View Full Version : The Time is Now: Who Could Handle Wlad in the Historical Pantheon?


LondonRingRules
06-22-2009, 12:29 PM
Yes, it's time for all the Haters and the Lovers of Wlad to gather for a traditional dust up, so who can handle Wlad of the past 4 yrs?

Last time he took a good crack on the jaw was the Sanders fight that saw him crawl off the canvas 4x before the ref had seen enough. Brewster never landed much of anything their first fight, or second for that matter, that was a strange collapse of energy at the end of 4 rds. Maybe Peter got in one good shot to the jaw, but the rest were illegal rabbit punches in those curious wide swing for the rafters hooks Peter used to throw back when everyone was ducking him.

Byrd, Brock, Brewster, Austin, Iggy, Thompson, Rahman, Chagaev, 8-0, 7 KO in his current title run against champs and Ring ranked contenders. 5 of his last 10 fights were against undefeateds and he's barely having to unsheath his right hand to do it. Just 33 yrs of age this spring and already a 53-3, 47 KO career record and 14-2 title record, who could beat this version of Wlad.

For comparison, at the same age working back, Ali was champ for 3 of his 8 fights: (Lyle, Wepner, Foreman,) Frazier, Lubbers, Norton, Norton, Bugner and went 7-1, 3 KO, dropping the first Norton fight.

Let's hear it from the rafters and shout from the rooftops. I'll weigh in after a good outcry.........

mickey malone
06-22-2009, 02:27 PM
Wlad's been the only dominant heavy over the past 4 years...
Think the thread would be more interesting, if stated over the last 10 years...
Someone like McCall or Areola would be more than capable of upsetting him though....

Jim Jeffries
06-22-2009, 06:28 PM
Wlad's been the only dominant heavy over the past 4 years...
Think the thread would be more interesting, if stated over the last 10 years...
Someone like McCall or Areola would be more than capable of upsetting him though....

I'm pretty sure he means the Wlad of the last 4 years, so as to keep people from bringing up the Puritty fight from over a decade ago, as if Wlad was in his prime back then. Obviously Wlad has improved tremendously under the tutelage of Emanuel Steward, and while his style isn't as exciting as it used to be, he's definitely harder to beat. I think Liston, Foreman and Tyson would be the toughest match ups, with most others being far more competitive than a lot of people might think.

RightCross94
06-22-2009, 06:33 PM
tyson, foreman, frazier, ali, liston, holyfield all beat wlad

The Iron Man
06-22-2009, 08:37 PM
tyson, foreman, frazier, ali, liston, holyfield all beat wlad

i would put lewis, holmes, dempsey and vitali in there aswell.

CCobra
06-23-2009, 03:43 AM
I think my post in the thread titled 'Who Can Handle Vitali in the Historical Pantheon?' is something I may use as my arguement for Dempsey beating Wlad.

Dempsey has a good shot of beating Vitali. Dempsey was 6***8217;1 and weighed close to 200lbs but under modern training methods and whatnot a guy of his size could make the 200lbs limit easily. Dempsey has a history of beating bigger men such as Jess Willard who measures a massive 6***8217;6 and 1 half. He had incredible size for a man of his era, matches with his weight of almost 245lbs and you have a big guy here. Dempsey also sparred with Bill Tate who weighed, at best, in the mid 240lbs also entered the ring measuring 6***8217;6 and 1 half. Dempsey seemed to find it easier to slay giants due to his tricky style of fighting. His bobbing and weaving and his granite chin allowed him to avoid shots coming in and land some heavy shots coming in. If he had to take shots then he proved throughout his career that his chin was more then adequate enough to take any.

Dempsey made a career of beating bigger guys. His most important win is against the massive Willard and in terms of Boxing history; his most significant win is against Firpo who himself was almost 6***8217;3 in size. He also beat Carl Morris on numerous occasions (I***8217;ll have to check up his record to see just how many times) as well as Fulton who, if memory serves me right, was 6***8217;6 himself. Dempsey fought men who were incredibly large for his era and would still be considered large fighters. These are guys who could stand up against Vitali and only give away an inch in height and 3 or 4lbs in weight. Dempsey slayed them and sparred with big men like Bill Tate (who has fought the likes of Langford, Wills, Gunboat Smith, Norfolk, John L. Johnson, Jeanette and also holds victories over some of them. Not to mention Dempsey fought Andre Anderson (6***8217;4) to a no decision but was awarded the decision by the local papers. I think historically speaking Dempsey handled big men well simply because his style allowed him to handle those bigger men. The bob and weave style was most effective against bigger fighters because the troubles they have with a constantly moving target and it enables Dempsey to get inside and work Vitali.

Stylistically speaking Dempsey had a come forward style that can cause problems to Vitali. Dempsey could bang with both fists, is among the best body workers in Heavyweight history, had a granite chin and was a rugged fighter.

The Dempsey roll will evade that powerful jab that Wlad throws and once Dempsey gets under he can do the damage from the inside. Wlad doesn't possess the chin his older brother Vitali does so I think Dempsey knocks him out inside 6.

mickey malone
06-23-2009, 05:20 AM
I'm pretty sure he means the Wlad of the last 4 years, so as to keep people from bringing up the Puritty fight from over a decade ago, as if Wlad was in his prime back then. Obviously Wlad has improved tremendously under the tutelage of Emanuel Steward, and while his style isn't as exciting as it used to be, he's definitely harder to beat. I think Liston, Foreman and Tyson would be the toughest match ups, with most others being far more competitive than a lot of people might think.
I may have misinterpretated the question, as I've only mentioned the possibilities of 2 current fighters....
As of all time.... Wlad has improved his stamina/defence mechanism immensely over the last few years.. Hence the reason, I wouldn't dream of mentioning the Purity fight..
All great fighters have a bad day at the office..
After watching his most recent defense.. I'd say he's too fast/mobile for Liston, as well as bigger... I think Wlad TKO's Liston around the 10th.. Foreman and Tyson would do the same to Wlad though... Others (in their prime) I'd (confidently) pick to beat Wlad are... Lewis, Holmes, Ali, Louis...
50/50 fights would have to include.... Tua, Norton, Johnson, Marciano, Frazier, Dempsey & (If only he used his right hand) Gerry Cooney....
Had to end with a bit of controversy.... Will start a new thread soon!!!

▀ringer
06-23-2009, 08:43 PM
I'd bet the farm on Tyson, Frazier, Vitali and Foreman starching Wlad within 6 rounds each.

Others whom I think would beat him in a 12-15 rounder, but wouldn't bet as much on are Lewis, Holmes, and Holyfield.

I wouldn't make a pick in Wlad/Ali because despite Muhammad's advantages in speed, and ring smarts, Wlad's size alone more than makes up that difference.

Liston, ehh....He was a great fighter when he was on, but his connections to the mob, and shady accusations of "throwing" certain fights wouldn't allow me to bet a dime on him.

Dempsey is a possibility. He has a good record against the giants of his time (namely Fulton, and Willard), but Fulton and Willard weren't exactly notorious for their agile movements and blinding speed. I think Jack would be game, and make a good go of it. It could go either way but I'd bet that after a grueling fight, Wlad would chop him down in the 7th or 8th. (Of course you could argue that Wlad has never seen a grueling fight, either....)

Dempsey's just never seen size and skill on par with Wlad before.

Holyfield would have a good chance at outpointing him as well, but his record in title fights leaves something to be desired and as the saying goes ; "Those who do not learn from History are doomed to repeat it.". Therefore I wouldn't wager much on Evander, either.

bodyshot
06-24-2009, 02:13 AM
Larry Holmes. His arms were longer than pool cues so Wlad wouldn't be able to keep him at bay with the jab. That fight would probably end in a 4th round KO. There are about a dozen others but Holmes would have the easiest work with him. I can even see someone with Razor Ruddick's power and chin giving Wlad fits...

black.ink
06-24-2009, 07:47 AM
Holmes, Frazier and Ali would be my best bets. Maybe Foreman too.

Richie-G
06-24-2009, 08:06 AM
liston, foreman, tyson, frazier, ali, louis, lewis, holmes.

Sugarj
06-24-2009, 08:51 AM
Working back, I think its a pickem fight between Lennox Lewis and Wlad, Lennox more tallented for me but it really would be a case of who connected well first.

I think a prime Holyfield wins a close decision.

I think a prime Bowe (the guy who fought Holyfield first time) knocks him out.

Prime Tyson would surely find his chin sooner or later.

Holmes would probably win a decision, but not an easy fight!

Prime Foreman, like Tyson surely would find his chin. Even the older Foreman would have a chance too.

Ali would likely win a decision, but I'm sure he would have similar problems to Holmes.

Liston would have a chance too, even though he was much shorter his reach and power were amazing.

I honestly dont think any fighters prior to the 60s would be worth betting on to beat Wlad although Dempsey, Baer, Louis, Marciano and Shavers have punchers chances. All too small in my opinion, great that they were they never faced big guys as good as Wlad (Jess Willard, Primo Carnera and Abe Simon surely cannot be used as suitable examples of how these smaller guys would do), I doubt they'd get past Wlad's jab with any regularity.

GJC
06-24-2009, 11:29 AM
Working back, I think its a pickem fight between Lennox Lewis and Wlad, Lennox more tallented for me but it really would be a case of who connected well first.

I think a prime Holyfield wins a close decision.

I think a prime Bowe (the guy who fought Holyfield first time) knocks him out.

Prime Tyson would surely find his chin sooner or later.

Holmes would probably win a decision, but not an easy fight!

Prime Foreman, like Tyson surely would find his chin. Even the older Foreman would have a chance too.

Ali would likely win a decision, but I'm sure he would have similar problems to Holmes.

Liston would have a chance too, even though he was much shorter his reach and power were amazing.

I honestly dont think any fighters prior to the 60s would be worth betting on to beat Wlad although Dempsey, Baer, Louis, Marciano and Shavers have punchers chances. All too small in my opinion, great that they were they never faced big guys as good as Wlad (Jess Willard, Primo Carnera and Abe Simon surely cannot be used as suitable examples of how these smaller guys would do), I doubt they'd get past Wlad's jab with any regularity.
Good post agree with most of it

Sugarj
06-24-2009, 12:23 PM
Cheers bud!

I did miss one other guy, Ike Ibeabuchi! I'd fancy his chances.......

mickey malone
06-24-2009, 03:50 PM
Cheers bud!

I did miss one other guy, Ike Ibeabuchi! I'd fancy his chances.......
Bowe was a good call to...

I also think (in their primes) Witherspoon & Mercer would stand a chance..
I wouldn't put my house on it though...

Sugarj
06-25-2009, 08:31 AM
Yes, you'd have to say either would have a chance on good form, but both were inconsistent.

I wouldn't favour the Witherspoon that fought Bruno/Bonecrusher Smith or the Mercer that fought Holmes, the one that fought Lewis would have a chance!

fight_professor
06-25-2009, 11:58 AM
Ali, Louis, Lewis, Tyson, Foreman, Holmes, Frazier, Bowe, Liston all spark him.

Maybe Shavers too, if he landed...

CCobra
06-25-2009, 05:19 PM
Ibeabuchi may have a shot at Wlad, although we'll never know how talented he could have been. The guy had incredible punch output, a granite chin and beat two undefeated top rated contenders in David Tua & Chris Byrd. I think he has a good shot at beating Wlad.

Infern0
06-25-2009, 05:21 PM
http://martinspaven.com/gallery/Portraits/Audley%20Harrison.jpg

CCobra
06-25-2009, 05:28 PM
Can't believe I tipped Audley Harrison to be an all time great Heavyweight.

mickey malone
06-26-2009, 10:26 AM
Can't believe I tipped Audley Harrison to be an all time great Heavyweight.
Lol... Lot of people did... Especially Audley himself..
Don't worry... I had Hatton to KO Pac.. We all Fu*k up..

LondonRingRules
06-27-2009, 06:22 AM
i would put lewis, holmes, dempsey and vitali in there aswell.

** I wouldn't put Big Pants Lar in the above category. Guy never outclassed a prime great or truly talented contender save Cooney and many defenses against non top ten fighters.

In a styles/natural attributes match up, his strengths are over matched and he lacks the KO power the others had to put Wlad in trouble.

Wlad is one of the best outside fighters in history. The only outside fighters that could trouble him are Ali with his style, and speed of hand and foot, not the ropadope Ali who'd lose a wide decision, and a post McCall Lewis who's only terrible mistake was the first Rahman fight and maybe the Vitali fight. And of course Vitali would bother him.

Inside fighters would include Dempsey and Tyson. I give Tyson the best chance of all. Louis would have to be included here, but Wlad is not an attacking big man like he was used to dismantling, and I feel the Louis counter punching won't be as big a factor.

Foreman would be interesting, pure slugger in his first go, and boxer/puncher in his 2nd go, he really did a number on the best ever version of Holy and put him in retreat or hanging on for life in that fight. Since he never faced a big man his first go around, hard to know what his wide open style might accomplish against a better boxer/puncher than existed in his era, so I'd probably tip the 41 yr old George over the 24-25 yr old George as far as odds go.

Someone mentioned Bowe. No, he's mentally deficient, scared of Lewis, and fared poorly against Golota, the best big men of his era. He was lucky enough to catch Holy on the decline and was able to use his size over a little guy with all the punch steamed out of him.

I'd also include Primo in the mix. Guy is way underrated and a very aggressive fighter with a good chin always in great shape. Wlad wouldn't be able to muscle him around and he could put some good pressure on which I think is Wlad's greatest weakness. Tony Thompson boxed credibly and had some moments. Primo orthodox, but bigger and stronger than Tony would be in the hunt.

Someone mentioned Liston. On talent, Liston's in the hunt, but mentally, I think he folds against a big guy like Wlad. He was better suited beating up little guys he had obvious advantages on.

RightCross94
06-27-2009, 06:33 AM
** I wouldn't put Big Pants Lar in the above category. Guy never outclassed a prime great or truly talented contender save Cooney and many defenses against non top ten fighters.

In a styles/natural attributes match up, his strengths are over matched and he lacks the KO power the others had to put Wlad in trouble.

Wlad is one of the best outside fighters in history. The only outside fighters that could trouble him are Ali with his style, and speed of hand and foot, not the ropadope Ali who'd lose a wide decision, and a post McCall Lewis who's only terrible mistake was the first Rahman fight and maybe the Vitali fight. And of course Vitali would bother him.

Inside fighters would include Dempsey and Tyson. I give Tyson the best chance of all. Louis would have to be included here, but Wlad is not an attacking big man like he was used to dismantling, and I feel the Louis counter punching won't be as big a factor.

Foreman would be interesting, pure slugger in his first go, and boxer/puncher in his 2nd go, he really did a number on the best ever version of Holy and put him in retreat or hanging on for life in that fight. Since he never faced a big man his first go around, hard to know what his wide open style might accomplish against a better boxer/puncher than existed in his era, so I'd probably tip the 41 yr old George over the 24-25 yr old George as far as odds go.

Someone mentioned Bowe. No, he's mentally deficient, scared of Lewis, and fared poorly against Golota, the best big men of his era. He was lucky enough to catch Holy on the decline and was able to use his size over a little guy with all the punch steamed out of him.

I'd also include Primo in the mix. Guy is way underrated and a very aggressive fighter with a good chin always in great shape. Wlad wouldn't be able to muscle him around and he could put some good pressure on which I think is Wlad's greatest weakness. Tony Thompson boxed credibly and had some moments. Primo orthodox, but bigger and stronger than Tony would be in the hunt.

Someone mentioned Liston. On talent, Liston's in the hunt, but mentally, I think he folds against a big guy like Wlad. He was better suited beating up little guys he had obvious advantages on.

wait so....primo carnera has a good chance vs wlad, but riddick bowe and sonny liston and larry holmes dont
:wtf: seriously what the ****

Kid McCoy
06-27-2009, 09:08 AM
Someone mentioned Liston. On talent, Liston's in the hunt, but mentally, I think he folds against a big guy like Wlad. He was better suited beating up little guys he had obvious advantages on.

I don't see what you're basing that on. Against Ali, Liston was underprepared and retired with a legitimate injury, confirmed by his medical examination after the fight. As for the second, well I don't think that was on the level anyway. Nobody marks LaMotta down for "losing" to Billy Fox.

Aside from Ali, Liston did face some fairly big men in Williams, Valdes, Clark and Wepner and didn't crumble against any of them, and by all accounts gave as good as he got in sparring with Foreman. I'd give him a decent chance of beating Wlad.

Other than that, some interesting analysis.

TheGreatA
06-27-2009, 11:19 AM
I don't see what you're basing that on. Against Ali, Liston was underprepared and retired with a legitimate injury, confirmed by his medical examination after the fight. As for the second, well I don't think that was on the level anyway. Nobody marks LaMotta down for "losing" to Billy Fox.

Aside from Ali, Liston did face some fairly big men in Williams, Valdes, Clark and Wepner and didn't crumble against any of them, and by all accounts gave as good as he got in sparring with Foreman. I'd give him a decent chance of beating Wlad.

Other than that, some interesting analysis.

The Cleveland Williams fights proved to me that Liston was like a man possessed in his pre-title days, willing to walk through bombs in order to win.

Eddie Machen also fought the perfect fight against him, slipping his jab and countering, yet Liston was able to adjust and outpoint Machen clearly in the late rounds despite the referee threatening to disqualify him.

In the end winning the title brought him nothing but more (bad) publicity and he practically gave it away.

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LondonRingRules
06-28-2009, 09:01 AM
I don't see what you're basing that on. Against Ali, Liston was underprepared and retired with a legitimate injury, confirmed by his medical examination after the fight. As for the second, well I don't think that was on the level anyway. Nobody marks LaMotta down for "losing" to Billy Fox.

Aside from Ali, Liston did face some fairly big men in Williams, Valdes, Clark and Wepner and didn't crumble against any of them, and by all accounts gave as good as he got in sparring with Foreman. I'd give him a decent chance of beating Wlad.

Other than that, some interesting analysis.

** Let's start with Williams, his first legit big man test, big man being relative to the day.

Cleve had never beat a ranked contender or fringe contender coming into that bout, his only significant bout being a KO loss to fringe Satterfield. Cleve not known for his boxing, basically does a number on Sonny in the early going, just picked him apart. Sonny was intimidated. Fairplay, he adjusts and finds the soft jaw of Cleve with a nothing looking left hook and the result a mere formality after that.

Liston had been groomed with a series against good prospects and gatekeeper types wasn't prepared for a big man, and Williams just a flea compared to the Klitschkos who's reputation would precede them.

Cleve a nice specimen physically with dangerous power, but the only win of note is a KO over Terrell several fights later who was still in an unformed state himself. Cleve gets touted over Roy Harris who at least put together back to back to back wins over Baker, Pastrano, and Besmonoff going into Patterson, better than any thing Cleve ever did.

Valdez was inconsistent and a spent force when Liston got him, Clark a journeyman, and Wepner a club fighter his spar partner George had taken care of as a novice, not legit threats.

As far as the Ali fights go, early on Liston makes a huge attempt on Ali probably because he was told that's where the money was. When it didn't work, he was told to stay on his stool after the betting was adjusted. I don't begrudge him for his choices given he was a mobbed fighter and getting up in years, and he had plenty of help throwing the 2nd fight.

The fights were never legit fair contests and not representative of Sonny at his best, but at his best he had significant physical advantages over his contemps save for Williams whom he had an advantage of a better chin and competition.

DeJohn, Machen, Williams, Harris and Folley is a good run at his best going into Floyd, but realistically, where would those guys rank in the heavy division today? Williams is the only legit heavy of the bunch and he about the size of Haye who's still struggling to enter the heavy ranks, a cruiser trying to grow himself into a heavy.

Here's Ring's current top 10: Who do you think Williams is gonna beat as a point of comparison of the eras?

CHAMPION: Wladimir Klitschko Country: Ukraine Record: 53-3-0 (47 KOs)Ranking: This Week: C | Last Week: #1 | Weeks On List: 213 Titles: WBO, IBF

1. Vitali Klitschko Country: Ukraine Record: 37-2-0 (36 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #1 | Last Week: #2 | Weeks On List: 37 Titles: WBC

2. Ruslan Chagaev Country: Germany Record: 25-0-1 (17 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #2 | Last Week: #3 | Weeks On List: 136

3. Alexander Povetkin Country: Russia Record: 17-0-0 (12 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #3 | Last Week: #4 | Weeks On List: 87

4. Nikolai Valuev Country: Russia Record: 50-1-0 (34 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #4 | Last Week: #5 | Weeks On List: 184 Titles: WBA

5. Eddie Chambers Country: USA (Philadelphia, Pa.) Record: 34-1-0 (18 KOs)Ranking: This Week:#5 | Last Week: #6 | Weeks On List: 13

6. Chris Arreola Country: USA (Riverside, Calif.) Record: 27-0-0 (24 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #6 | Last Week: #8 | Weeks On List: 14

7. Alexander Dimitrenko Country: Ukraine Record: 29-0-0 (19 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #7 | Last Week: #7 | Weeks On List: 32

8. David Haye Country: England (London) Record: 22-1-0 (21 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #8 | Last Week: #9 | Weeks On List: 14

9. John Ruiz Country: USA (Chelsea, Mass.) Record: 43-8-1 (29 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #9 | Last Week: #10 | Weeks On List: 13

10. Denis Boytsov

mickey malone
06-28-2009, 11:40 AM
wait so....primo carnera has a good chance vs wlad, but riddick bowe and sonny liston and larry holmes dont
:wtf: seriously what the ****
Wow.... Guy was talking sense until that bit.... Right on!!!

Davros?
06-28-2009, 02:02 PM
Ali, Foreman, Liston, Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson, Frazier, Dempsey, and Louis would all have a good chance against Wlad.

TheGreatA
06-28-2009, 02:04 PM
** Let's start with Williams, his first legit big man test, big man being relative to the day.

I would call Mike DeJohn a big man for the era. Liston stopped him in 6 in the fight before facing Cleveland Williams the first time.

Bethea was also a 200+ lbs opponent, known for his durability. Liston knocked him out in one, the only time Bethea was ever stopped.

Cleve had never beat a ranked contender or fringe contender coming into that bout, his only significant bout being a KO loss to fringe Satterfield. Cleve not known for his boxing, basically does a number on Sonny in the early going, just picked him apart. Sonny was intimidated. Fairplay, he adjusts and finds the soft jaw of Cleve with a nothing looking left hook and the result a mere formality after that.

Cleveland had not fought great opposition but was already noted for his punching ability. Any man over 6'3, 210 lbs with the ability to throw six left hooks in quick succession is going to be a touted prospect.

Liston was not prepared for such an early onslaught and suffered a badly bleeding broken nose early on. Williams' exceptional combination of speed and power bothered him but he adjusted to Williams' attack and took the fight to him.

Williams was 20 years of age when he took on Satterfield on a short notice. I wouldn't hold this loss against him. Despite a "soft jaw" Liston was the only man to have Williams down during his peak years from 1957 to 1964.

Liston had been groomed with a series against good prospects and gatekeeper types wasn't prepared for a big man, and Williams just a flea compared to the Klitschkos who's reputation would precede them.

As I said earlier, he had already fought Mike DeJohn, Wayne Bethea, Johnny Summerlin. He was not prepared for Williams because of Williams' talents.

Corrie Sanders hadn't exactly beaten great fighters before facing Wladimir, he was also older and had been knocked out in his prime. Most people recognize his talents and potential which is why he was able to throw Wladimir off his game and actually knock him out.


Cleve a nice specimen physically with dangerous power, but the only win of note is a KO over Terrell several fights later who was still in an unformed state himself. Cleve gets touted over Roy Harris who at least put together back to back to back wins over Baker, Pastrano, and Besmonoff going into Patterson, better than any thing Cleve ever did.

Terrell went on a long string of wins after losing to Cleveland Williams. It was the only time anyone ever stopped Terrell aside from his last fight.

Most who have seen Williams' fights against Eddie Machen and the rematch against Terrell can say that he was a bit unlucky not to receive those decisions. The newspapers scored those fights for him.

He had finally acquired a promoter who could get him the big fights, with a third fight for Terrell's version of the world title ahead of him, before being shot to the stomach which should have by all means ended his career.

Valdez was inconsistent and a spent force when Liston got him, Clark a journeyman, and Wepner a club fighter his spar partner George had taken care of as a novice, not legit threats.

Legit criticism but Valdez was always a threat with his power and made quick work of Brian London in his last fight before being forced to retire due to an eye injury.

Clark was on a winning streak which included wins over Leotis Martin and Eddie Machen. He was ranked in the Ring Magazine top 10 at the time.

Wepner was always a tough customer, claimed to have never been knocked down before Ali yet Liston had put him down with a body blow.

The fights were never legit fair contests and not representative of Sonny at his best, but at his best he had significant physical advantages over his contemps save for Williams whom he had an advantage of a better chin and competition.

DeJohn, Machen, Williams, Harris and Folley is a good run at his best going into Floyd, but realistically, where would those guys rank in the heavy division today? Williams is the only legit heavy of the bunch and he about the size of Haye who's still struggling to enter the heavy ranks, a cruiser trying to grow himself into a heavy.

They were legit heavyweights then, always turned up in good shape and had the skills to compete with anybody.

Here's Ring's current top 10: Who do you think Williams is gonna beat as a point of comparison of the eras?

CHAMPION: Wladimir Klitschko Country: Ukraine Record: 53-3-0 (47 KOs)Ranking: This Week: C | Last Week: #1 | Weeks On List: 213 Titles: WBO, IBF

1. Vitali Klitschko Country: Ukraine Record: 37-2-0 (36 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #1 | Last Week: #2 | Weeks On List: 37 Titles: WBC

2. Ruslan Chagaev Country: Germany Record: 25-0-1 (17 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #2 | Last Week: #3 | Weeks On List: 136

3. Alexander Povetkin Country: Russia Record: 17-0-0 (12 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #3 | Last Week: #4 | Weeks On List: 87

4. Nikolai Valuev Country: Russia Record: 50-1-0 (34 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #4 | Last Week: #5 | Weeks On List: 184 Titles: WBA

5. Eddie Chambers Country: USA (Philadelphia, Pa.) Record: 34-1-0 (18 KOs)Ranking: This Week:#5 | Last Week: #6 | Weeks On List: 13

6. Chris Arreola Country: USA (Riverside, Calif.) Record: 27-0-0 (24 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #6 | Last Week: #8 | Weeks On List: 14

7. Alexander Dimitrenko Country: Ukraine Record: 29-0-0 (19 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #7 | Last Week: #7 | Weeks On List: 32

8. David Haye Country: England (London) Record: 22-1-0 (21 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #8 | Last Week: #9 | Weeks On List: 14

9. John Ruiz Country: USA (Chelsea, Mass.) Record: 43-8-1 (29 KOs)Ranking: This Week: #9 | Last Week: #10 | Weeks On List: 13

10. Denis Boytsov

Looking at the statistics of most of these fighters, most of them aren't any taller than 6'3 and weigh no more than 230 lbs.

The only super heavyweights out of them are the Klitschko brothers, Valuev and Dimitrenko. I don't rate Valuev, 46 year old, 6'2, 210 lb Holyfield beat him in my view and Dimitrenko hasn't proven himself against quality opposition. His big step up will be against Eddie Chambers, a skilled cruiserweight who carries 20 lbs of fat.

Chagaev, Povetkin, Chambers, Arreola, Haye, Ruiz and Boytsov aren't big heavyweights by any means. Might carry a bit more weight than Machen and Folley but one can question whether that extra weight actually does them any good, looking at some of their recent performances.

http://www.unikosmos.de/bilder/lupe/585Ruslan_Chagaev.jpg

http://www.boxnews.com.ua/photos/1389/Alexander-Povetkin-Chambers11.jpg

http://www.boxnews.com.ua/photos/1800/Chris-Arreola-Jameel-McCline4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/TheManchine/Avatarit/clevelandwilliams-1.jpg

joe strong
06-28-2009, 02:47 PM
lewis,Tyson,prime Rahman,sanders,tua,prime maskaev,ruddock,,old & new foreman,prime Holyfield,bowe,Ali,holmes,witherspoon,prime mccall,ron lyle,ibeabuchi...other than chris Byrd he doesn't have that great of a resume.all the names I listed above would beat anyone wlad beat other than Byrd(who beat tua).lewis dominated tua but could take his best left hook & since wlads been down what 13 times it's safe to say he would take a tua left too well.

joe strong
06-28-2009, 02:59 PM
I even considered putting prime michael moorer & Morrison but their chins are very suspect.Morrison had the big punch but he'd have to land it & moorer was a skilled southpaw who could punch.

fight_professor
06-28-2009, 03:01 PM
Anyone who thinks Liston wouldnt have a great chance of sparking Wlad is confused. Sonny was one of the greatest HW who ever lived. 84" reach, he could just jab with the man, and his power would tell in any exchange.

Wlad has a weak chin. Liston was a beast, only Ali-who is the GOAT-laid a beatdown on him, as he would almost anyone. I'm sorry but mechanical Wlad doesnt beat Sonny, and as for beating Holmes, **** out of here with that bs!