View Full Version : why isnt MONZON that leagiondary?


portuge puncher
05-12-2009, 10:49 PM
why? i know many boxing fans have a ton to say about hagler, greb, SRR, and hopkins when it comes to great MW's. but why is carlos monzon almost always looked over? i think he did more then all of them.

is it because of compitition?
because he had very good compitition: emile griffith, nino beuventi, rodrigo valdez, bennie briscoe.

is it because he didnt accomplish enough?
MW champ for 7 years with 14 defenses. a record of 89-3-8 59 ko's.

he always seemed overshadowed by other greats, especially by hagler, but i dont understand why.

Southpaw16BF
05-12-2009, 10:56 PM
I tend to agree, I find at times in the boxing world Monzon dosen't quite get enough credit.

Only 3 defeats in 100 fights, 14 Title defences of his Middlweight Crown, never avoided no one at the weight, held onto the Title for 7 years and retired champion. Beat 3 Hall Of Famers in Nino Benvenuti, Emile Griffith, and Jose Napoles and beat top world rated contenders in Rodrigo Valdez and Bennie Briscoe.

Such a genius inside the prize ring, solid counterpuncher, no one ever controlled the pace of a fight the way Carlos Monzon could, very strong with such a strong will and work rate and brillant stamina aswell as a cast iron chin and a shotgun like right hand.

Indeed one of the true greats and one of the best fighters ever to lace on a pair of gloves. No dout.....

(Do Monzon's behaviour outside the ring was very low and unacceptable)

ßringer
05-12-2009, 11:15 PM
I've never seen Monzon overlooked.

Everytime people talk about the greatest Middleweights of All Time ; I always see him make the list.

Robinson, Greb, Monzon, Hagler, Ketchel, and Hopkins.

Greatest Middleweights ever. The order you place them in is up to you, but those are the top 6 IMO.

Southpaw16BF
05-12-2009, 11:26 PM
I've never seen Monzon overlooked.

Everytime people talk about the greatest Middleweights of All Time ; I always see him make the list.

Robinson, Greb, Monzon, Hagler, Ketchel, and Hopkins.

Greatest Middleweights ever. The order you place them in is up to you, but those are the top 6 IMO.

I do feel one fighter that gets overlooked is Tommy Ryan. He fought from 1887 to 1907. He was Welterweight Wolrd Champion for 4 years, and then would hold the Wolrd Middlweight Crown for 9 years.

The fight intelligentsia prasied him as one of the cleverest and most intelligent fighters of his era and as a all time great. He was very quick footed, fundamentally sound for the day, and a huge puncher. By all accounts he was for the period ''Flawless''

He held wins over such fighters like Nanpareil Jack Dempsey, Tommy West, Charley Johnson, Jack Bonner, and would draw with Charles Kid McCoy.

Brillant fighter, but no many know him around here, as I remember Poet682006not knowing much about him and I can imagine many other will not either.

Picture of Ryan..........
http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/2/2b/Ryan.Tommy1898.jpg

Southpaw16BF
05-12-2009, 11:29 PM
More pictures of Ryan.....
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Tommy_Ryan.jpg

http://www.hickoksports.com/images/ryan_tommy.jpg

http://www.antekprizering.com/ryantommyindext.jpeg

(The last two pictures are very hard to make out to due the size of them, especailly the last one, but oh well....

Southpaw16BF
05-12-2009, 11:38 PM
Here is a brillant read about the life and career of Carlos Monzon...In a part series

http://toraz.altervista.org/Toro/monzon_small.jpg

By Mike Casey: The ***8216;It***8217; factor, it is often said, can never be truly defined. We simply know that some people have it and others don***8217;t. Identifying and appreciating its components is another matter and can prove a devilishly difficult task.

At some time or another, we have all seen a fighter whom we know to be great without initially knowing why. We tend to keep quiet about this, of course. When you make your living on the boxing beat, it doesn***8217;t do to go around asking others to enlighten you.

The average fan, by contrast, is a more innocent and admirably courageous animal. I must admit to having quite a high regard for the fellow who posted the following question on one of the Internet forums: WHY WAS CARLOS MONZON SO GREAT?

My admiration for this honest soul might surprise you, since I happen to be one of Monzon***8217;s greatest boosters. At first glance, the question might seem akin to asking what Joe Louis ever did that was worth a spit..

But I understood the nature of the query because it took me back to my teens when I watched Carlos Monzon for the first time. What did I see then through my youthfully innocent eyes? And what did I fail to appreciate?

Let me say right off the bat that I recognised the tall and sinewy Monzon as a very strong and tough fighter. Beyond that, I wasn***8217;t sure. I didn***8217;t see a man who would reign as the middleweight champion for seven years, make fourteen defences of his crown and methodically pummel a succession of top quality fighting men to the point of significantly shortening their careers.

There was a deceptive destructiveness to Monzon***8217;s work, a cold and sometimes cloaked manner to his executions. He would batter technically superior and more mobile opponents into submission without fuss or frills or any sense of the melodramatic. You would see the evidence, assimilate it to the best of your ability and still come away asking yourself how exactly he did it.

Not to put too fine a point on it, there were times when Carlos Monzon looked downright ordinary when viewed through a strictly technical eye. Perhaps that is what threw so many people in the early days and what continues to throw the new generation.

Jim Jeffries and Rocky Marciano, two of history***8217;s other great indestructibles, were similarly unremarkable in that respect. But the fireworks from Jim and Rocky were loud and bright and wholly visible.

Monzon***8217;s arsenal of weapons could be as understated and deceiving as his permanently impassive expression. Fighters got bashed and bludgeoned by Jeffries and Marciano. Against Monzon, they got coldly hammered. If you can***8217;t spot the difference, you never will.

Monzon was awkward and ungainly. He was very upright. He wasn***8217;t fleet of hand or foot and was often very often robotic in his movement. He didn***8217;t possess the skills of Sugar Ray Robinson, the whirlwind place of Harry Greb or the explosiveness of Marcel Cerdan. What exactly was it, then, that set the powerful Argentinian apart from most others?

Pertinent

Historian Ted Spoon makes a very pertinent point when he says, ***8220;Fans are always displeased with fighters who seem so against the grain in comparison to the ideal pugilistic textbook. We watch a Joe Louis highlight reel and conclude that the guy did everything by the book, but there have been numerous ***8216;authors***8217; throughout history whose work is yet to be understood. Monzon is just another.
***8220;Monzon had a great fighting discipline and a unique deceptiveness. Everything he did was done with purpose, never half-assed, and the slow and pushy nature of his punches confused until they hit home, hard.

***8220;His rock solid, beanpole body was an impossible obstacle. Monzon only needed to creak back that 6***8217; 2***8221; frame in order to evade the most stretched of efforts.

***8220;A feature synonymous with Monzon was his ability to half-punch. Sometimes, if a punch was going to fall short, he would leave his arm in its half recoiled state, only to pump it out when back in range. These subtle tricks, whether intentional or just bizarre characteristics of his methodical style, left fighters guessing.

***8220;Carlos was a beast of a fighter, a bit nasty. He was not one who relied on intimidation, but he was the school bully in there as he swatted his opponents about until they crumbled.***8221;

A bully boy, yes, but certainly not the stereotype bully who turned tail when the other fellow hit him back. Monzon was no less tenacious and implacable in the face of adversity.

Carlos proved repeatedly that he could win his fights in any fashion. He was a commanding front-runner who couldn***8217;t be shifted or derailed once he was steaming. There are few things that sap the morale of an opponent more than knowing from the start that the most he can achieve is to keep the deficit respectable.

In his coronation war against Nino Benvenuti in the cauldron of Rome in 1970, Monzon stuck to his task with the chilling doggedness of a lion bringing down a zebra. He grew in strength and determination as the rounds wore on in an engrossing and exciting fight. Nino must have wondered what he had to do that night to quell his seemingly unbreakable challenger. Sensing his championship was slipping from his grasp, Benvenuti launched powerful rallies in the ninth and tenth rounds, in which his vaunted left hook found Monzon***8217;s jaw repeatedly. I couldn***8217;t believe how little effect those blows had on Monzon. A year earlier, that same left hook had knocked Luis Rodriquez cold in eleven rounds. Four years before that, it had wrecked another tough man in Sandro Mazzinghi, who was put to sleep at the San Siro Stadium in Milan.

Monzon appeared impervious to such punishment as he kept firing back and finally broke Nino***8217;s resistance in the twelfth round. A terrific right cross to the jaw was the coup de grace.

California Hall of Fame member, Hap Navarro, matchmaker at the old Hollywood Legion Stadium between 1953 and 1955, has seen some terrific fighters in his time. Of Monzon, Hap says, ***8220;To me he was like another great middleweight champion, Freddie Steele, without the footwork. A wiry, somewhat raw-boned hard puncher who could take it. Not the difference in physique: Cerdan vs Steele or LaMotta vs Monzon.

Southpaw16BF
05-12-2009, 11:39 PM
Next Part
“Steele was a gangly sort as a fragile welterweight at the start of his pro career, long before he hit it big. But he could box with the best and had a devastating punch. Check out the film of his two-round annihilation of a rising Gus Lesnevich.

“I would also parallel Monzon as being a stronger, rangier edition of Roberto Duran, without the overly bellicose attitude that so characterised Roberto.

“You know the type. Fearless, confident, with a genuine affinity for confrontation – let the devil take the hindmost.

“Of the two, I would think that Monzon possessed the cooler head and therefore the better strategy in charting the battle. Duran improvised to meet the required pacing through the heat of it all.”

Quality

Whenever I go back and replay the films I have of Carlos Monzon, so another hidden jewel is revealed beneath his many layers. He truly was the laconic gunslinger of the ring, a wonderful fighter.

As I watch him winging his thunderous punches at a succession of reeling opponents, the irresistible force of the man they called Escopeta (Shotgun) seems even more potent than it did during his long reign as middleweight champion.

What a finisher Monzon was. Ruthless and incessant, full of controlled fire and ice. He just kept throwing punches when he had his man on the hook, yet never with reckless rage. The fire was confined to his fists, the ice controlled his brain. The punches were thrown coldly and deliberately, immense blows that sometimes missed the target but more often hit home with shuddering effect.

At the heart of the killing machine was an extraordinary self-belief and the perfect balance of arrogance and discipline. It was as if the gods themselves had told Monzon he could not be beaten, mapped out the perfect game plan for the chosen one and then flicked the switch that set him in motion. No showboating, no gimmicks, no peripheral nonsense to clog the wheels or stall the engine. Just a tireless, ruthless, super efficient machine that ran and ran.

One man who got a personal impression of Monzon’s sense of destiny was the prolific fight writer Graham Houston. When Monzon was the king of the middleweights, Graham reigned as the editor of the world’s longest running boxing publication, Boxing News, in London.

The fight game has been in Graham’s blood since I don’t know when, and he would take a plane, train or automobile to any battle he could get to during that golden era. He brought his readers vivid, first hand accounts of the great middleweight talents of the time, including Rodrigo Valdez, Bennie Briscoe, Tony Mundine, and that wildly exciting banger, Jean Mateo.

But it was Monzon who inevitably stood out in Graham’s mind, as much for the almost mystical aura that accompanied the iron will and the iron fists.

“Monzon was of course a big, tall middleweight and he controlled the distance very well, with his long left setting up the heavy right hand. He was very good at keeping the fight at the range he wanted and he had an outstanding chin. I recall Gratien Tonna hitting him with a huge left hook in Paris and Monzon hardly blinked. I think it took all the confidence out of Tonna, who was a very strong guy. He basically quit in the fifth when Monzon started opening up on him.

“There was an arrogance, even an insolence about Monzon. He carried himself like a winner. I was in the office of the promoter, Rodolfo Sabbatini in Rome with my wife of the time when Monzon strolled in, impeccable in a white suit, bronzed skin, smoking a cigarette, looking as if he had walked in off the set of a Federico Fellini film.

............

Southpaw16BF
05-12-2009, 11:40 PM
Next Part
He was a very cool looking guy and obviously a man absolutely full of confidence. He was one of those boxers who entered the ring as if he KNEW he was going to win, just a matter of how he did it.

“Although very good at long range, Monzon could bring up shorter punches. My memory tells me that he really hurt Jose Napoles with a right to the body in Paris. Although that fight was officially stopped because Napoles was cut, believe me, Angelo Dundee was glad to get his guy out of there because Jose was starting to get destroyed.

“Monzon was very good at coming right back when his opponent seemed to be doing well. It was very hard for a boxer to take charge of the fight with Carlos. I also recall how cool and collected he was when he was dropped by Rodrigo Valdez in their rematch, when Monzon was also cut along the side of the bridge of his nose.

“He never looked particularly flustered or disorientated as I recall, although he had been hit flush by the guy who had blasted Bennie Briscoe.

“Monzon just carried on fighting and came back to gain control of the excellent fight, steady and accurate and punishing against a very good and determined opponent.”

Stamina

Monzon’s stamina was probably his most impressive and illogical asset, since he was ever bit as proficient as Stanley Ketchel and Harry Greb at taking the rule book and throwing it out of the window. Ketchel invariably whiled away his leisure time by drinking and whoring out on the old Barbary Coast. Greb was a walking encyclopaedia on the best nightclubs and pool halls in any given town.

Monzon kept his body beautiful in trim by resting it horizontally against any passably attractive woman and by blow-torching his lungs with up to a hundred cigarettes a day. His nicotine intake would decrease by an impressive fifty a day when he got down to serious training, including a few smokes on the run to relieve the tedium of roadwork.

Author George Diaz Smith wrote of Carlos, “A guy like Ricardo Mayorga would be a novice compared to the likes of the iron lunged Monzon. Nobody could figure this out. For all of the years that I’d seen him, Monzon never gasped for air, tired or opened his mouth gagging for oxygen in any round.”

Aspects

Other rebellious aspects of the younger Monzon’s make-up couldn’t be left to look after themselves. The miracle of his control and steady temperament in the ring was that he was an eternally volcanic and volatile man in the living of everyday life. His handlers could only ever bank the fire in his soul, which burned from his youth to his premature death at the age of fifty-two in a car crash.

As a youngster, Monzon served brief jail terms for starting a soccer riot and brawling on a bus.

He was still up to his old tricks in his early days as a professional boxer when he supplemented his low earnings by pimping. Carlos never did stop walking on the wild side and certainly never found the secret to controlling the raging temper that he mastered so well within the roped square. When that temper finally boiled to overload, he threw his second wife Alicia Muniz to her death from a balcony.

What is it about boxing that enables a man like Monzon to park his general indiscipline in the closet and become the ultimate control freak in a make-or-break situation? Like a junkie jacking up on his favourite brew, the Argentinian enigma would suddenly become a model of reliability for the duration of a fight. He wised up to his foolish ways very quickly after a painful lesson in 1964. His manager, Amilcar Brusa, sent him down to Rio de Janeiro in Brazil to fight a tough cookie called Felipe Cambeiro. Badly prepared and outside his native Argentina for the first time, Carlos was decked three times in a humbling points defeat. He sucked up the harsh lesson and lost only once more in his remaining 86 fights over the next thirteen years.

Study

Whenever I study and assess the great middleweights, Monzon stands out as the man who could cope most effectively against all styles of opponents. He was excellent at maximising his many strengths and masking his weaknesses to the point where they rarely inconvenienced him. Tall and powerful, rangy and iron-chinned, Monzon was a destructive and debilitating hitter. The big blows often looked slow and ponderous, yet the damage they did was to drain the resistance and virtually terminate the top level careers of so many of his opponents. His pole-like jab alone must have felt like a concrete post as it rammed into an opponent’s face.

Carlos was a slow starter but always able to weather early storms. He was frequently stunned but so infrequently hurt. On the rare occasions he was floored, he would bounce straight back up like a yo-yo, as if his computer-like mind was programmed to believe that such incidents were no more than aberrations.

Like all great champions, Monzon had his pedestrian nights and close calls, yet always there was that frightening sense of inevitability about him. Old sage Emile Griffith fiddled Carlos about and almost pipped him in their second meeting in 1973, after being stopped in the fourteenth round of their first engagement.

Clever Denny Moyer made Monzon look awkward in carving out an early lead, but was floored, swollen and all done after five rounds of draining power and pressure. Jean-Claude Bouttier, the skilful Frenchman, twice attempted to navigate his way through the Monzon minefield, but was pulverised to defeat in their first fight and suffered a bruising points loss in their second.

Hard man Bennie Briscoe went iron for iron and will for will against Carlos and was soundly beaten. The talented but fragile Tony Mundine and the dangerous but crude Gratien Tonna were meat and drink for the Argentinian powerhouse.

Monzon’s two-fight career finale was almost perfectly scripted, as he captured thrilling decisions over the greatly talented and hard-hitting Colombian ace Rodrigo Valdez in Monte Carlo. In their second fight in 1977, Carlos was decked in the early going by a terrific right, stunning ringsiders by his almost nonchalant reaction to it. There was a quite audible gasp from the crowd when he hit the floor, and a similar intake of breath when he immediately got to his feet. I remember wondering at the time how that must have shaken the confidence of a man like Valdez, who had shattered the seemingly impregnable Bennie Briscoe with a single shot. Even under siege, Monzon retained his impassiveness. One wondered if he had crocodile blood running through his veins.

........

Southpaw16BF
05-12-2009, 11:41 PM
Next Part
Fellow Greats

One would need to write a book in order to do justice to comparing a fighter of Carlos Monzon’s calibre to his fellow all-time greats. In being brief, there is always the fear of sounding a little shallow and doing all fighters concerned a disservice. For one thing, we cannot include them all, so let us look at the men whose names are mostly mentioned as the top dogs.

I could comfortably go on forever about the multi-talented Sugar Ray Robinson, but it is important to remember that Ray was already a fading genius when he stepped up to middleweight. It is a testament to what he had left that he still won the middleweight championship five times. But he lost it three times too to Randy Turpin, Gene Fullmer and Carmen Basilio, who were not comparable to Monzon in overall talent, class and power.

Robinson, like the ageing Ali, increasingly needed to pace himself and call on his vast box of tricks during his middleweight reign. Basilio and Fullmer beat him with constant pressure, and neither man hit nearly as hard or as damagingly as Monzon. Basilio commented that Ray was ‘so damn tall’ at just under six feet, but Monzon was six two. Carlos wouldn’t have knocked Ray out, because nobody ever did that. I also think it is quite possible that Robinson would have surprised Monzon with a flash knockdown in the early stages, but I believe that Carlos would have pounded out a points win.

In my view, the two men who would have given Monzon his toughest fights were Stanley Ketchel and Harry Greb. Both men shared Carlos’ incredible stamina and sheer bloody-mindedness. Both were similar ‘forces of nature’, to borrow a somewhat over-used term. Ketchel, the great Michigan Assassin, would have been considered a freakishly hard hitter in any era. His power of punch was truly exceptional, as he stormed to 49 knockouts before his violent death at the age of twenty-four. Often dismissed as a crude banger by current critics, Stan was much more than that. His attacks were woven with tricky body shifts, and while he preferred to launch his power shots from a distance, he was a demon at infighting. He simply never stopped punching as he switched his onslaughts from head to body. Modern technology has proved that Ketchel’s punch rate was comparable to the fighters of today. He and Joe Thomas maintained a ferocious pace in their epic encounter in 1907, in which Stan knocked out Joe in the thirty-second round.

Ketchel, however, could be quite easily hit and wouldn’t have found it easy to get inside Monzon. All the time, Carlos would have been drilling the rushing Assassin with those hard and straight punches. A very difficult fight to call, and the agreed distance would have been an important factor. Over the traditionally accepted 15-round distance for all-time fantasy fights, I would have to give Monzon the edge.

Harry Greb would have been another bundle of trouble for Carlos. Fast, furious, constantly tossing blows from all angles, the Pittsburgh Windmill wouldn’t have conceded Monzon much breathing space. Much is made of Greb’s paltry knockout percentage, but to describe him as a light or fluffy hitter is to blindly ignore the reams of evidence to the contrary.

There are different ways to skin a cat, which is what Greb very nearly did to light-heavyweight great Jack Dillon in their Toledo fight of 1918. Jack came out of that one looking like a man who had been tossed head first into a threshing machine, his nose barely still attached to his face. To my knowledge, Dillon didn’t offer the opinion that Greb couldn’t hit.

But we know that Harry could be out-hustled and outboxed. Mike O’Dowd, the St Paul Cyclone, beat the younger Greb at his own rough game when he got the better of their no-decision fight. Gene Tunney, after a baptism of fire, learned how to box Harry by keeping him at distance with skill, precision and a cool head.

Monzon, I sense, would have utilised his natural power and canny boxing brain to survive some intensely uncomfortable moments against Greb and prevail in what would surely have been a hectic battle.

Mickey Walker, the Toy Bulldog, was a tough and gloriously exciting fighter, blessed with astonishing durability. A terrific body puncher, Mick saw off every opponent of equal weight in his prime and was never beaten as middleweight champion. But surely his only way of defeating Monzon would have been to knock Carlos out, a feat never achieved. Monzon would have matched Walker for strength and also possessed the sounder defence. The likely outcome would have been a punishing but convincing decision for Monzon in a barnburner of a fight.

Cause

I had all the time in the world for Marvin Hagler, having championed his cause in those dark days of the late seventies when he seemed to be the leading contender for an age before getting his shot. But I don’t believe he would have beaten Monzon. Little things stick in your mind about certain fighters, and I recall how tentative and uncertain Hagler seemed in his cautious victory over Roberto Duran.

Roberto was very similar to Monzon in his brazen confidence and fiery attitude. Duran intimidated opponents, and I have always believed that he and Ray Leonard were the only fighters who were able to plant the seed of doubt in Marvin’s mind.

Monzon was a very deliberate animal in his nature but he could always find a Plan B when the need arose. Hagler was less flexible in this regard and didn’t seem able to fully commit himself to an alternative game plan. My gut instinct tells me that Monzon would have forced Hagler up a blind alley and prevented him from getting sufficiently untracked to save the day.

The one man who might have unhinged even Monzon was the incredible Bob Fitzsimmons, an opinion that might surprise some of our younger readers. But the ring has probably never produced another man of such scientific boxing knowledge as Fitz, who possessed the withering power to put his theories into practice.

That power didn’t diminish as he moved up the divisions. Fitz was the Bob Foster of the middleweights, a genuine physical freak and arguably the hardest one-punch hitter in history. He knocked out the 300lb Ed Dunkhorst with a single blow to the stomach.

However, let us not get too worked up over such scenarios. The almost unique subjectivity of boxing means that we will never find the pot of gold that contains the definitive ranking of the greats.

I would only say that where the middleweights are concerned, I wouldn’t feel too bad about riding shotgun with the Shotgun himself.
Cue Ennio Morricone music!

End..........

ßringer
05-12-2009, 11:45 PM
I do feel one fighter that gets overlooked is Tommy Ryan. He fought from 1887 to 1907. He was Welterweight Wolrd Champion for 4 years, and then would hold the Wolrd Middlweight Crown for 9 years.

The fight intelligentsia prasied him as one of the cleverest and most intelligent fighters of his era and as a all time great. He was very quick footed, fundamentally sound for the day, and a huge puncher. By all accounts he was for the period ''Flawless''

He held wins over such fighters like Nanpareil Jack Dempsey, Tommy West, Charley Johnson, Jack Bonner, and would draw with Charles Kid McCoy.

Brillant fighter, but no many know him around here, as I remember Poet682006not knowing much about him and I can imagine many other will not either.

Picture of Ryan..........
http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/2/2b/Ryan.Tommy1898.jpg

Never heard of him. I'm either showing my young age, or he really is a fighter few have heard of.

Got any links to stuff I could read about him?

Nice piece on Carlos you posted there. :fing02:

hookoutofhell
05-13-2009, 07:15 AM
Next Part


End..........

cheers man, thats a really good read on monzon

green k

nachorjj
05-13-2009, 07:23 AM
roy jones and bernard hopkins are the only MW who earn monzon but rovinson hagler and more no

Miburo
05-13-2009, 08:37 AM
Monzon is one of the strangest and most difficult to qualify fighters in the history boxing. He's like the anti-Tyson, a man who never let any of his character or habits outside of the ring influence his cold, surgical performance.

TheGreatA
05-13-2009, 08:51 AM
This is the best I've seen of Carlos Monzon:

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Miburo
05-13-2009, 08:56 AM
This is the best I've seen of Carlos Monzon

It's amazing how ordinary Monzon could look even while looking good.

savorduhflavor
05-13-2009, 09:16 AM
Monzon's style reminds me of middleweight Ali.

Obviously with the exception of the footwork as Monzon seems to stay flat footed.

But with the way he uses his jab and his arsenal of punches, it really reminds me of Ali.

TheGreatA
05-13-2009, 09:20 AM
It's amazing how ordinary Monzon could look even while looking good.

He was only truly spectacular in the way he was able to use his height and reach to his utmost advantage, as well as the calmness and poise he showed inside the ring at all times despite his chaotic life outside of it.

I believe he was recovering from a gunshot wound inflicted by his wife and also having great trouble making the 160 lb limit for the second Griffith fight, despite all this he was able to win in his traditional if unspectacular fashion. You have to wonder how it never caught up with him until later on in his life.

Miburo
05-13-2009, 09:29 AM
He was only truly spectacular in the way he was able to use his height and reach to his utmost advantage, as well as the calmness and poise he showed inside the ring at all times despite his chaotic life outside of it.

Yeah, a truly unique style in that he was so dominant despite being completely flat-footed and having mediocre power. The guy would often be in complete chaos up until the weigh-in, having to go on brutal runs right before the fight just to cut weight, drinking, smoking, having sex all night, etc. Pure violence outside the ring, but oddly detached inside.

Miburo
05-13-2009, 09:31 AM
You have to wonder how it never caught up with him until later on in his life.

Being a complete physical freak certainly helped. Everyone jokes about Mayorga, but a man who was one of the top 2 middleweights of all time was living the same lifestyle.

I think he became an even more violent individual once he was out of boxing though. Boxing was probably the only discipline in his life, and once that got taken away it was anything goes.

TheGreatA
05-13-2009, 09:39 AM
Being a complete physical freak certainly helped. I think he became an even more violent individual once he was out of boxing though. Boxing was probably the only discipline in his life, and once that got taken away it was anything goes.

That seems to be the case for many boxers.

More Monzon footage:

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Southpaw16BF
05-13-2009, 10:14 AM
Never heard of him. I'm either showing my young age, or he really is a fighter few have heard of.
Got any links to stuff I could read about him?

Here is a few things about the great Tommy Ryan
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Lodge/6525/TommyRyan2.htm
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/ryan-t.htm

Nice piece on Carlos you posted there. :fing02:

Thanks Bringer.....

Southpaw16BF
05-13-2009, 10:31 AM
Being a complete physical freak certainly helped. Everyone jokes about Mayorga, but a man who was one of the top 2 middleweights of all time was living the same lifestyle.

I think he became an even more violent individual once he was out of boxing though. Boxing was probably the only discipline in his life, and once that got taken away it was anything goes.

Mayorga is reading the book Monzon wrote, and he isn't half as bad as Monzon. Mayorga does alot of his bad habbits to gain attention, Monzon wound't even mention it. One time while getting his hands wrapped Monzon was smoking in the locker room, Monzon would even stop while doing his roadwork just to light up, and then would resume.

He was 100 day smoker, and would cut back to 50 in camp. He was also belived to be out on the town the night before the Nino Benvanuti 2 fight. But yet his stamina was one of his very best points.

Monzon was a freak of nature..........

Eric Holder
05-13-2009, 11:03 AM
Monzon is one of the strangest and most difficult to qualify fighters in the history boxing. He's like the anti-Tyson, a man who never let any of his character or habits outside of the ring influence his cold, surgical performance.

that's what I find most amazing about Monzon, anyone familiar with his life story would think he'd be an absolute lunatic in the ring but he was the exact opposite he was calm and percise

GJC
05-13-2009, 11:49 AM
I do feel one fighter that gets overlooked is Tommy Ryan. He fought from 1887 to 1907. He was Welterweight Wolrd Champion for 4 years, and then would hold the Wolrd Middlweight Crown for 9 years.

The fight intelligentsia prasied him as one of the cleverest and most intelligent fighters of his era and as a all time great. He was very quick footed, fundamentally sound for the day, and a huge puncher. By all accounts he was for the period ''Flawless''

He held wins over such fighters like Nanpareil Jack Dempsey, Tommy West, Charley Johnson, Jack Bonner, and would draw with Charles Kid McCoy.

Brillant fighter, but no many know him around here, as I remember Poet682006not knowing much about him and I can imagine many other will not either.

Picture of Ryan..........
http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/2/2b/Ryan.Tommy1898.jpg
Good call on Ryan, not sure why he gets overlooked maybe because of Fitzsimmons?

GJC
05-13-2009, 11:53 AM
why? i know many boxing fans have a ton to say about hagler, greb, SRR, and hopkins when it comes to great MW's. but why is carlos monzon almost always looked over? i think he did more then all of them.

is it because of compitition?
because he had very good compitition: emile griffith, nino beuventi, rodrigo valdez, bennie briscoe.

is it because he didnt accomplish enough?
MW champ for 7 years with 14 defenses. a record of 89-3-8 59 ko's.

he always seemed overshadowed by other greats, especially by hagler, but i dont understand why.
I think personally he is in that bracket with the Grebs, Ketchel, SRR, Hagler so pretty exaulted company. Maybe not top in a lot of peoples minds but top 6 is not too shabby considering.

black.ink
05-13-2009, 04:37 PM
Yeah, a truly unique style in that he was so dominant despite being completely flat-footed and having mediocre power. The guy would often be in complete chaos up until the weigh-in, having to go on brutal runs right before the fight just to cut weight, drinking, smoking, having sex all night, etc. Pure violence outside the ring, but oddly detached inside.

I have to disagree. He had a lot of snap in his punches. Monzon's effectiveness came from his jab, which he utilised most. He used to break down fighters in the ring, often leaving them in heaps.

He didn't have a one-punch KO power, but because he had tremendous stamina, he was able to use his natural power accumatively. He was such a smart fighter in the way he broke his oppenent down which looked like little effort on his behalf, but to pure amazement on ours.

I think it's no coincedence that the Ring listed him as the 40th greatest puncher of all-time, which in regard is a matter of opinion, but an opinion of many respected historians and writers.


To the original thread-starter, i have to say that Monzon isn't neccesarily 'over-looked' when compared to other Middleweights. In fact, any respected persons list of the greatest MW's of all-time tends to list Monzon in the top 5, and always guaranteed in the top 10. I think he is an understated Middleweight because of his fighting style, which doesn't warm to 'boxing' fans. I suppose you have to have an appreciation of how Monzon fought, and although unspectacular on the eye, he left an everlasting impression on many.

If you pitted him in the ring with any great MW, i think Monzon would come top overall. Greb, Ketchel, Hagler, Hopkins and of course Robinson as well as fans of many others may disagree, but Monzon was something special.

them_apples
05-14-2009, 01:50 AM
I do feel one fighter that gets overlooked is Tommy Ryan. He fought from 1887 to 1907. He was Welterweight Wolrd Champion for 4 years, and then would hold the Wolrd Middlweight Crown for 9 years.

The fight intelligentsia prasied him as one of the cleverest and most intelligent fighters of his era and as a all time great. He was very quick footed, fundamentally sound for the day, and a huge puncher. By all accounts he was for the period ''Flawless''

He held wins over such fighters like Nanpareil Jack Dempsey, Tommy West, Charley Johnson, Jack Bonner, and would draw with Charles Kid McCoy.

Brillant fighter, but no many know him around here, as I remember Poet682006not knowing much about him and I can imagine many other will not either.

Picture of Ryan..........
http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/2/2b/Ryan.Tommy1898.jpg

the manchine might know something

hookoutofhell
05-14-2009, 07:38 AM
i dont know too much about monzon but to me he seems like a margarito type fighter - would that be a fair comparison to make.

great chin and great stamina, solid punching power, huge for the weight, flat footed, the sort of guy who will wear you down and won't stop over the 12 rounds. both fighters despite their size were very good at fighting on the inside. defensively monzon seems smarter and capable of adjusting his tactics and defense.

looking at the clips id say that monzon is more measured in his offense as well, margarito often looks to batter his opponents into submission with a huge volume of punches but monzon looks more calculating, as though he is thinking more about his punches and how to break down his opponent.

Miburo
05-15-2009, 10:58 AM
I have to disagree. He had a lot of snap in his punches. Monzon's effectiveness came from his jab, which he utilised most. He used to break down fighters in the ring, often leaving them in heaps.

He didn't have a one-punch KO power, but because he had tremendous stamina, he was able to use his natural power accumatively. He was such a smart fighter in the way he broke his oppenent down which looked like little effort on his behalf, but to pure amazement on ours.

I think it's no coincedence that the Ring listed him as the 40th greatest puncher of all-time, which in regard is a matter of opinion, but an opinion of many respected historians and writers.


To the original thread-starter, i have to say that Monzon isn't neccesarily 'over-looked' when compared to other Middleweights. In fact, any respected persons list of the greatest MW's of all-time tends to list Monzon in the top 5, and always guaranteed in the top 10. I think he is an understated Middleweight because of his fighting style, which doesn't warm to 'boxing' fans. I suppose you have to have an appreciation of how Monzon fought, and although unspectacular on the eye, he left an everlasting impression on many.

If you pitted him in the ring with any great MW, i think Monzon would come top overall. Greb, Ketchel, Hagler, Hopkins and of course Robinson as well as fans of many others may disagree, but Monzon was something special.

By mediocre I simply meant unexceptional. He could wear people down and get them out of there (he actually had a half-decent KO ratio) but he was not a puncher by any means. He had enough power to command respect, but was still more or less a decision fighter against worthy opponents.

nachorjj
05-15-2009, 11:05 AM
monzon in 1 of 2 top MW fighters of all time. if he fight whith hagler or rovinson he destroy but i think hopkins can win carlos

Flicker Jab
05-15-2009, 04:19 PM
southpaw why not just post the link you copied all that stuff from /shrug

Southpaw16BF
05-15-2009, 04:39 PM
southpaw why not just post the link you copied all that stuff from /shrug

well actually you can't post the link on this site, and I think it's easier just coping and pasting, why problem?

glidesmack
05-18-2009, 06:10 AM
hopkins said monzon might beat robinson. my take on monzon is that he was too much of a freak to be considered an alltime great. Had genuinely disproportionate body, huge upper body with spindly legs. Caused by childhood illness I think. probably oversized neck and head as well for his weight.

Obama
05-18-2009, 10:14 AM
I rate Monzon #7 MW:

Harry Greb
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sam Langford
Marvin Hagler
Bernard Hopkins
Stanley Ketchel
Carlos Monzon

Monzon kinda pulled a Calzaghe with his career. Didn't really fight anyone worth a damn till the tail end. Granted, he fought a LOT more credible opposition in the time span, but it would have been nice to see him tested against Champions like Benvenuti while they were still in their prime. And like Hopkins and Hagler, two of his signature wins came from beating ATG Welterweights. Of the guys I rated in the top 7, his style is the most ordinary. I think he could of beat Ketchel, but that's about it.

Also, Langford beat Ketchel and Flowers, so don't tell me I can't rate him as a MW. ;)

Southpaw16BF
05-18-2009, 10:33 AM
I rate Monzon #7 MW:

Harry Greb
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sam Langford
Marvin Hagler
Bernard Hopkins
Stanley Ketchel
Carlos Monzon

Monzon kinda pulled a Calzaghe with his career. Didn't really fight anyone worth a damn till the tail end. Granted, he fought a LOT more credible opposition in the time span, but it would have been nice to see him tested against Champions like Benvenuti while they were still in their prime. And like Hopkins and Hagler, two of his signature wins came from beating ATG Welterweights. Of the guys I rated in the top 7, his style is the most ordinary. I think he could of beat Ketchel, but that's about it.

Also, Langford beat Ketchel and Flowers, so don't tell me I can't rate him as a MW. ;)

You say his style is ordinary, I don't know why people think this. Monzon was very hard to figure out, his hands rather low, his amazing counter punching abilty, his cool calm and collective attitude, his brillant stamina and his shotgun right cross aswell as his brillant chin. He was very hard to figure out and deal with. and there wasn't much ordinary about him, he may not look breathtaking on footage, but belive me he was.

I don't think you can compare Monzon with Calzaghe, Monzon was willing to travel much more than Calzaghe, and never just based himself in his homeland for 90% of his career. Monzon won his Middlweight Title in Benvanuti's hometown for crying out loud, that says enough.

You say Monzon never fought many prime fighters, maybe at times but he did fight his fair share. The first time he met Rodrigo Valdez, Valdez hand't been beat in 6 years, and was considered one of the hardest punchers in boxing. In those 6 years he held wins over Bennie Briscoe and then unbeaten Vinnie Curto. He had also made 4 defences of his WBC Title, you won get much more prime than that.

I dout think you can really dout Monzon's greatness at Middlweight, but yet people do. He is without dout a top 3 Middlweight of all time

I just feel Monzon reign and dominace at Middlweight should make him at least top 3. He made 14 defences of the Title, held onto the Title for 7 Years, avoided no one, beat 3 Hall of famers and 4 World Champions, and beat top contenders aswell. And retired Champion. You cant ask for any more that that in view.

And I know you are intitled to your own thoughts, but you say I could only see him beating Ketchel. I've always thought he would of beat Marvin Hagler, aswell as Ray Robinson and Bernard Hopkins at Middlweight, on his best day.

Obama
05-18-2009, 02:40 PM
His style isn't ordinary compared to a normal fighter. Compared to the other greats I listed however, quite ordinary. He'd have a harder time trying to figure them out then vice versa. His performance against a way past it Benvenuti was not impressive. Benvenuti was beating his ass but couldn't hurt him. Given his incredible size, it was pretty easy for him to beat up Welterweights who had seen better days. You mentioned Rodrigo Valdez, and I consider it his best win. He didn't avoid anyone, but he just wasn't around when the competition was as hard as it could be. Once again, all the risks came at the end of his career...completely protected up until then, and somehow managed to lose 3 times. Can't be over looked.

TheGreatA
05-18-2009, 02:48 PM
His style isn't ordinary compared to a normal fighter. Compared to the other greats I listed however, quite ordinary. He'd have a harder time trying to figure them out then vice versa. His performance against a way past it Benvenuti was not impressive. Benvenuti was beating his ass but couldn't hurt him. Given his incredible size, it was pretty easy for him to beat up Welterweights who had seen better days. You mentioned Rodrigo Valdez, and I consider it his best win. He didn't avoid anyone, but he just wasn't around when the competition was as hard as it could be. Once again, all the risks came at the end of his career...completely protected up until then, and somehow managed to lose 3 times. Can't be over looked.

Monzon's three early losses are meaningless to be honest as is almost all of his early career. He was brought up the way that most Argentinian fighters are brought up, having numerous fights against local competition until stepping up in class.

He did fight world class competition in nearly every fight of his from 1970 to 1977.

Obama
05-18-2009, 02:58 PM
Monzon's three early losses are meaningless to be honest as is almost all of his early career. He was brought up the way that most Argentinian fighters are brought up, having numerous fights against local competition until stepping up in class.

He did fight world class competition in nearly every fight of his from 1970 to 1977.

Should we ignore all 9 of his draws too then?

TheGreatA
05-18-2009, 03:25 PM
Should we ignore all 9 of his draws too then?

No we shouldn't especially the draw with Briscoe which was likely a hometown decision. He did avenge most of his draws though.

The rematch with Griffith could have gone the other way as well but then again Monzon had all kinds of excuses for that performance yet he used none. His troubles outside the ring and with his weight are legendary.

TheGreatA
05-18-2009, 03:29 PM
I also don't know about rating Langford at middleweight since he rarely fought at the weight limit. He did beat Flowers and went 6 rounds with Ketchel but he was above 160 lbs for those fights from what I know.

billionaire
05-18-2009, 07:08 PM
I rate Monzon #7 MW:

Harry Greb
Sugar Ray Robinson
Sam Langford
Marvin Hagler
Bernard Hopkins
Stanley Ketchel
Carlos Monzon

Monzon kinda pulled a Calzaghe with his career. Didn't really fight anyone worth a damn till the tail end. Granted, he fought a LOT more credible opposition in the time span, but it would have been nice to see him tested against Champions like Benvenuti while they were still in their prime. And like Hopkins and Hagler, two of his signature wins came from beating ATG Welterweights. Of the guys I rated in the top 7, his style is the most ordinary. I think he could of beat Ketchel, but that's about it.

Also, Langford beat Ketchel and Flowers, so don't tell me I can't rate him as a MW. ;)

lol monzon beats hagler easy.......hagler got outboxed by john mugabi of all people......

Obama
05-18-2009, 07:11 PM
lol monzon beats hagler easy.......hagler got outboxed by john mugabi of all people......

No one goes 15 rounds with Hagler easily.

TheGreatA
05-18-2009, 07:33 PM
lol monzon beats hagler easy.......hagler got outboxed by john mugabi of all people......

What fight were you watching? Hagler landed on Mugabi at will.

Southpaw16BF
05-19-2009, 01:32 PM
His style isn't ordinary compared to a normal fighter. Compared to the other greats I listed however, quite ordinary.
I just don't think it a ordinary style full stop compared to any type of a fighter. Monzon was so hard to figure out, he may not have look breattaking on footage, but don't be fooled by this.

His performance against a way past it Benvenuti was not impressive. Benvenuti was beating his ass but couldn't hurt him.

What fight were you watching, Benvennuti, was not beating his ass, before Monzon knocked him out, Nino may have been having his moments, but I always felt Monzon was in control of the fight, and was working a brillant tactical gameplan, in Benvanuti's home country of Italy.

Given his incredible size, it was pretty easy for him to beat up Welterweights who had seen better days.
Hmmmm.....Napoles had seen better days? What, Napoles hand't been beat in 4 years, and in those years had made 7 defences of his Welterweight crown. There may have been a huge strength and height factor, but how you can say Napoles was past his best is beyond me.

You mentioned Rodrigo Valdez, and I consider it his best win. He didn't avoid anyone, but he just wasn't around when the competition was as hard as it could be. Once again, all the risks came at the end of his career...completely protected up until then,

It may have not been the best resume of wins ever, but it was a pretty good resume. It included beating 3 Hall Of Famers in Emile Griffith, Jose Napoles and Nino Benvenuti. He beat some of Europes best fighters around in Tom Bogs and Jean Claude Bouttier.
And outstading contender Bennie Bruscoe, aswell as one of the hardest punchers and WBC Champion Rodrigo Valdez. Looks pretty good to me. How is this protection?

and somehow managed to lose 3 times. Can't be over looked

Wow you are really being picky pointing out 3 losses, and this is a pretty good stat actually 3 losses out of 100 fights, and all losses were revenged, did you know this. And you bring up his 9 draws, well actually it's a very well known fact that draws were a common thing in Argentina, Nicolino Locche had 14.

glidesmack
05-19-2009, 05:54 PM
no one cares about carlos monzon he was just a freak, light heavy upper body on welterweight legs.

Southpaw16BF
05-19-2009, 06:10 PM
no one cares about carlos monzon he was just a freak, light heavy upper body on welterweight legs.

Who are you to say no one cares about Carlos Monzon, do you speak for everyone on behalf of this board?

A freak he was, but this freak ruled the Middlweight division in the 1970's, made 14 Title defences, held the Title for 7 years, and reitred champion, he was more than just a freak.

Not bad for a guy with welterweight legs don't ya think..........:rolleyes:

RightCross94
05-19-2009, 06:22 PM
i hate how people automatically disrespect a guy just because he is big for a division

monzon was a tall rangy guy, so what

glidesmack
05-19-2009, 07:18 PM
To me he's just a good light heavyweight who snuck his way into the middleweight division. You don't get legendary status doing that.

Obama
05-19-2009, 07:50 PM
.
I just don't think it a ordinary style full stop compared to any type of a fighter. Monzon was so hard to figure out, he may not have look breattaking on footage, but don't be fooled by this.



What fight were you watching, Benvennuti, was not beating his ass, before Monzon knocked him out, Nino may have been having his moments, but I always felt Monzon was in control of the fight, and was working a brillant tactical gameplan, in Benvanuti's home country of Italy.


Hmmmm.....Napoles had seen better days? What, Napoles hand't been beat in 4 years, and in those years had made 7 defences of his Welterweight crown. There may have been a huge strength and height factor, but how you can say Napoles was past his best is beyond me.



It may have not been the best resume of wins ever, but it was a pretty good resume. It included beating 3 Hall Of Famers in Emile Griffith, Jose Napoles and Nino Benvenuti. He beat some of Europes best fighters around in Tom Bogs and Jean Claude Bouttier.
And outstading contender Bennie Bruscoe, aswell as one of the hardest punchers and WBC Champion Rodrigo Valdez. Looks pretty good to me. How is this protection?



Wow you are really being picky pointing out 3 losses, and this is a pretty good stat actually 3 losses out of 100 fights, and all losses were revenged, did you know this. And you bring up his 9 draws, well actually it's a very well known fact that draws were a common thing in Argentina, Nicolino Locche had 14.

I can see you're really in love with this guy...

No point in arguing how "difficult" you feel his fighting style was. You're not going to see any light there.

No point in looking at any of his in ring performances...seems like even when the guy made mistakes it was executed beautifully to you.

And hell yes Napoles had seen better days. His best weight division is WELTERWEIGHT, not MIDDLEWEIGHT. It's a great win but its not a GREAT win. Same level as Hopkins beating Trinidad. Got nuthin to do with prime status.

The end of career resume is excellent, but that's what it is, and END of career resume. He fought 100 fights, but didn't start fighting anyone worth a damn until his last 16. His first 84 fights are protection. What other ATGs can you name who did something that absurd? If any, certainly not many.

Yes I know he avenged all his losses. And the only thing common about having a lot of draws against low level opposition is this:

1) The fighter wasn't as great as you want to believe he is

or

2) He didn't show up to fight for those draws, took them on short notice, didn't train, some valid reason to suggest he was only 50% at best. But for the real deal guy to show up and draw, inexcusable. I don't particularly know Monzon's circumstances, but the great fighters I rate at the very top of the p4p list don't have this many draws against weak opposition when they faced nothing but weak opposition for that entire portion of their career.


In conclusion, you seem to forget I got Monzon rated #7 MW, perhaps the second most prestigious division in the history of boxing... It's not like I'm calling the man a bum. :rofl:

Southpaw16BF
05-19-2009, 08:23 PM
No point in arguing how "difficult" you feel his fighting style was. You're not going to see any light there.
No point in looking at any of his in ring performances...seems like even when the guy made mistakes it was executed beautifully to you.

I feel you don't understand boxing, yes I have noticed mistakes from Monzon, but every fighter has made mistakes in his career.


And hell yes Napoles had seen better days. His best weight division is WELTERWEIGHT, not MIDDLEWEIGHT. It's a great win but its not a GREAT win. Same level as Hopkins beating Trinidad. Got nuthin to do with prime status.

Actually if you would read my post, who would of seen that I said Monzon had size and strength on Napoles, but to say Napoles was a shot fighter is a bogus comment. Like I stated previously to you, Napoles hadn't been beat in 4 years from 70 to 74, and had made 6 defences of his Title.

Well actually your wrong about Trinidad Hopkins, as funny enough I was just reading about this fight and some predictions before hand, and virtually everyyone was picking Trinidad. And you do realize Trinidad was coming off a win over William Joppy, and most were saying it was the best he has ever looked. Hopkins beat Trinidad due to him just being the overall better fighter.

You can't just put Hopkins beating Trinidad was all down to size. And at times Smaller men coming up from weight have caused champions alot of trouble and beat them. Hell Orginal Joe Walcott beat a good few big men and was avoided by most of the best one's, same goes for Sam Langford.

Micky Walker drew with future Heavyweight Champion Jack Sharkley and I could go on, I feel Monzon may need a little bit more credit for this win, fighters coming up in weight can be very dangerous.

The end of career resume is excellent, but that's what it is, and END of career resume. He fought 100 fights, but didn't start fighting anyone worth a damn until his last 16. His first 84 fights are protection. What other ATGs can you name who did something that absurd? If any, certainly not many.

Ever heard of learning your trade? Whats the big rush, to get to world titles? Your judging to much on todays fighters record at getting World Title shots which is usualy under 30. Back in Monzon's era and era's before, learning your trade and fighting often was common. And thats why Monzon probaly kept his Title and never lost it as he had exprience and had learnt his trade the proper way.

He also had some wins in Argentina, against fighters like Jorge Jose Fernandez (109-6-1) and Emilio Ale Ali good exprienced fighters who you will learn alot from.

And this all helped Monzon learn his craft and it helped him as a fighter in the future, as it proved with a 7 year Title reign and 14 defences of his crown.

And Monzon isn't on his own here, Marcel Cerdan had had 107 fights before coming to the USA to defeat Laverne Roach, and he defeated Tony Zale on his 111th bout. So like I said back down the era line, most champions had had alot more fights than todays current crop.

But you making out like its a bad thing, it's not in truth.

Yes I know he avenged all his losses. And the only thing common about having a lot of draws against low level opposition is this:

1) The fighter wasn't as great as you want to believe he is

or

2) He didn't show up to fight for those draws, took them on short notice, didn't train, some valid reason to suggest he was only 50% at best. But for the real deal guy to show up and draw, inexcusable. I don't particularly know Monzon's circumstances, but the great fighters I rate at the very top of the p4p list don't have this many draws against weak opposition when they faced nothing but weak opposition for that entire portion of their career.

Well Henry Armstrong musten be as great as I thought he was with 10 draws, same goes for Tony Canzoneri 10 draws, Nicolino Locche 14 draws, Jack Demspey 11 draws and many more. As you can see Monzon is not on his own in the draws deparment. But do you discredit these great fighters for draws? Draws can be down to a number of things, learning your craft, bad decisions, etc you get my drift.

You motto on things is a really pour mindset to have.


In conclusion, you seem to forget I got Monzon rated #7 MW, perhaps the second most prestigious division in the history of boxing... It's not like I'm calling the man a bum.

I'am am not biased to towards fighters, and I still feel Monzon is to low. And I disagree with most things you say, as none make sense or none are justified.

Kid McCoy
05-19-2009, 08:46 PM
The end of career resume is excellent, but that's what it is, and END of career resume. He fought 100 fights, but didn't start fighting anyone worth a damn until his last 16. His first 84 fights are protection. What other ATGs can you name who did something that absurd? If any, certainly not many.

Yes I know he avenged all his losses. And the only thing common about having a lot of draws against low level opposition is this:

1) The fighter wasn't as great as you want to believe he is

or

2) He didn't show up to fight for those draws, took them on short notice, didn't train, some valid reason to suggest he was only 50% at best. But for the real deal guy to show up and draw, inexcusable. I don't particularly know Monzon's circumstances, but the great fighters I rate at the very top of the p4p list don't have this many draws against weak opposition when they faced nothing but weak opposition for that entire portion of their career.


If you don't particularly know Monzon's circumstances why trash him?

Monzon was not "protected". Protected is a Hopkins or a Calzaghe sitting on an alphabet title and defending it against nobodies for years or a Mayweather cherry-picking weak titlists.

Monzon, like his Latin American compatriots Duran, Jofre, Chavez etc, grew up in conditions unimaginable in the West, had little amateur experience and was taking on tough pros from the outset in phonebooth sized rings. There's no such thing as protection in such boxing hotbeds, they're thrown to the wolves early and either sink or swim. His early blemishes should be seen in that context.

How do you know his pre-title opposition was no good? Because Boxrec lists them all as having 2 or 3 pro fights?

As for draws, in Brazil there is a rule (or at least there was), whereby if a fighter doesn't win a decision by at least 4 points then it is declared a draw, which is why Eder Jofre has several draws on his record. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a similar rule in Argentina.

Southpaw16BF
05-19-2009, 08:53 PM
If you don't particularly know Monzon's circumstances why trash him?

Monzon was not "protected". Protected is a Hopkins or a Calzaghe sitting on an alphabet title and defending it against nobodies for years or a Mayweather cherry-picking weak titlists.

Monzon, like his Latin American compatriots Duran, Jofre, Chavez etc, grew up in conditions unimaginable in the West, had little amateur experience and was taking on tough pros from the outset in phonebooth sized rings. There's no such thing as protection in such boxing hotbeds, they're thrown to the wolves early and either sink or swim. His early blemishes should be seen in that context.

How do you know his pre-title opposition was no good? Because Boxrec lists them all as having 2 or 3 pro fights?

As for draws, in Brazil there is a rule (or at least there was), whereby if a fighter doesn't win a decision by at least 4 points then it is declared a draw, which is why Eder Jofre has several draws on his record. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a similar rule in Argentina.

Gotta agree with mostly everything written there, but Monzon didn't have little amature background, he had pretty extensive one, he around the 80+ fight range of amature bouts it is belived.

And the same goes for Eder Jofre who had alot of amature expreince as he went the 1956 Melbourne Olympic Games losing in the second round against Claudio Barrientos. Jofre was in the gym from a young age also.

Obama
05-19-2009, 08:59 PM
I feel you don't understand boxing, yes I have noticed mistakes from Monzon, but every fighter has made mistakes in his career.




Actually if you would read my post, who would of seen that I said Monzon had size and strength on Napoles, but to say Napoles was a shot fighter is a bogus comment. Like I stated previously to you, Napoles hadn't been beat in 4 years from 70 to 74, and had made 6 defences of his Title.

Well actually your wrong about Trinidad Hopkins, as funny enough I was just reading about this fight and some predictions before hand, and virtually everyyone was picking Trinidad. And you do realize Trinidad was coming off a win over William Joppy, and most were saying it was the best he has ever looked. Hopkins beat Trinidad due to him just being the overall better fighter.

You can't just put Hopkins beating Trinidad was all down to size. And at times Smaller men coming up from weight have caused champions alot of trouble and beat them. Hell Orginal Joe Walcott beat a good few big men and was avoided by most of the best one's, same goes for Sam Langford.

Micky Walker drew with future Heavyweight Champion Jack Sharkley and I could go on, I feel Monzon may need a little bit more credit for this win, fighters coming up in weight can be very dangerous.



Ever heard of learning your trade? Whats the big rush, to get to world titles? Your judging to much on todays fighters record at getting World Title shots which is usualy under 30. Back in Monzon's era and era's before, learning your trade and fighting often was common. And thats why Monzon probaly kept his Title and never lost it as he had exprience and had learnt his trade the proper way.

He also had some wins in Argentina, against fighters like Jorge Jose Fernandez (109-6-1) and Emilio Ale Ali good exprienced fighters who you will learn alot from.

And this all helped Monzon learn his craft and it helped him as a fighter in the future, as it proved with a 7 year Title reign and 14 defences of his crown.

And Monzon isn't on his own here, Marcel Cerdan had had 107 fights before coming to the USA to defeat Laverne Roach, and he defeated Tony Zale on his 111th bout. So like I said back down the era line, most champions had had alot more fights than todays current crop.

But you making out like its a bad thing, it's not in truth.



Well Henry Armstrong musten be as great as I thought he was with 10 draws, same goes for Tony Canzoneri 10 draws, Nicolino Locche 14 draws, Jack Demspey 11 draws and many more. As you can see Monzon is not on his own in the draws deparment. But do you discredit these great fighters for draws? Draws can be down to a number of things, learning your craft, bad decisions, etc you get my drift.

You motto on things is a really pour mindset to have.




I'am am not biased to towards fighters, and I still feel Monzon is to low. And I disagree with most things you say, as none make sense or none are justified.

Sigh, arguing with you is impossible. You didn't understand anything I said. I mean, I'd make a 2 part statement, and you only address part 1. The statement doesn't hold without part 2, yet you always choose to ignore it.

Obama
05-19-2009, 09:03 PM
If you don't particularly know Monzon's circumstances why trash him?

Monzon was not "protected". Protected is a Hopkins or a Calzaghe sitting on an alphabet title and defending it against nobodies for years or a Mayweather cherry-picking weak titlists.

Monzon, like his Latin American compatriots Duran, Jofre, Chavez etc, grew up in conditions unimaginable in the West, had little amateur experience and was taking on tough pros from the outset in phonebooth sized rings. There's no such thing as protection in such boxing hotbeds, they're thrown to the wolves early and either sink or swim. His early blemishes should be seen in that context.

How do you know his pre-title opposition was no good? Because Boxrec lists them all as having 2 or 3 pro fights?

As for draws, in Brazil there is a rule (or at least there was), whereby if a fighter doesn't win a decision by at least 4 points then it is declared a draw, which is why Eder Jofre has several draws on his record. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a similar rule in Argentina.

I'm not trashing him. I just feel he was protected. And I feel the VERY greatest aren't protected. If I don't know anything about the guys he beat and can't FIND anything significant about them / notice any meaningful wins in their resume, then yes, I'm going to assume they aren't notable wins.

Why are people getting upset for why I don't think he deserves to be a top 3 Middleweight? :?!:

Southpaw16BF
05-19-2009, 09:13 PM
I'm not trashing him. I just feel he was protected. And I feel the VERY greatest aren't protected. If I don't know anything about the guys he beat and can't FIND anything significant about them / notice any meaningful wins in their resume, then yes, I'm going to assume they aren't notable wins.

Why are people getting upset for why I don't think he deserves to be a top 3 Middleweight? :?!:

As most people can see you are talking bogus. But yet you can't realize it, not just over Monzon but most things. Basically.........

No offence....

portuge puncher
05-19-2009, 09:18 PM
my personal stand, is that monzon could have beaten anyone of the greats, the guy always new how to win.

i rate him number 1

Obama
05-19-2009, 09:23 PM
As most people can see you are talking bogus. But yet you can't realize it, not just over Monzon but most things. Basically.........

No offence....

You are quite petty. You know nothing about me at all. I've made under 100 posts and you pretend to know what I'm all about. :footinmou

Southpaw16BF
05-19-2009, 09:29 PM
You are quite petty. You know nothing about me at all. I've made under 100 posts and you pretend to know what I'm all about. :footinmou

Well up to now the posts I have seen from you, some have been bogus.....And I don't know what your all about, nor do I claim to know.

Obama
05-19-2009, 09:29 PM
I've yet to see you comprehend a single one of my posts, so if I was looking at my posts through your eyes, I would consider them bogus as well.

glidesmack
05-20-2009, 12:09 AM
He was boring as all hell that's why.

GJC
05-20-2009, 12:20 PM
Think that perhaps Monzon's under rating might be his lack of fights in America maybe? I know it shouldn't matter but might explain? As for Monzon's style he was a very very solid fighter with little weaknesses. I guess you could say he didn't have a style that stirred the blood as such but would be a match for any MW in history. He wasn't flashy or a one punch knockout artist, what he was good at was systematically beating the other fighter up.
Like I said previously I have him grouped with Ketchell, Greb, SRR and Hagler so not in too shoddy company. I might rate him 5th in that company,probably an old man's bias rather than by any scientefic reason. I will say though that I would not put any money on any MW fighter against him!

Kid McCoy
05-20-2009, 01:57 PM
Think that perhaps Monzon's under rating might be his lack of fights in America maybe? I know it shouldn't matter but might explain? As for Monzon's style he was a very very solid fighter with little weaknesses. I guess you could say he didn't have a style that stirred the blood as such but would be a match for any MW in history. He wasn't flashy or a one punch knockout artist, what he was good at was systematically beating the other fighter up.
Like I said previously I have him grouped with Ketchell, Greb, SRR and Hagler so not in too shoddy company. I might rate him 5th in that company,probably an old man's bias rather than by any scientefic reason. I will say though that I would not put any money on any MW fighter against him!

Good post, I agree with most of that. Monzon only fought once in America and only fought a handful of Americans, so it's probably why he isn't as well known in the States, although in my experience he's always been highly regarded in boxing circles.

Monzon was tall and strong, he could box, punch and take a punch, he had a ramrod jab, could fight as the aggressor or a counterpuncher, inside and outside, he was disciplined (in the ring), and a very difficult fighter to beat. And after dominating his closest rival in his final fight, he did something precious few other boxers have managed and retired with his title. For me he's undoubtedly one of the top 2 or 3 middleweights.

1SILVA
05-20-2009, 04:09 PM
why? i know many boxing fans have a ton to say about hagler, greb, SRR, and hopkins when it comes to great MW's. but why is carlos monzon almost always looked over? i think he did more then all of them.

is it because of compitition?
because he had very good compitition: emile griffith, nino beuventi, rodrigo valdez, bennie briscoe.

is it because he didnt accomplish enough?
MW champ for 7 years with 14 defenses. a record of 89-3-8 59 ko's.

he always seemed overshadowed by other greats, especially by hagler, but i dont understand why.

What I loved about Monzon was his ability to fight as a tall, rangy counterpuncher. You could not lure him into a brawl. He stood upright and controlled the fight with his steady left jab followed by a very good right hand. He was not spectacular, but he was consistent and piled up points with that jab. He had a great chin and unmatched stamina. He is at no worse the third best Middle of all time

Mikhnienko
05-20-2009, 05:42 PM
What's with several posters throwing Hopkins name around? He's a good good fighter but to be mentioned in a top 6 all time is beyond laughable. It's very debatable whether or not he's top six in his own era

Toney
Jones
Nunn
Mcclellan
Benn
Eubank
McCallum
Watson
Collins
Jackson

Hop could step in the ring with anyone and put up a respectable performance but he'd get beat by any true great Fitzsimmons Greb Langford Ketchel Monzon (Honorable mentions i like reading about Cerdan Hostack Steele that are underrated or forgotten by some) were a whole different breed

Leakbeak
05-21-2009, 04:33 AM
If you are talking about the perception amongst purists, I did not even realise he was not considered as a legend and took it for granted that it was fact! If you are talking about the media, then you are correct as they do not perceive him in the same light as Hagler et al. But never mind what the media say! After all, they would have us beleive that Khan is now on the verge of greatness!

glidesmack
05-21-2009, 04:37 AM
somewhat similar to bob fitzsimmons with his weight and freakish build but fitz won the heavyweight title and monzon beat up guys his own size.

Leakbeak
05-21-2009, 05:31 AM
somewhat similar to bob fitzsimmons with his weight and freakish build but fitz won the heavyweight title and monzon beat up guys his own size.

Nowt wrong with that IMO. Fitzsimmons compoeted in a completely different era. I'm curious to know if there is much footage of his fights if any? I have ben searching high and low. Any help would be nice, cheers.

TheGreatA
05-21-2009, 08:02 AM
Nowt wrong with that IMO. Fitzsimmons compoeted in a completely different era. I'm curious to know if there is much footage of his fights if any? I have ben searching high and low. Any help would be nice, cheers.

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glidesmack
05-21-2009, 08:23 AM
funny story about that fight, fitz's opponent was "gentleman" jim corbett, but according to fitz he was anything but a gentleman. Well after the fight was over and bitter at his loss he ran across the ring and punched fitz in the back of the head. After he was restrained and a few minutes later, he walked up to fitz and apologized, then asked for a rematch. Fitz said he was retiring, at which point corbett became enraged again and said he was going to attack fitz in the street. Fitz replied calmly "If you do that, I will kill you."

Fitz trained with a small round bag attached to a string, which as far as I can tell lends itself to building punches that convey momentum rather than force. This is supported slightly by the fact that viewers claimed the body blow that dropped corbett was grotesque and seem to indent corbett's stomach as though it were butter, something a real snapping force punch probably wouldn't do, although jack dempsey was known to have caved in a guy's chest with a hook.

GJC
05-21-2009, 10:53 AM
No we shouldn't especially the draw with Briscoe which was likely a hometown decision. He did avenge most of his draws though.



My understanding was that a draw was a fair (well as fair as a draw can be)result against Briscoe. I believe that Monzon counted Briscoe as his toughest opponent, 2nd fight was close too.

Mikhnienko
05-21-2009, 08:17 PM
Fitz said he was retiring, at which point corbett became enraged again and said he was going to attack fitz in the street. Fitz replied calmly "If you do that, I will kill you."


lol best story i'v heard in a while