View Full Version : If Rumble In The Jungle Happened In A Cage


Kinetic Linking
07-09-2009, 04:07 PM
George Foreman wins by early KO.

Miburo
07-09-2009, 04:10 PM
Then it wouldn't be boxing. No one in the history of the sport could brawl with Foreman and survive.

JAB5239
07-09-2009, 04:25 PM
George Foreman wins by early KO.

Come on, this is like saying if it happened on a football field George would have never laid a glove on him. There are boxing rules for a reason, and Foreman lost fair and square.

TheGreatA
07-09-2009, 04:28 PM
They could have fought it in a phone booth. It's not like Ali used movement to beat Foreman.

Kinetic Linking
07-09-2009, 04:31 PM
I don't consider the ropes to be an integral part of "boxing."

GJC
07-09-2009, 04:32 PM
They could have fought it in a phone booth. It's not like Ali used movement to beat Foreman.
Very true this was one occassion when size did not matter

TheGreatA
07-09-2009, 04:34 PM
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Kinetic Linking
07-09-2009, 04:39 PM
now you guys are pushing it. You can argue with the nature of the hypothetical situation, even though I think it's a reasonable one, but to disagree with the conclusion?

Ali used the ROPES to win that fight. Without the ability to diffuse Foreman's power by leaning against the ropes, Ali loses that fight every time. That's why they called it Rope a Dope. No ropes in a phone booth, no ropes in a cage, no ropes on a football field. And yeah, I think Foreman would win on the football field as well. Ali simply couldn't outmaneuver him for long enough. Without a place to hide, he was done.

TheGreatA
07-09-2009, 04:46 PM
now you guys are pushing it. You can argue with the nature of the hypothetical situation, even though I think it's a reasonable one, but to disagree with the conclusion?

Ali used the ROPES to win that fight. Without the ability to diffuse Foreman's power by leaning against the ropes, Ali loses that fight every time. That's why they called it Rope a Dope. No ropes in a phone booth, no ropes in a cage, no ropes on a football field. And yeah, I think Foreman would win on the football field as well. Ali simply couldn't outmaneuver him for long enough. Without a place to hide, he was done.

I don't see how leaning against the ropes could diffuse Foreman's power.

Foreman's whole strategy was to get his opponent against the ropes/cornered. He was simply wide open for counter punches and threw punches that a smart boxer could see coming from a mile away.

Peralta, Ali and Young were the best boxers he fought during his first career, it is no surprise that he struggled with all of them.

Ali didn't exactly have a glass jaw either. When Earnie Shavers landed pin-point right hands on Ali's jaw (ones that Ali never saw coming), they had little effect on him.

Kinetic Linking
07-09-2009, 04:47 PM
come on A, post the rest. Man I love that fight. It's so much better than liston Ali because Ali actually clashes with foreman's strength, albeit while diffusing the power against the ropes.

fight_professor
07-09-2009, 04:49 PM
now you guys are pushing it. You can argue with the nature of the hypothetical situation, even though I think it's a reasonable one, but to disagree with the conclusion?

Ali used the ROPES to win that fight. Without the ability to diffuse Foreman's power by leaning against the ropes, Ali loses that fight every time. That's why they called it Rope a Dope. No ropes in a phone booth, no ropes in a cage, no ropes on a football field. And yeah, I think Foreman would win on the football field as well. Ali simply couldn't outmaneuver him for long enough. Without a place to hide, he was done.

Using the ropes is legitimate boxing strategy. Go read a book. :tool:

TheGreatA
07-09-2009, 04:49 PM
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Kinetic Linking
07-09-2009, 04:55 PM
Great A, simple phenomenon that I'm surprised you aren't aware of. If you stand planted on your feet and absorb a blow, you take most of the force. If you lean against elastic ropes, the difference is massive. You don't pick it up easily just watching the fight, but if you think about it and/or experiment you'll understand what's going on.

Kinetic Linking
07-09-2009, 05:00 PM
And captain sam, I never suggested it wasn't a legitimate strategy. What I said was that if they fight in a cage, Foreman wins. You go read a book. And go screw yourself.

TheGreatA
07-09-2009, 05:04 PM
Great A, simple phenomenon that I'm surprised you aren't aware of. If you stand planted on your feet and absorb a blow, you take most of the force. If you lean against elastic ropes, the difference is massive. You don't pick it up easily just watching the fight, but if you think about it and/or experiment you'll understand what's going on.

Frazier and Norton made Ali pay for his habit of laying on the ropes. Neither of them may have been able to beat Foreman, because in a straight-up brawl the one with the bigger punch and the better chin usually wins, but they used their abilities much better than Foreman.

The ropes did not lose the fight for Foreman, his atrocious punching technique and lack of ring intelligence did.

Look at Frazier pick his shots at around 2:30 in the video:

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If Foreman had been able to land those kind of punches, he would have probably won.

Ziggy Stardust
07-09-2009, 05:33 PM
Boxing isn't fought in a cage. Low-brow MMA is fought in a cage. There's a BIG difference between the Sweet Science and crude MMA ****e.

Poet

Kinetic Linking
07-09-2009, 05:57 PM
western boxing is one of many disciplines employed by Mixed Martial Artists who fight in a cage.

Non poet

Ziggy Stardust
07-09-2009, 06:00 PM
western boxing is one of many disciplines employed by Mixed Martial Artists who fight in a cage.

Non poet

Along with a whole bunch of other crap no self-respecting boxer would do. I'd rather watch underwater basket weaving then MMA garbage. But hey, I guess SOME people must actually LIKE watching two grown men fondle each other while they roll around on the floor.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
07-09-2009, 06:02 PM
western boxing is one of many disciplines employed by Mixed Martial Artists who fight in a cage.

Non poet

I'm starting to think you're a violence freak who only tunes into boxing to see someone get KTFO.

Poet

Kinetic Linking
07-09-2009, 06:19 PM
hahaaa poet's legit insane. Boxing is violence, don't pretend it isn't. The most violent fighters (dempsey and tyson) have always drawn the biggests crowds. It's a beautiful sport but don't pretend the beauty is exclusive of the violence. If you think it is, I suggest you actually take yourself up on that underwater basketweaving idea.

Southpaw Stinger
07-09-2009, 06:26 PM
You'd think the last place you'd want to be against Foreman is on the ropes. I'd rather be on the other side of the ropes.

RightCross94
07-09-2009, 07:53 PM
they might as well have fought in a cage, ali didnt move all that much

Ziggy Stardust
07-09-2009, 08:09 PM
hahaaa poet's legit insane. Boxing is violence, don't pretend it isn't. The most violent fighters (dempsey and tyson) have always drawn the biggests crowds. It's a beautiful sport but don't pretend the beauty is exclusive of the violence. If you think it is, I suggest you actually take yourself up on that underwater basketweaving idea.

I watch boxing for many reasons but the violence isn't one of them. Unlike you I don't get off on that ****e. Maybe MMA is indeed the sport for you as you seem to lack the intellect for a more sophisticated sport such as boxing. MMA is the perfect entertainment venue for someone such as yourself who's higher brain functions seem to be stuck on the caveman level.

Poet

Kinetic Linking
07-09-2009, 08:46 PM
You're in the minority. Like I said, Tyson and Dempsey drew the biggest crowds because they were the most violent. People pay to see knockouts.

Anyway, I wasn't at all offended by that comment, even though you did call me stupid. I will watch a little more MMA as I do like excitement. To be fair, though, the two sports have a lot in common. Boxing is still the dominant discipline in heavyweight MMA, and a lot of the top MMA guys aren't nearly as talented as the top boxing guys (see sylvia vs. mercer).

Actually, to backtrack a little, I'm going to call bull**** on your disinterest in violence. There's just no way a boxing fan doesn't like violence. If you didn't, you'd be too repulsed to watch. If you're looking for beauty, watch ice skating, dancing, or even basketball. The term "sweet science" has always been semi-ironic. Boxing is a brutal sport, and if you don't get it, you're the dummy.

paul750
07-09-2009, 09:02 PM
I don't see how leaning against the ropes could diffuse Foreman's power.

Foreman's whole strategy was to get his opponent against the ropes/cornered. He was simply wide open for counter punches and threw punches that a smart boxer could see coming from a mile away.

Peralta, Ali and Young were the best boxers he fought during his first career, it is no surprise that he struggled with all of them.

Ali didn't exactly have a glass jaw either. When Earnie Shavers landed pin-point right hands on Ali's jaw (ones that Ali never saw coming), they had little effect on him.

There's no give at all against a cage. There's plenty of slack against ropes, though. And if we're talking about small gloves, that's another big reason. Also remember that you cannot use the same type of guard when you aren't wearing boxing gloves. Those bone crunching shots in that situation would wear almost anyone down. Ali could take a punch, but he wasn't made of rubber. There's no way he could have stood against a cage and took those punches from a guy wearing mitts.

paul750
07-09-2009, 09:06 PM
You'd think the last place you'd want to be against Foreman is on the ropes. I'd rather be on the other side of the ropes.

It's somewhat of an illusion though. With the ropes being slack Ali wasn't taking the type of blows he would be if he was standing up against something solid.

Ziggy Stardust
07-09-2009, 09:25 PM
You're in the minority. Like I said, Tyson and Dempsey drew the biggest crowds because they were the most violent. People pay to see knockouts.

Guess what? I don't. I'm just as happy watching a chess match ending in a split decision as I am a punch out ending in a KO.


Actually, to backtrack a little, I'm going to call bull**** on your disinterest in violence. There's just no way a boxing fan doesn't like violence. If you didn't, you'd be too repulsed to watch. If you're looking for beauty, watch ice skating, dancing, or even basketball. The term "sweet science" has always been semi-ironic. Boxing is a brutal sport, and if you don't get it, you're the dummy.

Violence neither attracts nor repulses me. I prefer the cerebral side of boxing in anycase. I'm not into featuring a lot of gratuitous violence for violence sake (Resevour Dogs is NOT on my watch list) nor do I play video games filled with overt blood and guts. Sorry, not into that sort of thing. As for fighters, my preference is for the skilled boxer-puncher as opposed to the crude sluggers.

Poet

Southpaw Stinger
07-09-2009, 09:26 PM
It's somewhat of an illusion though. With the ropes being slack Ali wasn't taking the type of blows he would be if he was standing up against something solid.

The fact remains though that Foreman had Ali right in front of him and couldn't put him away.

Kinetic Linking
07-09-2009, 09:28 PM
so you're completely indifferent to violence. Now that's strange.

Southpaw Stinger
07-09-2009, 09:33 PM
Love me some violence.

0Rooster4Life0
07-09-2009, 10:41 PM
Saying the Ropes took away some power could very well be true..But what people cant deny is during that time Foreman fought Norton and Frazier, in BOTH fights Foreman KEY punch was the uppercut, it destroyed them both. In Rumble in The Jungle Ali leaned back which made it impossible for Foreman to land his Key Uppercut, I think he threw 2 Uppercuts the whole fight , and i think he missed them both....


ROOSTER

TheGreatA
07-10-2009, 12:13 AM
Saying the Ropes took away some power could very well be true..But what people cant deny is during that time Foreman fought Norton and Frazier, in BOTH fights Foreman KEY punch was the uppercut, it destroyed them both. In Rumble in The Jungle Ali leaned back which made it impossible for Foreman to land his Key Uppercut, I think he threw 2 Uppercuts the whole fight , and i think he missed them both....


ROOSTER

He landed a few uppercuts on Ali, I think he landed a really powerful one in one of the rounds, but Ali was much different stylistically than Norton and Frazier were and would have always leaned away from the uppercut anyway, ropes or not. Norton and Frazier were both crouching pressure fighters.

Lets not make this fight out to be some kind of a one-sided beating Ali took until Foreman collapsed from exhaustion. Ali landed every punch on the book and stunned Foreman several times with counter punches. He was up on all scorecards at the time of the stoppage.

Foreman was never allowed to throw the kind of punches he threw against Norton and Frazier.

TheGreatA
07-10-2009, 12:18 AM
He landed a few uppercuts on Ali, I think he landed a really powerful one in one of the rounds, but Ali was much different stylistically than Norton and Frazier were and would have always leaned away from the uppercut anyway, ropes or not. Norton and Frazier were both crouching pressure fighters.

Lets not make this fight out to be some kind of a one-sided beating Ali took until Foreman collapsed from exhaustion. Ali landed every punch on the book and stunned Foreman several times with counter punches. He was up on all scorecards at the time of the stoppage.

Foreman was never allowed to throw the kind of punches he threw against Norton and Frazier.

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0Rooster4Life0
07-10-2009, 12:24 AM
He landed a few uppercuts on Ali, I think he landed a really powerful one in one of the rounds, but Ali was much different stylistically than Norton and Frazier were and would have always leaned away from the uppercut anyway, ropes or not. Norton and Frazier were both crouching pressure fighters.

Lets not make this fight out to be some kind of a one-sided beating Ali took until Foreman collapsed from exhaustion. Ali landed every punch on the book and stunned Foreman several times with counter punches. He was up on all scorecards at the time of the stoppage.

Foreman was never allowed to throw the kind of punches he threw against Norton and Frazier.



I never said it was a one sided beating.

But at the same time we can not ignore the facts, Im not saying the Rope-a-Dope is illigal etc, But its Clear that it changed Foreman game plan, Foreman threw More Uppercuts in the first 10 seconds of the frazier fight then he did in Africa. And this is why Ali used the Ropes, and it was genious.


Ali saw how Foreman fought and found a way to beat him, Leaning back on the ropes to take the uppercut out of the fight and at the same time exhausting George, It was a smart tactic. I take nothing away from Ali, None at all, But at the same time we must not pretend the Rope-a-dope did nothing, If it did Nothing Ali wouldnt have used it.

Once again taking Nothing away from Ali.


ROOSTER

TheGreatA
07-10-2009, 12:36 AM
I never said it was a one sided beating.

But at the same time we can not ignore the facts, Im not saying the Rope-a-Dope is illigal etc, But its Clear that it changed Foreman game plan, Foreman threw More Uppercuts in the first 10 seconds of the frazier fight then he did in Africa. And this is why Ali used the Ropes, and it was genious.


Ali saw how Foreman fought and found a way to beat him, Leaning back on the ropes to take the uppercut out of the fight and at the same time exhausting George, It was a smart tactic. I take nothing away from Ali, None at all, But at the same time we must not pretend the Rope-a-dope did nothing, If it did Nothing Ali wouldnt have used it.

Once again taking Nothing away from Ali.


ROOSTER

Sorry I didn't mean to direct that part of the post to you but rather meant it in general. It's a bit of a myth that Foreman was somehow giving Ali a beating.

I don't think the rope-a-dope was the way to take away Foreman's uppercut. Foreman had success landing it from the clinch several times. Peralta and Young took it away by use of smart footwork.

Frazier and Norton were simply very open for the uppercut due to their styles.

LondonRingRules
07-10-2009, 05:18 AM
Lets not make this fight out to be some kind of a one-sided beating Ali took until Foreman collapsed from exhaustion. Ali landed every punch on the book and stunned Foreman several times with counter punches. He was up on all scorecards at the time of the stoppage.

Foreman was never allowed to throw the kind of punches he threw against Norton and Frazier.

** While I agree with the last paragraph above, let's keep in mind that Ali had no choice but to go to the ropes which is why Dundee loosened the ropes. They knew the ring was a slow one, and of course, in between the pummelings, Ali took every opening he had a breath for.

Foreman was exhausted by direct visage and every account of the bout from his efforts. He was unable to do proper sparring the month before the fight which is partially why he started off looking so clumsy. Foreman may have gotten a few sharp buzzes from Ali rights, but the beating Foreman handed out had Ali out on his feet as he as confessed numerous times. It was a world class beating that only a Foreman or Tyson could administer. Proof is Ali was never the same after this bout, barely at clubfighter level against Wepner in his next bout. He never showed any class over subsequent defenses save Coopman and Dunn and looked horrible when he wasn't in a major struggle.

Foreman also ruined the fine form Of Holy who looked crap ever since save the mysterious Tyson match. Doc Feelgood Ferdie never liked Foreman yet was willing to admit Foreman took a lot out of Ali, enough that they steered him away from the rematch.

Ali did land every punch in the book, including a key rabbit punch after George ended up with his neck stretched across the ropes, simultaneously popping his jugular and cerebellum at a most opportune time, setting up the highlight KO that arguably George beat the count on.

The scorecards have been changed in boxrec several times. I've seen them split before. One judge doesn't even give George a single round, bringing up the specious scoring of too many Ali bouts to mention.

Look, technically it's a legit win and Ali's best, but the conditions could never be duplicated and all indications are the team felt they really dodged a bullet with this fight.

Given additionally what we know of George later, he would've have been at his absolute best and most ferocious in the rematch.

mickey malone
07-10-2009, 06:13 AM
I suppose we have to accept that Foreman couldn't beat Ali in a boxing ring.. In that case we all have to accept that little old Henry Cooper did, by way of KO.. As suggested by other posters, Ali did have one of the best cheats of all time in his corner.. The rope tampering allegations is something I definately wouldn't put past Angelo Dundee, & we all know that the ropes played a very big part in Ali's game plan.. Something, no one else had either thought about, or be able to implement as well as Ali/Dundee..
Would Dundee have been able to do this with a cage?
Well not unless he created an obvious disturbance with an angle grinder, while sharding evidence all over the gaff.. So I suppose, there's your answer, George would'a KO'd Ali in a cage....

TheGreatA
07-10-2009, 01:34 PM
I suppose we have to accept that Foreman couldn't beat Ali in a boxing ring.. In that case we all have to accept that little old Henry Cooper did, by way of KO.. As suggested by other posters, Ali did have one of the best cheats of all time in his corner.. The rope tampering allegations is something I definately wouldn't put past Angelo Dundee, & we all know that the ropes played a very big part in Ali's game plan.. Something, no one else had either thought about, or be able to implement as well as Ali/Dundee..
Would Dundee have been able to do this with a cage?
Well not unless he created an obvious disturbance with an angle grinder, while sharding evidence all over the gaff.. So I suppose, there's your answer, George would'a KO'd Ali in a cage....

I believe both have been proven myths by now. Ali didn't tell anyone that he would lay on the ropes against Foreman, he probably didn't even think of doing it himself until after the first round.

"Angelo Dundee works out of the Fifth Street Gym in Miami. He is the trainer the public knows best, mainly because he has had more fighters on television than anyone else, is often hired for instant analysis between rounds and is united visually with Ali in the public mind. When left alone, that is, when he is not working with Ali, Dundee runs a sharp corner, complemented by two seconds who are the best in the business: Luis Sarrea, the wordless Cuban, and Dr. Ferdie Pacheco, for whom boxing is one of many avocations.

The charge that Dundee tampered with the ropes in Zai***65533;re (making them sag, to allow Ali to play them beautifully) is not true, but the trick is not beyond him. He is expert at prefight detail—not only ropes and canvas but publicity and propaganda.

Working in Ali's corner has been exasperating for Angelo, whose only balm is the money and a closeness to an authentic legend. Ali trains Ali, and he sometimes is a ruthless, heartless conditioner. The situation reduces Dundee almost to being a figurehead, a gregarious, eminently quotable press guide, a mediator of camp wrangles, a watcher of the camp's body politic. And few remember that it was Angelo who saved at least two major fights for Ali. But his role with Ali does not diminish him. He is quick of mind. He can follow a fighter's most convoluted thoughts. He knows how to get response. And he has no peer as a cut man—or as a survivor in a tattered way of life."

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1089529/1/index.htm

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3:00

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5:30

"The British boxing newspaper Boxing News conducted an investigation into the 'split glove' incident in 2003. Using the original television and radio broadcasts to determine length of time between rounds 4 and 5 it was discovered that Cassius Clay only gained 5 seconds extra and not the mythical 3-5 minutes. The gloves were never changed. Other sources on the matter confirm this.[4] [5] After this fight a spare pair of gloves were always required at ringside. What is certain however, is that Dundee broke a phial containing an unknown substance and held it under Clay's nose in an effort to revive his man, which was illegal.[6] Clay was obviously impressed by the knockdown and on the 40th anniversary telephoned Cooper to reminisce. Clay who had changed his name to Muhammad Ali in 1964, later said, on British television, that Cooper "had hit [him] so hard that his ancestors in Africa felt it". In 1966 they met a second time at Arsenal Stadium in London to contest the world title. Cooper succumbed again to his weakness, a tendency to cut, and Ali went on to be "The Greatest"."

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TheGreatA
07-10-2009, 01:53 PM
** While I agree with the last paragraph above, let's keep in mind that Ali had no choice but to go to the ropes which is why Dundee loosened the ropes. They knew the ring was a slow one, and of course, in between the pummelings, Ali took every opening he had a breath for.

Foreman was exhausted by direct visage and every account of the bout from his efforts. He was unable to do proper sparring the month before the fight which is partially why he started off looking so clumsy. Foreman may have gotten a few sharp buzzes from Ali rights, but the beating Foreman handed out had Ali out on his feet as he as confessed numerous times. It was a world class beating that only a Foreman or Tyson could administer. Proof is Ali was never the same after this bout, barely at clubfighter level against Wepner in his next bout. He never showed any class over subsequent defenses save Coopman and Dunn and looked horrible when he wasn't in a major struggle.

Foreman also ruined the fine form Of Holy who looked crap ever since save the mysterious Tyson match. Doc Feelgood Ferdie never liked Foreman yet was willing to admit Foreman took a lot out of Ali, enough that they steered him away from the rematch.

Ali did land every punch in the book, including a key rabbit punch after George ended up with his neck stretched across the ropes, simultaneously popping his jugular and cerebellum at a most opportune time, setting up the highlight KO that arguably George beat the count on.

The scorecards have been changed in boxrec several times. I've seen them split before. One judge doesn't even give George a single round, bringing up the specious scoring of too many Ali bouts to mention.

Look, technically it's a legit win and Ali's best, but the conditions could never be duplicated and all indications are the team felt they really dodged a bullet with this fight.

Given additionally what we know of George later, he would've have been at his absolute best and most ferocious in the rematch.

I don't know about Ali being "out on his feet". After the fight he stated that the fight was "easy" and that he was never in any trouble.

I'd say that having a war against Frazier in Manila in which he did take a lot of punishment and was out on his feet several times had a lot more to do with him becoming a shot fighter than the Foreman fight, which to my eyes did look relatively easy considering.

Holyfield had some of his best performances after beating Foreman (in a rather one-sided but highly entertaining fight) so I don't know about that.

I'd say that the two right hands before the so-called rabbit punch actually did the most damage which allowed Ali to land the fight-ending combination:

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Foreman looked like a diminished fighter after the Ali fight. I don't think the Foreman who fought Lyle or Young could do any better against that Ali, since he fell for the same tactics. Lyle and Young both countered his wild punches off the ropes and had success against him.

paul750
07-10-2009, 02:03 PM
It just depends where the punches are landing [obviously]. Chris Byrd did the same sort of thing against Tua, but was nailed against Ike. Very clever boxers with big hearts can pull it off against big punching, but limited fighters. Make no mistake though, even Ali would have been hurt in the right circumstances.

What happens is that most punchers go in trying to take the boxer's head off, and in doing so waste energy, and also waste the opportunity the wear the boxer down. Patience is a very good virtue for a boxer to have. That's why I think Ike could have been a great fighter. In those types of fights the puncher is better off just throwing shots at about half power, and wearing the other guy down until the bomb comes.

Ziggy Stardust
07-10-2009, 02:09 PM
It just depends where the punches are landing [obviously]. Chris Byrd did the same sort of thing against Tua, but was nailed against Ike. Very clever boxers with big hearts can pull it off against big punching, but limited fighters. Make no mistake though, even Ali would have been hurt in the right circumstances.

What happens is that most punchers go in trying to take the boxer's head off, and in doing so waste energy, and also waste the opportunity the wear the boxer down. Patience is a very good virtue for a boxer to have. That's why I think Ike could have been a great fighter. In those types of fights the puncher is better off just throwing shots at about half power, and wearing the other guy down until the bomb comes.

Or taking greater care and placing accurate shots rather than making wild swings. Missing wild punches saps a fighters strength and endurance as much as getting hit does.

Poet

paul750
07-10-2009, 02:25 PM
Or taking greater care and placing accurate shots rather than making wild swings. Missing wild punches saps a fighters strength and endurance as much as getting hit does.

Poet

''Power is a good thing in any sport, but you need to be able to plug it in.'' That's what Larry Merchant said before the Ike vs Byrd fight. Ike had pretty fast hands for a heavyweight, and was accurate as well. Foreman, for all of his power, was just never that fast, and didn't exactly have great technique. He was really just a crude wrecking ball. It's not like he was in bad condition either, as he was pretty lean back in those days. I guess it just wasn't there.

RingSlam
07-10-2009, 02:29 PM
Or taking greater care and placing accurate shots rather than making wild swings. Missing wild punches saps a fighters strength and endurance as much as getting hit does.

Poet

and how would you know? you have never laced a glove on in your life, so you wound't know what goes on in a boxing ring. So dont come on here like you've boxed and telling people what saps energy etc, because you woundt know or never will because you were to scared to get in a ring.

You stick to writing behind a keyboard, and acting like a keyboard warrior. But dont dare act like you've been in a ring, skidmark!

TheGreatA
07-10-2009, 02:33 PM
and how would you know? you have never laced a glove on in your life, so you wound't know what goes on in a boxing ring. So dont come on here like you've boxed and telling people what saps energy etc, because you woundt know or never will because you were to scared to get in a ring.

You stick to writing behind a keyboard, and acting like a keyboard warrior. But dont dare act like you've been in a ring, skidmark!

You're clueless and make a fool of yourself constantly.

RingSlam
07-10-2009, 02:39 PM
You're clueless and make a fool of yourself constantly.

This coming from a poster who sits behind a pc all day and is a keyboard warrior. Havent you got anything better do with your life, instead of talking about boxing wound't you go down a gym and actually do it.

have you ever boxed? oh yeah you never answer that question do you? wonder why??? :lol1:

Ziggy Stardust
07-10-2009, 02:45 PM
and how would you know? you have never laced a glove on in your life, so you wound't know what goes on in a boxing ring. So dont come on here like you've boxed and telling people what saps energy etc, because you woundt know or never will because you were to scared to get in a ring.

You stick to writing behind a keyboard, and acting like a keyboard warrior. But dont dare act like you've been in a ring, skidmark!

News flash: The vast majority of posters on Boxing Scene are not themselves boxers. This a site for boxing FANS as opposed to site narrowly taylored for BOXERS. You would well to remember that it is the hardcore boxing FAN that keeps boxing alive and pays the freight. Without them tuning in and buying PPVs ect. boxing would dissappear proffesionally as it would lose all economic viabilty. BTW, you're a tool.

Poet

RingSlam
07-10-2009, 02:49 PM
News flash: The vast majority of posters on Boxing Scene are not themselves boxers. This a site for boxing FANS as opposed to site narrowly taylored for BOXERS. You would well to remember that it is the hardcore boxing FAN that keeps boxing alive and pays the freight. Without them tuning in and buying PPVs ect. boxing would dissappear proffesionally as it would lose all economic viabilty. BTW, you're a tool.

Poet

i never said you coundt watch it. i said dont comment on things that you would only know if you have been in a ring and fought something which you have never done. you just be a fan, but dont talk like you have actually boxed, because you have never laced up a glove in your life and never will.

you just watch it on a armchair, and make sure you wear a nappy incase you **** your pants watching it from a distance.

and give them teeth a brush, they look like they have never saw a toothbrush. have they?

Ziggy Stardust
07-10-2009, 02:56 PM
i never said you coundt watch it. i said dont comment on things that you would only know if you have been in a ring and fought something which you have never done. you just be a fan, but dont talk like you have actually boxed, because you have never laced up a glove in your life and never will.

you just watch it on a armchair, and make sure you wear a nappy incase you **** your pants watching it from a distance.

and give them teeth a brush, they look like they have never saw a toothbrush. have they?

There's a reason why networks hire non-fighters to do most of their boxing commentary: Most dumb jocks lack the intellect to say anything intelligent on TV let alone actually analyze what's going on in the ring. Now make like George Foreman, Roy Jones, and Lennox Lewis and make the occasional dumb observation and leave the thinking to those who have the brain power to handle it.

PS. Your new alt is SO obvious Mr. "Maniaboxing".

Poet

RingSlam
07-10-2009, 03:00 PM
There's a reason why networks hire non-fighters to do most of their boxing commentary: Most dumb jocks lack the intellect to say anything intelligent on TV let alone actually analyze what's going on in the ring. Now make like George Foreman, Roy Jones, and Lennox Lewis and make the occasional dumb observation and leave the thinking to those who have the brain power to handle it.

PS. Your new alt is SO obvious Mr. "Maniaboxing".

Poet

as roy jones once said to larry merchant you woundt know larry you havent been in a ring. same with you, how can you comment on anything when you never had the heart to lace the up.

instead of being a keyboard warrior go and give them teeth a brush, and you poetry is turd, it's about as good as your hair! lol

TheGreatA
07-10-2009, 03:05 PM
This coming from a poster who sits behind a pc all day and is a keyboard warrior. Havent you got anything better do with your life, instead of talking about boxing wound't you go down a gym and actually do it.

have you ever boxed? oh yeah you never answer that question do you? wonder why??? :lol1:

I'm afraid you're the definition of a "keyboard warrior". You'd never say this to my face, heck, you don't even dare to use your real account but rather an alt to say it on the internet.

How pathetic is that?

Ziggy Stardust
07-10-2009, 03:07 PM
as roy jones once said to larry merchant you woundt know larry you havent been in a ring. same with you, how can you comment on anything when you never had the heart to lace the up.

instead of being a keyboard warrior go and give them teeth a brush, and you poetry is turd, it's about as good as your hair! lol

How would know? You've never had an intelligent thought in your life. It certainly doesn't take much intellect to make a dozen alts and hide under them like a little ***** while you act like a typical internet troll. As for RJJ, there's a reason why HBO goes through color commentators fast than Butterbean goes through toilet paper after taking Ex-Lax: They make only two types of comments 1) Completely idiotic ones; or 2) Observations so blatantly obvious that your typical 5 year old watching can see it.

Poet

RingSlam
07-10-2009, 03:07 PM
I'm afraid you're the definition of a "keyboard warrior". You'd never say this to my face, heck, you don't even dare to use your real account but rather an alt to say it on the internet.

How pathetic is that?

I would say it to your face belive me. ANSWER MY QUESTION. HAVE YOU EVER BOXED?

TheGreatA
07-10-2009, 03:23 PM
I would say it to your face belive me. ANSWER MY QUESTION. HAVE YOU EVER BOXED?

Lets not pretend that you would say it to my face, since you won't even do it on the internet with your main account. Do that and maybe I'll believe you.

I won't answer the question because it very clearly frustrates and annoys you that I haven't so far. Keep speculating about it.

mickey malone
07-10-2009, 03:47 PM
I believe both have been proven myths by now. Ali didn't tell anyone that he would lay on the ropes against Foreman, he probably didn't even think of doing it himself until after the first round.

"Angelo Dundee works out of the Fifth Street Gym in Miami. He is the trainer the public knows best, mainly because he has had more fighters on television than anyone else, is often hired for instant analysis between rounds and is united visually with Ali in the public mind. When left alone, that is, when he is not working with Ali, Dundee runs a sharp corner, complemented by two seconds who are the best in the business: Luis Sarrea, the wordless Cuban, and Dr. Ferdie Pacheco, for whom boxing is one of many avocations.

The charge that Dundee tampered with the ropes in Zai***65533;re (making them sag, to allow Ali to play them beautifully) is not true, but the trick is not beyond him. He is expert at prefight detail—not only ropes and canvas but publicity and propaganda.

Working in Ali's corner has been exasperating for Angelo, whose only balm is the money and a closeness to an authentic legend. Ali trains Ali, and he sometimes is a ruthless, heartless conditioner. The situation reduces Dundee almost to being a figurehead, a gregarious, eminently quotable press guide, a mediator of camp wrangles, a watcher of the camp's body politic. And few remember that it was Angelo who saved at least two major fights for Ali. But his role with Ali does not diminish him. He is quick of mind. He can follow a fighter's most convoluted thoughts. He knows how to get response. And he has no peer as a cut man—or as a survivor in a tattered way of life."

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1089529/1/index.htm

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3:00

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5:30

"The British boxing newspaper Boxing News conducted an investigation into the 'split glove' incident in 2003. Using the original television and radio broadcasts to determine length of time between rounds 4 and 5 it was discovered that Cassius Clay only gained 5 seconds extra and not the mythical 3-5 minutes. The gloves were never changed. Other sources on the matter confirm this.[4] [5] After this fight a spare pair of gloves were always required at ringside. What is certain however, is that Dundee broke a phial containing an unknown substance and held it under Clay's nose in an effort to revive his man, which was illegal.[6] Clay was obviously impressed by the knockdown and on the 40th anniversary telephoned Cooper to reminisce. Clay who had changed his name to Muhammad Ali in 1964, later said, on British television, that Cooper "had hit [him] so hard that his ancestors in Africa felt it". In 1966 they met a second time at Arsenal Stadium in London to contest the world title. Cooper succumbed again to his weakness, a tendency to cut, and Ali went on to be "The Greatest"."

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Thankyou.. One of the best informative posts I've read in a long time! I appreciate it when someone takes the extra time to explain things in precise detail.. I studied the video & 5 seconds was spot on to.. However... That video has been tampered with.. You can actually see where it's been cut, immediately after the knock down.. I'm also confused with: The gloves were NEVER changed, but a spare pair of gloves were ALWAYS required at ringside AFTER this fight & after BLATANTLY administering an illegal substance, it makes you smell a rat doesn't it?
I was too young to watch the fight then, but my Father wasn't, and he was the last person to even discuss myths.. He's always said, that it was minutes as opposed to seconds & so has Cooper, Harry Carpenter & at least 50% of every boxing historian that ever lived.. Just as a quick example, I just picked up History Of The Fight Game by Peter Brooke-Hall, where it quotes: "Angelo Dundee indulged in some time wasting tactics during the break." I'm sorry, but in my opinion, Ali only won the 2nd fight fair & square.. It's all clever stuff when you consider the void between slyness & humility..

TheGreatA
07-10-2009, 04:00 PM
Thankyou.. One of the best informative posts I've read in a long time! I appreciate it when someone takes the extra time to explain things in precise detail.. I studied the video & 5 seconds was spot on to.. However... That video has been tampered with.. You can actually see where it's been cut, immediately after the knock down.. I'm also confused with: The gloves were NEVER changed, but a spare pair of gloves were ALWAYS required at ringside AFTER this fight & after BLATANTLY administering an illegal substance, it makes you smell a rat doesn't it?
I was too young to watch the fight then, but my Father wasn't, and he was the last person to even discuss myths.. He's always said, that it was minutes as opposed to seconds & so has Cooper, Harry Carpenter & at least 50% of every boxing historian that ever lived.. Just as a quick example, I just picked up History Of The Fight Game by Peter Brooke-Hall, where it quotes: "Angelo Dundee indulged in some time wasting tactics during the break." I'm sorry, but in my opinion, Ali only won the 2nd fight fair & square.. It's all clever stuff when you consider the void between slyness & humility..


I've heard from ringside viewers that there was no delay.

GJC
07-10-2009, 04:41 PM
and how would you know? you have never laced a glove on in your life, so you wound't know what goes on in a boxing ring. So dont come on here like you've boxed and telling people what saps energy etc,

Do you need to have boxed to be able to give an opinion on boxing? I have boxed but whilst it does give you another perspective I wouldn't have said it gave me any more insight than watching an awful lot of fights. I didn't really get the chance to analyse the fights I was in as I was too busy either blocking or trying to hit the other guy.
You will probably find that the greater the boxer the less insight they could give as they don't have to think about it they just do it so to speak.

Bit like saying you need to be a cat or a dog to be a vegetarian, no?

mickey malone
07-10-2009, 04:48 PM
I've heard from ringside viewers that there was no delay.
All controversial athletes tend to have the best spin doctors behind them.. Even 40 odd years later, there is no general consensus, & many outcomes are still shrouded in doubt.. Ali of all people, wasn't exempt from this quandary.. So as 2 guys that wern't there, we have to stand & be counted.. What we hear is not what we experience.. What we experience, we can believe & we can understand.. Sports history, in some cases is an undisclosed subject, hence the never ending controversy....
Even though I can't commit myself, I still admire the sensibility of your argument.. Regards MM

GJC
07-10-2009, 04:50 PM
I've heard from ringside viewers that there was no delay.
I actually missed out on seeing the 1st Clay v Cooper fight, should have gone, long story.
Saw the second one. Few of my friends went, as I recall certainly wasn't 3-5 minutes, that is an urban myth, but wasn't 5 seconds either. I have 30 seconds in my aging mind. Think the 2 biggest factors were that the ropes cushioned Clay/Ali's fall and that it was right on the bell.
Cooper definately caught him and had it have been in the middle of the ring with Ali hitting the canvas with a bump or had Cooper had another minute then who knows?
What we now know and we didn't then was Ali's phenominal chin.
Ah well Enry has probably made more money out of the what might have been than he would of otherwise.

JAB5239
07-10-2009, 04:54 PM
and how would you know? you have never laced a glove on in your life, so you wound't know what goes on in a boxing ring. So dont come on here like you've boxed and telling people what saps energy etc, because you woundt know or never will because you were to scared to get in a ring.

You stick to writing behind a keyboard, and acting like a keyboard warrior. But dont dare act like you've been in a ring, skidmark!

I have been in the ring, and missing wild punches saps a fighters energy.

GJC
07-10-2009, 05:00 PM
I have been in the ring, and missing wild punches saps a fighters energy.
I used to find keep climbing off the canvas draining too :)

JAB5239
07-10-2009, 05:22 PM
I used to find keep climbing off the canvas draining too :)

Lol!! Yeah, counting the lights on the ceiling will wear you out everytime.:scared:

GJC
07-10-2009, 05:42 PM
Lol!! Yeah, counting the lights on the ceiling will wear you out everytime.:scared:
Used to nullify that by pitching forward face down :)

mickey malone
07-10-2009, 06:16 PM
Lol!! Yeah, counting the lights on the ceiling will wear you out everytime.:scared:
While nursing the preverbial cauliflour arse..