View Full Version : Should Marciano's record have been 48-1?


number6
06-13-2009, 12:09 PM
I read a book recently called 'Boxings hall of shame'. In a section of the book it mentions a fight between Rocky Marciano and Englands Don ****ell.

According to the book it indicates that Macriano was fighting so dirty(low blows,hitting after the bell and headbutts) that he could have been disqualified 9 times over.

I was just wondering if anyone on here has watched the fight, if so whats your take on it?

Should he have been disqualified?

TheGreatA
06-13-2009, 12:12 PM
No but he should have probably lost a decision to Tiger Ted Lowry. There was also controversy about the first Roland LaStarza fight.

Marcino also had his pro debut while he was still fighting in the amateurs, and lost to Coley Wallace in a Golden Gloves tournament.

number6
06-13-2009, 12:16 PM
No but he should have probably lost a decision to Tiger Ted Lowry. There was also controversy about the first Roland LaStarza fight.

Marcino also had his pro debut while he was still fighting in the amateurs, and lost to Coley Wallace in a Golden Gloves tournament.

Did he fight under a different name at somepoint aswell, im sure ive read it somewhere.

D-MiZe
06-13-2009, 12:17 PM
He had some links to the mafia, which is why he never lost.

portuge puncher
06-13-2009, 12:37 PM
He had some links to the mafia, which is why he never lost.

how the **** do you know,

you know this for 100% huh?

lol

TheGreatA
06-13-2009, 12:48 PM
Did he fight under a different name at somepoint aswell, im sure ive read it somewhere.

He used the name Rocky Mack for his pro debut.

QUID
06-13-2009, 12:53 PM
Haters!

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o95/bartlett_album/rocky.jpg

number6
06-13-2009, 12:58 PM
Haters!

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o95/bartlett_album/rocky.jpg

Your miles out, i read something in a book and asked if anyone has seen the fight to confirm if its true or bull**** because ive not seen the fight.

Have you seen it?

TheGreatA
06-13-2009, 01:21 PM
Your miles out, i read something in a book and asked if anyone has seen the fight to confirm if its true or bull**** because ive not seen the fight.

Have you seen it?

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Kid McCoy
06-13-2009, 01:41 PM
There were certainly some blatant fouls in there, including striking ****ell when he was on the deck.

This sort of thing has always been very ambiguous in boxing. As they say, you cheat to the tolerance of the referee. And what cheating is acceptable and what is not? How about Hopkins and Holyfield using their head almost as often as their fists, or Ali grabbing and holding his opponent's neck, or Foreman pushing his opponents to create punching room, or Hatton's wrestling/mauling tactics? All "cheats" to varying degrees, but none of those guys were ever disqualified.

If we're looking at fights Marciano may have actually lost, I'd say the first LaStarza and Lowry fights are a better bet. Unfortunately, I don't know whether film of those two is extant so we may never know for sure.

number6
06-13-2009, 01:45 PM
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It looks like a rough and sloppy fight, but ive seen nothing in the clip that would warrent a dq.

LondonRingRules
06-13-2009, 02:35 PM
I read a book recently called 'Boxings hall of shame'. In a section of the book it mentions a fight between Rocky Marciano and Englands Don ****ell.

According to the book it indicates that Macriano was fighting so dirty(low blows,hitting after the bell and headbutts) that he could have been disqualified 9 times over.

** You read a pretty dire book, eh? Maybe Rocky should be 40-9 if he could've been DQed 9x, eh?

Me, I didn't see that many fouls in the lopsided beating that should've been stopped a couple rounds earlier.

For my money, I'd prefer to see Ali properly go to 51-11 to reflect what should've been a DQ for Dundee tampering with the gloves in Cooper 1, egregious scoring errors in the last two Norton fights, a DQ for failure to fight against Young, and a DQ for Dundee's tampering with the ropes against Foreman.

I could live with his remaining controversies.........:yeah:

GJC
06-13-2009, 02:44 PM
No but he should have probably lost a decision to Tiger Ted Lowry. There was also controversy about the first Roland LaStarza fight.

Marcino also had his pro debut while he was still fighting in the amateurs, and lost to Coley Wallace in a Golden Gloves tournament.
Hmmm think the 1st Lowry fight has got closer and closer over the years, think he just had trouble with Lowry is all and not many lasted the distance with him so an urban myth has sort of started up on that one.
La Starza 1 was a close fight which as many thought La Starza won as Marciano but wasn't a cut and dried robbery.

GJC
06-13-2009, 02:48 PM
He had some links to the mafia, which is why he never lost.
This one keeps coming up with zero proof to be honest.
Pretty much most boxers of that and other eras know a lot of wise guys as wise guys like boxing, an Italian HW champion is probably going to be feted more but thats about it. I think the only Marciano fight that even had a whiff about it was Walcott 2 any others why would a guy take the kind of beatings some took if the were going to throw the fight? Not logical.

Slimey Limey
06-13-2009, 02:51 PM
Go cry about it forever. He never lost and will forever go down in the history books as 49-0.

Kid McCoy
06-13-2009, 03:01 PM
Hmmm think the 1st Lowry fight has got closer and closer over the years, think he just had trouble with Lowry is all and not many lasted the distance with him so an urban myth has sort of started up on that one.
La Starza 1 was a close fight which as many thought La Starza won as Marciano but wasn't a cut and dried robbery.

In an interview a few years back Lowry said he thought won the first fight. That doesn't necessarily mean he did though, since most boxers reckon they won decisions they lost, but he did admit the decision in the rematch was just.

Have you seen the first LaStarza fight? I didn't know whether there was even available film of it. It would have been a draw under modern scoring. The cards were 1-1-1 and Marciano won on a supplemental points system.

#1Assassin
06-13-2009, 03:05 PM
Go cry about it forever. He never lost and will forever go down in the history books as 49-0.

never beat a quality HW in his prime eighter.. just saying..

TheGreatA
06-13-2009, 03:34 PM
Hmmm think the 1st Lowry fight has got closer and closer over the years, think he just had trouble with Lowry is all and not many lasted the distance with him so an urban myth has sort of started up on that one.
La Starza 1 was a close fight which as many thought La Starza won as Marciano but wasn't a cut and dried robbery.

The local newspapers scored the fight for Ted Lowry and many of the ringside viewers felt Lowry had won the bout.

I can't say anything for sure because I never saw the fight myself and there's no film of it but based on everything I've read, the decision should have probably gone to Ted Lowry. I've never heard anything opposing this view though, I'd be interested if you have anything to say about it.

TheGreatA
06-13-2009, 03:47 PM
Newspaper report:

"MARCIANO GETS DECISION OVER LOWRY

ROCKY'S SHOWING IS WEAK AGAINST VETERAN BOXER

Brockton Boy Just Weathers Early Storm, The Foe's Attacks Slackens

There were strange developments and questions left unanswered as Rocky Marciano, undefeated young Brockton heavyweight, was awarded a unanimous decision over Tiger Ted Lowry of New Haven in their 10-rounder at the Auditorium last night. Marciano, in the first place, did not win the fight, as this observer saw it. This reporter gave it to Lowry, 6 rounds to 4, but this wasn't the dilemma - hardly. There were some questions as to whether Lowry, who came close to knocking out Marciano in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds, deliberately had bogged in his attack after the 4th stanza. Many in the crowd felt he had. As it was, the referee, Ben Maculan, warned Lowry three times to open up. In the 5th, he bellowed, "Open up, or I'll toss you out" and twice similiarly threatened him in the 7th. If Lowry had not punched with the vigor he did in the first four stanzas, this observer unhesitantly would say that Lowry intentionally slowed up. But Lowry punched as though bent on making a kill in the early stages. The wonder of it was that Marciano withstood the punishment he took. Lowry stung him with two terrific rights in the 1st. He rocked him with two vicious uppercuts in the 2nd, either of which would have finished a less durable boxer. And in the 4th, Lowry had Marciano in such a bad way that it appeared it would be only a matter of time before he would complete his kill.

Lowry stopped using his uppercut after the 4th, however. He went into a shell and only occasionally landed power shots. He seemed to be carrying Marciano. The crowd booed and Maculan, not liking what he saw, stormed at Lowry, who responded with a passive look. It may have been that Lowry, nine year ring veteran, tired. It may have been that he weakened from Marciano's unending body attack, but whatever the reason, there was an appreciable decline in his offensive operations in the 2nd half of the fight and it didn't look good to the crowd, nor to this observer.

The bout ended on an exciting note, with Marciano tossing a punch after the bell and Lowry, seemingly aroused, wanting to continue. The referee stepped in and stopped the overtime hostilities. Lowry came close to flattening Rocky just before the finish with a right hook. Marciano rocked, but regained his balance. Lowry all but shattered the aura of invincibility that has been built around Marciano by the manner in which he pelted him in the early stanzas. The bout, though it probably will do Marciano much good, showed that he isn't ready for major opoosition. Marciano, who had won 19 of his previous 20 fights on knockouts, did not have his punch last night. Lowry took the steam out of him with his early blitz. There were times when Rocky merely pawed at his opponent and he carried a worried look after the 2nd round. He was much busier of the two however, particularily after the 4th. He landed three punches to Lowry's one from the 5th round on, concentrating wholly on the body. His aggressiveness and constant punching probably was what caught the eye of the three officials, but his thrusts lacked sting to be effective. Many should have been discounted altogether."

- The Providence Journal, Oct 11th, 1949

TheGreatA
06-13-2009, 03:50 PM
What Lowry himself had to say about it:

***8220;I still think I won the first fight and so do a lot of other people,***8221; said Lowry recently. ***8220;But you learn to take the good with the bad. His manager, Al Weill, was very connected. I think that helped him a bit.***8221;

Book review:

Lowry never outright says he dumped the fight intentionally -- he says he thinks he won. But he allows the introduction by Sharon Napolitano to cite speculation that Lowry was told he'd be guaranteed a second fight with rising contender Marciano if he didn't win the first time. "Lowry couldn't have won that fight, no matter what happened," one boxing official is quoted, anonymously, as saying.

http://bwundercard.blogspot.com/2007/06/everybody-knows-that-rocky-marciano.html

CCobra
06-13-2009, 04:16 PM
** You read a pretty dire book, eh? Maybe Rocky should be 40-9 if he could've been DQed 9x, eh?

Me, I didn't see that many fouls in the lopsided beating that should've been stopped a couple rounds earlier.

For my money, I'd prefer to see Ali properly go to 51-11 to reflect what should've been a DQ for Dundee tampering with the gloves in Cooper 1, egregious scoring errors in the last two Norton fights, a DQ for failure to fight against Young, and a DQ for Dundee's tampering with the ropes against Foreman.

I could live with his remaining controversies.........:yeah:

I definitely agree with this. Ali should have lost three times to Norton to make his record 54-7, a loss against Cooper to lower it to 53-8 and he also did not deserve the decision against Jimmy Young, who was robbed blind.

Ali should have been 52-9.

GJC
06-13-2009, 04:19 PM
Newspaper report:

"MARCIANO GETS DECISION OVER LOWRY

ROCKY'S SHOWING IS WEAK AGAINST VETERAN BOXER

Brockton Boy Just Weathers Early Storm, The Foe's Attacks Slackens

There were strange developments and questions left unanswered as Rocky Marciano, undefeated young Brockton heavyweight, was awarded a unanimous decision over Tiger Ted Lowry of New Haven in their 10-rounder at the Auditorium last night. Marciano, in the first place, did not win the fight, as this observer saw it. This reporter gave it to Lowry, 6 rounds to 4, but this wasn't the dilemma - hardly. There were some questions as to whether Lowry, who came close to knocking out Marciano in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds, deliberately had bogged in his attack after the 4th stanza. Many in the crowd felt he had. As it was, the referee, Ben Maculan, warned Lowry three times to open up. In the 5th, he bellowed, "Open up, or I'll toss you out" and twice similiarly threatened him in the 7th. If Lowry had not punched with the vigor he did in the first four stanzas, this observer unhesitantly would say that Lowry intentionally slowed up. But Lowry punched as though bent on making a kill in the early stages. The wonder of it was that Marciano withstood the punishment he took. Lowry stung him with two terrific rights in the 1st. He rocked him with two vicious uppercuts in the 2nd, either of which would have finished a less durable boxer. And in the 4th, Lowry had Marciano in such a bad way that it appeared it would be only a matter of time before he would complete his kill.

Lowry stopped using his uppercut after the 4th, however. He went into a shell and only occasionally landed power shots. He seemed to be carrying Marciano. The crowd booed and Maculan, not liking what he saw, stormed at Lowry, who responded with a passive look. It may have been that Lowry, nine year ring veteran, tired. It may have been that he weakened from Marciano's unending body attack, but whatever the reason, there was an appreciable decline in his offensive operations in the 2nd half of the fight and it didn't look good to the crowd, nor to this observer.

The bout ended on an exciting note, with Marciano tossing a punch after the bell and Lowry, seemingly aroused, wanting to continue. The referee stepped in and stopped the overtime hostilities. Lowry came close to flattening Rocky just before the finish with a right hook. Marciano rocked, but regained his balance. Lowry all but shattered the aura of invincibility that has been built around Marciano by the manner in which he pelted him in the early stanzas. The bout, though it probably will do Marciano much good, showed that he isn't ready for major opoosition. Marciano, who had won 19 of his previous 20 fights on knockouts, did not have his punch last night. Lowry took the steam out of him with his early blitz. There were times when Rocky merely pawed at his opponent and he carried a worried look after the 2nd round. He was much busier of the two however, particularily after the 4th. He landed three punches to Lowry's one from the 5th round on, concentrating wholly on the body. His aggressiveness and constant punching probably was what caught the eye of the three officials, but his thrusts lacked sting to be effective. Many should have been discounted altogether."

- The Providence Journal, Oct 11th, 1949
I'm not as good a researcher as yourself by some margin. Was around and following boxing at that time and my memory of the reports of the fight at the time (to be honest have no memory of seeing a film at that time of either of the Lowry fights or La Starza 1) was that Lowry was just a little too cute to allow himself to be caught by a poor Marciano. Like I say not as good a proof as you have produced just an old man's probably fading memory :)
Will say though reading that report it doesn't ring particularily true that Lowry not a noted big puncher in the HW division looked like knocking Marciano out in rounds 2,3 and 4.

Ziggy Stardust
06-13-2009, 04:23 PM
I'm not as good a researcher as yourself by some margin. Was around and following boxing at that time and my memory of the reports of the fight at the time (to be honest have no memory of seeing a film at that time of either of the Lowry fights or La Starza 1) was that Lowry was just a little too cute to allow himself to be caught by a poor Marciano. Like I say not as good a proof as you have produced just an old man's probably fading memory :)
Will say though reading that report it doesn't ring particularily true that Lowry not a noted big puncher in the HW division looked like knocking Marciano out in rounds 2,3 and 4.

I have to admit I hadn't thought of the Lowery fight. The first La Starza fight I knew many thought La Starza had won but that it had been a close fight that could have gone either way so no robbery there.

Poet

TheGreatA
06-13-2009, 05:05 PM
I definitely agree with this. Ali should have lost three times to Norton to make his record 54-7, a loss against Cooper to lower it to 53-8 and he also did not deserve the decision against Jimmy Young, who was robbed blind.

Ali should have been 52-9.

The whole Cooper thing is a myth. Ali/Clay won fair.

I'm not as good a researcher as yourself by some margin. Was around and following boxing at that time and my memory of the reports of the fight at the time (to be honest have no memory of seeing a film at that time of either of the Lowry fights or La Starza 1) was that Lowry was just a little too cute to allow himself to be caught by a poor Marciano. Like I say not as good a proof as you have produced just an old man's probably fading memory
Will say though reading that report it doesn't ring particularily true that Lowry not a noted big puncher in the HW division looked like knocking Marciano out in rounds 2,3 and 4.

I believe the report is legit, perhaps exaggerated. Lowry was not a puncher and he was also much smaller than Marciano but according to Lowry's own words, Marciano's then wildly aggressive style played right into his hands and he had no trouble finding Marciano with his punches, particularly uppercuts.

He did have a fair KO record, 43 knockouts out of 67 wins.

The rematch was supposedly a decisive win for Marciano but Lowry once again went the distance.

Again, nothing can be said for sure but it's one of the things that is going to be brought up whenever anyone discusses Marciano's undefeated record. I personally don't think being undefeated necessarily means anything, it's about who you fought and beaten.

Despite recent criticism, Marciano did prove himself a worthy champion against the best of his time. That, to me, is more meaningful than his 49-0 record.

GJC
06-13-2009, 08:45 PM
The whole Cooper thing is a myth. Ali/Clay won fair.



I believe the report is legit, perhaps exaggerated. Lowry was not a puncher and he was also much smaller than Marciano but according to Lowry's own words, Marciano's then wildly aggressive style played right into his hands and he had no trouble finding Marciano with his punches, particularly uppercuts.

He did have a fair KO record, 43 knockouts out of 67 wins.

The rematch was supposedly a decisive win for Marciano but Lowry once again went the distance.

Again, nothing can be said for sure but it's one of the things that is going to be brought up whenever anyone discusses Marciano's undefeated record. I personally don't think being undefeated necessarily means anything, it's about who you fought and beaten.

Despite recent criticism, Marciano did prove himself a worthy champion against the best of his time. That, to me, is more meaningful than his 49-0 record.
Did just check a Marciano biography I have and it says that Marciano kept battering his body but couldn't get Lowry's defense down. But biographys by their nature arn't always terribly unbiased to be fair. It also says that after the 2nd fight Marciano said they could have fought a 100 times and he would never have knocked out Lowry as his couldn't fathom his style.
Considering only 6 men lasted the distance with Marciano quite a feat of Lowry's to go the distance twice.
As you rightly say defeated or undefeated he was a worthy champion in his era and deserves respect.

number6
06-14-2009, 07:38 AM
** You read a pretty dire book, eh? Maybe Rocky should be 40-9 if he could've been DQed 9x, eh?

Me, I didn't see that many fouls in the lopsided beating that should've been stopped a couple rounds earlier.

For my money, I'd prefer to see Ali properly go to 51-11 to reflect what should've been a DQ for Dundee tampering with the gloves in Cooper 1, egregious scoring errors in the last two Norton fights, a DQ for failure to fight against Young, and a DQ for Dundee's tampering with the ropes against Foreman.

I could live with his remaining controversies.........:yeah:

Could have been dq'ed 9 times over in that fight, not dq'ed in 9 different fights.