Many people have different opinions, yet this should be a very easy decision in my opinion.

Royce Gracie, was great, he was unbeatable until his system was revealed, and he was very reliant on people not knowing how to counter him on the ground, he showed us a new revolution in fighting, and only now that people are finally knowledgable that being a hard hitter, and stand up fighting alone doesnt do it, the sport has been revolutionised.

Royce Gracie did much however does not compare to his brother Rickson... over 500 Fights with 0 defeats. He epitimises the art of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, yet has been adept on his feet also, throwing some hard blows, taking down top fighters with just blows when he is primarily a grappler. He was the first absolutely complete fighter, and remained to do this until his "retirement", whether we see him fight again, and whether he maintains his unbeaten record if he does so, is irrelevant.

The only fighter who may compare is Bruce Lee.. creating the system of Jeet Kun Do, goiing away from tradition, and upholding what works. Bruce Lee studied many arts, including ground arts, such a jiu-jitsu, yet records have it that he was sometimes far 2 small... and due to the fact that his system is also primarily based on hard hitting blows, some of the people he challanged actually beat him.

What do u guys think?

Just Something to think about
Yours Truly
Tino

Id rather die on my two feet... Than Live on my knees...

I think .... I read your sig somewhere before. Maybe if I can remember I'll also know who you really are.

You do post on another forum, don't you?

remember the first 'M' in mma.


no way in hell are rickson & royce anywhere near the greatest mma artists. when you're born in a family that lives & breaths BJJ and the rest of the world hasn't seen BJJ then it's not too hard to gain wins.......which is a good reason why 'win track' doesn't always mean the fighter's automatically epic.


i'd probably give the 'greatest' title to Sak. runner's up can be couture, fedor, shamrock brothers, and bas.

Bruce Lee is by far in my book, don't get me wrong he wasn't unbeatable but he was always changing, not only did he create a new martial art but he constantly cahnged it he realized tyhat people could figure things out but unlike Gracie he changed them. Even after he died people like paul diviniac(excuse spelling) are still dont what they know he would do. Jeet Kune Do isnt just one art it trually is a MIXED martial art in itself it takes the best from everything and adds its own flavor, not only was this man a great fighter who trained every second, but also a genius

Sakuraba IMO is probabl the best all around fighter of all time.

I think one of the first MIXED Martial Artist in the game was Pat Miletich. Boxing, Thai BJJ and wrestling.

Marco Ruas was one of the first "new age" fighters, he had good stand up and ground skills. Kazushi Sakuraba was probably the best like Curly said.
Royce Gracie was trying to showcase his JJ more than anything, he was never a complete MMA fighter. He was the one that showed how necessary was it to have ground skills.

Couture. I find his fighting style utterly repulsive, but his accomplishments speak for themselves.

Couture. I find his fighting style utterly repulsive, but his accomplishments speak for themselves.

Get his training tapes if you get a chance. I picked up so much from them. I'll never use a thai clinch again.

Get his training tapes if you get a chance. I picked up so much from them. I'll never use a thai clinch again.In terms of Americans who cross trained; I'd put Matt Hume up there with the early competitors. Why'd he stop competing so early in his career?

Probably his big ass nose was a liability. He did get it broken more than once I think.

Sakuraba.

Pat Miletich or Vanderlei Silva.

Damn that's a hard question. I think one thing that needs to weigh in is how long they've been at it and how well they've withstood the test of time.

That puts the Gracies out.

In more recent years, you've had lots of guys rise to the top through sheer accomplishment, but I'd still rather wait to call out "the best". There have been many, many notable and very deserving people nominated in this thread, don't get me wrong, but I think there needs to be more time go by.

How Wrong many of you are...
I can not argue or change the will of others, but only try and educate and give credit where is due...

1) To Purity: How can u individualistically look at the various letters of MMA.. when in essence the meaning of the word is the three letters together.. Mixed.. does not necessarily mean, do a bit of all, but rather that all is allowed... and that what must be done is what works. The Gracies have found a weakness on the ground never before properly exposed. and talking on Mixed again, Rickson Gracie who i do believe is the most complete of the Gracies.. has good mixed MMA combat skills... As far as Royce goes he was never built genetically to be a hard hitter, so he has identified his strength and stuck strictly to it... He is a great martial Artist, but sometimes in MMA u need more than wisdom to win a fight. Just because they are Gracies they are not nessecarily great athletes... There is only one muhhamed Ali..... yet through their training, have been able to take down some of the greatest martial artists the world has known. That tells much of thier accomplishments. However Rickson also had that athleticism and killer instinct the others may have lacked.

2) To morparjoe: Bruce Lee did great works, but you know little of the Gracies and what they believe... and are a little miseducated on how Bruce Lee came about Jeet kun Do.
Helio like Bruce Lee is a believer in walking away from traditional arts which have evolved through rules and hence forth to no longer be a fighting art which is effective but a game, where the winner is he who best manipulates the rules. Helio perfected the art of Jui-jitsu leaving only what works establishing a coherent system that works in real life situations. In the same way Bruce Lee who was mentored in the the art of Shaolin Kung fu his whole life, changed tradition to effectiveness. Bruce and Helio are similar... yet Bruce made it onto the Silver Screen at a time of low effects and made explosive martial art movies showing us his great skill (now even Keanu Reaves is a martial arts expert... i mean look at the matrix.... besides who would like to see rickson rolling on the ground trying to grapple people to death). Bruce owes much of his fame to the silver screen, which made him a hero and a legend. Think muhammed Ali... most of the population will believe he is the greatest fighter of all time, but he was the greatest Boxer, and i doubt he would have lasted very long in the MMA ring without proper martial training. Mike Tyson... hard hitter.. hed knock out any mma fighter with a single punch... so who would come close to him? That is what the public believe.. due to FAME.... and not EXAMPLE.

3) Curly Howard and other Sakubara fans: Sakubara is a great fighter, and his art perfectly complements how to counter BJJ... BJJ has been exposed and has fought Royce out of his prime. yet Sakunara gets knocked sennceless by Wandelrai silva...? why....? because he cant stop a senseless hard hitter as Royce can... Sakuraba will only perform against certain fighters.. and Rickson... back in his day would have aniihilated him, just through the stand up fight... gotten the better mount and finished... At least thats what i believe.

4) S.Stewart... im sorry but ur thread made no sence to me... More time? how... Royce can into the UFC and won 3 of them.. would have won 4 if he hadnt gone out with injury. Rickson is over 500-0 still to this day undefeated, you want to match him up 2 2days fighters? the man is over 40 years old. His time has past, yet his time was long... u talk of time as if a man can fight and win for 50-60 years... maybe a century should pass of him being undefeated... We talk of a time of Gracie dominance, their time is just ending. Would Pele have been the greatest soccer player in todays defencive age? maybe not... Would Rocky Marciano have a chance against Klitchko with todays technology and higher athletic being... i dono... maybe... but thats arguable... because in their Prime... the Graices were the best. They revolutionanised the MMA. and you compare the old with the new.... when the in the old... they were undoubtedly the best. Maybe u r right, we should wait a centuary, when the Rickson and Royce do pass... and maybe then they will in the MMA world finally have the respect they deserve.

My thoughts...

Thank you
Yours Sincerely
Tino

Id rather die on my feet... Than Live on my knees...

Of all time? Rickson. Of the beginning of the UFC? Royce. In the current mma? hard to say since now they have weight classes. Randy, wanderlei, bj and fedor come to mind.

How Wrong many of you are...
I can not argue or change the will of others, but only try and educate and give credit where is due...

1) To Purity: How can u individualistically look at the various letters of MMA.. when in essence the meaning of the word is the three letters together.. Mixed.. does not necessarily mean, do a bit of all, but rather that all is allowed... and that what must be done is what works. The Gracies have found a weakness on the ground never before properly exposed. and talking on Mixed again, Rickson Gracie who i do believe is the most complete of the Gracies.. has good mixed MMA combat skills... As far as Royce goes he was never built genetically to be a hard hitter, so he has identified his strength and stuck strictly to it... He is a great martial Artist, but sometimes in MMA u need more than wisdom to win a fight. Just because they are Gracies they are not nessecarily great athletes... There is only one muhhamed Ali..... yet through their training, have been able to take down some of the greatest martial artists the world has known. That tells much of thier accomplishments. However Rickson also had that athleticism and killer instinct the others may have lacked.


"mixed" is what i was referring to. meaning that the gracies have never been mixed fighters. they're ground fighters with very little standup skill. and even though rickson tended to strike more often than the others, he still rarely stood up with his opponents and struck only in the GNP.

and to say that the GRACIES found a weakness on the ground is a lil outta line too. jiu jitsu's been around for 1,000s of years. the gracies exposed & capitalized on it no different than elvis did to the blues.

and when comparing sak to royce i wouldn't recommend citing sak's loss to silva. the only reason silva hasn't torn apart royce ever is because
1. royce wouldn't have the balls to fight him and
2. even if he did, he DEFINETELY wouldn't have the balls to stand up with him.

it took only a few years for the world to catch up to and beat the gracies in their own game. and instead of getting more competitive in trying to regain their short monopoly in ultimate fighting, they spent their efforts in selling out the gracie name by overcharging students in their academies.

i give them props for introducing the mainstream to jiu jitsu. mad respect for that but that's it. they're boring and arrogent fighters IMO. when they were on top they did nothing but brag, and ever since losing their hold they do nothing but *****.

and when comparing sak to royce i wouldn't recommend citing sak's loss to silva. the only reason silva hasn't torn apart royce ever is because
1. royce wouldn't have the balls to fight him and
2. even if he did, he DEFINETELY wouldn't have the balls to stand up with him.........

i give them props for introducing the mainstream to jiu jitsu. mad respect for that but that's it. they're boring and arrogent fighters IMO. when they were on top they did nothing but brag, and ever since losing their hold they do nothing but *****.

Firstly i believe Royce would have a good chance against Silva even today, to be honest i dont think Silva could take Royce because it is impossible for someone trained primarily in strikes to keep from the mat... and even more so, get up once put down, on the Ground Silva has no chance, and as far as standing up with him, my god... Royce would have to be stupid, why would he want to do that? Besides the no. one representative of the Gracies is Rickson, who probably would give him a go at stand up and put him down and win fight as soon as he got the chance. Also to note... other than Rickson beaing undefeated, Royce has never officially been beaten through so called "street rules". Gracie has never tapped out... and never been knocked out, against sakubara it was a corner stoppage, and saku just got a few more hits in because of Royce's inability to bring and keep sakubara on the mat... a luxury he wouldnt have against Rickson.

And i dont believe they sit and *****... they have always believed that rules hamper the decision of a real time fight, when fighters fight for points, and not to finish, get submission or TKO, its not real time martial arts, thats their only point. And i do believe their bragging rights were well deserved, i mean Mohhamed Ali... Prince Naseem... Maradona... Pele... were all bragers... yet none were as humble before and after a fight as the Gracies...

Royce Gracie was choked unconscious by Wallid "Pretty boy" Ismail in a BJJ match.

Another thing: Bringing up Naseem Hamed along with names like Maradona, Pele or Ali is pushing it... Hamed wasn't even the best in his time.

And Pele, was the most humble person I have ever met. I mean Pele by the greatest soccer player that ever lived, not Jose Landi.

Rahmed was good... but thats another issue altogether.. and as far as Pele goes... he is humble and a good person, even tho ive never met him, but the way he toyed and beat his opponents if u watch his games does show alot of Arogance, as the best ussualy do have... He knew he was the best and he showed it.
But that is gettin a little off topic

Wait, wait, in your rabid defense of the Gracies, you're going to tell me that a sport that's little over a decade old is ready to have a moniker like "best ever" thrown around?


Suuuuuure.

Saying that Rickson is the best MMA artist of all time is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. Rickson's only decent opponent his entire ten fight career was against Funaki.......a guy who was never in anyone's top 20 rankings. He won two eight man tournaments against fighters who are now washing my car and serving me french fries. I mean, Bud Smith's MMA accomplishments are pretty incredible but he too was in no one's top 20 list.....his mullet is top rate though.

Oh, yeah, then there's that Takada guy he fought not once but twice to headline two different Pride shows. I can understand fighting him the first time but why did he do it again? Why not fight against a different Japanese fighter? So, Rickson once again submits Takada using the same thing he beat him with the first time. Man, he really showed Takada who's boss this time around.

Then came the downfall of the Gracie's and the rise of Sakuraba. One by one each Gracie fighter lost to Sakuraba. These weren't just losses though.....these were beatings that resulted in dislocations, fractures, spankings and undressings. All the while Rickson sits by and watches his family get dominated in every possible way and he does nothing. "I only fight for 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 dollars." **** you and your millions you want....this is about family and pride and keeping a little self respect. I guess these things don't mean that much to him when it comes to fighting. This fight will never happen cause now Rickson is to old.......great job, bud......it could have been the most hyped up fight ever......now it's only a "what if"

Royce is a 10x's more accomplished MMA fighter than Rickson ever was. Royce's second fight against Yoshida was great. He really dominated Yoshida the entire fight. It wasn't even close at the end. But, even with this performance, to say you think Royce would have a good chance against Wanderlei is absurd.

People who are stuck in this Rickson mentality need to stay off MMA forums.....they embarrass the hell out of themselves by showing their stupidy and ignorance to the sport of MMA.

Saying that Rickson is the best MMA artist of all time is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. Rickson's only decent opponent his entire ten fight career was against Funaki.......a guy who was never in anyone's top 20 rankings. He won two eight man tournaments against fighters who are now washing my car and serving me french fries. I mean, Bud Smith's MMA accomplishments are pretty incredible but he too was in no one's top 20 list.....his mullet is top rate though.

Oh, yeah, then there's that Takada guy he fought not once but twice to headline two different Pride shows. I can understand fighting him the first time but why did he do it again? Why not fight against a different Japanese fighter? So, Rickson once again submits Takada using the same thing he beat him with the first time. Man, he really showed Takada who's boss this time around.

Then came the downfall of the Gracie's and the rise of Sakuraba. One by one each Gracie fighter lost to Sakuraba. These weren't just losses though.....these were beatings that resulted in dislocations, fractures, spankings and undressings. All the while Rickson sits by and watches his family get dominated in every possible way and he does nothing. "I only fight for 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 dollars." **** you and your millions you want....this is about family and pride and keeping a little self respect. I guess these things don't mean that much to him when it comes to fighting. This fight will never happen cause now Rickson is to old.......great job, bud......it could have been the most hyped up fight ever......now it's only a "what if"

Royce is a 10x's more accomplished MMA fighter than Rickson ever was. Royce's second fight against Yoshida was great. He really dominated Yoshida the entire fight. It wasn't even close at the end. But, even with this performance, to say you think Royce would have a good chance against Wanderlei is absurd.

People who are stuck in this Rickson mentality need to stay off MMA forums.....they embarrass the hell out of themselves by showing their stupidy and ignorance to the sport of MMA.


Yeah that about covers it.

Saying that Rickson is the best MMA artist of all time is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read. Rickson's only decent opponent his entire ten fight career was against Funaki.......a guy who was never in anyone's top 20 rankings. He won two eight man tournaments against fighters who are now washing my car and serving me french fries. I mean, Bud Smith's MMA accomplishments are pretty incredible but he too was in no one's top 20 list.....his mullet is top rate though.

Oh, yeah, then there's that Takada guy he fought not once but twice to headline two different Pride shows. I can understand fighting him the first time but why did he do it again? Why not fight against a different Japanese fighter? So, Rickson once again submits Takada using the same thing he beat him with the first time. Man, he really showed Takada who's boss this time around.

Then came the downfall of the Gracie's and the rise of Sakuraba. One by one each Gracie fighter lost to Sakuraba. These weren't just losses though.....these were beatings that resulted in dislocations, fractures, spankings and undressings. All the while Rickson sits by and watches his family get dominated in every possible way and he does nothing. "I only fight for 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 dollars." **** you and your millions you want....this is about family and pride and keeping a little self respect. I guess these things don't mean that much to him when it comes to fighting. This fight will never happen cause now Rickson is to old.......great job, bud......it could have been the most hyped up fight ever......now it's only a "what if"

Royce is a 10x's more accomplished MMA fighter than Rickson ever was. Royce's second fight against Yoshida was great. He really dominated Yoshida the entire fight. It wasn't even close at the end. But, even with this performance, to say you think Royce would have a good chance against Wanderlei is absurd.

People who are stuck in this Rickson mentality need to stay off MMA forums.....they embarrass the hell out of themselves by showing their stupidy and ignorance to the sport of MMA.

Dear Rodhen

Let me start off by saying this forum is not a ground for spiteful and malicious competition, it is a forum to express our views on a sport that unlike many of you think is not of the last decade, but of centuries. I personally do not appreciate your attacking words and I can confidently I can prove you too be wrong on every single one of the points you have stated.

1) "10 Fight career" - By saying this you know nothing, of Rickson career as an MMA fighter. I could send you a video where Rickson is declared the undisputed freestyle champion with over 398 fights undefeated, and this is long before his retirement, Rickson has over 500 undefeated fights. Rickson has fought longer than the founding of both UFC and Pride FC tournaments. You call this a new sport? How wrong you are. Rickson was the best then, and retired the best, beating the best, in-form opposition at the time. The sport has evolved since Ricksons time, yet he remained undefeated. He no longer needs to prove anything to the world. He has already done so, and there will obviously be new champions of our time, but i doubt that they will achive anything so close as Ricksons acomplishments in MMA. Most MMA fighters dont even participate in so many fights, let alone remain undefeated. Dont assume, what you dont know. Dont call me ignorant, when you honestly believe, Rickson was simply a 10 fight wonder, against nobody's... I dont see 2 many people being offered 20,000,000 million yen to fight in MMA.

2) "A personal comment too you"- Do not tell people to stay off MMA forums, this is a discussion, and I honour others views, yet not when they have no education about the topic at hand. You have proved that you know nothing of Rickson and his accomplishments so you are in no position to judge him, or to judge my knowledge of him, and the MMA competitions of the past and present. Educate yourself on this topic, and please do come back, and give a valid point.

"they embarrass the hell out of themselves by showing their stupidy and ignorance to the sport of MMA." This the only valid point u stated and it is only applicable to yourself.

Thank you
Yours Sincerely
Tino

Id Rather Die on my two feet...
Than Live on my knees...

http://www.bjj.org/images/Rickson/rickson-beach.gif

I could send you a video where Rickson is declared the undisputed freestyle champion with over 398 fights undefeated, and this is long before his retirement, Rickson has over 500 undefeated fights. oh gawd please don't say Choke.

Rickson has fought longer than the founding of both UFC and Pride FC tournaments. You call this a new sport? How wrong you are. Rickson was the best then, and retired the best, beating the best, in-form opposition at the time.
mma is a new sport. fighting isn't new but mma is. do you know the difference?


The sport has evolved since Ricksons time, yet he remained undefeated.
because he stopped fighting once it started evolving.

He no longer needs to prove anything to the world. He has already done so, and there will obviously be new champions of our time, but i doubt that they will achive anything so close as Ricksons acomplishments in MMA.
how hard it must be to use bjj against opponents who never knew it's style. for respect to mma, he does have something to prove. for his own personal pride, he retired as soon as everyone else learned bjj.

Most MMA fighters dont even participate in so many fights, let alone remain undefeated.
why do you assume the # of fights means anything? look at who fought him. i could win 1,000 fights in a row if i brought a machine gun into the ring.

Dont assume, what you dont know. Dont call me ignorant, when you honestly believe, Rickson was simply a 10 fight wonder, against nobody's... I dont see 2 many people being offered 20,000,000 million yen to fight in MMA.

ok at this point i'm convinced that you're another poster trying to screw around.

Am I on Sherdog?

**Waiting for Tanner**

oh gawd please don't say Choke.

mma is a new sport. fighting isn't new but mma is. do you know the difference?

It is a highlights video, compiled by Pal. T. Johnsen... for globalmma.net... Not choke...
MMA, meaning Mixed Martial arts, meaning freestyle fighting... umm any human being being able to think, even with the slitest logic can put the two together. Pride.. is new.. UFC is new... MMA... that is not new...


because he stopped fighting once it started evolving.


No, the fighters he fought at the onset were rated very highly, and yes he later stopped, but he's time had passed. He cant live forever.


how hard it must be to use bjj against opponents who never knew it's style. for respect to mma, he does have something to prove. for his own personal pride, he retired as soon as everyone else learned bjj.


He beat opponents with a style his family created, if they did not know it, it takes nothing from his achivements. Not all fighters are knowledgeable in Muay Thai.. or Kung Fu, its just the best that succeeds... even sakubara's pro Japanese wrestling style, is not that knowledgable to the gracies, while through the Gracies success BJJ has become well known to all, due to its effectiveness, hence finally the general population being able to counter many of the Gracies. Unlike some, the Gracies did not hide their lethal fighting style from the rest of the world.


why do you assume the # of fights means anything? look at who fought him. i could win 1,000 fights in a row if i brought a machine gun into the ring.


True, but he didnt bring a machine gun into the ring. So assuming neither could you, i dont believe you would win a single one of his fights. He went around challenging the best masters from all martail arts disciplin's... For years he challenged all the best proclaimed fighters of the time. Including Iron Mike Tyson, whom it is evident today wouldnt have a very good time in the MMA arena.


ok at this point i'm convinced that you're another poster trying to screw around.

At this point... I am convinced that you are unbelievably naive, and unable to comprehend simple coherent facts, through undeniable evidence. How you are a moderator of such a huge mma forum... is evidently due to the simple fact, that u probably put it up, because as far as MMA goes, you dont know very much.
All in all im just trying to show how Rickson is definately a competitor for best MMA artist of all time... Not that all other fighters are insignificant..


Once again...
Thank You...
Yours Sincerely
Tino

"Id rather die on my own twee feet...
Than Live on my knees"...

In reply to what you said I have only a few comments. Saying Bruce Lee was only considered teh ebst fighter because he made movies is completely false. So did Jackie Chan and Reeves like you said but have you ever once thought that either of them or any other Movie Martial Artist could beat Bruce Lee. Honestly he didn't use special effects to his advantage they slowed him down so you could see his punches better. So if you think hes good in the movies then you'd think he was even better outside them. Given, everyone has their own opinion on the best martial artist and no offense is meant to you bye this, I believe you are a little mixed up on facts.

Dear Readers

Tino is making a simple undeniable statement. And dear sir who used to the metaphor of Rickson and the machine, you are trully as pathetically uneducated as they come when it comes to the knowledge of MMA and no rules fighting.

Rickson Gracie beat the aboslute best of his time, and yes MMA did evolve, a fighter such a Rickson would has evolved with the sport. You cannot deny he would not have, because he proved he was the best of the fighters then, and as the fighting evolves so does a champion. A champion the best way to describe Rickson, and Champions do not lose. For the reason they progress.

Get real, his style was so proficient and he was such an educated fighter that his stand alone BJJ defeated plenty of the BEST and MOST ACCOMPLISHED MM fighters of his time. And this is a known fact. Will u people climb out of the ignorant shell that fighting is all about beating the opponent senseless cos u believe it is "cool" and it nice too make him bleed. Fighting is a technique, and yes beating someone is a techinque of a fighting style, but not half as technical or effective as the BJJ shown by Rickson.
:damnit1:

Earnestly
Lukas

Whatever you guys. Put Rickson in the ring with the likes of Silva and Randy and he will owned. Imagine what Fedor would od to him. Unfortunatly we don't have a "Rickson is God" forum here to send some of this bull**** to.

As was previously stated, research your facts before you throw comments.
Rickson is the best fighter of all time and i can say that with confidence.

Silva would get his little ****** ass slapped all over the ring, all people who know MMA from before this time and of Rickson's time will KNOW this. UFC and Pride FC are kids in the world of true MMA and so are you.

Playa you should no place in this discussion, u present a statement without fact. The argument doesnt need everyone's two cents because they watch one or two fights and see Silva smash some silly bastard up, and think "OMG HE IS OWNAGE AND THE BEST EVER."

I suggest you dl Rickson Videos predating UFC and Pride FC. Japan Underground, Vale Tudo or prehaps K1. Do not throw accusations as you odn not know his history, or it owuld be fact that you would agree.

This is not a complicated matter, all the UFC fighters would probaly concur that Rickson was the best ever. His track record and show of exception skill and fighting stradegy is an example of his superiority in the ring. No one may compare, all those TRUE mma followers and those who know their history will agree with me, i know this for sure.

Genuinely
Lukas

"Not Until Death"

It is a highlights video, compiled by Pal. T. Johnsen... for globalmma.net... Not choke...
so you watch a highlight vid and now are an expert in mma. this just keeps getting better.

MMA, meaning Mixed Martial arts, meaning freestyle fighting... umm any human being being able to think, even with the slitest logic can put the two together. Pride.. is new.. UFC is new... MMA... that is not new... in competitions it is. prior to the last 10 years, organized fighting competitions involved pairing individual styles together. the gracies proved that the style of BJJ obviously monopolizes over the everything else when 1 style is paired against the other. my point was that had rickson fought in mma when everybody trained the way that mma is trained today then he wouldn't have stood out quite like he did. knowing something that another doesn't know doesn't make you great. doing it better than everyone else does.



No, the fighters he fought at the onset were rated very highly, and yes he later stopped, but he's time had passed. He cant live forever. rated highly....as in black belts? gee i guess scott morris was rated very highly because he was in a top level competition too.



He beat opponents with a style his family created, if they did not know it, it takes nothing from his achivements. but, aside from blind statistics, it doesn't add anything special either......at least not to the caliper of being the best mma 'artist' of all time. and LOL @ yer dumbass still thinking that the gracies "created" jiu jitsu.

Not all fighters are knowledgeable in Muay Thai.. or Kung Fu, its just the best that succeeds... even sakubara's pro Japanese wrestling style, is not that knowledgable to the gracies, while through the Gracies success BJJ has become well known to all, due to its effectiveness, hence finally the general population being able to counter many of the Gracies. Unlike some, the Gracies did not hide their lethal fighting style from the rest of the world. but they had no problem shying away once they had some actual competition. and don't give me that old age ****. there just happens to be a pretty elderly mma fighter out there who has no problem neutralizing every style that's thrown at him. and it's not because he knows something that the rest of the world doesn't....it's because he's better at it than the rest.



True, but he didnt bring a machine gun into the ring. So assuming neither could you, i dont believe you would win a single one of his fights. He went around challenging the best masters from all martail arts disciplin's... For years he challenged all the best proclaimed fighters of the time. Including Iron Mike Tyson, whom it is evident today wouldnt have a very good time in the MMA arena. ok that just blew right past you.



At this point... I am convinced that you are unbelievably naive, and unable to comprehend simple coherent facts, through undeniable evidence. How you are a moderator of such a huge mma forum... is evidently due to the simple fact, that u probably put it up, because as far as MMA goes, you dont know very much.
All in all im just trying to show how Rickson is definately a competitor for best MMA artist of all time... Not that all other fighters are insignificant.. wow. simple coherent facts that the gracie brothers are the best mma artists. it's not that i (or everybody else here) can't comprehend your "facts", oh we knew rickson's stats for quite sometime. it's just that you're too ignorant to comprehend what truely makes a good athlete. i was about to cite a comparable situation but your dumbass would probably take it in the literal sense and think i'm planning on stepping in the ring with a gun.

and don't bother with the moderater shot. you just got done whining at tanner for making you look stupid. if yer gonna try his same methods, don't pout when they're used against you.

As was previously stated, research your facts before you throw comments.
Rickson is the best fighter of all time and i can say that with confidence.

Silva would get his little ****** ass slapped all over the ring, all people who know MMA from before this time and of Rickson's time will KNOW this. UFC and Pride FC are kids in the world of true MMA and so are you.

Playa you should no place in this discussion, u present a statement without fact. The argument doesnt need everyone's two cents because they watch one or two fights and see Silva smash some silly bastard up, and think "OMG HE IS OWNAGE AND THE BEST EVER."

I suggest you dl Rickson Videos predating UFC and Pride FC. Japan Underground, Vale Tudo or prehaps K1. Do not throw accusations as you odn not know his history, or it owuld be fact that you would agree.

This is not a complicated matter, all the UFC fighters would probaly concur that Rickson was the best ever. His track record and show of exception skill and fighting stradegy is an example of his superiority in the ring. No one may compare, all those TRUE mma followers and those who know their history will agree with me, i know this for sure.

Genuinely
Lukas

"Not Until Death"

curly IP check these guys. there's no way possible someone could throw out arguements this ****in stupid without it being a joke. not even sherdog's kids aren't this goofy.

Another little internet kid trying to get other opinions noticed by gettin rid of others.
Purity you are a ****ing moron, u proved it in your response to tino and myself. Ur so ****in ignorant to ur own mis-comprehension u do not realize what the people around u are saying. Now ur asking the moderator to IP check us? what would that prove?

Do not turn this sour cos u cannot accept the blatant truth. Quote this whole reply, again, your every word is moronic, i cannot believe a site like this is being controlled by such idiots as urself.

Tino posted a simple comment and you turned it into a sour conflict. If ur moderator decides to IP check us, thats proves his inability to listen to others comments. Its a forum. Purity further educate urself in the subject and in english for that matter.

Good Work Purity on Tsunami :You_Rock_
Lukas

Purity, I have changed my opinion about you according to ur tsunami post. I think everyone appreciates your concern and effort.

I do not change my Position on Rickson, and i do not expect you to change your opinion on me or my attitude. However it would be extremely nice if we could have a decent discussion.

Sincerely
Lukas

curly IP check these guys. there's no way possible someone could throw out arguements this ****in stupid without it being a joke. not even sherdog's kids aren't this goofy.

Two different IP addys but both from South Africa. One is from Pretoria, the other from Johannesburg. So either Rickson is popular in South Africa or he's bouncing off of boxes.
Either way you want to discuss Rickson Gracie do it without name calling. Anyone who has to resort to name calling usually doesn't have a valid point.

BTW I train at a Royler affiliated school and I still say Sakuraba.

I agree Curley about the discussion part, but i do not appreciate the check up for someone who started the name calling. And one of us is not from Pretoria (check that system u use), suming must be wrong with the database ;), shouldve just asked :P.. :op:

And Rickson is unknown here, we just chose to educate ourselves in the matter. But i think this could be a very good discussion if others would listen and question our statements instead of attacking them and closing their minds. I shall do the same

Lukas

no worries luk. we all got opinions and i don't take it personally if they get nasty. it's the internet and it keeps me busy when i'm at work. so if you want to keep it at a mature level then please explain to me how Silva would get his ass slapped around the ring by guys like Rickson.

and remember, just because you have facts doesn't mean you're right. we all have facts. so from now on, if you wanna convince people of your stance then use your facts to formulate an opinion that makes sense.

Didnt Tanner used too train with Rickson? Or at Ricksons Gym? I know he did some Gi modeling, lol....

Didnt Tanner used too train with Rickson? Or at Ricksons Gym? I know he did some Gi modeling, lol....


Years ago I trained there.....back when I was uneducated in MMA and thought he was the best fighter.

I've been discussing Rickson for way to many years. If these guys here think he's the best let them think it......I won't spend any more time typing out responses to people stuck in this mindset.

Ok guys lets start this off on a good note then:

I am not sure if you have watched matches of Rickson's that have been outside Pride FC? I'm sure some of you have.

I over exagerrated about Silva getting his ass slapped all over the ring ;)
But however i do believe that Rickson would beat him. Now in the matches of Rickson, i have noted that his stand up fighting is remarkably good and he exceptioanlly power on his feet compared too other BJJ fighters. Also it is shown Rickson has had the ablity - not too take down BETTER fighters than Silva - but he has taken down opponents that would undoubtably be harder too take down than Silva.. And i believe as soon as Silva went too ground the match would become as lob sided into Rickson's advantage..

Do you guys agree?

Lukas

P.S- I would like too hear your response Tanner, i believe you could share good insight into the subject, but dont say you wont post on the subject anymore because of the difference of opinion that led into a liitle sourness. ;)

If you think Rickson would beat Wanderlei I have nothing further to add to this topic of conversation.

Simply because it is possible... Maybe Wanderlei would win, but thats not the point at all... the point is you are too absent minded to even comprehend the possibility. And Wanderlei is not undefeated... If the fight had to get 2 ground the odds would drastically change... anyhow, maybe you are right, wanderlei is a new generation fighter... Rickson was just undoubtedly the best of his time, which was some time ago, and back then he was so far ahead of the rest that he could be called the best of all time (in my opinion). He fought most of his fights before the establishment of Pride and other such tournaments.

Tino...

I just can't believe it's 2005 and I'm sitting here reading a Rickson Vs. thread

Well Curley as the title says, Legends die hard, and 30 years from now sum1 will say the same about Silva..

I am gonna start a thread about Frank Dux...

I'm gonna start a thread about Frank Dux Lee Van Damme.

How can i post a new thread this conversation ahs run dry.. plus i cant find it ANYWHERE!!!

iloanfury: go hiksin!!!
TannerBJJ: so lame
TannerBJJ: I gave up
iloanfury: i was disappointed
iloanfury: i wanted maaaad reamage
TannerBJJ: no point
TannerBJJ: those two guys are braindead
TannerBJJ: and to stuck in this dumb **** mentality
iloanfury: entertainment
TannerBJJ: no matter what I say would mater
TannerBJJ: they would come back with the same comebacks which make no sense at all
iloanfury: you can't deny 400000000000000 wins
iloanfury: take that muther****er!!!
TannerBJJ: and all of them documented
iloanfury: i remember when rickson suplexed sak's grandfather in his 2nd fight
iloanfury: ownage
TannerBJJ: yeah
TannerBJJ: I remember when Rickson defeated the entire German army and then cured AIDS and Cancer in the same day
iloanfury: same hour!
iloanfury: and that was right before he stopped 911 from happening by catching the 2 planes with his bare hands
TannerBJJ: no, you dumb ass
TannerBJJ: he double arm barred them
TannerBJJ: the planes obviously tapped
TannerBJJ: thus bringing them to the gorund
iloanfury: THAT'S why king kong was jealous and lost rickson's 20003924 match.
iloanfury: DUH!!!!
TannerBJJ: that was about the middle of Ricksons career
iloanfury: before it began to seriously progress
TannerBJJ: right
TannerBJJ: when he was still a blue belt
iloanfury: into aligning cosmos and altering comets from earthbound collisions via armbar
TannerBJJ: I think that's when he got his brown belt
iloanfury: wrong again. brown beltage was after he spun the sun on his finger like a basketball
TannerBJJ: on his way to walking on Mars and starting our first colony of people there
iloanfury: don't say 'start'. say 'invent'.
iloanfury: as in.......'invent' jew gitsew
TannerBJJ: Rickson Jitsu
iloanfury: can anyone stop him???
TannerBJJ: no, Saku doesn't have the aura for him
TannerBJJ: Takada did twice though
TannerBJJ: so did Bud Smith

How can i post a new thread this conversation ahs run dry.. plus i cant find it ANYWHERE!!!



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Click that or look for one just like it.

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