Is just going for a submission enough? I mean, Verissimo was going for a submission the whole second round against Hughes, but never got close. On the other hand, he damn near choked him out in the first round. How close do you have to get to earn poitns for a submission?

Charuto won round 1 and 2 IMO. yet 2 judges scored the fight 30-27. In the UFC whoever gets the takedown and stays on top wins. I didn't see Hughes trying to finish the fight at no point during the fight.

thats not my question. Yes, Charuto won the first round in my eyes, but the second round was even to me with maybe a slight edge to Hughes because he did try to improve his position. He took Charuto down several times, he passed his guard several times, and dispite what the fans in attendence would tell you, he didn't just lay ontop of Charuto. He was always working to pass guard. 30-27? Hell no, 29-28 Hughes? Yeah, thats how I scored it.

My Question about getting points for submissions is how close to do you have to get before it counts for something. I mean, Charuto was trying for submissions all thru the second round but never got close to one. In the first round he nearly finished Hughes twice. Now, do both of thoses count towards him winning the round? I don't think so, submissions have to at least be close to scoore points. They need to do some damage. Maybe a choke thats partly in, or cranking on an arm but having someone slip out of it. Not just attempting one.

I would've called it a draw. Charuto won Rd. 1, Hughes won Rd. 2, even Rd. 3.

I've talked to promoters and read some things that judges look for. You get points for sub attempts and points for escapes. Points for take downs and points for escapes or reversing position. So basically, If you get taken down and put in an arm bar and you escape and get back up you both get points. (See Franca vs. Yves)
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Effective Aggressiveness.
This is determined as the fighter showing most effort to win. It is of no use to simply be aggressive. The fighter’s effort must be effective effort.

Effective Technique.
This area includes Striking, Clinch Work, Takedowns, Submission attempts, Transitioning, and Positioning.

Cage/ Ring Control. This is assessed by determining which fighter has used the fighting area to his / her advantage the most.
Defence / Escapes.
This area includes avoiding and blocking of strikes, reversals from pins and mount, escapes from submissions i.e. transitioning to avoid a submission, etc. etc.

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I haven't watched the Hughes fight so I'm just saying in general but if Charuto worked from the guard a lot during the fight that's why he lost. It's the UFC's deal not mine so don't complain to me. They're the ones trying to discourage it. If you just stand there and wait for the take down and pull guard you're not going to win no matter how many sub attempts you try.
Again (I haven't watched the Hughes fight so I'm just saying in general)

Charuto won round 1 and 2 IMO. yet 2 judges scored the fight 30-27. In the UFC whoever gets the takedown and stays on top wins. I didn't see Hughes trying to finish the fight at no point during the fight.

If this was the case, Kevin Randleman would have won vs. Bas Rutten.
Kevin took Bas down at will numerous times and was on top.
Charuto vs Hughes should have been in favor of Charuto of a draw. IMO

If this was the case, Kevin Randleman would have won vs. Bas Rutten.
Kevin took Bas down at will numerous times and was on top.
Charuto vs Hughes should have been in favor of Charuto of a draw. IMO

Yeah. but Randleman didn't do anything for the last half of the fight. He just got the takedown and did nothing. Hughes was always working to pass guard and did so a number of times. Also, Bas was striking from his back, not going for submissions that never came close to finishing. The only time Charuto got close was in round 1. He never took HUghes down, he never swept him. I think takedowns and guard passes count for something too.

I think that trying to finish the fight via submission should earn more points than merely escaping. You should get rewarded for pushing the action, if both fighters just tried to survive the whole time the fight would suck ass. That's why I was so pissed at the Franca Edwards decision, Yves merely escaped and defended for most of that fight. I kinda thought Verrisimo edged out Hughes as well.

I think that trying to finish the fight via submission should earn more points than merely escaping. You should get rewarded for pushing the action, if both fighters just tried to survive the whole time the fight would suck ass. That's why I was so pissed at the Franca Edwards decision, Yves merely escaped and defended for most of that fight. I kinda thought Verrisimo edged out Hughes as well.

in round one yes, but there are two other rounds and Verissimo never came close after round one. Dude, it makes me so mad that people think just going for submissions scores you points. You need to get close, you need to put your oppoent in danger. Outside of round 1, Verissimo never did that.

neither did matt.

neither did matt.

Dogg has reamed and spunked all over the rectum of the correct. I don't remember Hughes passing Charuto's guard once during the match, and Hughes barely mounted any kind of ground and pound. Charuto neutralized all of that. He had Hughes in dangerous spots on numerous occasions. Charuto clearly won round one. Round two could have gone either way, and I thought Hughes won round three simply because he had better position and was a bit more active. The fight probably should've been scored a draw.

You're such a ****ing retard Creed, reread my ****in' post. I said that the the guy going for submissions and trying to end the fight should get MORE points than the guy escaping and just doing nothing but trying to survive. So a guy that is taking all the risks and pressing the action should get less points than the guy who instead of trying to win is only trying not to lose? ****ing idiot, I thought you said you weren't gonna post in the MMA forum anymore.

IMO, Charuto's failed submission attempts should eb worth about as much as Matt's relatively passive G&P, plus he also gets the edge in aggressiveness for attempting those submissions and striknig from his back. Also, Matt was only ever in either Charuto's guard or half guard (from where Charuto usually regained guard) sans one brief moment in side mount.

It wasn't until round 3 that Matt's aggresiveness came clsoe to Charuto's, finally putting forth some active G&P and the kimura attempt.

neither did matt.

No, but Matt was in the dominate position. Being on the bottom is kind of like being against the ropes in boxing. Your not always in a bad position there, you can do some excellent work there and some fighters actually prefer to be there, but in general its not where you want to be. Verissimo won the first round by controlling the tempo and nearly finishing Hughes. In the second round, nothing happend save for Verissimo trying for (but never getting close too) and armbar/triangle and Hughes getting two takedowns and passing guard to half guard and side control. So it comes down to if you prefer wrestling or jiu jitsu. Hughes controlled round 3 as his strength seemed to of worn Verissimo down by that point.

Two judges scoring the fight 30-27 for Hughes was just wrong. 29-28, yeah, thats how I had it. Its the same argument I used for why Ricco beat Nogueira. Going for submissions and failing doesn't get you points and escaping a submission and ending up in the dominate position does. Verissimo never got a takedown, he never got a sweep, all he did was lay on his back and go for submissions. You CAN'T win a fight doing that. People give too many poitns to submission attempts. You might as well give points for punches that miss.

No, but Matt was in the dominate position.
On top? Like Kevin Randleman who was always on top of Bas?

On top? Like Kevin Randleman who was always on top of Bas?

Dude, a lot of people think Kevin won that fight. Bas also landed some shots standing including a hellvua liver shot that took the fight right out of Randleman, he spent the whole fight trying to recover from it and thats why he did nothing for the rest of it.

Dude, comparing Rutten vs Randleman and Verissimo vs Hughes is like apples and oranges. I am trying to compare it to Rodriguiez vs Nogueira. Just because someone is going for a submission doesn't mean they are close to a submission. Giving someone poitns for trying to finish a fight is good if they got close to finishing the fight. Verissimo did get close in the first round and how two of the judges gave the first round to Hughes boggles my mind. However, round 2 was really close and neither fighter did much. So it comes down to if you score the round for Hughes' takedowns and guard passes (something he did do) or Verissimos attempted submissions (something he tried to do). Round 3 was pretty clearly Matts round as Verissimo seemed to be a bit worn out by Hughes' strength at that point. So its round 1 to Verissimo, round 3 to Hughes and then it comes down to what you like better. Takedowns and guard passes or attempted submissions. For me, its clear. None of the submissions in the second round really presented a danger to Hughes, thus its not an attempt to finish the fight. Its like Hughes ground and pound, sure he was throwing punches but nothing hurt Verissimo in that second round. So the only thing that scores points in that round was position. That goes to Hughes.

So, why do you guys think infective submissons are scored but infective GnP isn't?