View Full Version : Why isnt Harry Wills....


DarchinyFAN
05-15-2009, 11:49 PM
ever mentioned alongside the other black heavyweights of the early 20th century? Everytime I hear people talk about the color barrier era in black boxing I hear about Sam Langford, Jack Johnson, Joey Jeanette, and even Sam McVae, but I rarely hear about Wills. I know he came along a few years after these other fighters, but the gap wasnt that large (only 5 years younger than McVea, 6 years younger than Langford, and 10 years younger than Jeanette)...... He still had to face the same barriers these other guys faced, and he maintained a good record against his more mentioned counterparts.

vs Jeanette (1-0-2)
vs McVae (2-2-0)
vs Langford (12-2-1)

Total - 15-4-3

Maybe they do mention his name and I am not paying close enough attention, but I just hear the names of others mentioned more. Any input as to why?

Also, if any of you historians can tell me more about Wills that'd be appreciated also.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/3416175.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=6D80FA23B50A7A1477E480DDCAC87BD2A55A1E4F32AD3138

billionaire
05-16-2009, 06:00 PM
all you need to know is jack dempsey ducked him.....and faked a photo op knowing his baby handlers would never let them fight....

JAB5239
05-17-2009, 03:04 AM
all you need to know is jack dempsey ducked him.....and faked a photo op knowing his baby handlers would never let them fight....

The fight was signed twice, so I guess he may need to know a little bit more than hot air and bull****.

Obama
05-17-2009, 12:16 PM
The fight was signed twice with no intentions of being made.

Jack Dempsey can hide behind the fact that they didn't want him to defend his title against Black contenders, but BEFORE he won the title he only faced ONE, I repeat, ONE credible Black contender. And guess what? He DREW with the guy.

And it's not like Dempsey wasn't fighting credible fighters before he met Willard. He beat the following leading up to that fight:

Andre Anderson
Willie Meehan
Gunboat Smith
Carl Morris
Bill Brennan
Billy Miske
Fred Fulton
Battling Levinsky *Light Heavyweight

Fred Fulton was his best opponent, even better than a post-prime 3 year layoff Willard. So really, if the guy was fighting the best white fighters around, why doesn't he have wins over at least SECOND TIER Black fighters?

Consider it a HW assignment to find the one credible Black guy he fought...should be easy considering I told you it ended in a draw.

antk
05-17-2009, 01:01 PM
thanks for the info guys
The fight was signed twice with no intentions of being made.

Jack Dempsey can hide behind the fact that they didn't want him to defend his title against Black contenders, but BEFORE he won the title he only faced ONE, I repeat, ONE credible Black contender. And guess what? He DREW with the guy.

And it's not like Dempsey wasn't fighting credible fighters before he met Willard. He beat the following leading up to that fight:

Andre Anderson
Willie Meehan
Gunboat Smith
Carl Morris
Bill Brennan
Billy Miske
Fred Fulton
Battling Levinsky *Light Heavyweight

Fred Fulton was his best opponent, even better than a post-prime 3 year layoff Willard. So really, if the guy was fighting the best white fighters around, why doesn't he have wins over at least SECOND TIER Black fighters?

Consider it a HW assignment to find the one credible Black guy he fought...should be easy considering I told you it ended in a draw.

LondonRingRules
05-17-2009, 01:21 PM
The fight was signed twice with no intentions of being made.

** Well, Obamy, it goes like this: Need to find another name because you're definitely dragging down the reputation of our new president.

Of course, you could be Rush in pink pantyhose blithering on about whatever silly stream of conciousness sparks his single neuron, but, regardless, Jack signed to fight Wills but the finances and politics to make such a fight were not in place.

Jack signing to fight Wills was a big upgrade from Johnson NOT signing to face Wills, Jeanette, McVea, and Langford when he was in Paris and needed money. Nor did Willard.

The new age kiddies that are starting to take over the history section say the darnednest things, like Dempsey ducked Greb, ducked Norfolk, ducked Godfrey, ducked Gaines, apparently ducking everyone of the era with a pulse or a teddy bear.

Well, my sweet sillyboys, it's fact that Jack ducked everyone for 3 yrs while in Hollywood, being busy making more money than anyone in the history of sports and doing it without a manager and promoter leading him around with a ring through his nose.

Even ducked Big Bill Tate, his sparring partner and friend that he invited to Hollywood to be his "butler" in spite of Jack never wanting or needing a butler.

In the meantime, me thinks you will ignore the more than a dozen era champs and contenders to the title that Big Pants Larry Holmes failed to match up with until he lost his title in spite of there being no politics or finances as obstacles. My dear, if the "heroes" of your generation don't hold up, what business do you have criticizing past generations whom you clearly have no historical knowledge of?

Step away from the name sweetie, and honour the legend of Wills by embracing his name, something like Black Panther and come back asking why instead of poorly slinging what is rebounding on you.

Oh, and a belated Happy Birthday Harry, born 5-15-1889........:birthday:

Southpaw16BF
05-17-2009, 02:52 PM
The new age kiddies that are starting to take over the history section say the darnednest things, like Dempsey ducked Greb, ducked Norfolk, ducked Godfrey, ducked Gaines, apparently ducking everyone of the era with a pulse or a teddy bear.

You continue to be one of the most biased posters around here, and once again you are wrong.

Right, like I told you last time Dempsey did duck a Greb showdown, funny how you never got back to me. I'am a big Dempsey fan, but you can't deny he ducked Harry Greb.

What is it, you just don't like Greb or you don't know much about him which will proably be the case. Like I said in previous posts A Harry Greb and Dempsey fight was on and everyone had agreed to it, and the only person needing to accept was Dempsey, and he rejected.

Greb was calling out Dempsey even when he wasn't Champion in 1919, But Dempsey just wound't accept his offer, he chose to Battling Levinsky instead, a man Greb had just defeated. Greb would defeat many of opponets, and then them opponets such as Tommy Gibbons and Battling Levinsky would go on to fight Dempsey.

After Dempsey won the Title, most newspapers were calling for this fight to be made.

They had many of proposed fights, on July 21 1919, a headline read ''Greb Dempsey fight probabale, two promoters offer purses. The proposed fight was due to take place on labour day, the fight was to be a 10 round fight, lots of promoters were lining up to set this fight up.


Greb wanted the fight so much, beliving there was no dout he could beat Dempsey. At this time no heavyweight had defeated Greb, Greb was destroying heavyweights. When Greb and his manager Red Mason were asked about the fight, Mason said Greb is more than willing, he is asking for the bout, Mason said it's all up to Dempsey.

The Pittsburgh post wrote ''So its up to Dempsey. and its going to be difficlut for Dempsey to say ''go get a reputation to Greb, as Greb has licked just as many heavyweights as Dempsey.

Dempsey would then enter talks win Bill Brennan. A man Greb had already defeated. Greb had beaten Brennan in Feb/March time, and you think Dempsey would of wanted to fight the conqueror in these fights, Dempsey chose to fight the loser. After dempsey defeated Brennan, Brennan would go onto say there is no dout in his mind Greb would defeat Demspey.

The botom line is the reason a Harry Greb and Jack Dempsey fight never took place was because Dempsey never wanted it, go and read Fearless Harry Greb for prove.....

In 1953 in a sports magazine, there was a article on the subject of how Dempsey just refuses to fight Greb, written by author Bill Stern ''The Man Dempsey wound't fight''

Talk about disrepect, this little fella you say....Greb was beating all the best heavyweights in the world, and this little fella you say, split Dempseys left eye open, and in the first spar, Dempsey said he will have to call it a day

The crowd who were watching, all loved Greb, Greb was said to look as strong as a young bull. And after a few more sparring sessions, that Greb also got the better of, Demspey just didn't want to know.

Hey, Greb even use to say to Dempsey,to his face, when you gonna fight me you bum''

So face fact, Dempsey ducked Greb full stop. And in you spare time why don't your try and do a little bit of Research about the old times and Especailly Harry Greb.........

Obama
05-17-2009, 03:29 PM
** Well, Obamy, it goes like this: Need to find another name because you're definitely dragging down the reputation of our new president.

Of course, you could be Rush in pink pantyhose blithering on about whatever silly stream of conciousness sparks his single neuron, but, regardless, Jack signed to fight Wills but the finances and politics to make such a fight were not in place.

Jack signing to fight Wills was a big upgrade from Johnson NOT signing to face Wills, Jeanette, McVea, and Langford when he was in Paris and needed money. Nor did Willard.

The new age kiddies that are starting to take over the history section say the darnednest things, like Dempsey ducked Greb, ducked Norfolk, ducked Godfrey, ducked Gaines, apparently ducking everyone of the era with a pulse or a teddy bear.

Well, my sweet sillyboys, it's fact that Jack ducked everyone for 3 yrs while in Hollywood, being busy making more money than anyone in the history of sports and doing it without a manager and promoter leading him around with a ring through his nose.

Even ducked Big Bill Tate, his sparring partner and friend that he invited to Hollywood to be his "butler" in spite of Jack never wanting or needing a butler.

In the meantime, me thinks you will ignore the more than a dozen era champs and contenders to the title that Big Pants Larry Holmes failed to match up with until he lost his title in spite of there being no politics or finances as obstacles. My dear, if the "heroes" of your generation don't hold up, what business do you have criticizing past generations whom you clearly have no historical knowledge of?

Step away from the name sweetie, and honour the legend of Wills by embracing his name, something like Black Panther and come back asking why instead of poorly slinging what is rebounding on you.

Oh, and a belated Happy Birthday Harry, born 5-15-1889........:birthday:

I'm amazed you managed to write all this when it has nothing to do with my post. You even make references to things you think I stand for or have said in the past, when you have probably never seen me post before. It's amazing. :rofl::rofl:

Kid McCoy
05-17-2009, 11:45 PM
Dempsey fought numerous black fighters; in addition to John Lester Johnson, there was Battling Johnson, Anamas Campbell, George Christian. There were probably others too, given that many of Dempsey's opponents are unknown or untraceable.

A raw Dempsey could have faced Langford in 1916, but understandably thought better of it. No way was he ready for Langford then and Dempsey said as much. By the time he became champion, Langford was well long in the tooth and had been beaten by Fulton, who Dempsey beat in turn.

Wills was the only relevant black heavyweight Dempsey should have faced, and he signed to fight him twice. Through no fault of his own, the fight fell through due to the politics of the day - New York for instance called for the fight but was not prepared to stage it due to the fear of race riots. Who else was there? Incidentally, how many black heavies did Joe Louis or Jack Johnson defend against?

Obama
05-18-2009, 12:02 AM
Dempsey fought numerous black fighters; in addition to John Lester Johnson, there was Battling Johnson, Anamas Campbell, George Christian and a few others too.

A raw Dempsey could have faced Langford in 1916, but understandably thought better of it. No way was he ready for Langford then and Dempsey said as much. By the time he became champion, Langford was well long in the tooth and had been beaten by Fulton, who Dempsey beat in turn.

Wills was the only relevant black heavyweight Dempsey should have faced, and he signed to fight him twice. Through no fault of his own, the fight fell through due to the politics of the day - New York for instance called for the fight but was not prepared to stage it due to the fear of race riots. Who else was there? Incidentally, how many black heavies did Joe Louis or Jack Johnson defend against?

Forget about title defenses. Titles weren't defended against Black people, we all get that. Doesn't excuse Dempsey prior to being Champion however. You mentioned all the Black fighters he fought, however, John Lester Johnson was the ONLY CREDIBLE opponent. The rest never beat anyone worthwhile in their entire careers, so how could they be credible? He fought 1 credible Black Heavyweight, and he drew with him.

Who were the other Black Heavyweights he could have fought besides Wills and Langford? Well let's see....

At the top of the list, Joe Jeanette and Sam McVea.

Further down the list, Jeff Clark, Jack Thompson, Tut Jackson, etc.

Kid McCoy
05-18-2009, 12:23 AM
Okay then, how many black heavies did Joe Louis fight coming up? Not many. Primo Carnera faced more, for comparison.

When was Dempsey meant to have faced McVea and Jeannette? They were as long in the tooth as Langford by the time Dempsey was a viable contender.

Obama
05-18-2009, 02:10 AM
For whatever reason I can't see the post listed after my last one...

glidesmack
05-18-2009, 04:39 AM
Most fighters from the 20s are almost completely overshadowed by jack dempsey. Much of this is fair - jack dempsey CREATED big time boxing in america, with the help of his promoters. he put on quite a show, however you feel about him.

TheGreatA
05-18-2009, 07:14 AM
Dempsey should have faced Harry Wills, there's no question about that. He was the outstanding number 1 challenger at the time.

Wills however never blamed Dempsey and it should also be said that Wills himself was not intent on getting in the ring with some of the top contenders at the time.

Dempsey and Wills signing the contract for the fight which was eventually cancelled:

http://www.antekprizering.com/dempseywillstelegrampicii.jpeg

TheGreatA
05-18-2009, 07:25 AM
Wills is often rated above McVea, Langford and Jeannette although he isn't talked about as much. BoxingScene consensus ATG heavyweight list had him included in the top 15.

LondonRingRules
05-18-2009, 07:55 AM
Forget about title defenses. Titles weren't defended against Black people, we all get that. Doesn't excuse Dempsey prior to being Champion however. You mentioned all the Black fighters he fought, however, John Lester Johnson was the ONLY CREDIBLE opponent. The rest never beat anyone worthwhile in their entire careers, so how could they be credible? He fought 1 credible Black Heavyweight, and he drew with him.

Who were the other Black Heavyweights he could have fought besides Wills and Langford? Well let's see....

At the top of the list, Joe Jeanette and Sam McVea.

Further down the list, Jeff Clark, Jack Thompson, Tut Jackson, etc.


** Tellin' ya Obamy, need to swap out names with a more suitable nom de plume. I'm thinkin' GW Dummy is YOU.

Funny, but Jeff Clark never shows up in Jack's territory until Pueblo Colorado, Dec of 1915. Novice Dempsey almost a thousand miles away in Salt Lake City. Otherwise, when Jack first goes east and lands in NYC, Clark busy in his Panama phase dropping fights right and left against era contenders and journeymen. They don't cross regions until after Jack has been picked up by Kearns and become a top contender. However, I see he spends a lot of time in Greb's state, but no Greb, so guess Greb ducked him too, eh? I see Meehan, Gunboat Smith, and Jimmy Darcy whipped him, and does he ever beat Jack Thompson? Man, deserves the HOF just based on having to go up against a who's who's era contenders dozens of times.

Don't see Tut Jackson on Clark's record. Who ducked who? Well, given that the only Tut Jackson of note didn't start boxing until 1921, looks more like a brain infarction done tied up critical functions of your thinkin' apparatus. Guess the lot of them ducked ancient Archie Moore now, is that how it goes down in GW Dummy world?

Speaking of Thompson, pretty much the same deal with Clark. They don't cross regions until Dempsey is a contender.

Oh, and Southpooh, deary, I would never claim to be an expert on anything, but I do know that simply reciting the alphabet or ticking off your numbers don't mean you can read or write any better than GW Dummy. Jack's career was exclusively guided by Kearns once he signs Jack with later assistance from Rickard.

I could care less about how many little regional cheerleader publications you come up with hyperventilating over Greb fighting Dempsey. For every fight that ever got made in history featuring contenders, 10 get floated and shot down, boxing history 101, sweetie. Besides, Kearns never made a single match against any of Jack's hired help that I see, so tell Harry to just be happy all he was allowed stand in a queue to have his moment in the sun.

And Greb was not beating "all the best heavies" obviously, missing a book's worth of era heavies. He does have an excellent record in this period and I have no problems making him and Kid Norfolk as era contenders along with Wills, Gains, Loughran, Rosenbloom, ect that Dempsey doesn't fight, but Kearns had his reasons for not meeting Harry and the gang and it nothing to do with silly little sparring sessions or 8th grade fears of mean ol' bullies.

Jack was busy setting gate and attendance records, so Kearns and Rickard were doing their jobs in creating a financial juggernaut out of this untamed slugger out of the primordial West, or at least until Dempsey flew their nest to feather his own nest instead of theirs.

Heck, Willie Meehan was more deserving than Greb or the rest of those piffle you boys come up with. Since Jack met the man who tamed Greb, what are you really whining about? It was a promotional thing with Rickard who made Tunney into the heroic fighting Marine against the draft dodger Dempsey, brilliant stuff that the public snapped up in droves.

Have you dears done anything to keep Don King from doing worse? Of course not, you're too busy being clueless, but not glueless.

Obama
05-18-2009, 09:41 AM
Dempsey should have faced Harry Wills, there's no question about that. He was the outstanding number 1 challenger at the time.

Wills however never blamed Dempsey and it should also be said that Wills himself was not intent on getting in the ring with some of the top contenders at the time.

Dempsey and Wills signing the contract for the fight which was eventually cancelled:

http://www.antekprizering.com/dempseywillstelegrampicii.jpeg

Say what? Wills beat more top notch fighters than nearly every Heavyweight save Ali and Louis. He beat elite fighters in Langford, Jeannette, McVea, and Fulton. He beat semi-elite fighters in Meehan, Norfolk, Firpo, and Weinert. He then beat good fighters in Sailor Grande, John Lester Johnson, Jeff Clark, Bill Tate, Jack Thompson, Bartley Madden, Floyd Johnson, Gunboat Smith, and Tut Jackson. You don't get much better than that. ****s ALLLLLLL over Dempsey's resume.

Obama
05-18-2009, 09:48 AM
Okay then, how many black heavies did Joe Louis fight coming up? Not many. Primo Carnera faced more, for comparison.

When was Dempsey meant to have faced McVea and Jeannette? They were as long in the tooth as Langford by the time Dempsey was a viable contender.

For the record, Joe Louis EVENTUALLY fought 3 of the 4 best Black Heavyweights of his time. Walcott, Charles, and Bivins. He should get a lot of credit for fighting Walcott and Charles (win or lose) because they were still top notch while he was heavily faded. By the time he got to Bivins, both were washed up. Ideally, he should have fought Bivins back in the early 40s. Now, I don't really even know who to call the 4th best. I think two Light Heavyweights who dabbled in the HW division were better than any pure Heavyweight. There names would be John Henry Lewis and Archie Moore. Consequently, Louis did happen to fight Lewis, even if it was after he was going blind... Anyways, I consider John Henry Lewis better than Archie Moore AS A HEAVYWEIGHT.

TheGreatA
05-18-2009, 11:19 AM
Say what? Wills beat more top notch fighters than nearly every Heavyweight save Ali and Louis. He beat elite fighters in Langford, Jeannette, McVea, and Fulton. He beat semi-elite fighters in Meehan, Norfolk, Firpo, and Weinert. He then beat good fighters in Sailor Grande, John Lester Johnson, Jeff Clark, Bill Tate, Jack Thompson, Bartley Madden, Floyd Johnson, Gunboat Smith, and Tut Jackson. You don't get much better than that. ****s ALLLLLLL over Dempsey's resume.

From the end of 1922 to 1926 he only fought 6 times, decisioning Luis Firpo and Bartley Madden, KO'ing Charley Weinert and Floyd Johnson. Madden and Johnson were not exactly highly regarded at the time with more losses than wins in recent bouts.

Wills was not interested in fighting Tommy Gibbons, George Godfrey and Gene Tunney. Offers were made but his manager turned them down.

This was only in the 1920's however when he had already earned his shot at the title and was beginning to get older. No one can criticize his overall resume.

TheGreatA
05-18-2009, 11:34 AM
For the record, Joe Louis EVENTUALLY fought 3 of the 4 best Black Heavyweights of his time. Walcott, Charles, and Bivins. He should get a lot of credit for fighting Walcott and Charles (win or lose) because they were still top notch while he was heavily faded. By the time he got to Bivins, both were washed up. Ideally, he should have fought Bivins back in the early 40s. Now, I don't really even know who to call the 4th best. I think two Light Heavyweights who dabbled in the HW division were better than any pure Heavyweight. There names would be John Henry Lewis and Archie Moore. Consequently, Louis did happen to fight Lewis, even if it was after he was going blind... Anyways, I consider John Henry Lewis better than Archie Moore AS A HEAVYWEIGHT.

I wouldn't. Archie Moore was actually a very accomplished heavyweight with his overall record at the weight being 75 wins and only 3 losses (to Marciano, Patterson and Ali).

Lewis had notable wins over heavyweights Red Burman, Al Ettore and Johnny Risko but Moore had a much more extensive resume with wins over Nino Valdes, Bob Baker, Clarence Henry, Jimmy Bivins, Bob Satterfield, Alejandro Lavorante and others which once earned him the number 1 challenger rating at heavyweight.

Southpaw16BF
05-18-2009, 12:15 PM
Talking of Harry Willis, Harry Willis once seen Harry Greb in action, as he was sitting at ringside, this was Greb past his prime. And Willis was speachless, as he cound't belive how good and fast Greb was........Greb took Willis breath away.

Kid McCoy
05-18-2009, 12:17 PM
For the record, Joe Louis EVENTUALLY fought 3 of the 4 best Black Heavyweights of his time. Walcott, Charles, and Bivins. He should get a lot of credit for fighting Walcott and Charles (win or lose) because they were still top notch while he was heavily faded. By the time he got to Bivins, both were washed up. Ideally, he should have fought Bivins back in the early 40s. Now, I don't really even know who to call the 4th best. I think two Light Heavyweights who dabbled in the HW division were better than any pure Heavyweight. There names would be John Henry Lewis and Archie Moore. Consequently, Louis did happen to fight Lewis, even if it was after he was going blind... Anyways, I consider John Henry Lewis better than Archie Moore AS A HEAVYWEIGHT.

Be that as it may, the majority of Louis' opponents, like Dempsey's, were white. That doesn't mean Joe was ducking anyone though. If he was I'd be interested to know which quality black heavies he legitimately ducked. Same goes for Dempsey, who should he have fought?

Sure a few names can be picked out that he didn't face, but the same can also be done for virtually any other heavyweight and doesn't necessarily mean he was 'ducking' them.

Like I said, the only relevant black heavyweight Dempsey should have faced was Wills. Greb had a better argument for being avoided by Dempsey than those black fighters you listed.

Southpaw16BF
05-18-2009, 12:20 PM
Be that as it may, the majority of Louis' opponents, like Dempsey's, were white. That doesn't mean Joe was ducking anyone though. If he was I'd be interested to know which quality black heavies he legitimately ducked. Same goes for Dempsey, who should he have fought?

Sure a few names can be picked out that he didn't face, but the same can also be done for virtually any other heavyweight and doesn't necessarily mean he was 'ducking' them.

Like I said, the only relevant black heavyweight Dempsey should have faced was Wills. Greb had a better argument for being avoided by Dempsey than those black fighters you listed.

Like I've said numerous times there is no dout Jack Demspey wanted nothing to do with Harry Greb, that is fact......

Southpaw16BF
05-18-2009, 12:21 PM
And to be honest I don't think he wanted nothing to do with Wills, as after Greb had fought Flowers, Demspey said to Greb why do you give them negro's a shot at your title?

Southpaw16BF
05-18-2009, 12:26 PM
At one time Dempsey's Mindset was he wanted to retire as the undefeated Champion, he never wanted to lose his Title in the ring, this being the reason he didn't want to fight the very best out there.

He wanted to take fights he knew he could win, Demspey thought if he retired champion, this would make him alot of money when he retires as he will be a icon, but if he lost the Title in the ring, and retired without being champion, he thought he wouldn't make as much money in later age or be as recongized...or aswell remembered.

This was according to Jack Kearns. So who knows how true it could be.

Do there is no taking away the fact that Demspey was one hell of a fighter, who took boxing to all new heights in mainstream and did beat some very good fighters in his time.

Kid McCoy
05-18-2009, 12:34 PM
At one time Dempsey's Mindset was he wanted to retire as the undefeated Champion, he never wanted to lose his Title in the ring, this being the reason he didn't want to fight the very best out there.

He wanted to take fights he knew he could win, Demspey thought if he retired champion, this would make him alot of money when he retires as he will be a icon, but if he lost the Title in the ring, and retired without being champion, he thought he wouldn't make as much money in later age or be as recongized...or aswell remembered.


Do you have a source for Dempsey saying/thinking all that?

Southpaw16BF
05-18-2009, 12:41 PM
Do you have a source for Dempsey saying/thinking all that?

The Fearless Harry Greb Book, written by Bill Paxton, which I've read numerous times. I don't think I would lie over something like that.....Kid

You should pick it up, it's one of the best reads, I've read and especailly if you have a interest for Harry Greb
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/FearlessHarryGreb.jpg

Kid McCoy
05-18-2009, 12:44 PM
The Fearless Harry Greb Book, written by Bill Paxton, which I've read numerous times. I don't think I would lie over something like that.....Kid

You should pick it up, it's one of the best reads, I've read and especailly if you have a interest for Harry Greb


Okay then, does Paxton have a source for Dempsey saying/thinking all that? Just curious.

Southpaw16BF
05-18-2009, 12:46 PM
Okay then, does Paxton have a source for Dempsey saying/thinking all that? Just curious.

Yes, I can imagine so. Paxton reaserched years making the book, and is a very reliable source.

Kid McCoy
05-18-2009, 12:56 PM
Yes, I can imagine so. Paxton reaserched years making the book, and is a very reliable source.

Does he cite any? I only ask because those are the kind of details on Dempsey's mindset and thought processes which surely only Jack himself or someone close to him could have provided.

Obama
05-18-2009, 02:52 PM
I wouldn't. Archie Moore was actually a very accomplished heavyweight with his overall record at the weight being 75 wins and only 3 losses (to Marciano, Patterson and Ali).

Lewis had notable wins over heavyweights Red Burman, Al Ettore and Johnny Risko but Moore had a much more extensive resume with wins over Nino Valdes, Bob Baker, Clarence Henry, Jimmy Bivins, Bob Satterfield, Alejandro Lavorante and others which once earned him the number 1 challenger rating at heavyweight.

Eh, Archie fought in a time where the Heavyweight Division was weaker. Bivins beat him when Bivins was actually still elite. Satterfield was nothing more than a KO artist with a glass jaw. And Moore was pretty much over the hill for most of his Heavyweight career.

TheGreatA
05-18-2009, 03:01 PM
Eh, Archie fought in a time where the Heavyweight Division was weaker. Bivins beat him when Bivins was actually still elite. Satterfield was nothing more than a KO artist with a glass jaw. And Moore was pretty much over the hill for most of his Heavyweight career.

I don't know about the heavyweight division being weaker. The men Archie Moore fought were bigger and looked better on film to me (Valdes, Satterfield, Baker, Henry, Bivins).

Moore in my opinion was at his best during the early 50's. Some might not agree because he was older then but I've seen his fights from different parts of his career and the 1950's are when he looks to be at his best to me, beating the likes of Harold Johnson, Joey Maxim, Valdes, Baker, Olson, etc.

Bivins was still good at the time of their rematch and the third fight although not as good as during their first fight. Moore however was just a 168 lb middleweight (compared to 186 lb Bivins) by the time they first fought each other so it goes both ways.

Obama
05-18-2009, 03:07 PM
I don't know about the heavyweight division being weaker. The men Archie Moore fought were bigger and looked better on film to me (Valdes, Satterfield, Baker, Henry, Bivins).

Moore in my opinion was at his best during the early 50's. Some might not agree because he was older then but I've seen his fights from different parts of his career and the 1950's are when he looks to be at his best to me, beating the likes of Harold Johnson, Joey Maxim, Valdes, Baker, Olson, etc.

Bivins was still good at the time of their rematch and the third fight although not as good as during their first fight. Moore however was just a 168 lb middleweight (compared to 186 lb Bivins) by the time they first fought each other so it goes both ways.

I would have to agree that the EARLY 50s close out his prime. By the mid 50s he was playing Yo-Yo with his weight too much and it affected some of his performances negatively. So I'd say a prime Moore was around 1949 - 1954. He started fading in '54.

Obama
05-18-2009, 03:12 PM
I would have to agree that the EARLY 50s close out his prime. By the mid 50s he was playing Yo-Yo with his weight too much and it affected some of his performances negatively. So I'd say a prime Moore was around 1949 - 1954. He started fading in '54.

Actually, he was still prime before '49, but the shenanigans with him not properly preparing for certain fights ended then. He legitimately had more losses prior to this date because the competition was harder.

LondonRingRules
05-20-2009, 07:50 AM
Like I've said numerous times there is no dout Jack Demspey wanted nothing to do with Harry Greb, that is fact......

** You dears are priceless, thinking your little farts are facts.

Jack gave Harry a job and put him in the queue to wait his turn for his 3 rds of sparring for the day, now, THAT, my little dear is fact.

Here's a nice little interview with a 70ish Tommy Loughran who was a Dempsey sparring partner for the 1st Tunney fight. Funny how apocryphally generic the story is, just like your Greb porkies. Why, the feather duster Loughran has the iron chinned Dempsey on the verge of knockout after dicing him to bits after just a few rounds. Just think what he would have done to Dempsey and Wills in a real fight in 6 oz gloves!

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1094862/index.htm

Southpaw16BF
05-20-2009, 08:44 AM
** You dears are priceless, thinking your little farts are facts.

Jack gave Harry a job and put him in the queue to wait his turn for his 3 rds of sparring for the day, now, THAT, my little dear is fact.

Here's a nice little interview with a 70ish Tommy Loughran who was a Dempsey sparring partner for the 1st Tunney fight. Funny how apocryphally generic the story is, just like your Greb porkies. Why, the feather duster Loughran has the iron chinned Dempsey on the verge of knockout after dicing him to bits after just a few rounds. Just think what he would have done to Dempsey and Wills in a real fight in 6 oz gloves!

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1094862/index.htm

Once again you continue to talk bogus, Loughran may have been beating up Dempey in sparring, but are you forgetting this was a Demspey who hadn't been in a ring for 3 years, as he was busy in Hollywood.

Greb got Dempsey more much more in his prime years, from 1919 to 1923. And Demspey basically quit in one of the rounds with after getting his check bone split open saying that will do for today.

After this Dempsey went even more afraid to fight Greb, and it was the cards a good few times. You really make me laugh, on how you compared the Greb/Demspey situation to James Toney/Wladmir Klitschko.

Hmmm......Well in your eyes Toney must be beating up Wlad in sparring sessions and beating all the top contenders around to day, and the boxing magazines must be calling for this fight.......:rofl:

Your lack of boxing knowlodge is so pour, it makes me laugh. And it's a shame Demspey cound't build up enough anger to want to shut Greb's mouth as Greb would say to him ''when are you going to fight me you bum''

And one more thing, you do know Greb defeated Tommy Loughran. Like I've told you before, go and do some research on Greb, you will learn alot, and realize just how good he was.

Southpaw16BF
05-20-2009, 02:03 PM
Does he cite any? I only ask because those are the kind of details on Dempsey's mindset and thought processes which surely only Jack himself or someone close to him could have provided.

Well this is a quote from his manager Jack Kearns ''Getting Desmpey to fight competitive fights was difficult because he wanted to retire undefeated''. ''Desmpey's contention is that if he retires undefeated as undfeated champion, he'd always in the future, be able to collect money as a showman in various capacities, whereas a defeated title holder, the present and coming generations would relegate him into the pugilistic discard''

Kerans would go on to say ''Jack is painting mental pictures of himself as a grand old man being the hero of the ring as a undefeated champion''

People around Demspey at that time, were also belived to of backed these statemenst up as true......

Kid McCoy
05-20-2009, 02:31 PM
Well this is a quote from his manager Jack Kearns

People around Demspey at that time, were also belived to of backed these statemenst up as true......

Was that before or after their split? Remember Kearns rarely missed an opportunity to discredit Dempsey after their fall out, also claiming that he'd soaked Dempsey's wraps in plaster of Paris prior to the Willard fight, which has since been debunked.

Southpaw16BF
05-20-2009, 03:46 PM
Was that before or after their split? Remember Kearns rarely missed an opportunity to discredit Dempsey after their fall out, also claiming that he'd soaked Dempsey's wraps in plaster of Paris prior to the Willard fight, which has since been debunked.

Not sure, people who were around Dempsey said this was true.......But nothing is fact. And it may be lies.

But I think there is no hiding the fact that Dempsey didnt want a showdown with Greb.