View Full Version : Why don't we see the Joe Frazier style anymore?


▀ringer
05-27-2009, 04:31 PM
Mike Tyson was the last guy I can think of who employed a style similar to Joe Fraziers ; with the constant bobing and weaving, consistent head movement, and undying motivation to break you down.

So how come we don't see that style anymore?

I've discussed it briefly in the past with various users, one of whom is currently an Amateur who employs the style (Corey, or Versatile2K9 on here.).

Most people have told me that it's very hard on your back, and it's likely that the physical demands of the style are too great for most people to commit to it fully.

I can see that being the case. But I was wondering what ye of the History section thought about the style in general, and why it's no longer in use.

Personally, it's one of my favorite styles. Old school pressure fighting is one of my boxing drugs of choice, that and slick defensive fighting.

But overall I think the style was very underrated, I imagine it's physically taxing to fight like that for 6 rounds, let alone 12 or 15. The head movement doesn't get nearly enough credit for slipping punches IMO, and some people have even mocked Frazier's style. As if it takes no skill to execute.

I'm of the firm opinion that Frazier's style was one of, if not the hardest styles to be successful with ; due to it's obvious physical demands, and the way that you're constantly ducking downward, and then having to come back up with counters. I can't imagine it's easy to duck and weave that way, and then come back with a counter that lands.

I imagine your head would be looking downward, and you would be unaware of your opponet's position. Therefore you'd likely have to see where your opponet was, duck his punch(es), and then estimate his whereabouts for your counter to be most effective.

Anyway, share your thoughts.

RightCross94
05-27-2009, 06:40 PM
it doesnt really work in the amateurs, and it takes a lot out of you to pull it off, you need to be really short for your div to pull it off also

portuge puncher
05-27-2009, 06:42 PM
you dont really need it if your tall,
and you still get hit ALOT with that style.

Eric Holder
05-27-2009, 06:51 PM
it's a really hard style to use

I try it from time to time when I spar guys that are much bigger than me, and when I'm done sparring my legs and back are sore for days

▀ringer
05-27-2009, 07:14 PM
you dont really need it if your tall,
and you still get hit ALOT with that style.

True, but I think you're also underrating it's defensive abilities a little bit.

In his prime, yeah, Frazier took some shots with that style. But he was also able to slip and evade as many punches as he took with his head and body movement alone.

Being a face-forward brawler will get you punished much more than Joe's style. Examples : Arturo Gatti, Ricky Hatton, and Michael Katsidis.

it's a really hard style to use

I try it from time to time when I spar guys that are much bigger than me, and when I'm done sparring my legs and back are sore for days

Interesting to hear some firsthand experience from a fighter who's used it.

I got a few quick questions for you, if you don't mind.

1.) Did you find it difficult to counter your opponet with the constant bending and head movement?

2.) Out of your legs and back, which would you say the style "taxed" more?

3.) Did you find yourself more easily, or less easily hit when using it?

MonsieurGeorges
05-27-2009, 07:41 PM
it's sloppy. That's how the guy wanted to fight and he was successful but i'll be damned if another Joe Frazier kind of guy wins a gold medal anytime soon

talip bin osman
05-27-2009, 07:46 PM
a prime carlos hernandez employed the same style... (correct me if im wrong man...)

its a dying style so to speak...

Eric Holder
05-27-2009, 09:15 PM
True, but I think you're also underrating it's defensive abilities a little bit.

In his prime, yeah, Frazier took some shots with that style. But he was also able to slip and evade as many punches as he took with his head and body movement alone.

Being a face-forward brawler will get you punished much more than Joe's style. Examples : Arturo Gatti, Ricky Hatton, and Michael Katsidis.



Interesting to hear some firsthand experience from a fighter who's used it.

I got a few quick questions for you, if you don't mind.

1.) Did you find it difficult to counter your opponet with the constant bending and head movement?

2.) Out of your legs and back, which would you say the style "taxed" more?

3.) Did you find yourself more easily, or less easily hit when using it?


1.) I didn't feel as comfortable countering in this style, but I'm still working on it. I think eventually, I might be able to use the momentum and leverage from bobbing and weaving to throw harder and better counters. but right now it's still really difficult for me.

2.) My legs were more sore, it felt like I did 1000 squats when I was done sparring. It's a really tiring style to use though, because of the constant motion; I'm in awe of how Joe Frazier was able to do it.

3.) I felt more elusive because I was always moving and squating low; when I got hit it wasn't as cleanly as when I stand in my traditional stance.

Eric Holder
05-27-2009, 09:15 PM
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res
05-27-2009, 09:27 PM
Well Tyson and Frazier didn't exactly have the same kind of style all though continual bobbing and weaving are used in both styles. Tyson's style was more like Floyd Patterson's and was less stressful than Frazier's style. Using the bobbing/weaving style as a pure brawler like Frazier takes ridiculously hard work and I don't think we are likely to see any more of that in Boxing. However there is a chance that we may see more Boxers within the Peekabo/Tyson-Patterson mold who use their Bobbing and weaving more intentionally, and who land while closing in instead of just staying in the pocket indefinitely and wailing away..

▀ringer
05-27-2009, 09:44 PM
Well Tyson and Frazier didn't exactly have the same kind of style all though continual bobbing and weaving are used in both styles. Tyson's style was more like Floyd Patterson's and was less stressful than Frazier's style. Using the bobbing/weaving style as a pure brawler like Frazier takes ridiculously hard work and I don't think we are likely to see any more of that in Boxing. However there is a chance that we may see more Boxers within the Peekabo/Tyson-Patterson mold who use their Bobbing and weaving more intentionally, and who land while closing in instead of just staying in the pocket indefinitely and wailing away..

Yeah, there are similarities and differences in Frazier's and Tyson's styles. The main similarity is obviously the consistent head movement.

But even on Tyson's style ; we don't see that anymore either. The peek-a-boo, bob and weave type style he had, with the high guard.

▀ringer
05-27-2009, 09:45 PM
it's sloppy. That's how the guy wanted to fight and he was successful but i'll be damned if another Joe Frazier kind of guy wins a gold medal anytime soon

1.) I don't see how you can label a dedicated style like Frazier's as "sloppy", especially when it made so many punches miss him or barely connect with him.

2.) The amateurs these days are ****, and could benefit greatly from more Joe Fraziers.

big status
05-27-2009, 09:50 PM
because heavyweights today r bums!!!!!!!!!!

Thunder Lips
05-27-2009, 09:59 PM
Lamon Brewster comes close but he burned out very quickly. Had some very exciting fights during his reign.

http://www.hbo.com/boxing/img/events/2004/0410_klitschko_brewster/482x246/action_01.jpg

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/09/29/box29_wideweb__430x295.jpg

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2006/1030/box_a_liakhovichbrewster_275.jpg

http://www.tommymac.com/images/layout/wlad.jpg

RightCross94
05-28-2009, 04:18 AM
ive seen guys use it at amateur tournaments and just get no points whatsoever, the punches are just too close and cant be seen by the judges, the only time they get paid is if they land a big hook up stairs, and plus its just so energy consuming

its not really the best way to fight short IMO, when i spar or fight taller gys i like to move side to side, catch the jab, throw lots of feints, counter their shots and attack at angles, bobbing and weaving like tyson and frazier is just too damn hard to pull off and plus it gets no points

TheGreatA
05-28-2009, 04:35 AM
Frazier was quite hard to hit in his prime before the eye and back problems had not yet arrived for him. Later on he got by with sheer toughness and willpower.

Early on Frazier boxed from a more straight-up stance with less head movement until his trainers changed him into a Henry Armstrong style constant pressure fighter with the trademark bobbing & weaving.

It's obviously a very demanding style and I can't remember any user of that particular style being successful in their 30's.

The 5'9 cruiserweight champion Giacobbe Fragomeni has some similarities in the way he uses head and body movement to get in close to his opponents.

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You're right that there aren't too many Frazier's around these days but then again there weren't too many throughout boxing history.

Lamon Brewster comes close but he burned out very quickly. Had some very exciting fights during his reign.

My biggest criticism of Lamon Brewster has always been how he uses very little head movement in his fights. He is taller than Tyson and Frazier for sure but eating jab after jab is surely not the best way to go on about your business.

Very tough customer though and definitely has stylistic similarities to Tyson and Frazier, also his left hook.

ive seen guys use it at amateur tournaments and just get no points whatsoever, the punches are just too close and cant be seen by the judges, the only time they get paid is if they land a big hook up stairs, and plus its just so energy consuming

its not really the best way to fight short IMO, when i spar or fight taller gys i like to move side to side, catch the jab, throw lots of feints, counter their shots and attack at angles, bobbing and weaving like tyson and frazier is just too damn hard to pull off and plus it gets no points

I'd advice short boxers to fight like Dwight Qawi used to. Not necessarily in the amateurs but in professional boxing.

A less taxing style than Frazier's but still very effective:

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Dick Tiger was also highly effective despite being short in stature:

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Davros?
05-28-2009, 08:28 AM
Mormeck was a similar fighter of sorts to Frazier, Tyson was a Peek a Boo fighter, as far as i know the only 3 fighters to use the true peek a boo at world level were Patterson Torres and Tyson all Cus fighters.

BennyST
05-28-2009, 10:55 AM
Juan Diaz uses a reasonably similar style. He actually has good defense as well, somewhat underrated defense in fact, much like Frazier. Obviously doesn't have the crushing power of Frazier but uses his style to great effect and success.

Smokin'J
05-28-2009, 11:14 AM
It takes alot of discipline, alot of heart and commitment clichÚ I know but its true.
It puts alot of pressure on your back.

DeepSleep
05-28-2009, 01:37 PM
If you never watched Jean Marc Mormeck box you will be in for a treat if you like watching Joe Frazier box. He employs a very similar style to Frazier. Also his fights tend to be action packed because he is very good at forcing the action in a fight by swarming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ahEBKSfcpI
Enjoy.

I've boxed quite a few people who have employed that style and one of its main disadvantages is that even when punches land on the hands and forearms of the boxer the judges will score some of the blows as clean hits. I had a match about a year ago against a guy who was very proficient at swarming in using a style similar to this. He controlled the fight and landed more clean punches on me than I did to him, but because I threw more straight punches while he came forward it gave the judges the illusion that I was landing clean straight punches on him when in reality most of the punches were deflecting off his gloves which caused them to score the fight in my favor.I think because the style is physically demanding as El Cabron said along with it not being very conducive to amateur boxing it may have lost it's populairty abit.