View Full Version : (Poll) SRR the greatest of all time? According to Ali - Yes!


-Blackout-
05-12-2009, 11:26 AM
How anyone can doubt SRR's talent is beyond me

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Greatest boxer of ALL TIME...? I'll say yes.

What you say? best boxer past AND present who ever lived?

Discuss.

Poll to come

Miburo
05-12-2009, 11:30 AM
(Copied over)
This is pretty well-known information, anyone who has seen both fight should immediately see how Ali tried to incorporate Robinson's style: everything from the footwork routine in the corner before the bell to punching from the waist. Ali attempted to be an homage to Robinson, although I think ultimately they ended up being fairly stylistically distinct. Robinson was much more willing to exchange openly.

The Underboss
05-12-2009, 01:08 PM
He's NOT the greatest, Ali just respects Robinson that's why he's saying Ray is the greatest.

DarchinyFAN
05-12-2009, 01:19 PM
Only contrarians begging for attention and trying to prove how "smart" they are deny this.

Southpaw16BF
05-12-2009, 01:33 PM
He's NOT the greatest, Ali just respects Robinson that's why he's saying Ray is the greatest.

Ali respects lots of All Time Greats, but he dosen't call all of them the greatest. He only says Ray Robinson is the greatest.

GJC
05-14-2009, 12:48 PM
His top of my list.

Lacrimosa
05-14-2009, 04:10 PM
It is as simple as that... When you look at him fighing you understand that he does everything as close as possible to perfect.

pbftxrs316
05-16-2009, 01:49 PM
it is as simple as that... When you look at him fighing you understand that he does everything as close as possible to perfect.so does floyd mayweather jr...

Ziggy Stardust
05-16-2009, 02:53 PM
so does floyd mayweather jr...

You mean Floyd runs and takes the occasional pot shot perfectly.

Really, I've got every single Floyd fight and I can't for the life of me figure out where these post about him being "the best skilled fighter ever" come from. Cripes, he isn't even the best skilled fighter I've seen in RECENT memory (ever heard of Pernell Whitaker?). As for speed, I'd say p4p Roy Jones was faster than Floyd.

Poet

The Iron Man
05-16-2009, 03:21 PM
I think SRR is the best fighter ever. Mayweather isnt anywhere near.

them_apples
05-16-2009, 03:40 PM
In terms of accomplishments he's up there.

He jumped weight classes back when there wasn't inbetweens (am I right about this?)

he also went 90 some odd fights unbeaten

For me it's hard picking if he is the greatest p4p or not because his competition wasn't as good as others with shorter careers.

I also don't believe you can claim to be the greatest of all time when a fighter could come after you and surpass you. The whole "greatest" Idea is a joke in itself.

Either way I have Robinson in my top 3.

there are a couple things that need to be taken into account.

Having a long reign and not losing can't be one of the big reasons for a fighters greatness, if that was the case, Joe Calzaghe is the best fighter of our generation (which I strongly disagree). It's not possible to fight as much as back in the day, so having 40+ fights and never losing is a big feat. By today's standards.

Joe Calzaghe however has fought below average competition his entire career and just squeaked a decision over his toughest opponent who was 43 year of age.

Ray Robinson has had a similar career, he fought the names he could, but the majority of his 90-0 were not great competition. This needs to be taken into consideration as well.

The only reason I brought Joe Calzaghe up is to clarify that not everyone is using the 90-0 to determine his greatness. I realize SRR fought better competition than Calzaghe, but enough to garner the top spot?

What would have happened if he ran into Ray Leonard? or Marvin Hagler..even the 6'1 Thomas Hearns or Roberto Duran. Those kind of caliber fighters simply did not exist during his fighting days. Jake Lamotta has nothing on Marvin Hagler.

All speculation and trying to see if anyone actually has a reason to make him p4p no.1 other then just hopping on the band wagon.

Southpaw16BF
05-16-2009, 03:46 PM
he also went 90 some odd fights undefeated.

No he went only 40 fights unbeaten, Jake Lamotaa beat him when he was 40-0, On a UD victory. Do Lamotta did have a 16 pound weight advantage, and Robinson did defeat him 5 times.

Robinson did do once carry a amazing record of 128-1-2 going into the Randy Turpin 1st fight.

MarkScott
05-16-2009, 03:46 PM
I would say Joe Gans, followed by Ali. Robinson was flashy but his record included a lot of losses to not great fignters.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786439947/ref=s9_sims_gw_s1_p14_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0X6T565491T323D1J83G&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

TheGreatA
05-16-2009, 03:56 PM
No he went only 40 fights unbeaten, Jake Lamotaa beat him when he was 40-0, On a UD victory. Do Lamotta did have a 16 pound weight advantage, and Robinson did defeat him 5 times.

Robinson did do once carry a amazing record of 128-1-2 going into the Randy Turpin 1st fight.

He did go 90 fights unbeaten after losing to LaMotta.

Southpaw16BF
05-16-2009, 03:57 PM
He did go 90 fights unbeaten after losing to LaMotta.

Well I assumed he ment 90 fights without ever losing, which would not be true like I said, as Jake Lamotta beat him when he was 40 fights unbeaten.

Obama
05-16-2009, 04:20 PM
I consider Robinson the greatest, followed by Sam Langford as a close second. A very close second. Both of them were pretty much untouchable in their primes and for the most part couldn't be beat by anyone in their natural weight class or even 1 above it (note, this is considering Langford as a natural Middleweight, even tho he started at below Welterweight and drew with one of the greatest Welterweights of all time). The fact that Langford can legitimately also be considered a top 10 Heavyweight is flat out amazing.

portuge puncher
05-16-2009, 04:46 PM
he is without a doubt the greatest.

at one point he had a record of 136-1

and he has more great fights against great fighters then anyone in history.
he beat lamotta, he beat kid gallivan, he beat tommy bell, he beat rocky graziano, he beat carl olson, he beat carmine basilio, he beat gene fullmer, exc.

was the welterwieght champ
was the MW champ 5 times
almost all his losses came past his prime

HE MUST BE THE GREATEST!!!!!!!!!

Southpaw16BF
05-17-2009, 12:46 PM
at one point he had a record of 136-1

His record was amazing, but it was never 136-1. Going into the Randy Turpin fight it was 128-1-2, after the defaet to Turpin it was 128-2-2.

portuge puncher
05-17-2009, 03:35 PM
His record was amazing, but it was never 136-1. Going into the Randy Turpin fight it was 128-1-2, after the defaet to Turpin it was 128-2-2.

oh well, i was close, only 5 fights off.

Kid McCoy
05-18-2009, 01:05 AM
Not "without a doubt" as there are a handful of others who also have a strong case for being #1, but the space between them is the width of gnat's eyelash.

glidesmack
05-18-2009, 06:36 AM
Maybe I'm a contrarian trying to prove I'm smart, but here's an argument. To me, the top pfp guy all time, if he's fighting at middleweight, has to be able to beat joey maxim at light heavyweight, very decisively. Even if it's 200 degrees. Plain and simple. Ray outboxed him, got tired, and collapsed. Sure it was 200 degrees, but it wasn't any cooler in maxim's corner.

Fighting at 160, I think a ton of guys would have beat joey maxim, most notably, at least historically,

jack dempsey
mike tyson
bob fitzsimmons
harry greb
muhammad ali
henry armstrong
even bernard hopkins

I think dempsey, fitz, tyson and armstrong all would have knocked maxim out.

Not all those guys are in the running for pfp alltime, but some of them are.

Also, part of me wants the PFP best all time to be a guy who could do major damage in a brawl, since a lot of fights in real life are like that. I think mike, jack, and greb would do better out of the ring.

Ziggy Stardust
05-18-2009, 01:39 PM
Maybe I'm a contrarian trying to prove I'm smart, but here's an argument. To me, the top pfp guy all time, if he's fighting at middleweight, has to be able to beat joey maxim at light heavyweight, very decisively. Even if it's 200 degrees. Plain and simple. Ray outboxed him, got tired, and collapsed. Sure it was 200 degrees, but it wasn't any cooler in maxim's corner.

Fighting at 160, I think a ton of guys would have beat joey maxim, most notably, at least historically,

jack dempsey
mike tyson
bob fitzsimmons
harry greb
muhammad ali
henry armstrong
even bernard hopkins

I think dempsey, fitz, tyson and armstrong all would have knocked maxim out.

Not all those guys are in the running for pfp alltime, but some of them are.

Also, part of me wants the PFP best all time to be a guy who could do major damage in a brawl, since a lot of fights in real life are like that. I think mike, jack, and greb would do better out of the ring.

When was the last time Ali and Tyson weighed 160? When they were 8 years old? As for Robinson's problems with the heat in the Maxim fight; some people are more succeptable to heat stroke then others. It isn't considered a "trait" when used to compare fighters as it's only an issue in very unusual circumstances such at the Maxim fight.

PS. Whether a fighter gets the KO or not is rather immaterial. There are plenty of undisputed ATGs that where not KO punchers (see Willie Pep). Some people may find KOs entertaining but the entertainment factor isn't a measure of how good a fighter is.

Poet

TheGreatA
05-18-2009, 02:31 PM
People should not forget that Robinson started at lightweight and actually beat the lightweight champion Sammy Angott in a non-title bout.

And Armstrong doesn't beat Joey Maxim. To suggest that he could KO Maxim is utterly ridiculous.

JMM-PAC
05-18-2009, 02:39 PM
People should not forget that Robinson started at lightweight and actually beat the lightweight champion Sammy Angott in a non-title bout.

And Armstrong doesn't beat Joey Maxim. To suggest that he could KO Maxim is utterly ridiculous.

yo dude, y have you changed your name from the machine to the great a. and have you got another account called the machine? because there is another machine.

whats going on lol

TheGreatA
05-18-2009, 02:40 PM
People should not forget that Robinson started at lightweight and actually beat the lightweight champion Sammy Angott in a non-title bout.

And Armstrong doesn't beat Joey Maxim. To suggest that he could KO Maxim is utterly ridiculous.

You could also say that if Dempsey can't beat Fireman Flynn, Tyson can't beat Buster Douglas, Danny Williams, Kevin McBride, Fitzsimmons can't beat Jim Hall, Muhammad Ali can't beat Leon Spinks, Bernard Hopkins can't beat Jermain Taylor, Harry Greb can't beat Mike O'Dowd, etc. then they shouldn't be considered anywhere near the p4p number 1... You could say that about any fighter.

TheGreatA
05-18-2009, 02:43 PM
yo dude, y have you changed your name from the machine to the great a. and have you got another account called the machine? because there is another machine.

whats going on lol

Someone thought it would be funny to create an account with my previous nickname (TheManchine) so I decided to change it to avoid any confusion.

JMM-PAC
05-18-2009, 02:43 PM
Someone thought it would be funny to create an account with my previous nickname (TheManchine) so I decided to change it to avoid any confusion.

but how, when you can't have the same username as another person? how has he done it, as you were here before him?

when he typed in the machine for his username, it should of come up this username is in use?

GJC
05-19-2009, 12:43 PM
To me, the top pfp guy all time, if he's fighting at middleweight, has to be able to beat joey maxim at light heavyweight, very decisively. Even if it's 200 degrees. Plain and simple. Ray outboxed him, got tired, and collapsed. Sure it was 200 degrees, but it wasn't any cooler in maxim's corner.



I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong here but to put the conditions of the Maxim v Robinson fight into perspective but I believe the referee collapsed from heat exhaustion long before SRR. Credit to Maxim for coping with the heat better than SRR but it was only the heat that beat SRR that night.
As for pfp greatness being based on being able to move out of your weight and beat other fighters surely that kind of defeats the point of measuring fighters in the context of p4p?

Southpaw16BF
05-19-2009, 02:48 PM
I think dempsey, fitz, tyson and armstrong all would have knocked maxim out.

What? Henry Armstrong would have knocked out Joey Maxim. This is one of the most bogus comments I have ever heard. You do realize in his peak years Maxim was never stopped. Out of 115 fights he was only ever stopped early in his career when he was only 21 years of age.

And you do realize Jersey Joe Walcott, Sugar Ray Robinson and Archie Moore all could not KO Maxim out, and all these were harder punchers than Armstrong and weighed alot more.

Armstrong cound't stop alot less tougher fighters than Maxim. I'am 99.9% than Henry Armstrong would not stop Joey Maxim.

glidesmack
05-19-2009, 07:42 PM
Alright. Cut the ****. I say 1919 jack dempsey, scaled down to 160, knocks maxim's head off. They said ray could "rip punches like dempsey." He couldn't. Dempsey threw his left hook from a southpaw stance like a haymaker and it was harder pfp than any hook ray ever threw, even against fullmer.

them_apples
05-19-2009, 09:30 PM
Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran both showed great diversity against better opposition then SRR. Robinson just fought A hell of a lot more. It depends on what floats your boat.

I like to put Robinson as one of the greatest WW of all time, based on achievement's, the best.

p4p wise I take into account fighters jumping weight classes as it requires more skill then a physical advantage. (Ray was a lot bigger then his opponent's at 147).

For p4p we got:

Duran
Leonard
Armstrong
Hearns
Whitaker
Pacquiao

in no particular order, even Holyfield get's a shout, incredible that he was so durable coming up from cruiser. He looks tiny compared to Bowe and actually beat him at his own game in one of the fights.
Mayweather

MR. V
05-19-2009, 09:30 PM
let me see a modern day boxer try and reach a wimping 80 win career and have 5 pro fites in 28 days. that'll never happen. sugar ray was the best ever and nobody well ever ever come close.

Kid McCoy
05-19-2009, 09:57 PM
Alright. Cut the ****. I say 1919 jack dempsey, scaled down to 160, knocks maxim's head off. They said ray could "rip punches like dempsey." He couldn't. Dempsey threw his left hook from a southpaw stance like a haymaker and it was harder pfp than any hook ray ever threw, even against fullmer.

But by the same token, shrink Joey Maxim down to 147, Ray's best weight, and Ray KO's him.

But they were fighting in reality, not p4p, and in reality it was a guy who peaked at welter fighting the light-heavyweight champ.

Obama
05-19-2009, 10:08 PM
Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran both showed great diversity against better opposition then SRR. Robinson just fought A hell of a lot more. It depends on what floats your boat.

I like to put Robinson as one of the greatest WW of all time, based on achievement's, the best.

p4p wise I take into account fighters jumping weight classes as it requires more skill then a physical advantage. (Ray was a lot bigger then his opponent's at 147).

For p4p we got:

Duran
Leonard
Armstrong
Hearns
Whitaker
Pacquiao

in no particular order, even Holyfield get's a shout, incredible that he was so durable coming up from cruiser. He looks tiny compared to Bowe and actually beat him at his own game in one of the fights.
Mayweather

SRR beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott), whilst never losing and maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. He was basically what RJJ was at Middleweight. Considering Robinson had also had the LHW title in the bag before he feinted in the outdoor sun, he realistically was good enough to be a 4 division Champion WITHOUT junior titles. If you add the junior titles, that's a 7 division Champion. Also, keep in mind Robinson was already 19 years old when he turned pro. He had an extensive amateur career before that where he had a record of 85-0, winning the FEATHERWEIGHT Golden Gloves Championship in the process. Had he turned pro at an earlier age, like Manny Pacquiao did, he very well could have been in contention to be what we would refer to as today a "9 division" World Champion. Kinda puts what guys do today in perspective, now doesn't it?

TheGreatA
05-19-2009, 11:42 PM
Alright. Cut the ****. I say 1919 jack dempsey, scaled down to 160, knocks maxim's head off. They said ray could "rip punches like dempsey." He couldn't. Dempsey threw his left hook from a southpaw stance like a haymaker and it was harder pfp than any hook ray ever threw, even against fullmer.

Dempsey couldn't knock out worse light heavyweights than Maxim.

I guess Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott couldn't punch either since none of them were able to finish off Joey Maxim and each of them had several tries at that.

TheGreatA
05-19-2009, 11:56 PM
Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran both showed great diversity against better opposition then SRR. Robinson just fought A hell of a lot more. It depends on what floats your boat.

I like to put Robinson as one of the greatest WW of all time, based on achievement's, the best.

p4p wise I take into account fighters jumping weight classes as it requires more skill then a physical advantage. (Ray was a lot bigger then his opponent's at 147).

For p4p we got:

Duran
Leonard
Armstrong
Hearns
Whitaker
Pacquiao

in no particular order, even Holyfield get's a shout, incredible that he was so durable coming up from cruiser. He looks tiny compared to Bowe and actually beat him at his own game in one of the fights.
Mayweather

He was certainly not any bigger than 5'11 Kid Gavilan, 6 feet tall George Costner, 5'11 Jackie Wilson, 5'10 Fritzie Zivic... Some of his greatest wins at welterweight.

Robinson regularly overcame 10+ lb weight differences while facing middleweights and light heavyweights.

The time he lost to LaMotta he was giving away 16 lbs in weight. Maxim outweighed him by the same amount.

Robinson basically went from competing as a featherweight in the amateurs, to defeating the lightweight champion in a non-title bout at 135 lbs, becoming perhaps the greatest welterweight of all time, winning the middleweight title 5 times and challenging for the light heavyweight title against Joey Maxim.

That is the definition of "pound for pound".

RightCross94
05-20-2009, 12:13 AM
Robinson was actually the unofficial 135 lb champion, he beat sammy angott in a non title match

he almost won the LHW title, weighing in at 158 lbs

and la motta outweighed him by heaps
he showed incredible versatility against a wide range of opponents, he got up on his toes and boxed, he had the power to put you away, the chin to slug it out in the trenches....

robinson is the greatest fighter ever, there is no doubt in my mind

RightCross94
05-20-2009, 12:16 AM
In terms of accomplishments he's up there.

He jumped weight classes back when there wasn't inbetweens (am I right about this?)

he also went 90 some odd fights unbeaten

For me it's hard picking if he is the greatest p4p or not because his competition wasn't as good as others with shorter careers.

I also don't believe you can claim to be the greatest of all time when a fighter could come after you and surpass you. The whole "greatest" Idea is a joke in itself.

Either way I have Robinson in my top 3.

there are a couple things that need to be taken into account.

Having a long reign and not losing can't be one of the big reasons for a fighters greatness, if that was the case, Joe Calzaghe is the best fighter of our generation (which I strongly disagree). It's not possible to fight as much as back in the day, so having 40+ fights and never losing is a big feat. By today's standards.

Joe Calzaghe however has fought below average competition his entire career and just squeaked a decision over his toughest opponent who was 43 year of age.

Ray Robinson has had a similar career, he fought the names he could, but the majority of his 90-0 were not great competition. This needs to be taken into consideration as well.

The only reason I brought Joe Calzaghe up is to clarify that not everyone is using the 90-0 to determine his greatness. I realize SRR fought better competition than Calzaghe, but enough to garner the top spot?

What would have happened if he ran into Ray Leonard? or Marvin Hagler..even the 6'1 Thomas Hearns or Roberto Duran. Those kind of caliber fighters simply did not exist during his fighting days. Jake Lamotta has nothing on Marvin Hagler.

All speculation and trying to see if anyone actually has a reason to make him p4p no.1 other then just hopping on the band wagon.

robinson had phenomenal levels of opposition, he fought basically everyone from 135 to 160 and then the 175 lb champ

he could beat all those guys imo, they would all be very close fights but if ray had a best of 3 with all those guys i say he wins 2 out 3 against all

RightCross94
05-20-2009, 12:21 AM
Maybe I'm a contrarian trying to prove I'm smart, but here's an argument. To me, the top pfp guy all time, if he's fighting at middleweight, has to be able to beat joey maxim at light heavyweight, very decisively. Even if it's 200 degrees. Plain and simple. Ray outboxed him, got tired, and collapsed. Sure it was 200 degrees, but it wasn't any cooler in maxim's corner.

Fighting at 160, I think a ton of guys would have beat joey maxim, most notably, at least historically,

jack dempsey
mike tyson
bob fitzsimmons
harry greb
muhammad ali
henry armstrong
even bernard hopkins

I think dempsey, fitz, tyson and armstrong all would have knocked maxim out.

Not all those guys are in the running for pfp alltime, but some of them are.

Also, part of me wants the PFP best all time to be a guy who could do major damage in a brawl, since a lot of fights in real life are like that. I think mike, jack, and greb would do better out of the ring.

but ray didnt start at MW, he started at 135 and was WW champ already when he moved to MW


wtf are you on about?? guys like ali would have weighed 160 when they were 14-15 or so years old, how could they have fought and beat joey maxim as teenagers?

thats idiotic and purely speculation, just because a fighter boxes instead of brawls doesnt mean they cant streetfight, ray was a black kid growing up on the streets of harlem in the 30's...im sure he could handle himself

glidesmack
05-20-2009, 12:51 AM
The whole idea of a pound for pound debate involves scaling fighters up or down to the same size. If anyone doesn't understand this from now on I'm just going to assume they're total idiots and won't clarify myself.

Even though the debate centers around who the best fighter is assuming everyone's the same size, I think I good way to measure that, ironically, is to see how fighters do when fighting out of their division. If a fighter can succeed at higher weights than their own, they'll probably do pretty well against opposition of equal weight.

several fighters have done exceptionally well against significantly larger opposition. A few that come to mind are greb, dempsey, tyson, armstrong, and bob fitzsimmons. Even ali and gene tunney did better against taller men than robinson did. Robinson had no problem with fighters who outweighed him by 15-20 pounds but they had to be shorter.

Obama
05-20-2009, 02:37 AM
Ali actually seemed to do much better with big brutes rather than smaller Heavyweights. Depending on styles, sometimes smaller & faster fighters can be harder to beat.

TheGreatA
05-20-2009, 08:51 AM
The whole idea of a pound for pound debate involves scaling fighters up or down to the same size. If anyone doesn't understand this from now on I'm just going to assume they're total idiots and won't clarify myself.

Even though the debate centers around who the best fighter is assuming everyone's the same size, I think I good way to measure that, ironically, is to see how fighters do when fighting out of their division. If a fighter can succeed at higher weights than their own, they'll probably do pretty well against opposition of equal weight.

several fighters have done exceptionally well against significantly larger opposition. A few that come to mind are greb, dempsey, tyson, armstrong, and bob fitzsimmons. Even ali and gene tunney did better against taller men than robinson did. Robinson had no problem with fighters who outweighed him by 15-20 pounds but they had to be shorter.

Again there is no truth to what you are saying. The men Robinson struggled with the most were actually short pressure fighters who were able to get under his punches and rough him up.

He certainly has no trouble dispatching German middleweight and light heavyweight Hans Stretz:

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6 feet tall George Costner was twice knocked out in the very first round by Robinson. Jose Basora was the same height and was also KO'd in the first.

Middleweight champ Bobo Olson was no match for Sugar Ray:

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glidesmack
05-20-2009, 10:59 AM
I don't know. He was good. I'm just not convinced. He had the best career, I just don't know if some other fighters weren't better at their peak. I also hear way too many historians saying the 20's were tougher. If Robinson's era isn't the toughest then he gets way more credit than he deserves.

Obama
05-20-2009, 02:22 PM
I don't know. He was good. I'm just not convinced. He had the best career, I just don't know if some other fighters weren't better at their peak. I also hear way too many historians saying the 20's were tougher. If Robinson's era isn't the toughest then he gets way more credit than he deserves.

No era is the toughest for every weight division at the same time. Robinson did however fight in perhaps THE golden age of Welterweights. I'd say it would be rivaled by mid 70s to mid 80s. Perhaps some other eras.

glidesmack
05-21-2009, 05:34 AM
I don't buy it I say his era was weak and he's way overrated.

them_apples
05-21-2009, 06:00 AM
I don't buy it I say his era was weak and he's way overrated.

he fought solid competition, I disagree about his era being the golden era for WW's. The WW division has always had talent even to this day.

Had Robinson run into Duran, Leonard, Hearns, Trinidad, DLH I don't think he would get the W from all of them. All of those guys have an aspect to their style that could give Robinson trouble, Although I think Duran would lose because of his height disadvantage.

I personally think Hearns would get the best of him based on styles, Robinson was open to Hearns huge right hand, and don't think he would like fighting a guy taller than him.

Robinson vs Leonard could go either way, boxing match.

Trinidad might give him some problems because of his power and pressure.

Leakbeak
05-21-2009, 06:27 AM
SRR is way overrated.
alishuffle, Chex31, Demise, PotentialThe four members who voted for that option should just kill themselves now and save some time

Leakbeak
05-21-2009, 06:29 AM
Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran both showed great diversity against better opposition then SRR. Robinson just fought A hell of a lot more. It depends on what floats your boat.



You have to take into consideration the fact that fighting so often is definitely harder than fighting 2-3 times a year. SRR sometimes had 2-3 fights in a month

them_apples
05-21-2009, 06:37 AM
You have to take into consideration the fact that fighting so often is definitely harder than fighting 2-3 times a year. SRR sometimes had 2-3 fights in a month

yea, thats when it get's difficult.

TheGreatA
05-21-2009, 08:43 AM
I don't buy it I say his era was weak and he's way overrated.

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glidesmack
05-21-2009, 08:43 AM
way overrated.

TheGreatA
05-21-2009, 08:56 AM
way overrated.

Directing you to a more suitable place for this type of discussion:

here (http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=3)

I'm afraid that simply stating a certain fighter is "overrated" won't do in this section.

glidesmack
05-21-2009, 09:50 AM
alright, *******. His era was weak, period. he wouldn't have survived in the 20's, pfp dempsey 1919 kills him.

TheGreatA
05-21-2009, 10:17 AM
way overrated.

alright, *******. His era was weak, period. he wouldn't have survived in the 20's, pfp dempsey 1919 kills him.

Because Dempsey fought such great opposition?

them_apples
05-21-2009, 04:25 PM
alright, *******. His era was weak, period. he wouldn't have survived in the 20's, pfp dempsey 1919 kills him.

p4p Dempsey has nothing on SRR. Complete different skill level.

Southpaw16BF
05-21-2009, 05:38 PM
alright, *******. His era was weak, period. he wouldn't have survived in the 20's, pfp dempsey 1919 kills him.

His Era was weak?
Wins over
Sammy Angottx3
Fritzie Zivicx2
Jake LaMottax5
Henry Armstrong
Kid Gavilanx2
Rocky Graziano
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olsonx2
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio

There's 10 Hall Of Famers Robinson defeated, as well as beating good fighters and contenders in Denny Moyer, Ralph Zannelli, Maxie Berger, Marty Servo, Maxie Shapiro, Pete Lello, Tommy Bell, Joe Curcio, Georgie Abrams and more.

Robinson's resume of wins could be the best ever. And to say his era was a weak one is bogus. He was involved in one of the stronges era's ever, as I've just proved, he virtually avoided no one.

Robinson would of excelled in any era, Dempsey is no wear near as good as a fighter as Ray, his resume dosen't match up to Robinsons, nor does his legacy. Demspey could of fought many more fighters in his era, but chose not to, mainly Willis and Greb.

In his own right Dempsey is a outstanding fighter, but he isn't on the level of Ray Robinson.

glidesmack
05-21-2009, 06:26 PM
total bs. All those guys had hall of fame careers...in a weak ****ing era. People ask why dempsey had no great rivarlies? At his peak he was ten times the fighter the second best guy was...in the toughest era of all time.

TheGreatA
05-21-2009, 06:37 PM
total bs. All those guys had hall of fame careers...in a weak ****ing era. People ask why dempsey had no great rivarlies? At his peak he was ten times the fighter the second best guy was...in the toughest era of all time.

Dempsey never fought the second best in the division which was Harry Wills who for the most part beat the men that Dempsey beat and also many more (Sam Langford, Sam McVea, Joe Jeannette, Kid Norfolk, Jeff Clark, etc.).

And the heavyweight division of the 1920's was far from being the toughest era of all time.

There's a reason why Jess Willard was the heavyweight champion of the world and there's a reason why middleweights such as Harry Greb could beat most of the heavyweights of the day and it's not because the era was strong, it's actually because the era was rather weak.

Top 10 rankings of 1924:

1. Jack Dempsey, Champion
2. Harry Wills
3. Tommy Gibbons
4. Charley Weinert
5. Quintin Romero Rojas
6. Jack Renault
7. Luis Angel Firpo
8. George Godfrey
9. Jim Maloney
10. Erminio Spalla

Aside from Jack Dempsey, the champion who was on a 3 year vacation from boxing, the aging Harry Wills, who was never given a deserved shot, as well as 33 year old light heavyweight Tommy Gibbons, there are no notable names in there except maybe George Godfrey, who would later go onto become a solid contender and Luis Firpo whose best days were behind him.

How many of these men did Jack Dempsey the champion fight? Only two, Tommy Gibbons and Luis Firpo.

them_apples
05-21-2009, 08:07 PM
Dempsey never fought the second best in the division which was Harry Wills who for the most part beat the men that Dempsey beat and also many more (Sam Langford, Sam McVea, Joe Jeannette, Kid Norfolk, Jeff Clark, etc.).

And the heavyweight division of the 1920's was far from being the toughest era of all time.

There's a reason why Jess Willard was the heavyweight champion of the world and there's a reason why middleweights such as Harry Greb could beat most of the heavyweights of the day and it's not because the era was strong, it's actually because the era was rather weak.

Top 10 rankings of 1924:

1. Jack Dempsey, Champion
2. Harry Wills
3. Tommy Gibbons
4. Charley Weinert
5. Quintin Romero Rojas
6. Jack Renault
7. Luis Angel Firpo
8. George Godfrey
9. Jim Maloney
10. Erminio Spalla

Aside from Jack Dempsey, the champion who was on a 3 year vacation from boxing, the aging Harry Wills, who was never given a deserved shot, as well as 33 year old light heavyweight Tommy Gibbons, there are no notable names in there except maybe George Godfrey, who would later go onto become a solid contender and Luis Firpo whose best days were behind him.

How many of these men did Jack Dempsey the champion fight? Only two, Tommy Gibbons and Luis Firpo.

I give Dempsey a lot of heat, he was exciting but he fought in a really bad era. He lost to guys with 30+ losses and like you said, Willard was the top dog, aka Valuev version 1.

He always makes ATG lists and I don't know why any right minded "historian" could put him there.

Southpaw16BF
05-21-2009, 08:26 PM
I give Dempsey a lot of heat, he was exciting but he fought in a really bad era. He lost to guys with 30+ losses and like you said, Willard was the top dog, aka Valuev version 1.

He always makes ATG lists and I don't know why any right minded "historian" could put him there.

Hmmmm.......Demspey is a ATG, and was one of the most exciting fighters and biggest draws ever. But there is no hiding the fact that some boxing people seem overrate rate him to a extent, mainly Bert Sugar who ranks him as the 9th best fighter of all time, which is in my view far to high.

Slimey Limey
05-21-2009, 09:17 PM
His Era was weak?
Wins over
Sammy Angottx3
Fritzie Zivicx2
Jake LaMottax5
Henry Armstrong
Kid Gavilanx2
Rocky Graziano
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olsonx2
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio

There's 10 Hall Of Famers Robinson defeated, as well as beating good fighters and contenders in Denny Moyer, Ralph Zannelli, Maxie Berger, Marty Servo, Maxie Shapiro, Pete Lello, Tommy Bell, Joe Curcio, Georgie Abrams and more.

Robinson's resume of wins could be the best ever. And to say his era was a weak one is bogus. He was involved in one of the stronges era's ever, as I've just proved, he virtually avoided no one.

Robinson would of excelled in any era, Dempsey is no wear near as good as a fighter as Ray, his resume dosen't match up to Robinsons, nor does his legacy. Demspey could of fought many more fighters in his era, but chose not to, mainly Willis and Greb.

In his own right Dempsey is a outstanding fighter, but he isn't on the level of Ray Robinson.


That doesn't compare to Muhammad Ali's record.

George Foreman
Joe Frazier 2x
Sonny Liston 2x
Ken Norton 2x
Henry Cooper 2x
Floyd Patterson 2x
Ron Lyle
Jimmy Young
Earnie Shavers
George Chuvalo
Cleveland Williams
Ernie Terrel
Zora Folley
Jerry Quarry
Oscar Bonavena
Jimmy Ellis
Mac Foster
Bob Foster
Joe Bugner
Chuck Wepner
Leon Spinks

Most impressive and consistent record ever

first 3 time HW champ ever

one of the youngest HW champs ever

came back from a 3 year lay off in his prime to accomplish all of this

would beat any boxer in history atleast once


SRR GOAT my ass. Plus Ali would murder him in an actual boxing match so who's the greatest?

GJC
05-21-2009, 09:32 PM
That doesn't compare to Muhammad Ali's record.

George Foreman
Joe Frazier 2x
Sonny Liston 2x
Ken Norton 2x
Henry Cooper 2x
Floyd Patterson 2x
Ron Lyle
Jimmy Young
Earnie Shavers
George Chuvalo
Cleveland Williams
Ernie Terrel
Zora Folley
Jerry Quarry
Oscar Bonavena
Jimmy Ellis
Mac Foster
Bob Foster
Joe Bugner
Chuck Wepner
Leon Spinks

Most impressive and consistent record ever

first 3 time HW champ ever

one of the youngest HW champs ever

came back from a 3 year lay off in his prime to accomplish all of this

would beat any boxer in history atleast once


SRR GOAT my ass. Plus Ali would murder him in an actual boxing match so who's the greatest?
Fair few names on your list that don't bear comparison with the previous SRR list IMO

Slimey Limey
05-21-2009, 09:41 PM
Fair few names on your list that don't bear comparison with the previous SRR list IMO

PFFT, yeah right. What wins can even compare to Ali's wins over George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston, Ken Norton, Ron Lyle?

SRR gets the same idiotic biased support like Joe Louis.

Meanwhile Ali has idiotic hateful Docu's made about him and people assume the old "Ali was only the greatest because he said so himself" completely disregarding the mans accomplishments which no Boxer in history can stand up to.

Slimey Limey
05-21-2009, 09:42 PM
Oh and SRR has like 4 times the amount of fights Ali had as well as 4 times the amount of LOSSES Ali had.

Southpaw16BF
05-21-2009, 09:45 PM
That doesn't compare to Muhammad Ali's record.

George Foreman
Joe Frazier 2x
Sonny Liston 2x
Ken Norton 2x
Henry Cooper 2x
Floyd Patterson 2x
Ron Lyle
Jimmy Young
Earnie Shavers
George Chuvalo
Cleveland Williams
Ernie Terrel
Zora Folley
Jerry Quarry
Oscar Bonavena
Jimmy Ellis
Mac Foster
Bob Foster
Joe Bugner
Chuck Wepner
Leon Spinks

Most impressive and consistent record ever

first 3 time HW champ ever

one of the youngest HW champs ever

came back from a 3 year lay off in his prime to accomplish all of this

would beat any boxer in history atleast once


SRR GOAT my ass. Plus Ali would murder him in an actual boxing match so who's the greatest?

Did you read my post or can you read, as I used the word ''Could'' I never said it was fact Robinson had the best resume of wins. But there is no douting he has a case, and unlike you I only named Hall Of Famers on Robinson's list of his best wins, and only put the contenders, decent/good fighters he beat below them.

Take off Cooper, Lyle, Young, Chuvalo, Williams, Bugner, Wepner, Spinks, Bonavena, Ellis, Folley, and Quarry who are all not Hall Of Famers at this point. What you've try to do is, put lots of names on the list to make it look bigger and more impressive.

If were just comparing wins over all between Robinson and Ali, there isn't alot in it and it is a very debatable subject. And then you give me a list of what Ali has done, which I don't why, but I can do that with Robinson just as easy.

.At one point in his career, out of a 131 fights only 1 loss to Hall Of Famer Jake Lamotta, who had a 16 pound weight advantage on Ray, and a defeat in which he avenged 5 times. But yet you say Ali had the Most impressive and consistent record ever? You need to do your research....

.Only ever 5 times Middlweight Champion.

.Considered best Welterweight ever and by most boxing people best ever Middleweight.

.In many people's view the perfect fighter, could do it all. As the old saying goes ''If you could sit down and draw up plans to make a perfect fighter, the one you would make would probaly be damned close to Robinson''

.Said By Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali as the greatest Pound for Pound fighter ever lived.

Defeated 10 Hall of Famers and most more than once
Sammy Angottx3
Fritzie Zivicx2
Jake LaMottax5
Henry Armstrong
Kid Gavilanx2
Rocky Graziano
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olsonx2
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio

You will probaly come back with more bogus answers, as you even think Marcaino slipped against Moore and Walcott, which is complete bogus.

And one more thing you do realize Muhammad Ali said Robinson was the best ever Pound 4 Pound fighter. Ali admitted this himself.

And it just makes you look so stupid when you say Ali would murder the natrual 147 to 160 Robinson. Like that is ment to change people's views in this debate, you make me laugh...........:rofl:

them_apples
05-21-2009, 10:01 PM
That doesn't compare to Muhammad Ali's record.

George Foreman
Joe Frazier 2x
Sonny Liston 2x
Ken Norton 2x
Henry Cooper 2x
Floyd Patterson 2x
Ron Lyle
Jimmy Young
Earnie Shavers
George Chuvalo
Cleveland Williams
Ernie Terrel
Zora Folley
Jerry Quarry
Oscar Bonavena
Jimmy Ellis
Mac Foster
Bob Foster
Joe Bugner
Chuck Wepner
Leon Spinks

Most impressive and consistent record ever

first 3 time HW champ ever

one of the youngest HW champs ever

came back from a 3 year lay off in his prime to accomplish all of this

would beat any boxer in history atleast once


SRR GOAT my ass. Plus Ali would murder him in an actual boxing match so who's the greatest?

amazing record, but consistent? I don't think so. also, not all of those names are great, some of them were pretty bad and gave Ali trouble. In fact, the best guys on that list, bar George Foreman beat him, or got controversial decisions against Ali.

Still, non the less, the best HW resume out there.

them_apples
05-21-2009, 10:04 PM
Did you read my post or can you read, as I used the word ''Could'' I never said it was fact Robinson had the best resume of wins. But there is no douting he has a case, and unlike you I only named Hall Of Famers on Robinson's list of his best wins, and only put the contenders, decent/good fighters he beat below them.

Take off Cooper, Lyle, Young, Chuvalo, Williams, Bugner, Wepner, Spinks, Bonavena, Ellis, Folley, and Quarry who are all not Hall Of Famers at this point. What you've try to do is, put lots of names on the list to make it look bigger and more impressive.

If were just comparing wins over all between Robinson and Ali, there isn't alot in it and it is a very debatable subject. And then you give me a list of what Ali has done, which I don't why, but I can do that with Robinson just as easy.

.At one point in his career, out of a 131 fights only 1 loss to Hall Of Famer Jake Lamotta, who had a 16 pound weight advantage on Ray, and a defeat in which he avenged 5 times. But yet you say Ali had the Most impressive and consistent record ever? You need to do your research....

.Only ever 5 times Middlweight Champion.

.Considered best Welterweight ever and by most boxing people best ever Middleweight.

.In many people's view the perfect fighter, could do it all. As the old saying goes ''If you could sit down and draw up plans to make a perfect fighter, the one you would make would probaly be damned close to Robinson''

.Said By Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali as the greatest Pound for Pound fighter ever lived.

Defeated 10 Hall of Famers and most more than once
Sammy Angottx3
Fritzie Zivicx2
Jake LaMottax5
Henry Armstrong
Kid Gavilanx2
Rocky Graziano
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olsonx2
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio

You will probaly come back with more bogus answers, as you even think Marcaino slipped against Moore and Walcott, which is complete bogus.

And one more thing you do realize Muhammad Ali said Robinson was the best ever Pound 4 Pound fighter. Ali admitted this himself.

And it just makes you look so stupid when you say Ali would murder the natrual 147 to 160 Robinson. Like that is ment to change people's views in this debate, you make me laugh...........:rofl:

Doesn't really matter what other fighters say to each other, it means nothing.
Liston said stuff about rocky being unbeatable, but would you pick Rocky over Liston?

Robinson has a strong case for being one of the best (or best) WW in history, but at middleweight i don't think so. Hagler would stop him, Hopkins would UD or in his prime possibly a stoppage, Monzon? Debatable. I think Robinson is getting too highly rated here at middleweight. At WW, he's def within the top 3.

Slimey Limey
05-21-2009, 10:06 PM
Did you read my post or can you read, as I used the word ''Could'' I never said it was fact Robinson had the best resume of wins. But there is no douting he has a case, and unlike you I only named Hall Of Famers on Robinson's list of his best wins, and only put the contenders, decent/good fighters he beat below them.

Take off Cooper, Lyle, Young, Chuvalo, Williams, Bugner, Wepner, Spinks, Bonavena, Ellis, Folley, and Quarry who are all not Hall Of Famers at this point. What you've try to do is, put lots of names on the list to make it look bigger and more impressive.

If were just comparing wins over all between Robinson and Ali, there isn't alot in it and it is a very debatable subject. And then you give me a list of what Ali has done, which I don't why, but I can do that with Robinson just as easy.

.At one point in his career, out of a 131 fights only 1 loss to Hall Of Famer Jake Lamotta, who had a 16 pound weight advantage on Ray, and a defeat in which he avenged 5 times. But yet you say Ali had the Most impressive and consistent record ever? You need to do your research....

.Only ever 5 times Middlweight Champion.

.Considered best Welterweight ever and by most boxing people best ever Middleweight.

.In many people's view the perfect fighter, could do it all. As the old saying goes ''If you could sit down and draw up plans to make a perfect fighter, the one you would make would probaly be damned close to Robinson''

.Said By Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali as the greatest Pound for Pound fighter ever lived.

Defeated 10 Hall of Famers and most more than once
Sammy Angottx3
Fritzie Zivicx2
Jake LaMottax5
Henry Armstrong
Kid Gavilanx2
Rocky Graziano
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olsonx2
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio

You will probaly come back with more bogus answers, as you even think Marcaino slipped against Moore and Walcott, which is complete bogus.

And one more thing you do realize Muhammad Ali said Robinson was the best ever Pound 4 Pound fighter. Ali admitted this himself.

And it just makes you look so stupid when you say Ali would murder the natrual 147 to 160 Robinson. Like that is ment to change people's views in this debate, you make me laugh...........:rofl:


Ohh, the Manmachine wannabe is catching feelings.

First of all, you need to get off your obsession with "hall of fame fighters". There are many in there that don't belong in the same category as others in there. And most importantly, the HOF lacks and extreme amount of all time greats. So you need to spend less time posting youtube clips imitating Manmachine, and start realising there is a diffirence between a HOFer and an ALL TIME GREAT.

So no I will not remove any of those names off Ali's impressive Ws list. They were good wins PERIOD. Or do you only rate a fighter by how many wins he has over HOFers? You are a joke that's only trying to hype up the overrated SRR.

And I gave you a list of what Ali has done because this thread is debating who's the greatest. And you tell me I can't read?

.At one point in his career, out of a 131 fights only 1 loss to Hall Of Famer Jake Lamotta, who had a 16 pound weight advantage on Ray, and a defeat in which he avenged 5 times. But yet you say Ali had the Most impressive and consistent record ever? You need to do your research....

And how in the blue hell does this mean Ali did not have the most impressive consistent record ever? Ali fought in the BEST era, a much better era than SRR's and he fought ALL of them. He only lost against an ALL TIME GREAT(get this, ATG not HOFer kiddo) Joe frazier after 3 YEARS of lay off in his prime years.

The rest of what you posted are merely opinions, not facts.

And yes Ali would murder SRR in a boxing match which means Ali could actually defeat any boxer in history, which you can't say about SRR.


Once again Ali's great wins:

George Foreman
Joe Frazier 2x
Sonny Liston 2x
Ken Norton 2x
Henry Cooper 2x
Floyd Patterson 2x
Ron Lyle
Jimmy Young
Earnie Shavers
George Chuvalo
Cleveland Williams
Ernie Terrel
Zora Folley
Jerry Quarry
Oscar Bonavena
Jimmy Ellis
Mac Foster
Buster Mathis
Earnie Terrell
Bob Foster
Joe Bugner
Chuck Wepner
Leon Spinks

This is almost 30 great wins in a career consisting of over 60 fights. NO comparison. Ali is not only the greatest fighter but also one of the greatest athletes in general, some even consider him THE greatest sportsman ever.

them_apples
05-21-2009, 10:08 PM
Hmmmm.......Demspey is a ATG, and was one of the most exciting fighters and biggest draws ever. But there is no hiding the fact that some boxing people seem overrate rate him to a extent, mainly Bert Sugar who ranks him as the 9th best fighter of all time, which is in my view far to high.

How high on the ATG list? being a big draw shouldn't make you go up in ranking, otherwise Oscar is the top G.

I would put him at perhaps number 15.

Ziggy Stardust
05-21-2009, 10:18 PM
amazing record, but consistent? I don't think so. also, not all of those names are great, some of them were pretty bad and gave Ali trouble. In fact, the best guys on that list, bar George Foreman beat him, or got controversial decisions against Ali.

Still, non the less, the best HW resume out there.

In fairness, though, you can make the same case for the record of practically any ATG one cares to name. Name the fighter and I can probably slice and dice his resume and make it look like ****e.

Poet

them_apples
05-21-2009, 10:19 PM
In fairness, though, you can make the same case for the record of practically any ATG one cares to name. Name the fighter and I can probably slice and dice his resume and make it look like ****e.

Poet

Yea true, I agree. which is why I still consider Ali's resume the best at HW. It's especially true for HW's. They all have huge blotches of ugly mixed in with the good.

Ziggy Stardust
05-21-2009, 10:23 PM
I give Dempsey a lot of heat, he was exciting but he fought in a really bad era. He lost to guys with 30+ losses and like you said, Willard was the top dog, aka Valuev version 1.

He always makes ATG lists and I don't know why any right minded "historian" could put him there.

I consider Dempsey an ATG.....but NOT p4p. In fact I tend to be leary of putting Heavyweights on p4p lists. Dempsey was a great fighter who fought with such skill and ferocity that 65 years later Mike Tyson openly patterned himself after him. Terrific resume? No, he fought in a weak era in a division known more for famine than for feast.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
05-21-2009, 10:25 PM
Yea true, I agree. which is why I still consider Ali's resume the best at HW. It's especially true for HW's. They all have huge blotches of ugly mixed in with the good.

Of course. The truth is it's pretty rare to have two ATG Heavyweights in their primes fighting at the same time: That makes it hard to build a top-notch resume and shows just how remarkable Ali's era really was.

Poet

Southpaw16BF
05-21-2009, 10:29 PM
Ohh, the Manmachine wannabe is catching feelings.

First of all, you need to get off your obsession with "hall of fame fighters". There are many in there that don't belong in the same category as others in there. And most importantly, the HOF lacks and extreme amount of all time greats. So you need to spend less time posting youtube clips imitating Manmachine, and start realising there is a diffirence between a HOFer and an ALL TIME GREAT.

So no I will not remove any of those names off Ali's impressive Ws list. They were good wins PERIOD. Or do you only rate a fighter by how many wins he has over HOFers? You are a joke that's only trying to hype up the overrated SRR.

And I gave you a list of what Ali has done because this thread is debating who's the greatest. And you tell me I can't read?



And how in the blue hell does this mean Ali did not have the most impressive consistent record ever? Ali fought in the BEST era, a much better era than SRR's and he fought ALL of them. He only lost against an ALL TIME GREAT(get this, ATG not HOFer kiddo) Joe frazier after 3 YEARS of lay off in his prime years.

The rest of what you posted are merely opinions, not facts.

And yes Ali would murder SRR in a boxing match which means Ali could actually defeat any boxer in history, which you can't say about SRR.


Once again Ali's great wins:

George Foreman
Joe Frazier 2x
Sonny Liston 2x
Ken Norton 2x
Henry Cooper 2x
Floyd Patterson 2x
Ron Lyle
Jimmy Young
Earnie Shavers
George Chuvalo
Cleveland Williams
Ernie Terrel
Zora Folley
Jerry Quarry
Oscar Bonavena
Jimmy Ellis
Mac Foster
Buster Mathis
Earnie Terrell
Bob Foster
Joe Bugner
Chuck Wepner
Leon Spinks

This is almost 30 great wins in a career consisting of over 60 fights. NO comparison. Ali is not only the greatest fighter but also one of the greatest athletes in general, some even consider him THE greatest sportsman ever.

Are you soft, seriously? We all know Ali could of beat Robinson, because of the huge weight adavantage, but dimbo, this is why we judge on who is the best Pound for Pound fighter, we don't judge of who would beat who in fantasy fights. Your lack of knowlodge is so funny.

And it also funny how you call Chuck Wepner, Leon Spinks, Joe Bugner, Cleveland Williams, George Chuvalo-Great Wins. And yet you say to me I'am over hyping Ray Robinson........You must be joking

How is Ali's era much better than Robinson, oh wait is the difference because in Ali's era it had great fighters like George Chuvalo and Joe Bunger in it like you said.

It is to easy to make you look stupid on here, as you are really just a biased boxing fan, who hardly knows anything about the sport. The things you say are just so bogus and stupid it;s untrue, here's a few in the last hour.

Plus Ali would murder him in an actual boxing match so who's the greatest?

SRR gets the same idiotic biased support like Joe Louis

Oh and SRR has like 4 times the amount of fights Ali had as well as 4 times the amount of LOSSES Ali had

Each and every one of these post are so damn stupid and there that stupid they make me laugh.

Carry on to make a complete idiot of yourself.....

Nothing but a troll

Ziggy Stardust
05-21-2009, 10:34 PM
PFFT, yeah right. What wins can even compare to Ali's wins over George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Sonny Liston, Ken Norton, Ron Lyle?

SRR gets the same idiotic biased support like Joe Louis.

Meanwhile Ali has idiotic hateful Docu's made about him and people assume the old "Ali was only the greatest because he said so himself" completely disregarding the mans accomplishments which no Boxer in history can stand up to.

You might want to take a look at your own bias: You're LRR in reverse. While LRR tries to discredit Ali and Holmes (especially Ali) for reasons only he himself knows, you're doing the EXACT same thing first with Joe Louis and now with Ray Robinson. Bias works both ways. You have accused me of having a bias towards Louis for no other reason than you saw me make a favorable post about him.....so I guess everyone who doesn't think Louis is trash is biased huh? I bet you've never bothered to look at any of the Heavyweight ATG lists I've posted. Guess who I have consistantly rated at #1. Why that would be Muhammed Ali.

You can try to smear Manchine and Southpaw until you're blue in the face: You WILL lose that war. Badly.

Poet

Southpaw16BF
05-21-2009, 10:35 PM
Doesn't really matter what other fighters say to each other, it means nothing.
Liston said stuff about rocky being unbeatable, but would you pick Rocky over Liston?

Robinson has a strong case for being one of the best (or best) WW in history, but at middleweight i don't think so. Hagler would stop him, Hopkins would UD or in his prime possibly a stoppage, Monzon? Debatable. I think Robinson is getting too highly rated here at middleweight. At WW, he's def within the top 3.

Once again you are wrong, did I say he was the best Middlweight of all time, did I? No I say most of the boxing world consider it him, I never said it was him. For example in the 1994 issue of Ring Magazine they rated him the greatest Middlweight ever.

And your making out like its fact that Hagler would stop him, at his prime at 160, Ray was brillant and I feel could of beat Hagler, and I highly dout Hagler could stop him.

Slimey Limey
05-21-2009, 10:35 PM
You are close to tears now kid. Haha, you're giving up now as barely any of what you just wrote has anything to do with the argument, just complaints about me as a poster. So you're the one that's trolling now mate.

If you feel like giving it another shot I made a poll in NSB section:cop:

Obama
05-21-2009, 10:35 PM
Once again Ali's great wins:

George Foreman
Joe Frazier 2x
Sonny Liston 2x
Ken Norton 2x
Henry Cooper 2x
Floyd Patterson 2x
Ron Lyle
Jimmy Young
Earnie Shavers
George Chuvalo
Cleveland Williams
Ernie Terrel
Zora Folley
Jerry Quarry
Oscar Bonavena
Jimmy Ellis
Mac Foster
Buster Mathis
Earnie Terrell
Bob Foster
Joe Bugner
Chuck Wepner
Leon Spinks


You listed everyone credible he fought basically...You'd get more than that amount of names if you did it for SRR, other guys just listed his HOF wins. I don't have a list like this done for SRR, but I do have it for some other Heavyweights that is quite comparable:

Joe Louis
Notable Wins:
Charley Massera
Lee Ramage (x2)
Patsy Perroni
Don ***8220;Red***8221; Barry
Natie Brown
Roy Lazer
Primo Carnera
King Levinsky
Max Baer
Paulino Uzcudun
Charley Retzlaff
Jack Sharkey <Over the hill>
Al Ettore
Bob Pastor (x2)
Jim Braddock
Tommy Farr
Nathan Mann
Max Schmeling
John Henry Louis <Past his prime>
***8220;Two Ton***8221; Toney Galento
Arturo Godoy (x2)
Johnny Paycheck
Red Burman
Gus Dorazio
Abe Simon (x2)
Tony Musto
Buddy Baer (x2)
Billy Conn (x2) <Both fighters past their prime in 2nd bout>
Lou Nova
Tami Mauriello
Jersey Joe Walcott (x2)
Lee Savold <Both fighters over the hill>
Jimmy Bivins <Both fighters over the hill>

Jack Johnson
Notable Wins:
Frank Childs (x2)
George Gardner
Denver Ed Martin (x2)
Sam McVea (x3) <Undefeated>
Sandy Ferguson (x3)
Black Bill (x4)
Jim Jeffords (x2)
Jack Munroe
Morris Harris
Joe Jeannette (x3)
Sam Langford
Bob Fitzsimmons <Over the hill>
Tommy Burns
Tony Ross
Al Kaufman
James J. Jeffries <Undefeated> <Over the hill>
Frank Moran
Tom Cowler
Jack Thompson

Harry Wills
Notable Wins:
Sam Langford (x13)
Joe Jeannette (x2)
Willie Meehan
Sailor Grande
John Lester Johnson (x3)
Sam McVea (x2)
Jeff Clark (x8)
Bill Tate (x4)
Jack Thompson (x6)
Fred Fulton
Gunboat Smith
Kid Norfolk
Tut Jackson
Bartley Madden
Luis Angel Firpo
Charley Weinert
Floyd Johnson

Sam Langford
Notable Wins:
Joe Jeannette (x8)
Jim Barry (x7)
Sandy Ferguson
John Wille (x2)
Tony Ross (x2)
Morris Harris (x2)
Al Kubiak (x2)
John Klon***e Haines
Mike Schreck <Past his prime>
Stanley Ketchel
Battling Jim Johnson (x9)
Jeff Clark (x5)
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Sam McVea (x6)
Porky Dan Flynn (x2)
John Lester Johnson
Tom McMahon
Harry Wills (x2)
Gunboat Smith
Jack Thompson (x4)
Bill Tate (x4)
Andre Anderson
Kid Norfolk
Tiny Jim Herman
Frank Farmer
George Godfrey (x2)
Lee Anderson (x2)
Bearcat Wright (x3)
Tut Jackson (x2)
Tiger Flowers

Slimey Limey
05-21-2009, 10:42 PM
You listed everyone credible he fought basically...You'd get more than that amount of names if you did it for SRR, other guys just listed his HOF wins. I don't have a list like this done for SRR, but I do have it for some other Heavyweights that is quite comparable:

Joe Louis
Notable Wins:
Charley Massera
Lee Ramage (x2)
Patsy Perroni
Don “Red” Barry
Natie Brown
Roy Lazer
Primo Carnera
King Levinsky
Max Baer
Paulino Uzcudun
Charley Retzlaff
Jack Sharkey <Over the hill>
Al Ettore
Bob Pastor (x2)
Jim Braddock
Tommy Farr
Nathan Mann
Max Schmeling
John Henry Louis <Past his prime>
“Two Ton” Toney Galento
Arturo Godoy (x2)
Johnny Paycheck
Red Burman
Gus Dorazio
Abe Simon (x2)
Tony Musto
Buddy Baer (x2)
Billy Conn (x2) <Both fighters past their prime in 2nd bout>
Lou Nova
Tami Mauriello
Jersey Joe Walcott (x2)
Lee Savold <Both fighters over the hill>
Jimmy Bivins <Both fighters over the hill>

Jack Johnson
Notable Wins:
Frank Childs (x2)
George Gardner
Denver Ed Martin (x2)
Sam McVea (x3) <Undefeated>
Sandy Ferguson (x3)
Black Bill (x4)
Jim Jeffords (x2)
Jack Munroe
Morris Harris
Joe Jeannette (x3)
Sam Langford
Bob Fitzsimmons <Over the hill>
Tommy Burns
Tony Ross
Al Kaufman
James J. Jeffries <Undefeated> <Over the hill>
Frank Moran
Tom Cowler
Jack Thompson

Harry Wills
Notable Wins:
Sam Langford (x13)
Joe Jeannette (x2)
Willie Meehan
Sailor Grande
John Lester Johnson (x3)
Sam McVea (x2)
Jeff Clark (x8)
Bill Tate (x4)
Jack Thompson (x6)
Fred Fulton
Gunboat Smith
Kid Norfolk
Tut Jackson
Bartley Madden
Luis Angel Firpo
Charley Weinert
Floyd Johnson

Sam Langford
Notable Wins:
Joe Jeannette (x8)
Jim Barry (x7)
Sandy Ferguson
John Wille (x2)
Tony Ross (x2)
Morris Harris (x2)
Al Kubiak (x2)
John Klon***e Haines
Mike Schreck <Past his prime>
Stanley Ketchel
Battling Jim Johnson (x9)
Jeff Clark (x5)
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Sam McVea (x6)
Porky Dan Flynn (x2)
John Lester Johnson
Tom McMahon
Harry Wills (x2)
Gunboat Smith
Jack Thompson (x4)
Bill Tate (x4)
Andre Anderson
Kid Norfolk
Tiny Jim Herman
Frank Farmer
George Godfrey (x2)
Lee Anderson (x2)
Bearcat Wright (x3)
Tut Jackson (x2)
Tiger Flowers

Actually I listed the best wins Ali had based on the quality of opposition.

Slimey Limey
05-21-2009, 10:47 PM
You might want to take a look at your own bias: You're LRR in reverse. While LRR tries to discredit Ali and Holmes (especially Ali) for reasons only he himself knows, you're doing the EXACT same thing first with Joe Louis and now with Ray Robinson. Bias works both ways. You have accused me of having a bias towards Louis for no other reason than you saw me make a favorable post about him.....so I guess everyone who doesn't think Louis is trash is biased huh? I bet you've never bothered to look at any of the Heavyweight ATG lists I've posted. Guess who I have consistantly rated at #1. Why that would be Muhammed Ali.

You can try to smear Manchine and Southpaw until you're blue in the face: You WILL lose that war. Badly.

Poet

Actually I don't discredit Joe Louis or Ray Robinson. I just point out how they are very overrated because they are frequently reffered to as greatest Heavyweight ever and Greatest fighter ever even though Ali holds the right to BOTH of those titles.

And I don't consider you having a bias for Louis because you made a favorable post about him. It was more on the lines of you making nothing but favorable posts about him. You see no flaws in him, even though he is.

And btw mate, I already won those wars.

Southpaw16BF
05-21-2009, 10:52 PM
Actually I don't discredit Joe Louis or Ray Robinson. I just point out how they are very overrated because they are frequently reffered to as greatest Heavyweight ever and Greatest fighter ever even though Ali holds the right to BOTH of those titles.

And I don't consider you having a bias for Louis because you made a favorable post about him. It was more on the lines of you making nothing but favorable posts about him. You see no flaws in him, even though he is.

And btw mate, I already won those wars.

This is from a poster who credits Ali's wins over Joe Bugner, Chuck Wepner, George Chuvalo, and Leon Spinks as great. That is overrating a fighter, you troll.

Obama
05-21-2009, 10:58 PM
This is from a poster who credits Ali's wins over Joe Bugner, Chuck Wepner, George Chuvalo, and Leon Spinks as great. That is overrating a fighter, you troll.

Joe Bugner is significantly better than the rest of them at least. In fact he's better than some other guys he named too:

Doug Jones
Henry Cooper
Brian London
Karl Mildenberger
Ernie Terrell
Ringo Bonavena
Buster Mathis
Mac Foster

Southpaw16BF
05-21-2009, 11:01 PM
Joe Bugner is significantly better than the rest of them at least. In fact he's better than some other guys he named too:

Doug Jones
Henry Cooper
Brian London
Karl Mildenberger
Ernie Terrell
Ringo Bonavena
Buster Mathis

My point is he is calling Bunger, Cooper and Chuvalo great wins for Ali. And yet he says i'am overhyping Ray Robinson????

Obama
05-21-2009, 11:03 PM
Actually I listed the best wins Ali had based on the quality of opposition.

This isn't saying anything. I did the same for Louis, Johnson, Wills, and Langford. Ali isn't ahead of any of them resume wise by a good distance. In fact I consider Louis' constant quality opponents more impressive.

Obama
05-21-2009, 11:04 PM
My point is he is calling Bunger, Cooper and Chuvalo great wins for Ali. And yet he says i'am overhyping Ray Robinson????

Absolutely, he's just hugging Ali's nuts. ;)

Ziggy Stardust
05-21-2009, 11:06 PM
Actually I don't discredit Joe Louis or Ray Robinson. I just point out how they are very overrated because they are frequently reffered to as greatest Heavyweight ever and Greatest fighter ever even though Ali holds the right to BOTH of those titles.

And I don't consider you having a bias for Louis because you made a favorable post about him. It was more on the lines of you making nothing but favorable posts about him. You see no flaws in him, even though he is.

And btw mate, I already won those wars.

You can run up a white flag right now because you've already lost but are too stupid to realize it: They're toying with you the way I'd toy with an opponent ranked 300 points below me in an open tournament.

Poet

Slimey Limey
05-21-2009, 11:06 PM
Joe Bugner is significantly better than the rest of them at least. In fact he's better than some other guys he named too:

Doug Jones
Henry Cooper
Brian London
Karl Mildenberger
Ernie Terrell
Ringo Bonavena
Buster Mathis
Mac Foster

In fact he's better than most of the guys you named on Louis' resume too.

This isn't saying anything. I did the same for Louis, Johnson, Wills, and Langford. Ali isn't ahead of any of them resume wise by a good distance. In fact I consider Louis' constant quality opponents more impressive.


Actually it is saying a lot. Yes you did the same for Louis and the rest, and if you compare the wins you will see Ali's quality of opposition is much higher and more consistent, and the fact that he has all time great wins against the likes of Foreman, Frazier and Liston is enough to showcase who is greater.

Slimey Limey
05-21-2009, 11:09 PM
You can run up a white flag right now because you've already lost but are too stupid to realize it: They're toying with you the way I'd toy with an opponent ranked 300 points below me in an open tournament.

Poet

As usual, Poet just standing by the sidelines nitpicking which side he's on and making his little remarks, but not actually engaging in the debate because he knows he'd lose.

Ziggy Stardust
05-21-2009, 11:14 PM
As usual, Poet just standing by the sidelines nitpicking which side he's on and making his little remarks, but not actually engaging in the debate because he knows he'd lose.

I've slapped you around like a red-headed step-child before and I'll have no problem doing it again: You're digging yourself deeper. I really don't know what else you can say that could possibly make you look more like an ass than you already have.....but I'm sure you'll come up with something.

Poet

Obama
05-21-2009, 11:25 PM
In fact he's better than most of the guys you named on Louis' resume too.




Actually it is saying a lot. Yes you did the same for Louis and the rest, and if you compare the wins you will see Ali's quality of opposition is much higher and more consistent, and the fact that he has all time great wins against the likes of Foreman, Frazier and Liston is enough to showcase who is greater.

I'd say the 11 best people Ali fought are better than the 11 best Louis fought, but by no landslide.

Louis' best wins are:
Carnera, M. Baer, Braddock, Schmeling II, Conn (x2), Walcott (x2), Uzcudun, Lewis, Farr, Sharkey, and B. Baer.

Ali's best wins are:
Norton (x2), Frazier (x2), Foreman, Liston (x2), Patterson I, Quarry (x2), Ellis, Bugner (x2), Lyle, Young, Shavers

Louis convincingly beat all his opponents at least once, and in impressive fashion. Ali never convincingly beat Norton, and he robbed Jimmy Young. Louis also got all his wins fighting clean, while Ali broke every rule he could.

Now, Louis still has 22 notable guys he beat after his best 11. Those 22 guys are by FAR, and I mean FAR, better than Ali's next best 22 opponents.

Ziggy Stardust
05-21-2009, 11:30 PM
I'd say the 11 best people Ali fought are better than the 11 best Louis fought, but by no landslide.

Louis' best wins are:
Carnera, M. Baer, Braddock, Schmeling II, Conn (x2), Walcott (x2), Uzcudun, Lewis, Farr, Sharkey, and B. Baer.

Ali's best wins are:
Norton (x2), Frazier (x2), Foreman, Liston (x2), Patterson I, Quarry (x2), Ellis, Bugner (x2), Lyle, Young, Shavers

Louis convincingly beat all his opponents at least once, and in impressive fashion. Ali never convincingly beat Norton, and he robbed Jimmy Young. Louis also got all his wins fighting clean, while Ali broke every rule he could.

Now, Louis still has 22 notable guys he beat after his best 11. Those 22 guys are by FAR, and I mean FAR, better than Ali's next best 22 opponents.

According to Putrid Pommie Louis only fought "bums" :rofl: What a tool.

Poet

them_apples
05-21-2009, 11:34 PM
I'd say the 11 best people Ali fought are better than the 11 best Louis fought, but by no landslide.

Louis' best wins are:
Carnera, M. Baer, Braddock, Schmeling II, Conn (x2), Walcott (x2), Uzcudun, Lewis, Farr, Sharkey, and B. Baer.

Ali's best wins are:
Norton (x2), Frazier (x2), Foreman, Liston (x2), Patterson I, Quarry (x2), Ellis, Bugner (x2), Lyle, Young, Shavers

Louis convincingly beat all his opponents at least once, and in impressive fashion. Ali never convincingly beat Norton, and he robbed Jimmy Young. Louis also got all his wins fighting clean, while Ali broke every rule he could.

Now, Louis still has 22 notable guys he beat after his best 11. Those 22 guys are by FAR, and I mean FAR, better than Ali's next best 22 opponents.

I can't agree with this, think Ali's best opponents were much better competition then Louis'.

Walcott is the best opponent on Louis' resume and he'd lose to just about everyone on those you listed for Ali aside from Ellis and Bugner.

Not bad opponents, but I rate Louis because of his longevity more so then his competition. Ali fought much better competition.

Obama
05-21-2009, 11:38 PM
I can't agree with this, think Ali's best opponents were much better competition then Louis'.

Walcott is the best opponent on Louis' resume and he'd lose to just about everyone on those you listed for Ali aside from Ellis and Bugner.

Not bad opponents, but I rate Louis because of his longevity more so then his competition. Ali fought much better competition.

Walcott is not better than Max Baer imo, but it's close. And to think that Carnera, M. Baer, Braddock, Schmeling, Conn, and Walcott lose to Quarry, Lyle, Young, and Shavers is blasphemy.

Obama
05-21-2009, 11:41 PM
Also, to think that glass jaw Patterson beats M. Baer is perhaps the funniest thing I've ever heard. Altho, I do rate him higher as a Heavyweight, just he's never winning head to head.

And considering what Foreman did to Frazier and Norton, you gotta at least give Baer a chance.

them_apples
05-22-2009, 01:22 AM
Walcott is not better than Max Baer imo, but it's close. And to think that Carnera, M. Baer, Braddock, Schmeling, Conn, and Walcott lose to Quarry, Lyle, Young, and Shavers is blasphemy.

It's not Blasphemy imo. Not saying they would win 10/10 times, but Walcott getting tagged by big punchers like them is not out of the question.

How is Baer better then Walcott? Walcott had boat loads of more skill then Baer.

them_apples
05-22-2009, 01:26 AM
Also, to think that glass jaw Patterson beats M. Baer is perhaps the funniest thing I've ever heard. Altho, I do rate him higher as a Heavyweight, just he's never winning head to head.

And considering what Foreman did to Frazier and Norton, you gotta at least give Baer a chance.

I'm sorry, but Foreman was just something else compared to Max Baer. Perhaps similar styles, but I see your point on a stylistic approach. Norton couldn't deal with huge punchers. I think Frazier would beat Baer though, Baer doesn't have the mother of all uppercuts like Foreman did nor does he have the size and strength of Foreman.

Walcott getting tagged by a guy like Shavers is not out of the question, he hit Holmes, Ali, Norton...the man is very underrated. Walcott couldn't take his overhand right.

Slimey Limey
05-22-2009, 08:00 AM
I've slapped you around like a red-headed step-child before and I'll have no problem doing it again: You're digging yourself deeper. I really don't know what else you can say that could possibly make you look more like an ass than you already have.....but I'm sure you'll come up with something.

Poet

Actually you never slapped anyone around. I always remember you back peddling as soon as someone does not submit to your pro Louis nuthugging crap and you try to hide the fact that you lost with the same old child-ish homosexual references.

Instead of not debating and just standing on the sidelines with your petty little 8th grade insults, you should keep your mouth shut altogether since you can't contribute anything.

Btw, Louis is not even top 5 ATG HW.

I'd say the 11 best people Ali fought are better than the 11 best Louis fought, but by no landslide.

Louis' best wins are:
Carnera, M. Baer, Braddock, Schmeling II, Conn (x2), Walcott (x2), Uzcudun, Lewis, Farr, Sharkey, and B. Baer.

Ali's best wins are:
Norton (x2), Frazier (x2), Foreman, Liston (x2), Patterson I, Quarry (x2), Ellis, Bugner (x2), Lyle, Young, Shavers

Louis convincingly beat all his opponents at least once, and in impressive fashion. Ali never convincingly beat Norton, and he robbed Jimmy Young. Louis also got all his wins fighting clean, while Ali broke every rule he could.

Now, Louis still has 22 notable guys he beat after his best 11. Those 22 guys are by FAR, and I mean FAR, better than Ali's next best 22 opponents.

Actually Ali convincingly beat Norton the second time and the old "He robbed Young" is quite hypocritical since Walcott actually beat Louis as well the first time.

LOL you mentioned Uzcudun, Lewis and Farr? Ali's WORST opponents during his reign were better than that. And Ali's 11 best opponents compared to Louis are so much better it's actually sad that people fool themselves and try to convince themselves that guys like Braddock, Bears, Carnera are ANYWHERE near immortal ATG's like Foreman, Frazier and Liston.

I''d say ALi's resume is 98% perfect, and Louis' is 35% in comparison. You are incredibly biased towards Louis just like Poet and others, in fact i'm starting to think you are his alt.

Walcott is not better than Max Baer imo, but it's close. And to think that Carnera, M. Baer, Braddock, Schmeling, Conn, and Walcott lose to Quarry, Lyle, Young, and Shavers is blasphemy.


Blasphemy! Hahaha.
Indeed Ali's worst opponents would easily beat Louis' best except Walcott and Charles(who both actually beat Louis). What really is blasphemy is that you had the fookin nerves to put CARNERA, Bear, Walcott, Shmeling and Conn in comparison to Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Norton and Patterson.
Ali has 5 Top 10/top 20 ATG HWs on his resume. Joe Louis does not even have 1.

RightCross94
05-22-2009, 09:14 AM
alright, *******. His era was weak, period. he wouldn't have survived in the 20's, pfp dempsey 1919 kills him.

lmao

man ray would probably beat Dempsey and not p4p either, im talking for real

dempsey was in the 180's for most of his fights and ray was at MW for a great deal of his career, thats 20 odd pounds, quite a lot but i still think ray would beat him, completely different skill level

Ziggy Stardust
05-22-2009, 11:48 AM
Actually you never slapped anyone around. I always remember you back peddling as soon as someone does not submit to your pro Louis nuthugging crap and you try to hide the fact that you lost with the same old child-ish homosexual references.

Instead of not debating and just standing on the sidelines with your petty little 8th grade insults, you should keep your mouth shut altogether since you can't contribute anything.

Actually I gave you reasoned answers and quoted source material which you disregarded. I only resorted insults when it became patendly obvious that you were a 24 karot ignoramous for whom reason was wasted on.

Btw, Louis is not even top 5 ATG HW.

Now THAT is obvious bias. Clearly you're just a fan-boi who nuthugs a few fighters but is not a fan of the sport.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
05-22-2009, 11:57 AM
Btw, Louis is not even top 5 ATG HW

BTW, if you're so hot to trot for Ali maybe you should take the discussion with someone like LRR who actually hates Ali and denies his greatness. I get the feeling, though, this is more than just about Ali......the person who's legacy you're REALLY trying to protect is Marciano. Get over it: Marciano wouldn't have survived past 7 rounds against a prime Louis.

Poet

Southpaw16BF
05-22-2009, 12:37 PM
Slimey Limey, you have been made a complete fool of around here, no one agrees with you, and everyone just laughs at you. The things you say are complete bogus, and your biased views for Ali, is shocking and so is your hate for Robinson.

If you want to carry on to make a complete fool of yourself carry on, as I will be glad to make you look stupid one more time. It's just to easy, as your lack of knowlodge is so funny.

The Iron Man
05-22-2009, 12:40 PM
Btw, Louis is not even top 5 ATG HW.

Are you serious!! Could i see your top 10 heavyweight list?

Obama
05-22-2009, 01:38 PM
It's not Blasphemy imo. Not saying they would win 10/10 times, but Walcott getting tagged by big punchers like them is not out of the question.

How is Baer better then Walcott? Walcott had boat loads of more skill then Baer.

Baer beat a prime Carnera and Schmeling. His two best wins trump Walcott's, and his over all career record is superior. You know how they said Sonny Liston would be Heavyweight Champion for a decade when he won the title? They said the same about Baer. Funny thing was, they both lost to the next guy they faced. :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Slimey Limey
05-22-2009, 03:24 PM
Actually I gave you reasoned answers and quoted source material which you disregarded. I only resorted insults when it became patendly obvious that you were a 24 karot ignoramous for whom reason was wasted on.



Now THAT is obvious bias. Clearly you're just a fan-boi who nuthugs a few fighters but is not a fan of the sport.

Poet

Actually you immediately resorted to your 8th grade level insults as soon as I disagreed with you completely. That's what you always do, and you probably always will since you haven't showed any signs of getting over your midlife crisis.

And no it's not bias. Joe Louis has a very padded record with his best wins being against average fighters and a couple of good fighters who actually beat him before or were on their way to beat him. He's not top 5 since Ali, Lewis, Marciano, Tyson, Holyfield and even Foreman have better wins.

Most of you know this, but you have this Joe Louis love imprinted in you. I have yet to see a Louis nuthugger admit a single flaw about the man.

BTW, if you're so hot to trot for Ali maybe you should take the discussion with someone like LRR who actually hates Ali and denies his greatness. I get the feeling, though, this is more than just about Ali......the person who's legacy you're REALLY trying to protect is Marciano. Get over it: Marciano wouldn't have survived past 7 rounds against a prime Louis.

Poet

Haha, Louis was knocked down and/or hurt by some of the most ****ty fighters I've seen such as Galento and you act as if Marciano wouldn't last against him. Plus he easily decapitated past prime Louis. I know that is a horrendous image for you. Prime Marciano destroys Louis in 10. But don't try to go off topic now Poet. This thread is about SRR not being the greatest.

Are you serious!! Could i see your top 10 heavyweight list?

I don't know if I should bother showing a man that only cares about size.

Slimey Limey
05-22-2009, 03:29 PM
Baer beat a prime Carnera and Schmeling. His two best wins trump Walcott's, and his over all career record is superior. You know how they said Sonny Liston would be Heavyweight Champion for a decade when he won the title? They said the same about Baer. Funny thing was, they both lost to the next guy they faced. :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

As if beating Carnera, one of the worst champions of all time, is something to write home about. Walcott was shoulders above Baer in every way. The man gave 2 top 10 ATG Heavyweights a good run for their money. But Baer was pissing himself in his dressing room because he was so affraid to get into the ring with one.

The Iron Man
05-22-2009, 03:51 PM
I don't know if I should bother showing a man that only cares about size.

I explained to you exactly why i thought Marciano would not be the most effective fighter over all the eras. I dont think you even responded. Im expecting Marciano to be at number one?

GJC
05-22-2009, 05:49 PM
Woah, you are talking to an Ali fan here who if you care to check previous posts has made some spirited defences of his resume.
What I am saying is that by including Wepner, Bugner etc you are weakening your case not strengthening it. Frazier, Foreman, Liston etc are great wins and do not need padding.
Ali is the best HW of all time SRR is the best p4p of all time IMO. Trying to convince me that beating Henry Cooper twice is a career defining win will not alter my view.

them_apples
05-22-2009, 05:57 PM
As if beating Carnera, one of the worst champions of all time, is something to write home about. Walcott was shoulders above Baer in every way. The man gave 2 top 10 ATG Heavyweights a good run for their money. But Baer was pissing himself in his dressing room because he was so affraid to get into the ring with one.

I'm gonna have to be the devils advocate and agree with you here, even though you seem to be getting the brunt of everyones insults.

Carnera was a joke, and Wallcott, as I said before was a far superior fighter to Max Baer.

GJC
05-22-2009, 06:11 PM
Oh and SRR has like 4 times the amount of fights Ali had as well as 4 times the amount of LOSSES Ali had.
Four times the fights so 4 times the losses, and your point is?
15 of the 19 SRR losses occured in his 36th year.
Also if you draw the line under SRR's record at Ali's 61 fights you have one defeat so you could say Ali lost 5 times as many as SRR if you wish to slice and dice logic.
I'm a huge Ali fan as I am a SRR fan and a number of other fighters including Louis, Dempsey and Marciano. I believe there is enough room for all of them without the need to denegrate one fighter to bolster another fighters record.
Ali's career speaks for itself and is little served by you speaking for him.

Ziggy Stardust
05-22-2009, 06:12 PM
Actually you immediately resorted to your 8th grade level insults as soon as I disagreed with you completely. That's what you always do, and you probably always will since you haven't showed any signs of getting over your midlife crisis.


I'll be waiting for you to elaborate on Louis' opposition, unless of cource if the only thing you can say is "others are like mickey mouse club(what the fook is that mate?) compared to Joe". Bum of the month club mate, unless you can explain me otherwise.

The so-called "Bum Of The Month Club" officially refers those fighters Louis fought between December of 1940 and March of 1941. They are:

1940-12-16 Al McCoy
1941-01-31 Red Burman
1941-02-17 Gus Dorazio
1941-03-21 Abe Simon
1941-04-08 Tony Musto
1941-05-23 Buddy Baer
1941-06-18 Billy Conn

Al McCoy - 115 career wins including wins over Tommy Loughran and Nathan Mann.

Red Burman - 76 career wins including a win over Tommy Farr.

Gus Dorazio - 73 career wins including a win over Bob Pastor.

Abe Simon - Outweighed Louis by 50 pounds and had a win over Jersey Joe Walcott.

Tony Musto - The only true bum of the bunch.

Buddy Baer - Outweighed Louis by 35 pounds, 52 career wins including wins over Lee Savold, Nathan Mann, and Tony Galento.

Billy Conn - Light-Heavyweight Champion, 64 career wins including wins over Fritzie Zivic, Vince Dundee, Teddy Yarosz, Fred Apostoli, Gus Lesnevich, Melio Bettina, Bob Pastor, Lee Savold, and Tony Zale.

Poet

Somebody just got owned! Nice work Poet.


.Anyone reading the "Greatest Title Reign" thread will see who started the trolling. The above quote is from that thread where I give chapter and verse and you blow it off in favor of chanting you're "bum" mantra.

And no it's not bias. Joe Louis has a very padded record with his best wins being against average fighters and a couple of good fighters who actually beat him before or were on their way to beat him. He's not top 5 since Ali, Lewis, Marciano, Tyson, Holyfield and even Foreman have better wins.

Oh? You mean like Marciano's biggest wins coming against Walcott, Charles, Louis, and Moore: Fighters all past it?

Most of you know this, but you have this Joe Louis love imprinted in you. I have yet to see a Louis nuthugger admit a single flaw about the man.[/COLOR]

Most of you know Marciano was a slow, clusmsy, low-skilled fighter who ate punches and bled like Henry Cooper, but you have this Rocky love imprinted in you. I have yet to see a Marciano nuthugger admit a single flaw about the man.

[QUOTE=Slimey Limey;5341466]Haha, Louis was knocked down and/or hurt by some of the most ****ty fighters I've seen such as Galento and you act as if Marciano wouldn't last against him.

Oh, you mean the way Marciano was dropped by Moore: A LIGHT-Heavyweight.

Plus he easily decapitated past prime Louis.

Hmmm. The fight was even on the cards at the time of the stoppage I believe. Please explain how that is "easy". Of course that also means a PRIME Marciano was made to look foolish by an old man.

Prime Marciano destroys Louis in 10.

Only when you're wanking off.

But don't try to go off topic now Poet. This thread is about SRR not being the greatest.

I do believe it was YOU who brought Ali and Louis into this thread. You might want to try reading back, provided you can overcome your chronic myopia.

PS. I see you now have Iron Man on your ass now too. You're track record speaks for itself: You've managed to get yourself slapped around by practically every good poster on this board. You, Sir, are the definition of an "internet troll"; ultimately,though,everyone you take on makes you their "internet *****". Now go play in traffice before you embarress your countrymen even more.

Poet

TheGreatA
05-22-2009, 06:29 PM
Sugar Ray Robinson's resume:

Joe Ghnouly (former top 10 contender)
Pete Lello (top 3 contender)
Sammy Angott (reigning lightweight champion, defeated a prime Willie Pep, hall of famer)
Maxie Shapiro (top 10 contender)
Marty Servo (42-0, future welterweight champion)
Fritzie Zivic (top 3 contender, former welterweight champion, hall of famer)
Norman Rubio (top 10 contender)
Tony Motisi (top 10 contender)
Jake LaMotta (top middleweight, middleweight champion, hall of famer)
Izzy Janazzo (top 10 welterweight contender)
California Jackie Wilson (top 3 welterweight)
Ralph Zannelli (top 5 welterweight)
Henry Armstrong (number 1 ranked challenger, former welterweight champion, hall of famer)
Tommy Bell (number 1 ranked challenger)
George Costner (number 2 ranked challenger)
Jose Basora (top 5 middleweight)
Jimmy McDaniels (top 5 welterweight)
Georgie Abrams (top 5 middleweight)
Jimmy Doyle (top 2 welterweight)
Bernard Docusen (top 3 welterweight)
Kid Gavilan (number 1 ranked welterweight challenger, future welterweight champion, hall of famer)
Steve Belloise (top 2 middleweight contender)
Aaron Wade (past prime middleweight contender)
Ray Barnes (top 10 middleweight)
Robert Villemain (top 3 middleweight)
Charley Fusari (top 10 welterweight)
Bobo Olson (middleweight champion, hall of famer)
Holley Mims (future contender)
Randy Turpin (middleweight champion, hall of famer)
Rocky Graziano (former middleweight champion, hall of famer)
Rocky Castellani (number 1 middleweight challenger)
Gene Fullmer (middleweight champion, hall of famer)
Carmen Basilio (welterweight and middleweight champion, hall of famer)
Denny Moyer (light middleweight champion)
Ralph Dupas (light middleweight champion)

:boxing:

Slimey Limey
05-22-2009, 06:59 PM
Woah, you are talking to an Ali fan here who if you care to check previous posts has made some spirited defences of his resume.
What I am saying is that by including Wepner, Bugner etc you are weakening your case not strengthening it. Frazier, Foreman, Liston etc are great wins and do not need padding.
Ali is the best HW of all time SRR is the best p4p of all time IMO. Trying to convince me that beating Henry Cooper twice is a career defining win will not alter my view.

You might want to learn how to use the 'quote' button because I don't even remember you, so I think you just bursted back into this thread after I replied to you pages ago.
Wepner, Bugner and Cooper are better wins than Robinson's lesser impressive wins. THAT is what i'm getting at.
The fact that Ali's best wins as well as his worst wins are better than SRR's.

Four times the fights so 4 times the losses, and your point is?
15 of the 19 SRR losses occured in his 36th year.
Also if you draw the line under SRR's record at Ali's 61 fights you have one defeat so you could say Ali lost 5 times as many as SRR if you wish to slice and dice logic.
I'm a huge Ali fan as I am a SRR fan and a number of other fighters including Louis, Dempsey and Marciano. I believe there is enough room for all of them without the need to denegrate one fighter to bolster another fighters record.
Ali's career speaks for itself and is little served by you speaking for him.

Point is that Ali had a much much shorter career yet he still had a superior record compared to SRR.
15 of the 19 SRR in his 36th year? How about Ali NEVER lost in his prime, had his first loss against a prime undefeated legend after his long lay off, then later on lost against the biggest styles mismatch in his career against another great fighter. His other losses were when he was quite old/washed up and even started suffering from Parkinsons syndrome.
On the other hand SRR was losing against Lamotta and Turpin, great fighters, and was stopped by Maxim(don't give me the heat crap either. Ali vs Frazier were life and death fights and Ali was never stopped. Maxim was suffering under the same conditions as Robinson and he didn't quit).
Then after his lay off there was the Ralph Jones loss, and they started piling up from there on. Ali was more succesful after HIS lay off.

So, it doesn't seem like Robinson has anything on Ali, except for the amount of fights they had.

Oh? You mean like Marciano's biggest wins coming against Walcott, Charles, Louis, and Moore: Fighters all past it?[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Slimey Limey;5341466]Most of you know this, but you have this Joe Louis love imprinted in you. I have yet to see a Louis nuthugger admit a single flaw about the man.[/COLOR]

Most of you know Marciano was a slow, clusmsy, low-skilled fighter who ate punches and bled like Henry Cooper, but you have this Rocky love imprinted in you. I have yet to see a Marciano nuthugger admit a single flaw about the man.



Oh, you mean the way Marciano was dropped by Moore: A LIGHT-Heavyweight.



Hmmm. The fight was even on the cards at the time of the stoppage I believe. Please explain how that is "easy". Of course that also means a PRIME Marciano was made to look foolish by an old man.



Only when you're wanking off.



I do believe it was YOU who brought Ali and Louis into this thread. You might want to try reading back, provided you can overcome your chronic myopia.

PS. I see you now have Iron Man on your ass now too. You're track record speaks for itself: You've managed to get yourself slapped around by practically every good poster on this board. You, Sir, are the definition of an "internet troll"; ultimately,though,everyone you take on makes you their "internet *****". Now go play in traffice before you embarress your countrymen even more.

Poet

Same with you, learn how to make a proper post. I don't even understand what your intention is here, why are you posting off topic crap from another thread Poet?

And I was waiting for you to start bashing Marciano, and you finally cracked:dance: Oh oh the old Poet broke his promise yet again, that he would never bash a pro fighter because of another poster. You have zero respect for this great sport.

This thread has nothing to do with Marciano. You are reported for repeated off topic posts. Stick to the topic or buzz off mate.

Ziggy Stardust
05-22-2009, 08:03 PM
Same with you, learn how to make a proper post.

Learn how to use your quotes Junior.

I don't even understand what your intention is here

To rebutt every piece of verbal diarrhea that spews from your mouth maybe?

why are you posting off topic crap from another thread Poet?

Because you brought the subjects up in the first place.

And I was waiting for you to start bashing Marciano, and you finally cracked:dance: Oh oh the old Poet broke his promise yet again, that he would never bash a pro fighter because of another poster.

I never promise anything: Except a good slapping to low-intellect fan-bois like yourself.

You have zero respect for this great sport.

I have far more respect for the sport than you're ever likely to: You just tug on the nuts of a few fighters that get your willie hard.

This thread has nothing to do with Marciano.

This thread has nothing to do with Ali or Louis, yet, once again, YOU brought them up.

You are reported for repeated off topic posts.

:bottle: Have a binky crybaby. What's the matter? Can't handle getting posted on your own petard? Don't whine about going off topic when YOU'RE the one doing it and others are mearly responding to you.

Stick to the topic or buzz off mate.

First off, I'm NOT your mate. Secondly, take your own advice: Don't bring Ali and Louis into a thread about Robinson then winge when someone responds to your moronic posts.

Poet

GJC
05-22-2009, 08:07 PM
Wepner, Bugner and Cooper are better wins than Robinson's lesser impressive wins. THAT is what i'm getting at.
The fact that Ali's best wins as well as his worst wins are better than SRR's.


Every fighter has pups on their record. I assume you are trying to say that Ali's worst wins are better than SRR's worst wins rather than SRR's best win?





Point is that Ali had a much much shorter career yet he still had a superior record compared to SRR.



Well this is your opinion. Again you are ranting at an Ali fan here, just I rate SRR the better p4p fighter as indeed did Ali.


On the other hand SRR was losing against Lamotta and Turpin, great fighters, and was stopped by Maxim(don't give me the heat crap either. Ali vs Frazier were life and death fights and Ali was never stopped. Maxim was suffering under the same conditions as Robinson and he didn't quit).


LaMotta was the only fighter that beat him at his peak, one win out of 6 fights. Who is to say that had Ali had fought Frazier, Foreman, Norton etc 6 times he wouldn't have picked up a couple more losses.
True Maxim was the only one who didn't quit, the referee did too, so the heat crap obviously effected him as well



So, it doesn't seem like Robinson has anything on Ali, except for the amount of fights they had.


Ali was a wonderful fighter no doubt of that, as was SRR. It would need someone far more knowledgable than yourself and who can construct better arguments to convince me that SRR's record is as shabby as you consider it to be.

GJC
05-22-2009, 08:10 PM
.
Most of you know Marciano was a slow, clusmsy, low-skilled fighter who ate punches and bled like Henry Cooper, but you have this Rocky love imprinted in you. I have yet to see a Marciano nuthugger admit a single flaw about the man.

Poet[/COLOR]

And you leave the Rock alone else I'm coming for you :)

Ziggy Stardust
05-22-2009, 08:15 PM
And you leave the Rock alone else I'm coming for you :)

:rofl: Sorry, but the dude can't handle what he TRIES to dish out. Nothing against your countrymen but if Wellington's best were as unhinged and slow-witted as THIS boob you'd all be speaking French.

Poet

GJC
05-22-2009, 08:20 PM
:rofl: Sorry, but the dude can't handle what he TRIES to dish out. Nothing against your countrymen but if Wellington's best were as unhinged and slow-witted as THIS boob you'd all be speaking French.

Poet
Hey 1st the Rock now my country! :)
Hey your lot got a fair few window lickers in these forums and Dubya!

Ziggy Stardust
05-22-2009, 08:35 PM
Hey 1st the Rock now my country! :)
Hey your lot got a fair few window lickers in these forums and Dubya!

Naw, I rather think Putrid Pommie is an embarrassment to all good Britons everywhere. I'm sure Monty could have found SOME use for him: Maybe to inadvertantly discover a mine field somewhere, first and LAST job he'd have for the British 8th. Army.

Poet

them_apples
05-22-2009, 08:43 PM
lol @ Rocky love

The guy hit harder then..oh that's right..Ricky Hatton, but by only 100 lbs of force.

Hatton = 900 lbs

Rocky = 1000 lbs

Myth of Rocky's punching power now has dissolved..

for the record of those saying he had a heavyweight frame, the Man's chest was smaller than Juan Manuel Marquez's.

just some random pointless facts I thought I would throw in there.:boxing:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6228040.stm

GJC
05-22-2009, 08:44 PM
Naw, I rather think Putrid Pommie is an embarrassment to all good Britons everywhere. I'm sure Monty could have found SOME use for him: Maybe to inadvertantly discover a mine field somewhere, first and LAST job he'd have for the British 8th. Army.

Poet
To completely change the subject, Louis v Marciano?
Forgetting the actual fight which counts for little, ten fights how many does Marciano win?
I rate Louis as the better fighter but do fancy in that cut ignoring era with his chin and Suzi Q against Louis dropping his left that Marciano would nick 3 of them. Fair?

GJC
05-22-2009, 08:46 PM
lol @ Rocky love

The guy hit harder then..oh that's right..Ricky Hatton, but by only 100 lbs of force.

Hatton = 900 lbs

Rocky = 1000 lbs

Myth of Rocky's punching power now has dissolved..

for the record of those saying he had a heavyweight frame, the Man's chest was smaller than Juan Manuel Marquez's.

just some random pointless facts I thought I would throw in there.:boxing:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6228040.stm
Had a shorter reach than Barry McGuigan too was a fact that always stuck in my mind.
Have to factor in heart stamina and chin too, don't underestimate Marciano think he would have let everyone know they were in a fight.

Ziggy Stardust
05-22-2009, 08:50 PM
To completely change the subject, Louis v Marciano?
Forgetting the actual fight which counts for little, ten fights how many does Marciano win?
I rate Louis as the better fighter but do fancy in that cut ignoring era with his chin and Suzi Q against Louis dropping his left that Marciano would nick 3 of them. Fair?

I'd say Louis probably wins 7-8 out of 10. I don't think Marciano gets counted out but I do think he ends up getting sparred from more punishment by the referee. Rocky gets beaten up and have more heart then is good for his health someone else has to pull his plug.

Poet

them_apples
05-22-2009, 08:51 PM
Had a shorter reach than Barry McGuigan too was a fact that always stuck in my mind.
Have to factor in heart stamina and chin too, don't underestimate Marciano think he would have let everyone know they were in a fight.

Hatton actually hits at about 882 lbs of force like the article said, rocky was always measured at about 1000 lbs of force (just google it). Not a huge difference when it's a JWW being compared to a supposed Heavyweight.

so now it comes down to skill, since his insane power is a myth as I always thought. It was more so his workrate.

GJC
05-22-2009, 08:53 PM
I'd say Louis probably wins 7-8 out of 10. I don't think Marciano gets counted out but I do think he ends up getting sparred from more punishment by the referee. Rocky gets beaten up and have more heart then is good for his health someone else has to pull his plug.

Poet
Agreed he would get stopped in an era of more compasionate refereeing. I always give him a shot in his era simply because you can rely on him still being there swinging at the 15th.

GJC
05-22-2009, 08:56 PM
Hatton actually hits at about 882 lbs of force like the article said, rocky was always measured at about 1000 lbs of force (just google it). Not a huge difference when it's a JWW being compared to a supposed Heavyweight.

so now it comes down to skill, since his insane power is a myth as I always thought. It was more so his workrate.
Not saying he had insane power but you are not going to knock the guy out he was always 100% prepared to fight and had superb stamina. 1000lbs of power, i'll take your word for it as I don't know about these scientific measurements to be honest. But I do know that no one would want to take his shots in the later rounds of a 15 round fight.

Ziggy Stardust
05-22-2009, 08:58 PM
Hatton actually hits at about 882 lbs of force like the article said, rocky was always measured at about 1000 lbs of force (just google it). Not a huge difference when it's a JWW being compared to a supposed Heavyweight.

so now it comes down to skill, since his insane power is a myth as I always thought. It was more so his workrate.

I'd take articles like that with a dose of salt though. Genrally speaking, any of the stories regarding PSI measurements that are supposed to have taken place prior to 1980 are apocraphal.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
05-22-2009, 09:02 PM
Not saying he had insane power but you are not going to knock the guy out he was always 100% prepared to fight and had superb stamina. 1000lbs of power, i'll take your word for it as I don't know about these scientific measurements to be honest. But I do know that no one would want to take his shots in the later rounds of a 15 round fight.

I think the difference is that Marciano was never in the ring with a fighter that had the combination of one-punch power, rediculous accuracy, and fast hands as like a prime Louis had. Simply too much punishment to take even given the lenient refereeing of the era.

Poet

Obama
05-22-2009, 09:42 PM
As if beating Carnera, one of the worst champions of all time, is something to write home about. Walcott was shoulders above Baer in every way. The man gave 2 top 10 ATG Heavyweights a good run for their money. But Baer was pissing himself in his dressing room because he was so affraid to get into the ring with one.

I can definitely name 20 Heavyweight Champions worse than Carnera. He's not even the worst undisputed Heavyweight Champion. Carnera at his best was a damn good fighter. His fight with Jack Sharkey was perhaps his greatest performance.

Walcott gave a post prime Joe Louis a run for his money, and I don't consider Marciano a top 10 Heavyweight. ;) Max Baer had the balls to fight a prime Joe Louis, you slander him on rumors that he pissed himself in the dressing room before the fight? Walcott never stepped in the ring with something that dangerous, so essentially calling Baer a ***** is plain foolhardy.

Obama
05-22-2009, 10:17 PM
lol @ Rocky love

The guy hit harder then..oh that's right..Ricky Hatton, but by only 100 lbs of force.

Hatton = 900 lbs

Rocky = 1000 lbs

Myth of Rocky's punching power now has dissolved..

for the record of those saying he had a heavyweight frame, the Man's chest was smaller than Juan Manuel Marquez's.

just some random pointless facts I thought I would throw in there.:boxing:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6228040.stm

Can I get a source for Marciano's punching power? I didn't see it in the Hatton article.

GJC
05-22-2009, 11:05 PM
I can definitely name 20 Heavyweight Champions worse than Carnera. He's not even the worst undisputed Heavyweight Champion. Carnera at his best was a damn good fighter. His fight with Jack Sharkey was perhaps his greatest performance.

Walcott gave a post prime Joe Louis a run for his money, and I don't consider Marciano a top 10 Heavyweight. ;) Max Baer had the balls to fight a prime Joe Louis, you slander him on rumors that he pissed himself in the dressing room before the fight? Walcott never stepped in the ring with something that dangerous, so essentially calling Baer a ***** is plain foolhardy.
Max Baer wasn't an ATG but was a pretty good fighter. Could have pushed himself far higher up the ATG ratings with more dedication IMO

them_apples
05-22-2009, 11:37 PM
Can I get a source for Marciano's punching power? I didn't see it in the Hatton article.

yea ill hook you up...

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Arena/1047/Rock3.html

old article

Frank Bruno:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3936571?dopt=Abstract

6320N or 1450 lbs of force

http://www.gamezone.com/news/05_20_02_08_21PM.htm

they put Tyson at 7000N or 1600 lbs of force

also heard both mike and Lewis got tested and Lewis hit harder.

I've heard klitschko hit on par w/ Lewis as well. (no source for this, only heard it on this forum)

I posted the Hatton article earlier and he scored 885 lbs. Which seems a little high but he's a stocky guy I guess.

so what does this mean? absolutely nothing! because I highly doubt Pacquiao was hitting at 1000 like it looked like..and he KTFO Hatton.

Comes down to skills and timing.

Ziggy Stardust
05-22-2009, 11:43 PM
Max Baer wasn't an ATG but was a pretty good fighter. Could have pushed himself far higher up the ATG ratings with more dedication IMO

Baer was good fighter but I wouldn't rate him over Walcott who I regard very highly and as borderline ATG. Not the greatest chin but probably not as weak as is sometimes made out; one of the most skilled and crafty fighters that ever lived.

Poet