View Full Version : Ray Robinson against boxers.


Richie-G
06-21-2009, 07:36 AM
From most of the footage I have seen of SRR, it seems that most of his opponents were come forward aggressive brawlers or just strong fighters, as opposed to pure boxers e.g Lamotta, Basilio, Turpin, Fullmer, Olson.

Does anyone know how he fared against pure boxers, as I haven't seen any footage of him fighting fighters in this mould and was wondering how he would fight and what it would look like. The only fighter I can really think of would be Kid Gavilan, has anyone seen any footage of this fight? I ask this question as I just wonder how he would box against a slick boxer. Does anyone know of any other fighters who he fought in this mould/ or have any footage?

Thanks.

Oriachim
06-21-2009, 08:25 AM
From most of the footage I have seen of SRR, it seems that most of his opponents were come forward aggressive brawlers or just strong fighters, as opposed to pure boxers e.g Lamotta, Basilio, Turpin, Fullmer, Olson.

Does anyone know how he fared against pure boxers, as I haven't seen any footage of him fighting fighters in this mould and was wondering how he would fight and what it would look like. The only fighter I can really think of would be Kid Gavilan, has anyone seen any footage of this fight? I ask this question as I just wonder how he would box against a slick boxer. Does anyone know of any other fighters who he fought in this mould/ or have any footage?

Thanks.

He owned everyone hence the fact he had a 179-1 record upto his downfall.

mickey malone
06-21-2009, 09:37 AM
From most of the footage I have seen of SRR, it seems that most of his opponents were come forward aggressive brawlers or just strong fighters, as opposed to pure boxers e.g Lamotta, Basilio, Turpin, Fullmer, Olson.

Does anyone know how he fared against pure boxers, as I haven't seen any footage of him fighting fighters in this mould and was wondering how he would fight and what it would look like. The only fighter I can really think of would be Kid Gavilan, has anyone seen any footage of this fight? I ask this question as I just wonder how he would box against a slick boxer. Does anyone know of any other fighters who he fought in this mould/ or have any footage?

Thanks.
You do have a point...
The majority of his fights were against non stylist tough guys... He had a reputation of knocking the teeth out of "chew piano wire, piss blood" fighters...
The only two stylists he fought, who immediatelly come to mind are Paul Pender & Joey Maxim, & he didn't fare so well.. Granted, Maxim was a WC L/HW and Pender got in at the right time...
As already mentioned by Oriachim, he owned everyone in the early days, and I'm sure some of those guys were purists (to a degree), But he still never answered your question, and as already said, you DO have a point..
Towards the end of his career, he obviously faded and lost to inferior fighters like Mick Leahy from Ireland....
Summing up.... I'd say inspite of his greatness, he WAS the only REAL stylist of his generation.... Good thread.....

Ziggy Stardust
06-21-2009, 11:24 AM
You do have a point...
The majority of his fights were against non stylist tough guys... He had a reputation of knocking the teeth out of "chew piano wire, piss blood" fighters...
The only two stylists he fought, who immediatelly come to mind are Paul Pender & Joey Maxim, & he didn't fare so well.. Granted, Maxim was a WC L/HW and Pender got in at the right time...
As already mentioned by Oriachim, he owned everyone in the early days, and I'm sure some of those guys were purists (to a degree), But he still never answered your question, and as already said, you DO have a point..
Towards the end of his career, he obviously faded and lost to inferior fighters like Mick Leahy from Ireland....
Summing up.... I'd say inspite of his greatness, he WAS the only REAL stylist of his generation.... Good thread.....

Have to disagree with you there: The afore mentioned Kid Gavilan (whom Robinson beat) was as slick and crafty as they come.

Poet

Richie-G
06-21-2009, 11:40 AM
is there any footage of him against pender or gavilan??

Ziggy Stardust
06-21-2009, 11:46 AM
is there any footage of him against pender or gavilan??

I've seen footage of the first Pender fight. I haven't run across any of the Gavilan fight yet. TheGreatA is the best source for this stuff though: If anyone has it he does.

Poet

Eric Holder
06-21-2009, 12:16 PM
I haven't found any footage of Robinson's fight with Gavilan but from what I've read it was very close and competitive. That must've been a great fight to watch.

mickey malone
06-21-2009, 12:44 PM
Have to disagree with you there: The afore mentioned Kid Gavilan (whom Robinson beat) was as slick and crafty as they come.

Poet
My appologies for overlooking that (there's always something you'll miss)
I tended to overlook his WW achievements, as opposed to what he accomplished at MW & L/HW...
Although patchy, Gavilan WAS a slickster.... That's probably why Robinson had his work cut out... So have I, with non sufferers like your goodself..lol... Regards MM

Obama
06-21-2009, 02:02 PM
Fritzie Zivic vs Sammy Angott:
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Fritzie Zivic vs Freddie Cochrane:
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Zivic is the taller guy in both fights. Robinson beat Zivic twice, also Angott 3 times.

warp1432
06-21-2009, 02:04 PM
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He was past his prime here.

Obama
06-21-2009, 02:06 PM
For the record, Robinson was 20 years into his career and over the hill when he met Pender. That said, I felt he won both fights despite the verdict.

mickey malone
06-21-2009, 04:17 PM
Granted.... But the question is WHO??..... And Pender was one of em....
I'm well aware it was just before burning out at middle...
Even Terry Downes kicked his arse around this time, & he prefered smoking cigars out of a pipe while decking a pint of wine.....

Obama
06-21-2009, 04:30 PM
Granted.... But the question is WHO??.....

Did you not see the videos I posted of Fritzie Zivic? If that's not a boxer I don't know what is.

D-MiZe
06-21-2009, 04:32 PM
Put it this way. I don't think SRR wouldn't be as 'great' if he was fighting when Hagler, Hearns, SRL and Duran were.

But that's just my opinion.

mickey malone
06-21-2009, 06:35 PM
Did you not see the videos I posted of Fritzie Zivic? If that's not a boxer I don't know what is.
Of course... I'm a big fan of the 'dirty bastard'
But we're talking SRR... Not Henry Armstrong....
That was (in my opinion, his best boxing performance)
Against SRR, he got totally owned by having his rough house tactics cleverly negated, thus proving he was NOT a slickster... Zivic was a rough house fighter who mixed it and lost (on a few occasions) to Jake LaMotta (as RAW as you can get)
These were NOT boxing matches for the purist..
Surely, I don't have to read out the scores between LaMotta & Robinson..
It would only prove my point.....

Obama
06-21-2009, 07:33 PM
Of course... I'm a big fan of the 'dirty bastard'
But we're talking SRR... Not Henry Armstrong....
That was (in my opinion, his best boxing performance)
Against SRR, he got totally owned by having his rough house tactics cleverly negated, thus proving he was NOT a slickster... Zivic was a rough house fighter who mixed it and lost (on a few occasions) to Jake LaMotta (as RAW as you can get)
These were NOT boxing matches for the purist..
Surely, I don't have to read out the scores between LaMotta & Robinson..
It would only prove my point.....

1) You don't have to be slick to be a good boxer. Few (if any) of the great Mexican boxers were slick. Sanchez, Chavez, De La Hoya, Morales, Barrera, Marquez, none of these guys were slick. Sanchez comes the closest.

2) SRR from his own mouth said Zivic gave him his hardest fights.

3) LaMotta was a Middleweight, and he didn't get to Zivic until mid 1943, after he was already past his prime. The first 3 fights with LaMotta also ended in split decision. Not to mention, LaMotta also beat other BOXERS besides Robinson and Zivic.

Southpaw16BF
06-21-2009, 07:40 PM
1) You don't have to be slick to be a good boxer. Few (if any) of the great Mexican boxers were slick. Sanchez, Chavez, De La Hoya, Morales, Barrera, Marquez, none of these guys were slick. Sanchez comes the closest.

2) SRR from his own mouth said Zivic gave him his hardest fights.

3) LaMotta was a Middleweight, and he didn't get to Zivic until mid 1943, after he was already past his prime. The first 3 fights with LaMotta also ended in split decision. Not to mention, LaMotta also beat other BOXERS besides Robinson and Zivic.

Lamotta also defeated Holman Williams, one of the best defensive boxers of that era, Williams was a very slick and clever customer, who held a wins over Archie Moore, Charley Burley and Lloyd Marshall. Lamotta defeated him on points a UD verdict in 1946.

Eddie Futch once said that he would rather watch Williams shadow box than watch other's fight.

Most posters just seem to think Lamotta was a outright slugger, but he had a good boxing brain, and pretty sound head movemnt when he wanted to. And he beat some of the best boxers of his era.

Obama
06-21-2009, 07:49 PM
Lamotta also defeated Holman Williams, one of the best defensive boxers of that era, Williams was a very slick and clever customer, who held a wins over Archie Moore, Charley Burley and Lloyd Marshall. Lamotta defeated him on points a UD verdict in 1946.

Eddie Futch once said that he would rather watch Williams shadow box than watch other's fight.

Most posters just seem to think Lamotta was a outright slugger, but he had a good boxing brain, and pretty sound head movemnt when he wanted to. And he beat some of the best boxers of his era.

In all fairness Holman Williams was over the hill when LaMotta beat him. He stopped being really good in the early 40s. Primed in the 30s.

Southpaw16BF
06-21-2009, 07:53 PM
Holman Williams is very underrated round here...........

Williams was very skilled and great defensively, the late great Eddie Futch once said ''He would rather watch Williams shadow box that watch most other fighters in the ring''

I always find Lamotta's win over Williams is a underrated win, it also a underrated win for Marcel Cerdan.

When it came to style Holman Williams was a talent so far ahead of his contemporaries that stable-mate Eddie Futch once said that he would rather watch Williams shadow box that watch most other fighters in the ring. Essentially a product of the Detroit boxing gyms, where he trained with Joe Louis and Futch, Holman Williams was one of the great crop of black fighters that battled in the 1930's and 1940's. One look at his record will show that this slick boxing defensive wizard fought the best welterweights, middleweights and even light-heavyweights around at the time. Conspicuous by their absence however, as on most other records of the standout black ring men of the day, are meetings with big name white fighters.

Holman Williams opposed Cerdan and LaMotta only after he had been a professional fighter for close to fourteen years, losing to both of them on points. The only fighter to beat him consistently while in his prime was the largely ignored Louis 'Cocoa' Kid who beat Williams eight times while losing only three decisions.

Other great black fighters that opposed Holman Williams were Charley Burley, Jack Chase, Lloyd Marshall, Kid Tunero, Eddie Booker, Joe Carter, Bert Lytell, Aaron Wade and Archie Moore. Practically every one of these men was avoided by the higher ranked white fighters of the day, (and were mostly avoided by a certain Ray Robinson). All of these guys had to fight amongst themselves opposing each other on a regular basis just to get a payday. Williams fought the great Charley Burley seven times with three wins apiece and one no decision, (though it has been said that they fought each other more than twenty times all over the United States in cash fights), Burley was one of only three fighter to stop Williams.

Besides his great talent one barrier to Williams' quest for a title may have been that Joe Louis managed him for a time, though largely ineffectively. A great asset in the gym due to his marvelous boxing skills and great sense of humor. Holman was liked by everyone he met and was a credit to the sport. After his retirement he helped in the development of young fighters in Akron, Ohio, assisting Lee Thornton. When Thornton opened the Club Wonder, Williams helped out as a weekend maintenance man. One weekend, while asleep in the club he was killed in a fire that engulfed the club.

Pictures Of Williams...........
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/09MP4mM4T77bZ/610x.jpg

http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/thumb/7/79/WilliamsHol2.jpg/250px-WilliamsHol2.jpg

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/williams-holman-2.jpg

Southpaw16BF
06-21-2009, 07:58 PM
In all fairness Holman Williams was over the hill when LaMotta beat him. He stopped being really good in the early 40s. Primed in the 30s.

Williams had seen better days no dout, but the fight before Lamotta he had took a prime Marcel Cerdan 10 hard fought rounds, in a fight were Cerdan didnt have it all his own way. And also in the year 46 Williams had beat a young Bob Satterfield.

So yes Williams had seen much better days, but he still was a pretty capable fighter, and was still dangerous as I have just proved. And Lamotta got a UD victory over him.

Obama
06-21-2009, 08:07 PM
Williams had seen better days no dout, but the fight before Lamotta he had took a prime Marcel Cerdan 10 hard fought rounds, in a fight were Cerdan didnt have it all his own way. And also in the year 46 Williams had beat a young Bob Satterfield.

So yes Williams had seen much better days, but he still was a pretty capable fighter, and was still dangerous as I have just proved. And Lamotta got a UD victory over him.

No doubt Williams was the real deal. When people tell me Roy Jones Jr. was the greatest, I always respond he's not even the greatest fighter out of Pensacola. ;)

mickey malone
06-22-2009, 07:19 AM
1) You don't have to be slick to be a good boxer. Few (if any) of the great Mexican boxers were slick. Sanchez, Chavez, De La Hoya, Morales, Barrera, Marquez, none of these guys were slick. Sanchez comes the closest.

2) SRR from his own mouth said Zivic gave him his hardest fights.

3) LaMotta was a Middleweight, and he didn't get to Zivic until mid 1943, after he was already past his prime. The first 3 fights with LaMotta also ended in split decision. Not to mention, LaMotta also beat other BOXERS besides Robinson and Zivic.
So we both agree he (Zivic) was pretty darn good then.....