View Full Version : Did Ray Leonard Get Fighters At The Right Time?


Gettin Jiggy
07-15-2009, 12:45 PM
Just been thinking. Did ray get 2 of his biggest wins due to picking the right moment to fight them?

Hagler was in decline and was 33 years of age. and Ray had invited him to a meal, and noticed hagler was realy enjoying his drink and knew it was the right time. Hagler also was belived to be having drug problems.

The second time he fought duran, he wanted the fight 5 months after the first. because he knew duran really gained weight, and when bob arum when to see duran in traing for the fight, arum said he would be lucky to make LHW. why didnt he just wait a few more months to fight the best duran, and in the 3rd duran was past his best.

Thoughts?

bojangles1987
07-15-2009, 01:42 PM
Ray wasn't exactly at his best when he fought Hagler and while I thought he lost, he deserves credit for being as slick as he was. The difference against Duran the second time was mostly Leonard himself, as he played stay away which frustrated Duran.

I'm far from a Sugar Ray Leonard fan but the guy deserves more credit than you are giving him.

JAB5239
07-15-2009, 01:45 PM
Just been thinking. Did ray get 2 of his biggest wins due to picking the right moment to fight them?

Hagler was in decline and was 33 years of age. and Ray had invited him to a meal, and noticed hagler was realy enjoying his drink and knew it was the right time. Hagler also was belived to be having drug problems.

what people conveniantly forget is that Ray was retired for 3 years before coming back to fight Hagler. No tune ups, no nothing. Just the best middleweight in the world. Ray vwas the better man thart night because he was the BETTER man. Its hard to pick the "right moment" when you don't know how your body is going to react to 3 years of inactivity.

The second time he fought duran, he wanted the fight 5 months after the first. because he knew duran really gained weight, and when bob arum when to see duran in traing for the fight, arum said he would be lucky to make LHW. why didnt he just wait a few more months to fight the best duran, and in the 3rd duran was past his best.

First, who's fault is it Duran blew up between fights? Second, nobody forced Duran to sign the contract. He was the champion, therefore in the drivers seat.

Thoughts?

Im a bigger fan of both Hagler and Duran. But on those particular nights Ray Leonard was the better fighter.

Dynamite Kid
07-15-2009, 03:29 PM
Im a bigger fan of both Hagler and Duran. But on those particular nights Ray Leonard was the better fighter.

Great!! post

People are constantly trying to take away from Leonard's victories.

Its like saying yeah but Jones beat a weight drained Toney, so what!! its Toney's priority to make sure he is the best shape possible and Roy's job to prepare for the best James Toney and beat him.

Then they hit you with BS about rematches. No fighter is obliged to give you a rematch unless it written into the contract.

MANGLER
07-15-2009, 03:35 PM
SRL beat those guys fair n square, tho I thought the Hagler fight was draw and coulda gone either way really. Mugabi may have taken a lil sumthin outta Marvin but SRL had the balls to move str8 up to him after 3 yrs away. And nothin goin on in Duran's camp could be his fault. He came back and beat the guy who had beaten him. Give em his props.

billionaire
07-15-2009, 05:48 PM
hagler showed slippage in his previous fight vs mugabi, regardless no one in their right mind would bet on a welterweight out for 5 years to win the middleweight title....

ray showed improvement in the 2nd fight vs duran, personally no one knows who would win if the 1st duran showed up that night....

i consider rays best win tommy hearns, who couldve been the best 147 ever if not for ray....

American_Ninja
07-15-2009, 05:58 PM
For Hagler, Ray trained for almost 1 year. Yes he knew Hagler was on the down slide.

The Duran rematch, Ray played it smart, he knew Duran would be hard pressed to gain the same intensity he had.

Hagler and M. Spinks
Both retired and never fought again, after a loss.

Rockin'
07-15-2009, 06:06 PM
when its all said and done boxing is a business. Ray was smart, really smart to call on Hagler when he did. Came back and took lalondes title, smart. came back and took haglers title, brilliant.

other than hagler I would say ray fought most of those other guys during their prime. Ray was good.............Rockin':boxing:

Dynamite Glove
07-15-2009, 06:07 PM
I think he ducked pryor...

I really don't blame him either. Arguello truly had an iron set of balls fighting that guy again.......after the gimme the bottle, no no the one I mix problem....

Pryor was a badass...if there's one man I can think of when I think of 'monstrous stamina' he's the first guy that comes to mind...like the energizer bunny or something...just insane...

▀ringer
07-15-2009, 06:27 PM
Why does everybody always try to piss on Ray's best wins?

Against Hagler he was coming in off of a layoff of what? 2 and a half, or 3 years?

No tune up fight, no easy exhibitions, nothing.

And he outhustled Marvin cleanly, in my eyes.

The Duran rematch? That was Ray's gameplan. He allowed Duran to fight his fight in their first bout and he paid for it. This time out, it would be Duran trying to fight Leonard's fight. He couldn't adjust to it, and Ray won.

And I totally disagree that he "ducked" Pryor.

If anything, he "lowballed" Aaron, and rightfully so ; Aaron wasn't huge draw or a star in any way, shape, or form. He hadn't even fought Arguello yet, and Ray's supposed to give him a crack when he still had Hearns, Hagler, and Duran walking around?

Makes no sense to me.

boxingbuff
07-15-2009, 07:06 PM
SRL himself admits to getting Duran at the right time.

He said he knew Duran blew up after fights,and when he heard Duran was up to 200lbs after the 1st fight he said he tried to get the rematch as soon as possible!

This is not what I am saying....It's right out of the mouth of Sugar Ray himself.

Gettin Jiggy
07-15-2009, 07:09 PM
SRL himself admits to getting Duran at the right time.

He said he knew Duran blew up after fights,and when he heard Duran was up to 200lbs after the 1st fight he said he tried to get the rematch as soon as possible!

This is not what I am saying....It's right out of the mouth of Sugar Ray himself.

thank you!!!!

▀ringer
07-15-2009, 07:11 PM
SRL himself admits to getting Duran at the right time.

He said he knew Duran blew up after fights,and when he heard Duran was up to 200lbs after the 1st fight he said he tried to get the rematch as soon as possible!

This is not what I am saying....It's right out of the mouth of Sugar Ray himself.

Yeah, but who's fault was it that Duran blew up in the first place?

Duran's, for not taking care of his body and keeping himself in fighting condition like a professional.

He dropped the ball, and Ray capitalized.

I don't see how that makes Ray the bad guy.

Aside from that, the rematch was bound to happen anyway. There's no way Leonard would've gotten away with not trying to avenge that loss.

Duran should've expected that and kept himself in tip top shape.

Thread Stealer
07-15-2009, 07:39 PM
I think he ducked pryor...

I really don't blame him either. Arguello truly had an iron set of balls fighting that guy again.......after the gimme the bottle, no no the one I mix problem....

Pryor was a badass...if there's one man I can think of when I think of 'monstrous stamina' he's the first guy that comes to mind...like the energizer bunny or something...just insane...

Pryor turned down half a million for a Leonard fight.

You can argue that SRL low-balled Pryor, as Pryor ended up making a lot more facing Arguello (a less popular guy than SRL). But then again, half a mil was ten times more than Pryor had made a year earlier for winning the title versus Cervantes.

I don't like Pryor's chances at 147.

I have a tough time picking against him though H2H at 140.

Thread Stealer
07-15-2009, 07:42 PM
Leonard and his team knew Duran would blow up in weight. Then again, it's hard to criticize him for immediately fighting someone who just beat him. Duran wasn't the most disciplined guy, what if he had gotten lazy and lost to someone else first?

Hagler had slipped, he was slower and easier to hit as shown in fights with Roldan and Mugabi. His reflexes and legs were slower. But Leonard wasn't exactly prime either, he hadn't fought in 3 years, just once in 5 years, and was the smaller man.

I still give SRL credit for those fights (I actually had the Hagler fight even).

You can always look for reasons to nitpick and downgrade a fighter's resume.

Gettin Jiggy
07-15-2009, 07:44 PM
Pryor turned down half a million for a Leonard fight.
You can argue that SRL low-balled Pryor, as Pryor ended up making a lot more facing Arguello (a less popular guy than SRL). But then again, half a mil was ten times more than Pryor had made a year earlier for winning the title versus Cervantes.

I don't like Pryor's chances at 147.

I have a tough time picking against him though H2H at 140.

where did you heard this?

Thread Stealer
07-15-2009, 07:47 PM
where did you heard this?

In a Sports Illustrated article entitled "The Champion of Confusion" in 1982.

I tend to believe that more than a short clip of a "call out" on Legendary Nights (as if that proves anything anyway).

Gettin Jiggy
07-15-2009, 07:50 PM
In a Sports Illustrated article entitled "The Champion of Confusion" in 1982.

I tend to believe that more than a short clip of a "call out" on Legendary Nights (as if that proves anything anyway).

nah i have my douts with him turning down leonard. just cause a article says so!

Thread Stealer
07-15-2009, 07:55 PM
nah i have my douts with him turning down leonard. just cause a article says so!

It's much more believable than all the people saying "Leonard ducked Pryor" because of a damn HBO documentary.

Pryor's own personal and legal problems, and not moving up to 147, played a bigger role in him not getting the bigger fights than people's "fear" of him.

Gettin Jiggy
07-15-2009, 07:57 PM
It's much more believable than all the people saying "Leonard ducked Pryor" because of a damn HBO documentary.

Pryor's own personal and legal problems, and not moving up to 147, played a bigger role in him not getting the bigger fights than people's "fear" of him.

why is it much more belivable than a hbo doc with experts talking? deep down i think ray didnt want to know with pryor.

Thread Stealer
07-15-2009, 08:03 PM
why is it much more belivable than a hbo doc with experts talking? deep down i think ray didnt want to know with pryor.

That HBO series has a number of myths for dramatic effect. It's a well-made series, but also causes viewers to say a lot of bull*****.

A "calling out" of someone in the long run means *****. For some reason, boxing fans get their ****s hard because someone "calls out" someone, like a 5th grade lunchroom fight, but the real "calling out" is in negotiations. Pryor never moved to 147 where the big names were residing, turned down a fight with Duran @ 150 due to managerial problems, and wasn't happy with the Leonard offer.

And then there's the fact that it makes no sense for a guy who fought Benitez, Hearns, Duran, and Hagler to fear the jr. welterweight Pryor.

Gettin Jiggy
07-15-2009, 08:07 PM
That HBO series has a number of myths for dramatic effect. It's a well-made series, but also causes viewers to say a lot of bull*****.

A "calling out" of someone in the long run means *****. For some reason, boxing fans get their ****s hard because someone "calls out" someone, like a 5th grade lunchroom fight, but the real "calling out" is in negotiations. Pryor never moved to 147 where the big names were residing, turned down a fight with Duran @ 150 due to managerial problems, and wasn't happy with the Leonard offer.

And then there's the fact that it makes no sense for a guy who fought Benitez, Hearns, Duran, and Hagler to fear the jr. welterweight Pryor.

It's called styles. and that article probaly wanted a dramatic effect so people would read it.

am not saying its fact that leonard avoided him, but i do think there was something there.

Thread Stealer
07-15-2009, 08:12 PM
It's called styles. and that article probaly wanted a dramatic effect so people would read it.

am not saying its fact that leonard avoided him, but i do think there was something there.

Leonard faced all sorts of styles. A welterweight has no obligation to face a junior welterweight champion. If Pryor wanted it so bad, he should've made some noise at 147, or accepted the offer.

The "something" that was there was both guys being greedy and wanting more money.

Gettin Jiggy
07-15-2009, 08:16 PM
Leonard faced all sorts of styles. A welterweight has no obligation to face a junior welterweight champion. If Pryor wanted it so bad, he should've made some noise at 147, or accepted the offer.

The "something" that was there was both guys being greedy and wanting more money.

to be honest i dont really belive this so called offered due to article saying it! like you dont belive hbo LN's.

Thread Stealer
11-07-2009, 08:37 PM
Pryor discusses not being happy with a half-million.

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Obama
11-08-2009, 12:20 AM
The topic at hand is not "who's fault is it that Ray's best wins were against fighters not at their best". The topic is simply whether or not they were at their best. And they clearly weren't. This includes a drained Hearns in the first fight, as Leonard forced him to come in underweight just to get a decent paycheck.

Leonard ducked rematches (after winning) with both Hearns and Duran until he figured they had less in the tank than him. He guessed right on Duran, guessed wrong on Hearns.

Miburo
11-08-2009, 03:48 AM
To a degree - Duran has no one to blame but himself for whatever negative contribution his lack of preparation had on his effectiveness.

Hagler more so, as I think most would agree SRL would have lost conclusively to Hagler even a few years prior, but stylistic differences (as well as Hagler's ill-advised move to fight the first three rounds orthodox) enabled a past-prime Leonard to be competitive with a past-prime Hagler.

sonnyboyx2
11-08-2009, 04:32 AM
Just been thinking. Did ray get 2 of his biggest wins due to picking the right moment to fight them?

Hagler was in decline and was 33 years of age. and Ray had invited him to a meal, and noticed hagler was realy enjoying his drink and knew it was the right time. Hagler also was belived to be having drug problems.

The second time he fought duran, he wanted the fight 5 months after the first. because he knew duran really gained weight, and when bob arum when to see duran in traing for the fight, arum said he would be lucky to make LHW. why didnt he just wait a few more months to fight the best duran, and in the 3rd duran was past his best.

Thoughts?
Rubbish`... Ray Leonard never hand-picked opponents because they was on the slide.. he fought Thomas Hearns when they was both in their ultimate prime, he fought Benitez when he was at his best, he fought Duran in Montreal when both at their best and he fought Hagler when he returned from 3yrs out and Hagler was "fighting-fit"... Leonard was Class!

Stoppage
11-08-2009, 11:20 AM
It's hard to say for Hagler. But he got Hearns, Benitez and Duran at the right time.

Bright-Eyes
11-08-2009, 12:06 PM
I think he ducked pryor...

I really don't blame him either. Arguello truly had an iron set of balls fighting that guy again.......after the gimme the bottle, no no the one I mix problem....

Pryor was a badass...if there's one man I can think of when I think of 'monstrous stamina' he's the first guy that comes to mind...like the energizer bunny or something...just insane...


I'm glad that you brought this up because I recently made a thread concerning Leonard supposedly "ducking" Aaron Pryor.


http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323019

GJC
11-08-2009, 12:23 PM
I think Leonard was a very cagey character but he beat a pretty good version of Benetiz and a good version of Hearns. Personally always seen the Hagler fight as a draw but Hagler fought a stupid fight. Hagler was slipping but I think he had more than enough to beat a guy who had had one fight in 5 years. It was Duran's own fault re the second fight, as a sportsman you should keep yourself in shape the 3rd fight was just a case of who had anything left.

Princemanspopa
11-08-2009, 12:25 PM
why is it much more belivable than a hbo doc with experts talking? deep down i think ray didnt want to know with pryor.


LMAO,what a complete and utter newb.If hbo says it's true then it must be true.Aaron Pryor didn't want anything to do with Ray Leonard and these words came from Aaron Pryor himself.You didn't know anything about Ray Leonard and Aaron Pryor until you watched the legendary night series.Stop watching this sport as it's clear you don't know a damn thing about it.





The topic at hand is not "who's fault is it that Ray's best wins were against fighters not at their best". The topic is simply whether or not they were at their best. And they clearly weren't. This includes a drained Hearns in the first fight, as Leonard forced him to come in underweight just to get a decent paycheck.

Leonard ducked rematches (after winning) with both Hearns and Duran until he figured they had less in the tank than him. He guessed right on Duran, guessed wrong on Hearns.


And here we have the "DUNCE" mouthing off again on a topic that he quite clearly has no clue about.Thomas Hearns wasn't weight drained dunce,it's easy to go look on boxrec and find out that he weighed in two pounds lighters than the limit and come to the conclusion that he was weight drained,or you could simply watch the fight and know the only thing that drained Hearns of energy was determination and constant pressure.

Ray Leonard never forced Hearns to come in underweight in the first fight,you complete and utter moron.Leonard was suprised himself that Hearns came in at that weight.It was the second fight in which they agreed that Hearns would come in at a lower weight.It was wrong to have made it that way but if you are going to bring this up,then atleast get the correct f*cking fight,you idiot.


Nobody expected Leonard to give Hearns an immediate rematch,not the public,not Emanuel Steward and not even Thomas Hearns.You are also forgetting the fact that he retired due to a legitimate injury,moron.


Quite amazing that a Ray Robinson fanboy would have the nerve to try and discredit any other fighter.God knows how many great black fighters that man ducked throughout his career.

Obama
11-08-2009, 01:03 PM
And here we have the "DUNCE" mouthing off again on a topic that he quite clearly has no clue about.Thomas Hearns wasn't weight drained dunce,it's easy to go look on boxrec and find out that he weighed in two pounds lighters than the limit and come to the conclusion that he was weight drained,or you could simply watch the fight and know the only thing that drained Hearns of energy was determination and constant pressure.

Ray Leonard never forced Hearns to come in underweight in the first fight,you complete and utter moron.Leonard was suprised himself that Hearns came in at that weight.It was the second fight in which they agreed that Hearns would come in at a lower weight.It was wrong to have made it that way but if you are going to bring this up,then atleast get the correct f*cking fight,you idiot.


Nobody expected Leonard to give Hearns an immediate rematch,not the public,not Emanuel Steward and not even Thomas Hearns.You are also forgetting the fact that he retired due to a legitimate injury,moron.


Quite amazing that a Ray Robinson fanboy would have the nerve to try and discredit any other fighter.God knows how many great black fighters that man ducked throughout his career.

eRage more please.

Their was a contractual weight stipulation for both fights.

As for the rest of the post, you just make assumptions that aren't true. Didn't forget anything, didn't overlook anything.

Dynamite Kid
11-08-2009, 01:04 PM
Sometimes these things happen because they are meant to happen imo.

Its like a fit in shape Bowe getting his ass whipped just as bad when he did train and focus himself for the 2nd Golota fight.


Or like Douglas, Holyfield exposing Tyson's biggest flaw, whether Cus had lived and Rooney continued to train Tyson he would of still come off the rails eventually because that lack of character is in the human being not just the fighter.


I dont mean to bash Tyson but its just an example that sprung to mind.

Princemanspopa
11-08-2009, 01:27 PM
eRage more please.

Their was a contractual weight stipulation for both fights.

As for the rest of the post, you just make assumptions that aren't true. Didn't forget anything, didn't overlook anything.


No,you made claims that have no substance.I already told you that Ray Leonard was suprised that Hearns weighed in at 145,now why would he be suprised if there was "contractual weight stipulation"?


Stop telling lies to fit your own agenda dunce.You're the troll here and telling such lies proves it.

Obama
11-08-2009, 02:08 PM
No,you made claims that have no substance.I already told you that Ray Leonard was suprised that Hearns weighed in at 145,now why would he be suprised if there was "contractual weight stipulation"?


Stop telling lies to fit your own agenda dunce.You're the troll here and telling such lies proves it.

Because he wasn't surprised.

Learn the definition of troll please. It's what you are, not me.

Princemanspopa
11-08-2009, 02:37 PM
Because he wasn't surprised.

Learn the definition of troll please. It's what you are, not me.

Um,yes he was.And yes you are a troll.Making claims such as this makes you a troll,idiot.

L.Ellerbe
11-08-2009, 05:18 PM
Just been thinking. Did ray get 2 of his biggest wins due to picking the right moment to fight them?

Hagler was in decline and was 33 years of age. and Ray had invited him to a meal, and noticed hagler was realy enjoying his drink and knew it was the right time. Hagler also was belived to be having drug problems.

The second time he fought duran, he wanted the fight 5 months after the first. because he knew duran really gained weight, and when bob arum when to see duran in traing for the fight, arum said he would be lucky to make LHW. why didnt he just wait a few more months to fight the best duran, and in the 3rd duran was past his best.

Thoughts?
the story behind the ''ray invited him to a meal '' is this

him an leonard met at a bar after 1 of haglers defences...leonard asks hagler ''were are you gonna go from here'' and marvin responded ''i dont know ray,i'm struggling to get motivated'' leonard let hagler have a few more glasses of wine planting the seed in hagler for a fight..ray had already been in the gym having unsanctioned 10round fights with no headguards..

ray was smart for doing that to duran...after that first fight duran went back to panama partying every night and weighed close to 200pounds when he started camp...but angelo dundee wouldnt let ray take a warm up which resulted in dave jacobs quitting because he feared for Rays life if he took a rematch

dont forget in these hagler an duran 3 fights ray was inacive/old as well so its a moot point really

L.Ellerbe
11-08-2009, 05:26 PM
The topic at hand is not "who's fault is it that Ray's best wins were against fighters not at their best". The topic is simply whether or not they were at their best. And they clearly weren't. This includes a drained Hearns in the first fight, as Leonard forced him to come in underweight just to get a decent paycheck.

Leonard ducked rematches (after winning) with both Hearns and Duran until he figured they had less in the tank than him. He guessed right on Duran, guessed wrong on Hearns.

your post is full of lies....leonard - hearns was a contractual 147 fight no less...its well known hearns over trained for that fight and a few days before that fight wouldnt allow manny steward to check his weight..
how could they sell a hearns rematch straight away..there wasnt even any talk of a rematch in the immediate aftermath


there was also a rematch put in the clause of the contract of the first fight with leonard having first option on a date with don king even admitting ''they done a better job negotiating than us'' so the fact is leonard didnt deny anyone anything he just called the shots regarding a duran rematch

dadan
11-08-2009, 11:05 PM
ray showed improvement in the 2nd fight vs duran, personally no one knows who would win if the 1st duran showed up that night....

i consider rays best win tommy hearns, who couldve been the best 147 ever if not for ray....

.