View Full Version : 10 Greatest Light Heavyweights


CCobra
05-30-2009, 09:48 AM
I've read quite a few cringeworthy lists in recent years. Many of them from supposed credible historians of the sport. In order to get myself posting on this forum I thought I'd throw up my personal list of the greatest Light Heavyweights to have ever graced the historical sport of Boxing. I'm usually the sort of person who goes into detail with this sort of thing but for now I'm going to just throw up my top 10 list and perhaps go into to detail about my selections if called out on any of the specific choices.

10. Maxie Rosenbloom
9. Billy Conn
8. Jimmy Bivins
7. Harold Johnson
6. Gene Tunney
5. Tommy Loughran
4. Michael Spinks
3. Bob Foster
2. Archie Moore
1. Ezzard Charles

If anybody has any queries with regards to my list then feel free to question me and I'll gladly explain my choice(s).

portuge puncher
05-30-2009, 10:12 AM
10. dick tiger
9. virgil hill
8. Tommy Loughran
7. Michael Spinks
6. roy jones
5. Jose Torres
4. Battling Levinsky
3. ezzard charels
2. bob foster
1. archie moore

TheGreatA
05-30-2009, 10:35 AM
I've read quite a few cringeworthy lists in recent years. Many of them from supposed credible historians of the sport. In order to get myself posting on this forum I thought I'd throw up my personal list of the greatest Light Heavyweights to have ever graced the historical sport of Boxing. I'm usually the sort of person who goes into detail with this sort of thing but for now I'm going to just throw up my top 10 list and perhaps go into to detail about my selections if called out on any of the specific choices.

10. Maxie Rosenbloom
9. Billy Conn
8. Jimmy Bivins7. Yolande Pompey
6. Gene Tunney
5. Tommy Loughran
4. Michael Spinks
3. Bob Foster
2. Archie Moore
1. Ezzard Charles

If anybody has any queries with regards to my list then feel free to question me and I'll gladly explain my choice(s).

It's a good list otherwise but why would you have Yolande Pompey as number 7? Is that a mistake?

Panamaniac
05-30-2009, 02:29 PM
In no particular order...

Michael Spinks
Bob Foster
Roy Jones, Jr.
Ezzard Charles
Matthew Saad Muhammad
Archie Moore
Dick Tiger
Gene Tunney
Bob Fitzsimmons
Joey Maxim

BattlingNelson
05-30-2009, 03:47 PM
I've read quite a few cringeworthy lists in recent years. Many of them from supposed credible historians of the sport. In order to get myself posting on this forum I thought I'd throw up my personal list of the greatest Light Heavyweights to have ever graced the historical sport of Boxing. I'm usually the sort of person who goes into detail with this sort of thing but for now I'm going to just throw up my top 10 list and perhaps go into to detail about my selections if called out on any of the specific choices.

10. Maxie Rosenbloom
9. Billy Conn
8. Jimmy Bivins7. Yolande Pompey
6. Gene Tunney
5. Tommy Loughran
4. Michael Spinks
3. Bob Foster
2. Archie Moore
1. Ezzard Charles

If anybody has any queries with regards to my list then feel free to question me and I'll gladly explain my choice(s).
On what do you base your no. 1 choice?

Charles might have had the better of Archie Moore head-to-head, but as for accomplishments in the division I would rate Moore on top and I probably wouldn't even have Charles in my top 5.

TheGreatA
05-30-2009, 03:55 PM
On what do you base your no. 1 choice?

Charles might have had the better of Archie Moore head-to-head, but as for accomplishments in the division I would rate Moore on top and I probably wouldn't even have Charles in my top 5.

Charles was a great light heavyweight in my opinion even though he never won the title (then again he was never given a shot either).

Aside from Moore, he had wins over Joey Maxim, Lloyd Marshall and Jimmy Bivins at light heavyweight. He looks brilliant on film in the rematch against Marshall, not so much against Bivins.

I do rate Moore over Charles at light heavyweight because of his amazing longevity. I also feel that he would have beaten Charles in the mid 50's at HW but that's just me.

Southpaw16BF
05-30-2009, 04:00 PM
On what do you base your no. 1 choice?

Charles might have had the better of Archie Moore head-to-head, but as for accomplishments in the division I would rate Moore on top and I probably wouldn't even have Charles in my top 5.

I think you may be a bit off here Bat. Charles not even top 5? Charles resume of wins at 175 could be the best ever. Charles could of accomplished alot more if he had been given his chance at the Title.

Many historians rank him as the best light heavyweight in history. Despite the fact that he was never able to gain a shot at the world light heavyweight title.

Ezzard Charles defeated every light heavyweight he faced in an era of great fighters. More amazingly, from 1946 until mid-1951, Charles participated in 40 bouts, and would only lose once. Unable to secure a title shot as a light heavyweight.

Charles defeated Moore 3 times, he was virtually the only fighter Moore cound't defeat at 175. Aswell as beating Moore x3 times at 175, he also defeated Lloyd Marshallx2 , Oakland Billy Smithx2, Jimmy Bivinsx3, Elmer Ray, and Joey Maxim.

In my personal opinion Charles ranks as number ##1 LHW of all time, but I have no arugment if you have Archie Moorie number 1, but not even to have Charles in your top 5 LHW's of all time, is shocking to say the least. Especailly as he beat you number #1 choice 3 times at LHW in his peak.

Southpaw16BF
05-30-2009, 04:02 PM
Ezzard Charles 2 Part Article
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/EzzardCharles-77.jpg
Greatness is a word used too often in boxing. For instance, Corrales vs. Castillo was a great fight, but are Corrales and Castillo great fighters? In my opinion, they showed elements of greatness in their epic war, but the true test of greatness entails that a fighter puts up great performances against great fighters over a long period of time. It remains to be seen how long Corrales and Castillo will last in this game, and whether either can be appropriately deemed great fighters by the end of their careers.

Muhammad Ali crowned himself “The Greatest” early in his career, and he proved it over the long haul. He was the first three-time heavyweight champion, and defeated the best of heavyweights of the 1960s and 1970s in some of the most famous bouts in history.

Ali also met the best heavyweight of the 1980s: Larry Holmes. Holmes was a former sparring partner for Ali, and it was a sad September night when the shell of Ali was dominated by Holmes. From that time on, Larry Holmes became a great fighter as well, but he suffered from a syndrome first manifested thirty years before Holmes defeated Ali: The Ezzard Charles Syndrome.

When Ezzard Charles easily outboxed Joe Louis for the heavyweight crown in 1950, he was almost never forgiven for it. It simply didn’t matter how beautifully Charles feinted, countered, slipped, and jabbed. What mattered is that the public wanted a dynamic champion who transcended the sport, and Charles was too subtle and pure a sweet scientist to capture the public’s imagination.

Born into poverty in Georgia on July 7, 1921, Charles’ family moved to Cincinnati, Ohio when he was a youngster. Ezzard Charles was almost a natural born fighter. As a teenager, Charles took up boxing and was undefeated as an amateur with a record of 42-0.

Charles turned pro on March 15, 1940 as a middleweight with a third round knockout of Medley Johnson in Middletown, Pennsylvania. Fourteen months later, Charles had already compiled a record of 21-0 with 15 KOs.

Like many of fighters of the 1940s, Charles was thrown in against experienced and accomplished opposition early in his career. In Charles’ twenty-second pro fight, he was matched with former middleweight champion Ken Overlin. Overlin was a veteran of 140 pro fights and fought a who’s who of the middleweight division since the 1930s. He outpointed the nineteen-year-old Charles over ten rounds in Charles’ hometown of Cincinnati.

After losing to Overlin, Charles jumped right back into the fray. A few months after losing to Overlin, Charles won a ten round decision over former champion Teddy Yarosz, and then knocked out light heavyweight contender Anton Christoforidis on January 12, 1941. Six months before being knocked out by Charles, Christoforidis lost a fifteen round decision to future undisputed light heavyweight champion Gus Lesnevich.

Charles reputation was growing, and even though he was experiencing difficulty making the 160 pound limit, some were wondering if the precocious star would land a title shot in the near future.

In 1942, all questions about Charles’ prowess were answered. The Cincinnati Cobra was matched in back-to-back bouts with the great Charley Burley. Burley was feared, avoided, and revered during his career. Burley made a habit of beating bigger men, and he was the pure acid test for the young superstar.

Both of the Burley vs. Charles bouts occurred in Burley’s hometown of Pittsburgh. The first bout occurred on May 25, 1942.

The second bout was on June 29, 1942. Burley was a 3½ to 1 favorite for the first bout. The twenty-four-year-old Burley was a veteran of almost sixty fights at the time they met, and was on a twenty bout winning streak. Charles scaled 161½ pounds, and Burley weighed 155. The bout occurred on the undercard of Fritzie Zivic’s ruthless tenth round stoppage of former lightweight champion Lew Jenkins.

Charles easily defeated Burley in the first bout. In his great book, Charley Burley: The Life and Hard Times of an Uncrowned Champion, Allen Rosenfeld gives Pittsburgh Press reporter Bill McElwain’s account of the action:

“Charles started out by staggering Burley with a right to the mouth in the opening session, and although the second was even, Burley didn’t take a round until the fifth. Charles smashed home two hard left hooks in the bristling fourth that had Burley hanging on.

In the fifth and six (sic) Burley went to work and cut inside of his opponent’s mouth, but was just about finished after that. Ezzard came back to belt Burley dizzy with right across (sic) and a right uppercut in the seventh, and Charley was in plenty of trouble.

“Burley went out for the knockout in the tenth but ran into a right hook that dropped him to one knee. Charles had started another punch and couldn’t stop it before striking Burley while he was on the way to the canvas. Burley got up at three but the fight was over then.”

Charles won a huge ovation from Burley’s hometown crowd. Rosenfeld reported that Charles was elevated to the number three slot in the middleweight rankings while Burley dropped to fourth.

Southpaw16BF
05-30-2009, 04:03 PM
for the second bout, charles scaled 160, and burley came in at 151. The odds for the bout were about even. Just six days before the rematch, burley won a ten round decision over the slick and crafty holman williams in cincinnati. Nevertheless, burley announced that he was in superb condition, and would concentrate on boxing charles instead of trying to slug with him this time around. Rosenfeld gives sun telegraph reporter jimmy miller’s account of the rematch:

“charles won seven of the 10 rounds and burley managed to win the second and sixth which was the best session of the battle for action. In this round charley, who was told by his manager, tommy o’louglin, to cross his right when charles dropped his left hand, caught the cincinnati bopper with the first punch a smashing right hand to the head. The punch shook up charles, but before burley could make it stick ezzard was back in stride. The opening round was even.”

charles became the number one middleweight contender for a short time thereafter, and actually tried unsuccessfully to secure a title fight with tony zale. Zale, however, ended up serving our country in wwii, and the bout never materialized.

Charles moved to the light heavyweight division in late 1942, and fought three of cleveland’s best light heavyweights in four months. On december 1, 1942 charles distinguished himself with a ten round unanimous decision over joey maxim in maxim’s hometown despite giving away eighteen pounds. Charles dropped a decision to another superb cleveland craftsman, jimmy bivins, in his next bout on january 7, 1943. In his last bout before entering military service, charles was dominated and stopped for the first time in his thirty-eight-bout career when lloyd marshall dropped him eight times in route to an eighth round stoppage.

Charles was inactive in 1944 and 1945 due to wwii. During charles’ wwii stint, rumors circulated that charles flattened billy conn while both were in the army, but charles gentlemanly denied that he and conn ever met in the ring.

Charles returned to the light heavyweight division with a vengeance in 1946.

By all accounts, charles was the best light heavyweight in the world after returning to action. Many historians rank him as the best light heavyweight in history, despite the fact that he was never able to gain a shot at the world light heavyweight title. Over the years, charles’ ranking as the best light heavyweight of all time has been met with skepticism, but his accomplishments are stunning.

Charles avenged his defeat to marshall with two knockout wins in 1946 and 1947. Charles swept three return bouts with jimmy bivins from 1946-1948. In the same time frame, charles dominated archie moore in a three bout series, and knocked him out in their rubber match.

Ezzard charles defeated every light heavyweight he faced in an era of great fighters. More amazingly, from 1946 until mid-1951, charles participated in 40 bouts, and would only lose once. On july 25, 1947 charles gave away twenty pounds in a split decision loss to heavyweight contender elmer “violent” ray. Charles avenged that defeat by knocking ray out in nine rounds the following year.

Unable to secure a title shot as a light heavyweight, charles began campaigning as a heavyweight on a full-time basis in the late 1940s. On june 22, 1949, he decisioned jersey joe walcott for the first time over fifteen rounds for the vacant national boxing association world heavyweight title. Charles would defend the title three times in the next fourteen months before facing joe louis for the undisputed heavyweight title on september 27, 1950 at yankee stadium.

Charles weighed 184½, while louis tipped the scales at 218. Charles easily defeated the slow and aging louis over fifteen methodical rounds. The scorecards read 10-5, 13-2 and 12-3.

Tape of the fight reveals that the scorecards were accurate, but more importantly, charles didn’t win spectacularly. Louis was stunned a few times in the bout, but was never in serious danger. Succeeding the great, but over-the-hill joe louis was a huge accomplishment for a former #1 middleweight contender, but the public was looking for a more colorful, dominating presence in the ring. Like charley burley, ezzard charles was a pure sweet scientist. He was so proficient in the art that the untrained eye couldn’t appreciate the subtle brilliance of his performances. Thus, it was only inevitable that that charles would flirt with obscurity.

Indeed, charles proved to be an unpopular champion. He was variously described as a blown up light heavyweight and a dull fighter. He successfully defended his title four times, but fans actually yearned for yesteryear as charles carefully dissected his challengers.

When charles lost his title in 1951 to the man he previously defeated twice, jersey joe walcott, it marked a more significant moment in boxing history than when charles assumed the throne from louis. Walcott became the oldest man to win the heavyweight title.

After losing the title to walcott, charles unsuccessfully attempted to regain the heavyweight title three times. He lost a fifteen round decision to walcott in 1952. In 1954, charles lost a tough fifteen round decision to rocky marciano, and was stopped in the eighth round by the rock three months later. Even far past his prime, charles gave marciano his toughest fights. He nearly regained the title in their second bout when marciano suffered a severely split nose, and was on the brink of defeat when he stormed back to take charles out in the eighth round.

Like many great champions who go on too long, charles faded into obscurity after his last title shot against marciano. From 1955 until his retirement in 1959, charles would fight twenty four times, and only win ten of those bouts. Indeed, the last four years of charles’ career severely diluted his final record.

Charles’ final ledger reads 96-25-1 (58 kos).

Several years after his retirement, charles became afflicted with lateral sclerosis, and was paralyzed from the waist down. He was inducted into the hall of fame in 1970. Ezzard charles died at the age of 53 in chicago on may 27, 1975.

Ezzard charles is, in my opinion, among the top five fighters of the 1940s and 1950s. This is an especially high compliment, because i believe the sport peaked in these two decades, relative to boxing technique and depth of talent. Charles was the #1 middleweight contender in the early 1940s. He beat all of the best light heavyweights of his era. He dominated two of the greatest fighters of all-time: Charley burley and archie moore. When charles was past his prime, he gave the only undefeated heavyweight champion, rocky marciano, his toughest fights.

One of the best sports writers in history, red smith, took it a step farther. “some day, maybe, the public is going to abandon comparisons with joe louis and accept ezzard charles for what he was---the best fist-fighter of his particular time.”

more intriguing is the notion that charles might’ve held back in some of his most noteworthy bouts. On february 20, 1948 ezzard charles knocked out sam baroudi in the tenth round of their light heavyweight bout in chicago. Baroudi died from injuries sustained in the bout, and many believe charles was overly cautious thereafter. The impact of baroudi’s death on charles’ psyche might explain why he was less than dynamic when he became a heavyweight champion.

Ezzard charles was too great for his own good.

end of article.......

D-MiZe
05-30-2009, 04:07 PM
What about in the last 15 years?

CCobra
05-30-2009, 04:38 PM
On what do you base your no. 1 choice?

Charles might have had the better of Archie Moore head-to-head, but as for accomplishments in the division I would rate Moore on top and I probably wouldn't even have Charles in my top 5.

My basis for number 1 is the resume Charles has at 175. I don't consider championship belts as the be all and end all of a champions reign otherwise I'd have Jones Jr in my top 10.

Charles accomplished a lot in terms of opposition as a 175lber. He beat (I'm only counting the wins at 175lbs and not above) Bivins (x3) Moore (x3), Fitzpatrick (x2), Marshall (x2), Ray, Oakland Billy Smith (x2), Maxim (x2). That resume is as good (if not better) then any LHW in the history of the sport. Even his resume as a Middleweight is impressive due to the fact he holds two victories over one of the greatest uncrowned champions in Charley Burley.

It's a good list otherwise but why would you have Yolande Pompey as number 7? Is that a mistake?

That was actually a mistake. I was narrowing down my top 15 list and I managed to repaste Pompey in. My actual number choice for number 7 is Harold Johnson (Michael Moorer is sitting on the edges of the top 10) and I'll edit that in a little while.

Charles was a great light heavyweight in my opinion even though he never won the title (then again he was never given a shot either).

Aside from Moore, he had wins over Joey Maxim, Lloyd Marshall and Jimmy Bivins at light heavyweight. He looks brilliant on film in the rematch against Marshall, not so much against Bivins.

I do rate Moore over Charles at light heavyweight because of his amazing longevity. I also feel that he would have beaten Charles in the mid 50's at HW but that's just me.

Perhaps he would have beaten Charles at Heavyweight but we don't know what Charles could have accomplished in the 3 years he spent in the military. Moore had three chances to beat Charles at both fighters prime weights and failed to do so.

I think you may be a bit off here Bat. Charles not even top 5? Charles resume of wins at 175 could be the best ever. Charles could of accomplished alot more if he had been given his chance at the Title.

Many historians rank him as the best light heavyweight in history. Despite the fact that he was never able to gain a shot at the world light heavyweight title.

Ezzard Charles defeated every light heavyweight he faced in an era of great fighters. More amazingly, from 1946 until mid-1951, Charles participated in 40 bouts, and would only lose once. Unable to secure a title shot as a light heavyweight.

Charles defeated Moore 3 times, he was virtually the only fighter Moore cound't defeat at 175. Aswell as beating Moore x3 times at 175, he also defeated Lloyd Marshallx2 , Oakland Billy Smithx2, Jimmy Bivinsx3, Elmer Ray, and Joey Maxim.

In my personal opinion Charles ranks as number ##1 LHW of all time, but I have no arugment if you have Archie Moorie number 1, but not even to have Charles in your top 5 LHW's of all time, is shocking to say the least. Especailly as he beat you number #1 choice 3 times at LHW in his peak.

I've seen some bad lists in my time. Some lists ranking Jones Jr as number 1 but failing to give Charles even a mention as he doesn't even make the top 10 of some peoples. It's shocking to think that a fighter as skilled as Charles and with a resume like Charles can't make a top 10.

Southpaw16BF
05-30-2009, 04:49 PM
I've seen some bad lists in my time. Some lists ranking Jones Jr as number 1 but failing to give Charles even a mention as he doesn't even make the top 10 of some peoples. It's shocking to think that a fighter as skilled as Charles and with a resume like Charles can't make a top 10.

I'am shocked that someone wound't even have Charles is there top 5, but to not have him in the top 10 LHW's of all time is just bogus, and the person who write the list, must not no nothing about boxing.

TheGreatA
05-30-2009, 04:57 PM
That was actually a mistake. I was narrowing down my top 15 list and I managed to repaste Pompey in. My actual number choice for number 7 is Harold Johnson (Michael Moorer is sitting on the edges of the top 10) and I'll edit that in a little while.


Harold Johnson is a great pick. I rate him very highly.

He had a respectable record at heavyweight too. Johnson had actually signed to fight a young, raw Sonny Liston in 1956 before injuring his shoulder.

Harold Johnson may have beaten Liston at that point. Imagine how good that win would've looked on his resume with Liston going onto become the fighter he was.

The fight was again about to be made in the 60's when Johnson was older but he would have probably been destroyed by Liston at that point.


Perhaps he would have beaten Charles at Heavyweight but we don't know what Charles could have accomplished in the 3 years he spent in the military. Moore had three chances to beat Charles at both fighters prime weights and failed to do so.

Can't take anything away from Charles, he did win all their meetings, but I feel that their head-to-head results are a bit deceiving, especially because there happens to be no film of these fights. Charles did not outclass Moore in my opinion, despite beating him three times.

The second fight was a close majority decision, the third fight was a back-and-forth contest which seemed to be going Moore's way until Charles came back to KO Moore after being hurt.

I feel that Moore got better as he got older and was at his best during the early 1950's. Charles on the other hand did not age as well and was already used up by his mid 30's.

I believe Charles spent time in the military during 1943-1945. I think it was for the best though since he came back bigger and better, avenging his earlier losses to Marshall and Bivins.

BattlingNelson
05-30-2009, 04:57 PM
I think you may be a bit off here Bat. Charles not even top 5? Charles resume of wins at 175 could be the best ever. Charles could of accomplished alot more if he had been given his chance at the Title.

Many historians rank him as the best light heavyweight in history. Despite the fact that he was never able to gain a shot at the world light heavyweight title.

Ezzard Charles defeated every light heavyweight he faced in an era of great fighters. More amazingly, from 1946 until mid-1951, Charles participated in 40 bouts, and would only lose once. Unable to secure a title shot as a light heavyweight.

Charles defeated Moore 3 times, he was virtually the only fighter Moore cound't defeat at 175. Aswell as beating Moore x3 times at 175, he also defeated Lloyd Marshallx2 , Oakland Billy Smithx2, Jimmy Bivinsx3, Elmer Ray, and Joey Maxim.

In my personal opinion Charles ranks as number ##1 LHW of all time, but I have no arugment if you have Archie Moorie number 1, but not even to have Charles in your top 5 LHW's of all time, is shocking to say the least. Especailly as he beat you number #1 choice 3 times at LHW in his peak.
Thanks for the info. I'm definetely no expert on LHW history. I did say 'probably' not top 5 as you can see.

You (and others) have given some excellent info on Charles accomplishments at LHW so I can see why you guys rate him so high. I'm amazed that Charles didn't get a titleshot despite racking up so many wins against excellent opposition.

CCobra
05-30-2009, 04:58 PM
I'am shocked that someone wound't even have Charles is there top 5, but to not have him in the top 10 LHW's of all time is just bogus, and the person who write the list, must not no nothing about boxing.

The culprit for that poor list is the Ring Magazine list of 1975.

The Ring Magazine Staff (1975)
1. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
2. Archie Moore
3. Jack Dillon
4. Bob Foster
5. Sam Langford
6. Tommy Loughran
7. Paul Berlenbach
8. Billy Conn
9. Kid McCoy
10. Jack Delaney

It just shows how lists change over the years. Their are very few people who will remember the likes of Kid McCoy and Jack Delaney so their name fades out and they don't get he recognition that they perhaps deserve. It's why the likes of Jones Jr are making peoples lists at number 1.

CCobra
05-30-2009, 05:03 PM
Harold Johnson is a great pick. I rate him very highly.

He had a respectable record at heavyweight too. Johnson had actually signed to fight a young, raw Sonny Liston in 1956 before injuring his shoulder.

Johnson is often overlooked, which is a big shame. He was a great talent though.

Harold Johnson may have beaten Liston at that point. Imagine how good that win would've looked on his resume with Liston going onto become the fighter he was.

The fight was again about to be made in the 60's when Johnson was older but he would have probably been destroyed by Liston at that point.

Liston would have pasted an older version of Johnson but I think that Johnson may well have beaten a green Liston.

Can't take anything away from Charles, he did win all their meetings, but I feel that their head-to-head results are a bit deceiving, especially because there happens to be no film of these fights. Charles did not outclass Moore in my opinion, despite beating him three times.

The second fight was a close majority decision, the third fight was a back-and-forth contest which seemed to be going Moore's way until Charles came back to KO Moore after being hurt.

I believe Charles spent time in the military during 1943-1945. I think it was for the best though since he came back bigger and better, avenging his earlier losses to Marshall and Bivins.

The lack of film is really poor. They have footage from the late 1800s even yet they can't provide footage for a fight such as Moore/Charles. Deceiving they may be and we'll never know if the second fight was controversial scoring or not due to the fact that footage isn't available.

I think that coming back from the military may have made Charles a better fighter but we'll never know because of the unfortunate passing of Sam Baroudi. As they say, that fight took the venom from the Cobra and he was never the same again. They said he held back to much post-Baroudi.

TheGreatA
05-30-2009, 05:06 PM
The culprit for that poor list is the Ring Magazine list of 1975.

The Ring Magazine Staff (1975)
1. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
2. Archie Moore
3. Jack Dillon
4. Bob Foster
5. Sam Langford
6. Tommy Loughran
7. Paul Berlenbach
8. Billy Conn
9. Kid McCoy
10. Jack Delaney

It just shows how lists change over the years. Their are very few people who will remember the likes of Kid McCoy and Jack Delaney so their name fades out and they don't get he recognition that they perhaps deserve. It's why the likes of Jones Jr are making peoples lists at number 1.

There's some film of Jack Delaney and he looks like a very modern fighter who would probably be more appreciated if these films were made available for the general public.

I might try to get film of Delaney uploaded on youtube. Reminds me of Tunney, Conn and Loughran.

Southpaw16BF
05-30-2009, 05:09 PM
The culprit for that poor list is the Ring Magazine list of 1975.

The Ring Magazine Staff (1975)
1. Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
2. Archie Moore
3. Jack Dillon
4. Bob Foster
5. Sam Langford
6. Tommy Loughran
7. Paul Berlenbach
8. Billy Conn
9. Kid McCoy
10. Jack Delaney

It just shows how lists change over the years. Their are very few people who will remember the likes of Kid McCoy and Jack Delaney so their name fades out and they don't get he recognition that they perhaps deserve. It's why the likes of Jones Jr are making peoples lists at number 1.

Pretty shocking list especailly by Ring Magazine, would love to hear the editors reason for this. But yet the next 2 lists done by Ring Magazine of the best LHW's of all time, Charles was number #1 both times.

May 1994 Issue
1.Ezzard Charles
2.Archie Moore
3.Bob Foster
4.Gene Tunney
5.Tommy Loughran

2002 Issue
1.Ezzard Charles
2.Archie Moore
3.Michael Spinks
4.Tommy Loughran
5.Bob Foster
6.Jimmy Bivins
7.Harold Johnson
8.Maxie Rosenbloom
9.Billy Conn
10.Matthew Saad Muhammad
11.Victor Galindez
12.Jack Dillon
13.Battling Levinsky
14.Joey Maxim
15.Dwight Muhammad Qawi
16.John Henry Johnson
17.Bob Fitzsimmons
18.Gene Tunney
19.Virgil Hill
20.Marvin Johnson

Southpaw16BF
05-30-2009, 05:10 PM
Thanks for the info. I'm definetely no expert on LHW history. I did say 'probably' not top 5 as you can see.

You (and others) have given some excellent info on Charles accomplishments at LHW so I can see why you guys rate him so high. I'm amazed that Charles didn't get a titleshot despite racking up so many wins against excellent opposition.

No problem Bats.....

Ziggy Stardust
05-30-2009, 08:18 PM
Just for the hell of it I'll repost my own list:

ATGs

01. Ezzard Charles
02. Archie Moore
03. Gene Tunney
04. Bob Foster
05. Michael Spinks
06. Roy Jones Jr.
07. Billy Conn
08. John Henry Lewis
09. Tommy Loughran
10. Tommy Gibbons
11. Maxie Rosenbloom
12. Mauro Mina
13. Jack Dillon
14. Young Stribling


Some Near Greats (Alphabetical)

Jimmy Bivins
Eddie Booker
Georges Carpentier
Joe Choynski
Jack Delaney
Chris Ewbank
Tiger Jack Fox
Victor Galindez
Virgil Hill
Harold Johnson
Joe Knight
Battling Levinsky
Frankie Liles
Llloyd Marshall
Harry Matthews
Joey Maxim
Michael Moorer
Matthew Saad Muhammad
Kid Norfolk
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Willie Pastrano
Graciano Rocchiagiani
Antonio Tarver
Dick Tiger
Jose Torres
Tommy Yarosz

Poet

Southpaw16BF
05-30-2009, 08:41 PM
Just for the hell of it I'll repost my own list:

ATGs

01. Ezzard Charles
02. Archie Moore
03. Gene Tunney
04. Bob Foster
05. Michael Spinks
06. Roy Jones Jr.
07. Billy Conn
08. John Henry Lewis
09. Tommy Loughran
10. Tommy Gibbons
11. Maxie Rosenbloom
12. Mauro Mina
13. Jack Dillon
14. Young Stribling


Some Near Greats (Alphabetical)

Jimmy Bivins
Eddie Booker
Georges Carpentier
Joe Choynski
Jack Delaney
Chris Ewbank
Tiger Jack Fox
Victor Galindez
Virgil Hill
Harold Johnson
Joe Knight
Battling Levinsky
Frankie Liles
Llloyd Marshall
Harry Matthews
Joey Maxim
Michael Moorer
Matthew Saad Muhammad
Kid Norfolk
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Willie Pastrano
Graciano Rocchiagiani
Antonio Tarver
Dick Tiger
Jose Torres
Tommy Yarosz

Poet

I dont know if it was a mistake, but i really do think Dwight Muhhamed Qawi, formally known as Dwight Braxton at least derserves a mention, on the nearly list at LHW.

He was WBC LHW champion, taking it off Matthew Saad Muhammad with a TKO win, he would defend it 4 times and would also defeat Muhammad again.

Before losing it to your number #5 choice Michael Spinks on UD.

He would then move up to cruiserweight and win the WBA title and make one defence of that against former Heavyweight champion Leon Spinks, stopping him in 6.

And then would lose his title in a true battle and one of the most excting and brutal fights of all time against Evander Holyfield, on a SD, in which alot of people thought he should of got.

After this his weight gained out of control, and he would go on to get stopped by Evander Holyfield and George Foreman, and challeged once more for the WBA 190 title getting beat on SD against Robert Daniels.


Great fighter in his prime.

Here's a thread i done about him a while back
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260740&highlight=Dwight+Muhammad+Qawi

Ziggy Stardust
05-30-2009, 11:41 PM
I dont know if it was a mistake, but i really do think Dwight Muhhamed Qawi, formally known as Dwight Braxton at least derserves a mention, on the nearly list at LHW.

He was WBC LHW champion, taking it off Matthew Saad Muhammad with a TKO win, he would defend it 4 times and would also defeat Muhammad again.

Before losing it to your number #5 choice Michael Spinks on UD.

He would then move up to cruiserweight and win the WBA title and make one defence of that against former Heavyweight champion Leon Spinks, stopping him in 6.

And then would lose his title in a true battle and one of the most excting and brutal fights of all time against Evander Holyfield, on a SD, in which alot of people thought he should of got.

After this his weight gained out of control, and he would go on to get stopped by Evander Holyfield and George Foreman, and challeged once more for the WBA 190 title getting beat on SD against Robert Daniels.


Great fighter in his prime.

Here's a thread i done about him a while back
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260740&highlight=Dwight+Muhammad+Qawi

You're quite right of course. That was an oversight: He should have been in the "Near Great" which unfortunately was put together in a lot more haste than the "ATG" segment. I do, in fact, hold him in higher regard than both Saad Muhammed and Galindez for example.

Poet

JAB5239
05-31-2009, 01:55 AM
This is a list I posted about a year ago. I'd probably change a few things around now though.

Alright, this is my first actual 175 top 10 that I've put a bit of time into. Its actually alot different than past ones I've put together with fighters I thought I knew about. Tell me what you think, and if you have one yourself, post it. Constructive criticism welcome.

1. Archie Moore -185-23-11(131) More career ko's than any fight in history. Fought such names as durelle, Maxim, Lowry, Lytell, chase, Holman Williams, Marshall, Johnson, satterfield and Johnson.

2. Gene Tunney -81-1-3(48) fought some of the best fighters in history, some multiple times. Has such greats on his resume as Greb, Carpentier, Delaney, Levinski and Loughran. Moved up to heavyweight and beat Jack Dempsey twice.

3. Ezzard charles - 90-25-1(51) In my opinion p4p the best guy on the list. Beat fighters such as Moore, Marshall, Maxim and Bivins. Was also a heavyweight champion.

4. Tommy Gibbons - 94-5-3(48) Fought a who's who of great fighters from the early twentieth century including Kid Norfolk, Tunney, Greb, Carpentier, Miske, Levinski and Meehan.

5. Bob Foster - 56-8-1(46) In my opinion the hardest hitting fighter ever below heavyweight. His comp wasn't as good as most on this list, but he was 15-0 in lightheavy title fights. capeable of beating any fighter on this list IMO.

6. Micheal Spinks - 31-1(21) Won gold at the 1976 olympics. Held the title 4 years before moving up to beat Larry Holmes for the heavyweight championship. Beat top lightheavies John Conteh, Eddie Mustapha Muhammed, Qawi, Lopez and Johnson.

7. Billy Conn - 64-12-1(15) Conn is another fighter I rank relatively high p4p. He was an excellent middleweight before moving up to 175, and almost beat Joe Louis in a bid for the heavyweight title. Fought such notable fighters at 175 as gus Lesnivich, Bettina, Krieger, and Freddie Apostoli.

8. Tommy Loughran - 116-30-13(17) One of the best fighters of the roaring twenties. Fought the great Harry Greb to a draw. Also fough such top fighters from that period Young Stribling, Jimmy Slattery, McTigue, Delaney and Carpentier.

9. Mike McTigue - 108-46-13(52) The only fighter on this list not in the Hall of fame, and still somewhat of a question mark in my mind. But Mctigue fought a who's who of his era with mixed result. Among some of the names are Levinski, Loughran, siki, Stribling, Walker, Flower and Delaney.

10. Philidelphia Jack O'Brien - 134-11-23(54) Another question mark in my opinion, but I have seen him ranked highly by some notable historians. Made his bones against some top fighters from the early 20th century. Marvin Hart, who would go on to win the heavyweight title. Peter Maher and Joe choynski who were both rated fighter at 175b and heavy. And he also fought the great Jack Johnson to a draw while being out weighed by almost 45lbs.

1SILVA
05-31-2009, 03:35 AM
I've read quite a few cringeworthy lists in recent years. Many of them from supposed credible historians of the sport. In order to get myself posting on this forum I thought I'd throw up my personal list of the greatest Light Heavyweights to have ever graced the historical sport of Boxing. I'm usually the sort of person who goes into detail with this sort of thing but for now I'm going to just throw up my top 10 list and perhaps go into to detail about my selections if called out on any of the specific choices.

10. Maxie Rosenbloom
9. Billy Conn
8. Jimmy Bivins
7. Yolande Pompey
6. Gene Tunney
5. Tommy Loughran
4. Michael Spinks
3. Bob Foster
2. Archie Moore
1. Ezzard Charles

If anybody has any queries with regards to my list then feel free to question me and I'll gladly explain my choice(s).

Great list. Ezzard Charles only lost one fight at 175. Can someone explain to me how the greatest 175 pounder never received one title shot at all?

TheGreatA
05-31-2009, 07:54 AM
Great list. Ezzard Charles only lost one fight at 175. Can someone explain to me how the greatest 175 pounder never received one title shot at all?

Gus Lesnevich was the champ but he campaigned mostly at heavyweight after coming back from the Second World War in 1946.

He chose to defend his title twice against the manufactured Billy Fox and the British light heavyweight Freddie Mills who beat him in the rematch.

Lesnevich later challenged Charles for Charles' heavyweight title and lost in 7 rounds.

Southpaw16BF
05-31-2009, 03:26 PM
Bob Foster - 56-8-1(46) In my opinion the hardest hitting fighter ever below heavyweight. His comp wasn't as good as most on this list, but he was 15-0 in lightheavy title fights. capeable of beating any fighter on this list IMO.

Do people seem to forget, Foster did draw in a LHW Title fight against Jorge Ahumada, do he was past his best. He would retire in September 1974, but would comeback and have 7 more fights, losing his last two both by stoppage, before hanging the gloves up for good in 1978.

Obama
06-01-2009, 10:38 PM
I've read quite a few cringeworthy lists in recent years. Many of them from supposed credible historians of the sport. In order to get myself posting on this forum I thought I'd throw up my personal list of the greatest Light Heavyweights to have ever graced the historical sport of Boxing. I'm usually the sort of person who goes into detail with this sort of thing but for now I'm going to just throw up my top 10 list and perhaps go into to detail about my selections if called out on any of the specific choices.

10. Maxie Rosenbloom
9. Billy Conn
8. Jimmy Bivins
7. Yolande Pompey
6. Gene Tunney
5. Tommy Loughran
4. Michael Spinks
3. Bob Foster
2. Archie Moore
1. Ezzard Charles

If anybody has any queries with regards to my list then feel free to question me and I'll gladly explain my choice(s).

It's a good list otherwise but why would you have Yolande Pompey as number 7? Is that a mistake?

When I later read Pompey should have been Harold Johnson, I was pleased. Johnson is my #3 under Moore and Charles.

Another name that I haven't see in ppl's lists that I'm curious why not (although I don't rate him in the top 10) is John Henry Lewis. His LHW record was amazing, and he never lost his title.

Edit: Finally did see him in 1 guy's list.

JAB5239
06-02-2009, 12:43 AM
When I later read Pompey should have been Harold Johnson, I was pleased. Johnson is my #3 under Moore and Charles.

Another name that I haven't see in ppl's lists that I'm curious why not (although I don't rate him in the top 10) is John Henry Lewis. His LHW record was amazing, and he never lost his title.

Edit: Finally did see him in 1 guy's list.

JHL was a fine fighter, but 175 is very deep historicaly. He doesn't make my top 10 either, but he would probably make the top 15, or 20.

CCobra
06-02-2009, 02:50 AM
When I later read Pompey should have been Harold Johnson, I was pleased. Johnson is my #3 under Moore and Charles.

Another name that I haven't see in ppl's lists that I'm curious why not (although I don't rate him in the top 10) is John Henry Lewis. His LHW record was amazing, and he never lost his title.

Edit: Finally did see him in 1 guy's list.

Pompey was a mistake. I listed down 20 LHW and then cut and paste them into the positions they best deserved and I had Pompey in their originally and then forgot to replace him with Johnson.

As for John Henry Lewis, he does indeed have a fine record but he sits on the edges of my top 10. He's definitely in the top 15 with the likes of Michael Moorer & Joey Maxim (who roots deep at 15). For anybody wondering where I rank the 'great' Roy Jones Jr, he ranks just outside my top 20 and perhaps may make the top 20 based on merit alone.

Obama
06-02-2009, 02:56 AM
I'm not sure RJJ would even make my top 20 tbh. He should have stayed at SMW, at least with that joke of a division he could have been #1. Wasn't much else him to do at LHW other than fight Darius M, or give James Toney his rematch (who was robbed by Griffin twice imo).

LondonRingRules
06-02-2009, 06:26 AM
I'm not sure RJJ would even make my top 20 tbh. He should have stayed at SMW, at least with that joke of a division he could have been #1. Wasn't much else him to do at LHW other than fight Darius M, or give James Toney his rematch (who was robbed by Griffin twice imo).

** Sweet comedy, Obamy. Little ol' Montell and Thadzi robbed the great tub of goo, eh?

Fear not, a tub of goo is still a tub of goo regardless of whether it robs Tiberi and McCallum or is otherwise robbed.

The natural place for the rematch was at heavy after Jirov. Roy turned down the unbeaten Jirov after beating Ruiz because he was chasing his dream $100 million purse against Tyson or Lewis, so Toney got Jirov. Holy was Roy's 3rd choice, but he turned down Roy's egregious purse split to take the Lion's share against Toney, so Roy takes on Tarver instead.

Mr. Goo is inactive for a year, waiting with baited breath, but Roy wanted to avenge the Tarver criticism to ill result, so Mr. Goo kept taking his vitamins for ill results so he could provide :popcorn: to heavy ranks.

BennyST
06-03-2009, 06:13 AM
Fear not, a tub of goo is still a tub of goo regardless of whether it robs Tiberi and McCallum or is otherwise robbed.

Let me guess? You think the draw in their first fight was a robbery right? You seen it? The full fight? Recently? Toney actually won that fight by a good couple of points no problem. Check it out again.

Tiberi was the only guy that was robbed.

GJC
06-03-2009, 09:36 PM
I'd probably come up with something like:

Archie Moore
Bob Foster
Ezzard Charles
Gene Tunney
Michael Spinks
Tommy Loughran
Roy Jones Junior
Tommy Gibbons
Billy Conn
Bob Fitzsimmons
John Henry Lewis
Dwight Muhammad Qawi
Matthew Saad Muhammad
Jack Dillon
Dick Tiger

Top 10 I reserve the right to shuffle on a whim and a couple of sentimental choices in the next 5.