View Full Version : How would Frazier fare in today's climate?


!! Anorak
11-16-2004, 02:44 PM
He's got a lot of heart, but in today's world of larger, stronger heavyweights, how would he cope?

drag0n_
11-16-2004, 04:42 PM
IMO he'd whoop every hw in the current divison

stu
11-16-2004, 06:09 PM
Have to agree. He's got more heart than any of the current heavyweights. I have just seen a documentary about the Thrilla and Manilla, and apparently he was practically blind in his left eye before the fight even started!

AJ53
11-16-2004, 06:21 PM
he would definitely win one of the titles

THRILLAinmanila
11-16-2004, 06:22 PM
Joe Frazier would knock out every single heavy out there right now.
He's in a totally different class .

BoxingPromoter
11-16-2004, 06:51 PM
Looking at frasier's record and watching several of his fights,

he fought and beat some top heavyweight(Ali,Chuvalo,Ellis,Quarry)

fighters. In addition to this, joe had the courage and heart of

a champion. when fighting George Foreman the first time, joe had

the balls to rise from the canvas six times before the referree

stopped the fight. Now, who in the heavyweight division today

has that type of mentality besides holyfield. When tyson was

knocked out by d.williams he just laid there on the canvas and

was counted out. So, the answer to your question is; Joe frasier

would fare pretty well in today's heavyweight climate and would

sure be tough enough to beat fighters like ruiz, byrd,w.klitscho,

McCline,etc,etc. :mad:

psychopath
11-16-2004, 11:39 PM
Smoki'n Joe will be the undisputed Heavyweight Champ. Today's fighters are bigger but are never competitive after the 6 round . . . as compared to the old days where heavy weights slug it out like the lighter divisions until the last bell of the 15th round. :cool:

realtim
11-17-2004, 06:34 AM
Joe would whup these young pretenders today. What kinda question was that neway.

JOM'S
11-17-2004, 07:55 AM
current day as in today, like what pso Jr said he will be undisputed HW Champ...

realtim
11-17-2004, 09:33 AM
I knew what the question was it was just a stupid one. the question should really be how many of todays fighters would survive in Smokin Joes era. The deepest era of talent. He would have whupped them all.

pinaldino
11-17-2004, 09:54 AM
He's got a lot of heart, but in today's world of larger, stronger heavyweights, how would he cope?

Watch Ali-Frazier 1 and tell me if Frazier wouldn't KO everybody at Heavy right now.
Against the very big guys he would just duck/block and destroy the body with his incredible left hand!

lsk
11-17-2004, 02:26 PM
I think he woud do werry well

tony
11-17-2004, 02:29 PM
It wouldn't even be competitive, Frazier would smoke them all.

!! Anorak
11-17-2004, 04:16 PM
I knew what the question was it was just a stupid one. the Pardon me :)

I was thinking more of the recent past... wouldn't Lewis be too big? And would a peak Tyson take him apart?

dempseyfire
11-17-2004, 04:55 PM
Frazier would destory Lewis on acitivity alone. A fat Mercer and old Holyfield made Lewis very fatigued in their fights. Lewis would have a heart attack when faced with Frazier's smoking attack. Lewis had so much success b/c he beat HWs with worse stamina and less skilled then he was (Tua, Morrison, Grant, Botha etc.) Frazier was a different breed altogether.

Too big? watch Frazier against Mathis, perhaps the most agile, quick-handed 'super' HW in history (who would also be champ today) and Frazier annihilates him

Silencer
11-19-2004, 12:59 AM
It would be the same...

marvdave
11-19-2004, 01:26 AM
the last two guys I can remember post seventies that could have competed with Frazier would be Holmes and Tyson..in primes

todays jokers wouldn't have the heart or stamina to go 15 hard rounds with Smokin Joe. V.Klitschko would put up the best fight out of them, but wouldn't be able to keep Joe's pace the entire fight.

Mr. Ryan
11-19-2004, 01:25 PM
I would've loved to see Lennox Lewis vs. Joe Frazier. What styles would've meshed better?

marvdave
11-19-2004, 03:05 PM
I would've loved to see Lennox Lewis vs. Joe Frazier. What styles would've meshed better?

thats a good matchup, but probably my two dream fights at heavyweight...
#1
1971-74 Ali vs- 1980 Larry Holmes. What a great match this would have been. Even though neither guy is a bomber, it would be great.

#2
1971 Joe Frazier vs 1988 Mike Tyson..BOMBS AWAY!!

!! Anorak
11-19-2004, 07:54 PM
So by inferral, are we saying 1973 George Foreman was a really good fighter?

phallus
11-19-2004, 10:12 PM
Foreman was good in 73, but Joe was scared of him. Foreman dominated Joe psychologically, i don't think Joe was ever scared of anyone else. Foreman just had Frazier's number. But if Smokin Joe were in his prime today, he'd be the undisputed champ! To see the proof, just watch Frazier - Ali 1 or Smokin' Joe's destruction of WBA ( i think?) champ Jimmy Ellis.
Elllis was a good fighter, and very similar in size to todays boiz ( he was bigger than Joe ) and it was a one sided slaughter from the beginning

Foreman
11-19-2004, 11:17 PM
Anorak, '73 foreman was THE greatest fighter. Any other heavy who ever laced them up gets crushed if they get into the ring in Kingston Jamacia.

As far as Frazier faring today? He beats any and all comers since Holmes was in his prime, with ease. The best fight of all would be Frazier v Holyfield. Holy would fight so hard that he would be hospitalized or die. Tyson, Lennox etc would all wish that they had died. Period end of story.

dempseyfire
11-20-2004, 11:30 PM
Anyone who thinks Frazier would be too small need to get a copy of Mathis-Frazier. Mathis had quicker hands and better skills then any of today's big guys, had good power, and still was just overwhelmed by Frazier. Joe Frazier in his prime was a force of nature-he simply could not be discouraged and he never stopped throwing HARD punches . . .

Argentina
11-22-2004, 10:35 PM
He's got a lot of heart, but in today's world of larger, stronger heavyweights, how would he cope?
I'd have to say that he would take a lot of pummeling from Vitali before getting inside, wearing him out, and probably TKO'ing him. Now this is the Vitali of today, future results might bring further insight. I definitly see him beating aeveryone else, with a fight with Byrd interesting because I'm not so sure he'd knock him out, in fact I don't think he would. Byrd's stood up to VItali, Wladimir, Tua, and Ibeabuchi, who did knock him out.

Ivansmamma
11-23-2004, 06:06 AM
Joe would become the undisputed Heavyweight champion, He would crush all opposition today.

joho
11-27-2004, 10:05 AM
frazier would woop all opponents today

paulmmv
11-27-2004, 10:59 PM
i dont think Frazier would do very well if his prime was now i mean can you imagine frazier fighting klitschko

foremanfan
11-30-2004, 03:01 PM
I think Joe against Toney would be a good match and against Holyfield an absolute war.

plexmc
11-30-2004, 06:28 PM
IMO he'd whoop every hw in the current divison
i feel u on that

Kid Achilles
12-01-2004, 01:34 PM
He would fare extremely well. He had too many things going for him. His combination of power, handspeed (compared to todays lumbering oxes), chin and incredible heart and stamina as well as underrated defensive moves negate the size difference.

realtim
12-02-2004, 08:40 AM
Ppl cant question joes heart stamina punching power left hook his tenacity, joe was an all round great fighter.
He's an all time great a HOF. He beat Ali in his prime nobody could have beat Fraizer that nite.
That's when he was at his best.
I have more respect for joe than these HWS today.

Xecutioner
12-02-2004, 08:28 PM
i still dont know how joe had the stamina for 15 rounds to fight the way that he did, constantly bobbing and weaving, winging out almost nothing but power shots. you see the heavyweights today they look winded atter 6 rounds of doing nothing. :confused: joe crushes all of them

Mikie
12-02-2004, 08:55 PM
His left hook would have made him filthy rich today.

Mr. Violence
12-06-2004, 02:13 AM
he would actually do pretty good in my humble opinion

Imira
03-03-2005, 07:06 PM
Looking at the state of the HW division today, there's no question that Joe would, no doubt, dominate the HW division. I noticed that Kid Achillies made a good point about Joe's defense. Most people don't give Joe enough credit for his head movement on his way inside.

leff
03-03-2005, 07:41 PM
He would whop the entire divison, except VK i think VK has a slight chance at ud him if he keeps him away with his jabb.

SonnyG8R
03-03-2005, 08:29 PM
He would obviously do well in the current HW division, since he did pretty well during the golden era of heavyweights.

czars_salad
03-03-2005, 09:32 PM
frazier would do good today, probably would win a belt


and all other heavyweights of his time -- ali, foreman, spinks, holmes, will compete and definitely will win a belt or two in this division

wmute
03-04-2005, 03:32 AM
he would do what he did at the time until 1973, dominate the division,

remember he lost only to ali and foreman. On very close fights with ali, and foreman was just impossible for him to beat, given his style (d'amato used to show tyson footage of that fight to show him the wrong style to use with foreman)

can I imagine him fighting VK?...

yes I can

handspeed, no cuts, impossible workrate, constant pressure (the only guy who ever rocked him was foreman), monster left hook.

the question is "what would klitscko do?"

keep him off jabbing?
are his hands fast enough to hit joe moving head? ali's hands were not fast enough to hit him regularly

knock him out? does vitali have foreman power? cos that what it takes to stop frazier

klitscko chin would definitely hold up, I think he has a GREAT chin, so the fight wold go the distance (or be stopped on cuts)

I would bet my money on frazier vs any of today's heavies

Kid Achilles
03-04-2005, 04:18 AM
wmute,

I agree with everything you said about Frazier except the part about only Foreman rocking him. Several guys rocked Frazier. Bonavena had him down several times. Ali had him hurt. Even journeyman Ron Stander buckled his knees in their fight. Frazier had a solid chin but it was not as good as Ali, Holmes, Marciano, etc's.

wmute
03-04-2005, 04:54 PM
wmute,

I agree with everything you said about Frazier except the part about only Foreman rocking him. Several guys rocked Frazier. Bonavena had him down several times. Ali had him hurt. Even journeyman Ron Stander buckled his knees in their fight. Frazier had a solid chin but it was not as good as Ali, Holmes, Marciano, etc's.

yes his chin is not marciano, holmes or ali, I agree

but

didn't Ali hurt him only late in the 3rd fight if I am right?
if I remember correctly, that would have nothing to do with today's division, where no one would keep such a high connect-ratio for so many rounds and close his eyes

bonavena had him down twice in one round when joe had only a dozen fight, the point with pasttime fighters is that some even lost some fights they definitely should not here and there, still when it was time to deliver the goods the champions showed to be champions in an even more impressive way than today's fighters with no losses on the record

a problem might be that he was a slow starter, but since prime tyson is not around in this division, this would not make it a problem

and I have to admit I never saw the stander fight,
people say frazier was not training very hard after the ali fight
(in fact he never fought at 205 again) and that also affected his performance with foreman (I don't believe this would have been different, though)

Kid Achilles
03-04-2005, 05:43 PM
I think the thing about Joe was that he wasn't too difficult to hurt but nearly impossible to stop. You would really have to shoot him to keep him down and I suspect if the ref didn't stop it, and he was allowed to keep getting up, the Foreman fights would have been several rounds longer than they were. They would have ended with Joe in a coma. That's the only way I see him not getting up from a knockdown; he didn't know how to quit.

You can say that Tyson (I use this example as a a contemporary fight known for having a good chin and power) had a better chin in that it was harder to phase Tyson with punches but look at how Tyson reacts to hard shots. He goes into a shell. Notice in Tyson-Lewis where Tyson comes out like a lion in the begining of each round and goes out like a lamb. The guy hated to get hit. He had no confidence in himself. Whenever he got tagged it seemed like he'd say to himself "****, I am ****ing up, I need to stop making mistakes" and he'd stop taking chances. His punch outpout would decrease significantly, and he also seemed to get hit more often. Frazier on the other hand always fought the same regardless of what the other guy was doing. In fact, it's almost like receiving punches motivated him and made him fight with more ferocity.

That's the difference in their reaction to getting hit. Tyson would get hit by shots that didn't seem to hurt him that badly and yet they still had a detrimental effect on his workrate while when Joe got hurt he would just get pissed off and turn up the heat.

So even though I don't think that Frazier had a great chin, certainly not as solid as a guy like Tyson, he was so fierce and always in such good shape that it didn't matter. In the end, it all boils down to the fact that he was more comfortable getting hit than most fighters.

chase
03-04-2005, 06:10 PM
frazier would not live with any good heavy wieght of today way 2 small, his son was his size moved liked him, was him in many ways, just was to little for the big boys of today mike tyson nearly killed him.14 stone fighter are to light

buff_mike10
03-04-2005, 10:31 PM
frazier would not live with any good heavy wieght of today way 2 small, his son was his size moved liked him, was him in many ways, just was to little for the big boys of today mike tyson nearly killed him.14 stone fighter are to light
Thats funny. Comparing Joe to Marvis, thats just uncalled for. Joe was five times the brawler that his son was, his son was a boxer forced to brawl. If a prime Joe fought Tyson there would have been a totally different outcome. That fight would have went the full distance, and probably been a split decision. Don't compare the two though, thats insane

franker01
04-26-2005, 12:21 AM
Agree with the last post. Mike Munoz just got passed over in the NFL Draft even though he's bigger than his dad. His dad Anthony is an NFL HOF member and one of the best ever at his position. Don't confuse Mike with Anthony or Marvis with Joe!

dangerousity
04-26-2005, 05:31 PM
sorry to disagree with everyone :) but i don't think joe would beaten lennox lewis.
Lewis in my opinion was too big and to strong for joe, he used his height to perfection and would outbox joe with his jab for all for 12 rounds.
Lewis was a very strong puncher especially with that right hand and would of certainly hit joe throughtout the whole fight. Frazier didn't have the best chin in the world (better than lewis, i know!) but he was destroyed twice by george foreman and although lewis probably wouldn't of overwhelmed him like george he would of won by a unanimous decision.
Lewis in this fight has all the advantages, he's taller than joe by about 6 inches and outweighs him by 40-50 pounds.
If Joe and Tyson had a boxing match i'd still think tyson would win.

cms
04-26-2005, 06:04 PM
frazier wouldnt do good with the bigger taller fighters today because of his style: take shots to give shots. Someone like vitali k. would k-o joe frazier very easily just because of his style, someone like danny williams could probably easily beat frazier also because of his style of fighting

Imira
04-29-2005, 12:48 AM
Ok. If you believe that VK and Lennox could keep Joe out with their jabs and slow hands then you obviously haven't seen Joe in action or you saw him but didn't pay close enough attention to how he fights.

kapersky
04-29-2005, 02:46 AM
holyfield,tyson,lewis and vitali would gave him trouble. but he still would do very well.

GROCERYGETTERS
05-11-2005, 02:32 AM
Frazier would beat everyone and unify the title if he fought in his prime today.

GROCERYGETTERS
05-11-2005, 02:35 AM
Lewis has a suspect chin. I think Lewis would get Kayoed if Frazier ever got inside.

Vitaly imo still needs to prove himself... his best fight is one in which he lost with that eye and whether or not he was ahead on points, Lewis caused that cut with a punch. Other than that Corrie Sanders and Kirk Johnson aren't even close to the opposition Frazier has faced.

dionysusolympus
05-11-2005, 10:15 AM
Joe Frazier, as he is now, can still swing though. I got clocked by him personally with a right hook in the jaw during a training session. As for current fighters, I don't know. But he's still gotta a whole lot of heart and fight in him...

Verbl_Kint
05-11-2005, 11:39 AM
Smokin Joe would still be smokin. He probably would have unified the belts in under 2 years.

The Troll
05-11-2005, 12:50 PM
Frazier against V Klistchko: Frazier by stoppage TKO 11 Frazier would wear him down and never stop going forward he would taste the canvase maybe a couple times but his stamina would make the difference he would volume punch Klistchko to oblivion and occasionaly land the big left hook wearing Klistchko down to be stopped in the 11th

Frazier against W KListchko: Frazier Ko 4

Frazier agaisnt prime Holyfield 1992: Holyfield by UD in fight of the year, Frazier tasts teh canvas off a big uppercut in the 7th. Making the difference in the fight.

Frazier against Golota 1996: Frazier by Golota quitting in 11 after being frustarted that Frazier took so many shots and been knocked down so many times and is still coming forward and still so strong and starting to take over and hurting Golota bad while Golota is out of gas. Golota self defeating personality prevails he quits while ahead on the cards by like 14 points in the end of round 11 in a 12 fight. He is ahead by 14 points from winning every round but 1 and knocked Frazier down 3 times.

Frazier vs current Tyson: Frazier TKO 5

Frazier vs Byrd: Frazier by KO 9

Frazier vs John Ruiz: Frazier UD

Frazier vs Lennox Lewis: Frazier by KO 10 Lewis wins alot of rounds more or less keeping Frazier at bay with the jab but one big shot, one big left hook catches Lewis off guard in the 10th. Lewis in this fight tries to fight an overly cautious fight and at times Frazier's inside work hurts Lewis which aids him knocking Lennox out in the 10th. If Lewis threw more straight rights in addition to the left jab he would have knocked Frazier out but he fought to conservatively. He was afraid to throw the right because of the counter left hook of Frazier, and afraid to commit to any big power punches.

kapersky
05-11-2005, 04:06 PM
Frazier against V Klistchko: Frazier by stoppage TKO 11 Frazier would wear him down and never stop going forward he would taste the canvase maybe a couple times but his stamina would make the difference he would volume punch Klistchko to oblivion and occasionaly land the big left hook wearing Klistchko down to be stopped in the 11th

Frazier against W KListchko: Frazier Ko 4

Frazier agaisnt prime Holyfield 1992: Holyfield by UD in fight of the year, Frazier tasts teh canvas off a big uppercut in the 7th. Making the difference in the fight.

Frazier against Golota 1996: Frazier by Golota quitting in 11 after being frustarted that Frazier took so many shots and been knocked down so many times and is still coming forward and still so strong and starting to take over and hurting Golota bad while Golota is out of gas. Golota self defeating personality prevails he quits while ahead on the cards by like 14 points in the end of round 11 in a 12 fight. He is ahead by 14 points from winning every round but 1 and knocked Frazier down 3 times.

Frazier vs current Tyson: Frazier TKO 5

Frazier vs Byrd: Frazier by KO 9

Frazier vs John Ruiz: Frazier UD

Frazier vs Lennox Lewis: Frazier by KO 10 Lewis wins alot of rounds more or less keeping Frazier at bay with the jab but one big shot, one big left hook catches Lewis off guard in the 10th. Lewis in this fight tries to fight an overly cautious fight and at times Frazier's inside work hurts Lewis which aids him knocking Lennox out in the 10th. If Lewis threw more straight rights in addition to the left jab he would have knocked Frazier out but he fought to conservatively. He was afraid to throw the right because of the counter left hook of Frazier, and afraid to commit to any big power punches.

how can frazer knock out both tyson and lewis but not holyfield? :confused: tyson and lewis would make pannkake of frazier.

The Troll
05-11-2005, 04:14 PM
how can frazer knock out both tyson and lewis but not holyfield? :confused: tyson and lewis would make pannkake of frazier.

It said Frazier vs Current Tyson: 233 pounds age 39

And Lewis lost because he fought to conservative of a fight and was afraid to commit to powerpunches in fear of being caught with Fraziers left hook as a counterpunch.

McGoorty
08-07-2011, 06:29 AM
Foreman was good in 73, but Joe was scared of him. Foreman dominated Joe psychologically, i don't think Joe was ever scared of anyone else. Foreman just had Frazier's number. But if Smokin Joe were in his prime today, he'd be the undisputed champ! To see the proof, just watch Frazier - Ali 1 or Smokin' Joe's destruction of WBA ( i think?) champ Jimmy Ellis.
Elllis was a good fighter, and very similar in size to todays boiz ( he was bigger than Joe ) and it was a one sided slaughter from the beginning
Joe would Smoke 'Em today.

JAB5239
08-07-2011, 05:20 PM
Foreman was good in 73, but Joe was scared of him. Foreman dominated Joe psychologically, i don't think Joe was ever scared of anyone else.

I believe that Foreman has actually stated that it was he who was afraid going into their first fight.

ghns1133
08-07-2011, 05:22 PM
smokin joe by ko

/

Capaedia
08-08-2011, 01:42 AM
I can just imagine it now.

"Dear god what am I fighting?"

People are quick to mention the size of modern fighters, but size can actually be a disadvantage sometimes. Frazier used his height to give Ali the worst accuracy of his entire career, I don't see why taller, slower fighters wouldn't have the same problem.

And they're going to have an interesting time trying to block his bodyshots, larger target afterall, and with Joe Frazier that's where you're going to have a big problem.

The biggest problem however, is the one they'd have with trying to get rid of him. The first Foreman fight is actually a great example in this case. 6 knockdowns in a two-round fight. Frazier was ready to get back up and go back for more everytime.
Which of todays heavyweights could or would do that? More importantly how would they deal with this guy who is constantly pounding away at them but refusing to be put away? I know a good portion of them would fold like paper.

BigStereotype
08-08-2011, 03:01 AM
Obviously, we're looking at Frazier vs. the K-bros with this. He crushes Eddie Chambers :rofl:

Against Wlad, I think he could pressure him and out-work him inside and stop him around the 7th or 8th. He'd probably hit the canvas, but I really don't trust Wlad under pressure. He'd crumple.

Vitali is an entirely different story. He'd match Frazier's workrate and I DO think he'd be able to keep him outside...sorta. But he wouldn't be so outmanned inside that it would be as crippling as it was to Wlad. Frazier probably sees the last bell, but I'd bet pretty big on Vitali here.

GoogleMe
08-08-2011, 04:58 AM
I don't really think Frazier was that good a boxer, he had a big heart, a good chin and a good left hook. But he wouldn't stand a chance against Wladimirs/Vitali's great developed jabs, physiques and POWER.

The Surgeon
08-08-2011, 07:51 AM
Frazier would be The World Champion im sure of that, David Haye gets run outta the ring, Arreloa gets stopped by the 6th, Adamek gets the hell beaten outta him and the Klitchko brothers? Wlad folds like origami under pressure, he looks so panic stricken its unreal and very few fighters in history brought the type of relentless and effective pressure Smokin Joe Frazier brought! I see him slipping most of the jabs Wlad shoots out and coming whaleing back with hooks to the body taking the limited steam out of his taller opponent before stopping him at some point with Klitchko scrambling up off the floor on Bambi legs.
Vitali holds a better shot but hits with less authority, Joe steams in at him and Vitali punching down at the bobbing Frazier has limited success while Frazier works his body over, two tough guys here but Frazier might have been the toughest man alive while Klitchko has some biitch in him, we know that from the Bryd fight. Klitchko has a good chin tho and can pull away from most head shots anyway and can hold on when need be so i see Vitali lasting the distance but Joe Frazier coming out on top

bojangles1987
08-08-2011, 08:00 AM
I don't really think Frazier was that good a boxer, he had a big heart, a good chin and a good left hook. But he wouldn't stand a chance against Wladimirs/Vitali's great developed jabs, physiques and POWER.

Yes he would. Ali had the same reach as the Klitschkos, and a better jab, and better movement, yet he got inside all the same. His problem wouldn't be getting inside on either Klitschko, it would be staying there. I confident he would be able to do so against Wlad, not so much against Vitali.

GoogleMe
08-08-2011, 09:59 AM
Yes he would. Ali had the same reach as the Klitschkos, and a better jab, and better movement, yet he got inside all the same. His problem wouldn't be getting inside on either Klitschko, it would be staying there. I confident he would be able to do so against Wlad, not so much against Vitali.
You guys just rate it as anyone with a punch would kill Wladimir??? Wladimir has WAY more power in both hands than Ali. Frazier would not get on the inside, he'd be knocked out early, kinda like the Foreman fight.

Wladimir LOVES it when people comes forward, cause then they feel the pain x 2. He expected Haye to come forward, that's why he were passive.

bojangles1987
08-08-2011, 10:18 AM
You guys just rate it as anyone with a punch would kill Wladimir??? Wladimir has WAY more power in both hands than Ali. Frazier would not get on the inside, he'd be knocked out early, kinda like the Foreman fight.

Wladimir LOVES it when people comes forward, cause then they feel the pain x 2. He expected Haye to come forward, that's why he were passive.

1. I never said he would kill Wlad.

2. Wlad's power only comes into play when he is confident in the pace of the fight, he often just paws with his jab early in the fight until he is comfortable. Frazier would never let him get comfortable.

3. Wlad loves fighters who come forward because those fighters don't know how to bob and weave and slip the jab, and don't know how to fight inside when they get there.

Frazier would get inside on Wlad, he got inside on everyone. Wlad would not be the hardest fighter to get inside on Frazier ever fought. What would determine the fight at that point is how Wlad handled the pace and the inside fighting, which he has never proven he can handle well. That's why I would take Frazier.

The_Demon
08-08-2011, 10:26 AM
1. I never said he would kill Wlad.

2. Wlad's power only comes into play when he is confident in the pace of the fight, he often just paws with his jab early in the fight until he is comfortable. Frazier would never let him get comfortable.

3. Wlad loves fighters who come forward because those fighters don't know how to bob and weave and slip the jab, and don't know how to fight inside when they get there.

Frazier would get inside on Wlad, he got inside on everyone. Wlad would not be the hardest fighter to get inside on Frazier ever fought. What would determine the fight at that point is how Wlad handled the pace and the inside fighting, which he has never proven he can handle well. That's why I would take Frazier.

Very good post,anybody who thinks Wlad would handle Frazier is tripping,i couldnt think of a worse style match-up for WK

Sugarj
08-08-2011, 11:59 AM
You guys just rate it as anyone with a punch would kill Wladimir??? Wladimir has WAY more power in both hands than Ali. Frazier would not get on the inside, he'd be knocked out early, kinda like the Foreman fight.

Wladimir LOVES it when people comes forward, cause then they feel the pain x 2. He expected Haye to come forward, that's why he were passive.


Whilst I agree that the matchup with Wlad is interesting, the reason that Foreman had a relatively easy time with Frazier was down to two things:

1) His uppercut
2) His ability to stand his ground and trade with Frazier

Wlad rarely uses an uppercut and he rarely stands his ground to trade with opponents.

This would be no second round demolition!

The Surgeon
08-08-2011, 12:05 PM
You guys just rate it as anyone with a punch would kill Wladimir??? Wladimir has WAY more power in both hands than Ali. Frazier would not get on the inside, he'd be knocked out early, kinda like the Foreman fight.

Wladimir LOVES it when people comes forward, cause then they feel the pain x 2. He expected Haye to come forward, that's why he were passive.
He were passive vs Haye because thats what he does. EVERYTIME out. He's a timid kitten when infact he is capable of being a beast. Foreman hits harder than Wlad and is probably a top 2 hardest puncher ever and he really committed to landing his bombs and following them up - something Klitchko would Not do or even attempt to. And even vs The Monsterous Foreman Joe got up again and again and wanted more, Klitchko wouldnt worry Frazier, Frazier would snarl at him, spit in his eye then kick his ass...
Its not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of fight in the dog and trust me Joe Frazier has a whole lot more fight in him than Wladimir Klitchko does

Frazier wouldnt even dream of quitting and hitting survival mode after a few rounds of jabs like Klitchko's soft opposition does, his drive, commitment, endurance and stamina along with his relentlessness, his power and his body work would see him win this one imo

BigStereotype
08-08-2011, 12:10 PM
Frazier would be The World Champion im sure of that, David Haye gets run outta the ring, Arreloa gets stopped by the 6th, Adamek gets the hell beaten outta him and the Klitchko brothers? Wlad folds like origami under pressure, he looks so panic stricken its unreal and very few fighters in history brought the type of relentless and effective pressure Smokin Joe Frazier brought! I see him slipping most of the jabs Wlad shoots out and coming whaleing back with hooks to the body taking the limited steam out of his taller opponent before stopping him at some point with Klitchko scrambling up off the floor on Bambi legs.
Vitali holds a better shot but hits with less authority, Joe steams in at him and Vitali punching down at the bobbing Frazier has limited success while Frazier works his body over, two tough guys here but Frazier might have been the toughest man alive while Klitchko has some biitch in him, we know that from the Bryd fight. Klitchko has a good chin tho and can pull away from most head shots anyway and can hold on when need be so i see Vitali lasting the distance but Joe Frazier coming out on top

Saying that Klitschko has some ***** in him is a little harsh don't you think? I mean, he hasn't showed anything resembling that since and it's kind of hard to fight if you can't lift your arm. Have people fought through that sort of stuff before? Maybe, but there's a wide gap between "biggest heart ever" and "a little ***** in him." That being said, Frazier has the biggest heart ever. I can see Vitali slicing and blowing Frazier's face up with a torrent of punches and maybe stopping him late on a TKO. The gameplan I'm thinking of is like against Arreola, constantly throwing off the backfoot. That could blunt Frazier's offense a bit and give him chances to land some bombs coming in. Vitali doesn't usually commit to his punches, but when he does, watch out.

The Surgeon
08-08-2011, 12:20 PM
Saying that Klitschko has some ***** in him is a little harsh don't you think? I mean, he hasn't showed anything resembling that since and it's kind of hard to fight if you can't lift your arm. Have people fought through that sort of stuff before? Maybe, but there's a wide gap between "biggest heart ever" and "a little ***** in him." That being said, Frazier has the biggest heart ever. I can see Vitali slicing and blowing Frazier's face up with a torrent of punches and maybe stopping him late on a TKO. The gameplan I'm thinking of is like against Arreola, constantly throwing off the backfoot. That could blunt Frazier's offense a bit and give him chances to land some bombs coming in. Vitali doesn't usually commit to his punches, but when he does, watch out.

I dont think its harsh, it happened and we all saw it, he has some biitch in him. Bottom Line. Im not calling him a biitch tho, he should guts and heart vs Lewis for example, im just highlighting the difference between a regular championship fighters heart and the heart of Smokin Joe Frazier! Honestly it annoyed me a touch after Haye vs Wlad Vitali saying to the sky team how unexceptable it was to make an excuse and that he would rather die in the ring than quit when infact he has already quit with only minutes to go in a fight he was winning...

Vitali has heart tho. And he has a shot at beating Frazier but imo he will struggle with the flat out pressure, bobbing defence and sheer workrate along with the body punching of the far smaller Frazier

BigStereotype
08-08-2011, 12:25 PM
I dont think its harsh, it happened and we all saw it, he has some biitch in him. Bottom Line. Im not calling him a biitch tho, he should guts and heart vs Lewis for example, im just highlighting the difference between a regular championship fighters heart and the heart of Smokin Joe Frazier! Honestly it annoyed me a touch after Haye vs Wlad Vitali saying to the sky team how unexceptable it was to make an excuse and that he would rather die in the ring than quit when infact he has already quit with only minutes to go in a fight he was winning...

Vitali has heart tho. And he has a shot at beating Frazier but imo he will struggle with the flat out pressure, bobbing defence and sheer workrate along with the body punching of the far smaller Frazier

Yeah, Frazier's bobbing could really bother him, considering he's already punching about three feet down. And I've never seen him against a flat-out pressure fighter like that, probably because there's not many heavyweights who can do that. It would be a unique experience for the both of them.

RubenSonny
08-08-2011, 12:48 PM
Frazier knocks out both brothers, Vitali lasting longer.

GoogleMe
08-08-2011, 05:22 PM
Wladimir would lift Frazier off the ground with his uppercut - it's deadly. Wladimirs left hook is even deadlier, just too bad he does not use it more, he'd have won all his latest fights before the end of the 4th round.

You guys overrate old guys. Wladimir wins fights with his jab alone - that's how good he is, why take chances then???

JAB5239
08-08-2011, 05:28 PM
Wladimir would lift Frazier off the ground with his uppercut - it's deadly. Wladimirs left hook is even deadlier, just too bad he does not use it more, he'd have won all his latest fights before the end of the 4th round.

You guys overrate old guys. Wladimir wins fights with his jab alone - that's how good he is, why take chances then???

Because he fights guys who stand in front of him and don't know how to slip a jab. Wlad has a good jab, but lets not overrate him, his comp is awful.

SBleeder
08-08-2011, 06:00 PM
There isn't a single heavyweight champion since Holmes who I'd even give a chance against Foreman.

Sugarj
08-08-2011, 06:24 PM
There isn't a single heavyweight champion since Holmes who I'd even give a chance against Foreman.

I'd give a chance to prime Holyfield and prime Bowe. Granted, Foreman would be favorite.

Both had great chins, prime Foreman was no 12 round fighter. These two would surely be risky.

The Surgeon
08-08-2011, 06:27 PM
I'd give a chance to prime Holyfield and prime Bowe. Granted, Foreman would be favorite.

Both had great chins, prime Foreman was no 12 round fighter. These two would surely be risky.
Both guys get hit too much to hang with prime George imo even if they had good chins. Bowe was a punchbag at times man

Ziggy Stardust
08-08-2011, 06:34 PM
Wladimir would lift Frazier off the ground with his uppercut - it's deadly. Wladimirs left hook is even deadlier, just too bad he does not use it more, he'd have won all his latest fights before the end of the 4th round.

You guys overrate old guys. Wladimir wins fights with his jab alone - that's how good he is, why take chances then???

As opposed to you overrating the current cesspool of heavyweights? :thinking9:

Poet

bojangles1987
08-08-2011, 07:55 PM
Wladimir would lift Frazier off the ground with his uppercut - it's deadly. Wladimirs left hook is even deadlier, just too bad he does not use it more, he'd have won all his latest fights before the end of the 4th round.

You guys overrate old guys. Wladimir wins fights with his jab alone - that's how good he is, why take chances then???

Did it ever occur to you that Wlad has nothing other than the jab, a straight right, and the occasional left hook? What makes you think he can just pull the ability to move better, fight inside, and throw punches he never throws effectively out of his ass? That's like me saying Ali will kill Wlad to the body, when there is nothing to suggest Ali would do so.

GoogleMe
08-09-2011, 06:28 AM
As opposed to you overrating the current cesspool of heavyweights? :thinking9:

Poet
I don't think that the heavyweight division now is as awful as you guys think. Chambers, Solis, Povetkin, Haye, Adamek, Samuel Peter, Thompson and so on, are solid heavyweights and they all get beat (Adamek and Povetkin is left for a good beating, but their time will come). Don't tell me that the old heavyweight had incredible movement from what you've seen, cause they really did take a punch.
The sport has evolved, Wladimir and Vitali are a clear example of that. I agree that the division is not as strong as it were when Ali ruled the division, but I think it's compareable to Holmes' time. Vitali and Wladimir is an example of good nutrition and new trainingsmethods and the evolution of the sport. People hate that it's eastern europeans that rule the heavyweight division at the moment, it's cool - I like the flashyness of American boxing aswell. Frazier were a good boxer and fighter, I just don't see his "unbelieveable good movement" come into effect. Wladimir is TOO strong for him, and yes it's easy to just say strong, but Frazier would get destroyed Foreman style vs both brothers. That's my point of view.

Ziggy Stardust
08-09-2011, 03:23 PM
I don't think that the heavyweight division now is as awful as you guys think. Chambers, Solis, Povetkin, Haye, Adamek, Samuel Peter, Thompson and so on, are solid heavyweights and they all get beat (Adamek and Povetkin is left for a good beating, but their time will come). Don't tell me that the old heavyweight had incredible movement from what you've seen, cause they really did take a punch.
The sport has evolved, Wladimir and Vitali are a clear example of that. I agree that the division is not as strong as it were when Ali ruled the division, but I think it's compareable to Holmes' time. Vitali and Wladimir is an example of good nutrition and new trainingsmethods and the evolution of the sport. People hate that it's eastern europeans that rule the heavyweight division at the moment, it's cool - I like the flashyness of American boxing aswell. Frazier were a good boxer and fighter, I just don't see his "unbelieveable good movement" come into effect. Wladimir is TOO strong for him, and yes it's easy to just say strong, but Frazier would get destroyed Foreman style vs both brothers. That's my point of view.
^^^^^ I believe I've already answered that with this post >>>>>
The problem is that evolution (biological or otherwise) isn't a process of improvement per se.....it's a process of change but those changes aren't always for the better. The vast majority of changes that you see evolving in practically every field are lateral changes: Neither better nor worse, just different.

There is also the problem of the limitations of any given field of endeavor: You essentially max out the potential improvements that can be made. There's only so many ways you can throw a left hook and those were figured out long ago. It's not like technology which is pretty opened ended (though it certainly has it's share of dead ends in certain specific fields).....but even technology has historically gone backwards at times (remember the Dark Age?).

New England
08-09-2011, 05:31 PM
knocks out wladimir messy and late

his last fight (no joke, i think it would end his career)

and outworks vitali to become undisputed champ

short reign, retires undefeated after experiencing a dearth of competition, goes into show biz

:cool2:

GoogleMe
08-09-2011, 05:56 PM
knocks out wladimir messy and late

his last fight (no joke, i think it would end his career)

and outworks vitali to become undisputed champ

short reign, retires undefeated after experiencing a dearth of competition, goes into show biz

:cool2:
Outworks Vitali? Even an old Vitali can throw up to 1k punches a fight, that's not gonna happen. I can see a chance of him beating Wladimir by a more suspect chin, but Vitali - not a chance, he's a BEAST. You gotta remember that his only "real" loss is to Lewis, and he took that fight on a VERY short notice - especially comparing to the fighter he were going up against. A shoulder injury took 4 GREAT years away from Vitali.

I like what you say Poet, but you gotta understand that todays techonology and evolution of training facilities have made fighters stronger, faster and more endurant. We see it in ALL sports, especially in the Olympics. I just don't believe in that old school fighters just dominates the fighters of now. Vitali and Wladimir would be hell for anyone in history, not saying they beat all - far from, but people tend to not give them their credit. We'll never know what would happen, but don't overestimate the guys from the past. I respect all era's, heck Duran is my favorite fighter of all times. I belive Ali would beat Wladimir also, and he's the greatest HW of all time by my ratings. Frazier does not stand a chance, maybe 1/5 he beats Wladimir 0/100 he beats Vitali. I rest my case.

Ziggy Stardust
08-09-2011, 08:06 PM
Outworks Vitali? Even an old Vitali can throw up to 1k punches a fight, that's not gonna happen. I can see a chance of him beating Wladimir by a more suspect chin, but Vitali - not a chance, he's a BEAST. You gotta remember that his only "real" loss is to Lewis, and he took that fight on a VERY short notice - especially comparing to the fighter he were going up against. A shoulder injury took 4 GREAT years away from Vitali.

I like what you say Poet, but you gotta understand that todays techonology and evolution of training facilities have made fighters stronger, faster and more endurant. We see it in ALL sports, especially in the Olympics. I just don't believe in that old school fighters just dominates the fighters of now. Vitali and Wladimir would be hell for anyone in history, not saying they beat all - far from, but people tend to not give them their credit. We'll never know what would happen, but don't overestimate the guys from the past. I respect all era's, heck Duran is my favorite fighter of all times. I belive Ali would beat Wladimir also, and he's the greatest HW of all time by my ratings. Frazier does not stand a chance, maybe 1/5 he beats Wladimir 0/100 he beats Vitali. I rest my case.

More endurant? Is that's why today's fighters throw fewer punches and STILL gas out in fewer than 12 rounds let alone going 15? And who the hell are the Klits faster than? Primo Carnera? They sure as hell ain't faster then the vast majority of top Heavyweights that I've seen. And btw, Boxing is NOT track and field. In boxing skill trumps athleticism.....as it does in most organized sports that aren't track and field related.

Poet

The_Demon
08-09-2011, 08:31 PM
As opposed to you overrating the current cesspool of heavyweights? :thinking9:

Poet

Haha well said

paulsinghnl
08-09-2011, 11:13 PM
the Klitschkos have a laser like jab which is very fast and set up that right hand very deviously, hits really hard. but if George Foreman's been ranked as history's hardest punchers and Frazier kept getting up, Frazier would be able to take their jabs and left hook 'em down to a fine powder IMO.

I love the Klitschko's, they're very boring but super effective, fast on their feet, hard, underrated fast combinations, but Wlad without his warrior heart will lose for sure. Vitali would lose too because i see Lewis getting beat by Frazier, thus Frazier would work hard against Vitali, he was a beast.... Smokin' Joe!!!

McGoorty
08-10-2011, 07:01 AM
I don't think that the heavyweight division now is as awful as you guys think. Chambers, Solis, Povetkin, Haye, Adamek, Samuel Peter, Thompson and so on, are solid heavyweights and they all get beat (Adamek and Povetkin is left for a good beating, but their time will come). Don't tell me that the old heavyweight had incredible movement from what you've seen, cause they really did take a punch.
The sport has evolved, Wladimir and Vitali are a clear example of that. I agree that the division is not as strong as it were when Ali ruled the division, but I think it's compareable to Holmes' time. Vitali and Wladimir is an example of good nutrition and new trainingsmethods and the evolution of the sport. People hate that it's eastern europeans that rule the heavyweight division at the moment, it's cool - I like the flashyness of American boxing aswell. Frazier were a good boxer and fighter, I just don't see his "unbelieveable good movement" come into effect. Wladimir is TOO strong for him, and yes it's easy to just say strong, but Frazier would get destroyed Foreman style vs both brothers. That's my point of view.
Look I generally support Poet in this, but the Heavyweight division is much different now. I like Adamek as a fighter, he's one of the best P4P fighters I've seen in years, when this LITTLE guy fought Golota, I feared for Adameks life. Adamek was simply awesome in that fight. But HE"S TOO SMALL. I think it's time for a Super Heavyweight division, if that happens in time, Adamek could win the HW title, but not while these super giants are everywhere. Pound for pound these giants are inferior to the smaller fighters, the lean on each other and fight at a snails pace. I can't be bothered watching them, and I'm sick of people trying to compare men half their size (to the giants) like the Dempseys, a 6 ft 7in Dempsey would be invincible, of that I'm sure, a 6 ft 7in Dempsey kills Ali. There, I said it..As far as from Light HW down though, they are EXACTLY the same weight as they've always been, but today's fighters are mostly what old-timers would call a preliminary fighter, either a 4 rounder, or 6 at best. But the elite are still great, there's just not as many, this is where I agree with Poet and the others who think along those lines.

bojangles1987
08-10-2011, 07:06 AM
Look I generally support Poet in this, but the Heavyweight division is much different now. I like Adamek as a fighter, he's one of the best P4P fighters I've seen in years, when this LITTLE guy fought Golota, I feared for Adameks life. Adamek was simply awesome in that fight. But HE"S TOO SMALL. I think it's time for a Super Heavyweight division, if that happens in time, Adamek could win the HW title, but not while these super giants are everywhere. Pound for pound these giants are inferior to the smaller fighters, the lean on each other and fight at a snails pace. I can't be bothered watching them, and I'm sick of people trying to compare men half their size (to the giants) like the Dempseys, a 6 ft 7in Dempsey would be invincible, of that I'm sure, a 6 ft 7in Dempsey kills Ali. There, I said it..As far as from Light HW down though, they are EXACTLY the same weight as they've always been, but today's fighters are mostly what old-timers would call a preliminary fighter, either a 4 rounder, or 6 at best. But the elite are still great, there's just not as many, this is where I agree with Poet and the others who think along those lines.

There have been huge heavyweights before. The only reason there are so many mid to high 200 pound heavyweights these days is because outside of the Klitschkos, who are in great shape, those heavyweights are fat. They are not in the optimum shape they should be to have their best stamina, speed, power, etc.

Really, heavyweights aren't that much bigger.

McGoorty
08-10-2011, 07:11 AM
the Klitschkos have a laser like jab which is very fast and set up that right hand very deviously, hits really hard. but if George Foreman's been ranked as history's hardest punchers and Frazier kept getting up, Frazier would be able to take their jabs and left hook 'em down to a fine powder IMO.

I love the Klitschko's, they're very boring but super effective, fast on their feet, hard, underrated fast combinations, but Wlad without his warrior heart will lose for sure. Vitali would lose too because i see Lewis getting beat by Frazier, thus Frazier would work hard against Vitali, he was a beast.... Smokin' Joe!!!
Foreman is one of the great punchers, that just proved how tough Frazier was, just not tough enough to stay up.

GoogleMe
08-10-2011, 08:42 AM
More endurant? Is that's why today's fighters throw fewer punches and STILL gas out in fewer than 12 rounds let alone going 15? And who the hell are the Klits faster than? Primo Carnera? They sure as hell ain't faster then the vast majority of top Heavyweights that I've seen. And btw, Boxing is NOT track and field. In boxing skill trumps athleticism.....as it does in most organized sports that aren't track and field related.

Poet
There's a difference if you train to be more explosive for 12 rounds, or to be more edurant for the 15 rounds. They'd be able to change their routines.
The brothers are VERY explosive and yes their jab is fast and very powerful. Heck I believe that Wladimir can knock Frazier down with his jab alone.
I agree that he could cause him trouble, but I think both brothers beats Frazier. It just annoys me that people on this board only praise the fighers of old times, and like they'd beat the brothers and other Europeans with ease. I may be blinded by the fact that I'm so annoyed, but I just don't see tiny Frazier do the job.

I hope you know how important roadwork is for a fighter, and yes explosiveness in your legs from the track and squats are VERY IMPORTANT.
I know boxing is not running, I've had about 80 amateur fights myself by now, so I have an idea of what goes on in the ring.

GoogleMe
08-10-2011, 08:47 AM
Look I generally support Poet in this, but the Heavyweight division is much different now. I like Adamek as a fighter, he's one of the best P4P fighters I've seen in years, when this LITTLE guy fought Golota, I feared for Adameks life. Adamek was simply awesome in that fight. But HE"S TOO SMALL. I think it's time for a Super Heavyweight division, if that happens in time, Adamek could win the HW title, but not while these super giants are everywhere. Pound for pound these giants are inferior to the smaller fighters, the lean on each other and fight at a snails pace. I can't be bothered watching them, and I'm sick of people trying to compare men half their size (to the giants) like the Dempseys, a 6 ft 7in Dempsey would be invincible, of that I'm sure, a 6 ft 7in Dempsey kills Ali. There, I said it..As far as from Light HW down though, they are EXACTLY the same weight as they've always been, but today's fighters are mostly what old-timers would call a preliminary fighter, either a 4 rounder, or 6 at best. But the elite are still great, there's just not as many, this is where I agree with Poet and the others who think along those lines.
Are you joking me??? You can't just say "if he were that heigh or weighed that he'd kill him", come on??? You know that your movement changes with height and added weight = you become way less mobile due to the center of gravity. That's like saying, Manny Pacquiao is the greatest fighter ever, cause if he added weight, he'd be the FASTEST hardest hitting heavyweight ever...

SBleeder
08-10-2011, 09:05 AM
I like what you say Poet, but you gotta understand that todays techonology and evolution of training facilities have made fighters stronger, faster and more endurant.

Heavy bags have gotten heavier?

McGoorty
08-10-2011, 09:14 AM
Are you joking me??? You can't just say "if he were that heigh or weighed that he'd kill him", come on??? You know that your movement changes with height and added weight = you become way less mobile due to the center of gravity. That's like saying, Manny Pacquiao is the greatest fighter ever, cause if he added weight, he'd be the FASTEST hardest hitting heavyweight ever...
I was trying to explain how I thought of Dempsey as P4P. Pacquiao had nothing to do with it. And I don't think comparing someone to an opponent who is 25 kg heavier. Here's a great Little Heavyweight, just to prove that they can fight at a higher pace, this guy brung it, EVERY TIME,..... Here's some Smokin' Joe for your enjoyment.-------------------------<iframe width="425" height="349" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/oHwlJzm7uyo?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>