medal, beating all the top contenders of the late 1960's (look at the Ring rankings my friend), unifying the WBA, WBC & NYSAC titles and capturing the linear title against an unbeaten Muhammad Ali in perhaps the biggest fight of all time.

ali's power does not equal to many of those who fought in that era,he had the occasional hard right hand but that was as I said it was Occasional

He landed that "occasional" right hand on Frazier a ton in their three fights and it didn't do the damage on him that it did to Foreman, Liston, Lyle...

bonavena wasn't a rugged powerhouse but he wasn't a big puncher,he had power but he was never a puncher and chuvalo was dangerous enough especially in close quarters but he didn't have it either norton was the superior puncher to both

Norton was hardly a puncher. He wore down opposition with pressure but never showed a devastating KO punch except against the heavily over-hyped Duane Bobick whose chin was found out.

princemanspoper
07-17-2009, 09:54 PM
From the book "Going the distance" by Ken Norton:

"Good sparring partners are heavily in demand in boxing, and Eddie convinced Yank to give me a chance to be a sparring partner for Frazier, who was then undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. Frazier would get a good sparring partner for his up and coming fight with Jimmy Ellis, and I would be able to learn and improve on my technique by one of the hardest hitters of all time, "Smokin" Joe Frazier. It was a win-win situation and the money wasn't bad, either. Frazier paid me a handsome 500$ a week to spar with him, but let me tell you, I earned every cent for some of the shots I took.

Going to Frazier's camp was my introduction to the big time. Joe was then, as he is now, a very fun-loving guy, but he trained in the gym very hard. Once the gloves were on, he didn't mess around. You made no mistakes with Joe or you lost your head. At the very least, he could break your ribs.

Frazier beat me the first time I climbed into the ring with him. I made the unfortunate mistake of going out drinking the night before, and I almost got killed. He caught me with that lethal left hook and I just went numb. The second time we sparred, there was a crowd on hand, and we didn't hold anything back. After three rounds with Frazier, boxing Godzilla for 10 rounds was nothing!

It was rumoured that I and Frazier made a pact never to fight each other because we were such good friends. That was simply not true. The reality was that if we had been offered the right amount of money, we would have fought each other. However, after two years of sparring with each other, we knew each other's style so well and had formed a mutual respect for each other's abilities.".

And your point is? by the time ken norton had established himself as a top heavweight,he and frazier sparred no more,futch let him to go with frazier.Many boxers end up fighting their past regular sparring partners.

Where's the proof that Mac Foster and Ron Lyle punched any harder than Oscar Bonavena?

None of the three knocked down Quarry but Chuvalo did.

stupid argument,ali knocked down and remained the only man to have ever stopped foreman as did jimmy young knock down foreman,would you try to argue that young and ali hit harder than lyle?


I didn't say that any of them punched as hard as Shavers but Shavers was never in position to fight Frazier when Frazier was still around. He was beaten down by Quarry in one round.

I never said shavers was in a position for a title shot,that doesn't mean frazier didn't avoid a fight with the man,Jimmy ellis was no longer relevant at HW,he was a ghost of his former glories yet frazier still found the time to fight him in a useless fight


Which punchers should he have fought then? I already proved that Shavers and Lyle were never in the position to fight Frazier.


lyle and foster should have gotten their shots,there's no if's or buts about it,losing to quarry is irrelevant because those title shots should have already have taken place

Frazier based his legacy on winning the Olympic gold medal, beating all the top contenders of the late 1960's (look at the Ring rankings my friend), unifying the WBA, WBC & NYSAC titles and capturing the linear title against an unbeaten Muhammad Ali in perhaps the biggest fight of all time.

Didn't fight liston,lewis and martin tho did he? I give norton more credit for beating ali,when norton fought ali,ali had ripped through the rankings and pushed him way to the front of the cue for a title shot but frazier wouldn't give him one as a rematch would have presented itself with a much freasher ali who he feared would have beaten him seeing how much he had struggled with a rusty ali



Norton was hardly a puncher. He wore down opposition with pressure but never showed a devastating KO punch except against the heavily over-hyped Duane Bobick whose chin was found out.

norton was a greater puncher than frazier ever was,he had a huge over hand right and arguably a superior left hook than frazier ever had

TheGreatA
07-17-2009, 10:51 PM
And your point is? by the time ken norton had established himself as a top heavweight,he and frazier sparred no more,futch let him to go with frazier.Many boxers end up fighting their past regular sparring partners.

You said that they rarely sparred with each other. They did spar a lot and even Norton admits that he was once knocked out in sparring by Frazier.



stupid argument,ali knocked down and remained the only man to have ever stopped foreman as did jimmy young knock down foreman,would you try to argue that young and ali hit harder than lyle?


Lyle too nearly knocked out Foreman. Foreman had also clearly ran out of stamina when Young and Ali knocked him down.

Quarry was caught with one big punch by Chuvalo which sent him down heavily. Frazier beat him down brutally and knocked him down.

He walked through Lyle's, Shavers' and Foster's best punches.

I never said shavers was in a position for a title shot,that doesn't mean frazier didn't avoid a fight with the man,Jimmy ellis was no longer relevant at HW,he was a ghost of his former glories yet frazier still found the time to fight him in a useless fight

It was nothing but preparation for the Thrilla in Manila. It's not like Ali didn't fight his share of "tune-ups", so did just about every fighter in history.

The bottom line is that Frazier could've never avoided Shavers because Shavers was never top contender when Frazier was around. Fighting Shavers in 1972 would've been no different from fighting Ron Stander, who had actually beaten him. Shavers scored a big upset over Jimmy Ellis in 1973 but was knocked out and off the rankings by Quarry soon after.

lyle and foster should have gotten their shots,there's no if's or buts about it,losing to quarry is irrelevant because those title shots should have already have taken place

Who had Foster beaten to get a shot at Frazier? The ancient Cleveland Williams?

Frazier was too busy unifying the world titles against Ellis to fight an unproven prospect in Mac Foster who was exposed by Quarry, the first top 10 ranked contender he ever fought.

Lyle had beaten former Frazier victims Manuel Ramos and Buster Mathis and in 1973 became a ranked fighter. He took on Quarry while Frazier took on Foreman. Both lost.

Didn't fight liston,lewis and martin tho did he?

Liston was a high risk/low reward opponent until 1968 when he got back in the rankings by beating Henry Clark. The majority thought he had thrown the Ali fight and his image was tainted. There was no gain in fighting him because he wasn't even ranked at the time.

When he did beat Clark and got back in the rankings, he was quickly knocked off by Leotis Martin, who himself had to retire due to a detached retina. Martin had recent losses to Ellis and Bonavena and the win over Liston was by far the biggest in his whole career. Unfortunately his career had to end right after the fight.

Blue Lewis was a nobody who never won a big fight in his life. He was a fringe contender ranked below Manuel Ramos.

I give norton more credit for beating ali,when norton fought ali,ali had ripped through the rankings and pushed him way to the front of the cue for a title shot but frazier wouldn't give him one as a rematch would have presented itself with a much freasher ali who he feared would have beaten him seeing how much he had struggled with a rusty ali[

Of course beating a 2 years older and 6 lb heavier Ali who hadn't exactly looked amazing in his past couple of fights must have been way better than Frazier's win.

norton was a greater puncher than frazier ever was,he had a huge over hand right and arguably a superior left hook than frazier ever had

And in which of his fights does he demonstrate this punching power that you're talking about? Even Norton's own trainers admitted that he was not a huge puncher while Norton himself described Frazier as one of the biggest punchers of all time.

GJC
07-17-2009, 10:54 PM
frazier quit against ali the third time around and convinced eddie futch to come up with a **** and bull story about him wanting to continue?
Frazier never forgave Futch for pulling him out in Manilla and is still bitter about it.
As for Frazier running from Foreman he kept coming forward actually, not bright but not cowardly either.

JAB5239
07-18-2009, 07:31 AM
From the book "Going the distance" by Ken Norton:

"Good sparring partners are heavily in demand in boxing, and Eddie convinced Yank to give me a chance to be a sparring partner for Frazier, who was then undisputed heavyweight champion of the world. Frazier would get a good sparring partner for his up and coming fight with Jimmy Ellis, and I would be able to learn and improve on my technique by one of the hardest hitters of all time, "Smokin" Joe Frazier. It was a win-win situation and the money wasn't bad, either. Frazier paid me a handsome 500$ a week to spar with him, but let me tell you, I earned every cent for some of the shots I took.

Going to Frazier's camp was my introduction to the big time. Joe was then, as he is now, a very fun-loving guy, but he trained in the gym very hard. Once the gloves were on, he didn't mess around. You made no mistakes with Joe or you lost your head. At the very least, he could break your ribs.

Frazier beat me the first time I climbed into the ring with him. I made the unfortunate mistake of going out drinking the night before, and I almost got killed. He caught me with that lethal left hook and I just went numb. The second time we sparred, there was a crowd on hand, and we didn't hold anything back. After three rounds with Frazier, boxing Godzilla for 10 rounds was nothing!

It was rumoured that I and Frazier made a pact never to fight each other because we were such good friends. That was simply not true. The reality was that if we had been offered the right amount of money, we would have fought each other. However, after two years of sparring with each other, we knew each other's style so well and had formed a mutual respect for each other's abilities."



Where's the proof that Mac Foster and Ron Lyle punched any harder than Oscar Bonavena?

None of the three knocked down Quarry but Chuvalo did.

I didn't say that any of them punched as hard as Shavers but Shavers was never in position to fight Frazier when Frazier was still around. He was beaten down by Quarry in one round.



Which punchers should he have fought then? I already proved that Shavers and Lyle were never in the position to fight Frazier.



Frazier based his legacy on winning the Olympic gold medal, beating all the top contenders of the late 1960's (look at the Ring rankings my friend), unifying the WBA, WBC & NYSAC titles and capturing the linear title against an unbeaten Muhammad Ali in perhaps the biggest fight of all time.



He landed that "occasional" right hand on Frazier a ton in their three fights and it didn't do the damage on him that it did to Foreman, Liston, Lyle...



Norton was hardly a puncher. He wore down opposition with pressure but never showed a devastating KO punch except against the heavily over-hyped Duane Bobick whose chin was found out.

There are guys with facts, and there are guys who just don't have a clue. Its obvious who has their **** together and who doesn't. Nice post A.

princemanspoper
07-18-2009, 07:36 AM
not really,he blatantly ignores fraziers title defenses against unranked heavyweights while dismissing top ten heavyweights who despite what he claims were in line for a title shot,there's only so much you can argue with someone who is clear denial

TheGreatA
07-18-2009, 08:51 AM
not really,he blatantly ignores fraziers title defenses against unranked heavyweights while dismissing top ten heavyweights who despite what he claims were in line for a title shot,there's only so much you can argue with someone who is clear denial

Who didn't have title defenses against unranked heavyweights? Look at some of the men Ali defended his title against, Brian London, Chuck Wepner, Jean Pierre Coopman, Richard Dunn, hardly the murderer's row.

Frazier took off year 1972 after a very hard fight against Muhammad Ali and then took on his number 1 contender George Foreman in 1973. There were no other lucrative fights for him at the time, aside from Ali and Foreman. Former KO victim Ellis was rated number 3, ancient Floyd Patterson was rated number 5, washed up Ernie Terrell was number 6.

Shavers, Lyle and Foster would've been in line for a title shot had they beaten the only top 10 ranked contender they ever faced at that point in their careers (Jerry Quarry). Unfortunately they didn't.

You can only accuse a champion of not facing his top ranked contender. Frazier always did during his title reign.

mickey malone
07-18-2009, 03:33 PM
There are guys with facts, and there are guys who just don't have a clue. Its obvious who has their **** together and who doesn't. Nice post A.
I'll second that...

Sugarj
07-18-2009, 09:02 PM
Yea theres some good knowledge on this thread folks.

Coming back to Frazier though, after the first Ali fight he was due a good rest but to be honest in 72 there were better challengers for his crown than Ron Stander and Terry Daniels! Full credit to him for agreeing to face Foreman though.

And full marks for getting in with Foreman again in 1976, Frazier had heart!!

Caesar
08-02-2009, 11:35 AM
i think it would be duplicate fight, because sonny is very similar to foreman, i dont like to compare so perfect boxers, but thats propably the true

jack p
07-20-2014, 06:58 AM
i think it would be duplicate fight, because sonny is very similar to foreman, i dont like to compare so perfect boxers, but thats propably the true

Well for one styles make fights..We have two styles here..Frazier a great swarmer
A fighter that no matter how many times he gets knocked down he will always get up
But one weakness of Fraziers style was his inability to back up.. Especially when facing a puncher..
Swarmers are always at a disadvantage when facing a puncher
With Liston we don't have any puncher..We have a puncher with an extraordinarily long reach...And Listons fists i believe circumference-wise were the largest of any heavyweight
As much as i like Frazier,,,.more honororable . bettere role model..I got to go with the puncher on this one..Frazier unable to avoid Listons heavy punches..Takes to many punches forcing a 5th round stoppage

$BloodyNate$
07-20-2014, 08:11 AM
The thing is Joe took you into deep waters and drowned you with great head movement, a vicious left hook and great cardio. Foreman has an ATG chin and vicious power. The problem was Frazier just couldn't hurt Foreman and left himself vulnerable to Foreman as he stayed in front of him.

I think Liston would knock him down but I'm not sure Liston was a immovable as Foreman and could just stand there and take Frazier's best. I think Liston scores 2 or 3 knockdowns in the first 5 rounds but Frazier ALWAYS gets up and will battle back to win a decision or late stoppage. I don't think Sonny would be able to keep up with the nonstop pressure.