Just how good was Prince Naseem? [Archive]

Sir_Jose

11-16-2004, 04:02 PM

I've never actually seen the guy fight - I fell away from boxing in the mid-90s - and hear so many things about him.

He led the pack and allowed himself to be beat by Barrera.... he would never have been able to beat Barrera and the current crop... he fought the best... he ducked the best...

What's the true story? Also, just to be sad, I've put a poll in with it. 10 being an exceptional fighter, 5 being average, 1 being awful...

Hamed gets alot of hate because of his attitude and you will see people talk down his talent because they cant seperate the person from the boxer.

Make no mistake Hamed had all the talent in the world. At his peak I had him rated as high as #4 p4p.

The only guy you can say he didn't fight was Marquez. If anyone says other than that there reaching.

He has great reflexes and a highly unorthodoxed style. He had legit 1 punch KO power in either hand and could KO you with any punch from any angle. He had a good chin, people think because they seen him go down his chin wasn't good, but if those people actually knew anything about boxing they would know his bad balance is what lead to him being knocked down.

His resume is very good. He beat all 3 major belt holders, 4 if you include the WBO during his run. He also beat a few guys who went on to win world titles and a hand full of former champions. He really cleaned out the division it took MAB coming up from 122 to beat him.

Wilfredo Vasquez(WBA Champion)
Tom Johnson(IBF Champion)
Cesar Soto(WBC Champion)
Manuel Medina(Former and Future World Champion)
Paul Ingle(Future IBF champion)
Kevin Kelley(Former World Champion)
Wayne McCoulough(Former World Champion)
Vuyani Bungu(Former World Champion)

As far as fighting todays featherweights.

He would have easily beaten guys like Pac, Chi or Harrison. Guys who come at him are guys he ate up. The guys who gave him problems are counter punchers and guys who like to stay back.

jack_the_rippuh

11-16-2004, 04:22 PM

He was scared of PBF....end of discussion..

drag0n_

11-16-2004, 04:23 PM

Hamed gets alot of hate because of his attitude and you will see people talk down his talent because they cant seperate the person from the boxer.

Make no mistake Hamed had all the talent in the world. At his peak I had him rated as high as #4 p4p.

The only guy you can say he didn't fight was Marquez. If anyone says other than that there reaching.

He has great reflexes and a highly unorthodoxed style. He had legit 1 punch KO power in either hand and could KO you with any punch from any angle. He had a good chin, people think because they seen him go down his chin wasn't good, but if those people actually knew anything about boxing they would know his bad balance is what lead to him being knocked down.

His resume is very good. He beat all 3 major belt holders, 4 if you include the WBO during his run. He also beat a few guys who went on to win world titles and a hand full of former champions. He really cleaned out the division it took MAB coming up from 122 to beat him.

Wilfredo Vasquez(WBA Champion)
Tom Johnson(IBF Champion)
Cesar Soto(WBC Champion)
Manuel Medina(Former and Future World Champion)
Paul Ingle(Future IBF champion)
Kevin Kelley(Former World Champion)
Wayne McCoulough(Former World Champion)
Vuyani Bungu(Former World Champion)

As far as fighting todays featherweights.

He would have easily beaten guys like Pac, Chi or Harrison. Guys who come at him are guys he ate up. The guys who gave him problems are counter punchers and guys who like to stay back.

Great post, totally agree with you.

m00ks

11-16-2004, 04:33 PM

Sir_Jose

11-16-2004, 04:44 PM

and I think you're giving him a wee bit more credit than he deserved but hey that's me.

Did he not beat all these guys? Did he not have legit one punch KO power in either hand?

Wilfredo Vasquez(WBA Champion)
Tom Johnson(IBF Champion)
Cesar Soto(WBC Champion)
Manuel Medina(Former and Future World Champion)
Paul Ingle(Future IBF champion)
Kevin Kelley(Former World Champion)
Wayne McCoulough(Former World Champion)
Vuyani Bungu(Former World Champion)

Thats a very impresive resume.

stu

11-16-2004, 04:50 PM

GasPed

11-16-2004, 05:03 PM

He was a great athlete, similar to RJJ in style - posing, hands low, jumping in and out and sideways, and punishing opponents with quick fists and power in both hands. But he wasn't quite the phenom Roy was, in that while RJJ was blindingly quick for a middle/super middle/Light heavy, everyone at featherweight is quick. So even though Prince was quick for a feather, once he met someone who was also quick and had skills, the jig was up.

Still, I rated him a 7, if only for his exceptional physical talents.

m00ks

11-16-2004, 05:07 PM

Did he not beat all these guys? Did he not have legit one punch KO power in either hand?

Wilfredo Vasquez(WBA Champion)
Tom Johnson(IBF Champion)
Cesar Soto(WBC Champion)
Manuel Medina(Former and Future World Champion)
Paul Ingle(Future IBF champion)
Kevin Kelley(Former World Champion)
Wayne McCoulough(Former World Champion)
Vuyani Bungu(Former World Champion)

Thats a very impresive resume.

Well Wayne MacColough lost to Scott Harrison whom you say that prince would have beaten easily anyweyz, he also lost to Morales. Basically he never amounted to anything great.

Kevin Kelly he just overpowered and outtoughed. Kelley came barging in and Prince was just, well stronger. They traded knockdowns like they were punches. Getting dropped 3 times didn't impress me.

Medina was good but that's it. Luisito Espinosa from our very own Phillipines beat him twice. Basically he lost to everyone who had skill. Tapia, Marquez, Gainer, comeback Ingle fight. Kinda like Soto, who was a bit protected.

A win over Ingle was pretty good.

Win against Vasquez was "ok". I only say this cuz he was 38 when he fought Prince. Johnson was also 34 so a win against them was "ok" for me but that's it.

Bungu lost to Ledwaba who also got TKOed by Pacman.

So yah Prince was good but bah not amazing. That Barrera loss killed the myth.

AJ53

11-16-2004, 05:07 PM

I think he was great when he was young and able to move so quickly to avoid punches.

It seemed to me that as he got older and his reflexes slowed down, he could not, or would not, adjust his style to cope with this.
i dont think he slowed because of age'
after he split with ingle he never seemed to train as hard for fights relying more and more on his power.
if he had stayed with ingle i think he would of continued to be great.

m00ks

11-16-2004, 05:12 PM

Oh ye he did have a one punch KO but it's no good against a defensive fighter who 's fully aware of them.

Moon

11-16-2004, 05:28 PM

The Prince was clearly an 8, one of the elite of a generation of elite fighters. He was clearly a peer of Barrera, Morales, Tom Johnson, and Kevin Kelley, the premier featherweights of that era. His loss to Barrera wasn't that bad, as he was atleast competitive.

Hamed was embarassed and made to look very unskilled by Barrerra.

Hamed played with people's minds, not only because he was boldy ****y and entered the ring with a "your dead" attitude, he also had quick hands and could counter nicely. His power was top notch. His attitude and skills mix were enough to place him on top. Unfortunately, he liked the bully role more than he did the boxer/fighter role.

Barrera was his complete undoing. Hamed never recovered and never will recover from that bad loss. Why? Because he knew the "game is over". What happened to Hamed was the most damning thing that can happen in boxing ... he was "exposed".

I don't mean to diminish Barrera's skills, but Hamed's loss was as much mental as it was about fighting. Hamed lost his mental edge when he faced the "I don't give a damn about our ring entrance" Barrera. Barrera had a plan to box and counter Hamed, but he also gave Hamed much too much to think about. Hamed's skills disappeared when he knew that Barrera was going to stay in front of him and fight without backing down.

Today, Hamed knows that the top Feathers (and plus minus) are all cut from the same cloth as Barrera. Mentally tough. They would all "expose" the mentally weak Hamed, just by not backing down, and exploit it as a win.

Deejay

11-16-2004, 07:58 PM

THRILLAinmanila

11-16-2004, 08:01 PM

Isn't hamed supposed to be making a comeback to boxing in 2005? I highly doubt it but I'm pretty sure someone mentioned it somewhere. I think it'd be good for boxing...imagine pacman v hamed....awesome!!

Yeah. And many are saying he'd KO Pac. Would be an interesting fight between in-your-face brawlers.

tntkid

11-16-2004, 08:16 PM

I remember seeing Hamed trip over the top rope while trying to perform his customary jump into the ring:D But make no mistake about it Hamed was a great fighter in his day and his fights were usually exciting to watch.

oldgringo

11-16-2004, 08:49 PM

Using this scale I give the prince a 7 or 8. He was an excellent fighter in his prime and accomplished a lot before being beaten by a better fighter.

ispayder

11-16-2004, 09:12 PM

Sir_Jose

11-16-2004, 11:24 PM

Jose and Dragon, I respect your opinions. But for me, I'll give Hammed a 10 if we are talking of the best clown in featherweight. He did not clean the FW division. From what I know, he even ducked Luisito Espinosa, so I am giving him 7.

saying he "ducked" Luisito Espinosa proves how little you know about boxing. Im sorry but that was flat out laughable.

strictlydope

11-16-2004, 11:35 PM

he was an exciting fighter for sure, on this scale he gotta be around 8

Moon

11-16-2004, 11:49 PM

On the "got exposed" scale, he's a 10. In fact, he's THE 10. All other exposed fighters, and those yet-to-be-exposed, will be judged by the man who set the standard so high, The Prince.

Why? After such a grand entrance and his droopy-eyed look of disinterest (I thought he was gonna' yawn) before the bell, and his overall smugness ..... he then got schooled.

The all-time best exposed .... Naseem back-flip Champ Hamed (er, former back-flip Champ).

Sir_Jose

11-17-2004, 12:03 AM

teakay

11-17-2004, 01:24 AM

Do you guys honestly think Hamed can easily KO Pac?
I think Pac's movement will give Hamed too much trouble. And not to mention that Hamed is made for Pac's quick lefts.

I gave Hamed an 8. If he would have made a sucessful comeback he would be a 9. I disliked him and was always rooting against him, but you got to give him his due.

chito

11-17-2004, 01:30 AM

Cletus Funk

11-17-2004, 03:16 AM

did he beat soto? when?

It was in 1999 I believe.

Nobody's mentioned Steve Robinson on his resume who was a very good world champ who beat Colin McMillan & Duke McKenzie (both former champs, at 3 weights in McKenzie's case).

I gave him a 9 based on what I thought were his best years, leading up to the Robinson fight and for a couple years after.

I remember listening to Barry McGuigan commentating on his fights and stating that he even thought the Prince would have beaten him, which gives some indication as to how good he was.

JOM'S

11-17-2004, 06:07 AM

did he beat soto? when?

yeah, Sotto got a gimme and stole the belt from Espinosa...

then against Hamed, I heard Sotto was to protective got beaten in a clinch fest???

I could not rate Hamed fairly, so I will not, but the one fight I wanted to see before was an Espinosa-Hamed, I could at least rate the Prince if that fight happened....

But overall Hamed was the MAIN MAN during that time and Espinosa loss his ticket to stardom or at least the biggest pay check out there for him...

anthetamine

11-17-2004, 08:32 AM

naz was amazing., he wasnt at his best against barrera and i think he would have eaten him alive if they fought at naz's prime

he slipped against kevin kelly, i dont want to hear nothing bad said against him otherwise i will be upset

tony

11-17-2004, 08:38 AM

Naz was at least an 8 out of 10. It's easy to dislike him because he was so ****y but you can't argue with his talent. He had phenomenal KO power for his weight and from the angles he threw his punches. I just don't know where he got the leverage from... I think Barrera solved the riddle with him though. Naz was a counter puncher. Barrera forced him to be offensive and outpointed him. Plus, Naz always traded on his reflexes, often having his hands down by his waist. By the time he fought Barrera his reflexes had dulled. He got knocked all over the place that night.

m00ks

11-17-2004, 01:13 PM

It was in 1999 I believe.

Nobody's mentioned Steve Robinson on his resume who was a very good world champ who beat Colin McMillan & Duke McKenzie (both former champs, at 3 weights in McKenzie's case).

I gave him a 9 based on what I thought were his best years, leading up to the Robinson fight and for a couple years after.

I remember listening to Barry McGuigan commentating on his fights and stating that he even thought the Prince would have beaten him, which gives some indication as to how good he was.

Robinson had a **** record though

Cletus Funk

11-17-2004, 01:34 PM

Robinson had a **** record though

That he did, but he had a lot of defeats towards the end and a few right at the start which tainted it a bit.

Anyone who saw him fight will tell you how good he was as champ. I think he made 7/8 defences against mainly decent opposition with 2 or 3 big scalps.

jujitsujn

11-17-2004, 02:03 PM

Hamed would never beat Pac. Thats just nuts.

!! Anorak

11-17-2004, 03:11 PM

Thanks for the thoughts, all of you. It seems he's held in pretty high regard by most, even those who dislike his personality. Though this board seems fairly low on "haters" anyway, so maybe that influences the reactions.

The only time I've seen Naz fight was as part of a documentary of the Barrera match, "The Little Prince, The Big Fight". It showed him concerned less over the bout, more over his ego. It seemed to suggest he'd effectively beaten himself, particularly one scene where he was so out of practise he kept missing in sparring... and just treated it as a joke.

If he was at his peak, would he have still been at the top today?

J !

11-18-2004, 07:39 AM

He was scared of PBF....end of discussion..

hows that then floyd wasnt even a pro when hamed was at the beginning of his peak. And they didnt even fight at the same weight. (GFloyd was champ at super feather not feather)
ridiculous statment END OF DISCUSSION.

J !

11-18-2004, 07:43 AM

Hamed would never beat Pac. Thats just nuts.

prime naz smacks the **** out of pac im afraid inside 5.
You go toe to toe with the Prince ytou lose, he hit harder than pac at feather.

Barerra showed the way to beat hamed frsutrate him box him and keep him at arms length pacquio doesnt have the boxing skills to do that.

Pacquio despiute his adulation on this board has proved very little at featherweight, he beat a faded barerra well, and los agianst tmarquez after having his man in the first.( even though it was a draw I had marquez by two rounds)
not a pac hater think the guy is great but some of you guys need a reality check.

markosg19

11-18-2004, 08:45 AM

in the same way that mike tyson came along in 86 and peaked by 88 i think naz peaked by 1998/9 and he only came onto the world scen in 95. He started to beleive his own hype and allowed his weight to balloon in between fights.

The begining of the end was when he hired his brother to become his manger and set up his own promotion company. He then saw himself as his own boss and started to beglect the boxing side of things.

But i think he pound for pound one of the hardest punchers in history and possibly the hardest featherweight puncher of all time.

J !

11-18-2004, 08:55 AM

JOM'S

11-18-2004, 08:59 AM

markosg19

11-18-2004, 09:04 AM

still wish he'd come back though cause the buzz of watching a naz fight in the mid 90s was unlike any other!!! People like him and Trinidad are needed so badly in boxing at the moment.

JOM'S

11-18-2004, 09:17 AM

great post and spot on, though prince promotions was also run by others not just his bro, but he was the manager yip, Raith, I belive his name was, never heard a nice word about him.
from anyone. :eek:

Splititng with Ingle was a stupid thing to do, he made hamed and his best years were with Brendon. His ego becomae too big though as we know. Suarez taking over wasnt a smart move neither bloke is a yes man and is presently doing a good job of ruining Popo Freitas too.

Naz could have been an all time top five feather if he had showed some humility and gone back to Brendon to avenge his barerra debacle, got back to the basics and done what he was good at.

But sadly he couldnt, the ego wouldnt allow it, he couldnt admit he was wrong in many of his ways like he nevr came to terms that he had lost.
His attitude after the Calvo fight was a PR disaster (you dont call the people who have paid to see you fight ignorant). T
hat was the last straw to see people who formally cheered him on boo him was too much for the already bruised pride and ego.

hence he retired and he will stay retired.

This is one another reason I could not give Naz his due, he was the prime target of our Luisito Espinosa,WBC champion then, the prince was supposed to be the biggest pay check for a Filipino Fighter ever, with the manipulation of Prince Promotion and a promise of the mega buck fight???, the fight never materialized...

Espinosa was decisioned by Sotto (heard that was robbery, but i am not sure) and Sotto got the chance to face the Prince...

Prince-Espinosa fight would have been amazing, during that time two of the hardest hitting fighter in the div...

J !

11-18-2004, 09:22 AM

J !

11-18-2004, 09:27 AM

This is one another reason I could not give Naz his due, he was the prime target of our Luisito Espinosa,WBC champion then, the prince was supposed to be the biggest pay check for a Filipino Fighter ever, with the manipulation of Prince Promotion and a promise of the mega buck fight???, the fight never materialized...

Espinosa was decisioned by Sotto (heard that was robbery, but i am not sure) and Sotto got the chance to face the Prince...

Prince-Espinosa fight would have been amazing, during that time two of the hardest hitting fighter in the div...

mate boxing is a business also, its not simply bout who fights who, Naz was getting big money for fighting in the states or agianst the americans here, he was big box office, he was the name not espinoza he also got his ass kicked by augie sanchez who naz beat after standing tie to toe so if thats the form guide no wonder they didnt make the fight.

JOM'S

11-18-2004, 10:01 AM

mate no disrespect but 5 rounds for Pac? Try the first (which was erroneously scored 10-7 the 2nd and the tenth. thats it mate)

that was all he won five round where did you get five rounds from?

watch the fight again and truthfully tell me pacquio won five seperate rounds.

lets look then score it 10-6 first round, he won another two rounds that gives pac 111 - Marquez won the rest apart from what was stated = 114

If pacquio is som amazing he should have dealt with marquez comfortably. but he didnt.

Im not a naz fan a marquez in fact more than anything a pacquio fan, but really this constant over estimation of his deeds to date and what he may yet do are getting a bit much for me.

so far he has done nothing other than beat an aging barerra and luckily escape with a draw at featherwight hardly the makings of a future legend is it....

Sorry mate I do respect you and your views and I enjoy talking to you but its a bit much at present!!!

ill bew eager to give him credit when and where its due but at the moment he is being well overhyped.

Also no disrespect intended but maybe you are being blinded by the over hyping that you see, that's why you don't give the guy enough credit, pac will have a long time to prove his worth starting with Pac-JMM 2....

just like to give my arguments to your points, Pac started and became World Champ at Flyweight now he is campaigning as FW, barely three fight at this weight he already bang with two of the best featherweights on the planet...

aging barerra, thats the an escape hatch, he was the best then, the guy considered king, but many said he got old during the fight, MAB-EM III will show where he really is, hope he beat EM or at least give a war, just to make a point...

now really, you see the pac-jmm fight as 9-3, and just gave pac 1,2 & 10 all the other rounds to JMM....I think you gave all the close rounds to JMM, I also watched it several times, even counted the punches that landed, trying to be unbiased as possible came up with 7-5, we can go on and on with this fight and would not agree on what we see, we are just like the two judges who gave 110-115 in different direction, so I have to let the fighters themselve settle this for us, on PAC-JMM II ...

JOM'S

11-18-2004, 10:10 AM

mate boxing is a business also, its not simply bout who fights who, Naz was getting big money for fighting in the states or agianst the americans here, he was big box office, he was the name not espinoza he also got his ass kicked by augie sanchez who naz beat after standing tie to toe so if thats the form guide no wonder they didnt make the fight.

The Prince was really the big name, thats why he was the big mega bucks fight for Luisito that I was hoping to see, but alas that will never be...

I have to add a sad note here Luisito, got robbed in a title defense in the Philippines, he won the fight but never got the money, up to this time somebody owes him 100k, worst he is still fighting in the US and trying to make a living...

JOM'S

11-18-2004, 10:13 AM

IF that Prince-Espinosa fight had happen, whatever the outcome, Luisito could have retired long time ago, secured & contended...

J !

11-18-2004, 10:56 AM

rudy

11-18-2004, 11:03 AM

U are correct and on another note, for Barrea fans one thing I admire about Hamed, punching power, heart towards the end of his career became a mini mike tyson just looking for the power shots but not techique yet even in losing it was credible performance as he never got stopped or looking for a way out as Marco Antiono Barrea when Pacman upped the gears on hims. He would have smashed Scott Harrison to bits , Warren and Maloney know, remember he wiped out Michael Brodie in 1 round whereas he took InJin Chi over twenty rounds to 15 rounds to dispose of him.

Great fighter who liked Tyson changed the sport for a while, yes I saw him live

J !

11-18-2004, 11:07 AM

rudy he never fougHt brodie, do you mean billy hardy?

brodie has never been ko'd in a round and never fought naz.

LuKahnLi

11-18-2004, 11:50 AM

When Naz fought Johnson, it was Kelley who was considered the best featherweight in the world. When Naz got around to fighting Kelley, it was Luisito Espinosa and Alejandro Gonzalez who were the best fighters in the world. He stayed clear of the top tier. On their own, Kelley, Medina and Johnson were decent though.

J !

11-18-2004, 11:58 AM

abdiel2k3

11-18-2004, 12:00 PM

His loss to Barrera wasn't that bad, as he was atleast competitive.

wtf?
are we talkin about Prince Naseem Hamed?
you thought he was competitive in that fight
that was one of barreras best performance and was enhanced by the fact that it was also one of Nas's worse performances
but i assure you
he was not competitve in that fight

LuKahnLi

11-18-2004, 12:10 PM

JOM'S

11-18-2004, 12:42 PM

as always you make some valid points that make me think, i do enjoy sparring with you. :cool:

maybe i do react so much due to some of the opinions I hear flaoted around that ar ea bit OTT, perhaps I am being too much in the opposite direction I dunno.

I did guive the close rounds to marquez but I assure you I was totally impartial, I know that as a big fan cant possibly be (please dont take that as a criticisim I am the same aobut my favourite fighters) its totally natural.

It is indeed tragic if that situation is ongoing mayube I undersatand the slight hint of bitterness towards Naz, I have the same regarding him messing aorund Michael Brodie for 18 months.

fair enough as always Jomapac, respect to you and your opinions think we've done this one for now :cool:

Fair is Fair JPW and I think you are a gentleman and I know you have good points thats why I feel the need to defend my cause & my man with you....

But have to add that I am not really bitter about Naz just could not fully give him what is due him, coz of that big question I have in my mind, what if he fought my champ...

Whats the story regarding Naz messing with Broadie???

JOM'S

11-18-2004, 12:52 PM

Barrera was a 122 lber when Naz challenged him. Oh Naz was so brave. Who was favored to win that one again? Wasn't it 3 to 1 in Naz's favor. NOBODY except those who picked Barrera thought Naz was taking a huge risk.

If nobody here knows who Espinosa was that is their dammn problem. He WAS significant. He beat Manuel Medina, Cesar Soto, Kennedy McKinney AND Alejandro Gonzalez during his time at featherweight. He WAS one of the men to beat at featherweight when Naz supposedly ruled it. Naz wouldn't fight Gonzalez, Espinosa OR even Freddie Norwood.

Lu, I do agree with you here that Espinosa was really a significant fighter and beat all those top guys, but Hamed was the top money man during that time as JPW have said Naz is the Name, everybody was after him....

And I have to add that Naz also won't fight JMM the avoided one...

m00ks

11-18-2004, 03:24 PM

prime naz smacks the **** out of pac im afraid inside 5.
You go toe to toe with the Prince ytou lose, he hit harder than pac at feather.

Barerra showed the way to beat hamed frsutrate him box him and keep him at arms length pacquio doesnt have the boxing skills to do that.

Pacquio despiute his adulation on this board has proved very little at featherweight, he beat a faded barerra well, and los agianst tmarquez after having his man in the first.( even though it was a draw I had marquez by two rounds)
not a pac hater think the guy is great but some of you guys need a reality check.

Wow, you didn't just say that. You gonna honestly tell me that an off balance, hands dropping Prince would have such an easy time against Pac. If a 30 year old Kelley dropped him three times, how the hell can you count out Pacquiao that easy. Naseem Hamed beat guys with his speed, reflexes, and strength. You should watch more Pac fights to realize that this guy posseses all of those qualities and can very much compete with a prime Naz. The kid isn't even in his prime himself. Prince was good, but nothing more. His notable wins, featured victories over older guys or the ones lacking talent and defense. Prime this prime that is all bull**** statement because you could never tell what can happen in a match.

Barrera looked faded because Pac MADE him looked faded. The guy was coming off a win against Morales, Hamed, Tapia and Kelley. He was still a very strong competitor. Watch the first round of that fight and MAB was even doing well. All went downhill when Pac's left broke through and dropped him. THAT is when he faded. He got outtoughed, outworked outpowered plain and simple. Few people even gave Pac a chance before the fight, he beats Barrera convincingly and Oh! all of the sudden MAB was faded. Pfffffff...

As for the JMM match, when he outboxed Pac rounds 3-8 people got sucked into the hype of the comeback. No one actually noticed that some of those rounds we're actually close and that Pac rallied in the end to take some of the late rounds. It's all to fuel the drama.

Pac has tons to prove and I can fully understand why a lot of people are still sceptic about his abilities. Simply he hasn't doen enough. But I mean comee onn. Cut him a little slack and don't brush off his accomplishments. The kid deserves it.

m00ks

11-18-2004, 03:37 PM

mate no disrespect but 5 rounds for Pac? Try the first (which was erroneously scored 10-7 the 2nd and the tenth. thats it mate)

that was all he won five round where did you get five rounds from?

watch the fight again and truthfully tell me pacquio won five seperate rounds.

lets look then score it 10-6 first round, he won another two rounds that gives pac 111 - Marquez won the rest apart from what was stated = 114

If pacquio is som amazing he should have dealt with marquez comfortably. but he didnt.

Im not a naz fan a marquez in fact more than anything a pacquio fan, but really this constant over estimation of his deeds to date and what he may yet do are getting a bit much for me.

so far he has done nothing other than beat an aging barerra and luckily escape with a draw at featherwight hardly the makings of a future legend is it....

Sorry mate I do respect you and your views and I enjoy talking to you but its a bit much at present!!!

ill bew eager to give him credit when and where its due but at the moment he is being well overhyped.

I saw the fight 8-9 times. gave Pac 1-2, 9-10, 12. 3-8, 11 for Marquez. HOW you didn't score the 9th for Pacquiao boggles the mind. Marquez' shots were getting blocked or missing, Pacquiao continued to press, he was landing clearer than Marquez. He was getting back his rythm back. Heck Merchant even said he was outboxing Marquez in that round. 11-12 we're close rounds as neither guy did anything crazy to steel teh rounds. I gave them both a round a piece.

This "overestmation" comes from fans who saw him grow and improve from flyweight on. Having seen the guy overcome adversities and tough opponents gives us an idea of teh potential he posseses. It is not clear to everyone else as they haven't seen much fight from him to be convinced. Us however have, and for the rest, well all in due time.

JOM'S

11-19-2004, 01:51 AM

Got to give it to you MOOKS, you have way with words,tough guy...

and I like this one best...
"This "overestmation" comes from fans who saw him grow and improve from flyweight on. Having seen the guy overcome adversities and tough opponents gives us an idea of the potential he posseses. It is not clear to everyone else as they haven't seen much fight from him to be convinced. Us however have, and for the rest, well all in due time."
__________________

dpfinley

11-19-2004, 02:18 AM

Of all of Nas's fights I've seen...I give him an 8. His ring entrance alone was worth that much. You have to admit he was a very entertaining fighter to watch because he had decent power and could throw from all angles. He was the figher everyone loved to hate, and honestly, I wish he would make a full come back because he always made a good showing.

FistoftheDallasStar

11-19-2004, 02:37 AM

He was a good fighter with an unorthodox fighting style and a hard punch. He threw punches from strange angles and this helped him knockout helpless fighters but his unbalanced style would have failed against any top notch well schooled fighters. I gave him a 7.

Silencer

11-19-2004, 02:45 AM

I would say that he's at least an above average fighter. But the more important thing about him is that he's very exciting fighter to watch.
Just don't like his attitude...

muay

11-19-2004, 04:44 AM

sorry mate thats bull. if he did that he would never have taken on barerra who is five times the fighter of any of those names you have just mentioned.
Naz was the name not espinosa.

jeez i doubt half the people on here have even heard of espinosa.
theres only so many defences a year the man can make and looking at Naz record he fought 90% of the top feathers of his day.
Naz was the man in the niniteies no doubt in my mind anyway!

i cant belive im arguing for Naz i cant stand him :D

Let's see the chronology here :

Dec. 11, 1995 - Espinosa UD Mantecas Medina to become WBC featherweight champ
Sept. 30, 1995 - Hamed TKO8 Steve Robinson, to become WBO featherweight champ
March 1, 1996 - Espinosa KO4 Cobrita Gonzalez, 1st defense (WBC)
March 16, 1996 - Hamed TKO8 Said Lawal, 1st defense (WBO)
July 6, 1996 - Espinosa UD Cesar Soto, 2nd defense (WBC)
June 8, 1996 - Hamed TKO2 Daniel Alicea, 2nd defense (WBO)
August 31, 1996 - Hamed TKO 11 Mantecas Medina, 3rd defense (WBO)
October 2, 1996 - Espinosa TKO8 Nobutoshi Hiranaka, 3rd defense (WBC)
November 9, 1996 - Hamed TKO2 Daniel Molina, 4th defense (WBO)
February 8, 1997 - Hamed TKO8 Tom Johnson, 5th defense (WBO) and annexed the IBF featherweight belt
May 3, 1997 - Hamed KO1 Billy Hardy, 6th defense (WBO), 1st (IBF)
May 17, 1997 - Espinosa TD8 Mantecas Medina, 4th defense (WBC)
June 19, 1997 - Hamed TKO2 Juan Cabrera, 7th defense (WBO), 2nd (IBF)
October 11, 1997 - Hamed KO7 Jose Badillo, 8th defense (WBO)
December 6, 1997 - Espinosa TKO6 Carlos Rios, 5th defense (WBC)
December 19, 1997 - Hamed KO4 Kevin Kelley, 9th defense (WBO)
April 18, 1998 - Hamed TKO7 Wilfredo Vazquez, 10th defense (WBO)
August 15, 1998 - Espinosa TD11 Juan Carlos Ramirez, 6th defense (WBC)
October 31, 1998 - Hamed UD12 Wayne McCullough, 11th defense (WBO)
November 11, 1998 - Espinosa TKO2 Kennedy McKinney, 7th defense (WBC)
April 10, 1999 - Hamed KO11 Paul Ingle, 12th defense (WBO)
May 15, 1999 - Espinosa (L)UD12 Cesar Soto, lost WBC featherweight belt
October 22, 1999 - Hamed UD12 Cesar Soto, annexed WBC featherweight belt

So who fought 90% of the top featherweights of the 90's here?
Espinosa - Medina(51-6-0), Gonzalez(37-3-0), Soto(43-6-2), Rios(39-0-1), Ramirez(14-0-0)
Hamed - Medina(52-7-0), Kelley(47-1-2), Soto(54-7-2), Vazquez(50-7-2)

Espinosa beat-up Medina and Soto first before Hamed fought them, and he TKO'd Cobrita Gonzalez who TKO'd Kelley. He never had the chance to lay his hands on Vazquez (who was WBA champ that time), IMO he would've handled him the same way he did to Kennedy McKinney who were small featherweights (they're natural 118~122 lbers).

All I'm saying here is, Hamed wasn't the best featherweight during the 90's, there was another champ named Luisito Espinosa who was unknown but nonetheless a very good fighter also. Perhaps with more skills than the very popular Prince Hamed. Hamed has more fights obviously, but that's a no brainer, Espinosa is based in the Phils. and getting fights here in Asia is a lot more difficult. BTW, it is not BS that Hamed avoided Espinosa and Riath Hamed offered to promote his fights, i heard it from the lips of Mr. Ronnie Nathanielsz, a writer of this site, commentating in one of Espinosa's fights.

Going back to the topic of this thread, i rate Naseem Hamed an eight (8), annexing the WBO, WBC & IBF belts is something.

THRILLAinmanila

11-19-2004, 04:49 AM

Let's see the chronology here :

Dec. 11, 1995 - Espinosa UD Mantecas Medina to become WBC featherweight champ
Sept. 30, 1995 - Hamed TKO8 Steve Robinson, to become WBO featherweight champ
March 1, 1996 - Espinosa KO4 Cobrita Gonzalez, 1st defense (WBC)
March 16, 1996 - Hamed TKO8 Said Lawal, 1st defense (WBO)
July 6, 1996 - Espinosa UD Cesar Soto, 2nd defense (WBC)
June 8, 1996 - Hamed TKO2 Daniel Alicea, 2nd defense (WBO)
August 31, 1996 - Hamed TKO 11 Mantecas Medina, 3rd defense (WBO)
October 2, 1996 - Espinosa TKO8 Nobutoshi Hiranaka, 3rd defense (WBC)
November 9, 1996 - Hamed TKO2 Daniel Molina, 4th defense (WBO)
February 8, 1997 - Hamed TKO8 Tom Johnson, 5th defense (WBO)
May 3, 1997 - Hamed KO1 Billy Hardy, 6th defense (WBO)
May 17, 1997 - Espinosa TD8 Mantecas Medina, 4th defense (WBC)
October 11, 1997 - Hamed KO7 Jose Badillo, 7th defense (WBO)
December 6, 1997 - Espinosa TKO6 Carlos Rios, 5th defense (WBC)
December 19, 1997 - Hamed KO4 Kevin Kelley, 8th defense (WBO)
April 18, 1998 - Hamed TKO7 Wilfredo Vazquez, 9th defense (WBO)
August 15, 1998 - Espinosa TD11 Juan Carlos Ramirez, 6th defense (WBC)
October 31, 1998 - Hamed UD12 Wayne McCullough, 10th defense (WBO)
November 11, 1998 - Espinosa TKO2 Kennedy McKinney, 7th defense (WBC)
April 10, 1999 - Hamed KO11 Paul Ingle, 11th defense (WBO)
May 15, 1999 - Espinosa (L)UD12 Cesar Soto, lost WBC featherweight belt
October 22, 1999 - Hamed UD12 Cesar Soto, annexed WBC featherweight belt

So who fought 90% of the top featherweights of the 90's here?
Espinosa - Medina(51-6-0), Gonzalez(37-3-0), Soto(43-6-2), Rios(39-0-1), Ramirez(14-0-0)
Hamed - Medina(52-7-0), Kelley(47-1-2), Soto(54-7-2), Vazquez(50-7-2)

Espinosa beat-up Medina and Soto first before Hamed fought them, and he TKO'd Cobrita Gonzalez who TKO'd Kelley. He never had the chance to lay his hands on Vazquez (who was WBA champ that time), IMO he would've handled him the same way he did to Kennedy McKinney who were small featherweights (they're natural 118~122 lbers).

All I'm saying here is, Hamed wasn't the best featherweight during the 90's, there was another champ named Luisito Espinosa who was unknown but nonetheless a very good fighter also. Perhaps with more skills than the very popular Prince Hamed. BTW, it is not BS that Hamed avoided Espinosa and Riath Hamed offered to promote his fights, i heard it from the lips of Mr. Ronnie Nathanielsz, a writer of this site, commentating in one of Espinosa's fights.

Great post dude:) I should call you the "encyclopedia of boxingscene" :D

Cletus Funk

11-19-2004, 07:54 AM

[QUOTE=muay_thai]
So who fought 90% of the top featherweights of the 90's here?
Espinosa - Medina(51-6-0), Gonzalez(37-3-0), Soto(43-6-2), Rios(39-0-1), Ramirez(14-0-0)
Hamed - Medina(52-7-0), Kelley(47-1-2), Soto(54-7-2), Vazquez(50-7-2)

Espinosa beat-up Medina and Soto first before Hamed fought them, and he TKO'd Cobrita Gonzalez who TKO'd Kelley. He never had the chance to lay his hands on Vazquez (who was WBA champ that time), IMO he would've handled him the same way he did to Kennedy McKinney who were small featherweights (they're natural 118~122 lbers).

All I'm saying here is, Hamed wasn't the best featherweight during the 90's, there was another champ named Luisito Espinosa who was unknown but nonetheless a very good fighter also. Perhaps with more skills than the very popular Prince Hamed. Hamed has more fights obviously, but that's a no brainer, Espinosa is based in the Phils. and getting fights here in Asia is a lot more difficult. BTW, it is not BS that Hamed avoided Espinosa and Riath Hamed offered to promote his fights, i heard it from the lips of Mr. Ronnie Nathanielsz, a writer of this site, commentating in one of Espinosa's fights.

QUOTE]

You seem to have omitted Tom Johnson (reigning IBF champ) and Paul Ingle (future IBF champ) from Naz's list of the top FW that he fought as well as Barerra, McCullogh and Robinson so I would say that it was Naz who faced the better opposition.

Also, Hamed beat Soto with him coming off a victory over Espinosa so I don't understand the "beat-up" comment.

No doubt Espinosa was good but he lost quite a few fights throughout his career and was stopped by guys with nowhere near the power of Hamed. Naz was the man.

!! Anorak

11-19-2004, 04:27 PM

L-DJ-B

11-19-2004, 04:36 PM

Naz was the man in his day, you either loved him or hated him! My gramp sure his hell hated him, all the younger generation loved him though! I don't think he could comeback and make any impact now, his fast reflexes would have slowed a great deal and that was one of his main attributes.

I'm sorry but Espinosa wouldn't have lived with Naz!

muay

11-19-2004, 08:47 PM

1) You seem to have omitted Tom Johnson (reigning IBF champ) and Paul Ingle (future IBF champ) from Naz's list of the top FW that he fought as well as Barerra, McCullogh and Robinson so I would say that it was Naz who faced the better opposition.

2) Also, Hamed beat Soto with him coming off a victory over Espinosa so I don't understand the "beat-up" comment.

3) No doubt Espinosa was good but he lost quite a few fights throughout his career and was stopped by guys with nowhere near the power of Hamed. Naz was the man.

1) McCullough is a great bantamweight, never a top featherweight. Ingle annexed the IBF strap from the same Medina that Espinosa already beat twice. No disrespect to Robinson, but who has he fought? He would also later be KTFO'd by Ramirez whom Espinosa beat. Naseem was schooled by Barrera in 2001, i'm responding to the top feathers of the 90's only, so he's exluded from the list. Tom Johnson was a top featherweight, i agree.

2) Espinosa fought Soto twice before Hamed wrestled him and take his green WBC strap. He schooled Soto in the 1st and outboxed him in the 2nd (the judges gave it to Soto, but in my eyes he won that fight). Another thing, have you ever wondered why Hamed dropped this belt? Guty Espadas was mandatory and Espinosa was promised another shot at the title.

3) I won't argue that. Naseem had more oppurtunities. He was the popular man.

dpfinley

11-20-2004, 01:35 AM

Too bad he won't make a big comeback...

abdiel2k3

11-20-2004, 01:58 AM

Let's see the chronology here :

Dec. 11, 1995 - Espinosa UD Mantecas Medina to become WBC featherweight champ
Sept. 30, 1995 - Hamed TKO8 Steve Robinson, to become WBO featherweight champ
March 1, 1996 - Espinosa KO4 Cobrita Gonzalez, 1st defense (WBC)
March 16, 1996 - Hamed TKO8 Said Lawal, 1st defense (WBO)
July 6, 1996 - Espinosa UD Cesar Soto, 2nd defense (WBC)
June 8, 1996 - Hamed TKO2 Daniel Alicea, 2nd defense (WBO)
August 31, 1996 - Hamed TKO 11 Mantecas Medina, 3rd defense (WBO)
October 2, 1996 - Espinosa TKO8 Nobutoshi Hiranaka, 3rd defense (WBC)
November 9, 1996 - Hamed TKO2 Daniel Molina, 4th defense (WBO)
February 8, 1997 - Hamed TKO8 Tom Johnson, 5th defense (WBO) and annexed the IBF featherweight belt
May 3, 1997 - Hamed KO1 Billy Hardy, 6th defense (WBO), 1st (IBF)
May 17, 1997 - Espinosa TD8 Mantecas Medina, 4th defense (WBC)
June 19, 1997 - Hamed TKO2 Juan Cabrera, 7th defense (WBO), 2nd (IBF)
October 11, 1997 - Hamed KO7 Jose Badillo, 8th defense (WBO)
December 6, 1997 - Espinosa TKO6 Carlos Rios, 5th defense (WBC)
December 19, 1997 - Hamed KO4 Kevin Kelley, 9th defense (WBO)
April 18, 1998 - Hamed TKO7 Wilfredo Vazquez, 10th defense (WBO)
August 15, 1998 - Espinosa TD11 Juan Carlos Ramirez, 6th defense (WBC)
October 31, 1998 - Hamed UD12 Wayne McCullough, 11th defense (WBO)
November 11, 1998 - Espinosa TKO2 Kennedy McKinney, 7th defense (WBC)
April 10, 1999 - Hamed KO11 Paul Ingle, 12th defense (WBO)
May 15, 1999 - Espinosa (L)UD12 Cesar Soto, lost WBC featherweight belt
October 22, 1999 - Hamed UD12 Cesar Soto, annexed WBC featherweight belt

So who fought 90% of the top featherweights of the 90's here?
Espinosa - Medina(51-6-0), Gonzalez(37-3-0), Soto(43-6-2), Rios(39-0-1), Ramirez(14-0-0)
Hamed - Medina(52-7-0), Kelley(47-1-2), Soto(54-7-2), Vazquez(50-7-2)

Espinosa beat-up Medina and Soto first before Hamed fought them, and he TKO'd Cobrita Gonzalez who TKO'd Kelley. He never had the chance to lay his hands on Vazquez (who was WBA champ that time), IMO he would've handled him the same way he did to Kennedy McKinney who were small featherweights (they're natural 118~122 lbers).

All I'm saying here is, Hamed wasn't the best featherweight during the 90's, there was another champ named Luisito Espinosa who was unknown but nonetheless a very good fighter also. Perhaps with more skills than the very popular Prince Hamed. Hamed has more fights obviously, but that's a no brainer, Espinosa is based in the Phils. and getting fights here in Asia is a lot more difficult. BTW, it is not BS that Hamed avoided Espinosa and Riath Hamed offered to promote his fights, i heard it from the lips of Mr. Ronnie Nathanielsz, a writer of this site, commentating in one of Espinosa's fights.

Going back to the topic of this thread, i rate Naseem Hamed an eight (8), annexing the WBO, WBC & IBF belts is something.

wow
if this guy doesnt deserve karma for this much thought and facts
idk who would
give this guy some karma people

Cletus Funk

11-20-2004, 02:56 AM

1) McCullough is a great bantamweight, never a top featherweight. Ingle annexed the IBF strap from the same Medina that Espinosa already beat twice. No disrespect to Robinson, but who has he fought? He would also later be KTFO'd by Ramirez whom Espinosa beat. Naseem was schooled by Barrera in 2001, i'm responding to the top feathers of the 90's only, so he's exluded from the list. Tom Johnson was a top featherweight, i agree.

2) Espinosa fought Soto twice before Hamed wrestled him and take his green WBC strap. He schooled Soto in the 1st and outboxed him in the 2nd (the judges gave it to Soto, but in my eyes he won that fight). Another thing, have you ever wondered why Hamed dropped this belt? Guty Espadas was mandatory and Espinosa was promised another shot at the title.

3) I won't argue that. Naseem had more oppurtunities. He was the popular man.

Good arguments but I'll have to disagree on a few points.

I don't see how your comments exclude Ingle from being a top FW & McCullough proved his worth at FW with his performances against Hamed and Morales.

Because Hamed lost to Barerra doesn't negate the fact that he was one of the top guys that he took on.

Robinson ended his career much in the same way as a lot of fighters, with a lot of losses of which Ramirez was one. In his prime he beat Duke McKenzie, Colin McMillan and Paul Hodkinson who were all former world champs. He was undoubtedly one of the top FW when Naz fought him and had defended his title 7 times.

Most people are of the opinion that it was Soto who wrestled Naz to death as he was scared ****less of getting KTFO.

I would assume that Hamed dropped his belt because he didn't want to be forced to fight guys like the one you mentioned as they weren't big box office. He was looking for fights like the Barerra one at that point.

JOM'S

11-20-2004, 02:58 AM

wow
if this guy doesnt deserve karma for this much thought and facts
idk who would
give this guy some karma people

yeah as soon as my 24 hours is up, I will give him some....

JOM'S

11-20-2004, 03:07 AM

Thanks for all your comments, very enlightening. I see that out of all those who have voted, over 93% have said the Prince was above average in ability. And as someone voted him 1/10, I can assume that was a hater...

I do believe Hamed is a great fighter but could not give him his due, cuz in my mind he did not answer the question that mattered to me....

its true that he fought with the best, but he also avoided the best such guys as Espinosa and JMM (which were great fighters at that time but albeit unknown)

`STEELHEAD

11-20-2004, 03:21 AM

Well Wayne MacColough lost to Scott Harrison whom you say that prince would have beaten easily anyweyz, he also lost to Morales. Basically he never amounted to anything great.

Kevin Kelly he just overpowered and outtoughed. Kelley came barging in and Prince was just, well stronger. They traded knockdowns like they were punches. Getting dropped 3 times didn't impress me.

Medina was good but that's it. Luisito Espinosa from our very own Phillipines beat him twice. Basically he lost to everyone who had skill. Tapia, Marquez, Gainer, comeback Ingle fight. Kinda like Soto, who was a bit protected.

A win over Ingle was pretty good.

Win against Vasquez was "ok". I only say this cuz he was 38 when he fought Prince. Johnson was also 34 so a win against them was "ok" for me but that's it.

Bungu lost to Ledwaba who also got TKOed by Pacman.

So yah Prince was good but bah not amazing. That Barrera loss killed the myth.

yeah, thats how i remember it.his pre-show antics rubbed me the wrong way. that barrera fight is one of the most enjoyable fights iv'e seen. funny, i started feeling sorry for the guy after barrera exposed him for what he was. i think when he got rid of his manager and his brother took over the prince became a pauper.

t_tsuguri

11-20-2004, 03:25 AM

Overrated...I heard that prior to the Barrera fight his brother was showing him old Barrera footage...ie. Barrera before he changed his style, to feed his ego and give him a sense of security...the dude, in my opinion was a punk

muay

11-20-2004, 04:17 AM

Good arguments but I'll have to disagree on a few points.

1) I don't see how your comments exclude Ingle from being a top FW & McCullough proved his worth at FW with his performances against Hamed and Morales.

2) Because Hamed lost to Barerra doesn't negate the fact that he was one of the top guys that he took on.

3) Robinson ended his career much in the same way as a lot of fighters, with a lot of losses of which Ramirez was one. In his prime he beat Duke McKenzie, Colin McMillan and Paul Hodkinson who were all former world champs. He was undoubtedly one of the top FW when Naz fought him and had defended his title 7 times.

4) Most people are of the opinion that it was Soto who wrestled Naz to death as he was scared ****less of getting KTFO.

5) I would assume that Hamed dropped his belt because he didn't want to be forced to fight guys like the one you mentioned as they weren't big box office. He was looking for fights like the Barerra one at that point.

1) Paul Ingle was champ by beating a shot Medina. McCullough was a great bantam champ, but as you've said Morales and Hamed tested him and was found wanting @ featherweight.

2) I agree. No, not at all, Barrera was topgun. I excluded him on purpose, limited the list up to '99 only in response to the other poster who mentioned top feathers of the 90's.

3) Robinson was a champ, but he was untested, he took on either old & smaller featherweights (guys moving up), untested domestic guys and ex-champs. Duke McKenzie who challenged him was a flyweight & bantamweight champ. Paul Hodkinson (ex-WBC champ), previously lost to Goyo Vargas. Ditto, Colin McMillan, untested ex-WBO champ previously lost to Palacios. Robinson is OK but he's not top IMO.

4) It's Soto's style to clinch after throwing some combos as a defensive move (like Ruiz) but the Prince would have none of it and body slams him to the canvass, Soto retaliates with some serious clinches and from then on it was an ugly street fight.

5) I agree. Both Espinosa and Espadas were High Risk/Low Reward fights for him. Settled instead for another 122-lber moving up and who they mistook as damaged goods after losing to Morales and to Junior Jones twice.

WillieW

11-20-2004, 04:34 AM

Naz is the Elvis of boxing. He has been sighted throughout the world and everyone is awaiting his comeback......like Phoenix rising from the ashes. I saw him flipping burgers one day....then my buddy saw him greeting at Walmart. Naz will return and save boxing................not.

Naz was a very skilled and exciting boxer. He had some good wins and he was on his way to possibly becoming great. Then came MAB.

MAB not only beat Naz....he broke him down and beat him up for 12 rounds. Down right gave Naz a beat-down clinic. It would have been more merciful if MAB just KOed him. Instead the bully ended up with his head smashed in the corner via a pissed off MAB who didn't like Naz's clowning.

People claim that haters didn't like Naz because of his attitude. I'm not one of those. I don't like Naz not because he was arrogant, not because I think he was overrated, and not because I think his record was that padded.....I don't like him because he ran like a scared puppy the first time he met adversity. He could not handle getting back in the ring after that lose. He quit.........something he will never live down.

Cletus Funk

11-20-2004, 04:34 AM

1) Paul Ingle was champ by beating a shot Medina. McCullough was a great bantam champ, but as you've said Morales and Hamed tested him and was found wanting @ featherweight.

2) I agree. No, not at all, Barrera was topgun. I excluded him on purpose, limited the list up to '99 only in response to the other poster who mentioned top feathers of the 90's.

3) Robinson was a champ, but he was untested, he took on either old & smaller featherweights (guys moving up), untested domestic guys and ex-champs. Duke McKenzie who challenged him was a flyweight & bantamweight champ. Paul Hodkinson (ex-WBC champ), previously lost to Goyo Vargas. Ditto, Colin McMillan, untested ex-WBO champ previously lost to Palacios. Robinson is OK but he's not top IMO.

4) It's Soto's style to clinch after throwing some combos as a defensive move (like Ruiz) but the Prince would have none of it and body slams him to the canvass, Soto retaliates with some serious clinches and from then on it was an ugly street fight.

5) I agree. Both Espinosa and Espadas were High Risk/Low Reward fights for him. Settled instead for another 122-lber moving up and who they mistook as damaged goods after losing to Morales and to Junior Jones twice.

Fair enough but you say Medina was shot. He beat Scott Harrison down the line for the world title.

I disagree that McCullough losing to Morales and Hamed devalues him as a FW...just about everyone mentioned on this thread would or did lose to these two.

On Robinson, McKenzie was also champ at Super Bantamweight and had come up through the same weight divisions as Espinosa, schooling Soto along the way. McMillan was a very talented fighter and only lost his title after dislocating his shoulder early in the fight.

muay

11-20-2004, 04:48 AM

Fair enough but you say Medina was shot. He beat Scott Harrison down the line for the world title.

I disagree that McCullough losing to Morales and Hamed devalues him as a FW...just about everyone mentioned on this thread would or did lose to these two.

On Robinson, McKenzie was also champ at Super Bantamweight and had come up through the same weight divisions as Espinosa, schooling Soto along the way. McMillan was a very talented fighter and only lost his title after dislocating his shoulder early in the fight.

Medina is something else ;) he's like Lazarus of the boxing world. I can't believe this old man is still fighting, I'm not sure though if Mantecas can surprise us again.

Cletus Funk

11-20-2004, 04:58 AM

Medina is something else ;) he's like Lazarus of the boxing world. I can't believe this old man is still fighting, I'm not sure though if Mantecas can surprise us again.

Hehe :D . I agree, the guy's achieved alot given the talent at his disposal but I think he's done.

muay

11-20-2004, 05:12 AM

Hehe :D . I agree, the guy's achieved alot given the talent at his disposal but I think he's done.

Against the present crop of talents at the featherweight...yeah, he's done. :)

Brotherfromthehoods

11-20-2004, 11:24 AM

hamed was good but he got battered

Sir_Jose

11-20-2004, 04:05 PM

Im sorry but some of this stuff is just flat out laghable.

lets get a couple things straight.

1) No one and I do mean NO ONE ducked Luisito Espinosa. Espinosa had his shot to fight Hamed and he LOST to Soto so Soto got the shot at Hamed. Just cause a fighter is Asain doesn't mean he was that great cause Espinosa was an above agerage fighter at best with one of the single worst chins of any fighter I have ever seen.

He didn't get his shot because when the oppertunity was in fron of him he couldn't come through and if you want me to believe the highly popular Philpino didn't get a fair shake and was robbed in the Phillipines im gonna have to call bull**** on that one.

2) Tom Johnson was thought by everyone to be the best featherweight in the world when he fought Hamed and Kevin Kelley was thought of by everyone in the boxing world as the #2 guy in the division when the fight with Hamed happend. Anyone who would try and deny this has no knowledge of what actually happend.

To say Alejandro Gonzales or Espinosa were the best is a flat out joke and thats the only word to describe that opinion a joke.Hell Gonzales wasn't even champion anymore by the time Hamed came onto the scene.

There are people in this thread actually claimg Hamed ducked Freddy Norwood thats how bad this is getting.

muay

11-21-2004, 11:05 PM

Hamed was already WBO and IBF champ when Espinosa fought Rios, Hamed would then proceed to TKO ex-champ Kevin Kelley and beat WBA kingpin Wilfredo Vasquez. At this time, Hamed dropped his IBF belt and the WBA belt somehow was unofficially his. So, that leaves WBC champ Espinosa as the only other reigning featherweight champ that time (circa April '98 onwards). It was during this time that I read from various local newspapers that Espinosa is chasing a big payday against Hamed, sadly these papers have no websites yet that time to get some reference articles. Anyway, after Espi TKO'd McKinney (this guy beat Junior Jones who in turn beat Barrera twice!), i heard Ronnie Nathanielsz (a writer of BoxingScene) in his commentary say that Hamed was afraid of Espinosa and is ducking him. Anyone of you with old Espinosa fight tapes can confirm this. Also, i read in some local newspaper that Riath Hamed allegedly offered Espi to promote his fights as a ploy to keep him off his brother, after seeing Espi's impressive win over McKinney.
Other boxing sites are of the same opinion that Naz should fight Luisito http://www.boxing-monthly.co.uk/content/9805/two.htm who at this point was even listed in one boxing site's P4P list http://insideboxing.com/poundforpound.html
Hamed would proceed to fight top British featherweight Paul Ingle and Espinosa next should he win over Cesar Soto. Well, Espi would later lost his WBC belt to Soto who then would fight Hamed in a wrestling match. Hamed lifted the prestigious green belt and would later drop it like a hot potato. This is strange. He has two options on that belt, 1) fight the mandatory or 2) fight Espinosa (who was promised another shot by WBC prez Sulaiman upon the influence of Rudy Salud). In my opinion, Hamed considered the WBC mandatory challenger Guty Espadas Jr. (a tall & natural featherweight) and Espinosa as both no-names and High Risk/Low Reward fights and opted to fight then IBF Superbantam champ Vuyani Bungu, safer and yet another small fighter moving up in weight. SJ a writer of WorldofBoxing.com has the same opinion http://p210.ezboard.com/fworldofboxing6324frm3.showMessage?topicID=342.top ic

At this point, Hamed's hitlist alleges that Espinosa is "cagey at fightin Naz".
http://olympia.fortunecity.com/michaels/460/preview.html
Smoke screen.

muay

11-21-2004, 11:11 PM

There are people in this thread actually claimg Hamed ducked Freddy Norwood thats how bad this is getting.

Those Fabulous Feathers
by Darius Ortiz
March 15, 2003

http://www.boxingobserver.com/article.php?cat=theweighin&id=10&pagenumber=2

Naseem Hamed's reign over the featherweight class is remembered more for the fighters he ducked, rather than those he fought. From 1997 until the Barrera fight, it can be argued that Hamed never defended his title against the toughest opponent; most didn't even consider Barrera a worthy challenger! Most boxing writers felt Naseem would walk through the Mexico City star's mauling offense and flatten him with the first straight left that landed. Very few could have imagined the 'new' Barrera would outbox and out-fox Naz for twelve rounds, replacing the left hook to the body with a pulsating jab and a slick uppercut. Had 'Prince' known which Barrera he'd be sharing the ring beforehand with, he would have mostly likely skipped that fight as well.

No one's saying Naseem's era of featherweights rivaled that of Salvador Sanchez' or Willie Pep's; all I'm saying is 'The Prince' fought Kevin Kelley, Wilfredo Vasquez, Paul Ingle and Vuyani Bungu, when he should really have been challenging Luisito Espinosa, Junior Jones (back in 1997, fresh off consecutive wins over Barrera), Freddie Norwood and Juan Manuel Marquez.

Verbl_Kint

11-21-2004, 11:45 PM

Just how good was Hamed?

Not good enough. The Prince was overrated, overhyped and overpaid.

Sir_Jose

11-21-2004, 11:59 PM

My god, could you have found more shamelessy bias articles?

Old Espinosa tapes? You mean likes the ones against Juan Jose Estrada,Israel Contreras,Alejandro Gonzalez you know...the ones where he was being brutally KO'ed or maybe your talking about a tape of his fight with Cesar Soto, just the one fight he had to win to get his shot to fight Hamed. Hey what happend in that fight?....Oh thats right.

You actually think that sites p4p list has an ounce of credability? that list was one of the biggest jokes I have ever seen. As of January they didn't even have Bernard Hopkins rated in there top 10, but put Gatti at 8th. They have Hopkins in now, but at 4 with James-freaking-Toney ahead of him.

they also had Miguel Angel Gonzales rated in the top ten when they has Espinosa rated. That tells you right there how flat out awful they are.

If you knew anything about the situation Junior Jones and Hamed were going to fight eachother. They were on the same card for Hamed's American debut and thats how HBO was marketing Hamed/Jones, but what happend?...Oh thats right Junior Jones was KO'ed that night.

Freddie Norwood was the John Ruiz of the Featherweight division, he won by wrestling not boxing. His 1st fight with Cermeno was so bad HBO refused to show it, pretty much everyone on the planet thought he lost to Marquez. His fight with Gainer is one of the most disgusting boxing matches I have ever seen.

miron_lang

11-22-2004, 12:00 AM

Let's see the chronology here :

Dec. 11, 1995 - Espinosa UD Mantecas Medina to become WBC featherweight champ
Sept. 30, 1995 - Hamed TKO8 Steve Robinson, to become WBO featherweight champ
March 1, 1996 - Espinosa KO4 Cobrita Gonzalez, 1st defense (WBC)
March 16, 1996 - Hamed TKO8 Said Lawal, 1st defense (WBO)
July 6, 1996 - Espinosa UD Cesar Soto, 2nd defense (WBC)
June 8, 1996 - Hamed TKO2 Daniel Alicea, 2nd defense (WBO)
August 31, 1996 - Hamed TKO 11 Mantecas Medina, 3rd defense (WBO)
October 2, 1996 - Espinosa TKO8 Nobutoshi Hiranaka, 3rd defense (WBC)
November 9, 1996 - Hamed TKO2 Daniel Molina, 4th defense (WBO)
February 8, 1997 - Hamed TKO8 Tom Johnson, 5th defense (WBO) and annexed the IBF featherweight belt
May 3, 1997 - Hamed KO1 Billy Hardy, 6th defense (WBO), 1st (IBF)
May 17, 1997 - Espinosa TD8 Mantecas Medina, 4th defense (WBC)
June 19, 1997 - Hamed TKO2 Juan Cabrera, 7th defense (WBO), 2nd (IBF)
October 11, 1997 - Hamed KO7 Jose Badillo, 8th defense (WBO)
December 6, 1997 - Espinosa TKO6 Carlos Rios, 5th defense (WBC)
December 19, 1997 - Hamed KO4 Kevin Kelley, 9th defense (WBO)
April 18, 1998 - Hamed TKO7 Wilfredo Vazquez, 10th defense (WBO)
August 15, 1998 - Espinosa TD11 Juan Carlos Ramirez, 6th defense (WBC)
October 31, 1998 - Hamed UD12 Wayne McCullough, 11th defense (WBO)
November 11, 1998 - Espinosa TKO2 Kennedy McKinney, 7th defense (WBC)
April 10, 1999 - Hamed KO11 Paul Ingle, 12th defense (WBO)
May 15, 1999 - Espinosa (L)UD12 Cesar Soto, lost WBC featherweight belt
October 22, 1999 - Hamed UD12 Cesar Soto, annexed WBC featherweight belt

So who fought 90% of the top featherweights of the 90's here?
Espinosa - Medina(51-6-0), Gonzalez(37-3-0), Soto(43-6-2), Rios(39-0-1), Ramirez(14-0-0)
Hamed - Medina(52-7-0), Kelley(47-1-2), Soto(54-7-2), Vazquez(50-7-2)

Espinosa beat-up Medina and Soto first before Hamed fought them, and he TKO'd Cobrita Gonzalez who TKO'd Kelley. He never had the chance to lay his hands on Vazquez (who was WBA champ that time), IMO he would've handled him the same way he did to Kennedy McKinney who were small featherweights (they're natural 118~122 lbers).

All I'm saying here is, Hamed wasn't the best featherweight during the 90's, there was another champ named Luisito Espinosa who was unknown but nonetheless a very good fighter also. Perhaps with more skills than the very popular Prince Hamed. Hamed has more fights obviously, but that's a no brainer, Espinosa is based in the Phils. and getting fights here in Asia is a lot more difficult. BTW, it is not BS that Hamed avoided Espinosa and Riath Hamed offered to promote his fights, i heard it from the lips of Mr. Ronnie Nathanielsz, a writer of this site, commentating in one of Espinosa's fights.

Going back to the topic of this thread, i rate Naseem Hamed an eight (8), annexing the WBO, WBC & IBF belts is something.
I Agree ! ;) :cool:

muay

11-22-2004, 12:05 AM

Well Jose, you'll have your opinion (I respect that) and i'll keep mine. Opinions are like *******s, we always have one. Case closed on this one. Peace.

rsl

11-22-2004, 12:08 AM

Those Fabulous Feathers
by Darius Ortiz
March 15, 2003

http://www.boxingobserver.com/article.php?cat=theweighin&id=10&pagenumber=2

Naseem Hamed's reign over the featherweight class is remembered more for the fighters he ducked, rather than those he fought. From 1997 until the Barrera fight, it can be argued that Hamed never defended his title against the toughest opponent; most didn't even consider Barrera a worthy challenger! Most boxing writers felt Naseem would walk through the Mexico City star's mauling offense and flatten him with the first straight left that landed. Very few could have imagined the 'new' Barrera would outbox and out-fox Naz for twelve rounds, replacing the left hook to the body with a pulsating jab and a slick uppercut. Had 'Prince' known which Barrera he'd be sharing the ring beforehand with, he would have mostly likely skipped that fight as well.

No one's saying Naseem's era of featherweights rivaled that of Salvador Sanchez' or Willie Pep's; all I'm saying is 'The Prince' fought Kevin Kelley, Wilfredo Vasquez, Paul Ingle and Vuyani Bungu, when he should really have been challenging Luisito Espinosa, Junior Jones (back in 1997, fresh off consecutive wins over Barrera), Freddie Norwood and Juan Manuel Marquez.
You hit it right on the mark, he fought guys that were rated highly or were champions but that was only on paper, those fighters were made for Hamed and obviously like you pointed he considered Barrera as one of 'em. Now the 4 fighters that he should've fought, I'm not saying he couldn't beat any of 'em but they would've given him several loses or major fits if he fought 'em, but w/ the exception of Norwood who I think Hamed may have had his way with easily, Espinosa who does have a weak chin but has overall good boxing skills, JMM might've made it even look easier in defeating Hamed compared to Barrera, who I felt was too cautious and would've liked him to have opened up more and Lastly I think Jones probably would've had the best chance on beating Hamed and may have had the best chance of defeating the " Frog" by k.o., I mean Jones's jab sorta reminds me of Hearns's jab and he had a terrific right hand straight down the pipe which Barrera had no answers for whatsoever and we all know what the " Frog" is most susceptible to and it was the punch that usually either knocked him down or backed him up in several of his fights and that was a straight punch and I'd have to say that "Poison" had the best straight punch at that time. Now I'm looking at this as if it was back in that era and at that time, I didn't know that Gainer had no fight in him, but I also think Gainer would've had a chance in beating Hamed, I mean just the length of Gainer's reach and height 5'9 vs. 5'3 and Gainer had decent speed and a good jab.

miron_lang

11-22-2004, 12:15 AM

My god, could you have found more shamelessy bias articles?

WTF?! at least he got some articles to prove his point. Unlike yourself who rely so much on your 'expert' opinion :cool:

Sir_Jose

11-22-2004, 12:20 AM

WTF?! at least he got some articles to prove his point. Unlike yourself who rely so much on your 'expert' opinion :cool:

what are these articles?

just other peoples opnions and some are so shamelessy biased there laugh out loud funny. My god just cause a fighter is Asain doesn't make him god.

FACT Espinosa had to beat Soto to get his shot at Hamed...and he LOST

FACT Jones had to beat McKinney to get his shot at Hamed...and he LOST

chilly9876

11-22-2004, 03:14 PM

i agree jose, espinosa was offered the fight but he lost,had he still fought espinosa instead of soto,you would have all said he ducked soto!

MikeHunt

11-22-2004, 03:19 PM

Do your own homework you! Watch the Prince fight Kevin Kelly and you tell us what you think? You little wipper snappers piss me off!!

m00ks

11-22-2004, 03:25 PM

what are these articles?

just other peoples opnions and some are so shamelessy biased there laugh out loud funny. My god just cause a fighter is Asain doesn't make him god.

FACT Espinosa had to beat Soto to get his shot at Hamed...and he LOST

FACT Jones had to beat McKinney to get his shot at Hamed...and he LOST

lol FACT is that DLH lost against Tito but youll always contest that it aint all black and white> opinions are opinions> you impose yours way too much man> chill out

m00ks

11-22-2004, 03:29 PM

Do your own homework you! Watch the Prince fight Kevin Kelly and you tell us what you think? You little wipper snappers piss me off!!

I saw 2 fighters unable to keep themselves off the canvas. was I suppose to be impressed?

J !

11-23-2004, 05:08 AM

I saw 2 fighters unable to keep themselves off the canvas. was I suppose to be impressed?

come on mooks, that a daft comment we all like a good slugfest including yourself cos you aint a big fan for his silky skills now are you.

jeez lose the bias man. :cool: ;)

WinkyFan

11-23-2004, 06:08 AM

Naz was a great fighter with a style so unique you'll rarely see anything like it again. Conifence was a big part of his style combined with accuracy, speed and power. Any fighter who racks up as many wins as he did while fighting with his hands down and wanting his opponents to try and hit him deserves a medal in my opinion. The key to everything about his style was his legs, thats where he used to generate most of his punches as he used to jump into alot of his hits to get the most potential out of them. Like most fighters of boxing history he met his versa in Barrera and every fighter has a versa. It's a shame he let that defeat break him so bad because that wasn't the end of the road for him, it was far from it. In his comeback after the Barrera fight i was ashamed how the fans treated him. Just because he didn't produce a KO and wanted to build his confidence back up they all booed him and made him feel like a enemy. That annoyed me very much because Naz oozed off positive vibes and chants from the crowd as his style was based on confidence and those shameful idiots whoever they were that day should be ashamed of themselves. They weren't true boxing fans.

Peace....

J !

11-23-2004, 06:25 AM

agree but not with the fans bit.

Naz loved to brag, that aint the fans fault if he didnt back it up but at this point Naz was such an agotistical ****head who was listening far too much to Raith instead of his trainers.

The fans knew he wasnt paying full attention to his boxing as he a hadnt for MAB and wouldnt be palmed off with Naz's usual braggart style.
This was the second time in a row they had been told this was going to happen only for the oppostie to transpire. A boring points win over European level opposition when a early mid round ko had been spouted by Naz for weeks in the run up.

Naz only has himself to blame, you dont call the guys who pay their hard earned cash to support you, ignorant, cos you put in an under par perfomrance, sorry, Naz can blame himself.

In additon to this he had been ****ing about for months deciding whether to box on or not, then his treatment of brodie where he kept him signed and hanging on for 18 months only to decide to retire was nothing short of disgusting.

Naz was a great fighter but as a human being he had a lot of flaws ultimately these finished his career.

Tyson'scolon

11-23-2004, 11:33 AM

Definitely a P4P puncher, but not much of a technician..

J !

11-23-2004, 11:36 AM

Definitely a P4P puncher, but not much of a technician..

i agree but you missed off onvce he left Brendan Ingle. He was a lovely boxer and decent technician under Ingles tuition. Post this his combinations fell away for single shot preference, shame.

aaalex

11-23-2004, 01:25 PM

After fight Hamed wifh Barrera. Hamed don't come back...

m00ks

11-23-2004, 04:51 PM

come on mooks, that a daft comment we all like a good slugfest including yourself cos you aint a big fan for his silky skills now are you.

jeez lose the bias man. :cool: ;)

lol I know I'm just knacking on him. But no I am not biased, I would admit to Naz's skill but never his "greatness" cuz I've never considered him that amazing. The Barrera lost just cemented my opinion of him. The quality of opposition that he faced we're "ok" for me at most, but then again that's just me.

t_tsuguri

11-23-2004, 05:17 PM

The thing that pisses me off about Naz, was not so much his ****iness or the fact that he looked like a prick in the ring and as a person, but the fact that after he fights a real opponent and loses, he quits. What kind of fighter is that? Instead of shutting up all the 'yes' men around him and re-evaluating his career he just up and leaves. It's how champions react to defeat that makes them great...and Naz just quit

loangunZ

11-23-2004, 05:20 PM

I think the way he fought was interesting and compelling for people to watch. At any moment he could tko anyone, and he ahd a great chin all his knockdowns came from him leaning back after throwing a series of punches which caused him to be offbalanced. I think had he rematched barrera and had not had the whole glove dispute again naz would probably come out on top. I think if he got berrara to be a brawler as in his moreles fights then a boxer which he did against naz the outcome would be totaly different.

bigdlb12

11-23-2004, 05:22 PM

barrera handle him good, I voted 7/10

`STEELHEAD

11-29-2004, 01:41 PM

paul750

04-21-2005, 04:06 PM

Kimmy

04-21-2005, 05:43 PM

when his brother took over as manager he went from prince to pauper. :mad:
This is a very significant point. Brendan Ingle, Hameds first trainer was such an important factor in his style. Hamed got out of control and dumped him and the weaknesses started to show. Only when Barrera fought him were they exposed.
However, I don`t think it would have made a difference in the Barrera fight, just maybe Hamed would have been a little more competitive, but still have lost!

Macca

04-23-2005, 09:26 AM

Good to watch, unorthodox.
Fought lots of crap in the UK that made his legend alot bigger than it really was.
In the USA was shown for what he really was when he met talent.
Lots of good boxers have come back from losses or bad nights, he showed his style by disappearing for an extended period only to reappear once against a nobody.
He was nowhere near as good as his "HYPE" machine made out.
Where has he been for the last several years?
They say he is gunna make a come back as a heavyweight (all those Kebabs and Fish & Chips) :)

Shaolin Bushido

04-23-2005, 09:32 AM