View Full Version : I've Lost Some Respect For Ali..


mickey malone
07-10-2009, 04:32 AM
Although I couldn't quite believe it, I've just found out Muhammad Ali was solely to blame for not giving George Foreman a rematch.. Apparently George chased him for nearly 3 years to no avail, because ALI REFUSED TO BUDGE..
I thought Ali gave everyone rematches... Why am I so wrong??

sleazyfellow
07-10-2009, 04:53 AM
George Foreman lost to Jimmy Young, and was a sideshow after ali (fighting 3 men in 1 night).

If Ali did give him a rematch I dont see it going Foremans way again, the ropes will be loosend and it would be as crappy as the first match...maybe even crappier since george wouldnt fall for it.

RightCross94
07-10-2009, 05:30 AM
maybe because foreman lost to young

mickey malone
07-10-2009, 05:48 AM
George Foreman lost to Jimmy Young, and was a sideshow after ali (fighting 3 men in 1 night).

If Ali did give him a rematch I dont see it going Foremans way again, the ropes will be loosend and it would be as crappy as the first match...maybe even crappier since george wouldnt fall for it.
That's bollocks.. Foreman had 5 KO victories before losing to Young, including Lyle & Frazier.. The 'Freak show' was a one off, in order to tempt Ali, and it was 4 bums as opposed to 3.. I still say that Ali avoided him, & Young had nothing to do with it..

0Rooster4Life0
07-10-2009, 07:28 AM
Well if you were Ali would you want to jump in the ring with that beast again? lol

By The way it was 5 men in 1 night, i have it on tape. :boxing: =)

Ali out fought George in Africa, He couldnt pull it off a second time i dont think, but then again George wasnt the same. But i know where your coming from, I have done alot of reading on Ali, and he has disapointed me more then once. But thats my opinion


ROOSTER

Benny Leonard
07-10-2009, 07:35 AM
I never understood why there wasn’t an immediate rematch in the States.

I've always felt that "The Champion" that loses his title should have the option to get an immediate rematch or at least a rematch within 1 full year time.

Foreman fought stupid in that fight and hadn't properly used his jab since Frazier leading up to the Ali fight.

mickey malone
07-10-2009, 08:35 AM
Well if you were Ali would you want to jump in the ring with that beast again? lol

By The way it was 5 men in 1 night, i have it on tape. :boxing: =)

Ali out fought George in Africa, He couldnt pull it off a second time i dont think, but then again George wasnt the same. But i know where your coming from, I have done alot of reading on Ali, and he has disapointed me more then once. But thats my opinion


ROOSTER
3, 4 then 5 lol.. Knew someone had to be wrong! Thanks Rooster, any chance of a quick look at the 5 man tourney.. Might cheer me up a bit lol.. Having a **** day so far.. No worries if you can't though, seen it before, but a long long time ago..

mickey malone
07-10-2009, 08:38 AM
I never understood why there wasn’t an immediate rematch in the States.

I've always felt that "The Champion" that loses his title should have the option to get an immediate rematch or at least a rematch within 1 full year time.

Foreman fought stupid in that fight and hadn't properly used his jab since Frazier leading up to the Ali fight.
My thoughts entirely!

Southpaw Stinger
07-10-2009, 09:34 AM
It's on youtube anyway,

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Southpaw Stinger
07-10-2009, 09:35 AM
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Slimey Limey
07-10-2009, 09:37 AM
Foreman wouldn't have stood a chance in any way. Remember that there were plenty of trades off the ropes and Ali was dominating George with his quick jabs and movements, as well as hurting him with his right hand.
I don't really see what how he 'wouldn't fall for it a second time'. I mean the lad can't push Ali off the ropes, he would still have to play his game. It's only up to Ali if they're gonna fight a diffirent fight. If Foreman couldn't knock a fighter out, he would lose.

Needless to say he was dominated by Young, almost crushed by Lyle and was starting to become a joke after Ali.

mickey malone
07-10-2009, 11:16 AM
Foreman wouldn't have stood a chance in any way. Remember that there were plenty of trades off the ropes and Ali was dominating George with his quick jabs and movements, as well as hurting him with his right hand.
I don't really see what how he 'wouldn't fall for it a second time'. I mean the lad can't push Ali off the ropes, he would still have to play his game. It's only up to Ali if they're gonna fight a diffirent fight. If Foreman couldn't knock a fighter out, he would lose.

Needless to say he was dominated by Young, almost crushed by Lyle and was starting to become a joke after Ali.
For once I agree with most of what you've written..
I would never regard Foreman as a joke though.. He was one of the most feared opponents of all time.. It appears Ali thought so to..

TheGreatA
07-10-2009, 01:06 PM
I never understood why there wasn’t an immediate rematch in the States.

I've always felt that "The Champion" that loses his title should have the option to get an immediate rematch or at least a rematch within 1 full year time.

Foreman fought stupid in that fight and hadn't properly used his jab since Frazier leading up to the Ali fight.

Foreman did not fight for a year again. Not having an immediate rematch had nothing to do with Ali not giving it, it had everything to do with Foreman trying to deal with the loss.

When he did come back, most felt he had lost his aura of invincibility during the Lyle fight. It was a great fight for sure but he was nearly knocked out by a man whom he was supposed to run right through (of course we can now appreciate Lyle as the tough customer he truly was).

He then fought Frazier who had lost a brutal fight against Ali. Frazier came in at nearly 230 lbs and looked like a shell of himself. Foreman took a couple of rounds more to finish off a finished off Frazier but it was a good performance.

After beating down the undefeated Dino Denis, Foreman stated in the post-fight interview that he would like to have a couple of fights against the top contenders. He fought Jimmy Young in some kind of an eliminator, lost and retired.

TredKiller
07-10-2009, 02:06 PM
Ali would have won again,
he'd find a way.

Benny Leonard
07-10-2009, 03:38 PM
Foreman wouldn't have stood a chance in any way. Remember that there were plenty of trades off the ropes and Ali was dominating George with his quick jabs and movements, as well as hurting him with his right hand.
I don't really see what how he 'wouldn't fall for it a second time'. I mean the lad can't push Ali off the ropes, he would still have to play his game. It's only up to Ali if they're gonna fight a diffirent fight. If Foreman couldn't knock a fighter out, he would lose.

Needless to say he was dominated by Young, almost crushed by Lyle and was starting to become a joke after Ali.

I doubt he falls for the "rope a dope" a second time. Foreman knew it was a mistake after the fight and that it caused himself to wear out. One of the problems in that fight is that Foreman abondened the jab that set up his punches and helped pace himself in a way.

I tend to think some fighters need to get right back in there with the opponent they just lost to instead of getting another "warm-up" fight because in that "warm-up" fight they may be thinking of the opponent they lost to instead of concentrating on the fighter at hand.


Watch the difference in fighting:

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After Frazier:

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Benny Leonard
07-10-2009, 03:39 PM
Ali would have won again,
he'd find a way.

That's very true. Ali has that capability.



Quite note: Ali shoudn't have been able to get away with grabbing Foreman's head and keeping it down. That also helped wear Foreman out and probably stiffened his neck up a bit.

Now I do recognize Ali had to do certain things at certain times because of his declined ability and the opponent he was facing but it still doesn't make it right.


And can someone tell me why nobody taught Foreman to throw with proper technique consistently?

Lots of power gone to waist.

TheGreatA
07-10-2009, 03:43 PM
I doubt he falls for the "rope a dope" a second time. Foreman knew it was a mistake after the fight and that it caused himself to wear out. One of the problems in that fight is that Foreman abondened the jab that set up his punches and helped pace himself in a way.

I tend to think some fighters need to get right back in there with the opponent they just lost to instead of getting another "warm-up" fight because in that "warm-up" fight they may be thinking of the opponent they lost to instead of concentrating on the fighter at hand.

Foreman went wild against Roman but I thought he fought the perfect fight against Norton.

This is after losing to Ali:

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GJC
07-10-2009, 04:46 PM
For once I agree with most of what you've written..


A broken clock is right twice a day :)

GJC
07-10-2009, 04:48 PM
And can someone tell me why nobody taught Foreman to throw with proper technique consistently?



Guess the theory was if it isn't broke don't fix it?
Guess its why keeping an unbeaten record is not as important as losing a few fights and learning the game, ironing out weaknesses etc.

mickey malone
07-10-2009, 04:52 PM
Foreman did not fight for a year again. Not having an immediate rematch had nothing to do with Ali not giving it, it had everything to do with Foreman trying to deal with the loss.

When he did come back, most felt he had lost his aura of invincibility during the Lyle fight. It was a great fight for sure but he was nearly knocked out by a man whom he was supposed to run right through (of course we can now appreciate Lyle as the tough customer he truly was).

He then fought Frazier who had lost a brutal fight against Ali. Frazier came in at nearly 230 lbs and looked like a shell of himself. Foreman took a couple of rounds more to finish off a finished off Frazier but it was a good performance.

After beating down the undefeated Dino Denis, Foreman stated in the post-fight interview that he would like to have a couple of fights against the top contenders. He fought Jimmy Young in some kind of an eliminator, lost and retired.
Bless you my son!! I said exactly the same as you on another thread, & I was shot down in flames by 2 other respectable posters.. After checking what they'd, quoted & it more or less came up trumps, so I conceded, hence the reason for this thread.. To be honest, the whole thing's still wide open, but I'll accept defeat to my right honorable friends in the meantime.. There's bound to be responses from LLR & the Kid...Well I hope so, keeps it interesting...

mickey malone
07-10-2009, 04:54 PM
A broken clock is right twice a day :)
lollollollol You funny old fvcker!!

Benny Leonard
07-10-2009, 05:47 PM
Guess the theory was if it isn't broke don't fix it?
Guess its why keeping an unbeaten record is not as important as losing a few fights and learning the game, ironing out weaknesses etc.

It may have not been broke but it sure wasn't perfect and that is something a person should strive for if you want to be the best in your field.

Actually, I take that back....it was broke if you think about it because his form wasn't good.

A Top mechanic needed to work on that car and tune it up properly and make sure everything was in working condition to get around the track and hit the corners to perfection.

Abstraction
07-10-2009, 07:53 PM
Dude, watch the first bout.

It's not as if George was closing to winning the first bout but then gassed out.

Ali schooled him and was comfortably ahead on all three judges scorecards.

mickey malone
07-10-2009, 09:08 PM
Dude, watch the first bout.

It's not as if George was closing to winning the first bout but then gassed out.

Ali schooled him and was comfortably ahead on all three judges scorecards.
Agreed, but do you think Ali should'a given him a rematch?
He gave rematches to other guys he beat easy, Bugner especially..
If there was reason for a rematch with Bugner, then why not Foreman?

boxingbuff
07-15-2009, 07:58 PM
Although I couldn't quite believe it, I've just found out Muhammad Ali was solely to blame for not giving George Foreman a rematch.. Apparently George chased him for nearly 3 years to no avail, because ALI REFUSED TO BUDGE..
I thought Ali gave everyone rematches... Why am I so wrong??

Your wrong because George Forman was in no condition to fight anybody after getting KO'd by Muhammad Ali.George was in despair and deeply depressed,and grossly over-weight and out of shape.George was in seclusion and hid himself from everybody.

He was in no shape to fight anyone,let alone Muhammad Ali.If there was a rematch 6 months after the 1st fight,it would have been a one-sided joke.Forman was in alot better condition mentally and physically when he fought Ron Lyle.....Where he looked terrible and getting knocked down how many times? If that had been Muhammad Ali instead of Ron Lyle,Forman would not have won a round before getting knocked out!

Dang,who is your source?

While Forman was in despair and depressed,out of shape etc. etc. Ali defended his title 4 times in 1975 while whipping Smokin' Joe Frazier!

Forman was not near ready for Ali until atleast 2 years after the fight in late 1976 and early 1977.Ali was saying I WANT GEORGE FORMAN!!! WHERE IS GEORGE FORMAN!!!! After he beat Norton in September of 1976,and decided not to retire.THEY WOULD HAVE FOUGHT AGAIN had Forman not got beat by Jimmy Young.

Again.....Forman was deeply depressed and in deep despair after getting KO'd by Ali in Zaire.He did not train and got fat and out of shape.I mean alot worse then how he looked against Ron Lyle in his 1sr fight after Zaire.

Forman fighting Ali within a year after getting KO'd by Ali would have been a joke! Finally....Forman did not even want a rematch with Ali until 2 years after getting KO'd in Zaire.So Ali defended his title 8 times in those 2 years.

Fighting Forman(Who literally lost his mind)within' a year after KO'ing him in Zaire would have been a joke! Ali ducked NOBODY!!

alfredkubin
07-16-2009, 01:56 AM
I think Ali fought an insane number of top heavyweights in the seventies, but he definitely ducked Foreman. The way I see it, his third fight with Norton was the key to this decision, because this fight showed that "he was through as a fighter" (original quote from a Sports Illustrated article) and he knew it. He had many brutal wars and should have retired right then and there, but greed and the people around him made him milk out some more money, and they arranged some fights with lesser opponents (Evangelista, Shavers, Spinks). At that stage in his career, he was planning his retirement and didn´t want any part of Foreman.

For anyone intereste din the full SI article

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1091645/index.htm

D-MiZe
07-16-2009, 01:58 AM
I'm always quite uneasy about Ali's pre-fight antics.

I don't take any offense from them, but going to George's gym and throwing chairs at him and calling him an Uncle Tom is just wrong.

mickey malone
07-16-2009, 08:30 AM
Your wrong because George Forman was in no condition to fight anybody after getting KO'd by Muhammad Ali.George was in despair and deeply depressed,and grossly over-weight and out of shape.George was in seclusion and hid himself from everybody.

He was in no shape to fight anyone,let alone Muhammad Ali.If there was a rematch 6 months after the 1st fight,it would have been a one-sided joke.Forman was in alot better condition mentally and physically when he fought Ron Lyle.....Where he looked terrible and getting knocked down how many times? If that had been Muhammad Ali instead of Ron Lyle,Forman would not have won a round before getting knocked out!

Dang,who is your source?

While Forman was in despair and depressed,out of shape etc. etc. Ali defended his title 4 times in 1975 while whipping Smokin' Joe Frazier!

Forman was not near ready for Ali until atleast 2 years after the fight in late 1976 and early 1977.Ali was saying I WANT GEORGE FORMAN!!! WHERE IS GEORGE FORMAN!!!! After he beat Norton in September of 1976,and decided not to retire.THEY WOULD HAVE FOUGHT AGAIN had Forman not got beat by Jimmy Young.

Again.....Forman was deeply depressed and in deep despair after getting KO'd by Ali in Zaire.He did not train and got fat and out of shape.I mean alot worse then how he looked against Ron Lyle in his 1sr fight after Zaire.

Forman fighting Ali within a year after getting KO'd by Ali would have been a joke! Finally....Forman did not even want a rematch with Ali until 2 years after getting KO'd in Zaire.So Ali defended his title 8 times in those 2 years.

Fighting Forman(Who literally lost his mind)within' a year after KO'ing him in Zaire would have been a joke! Ali ducked NOBODY!!
Well, I was of this opinion also, but the forum in general seems to be divided as to what actually happened.. I've had this argument on other threads, & to be honest, it's still in limbo.. I know George called him out a few times,(seen the vids) but if he was unfit to fight, then you could be right up there... I'm still not sure though.. Keep going, & let's find out.. Need some more input from Rooster & GreatA, they're pretty knowledgeable posters, who I believe back George on this one..

sonnyboyx2
07-16-2009, 12:57 PM
Although I couldn't quite believe it, I've just found out Muhammad Ali was solely to blame for not giving George Foreman a rematch.. Apparently George chased him for nearly 3 years to no avail, because ALI REFUSED TO BUDGE..
I thought Ali gave everyone rematches... Why am I so wrong??
Foreman NEVER chased Ali for 3yrs nor did he ever look to get a rematch, Foreman was beaten so easily in Zaire that no-one called for a rematch and if it had ever happened Ali would have KOd Foreman within 6rds

mickey malone
07-16-2009, 01:21 PM
Foreman NEVER chased Ali for 3yrs nor did he ever look to get a rematch, Foreman was beaten so easily in Zaire that no-one called for a rematch and if it had ever happened Ali would have KOd Foreman within 6rds
Yes... I know.... That's why I did the thread... Thanks for your input..

Davros?
07-16-2009, 01:40 PM
And Foreman didn't fight Holmes when Holmes called him out. Everyone can be accused of ducking someone i tend to ignore all that sort of thing.

boxingbuff
07-16-2009, 04:04 PM
Foreman was muttering about the ropes were to lose,the heat got to him,and Oh he was drugged,lol

Again,Foreman was in deep despair,and deeply depressed,in shock,over weight,out of shape etc. etc. after getting KO'd by Muhammad Ali.

He was in NO CONDITION to fight anyone,let alone Muhammad Ali.Foreman "slowly" came out of his funk,and started wanting a rematch with Ali.BUT he got beat by Jimmy Young.About 2 years after whipping Foreman,Ali himself was in no condition to keep fighting at a high level.But he did "call out" George Forman in early 1977 after deciding not to retire.

When Foreman made excuses about losing the first fight...The ropes were to lose,I was drugged,the heat got to me....Ali said:It wasn't the African weather,it was the Ali leather,lol

Kid McCoy
07-16-2009, 05:20 PM
Foreman NEVER chased Ali for 3yrs nor did he ever look to get a rematch, Foreman was beaten so easily in Zaire that no-one called for a rematch and if it had ever happened Ali would have KOd Foreman within 6rds

Foreman most certainly did want a rematch. It's complete nonsense to say he didn't. He was in all the boxing magazines calling him out and on the front cover of Sports Illustrated calling him out. He called him out after all of his comeback fights. He also gatecrashed an Ali press conference and called him out to his face. Ali on the other hand never seemed willing to commit.

There were various big money offers being bandied around. In his '75 Playboy interview Ali mentioned an offer of $7.5m from an oil businessman to fight Foreman in Indonesia. Foreman mentioned a $5.5m-$4.5m offer in his '75 SI interview and claimed Ali wouldn't touch it.

Zaire was a close, gruelling fight where Ali came out on top. Ali admitted to being out on his feet without Foreman knowing and was pissing blood for days afterwards, so I don't buy all that stuff about him winning easily, or him winning a rematch easily, especially since the only fighters Ali KO'd within 6 rounds after Zaire were Jean-Pierre Coopman and Richard Dunn. I'd want see them fight several times before making anyone a gimme over George Foreman.

Foreman wanted it, the public wanted it, and it would have been a huge payday for both men. When you also consider that journeymen like Wepner, Coopman, Dunn and Evangelista all got undeserved title shots between 75-77, I don't see any reason why the fight shouldn't have happened.

them_apples
07-16-2009, 05:48 PM
Ali beat him but I sure as hell wouldn't want to go through that hell again if I was Ali. he said so himself he was out on his feet a few times in the fight.

EDIT: someone beat me to it

TheGreatA
07-16-2009, 06:32 PM
Ali beat him but I sure as hell wouldn't want to go through that hell again if I was Ali. he said so himself he was out on his feet a few times in the fight.

EDIT: someone beat me to it

He may have said that later but immediately after the fight he stated the fight was "easy" and that Foreman didn't hit nearly as hard as he thought.

It really didn't look like "hell" to me. The third Frazier fight was "hell", the Foreman fight was a sloppy fight which Ali was winning in my opinion.

He did take some powerful body punches, which mostly hit Ali's elbows (a testament to Foreman's power if it did hurt Ali that much), but the majority of the punches to the head missed. I can't find any moment in the fight in which Ali appears out on his feet.

princemanspoper
07-16-2009, 07:37 PM
Perhaps you should grow a sack and rather than sticking your tail between your legs actually don't cower to old bitter men over the f*cking internet.

I know Joe frazier ducked George foreman for almost two years before he fought foreman.Just like he ducked ron lyle,mac foster,earnie shavers,leotis martin,al lewis and a washed up sonny liston ut that's an entirely different story


Zaire was a close, gruelling fight where Ali came out on top. Ali admitted to being out on his feet without Foreman knowing and was pissing blood for days afterwards, so I don't buy all that stuff about him winning easily, or him winning a rematch easily, especially since the only fighters Ali KO'd within 6 rounds after Zaire were Jean-Pierre Coopman and Richard Dunn. I'd want see them fight several times before making anyone a gimme over George Foreman.

pissing blood is irrelevant,I suppose at your age you do it regularly ali was still clearly ahead by the time of the stoppage,he was successfully countering of the ropes with the cleaner more effective blows throughout the entire fight to think otherwise shows great delusion

princemanspoper
07-16-2009, 07:46 PM
It really didn't look like "hell" to me. The third Frazier fight was "hell",

Apart from being a boring and very overrated fight.It's been romanticized into their so called great trilogy,dramatized into being something it wasn't.A close competitive fight it most certainly wasn't,this was despite ali showing up to the fight as a bloated fat f*ck and giving his body to frazier during the middle rounds,frazier couldn't land anything but flailing arm thrusts with added sound effects.You compare ken nortons body work against ali in their third fight to fraziers and there's no comparison.Norton landed clean then again ken norton never got the gift of fighting a a rusty undefeated ali to base his entire legacy off like frazier

poor kenny

TheGreatA
07-16-2009, 07:54 PM
Apart from being a boring and very overrated fight.It's been romanticized into their so called great trilogy,dramatized into being something it wasn't.A close competitive fight it most certainly wasn't,this was despite ali showing up to the fight as a bloated fat f*ck and giving his body to frazier during the middle rounds,frazier couldn't land anything but flailing arm thrusts with added sound effects.You compare ken nortons body work against ali in their third fight to fraziers and there's no comparison.Norton landed clean then again ken norton never got the gift of fighting a a rusty undefeated ali to base his entire legacy off like frazier

poor kenny

Sure.

Ali was in great shape as was Frazier. Frazier's body shots in that fight would have brought down just about anyone else other than Ali.

Norton based his legacy off Frazier left-overs.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0905/sports.feuds/images/ali-frazier.jpg

TheGreatA
07-16-2009, 08:01 PM
I know Joe frazier ducked George foreman for almost two years before he fought foreman.Just like he ducked ron lyle,mac foster,earnie shavers,leotis martin,al lewis and a washed up sonny liston ut that's an entirely different story

Foreman agreed to step aside for Frazier to fight Ali. Foreman was still a work in progress at the time.

Ron Lyle, Mac Foster and Earnie Shavers were Jerry Quarry victims when Frazier was still around. By the time they proved themselves as contenders (Foster never did), Frazier was shot.

Leotis Martin suffered a detached retina and retired.

Liston was a high risk/low reward opponent for a young Frazier. No one wanted to fight him because of the way he had lost to Ali.

Frazier ducked Al Lewis? :wtf:

Kid McCoy
07-16-2009, 08:10 PM
Ppissing blood is irrelevant,I suppose at your age you do it regularly ali was still clearly ahead by the time of the stoppage,he was successfully countering of the ropes with the cleaner more effective blows throughout the entire fight to think otherwise shows great delusion

lol, at my age? Do you know how old I am?

I suppose you're still giggling about the birds and the bees in biology and hoping Nellie Jenkins will give you a glimpse of her knickers behind the bike shed.

Delusion is thinking the way you saw a fight is the only way that fight can be seen. Ali never seemed that keen to get back in the ring with Foreman again, which is surprising considering how big the fight was and how easy some seem to think it would've been for him. It's almost like those Mayweather and Jones fans handing them easy internet wins over guys they turned down big money to face in reality.

Ziggy Stardust
07-16-2009, 08:23 PM
Apart from being a boring and very overrated fight.It's been romanticized into their so called great trilogy,dramatized into being something it wasn't.A close competitive fight it most certainly wasn't,this was despite ali showing up to the fight as a bloated fat f*ck and giving his body to frazier during the middle rounds,frazier couldn't land anything but flailing arm thrusts with added sound effects.You compare ken nortons body work against ali in their third fight to fraziers and there's no comparison.Norton landed clean then again ken norton never got the gift of fighting a a rusty undefeated ali to base his entire legacy off like frazier

poor kenny

Let's all play "Guess The Alt"! :nonono:

Poet

princemanspoper
07-16-2009, 08:30 PM
Yes,while it is easy to sneer at records in this day and age those particular fighters were ranked contenders,all of whom except shavers ranked during fraziers prime,they were sure as hell higher ranked than ron stander and terry daniels both of whom were never even in the top 20

lyle and foster were both due their title shots before being handed over to quarry(fraziers own personal gatekeeper)

leotis martin had been a top ranked contender for over a year before he even beat liston.Dave Zyglewicz was nowhere near the top ten yet he recieved a title shot against frazier,liston called out frazier and even managed to slip his way back into the top rankings during his comeback yet no response from frazier or his team,it was a fight the boxing media and fans wanted to see yet frazier wanted no part and al lewis did everything in their power to try and force a fight with razier almost coming close to a december 67 bout but to no avail,losing to stallings and martin didn't help his cause but razier avoided him none the less

In a great era stacked with huge punchers frazier managed to only step up against one

them_apples
07-16-2009, 08:36 PM
He may have said that later but immediately after the fight he stated the fight was "easy" and that Foreman didn't hit nearly as hard as he thought.

It really didn't look like "hell" to me. The third Frazier fight was "hell", the Foreman fight was a sloppy fight which Ali was winning in my opinion.

He did take some powerful body punches, which mostly hit Ali's elbows (a testament to Foreman's power if it did hurt Ali that much), but the majority of the punches to the head missed. I can't find any moment in the fight in which Ali appears out on his feet.

I always here everyone saying he just hit arms...

i've watched the fight a few times, there were certain rounds when he was unloading some very very hard body shots on Ali. He looked sloppy for a good deal of the fight, but he did have moments.

Ali obviously downplayed Foreman after, thats what he does. trying to make his win seem even greater. He said he was just praying for George to get tired at times.

princemanspoper
07-16-2009, 08:41 PM
lol, at my age? Do you know how old I am?

I suppose you're still giggling about the birds and the bees in biology and hoping Nellie Jenkins will give you a glimpse of her knickers behind the bike shed.

Delusion is thinking the way you saw a fight is the only way that fight can be seen. Ali never seemed that keen to get back in the ring with Foreman again, which is surprising considering how big the fight was and how easy some seem to think it would've been for him. It's almost like those Mayweather and Jones fans handing them easy internet wins over guys they turned down big money to face in reality.

And for good reason,that fight took alot out of ali,Physically and mentally he never looked the same in the ring and you would be hard pressed to find an impressive performance from him afterwards.he had to and did take a beating to the body,doesn't mean the fight was close based upon a round by round system.

I didn't mention mayweather so what's your point? I think you spend a little more time concerning yourself with floyd jr throughout the day than you should

Nellie Jenkins? I didn't grow up during the 1950's and I don't want to hear your sick antasies concerning your niece sunshine ok?

TheGreatA
07-16-2009, 08:44 PM
Yes,while it is easy to sneer at records in this day and age those particular fighters were ranked contenders,all of whom except shavers ranked during fraziers prime,they were sure as hell higher ranked than ron stander and terry daniels both of whom were never even in the top 20

Stander knocked out Shavers. He was a good enough opponent for Norton to fight when Stander was coming off about 10 losses in a row.

The contenders are not supposed to lose to what was basically considered a Frazier left-over (Quarry) if they want a shot at the title.

lyle and foster were both due their title shots before being handed over to quarry(fraziers own personal gatekeeper)

They had their shot to become Frazier's top contender by beating a top ranked opponent (Quarry), and blew it.

leotis martin had been a top ranked contender for over a year before he even beat liston.Dave Zyglewicz was nowhere near the top ten yet he recieved a title shot against frazier,liston called out frazier and even managed to slip his way back into the top rankings during his comeback yet no response from frazier or his team,it was a fight the boxing media and fans wanted to see yet frazier wanted no part and al lewis did everything in their power to try and force a fight with razier almost coming close to a december 67 bout but to no avail,losing to stallings and martin didn't help his cause but razier avoided him none the less

Liston only ever called out Quarry from what I know. He got back in the rankings and was then eliminated by Martin who himself had to retire due to an eye injury he suffered in the fight.

That was Martin's biggest victory by far and would've probably got him a shot, if he had been able to continue his career. Before that he had lost decisively to Frazier opponents Bonavena and Ellis whom Frazier fought.

Frazier avoided a fighter who kept losing and losing whenever he stepped up? You would blame him for fighting Lewis had he done that because Lewis in no way deserved a shot at Frazier at any point in his career.

In a great era stacked with huge punchers frazier managed to only step up against one

Bonavena could punch
Ramos could punch
Quarry could punch
Chuvalo could punch
Ali, Machen and Ellis were a sharp hitters
Bob Foster was a big light heavyweight puncher
Mathis had KO'd his last 10 opponents before fighting Frazier

No, he never fought any other puncher on the level of George Foreman but then again there weren't any aside from maybe Shavers whose limitations were badly exposed by Quarry, who stopped him in one round.

TheGreatA
07-16-2009, 08:54 PM
I always here everyone saying he just hit arms...

i've watched the fight a few times, there were certain rounds when he was unloading some very very hard body shots on Ali. He looked sloppy for a good deal of the fight, but he did have moments.

Ali obviously downplayed Foreman after, thats what he does. trying to make his win seem even greater. He said he was just praying for George to get tired at times.

No he actually made Foreman out to be a clown after the fight but afterwards he realized that he was actually discrediting his own win.

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BOLLOCKS
07-16-2009, 08:56 PM
What a racist *****. :nonono:

Kid McCoy
07-16-2009, 09:05 PM
And for good reason,that fight took alot out of ali,Physically and mentally he never looked the same in the ring and you would be hard pressed to find an impressive performance from him afterwards.he had to and did take a beating to the body,doesn't mean the fight was close based upon a round by round system.

I didn't mention mayweather so what's your point? I think you spend a little more time concerning yourself with floyd jr throughout the day than you should

Nellie Jenkins? I didn't grow up during the 1950's and I don't want to hear your sick antasies concerning your niece sunshine ok?

So you accept that the fight took a lot out of Ali and that he was wise not to take the rematch. In which case our views aren't that far apart, we just disagree on the scoring of rounds.

If you'd said that to begin with rather than making a slew of assumptions and trying to be patronising, it would have spared us all the above nonsense.

princemanspoper
07-17-2009, 12:04 AM
He was wise to avoid another physically gruelling battle(stupid enough to take such against earnie shavers later on).Would foreman have beat ali in a rematch? I doubt it,foreman showed absolutely no improvements on his return after ali,he was still the same old freak of nature who fell in love with his brute strength

mickey malone
07-17-2009, 04:56 AM
He was wise to avoid another physically gruelling battle(stupid enough to take such against earnie shavers later on).Would foreman have beat ali in a rematch? I doubt it,foreman showed absolutely no improvements on his return after ali,he was still the same old freak of nature who fell in love with his brute strength
So.... We can safely say, that only Ali prevented the rematch from taking place?..... Or was Foreman only spouting bravado?

Abstraction
07-17-2009, 06:56 AM
So.... We can safely say, that only Ali prevented the rematch from taking place?..... Or was Foreman only spouting bravado?

In all seriousness, you can't blame Ali imo.

Don't forget the first bout just about happened. Had the bout been closer or controversial, everyone would have pushed for a rematch.

But truth be told, did anyone push for one? An immediate rematch was out of the cards.

Any rematch later went down the drain when Foreman struggled against Lyle and co.

mickey malone
07-17-2009, 08:08 AM
In all seriousness, you can't blame Ali imo.

Don't forget the first bout just about happened. Had the bout been closer or controversial, everyone would have pushed for a rematch.

But truth be told, did anyone push for one? An immediate rematch was out of the cards.

Any rematch later went down the drain when Foreman struggled against Lyle and co.
This is just it.... Not anyone.. But did Foreman himself push for a rematch?... This is where the thread is divided... My initial response, was that Foreman wanted none of it, well at least not a repeat of the 1st fight, which general consensus suggests it would have been.. So all I want to know is, was a dormant Foreman ignored in favor of Coopman, Dunn etc, by Ali??..... If so, my original argument would be proven right.. But if George chased Ali for 3 years (which I don't recall) then my argument is proven wrong, & I wouldn't have written this thread in the 1st place...

Kid McCoy
07-17-2009, 08:53 AM
This is just it.... Not anyone.. But did Foreman himself push for a rematch?... This is where the thread is divided... My initial response, was that Foreman wanted none of it, well at least not a repeat of the 1st fight, which general consensus suggests it would have been.. So all I want to know is, was a dormant Foreman ignored in favor of Coopman, Dunn etc, by Ali??..... If so, my original argument would be proven right.. But if George chased Ali for 3 years (which I don't recall) then my argument is proven wrong, & I wouldn't have written this thread in the 1st place...

Foreman wasn't dormant when Ali was fighting Coopman and Dunn. He went 4-0 with 4 KOs that year, and pushed for a rematch constantly. Part of the reason why he was inactive so long was he was expecting an immediate rematch and when it didn't happen he was left in the lurch.

Despite the loss to Ali he still had recent dominant wins over Norton and Frazier, the only other heavyweights in his calibre from 74-77, and despite the often curious rankings few considered them better than him in that time frame.

As for his performance against Lyle putting him out of contention, well losing to Lorenzo Zanon in his previous fight didn't stop Evangelista getting a title shot...

mickey malone
07-17-2009, 09:37 AM
Foreman wasn't dormant when Ali was fighting Coopman and Dunn. He went 4-0 with 4 KOs that year, and pushed for a rematch constantly. Part of the reason why he was inactive so long was he was expecting an immediate rematch and when it didn't happen he was left in the lurch.

Despite the loss to Ali he still had recent dominant wins over Norton and Frazier, the only other heavyweights in his calibre from 74-77, and despite the often curious rankings few considered them better than him in that time frame.

As for his performance against Lyle putting him out of contention, well losing to Lorenzo Zanon in his previous fight didn't stop Evangelista getting a title shot...
I think it was your good self Kid, who inspired my original restlessness.. I'm big on Ali & Foreman, & would like to think he didn't duck any rematches.. That's all.. I'm more than glad of your Knowledge on this, & will hopefully withdraw the alegation shortly..

-PedoBear-
07-17-2009, 09:39 AM
Although I couldn't quite believe it, I've just found out Muhammad Ali was solely to blame for not giving George Foreman a rematch.. Apparently George chased him for nearly 3 years to no avail, because ALI REFUSED TO BUDGE..
I thought Ali gave everyone rematches... Why am I so wrong??

good point!

boxingbuff
07-17-2009, 07:56 PM
AGAIN......Right after his humilating loss to Ali, Foreman was in no condition to fight anyone.See my previous posts.

Ali always saved his hardest fight for the last fight of the year,after he regained the title from Forman. He fought lesser opponents building up to the big fight.

Example:

1975....Wepner(A nobody),Lyle(A little better),Bugner(Good fighter)Frazier!

1976...Coopman(Nobody),Young(A suppossed nobody),Dunn,Norton!

It's true Forman "finally" wanted Ali in 1976,but Ali planned on fighting Forman in 1977 after winning his "rubber match" with Nortan.

Ali wanted to win "rubber matches" against Frazier and Norton before retiring,and having the better of both men before retiring.After the 3rd Norton fight he was deciding wheter to retire(Which took 3 months to decide).When he decided to keep fighting he CALLED OUT George Forman!! But Forman lost to Jimmy Young and retired.

But during the rest of 1974 and most of 1975 Forman NEVER called out Ali...He was mumbling over and over again why he lost...The ropes were loose,the heat,and he was drugged! Meanwhile Forman was not in training.He was near 300 lbs,he was deeply depressed,in dispair,in shock,and quite frankly not mentally stable.Those around him could not get him to go in the gym...He fired his trainers and managers.He was falling apart.During this time he was in NO CONDITION TO FIGHT ANYBODY,let alone Muhammad Ali.All he did was make excuses,make bad decisions,get fat and overweight,and out of shape.

So from October 1974 and most of 1975 HE DID NOTHING!! He finally started his comeback against Ron Lyle and got knocked down how many times? Looked sloppy,out of shape,and terrible.Your telling me THAT George Forman could fight Muhammad Ali,lol

Late in 1976 he was finally about 85% of the fighter he was against Ali in Zaire,and a rematch would be worth fighting.Ali was the one CALLING OUT George Forman early 1977!! But George gets beat by Jimmy Young.

The Forman from Oct 1974-1975 would have been a joke trying to fight Ali.HE WAS A MESS!! Forman did not with good intent want to fight ANYBODY right after his big KO loss to Ali. What part of that don't you understand?

princemanspoper
07-17-2009, 08:04 PM
I think it was your good self Kid, who inspired my original restlessness.. I'm big on Ali & Foreman, & would like to think he didn't duck any rematches.. That's all.. I'm more than glad of your Knowledge on this, & will hopefully withdraw the alegation shortly..


And if you are a 41 year old man who thinks human beings are super men then I think it's about time you grow up

mickey malone
07-18-2009, 06:40 AM
And if you are a 41 year old man who thinks human beings are super men then I think it's about time you grow up
I have nothing to hide..

It clearly states that I'm 45 on my avatar..

Once again, You CLEARLY expose youself as a drunk who licks car bumpers..

princemanspoper
07-18-2009, 06:53 AM
Oops then your 4 years older my mistake.Oh well atleast I don't make the mistake of believing that boxers are supermen,atleast I don't make the mistake of believing boxers are imperect role models who can do nothing wrong in life


and I also don't make the mistake of letting old bitter bully boy posters end me over and let them *uck me around

would you know something about the last part?

mickey malone
07-18-2009, 07:20 AM
Oops then your 4 years older my mistake.Oh well atleast I don't make the mistake of believing that boxers are supermen,atleast I don't make the mistake of believing boxers are imperect role models who can do nothing wrong in life


and I also don't make the mistake of letting old bitter bully boy posters end me over and let them *uck me around

would you know something about the last part?
'end me over'??.... No I wouldn't....

People that come on here drunk are always a scream.. lol....

Trust me.... Nobody accepts a bollocking from a man that's pissed himself...