View Full Version : jack dempsey is the most overrated.....


billionaire
04-27-2009, 03:53 PM
i used to get taught he was great but when you look at it he really isnt.....11 draws = weak

all he did was beat down big goofy white guys with 2 left feet....he gets respect because he was a lil guy and was exciting but other than that hes nothing special.......the one time he fought a black guy it was a bum journeyman who was 20-10 or something and it was a tie thats how bad he was.......

he milked his championship for all he got, he barely even fought at all, forget harry wills......

about the long count - if he was such a great stalker he wouldve put tunney on his ass again, instead he got put on his ass the next round........thats on jermaine taylors level

joe louis would smoke that fool

mickey malone
04-27-2009, 05:36 PM
i used to get taught he was great but when you look at it he really isnt.....11 draws = weak

all he did was beat down big goofy white guys with 2 left feet....he gets respect because he was a lil guy and was exciting but other than that hes nothing special.......the one time he fought a black guy it was a bum journeyman who was 20-10 or something and it was a tie thats how bad he was.......

he milked his championship for all he got, he barely even fought at all, forget harry wills......

about the long count - if he was such a great stalker he wouldve put tunney on his ass again, instead he got put on his ass the next round........thats on jermaine taylors level

joe louis would smoke that fool
Agreed... Just a very good brawler....

JAB5239
04-27-2009, 07:07 PM
Agreed... Just a very good brawler....

Dempsey was much more than a brawler.

Southpaw16BF
04-27-2009, 09:31 PM
This has been said a good few times, and this was my reply the last time it was said Dempey was overrated.....

Yeah i guess some boxing writers may get carried away with him, but i think you've went a little over the top with your comment.

.Pretty hard to say Willard was over the hill when he never actually started boxing till he was 30 years of age, so he had only been in the game 7 years, and was coming off 6 wins(3 by ko), which included a ko win over Jack Johnson yes a over the hill one, and a defence of his world title against Frank Moran, so Willard was not really over the hill.

.Should of made more defences instead of going to hollywood, but he did make 5 defences and won 4 by Ko which is pretty impressive.

.You say he never beat a prime fighter, when he fought Tommy Gibbons, in Gibbons's last 50 fights the only man to beat him was the great Harry Grebx2.Dempsey would end this run with a 15 Round UD.

.Georges Carpentier may have not been at his natraul weight, but going into the Dempsey fight he had not been defeated in 6 years, was coming of a KO win over the tough Battling Levinsky, and was World Light Heavyweight champion and was European Heavyweight champion. Dempsey Ko'd him in 4.

.Luis Angel Firpo had not been beat in 4 years,and in his last 12 fights he had ko'd 11, and did have wins over Jess Willard and Charley Weinert. Demspey ko'd him in 2 in a epic battle.

.When Dempsey defeated Jack Sharkey, Sharkley hadn't been beat in 2 years, and was on a 13 fight win streak, which included wins over Harry Wills. Dempsey ko'd him in 7, and after Sharrkley would on to defeat Max Schmeling the man to give Joe Louis his first loss, to capture the heavyweight crown.

.When Dempsey fought Gene Tunney the second time a fighter who was in his prime, by many boxing experts Dempsey should of been the winner due the famous long count, in which Tunney was belived to of been down 14 seconds.

Also
.One of the Biggest Ever Boxing's Draw's if not the biggest.
.Viewed by some as the one of the Hardest ever punchers if not the hardest puncher of all time.
.Held wins over Fireman Jim Flynn,Jess Willard,Georges Carpentier,Tommy Gibbons, and Luis Angel Firpo.

So we can all make bad points about past ATG fighters, but i think you went a bit over the top with the Demspey comment and like it or not he's no dout a ATG fighter in my eyes and many many other boxing experts.

.

I undertand some of the things I'am saying in my article are things you have not said, but your probaly thinking most of it anyway.

But like most fighters Dempsey did have his bad points, no dout and your intitled to your views that you belive he was overrated, but I don't know about the most overrated fighter ever, and he's not as overrated as you make him out to be, all do like I said some people may get carried away with him.

Southpaw Stinger
04-27-2009, 09:33 PM
Dempsey knew fighting better than anyone.

Southpaw16BF
04-27-2009, 09:38 PM
i used to get taught he was great but when you look at it he really isnt.....11 draws = weak

And you say due to him having 11 draws makes him weak, lots of ATG fighters have draws on there record etc Carlos Monzon(9), Archie Moore(11), Henry Armstrong(11) and many more great fighters have been held to draws over the years, but it dosen't make them ''weak''

Southpaw Stinger
04-27-2009, 09:47 PM
And you say due to him having 11 draws makes him weak, lots of ATG fighters have draws on there record etc Carlos Monzon(9), Archie Moore(11), Henry Armstrong(11) and many more great fighters have been held to draws over the years, but it dosen't make them ''weak''

People are ignorant of the old time fights.

In his early fights there was often no judging involved and if a fight went the distance then it was automaticly declared either a draw or a NC. You could batter a guy around the ring but if you couldn't get him out of there it could still lead to a draw/NC in some of those fights. People relied on newspaper journalists for their oppinion on who won.
If Paulie Malignacci fought in those day he probably wouldn't get a win on record.

Ziggy Stardust
04-27-2009, 09:59 PM
People are ignorant of the old time fights.

In his early fights there was often no judging involved and if a fight went the distance then it was automaticly declared either a draw or a NC. You could batter a guy around the ring but if you couldn't get him out of there it could still lead to a draw/NC in some of those fights. People relied on newspaper journalists for their oppinion on who won.
If Paulie Malignacci fought in those day he probably wouldn't get a win on record.

Thank you Stinger: You beat me too it :fing02: I would also point out that Mike Tyson patterened himself on Jack Dempsey, considered Dempsey his hero. One would think with the worship that Tyson gets around here that people would be more respectful of the fighter Tyson admired over all others.

Poet

Southpaw16BF
04-27-2009, 10:02 PM
People are ignorant of the old time fights.

In his early fights there was often no judging involved and if a fight went the distance then it was automaticly declared either a draw or a NC. You could batter a guy around the ring but if you couldn't get him out of there it could still lead to a draw/NC in some of those fights. People relied on newspaper journalists for their oppinion on who won.
If Paulie Malignacci fought in those day he probably wouldn't get a win on record.

Indeed, some posters need to understand when you see lots of losses and draws on the old school fighter's such as Dempsey Langford etc.

They need to understand things such as fixed fights, carrying your opponet, newpaper decision's, draws etc, were all very common back in certain era's. And no offence to the person who started this thread, I don't think you no much about the history deparment in boxing, with all due respect.

For example you may see alot of newspaper decision on the records of fighter like Harry Greb and Sam Langford etc.

Now Newspaper decisions are rendered when the state does not allow an officail decision and the sporting writers give their opinion as to who won the fight in the newspapers. ''No decison fights'' as they are often called were still the norm in alot of the boxing world, this meaning alot of bouts would likely end this way.

But for example fighitng was legal in New York when Harry Greb was fighting, but no decsion bouts were the norm in Grebs hometown Pitsburgh were he was doing most of his fighting, so thats why alot of Grebs fight are no decision or newspaper decisions.

Therefore in the record books, you will see ND6, which means a newspaper decision fight sceduled for six rounds.

Infern0
04-27-2009, 10:05 PM
Op, No he isn't, Mike Tyson or Rocky Marciano are

GJC
04-28-2009, 10:02 AM
he milked his championship for all he got, he barely even fought at all, forget harry wills......


Think the draws and no decisions have already been covered far better than I could. Re the defences or lack of them, its true that Dempsey could have defended more and I for one would have loved to have seen him fight Wills. What you need to look at however is the era, in those days the HW championship was hard won and once held the champions made it work for them financially by doing tours exhibitions etc.
Before Dempsey's 3 year break before the Tunney fight he had defended his title 5 times in 4 years so with the 1st Tunney fight 6 times in 7 years. Whilst he wasn't overactive that rate stands comparison with the HW champions before him. Corbett once in 5 years, Fitz defend defend it until 2 years later, Jefferies 7 times in 5 years, Johnson 8 times in 7 years, Willard once in 4 years.
As for the Wills fight I believe it was scheduled to happen but it didn't happen more down to his promotor Rickard rather than Dempsey, what ever critcisms people have of Dempsey he was no coward.
Rickard had promoted the Jeffries v Johnson fight years before and remembering the racial troubles that had occured as a cause of that fight had no desire to promote another black v white fight.

billionaire
04-28-2009, 03:31 PM
And you say due to him having 11 draws makes him weak, lots of ATG fighters have draws on there record etc Carlos Monzon(9), Archie Moore(11), Henry Armstrong(11) and many more great fighters have been held to draws over the years, but it dosen't make them ''weak''

dude archie moore and armstrong fought something like 200 times lol, monzon most draws came early in his career.....i never said dempsey wasnt good or had bad technique, just hes overrated especially his title reign...

them_apples
04-28-2009, 03:43 PM
i used to get taught he was great but when you look at it he really isnt.....11 draws = weak

all he did was beat down big goofy white guys with 2 left feet....he gets respect because he was a lil guy and was exciting but other than that hes nothing special.......the one time he fought a black guy it was a bum journeyman who was 20-10 or something and it was a tie thats how bad he was.......

he milked his championship for all he got, he barely even fought at all, forget harry wills......

about the long count - if he was such a great stalker he wouldve put tunney on his ass again, instead he got put on his ass the next round........thats on jermaine taylors level

joe louis would smoke that fool

He was fun to watch but he doesn't crack my ATG hw list that's for sure.

Southpaw16BF
04-28-2009, 04:35 PM
dude archie moore and armstrong fought something like 200 times lol, monzon most draws came early in his career.....i never said dempsey wasnt good or had bad technique, just hes overrated especially his title reign...

No you claimed i used to get taught he was great but when you look at it he really isnt.....11 draws = weak

So this is the post you stated due to Dempsey having 11 draws makes him weak? And I stated lots of ATG fighters have had draws over the years.

And I also explained this was common in the old school era, here what I stated

They need to understand things such as fixed fights, carrying your opponet, newpaper decision's, draws etc, were all very common back in certain era's. And no offence to the person who started this thread, I don't think you no much about the history deparment in boxing, with all due respect.

cotto16
04-28-2009, 04:50 PM
Thank you Stinger: You beat me too it :fing02: I would also point out that Mike Tyson patterened himself on Jack Dempsey, considered Dempsey his hero. One would think with the worship that Tyson gets around here that people would be more respectful of the fighter Tyson admired over all others.

Poet

Never mind jack dempey or tyson when are you gonna give the klitchko's some respect

Ziggy Stardust
04-28-2009, 05:18 PM
Never mind jack dempey or tyson when are you gonna give the klitchko's some respect

When they earn it, which in Wlad's case means never since he's crap. Vitali already has some of my respect.....as a near great. He's not an ATG and will not garner the kind of respect I give ATGs. As a near-great he gets the respect from me his status merits. Wlad gets the kind of respect HIS status merits as well: Which is none.

Poet

cotto16
04-28-2009, 05:25 PM
When they earn it, which in Wlad's case means never since he's crap. Vitali already has some of my respect.....as a near great. He's not an ATG and will not garner the kind of respect I give ATGs. As a near-great he gets the respect from me his status merits. Wlad gets the kind of respect HIS status merits as well: Which is none.

Poet

do ya ****in respect bobby czyz, is he good enough for your almighty respect!!!!!!!!

Ziggy Stardust
04-28-2009, 05:31 PM
do ya ****in respect bobby czyz, is he good enough for your almighty respect!!!!!!!!

I happen to like Bobby Czyz. He isn't an ATG so I don't give him the accolades I would an ATG, but if you're trying to get me to say something bad about him it ain't gonna happen.

Poet

GJC
04-28-2009, 07:23 PM
One thing that confuses me about these forums is that a boxer will be bought up and before too long we move onto Mayweather RJJ or the Klitschko brothers. It does seem that some find it impossible to talk about boxing generally for very long before throwing them into the mix. I would not think to bring up Willie Pep into a discussion about the Klitschkos saying they are more ponderous than he was simply because it is apples and oranges.

Ziggy Stardust
04-28-2009, 07:50 PM
One thing that confuses me about these forums is that a boxer will be bought up and before too long we move onto Mayweather RJJ or the Klitschko brothers. It does seem that some find it impossible to talk about boxing generally for very long before throwing them into the mix. I would not think to bring up Willie Pep into a discussion about the Klitschkos saying they are more ponderous than he was simply because it is apples and oranges.

Unfortunately to some boxing IS all about the Klitchkos. Or Mayweather. Or Cotto. Or Margarito, Calzaghe, ect. ect. ect. In a way it seems to be a systemic tunnel vision among some posters, ie. if the conversation in no way involves their favorite fighter they have to try and steer the discussion to where it does. It's kind of a narcissism by proxy: The world revolves around whichever fighter they nuthug.

Poet

Dave Rado
04-28-2009, 07:58 PM
The world revolves around whichever fighter they nuthug.

Poet

Or whichever fighters they hate.

Ziggy Stardust
04-28-2009, 08:02 PM
Or whichever fighters they hate.

Good point! Reference any post by LRR: He's incapable of making one without taking shots at Ali :rofl:

Poet

Dave Rado
04-28-2009, 08:18 PM
.When Dempsey fought Gene Tunney the second time a fighter who was in his prime, by many boxing experts Dempsey should of been the winner due the famous long count, in which Tunney was belived to of been down 14 seconds.

Great post overall but I think the above is very unfair to Tunney. Tunney's job was not to look at his stopwatch, it was to look at the referee, and to beat the referee's count. If the referee had not delayed the count, there is no evidence that Tunney would not have beaten it - he got up when he had to, and he probably would have done so under a normal count. And the referee was within his rights to delay the count until Dempsey went into a neutral corner. It was a brand new rule, and Dempsey just forgot all about it in the heat of battle, which was unfortunate, but it was his own fault for forgetting.

JAB5239
04-28-2009, 08:23 PM
Great post overall but I think the above is very unfair to Tunney. Tunney's job was not to look at his stopwatch, it was to look at the referee, and to beat the referee's count. If the referee had not delayed the count, there is no evidence that Tunney would not have beaten it - he got up when he had to, and he probably would have done so under a normal count. And the referee was within his rights to delay the count until Dempsey went into a neutral corner. It was a brand new rule, and Dempsey just forgot all about it in the heat of battle, which was unfortunate, but it was his own fault for forgetting.

Good post Dave.

That rule was actually asked for by Dempsey to be implemented before this fight. Till then there had never been a "nuetral corner" rule for knockdowns.

Ziggy Stardust
04-28-2009, 08:39 PM
Good post Dave.

That rule was actually asked for by Dempsey to be implemented before this fight. Till then there had never been a "nuetral corner" rule for knockdowns.

Only count that matters is the refs. If Dempsey gave Tunney extra time to recover than that's his own damn fault.

Poet

PlasticFlamingo
04-28-2009, 08:54 PM
i used to get taught he was great but when you look at it he really isnt.....11 draws = weak

all he did was beat down big goofy white guys with 2 left feet....he gets respect because he was a lil guy and was exciting but other than that hes nothing special.......the one time he fought a black guy it was a bum journeyman who was 20-10 or something and it was a tie thats how bad he was.......

he milked his championship for all he got, he barely even fought at all, forget harry wills......

about the long count - if he was such a great stalker he wouldve put tunney on his ass again, instead he got put on his ass the next round........thats on jermaine taylors level

joe louis would smoke that fool

I have to agree, its not only the draws and the weak opossition, he was a very protected fighter as well. Firpo should have won the championship after knocking him outside the ring, but the referee saved him with an slow count. Some of his draws may have been losses in today's boxing scene, but the press loved Dempsey. Its not that he wasn't good, its just that he wasn't as great as advertised. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Bellows_George_Dempsey_and_Firpo_1924.jpg

GJC
04-29-2009, 03:33 PM
Good post Dave.

That rule was actually asked for by Dempsey to be implemented before this fight. Till then there had never been a "nuetral corner" rule for knockdowns.
Didn't know Dempsey requested it. I did hear once that Tunney said he would have beaten the count, however he thought that Dempsey would have finished him off had he have done. All good fighters listen for the ref and use up every second they can.

GJC
04-29-2009, 03:37 PM
I have to agree, its not only the draws and the weak opossition, he was a very protected fighter as well. Firpo should have won the championship after knocking him outside the ring, but the referee saved him with an slow count. Some of his draws may have been losses in today's boxing scene, but the press loved Dempsey. Its not that he wasn't good, its just that he wasn't as great as advertised. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Bellows_George_Dempsey_and_Firpo_1924.jpg
Not sure he was loved by the press remember he was called a slacker during the war. Do think he was one of the first boxers to transcend the sport as Ali, Louis and Tyson did. Dempsey became more popular after he retired, the long count helped with that.
As for the Firpo count think you could make a better case for him being helped back into the ring than a long count. Lot of rewritting of history goes on in these forums I am noticing :)

Kid McCoy
04-29-2009, 03:48 PM
As for the Firpo count think you could make a better case for him being helped back into the ring than a long count. Lot of rewritting of history goes on in these forums I am noticing :)

The Firpo knockdown looked more like a push to me. In any case, a fighter knocked through the ropes has 20 seconds to re-enter the ring, albeit unaided.

TheGreatA
04-29-2009, 03:53 PM
Here's a newspaper account of one of those "draws":

Oakland Tribune, 1917-08-11:

“Willie Meehan got a draw with Jack Dempsey at Dreamland last night, but Willie and Billy Snailham, the referee, were about the only people who saw it that way. For Dempsey hit all the punches of the bout that did any damage. Meehan’s whirling slaps made a lot of noise and made him look as though he were doing something, but that is about as close as he came to doing anything in the way of holding his own with Dempsey.

“Meehan resorted to his old time clown tactics but they did not buy him anything. About all they did was to keep the minds of the spectators off Meehan’s fat stomach. About ten seconds before the final gong, Dempsey brought home a right upper cut that came close to finishing Meehan and the gong was about all that saved him from dropping before the limit.”

Many of these fights may have been pre-arranged draws, which means that in case that the fight goes the distance, no official winner will be announced regardless of who looked better at the end. BoxRec.com often goes by newspaper reports but it's possible that no reports of these particular fights were found so they are listed as draws on Dempsey's record.

For example the Tommy Loughran fight was listed as a win for Tunney for years until a conflicting report was found. At first it was actually changed to a loss for Tunney but now it's a no contest.

BoxRec is definitely not the place to get all of your boxing knowledge from, which is why the site states that "data may be incomplete and/or inaccurate".

Southpaw16BF
04-29-2009, 04:25 PM
Here's a newspaper account of one of those "draws":

Oakland Tribune, 1917-08-11:

***8220;Willie Meehan got a draw with Jack Dempsey at Dreamland last night, but Willie and Billy Snailham, the referee, were about the only people who saw it that way. For Dempsey hit all the punches of the bout that did any damage. Meehan***8217;s whirling slaps made a lot of noise and made him look as though he were doing something, but that is about as close as he came to doing anything in the way of holding his own with Dempsey.

***8220;Meehan resorted to his old time clown tactics but they did not buy him anything. About all they did was to keep the minds of the spectators off Meehan***8217;s fat stomach. About ten seconds before the final gong, Dempsey brought home a right upper cut that came close to finishing Meehan and the gong was about all that saved him from dropping before the limit.***8221;

Many of these fights may have been pre-arranged draws, which means that in case that the fight goes the distance, no official winner will be announced regardless of who looked better at the end. BoxRec.com often goes by newspaper reports but it's possible that no reports of these particular fights were found so they are listed as draws on Dempsey's record.

For example the Tommy Loughran fight was listed as a win for Tunney for years until a conflicting report was found. At first it was actually changed to a loss for Tunney but now it's a no contest.

[QUOTE]BoxRec is definitely not the place to get all of your boxing knowledge from, which is why the site states that "data may be incomplete and/or inaccurate

Agreed, some boxing fans just assume BoxRec is fact, they are inaccurate about a lot of things, especailly in many era's down the line.

joseph5620
04-29-2009, 04:55 PM
.When Dempsey fought Gene Tunney the second time a fighter who was in his prime, by many boxing experts Dempsey should of been the winner due the famous long count, in which Tunney was belived to of been down 14 seconds.


I've always disagreed with that. Tunney was clear headed enough to get up before the count of 10. It wasn't like Tunney struggled to get up. Looking at the film shows that. He just took advantage of the long count because he was watching the referee count and he had every right to do that. I will never believe that it made a difference in the outcome.

JAB5239
04-30-2009, 04:12 AM
.When Dempsey fought Gene Tunney the second time a fighter who was in his prime, by many boxing experts Dempsey should of been the winner due the famous long count, in which Tunney was belived to of been down 14 seconds.


I've always disagreed with that. Tunney was clear headed enough to get up before the count of 10. It wasn't like Tunney struggled to get up. Looking at the film shows that. He just took advantage of the long count because he was watching the referee count and he had every right to do that. I will never believe that it made a difference in the outcome.

A fighter can only go by the refs count. Tunney did this, same as Douglas vs Tyson.

Now.....had Dempsey not called for the nuetral corner rule before the fight....maybe things are different. As it is..Tunney beat the count fair and square.

Dave Rado
04-30-2009, 05:23 AM
A fighter can only go by the refs count. Tunney did this, same as Douglas vs Tyson.

Off topic, but that raises questions about the Ali-Liston rematch though. :)

TheGreatA
04-30-2009, 06:42 AM
The problem a lot of people had with the second Tunney-Dempsey fight was that when Tunney knocked Dempsey down, the referee did not force Tunney to go to a neutral corner but instead allowed him to stand right over Dempsey and continue fighting as soon as Dempsey got up.

Southpaw16BF
04-30-2009, 12:45 PM
.When Dempsey fought Gene Tunney the second time a fighter who was in his prime, by many boxing experts Dempsey should of been the winner due the famous long count, in which Tunney was belived to of been down 14 seconds.


I've always disagreed with that. Tunney was clear headed enough to get up before the count of 10. It wasn't like Tunney struggled to get up. Looking at the film shows that. He just took advantage of the long count because he was watching the referee count and he had every right to do that. I will never believe that it made a difference in the outcome.

He may have looked clear headed, but that isn't fact. And there may have been a good chance if Dempsey had got back to a nuetral corner, straight away, Tunney may have not made it back to his feet......

joseph5620
04-30-2009, 02:08 PM
[QUOTE=Southpaw16bf;5177477]He may have looked clear headed, but that isn't fact.


And what evidence do you have that it wasn't "fact"? Tunney was clear headed enough to follow the referee's count and get up. That is "fact"

joseph5620
04-30-2009, 02:09 PM
The problem a lot of people had with the second Tunney-Dempsey fight was that when Tunney knocked Dempsey down, the referee did not force Tunney to go to a neutral corner but instead allowed him to stand right over Dempsey and continue fighting as soon as Dempsey got up.

That's is a legitimate gripe. The other one is not.

Southpaw16BF
04-30-2009, 02:16 PM
[QUOTE=Southpaw16bf;5177477]He may have looked clear headed, but that isn't fact.


And what evidence do you have that it wasn't "fact"? Tunney was clear headed enough to follow the referee's count and get up. That is "fact"

And was evindence do you have that it is fact? Because he was looking at the ref, while the ref was counting? I belive when the ref was telling Dempsey to go back to his corner, this give Tunney alot of time to regain his senses and come around, it would of been very interesting to see the ref just count staright away.....

JAB5239
04-30-2009, 06:41 PM
Off topic, but that raises questions about the Ali-Liston rematch though. :)

This is just my opinion, but I've felt for some time that that was a poor stoppage that Walcott mishandled. The count wouldn't have been nearly that long had Ali gone to a nuetral corner. Can't blame Liston for that. That said...I think Sonny laid down in this fight. He legitimatley got caught, but looking at the tape I think he could have gotten up but knew he couldn't win.

res
04-30-2009, 10:57 PM
This is just my opinion, but I've felt for some time that that was a poor stoppage that Walcott mishandled. The count wouldn't have been nearly that long had Ali gone to a nuetral corner. Can't blame Liston for that. That said...I think Sonny laid down in this fight. He legitimatley got caught, but looking at the tape I think he could have gotten up but knew he couldn't win.

and what the *blank* was going on after he got up?

Ali just leaps on Liston and starts pounding with no fear, and Liston just covers up?!

That fight has always seemed to me like the whole thing was planned, never been able to understand it.

Jim Jeffries
05-01-2009, 12:26 AM
Off topic, but that raises questions about the Ali-Liston rematch though. :)

Every time I watch that I see Liston starting to get up, Ali rushing at him, and Liston laying back down. If Ali was forced to go to a neutral corner, I believe Liston would've gotten up, though how much good it would've done him, I'm not sure.

And how is Dempsey overrated when he has completely disappeared from the top 10 ATG HW lists?

Dave Rado
05-01-2009, 04:37 AM
And how is Dempsey overrated when he has completely disappeared from the top 10 ATG HW lists?

Bert Sugar's top 10 ATGs published 2006: (http://uk.gamespot.com/users/jsmoke03/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=m-100-24871522&print=1)

1 Sugar Ray Robinson
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Willie Pep
4 Joe Louis
5 Harry Greb
6 Benny Leonard
7 Muhammad Ali
8 Roberto Duran
9 Jack Dempsey
10 Jack Johnson



ESPN's top 10 ATGs published 2007 (http://boxing.about.com/od/history/a/50_greatest.htm):

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Louis
5. Willie Pep
6. Roberto Duran
7. Benny Leonard
8. Jack Johnson
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Sam Langford

TheGreatA
05-01-2009, 07:51 AM
Liston always said that he stayed down because he legitimately thought Ali was crazy and tried to hit him while he was getting up.

I've always kind of believed his side of the story because Ali went to great lengths to convince Liston that he was out of his mind.

LondonRingRules
05-01-2009, 07:52 AM
Bert Sugar's top 10 ATGs published 2006: (http://uk.gamespot.com/users/jsmoke03/show_blog_entry.php?topic_id=m-100-24871522&print=1)

1 Sugar Ray Robinson
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Willie Pep
4 Joe Louis
5 Harry Greb
6 Benny Leonard
7 Muhammad Ali
8 Roberto Duran
9 Jack Dempsey
10 Jack Johnson


** Ol' Bert, his lists change almost as much as the poor dears here who are always going on about Dempsey or fill in the blank being overrated without providing a current rating.

10 yrs ago, I believe Bert had Jack as his number one pick. At any rate, Dempsey, Langford, Louis, Ali, Tunney, and sometimes Rocky the only heavies who generally make all time p4p lists which means they are generally accorded a very great status as heavy.

Insecure dears needing some order in their disarranged lives make lineal lists as if greatness was spare change that could be counted up and get quite upset when their count is disputed.........:cool::cool3:

TheGreatA
05-01-2009, 08:21 AM
"Clay caught me cold and the count was messed up, and that's all they was to it," he said. "Clay knocked me down with a good punch. Anybody can get caught cold in the first round, before you even work up a sweat. And when I was down, Clay stood right over me. No, I never blacked out, not for a second. But I wasn't gonna get up, either, not with him standin' over me. See, you can't get up without puttin' one hand on the floor, and so I couldn't protect myself, and he can hit me on the way up.

"So there was Walcott [Referee Jersey Joe Walcott] and Clay wrasslin' over me and Walcott finally got him to a corner or somethin', and then I got up and Clay come back and we started back to fightin' again.

"And Nat Fletcher [ Nat Fleischer, editor of The Ring Magazine] began wavin' his arms at ringside and Walcott stopped the fight. Nowadays Nat Fletcher says he was just callin' Walcott over to tell him that the timekeeper wanted to see him or somethin', but other people says it was Nat Fletcher stopped the fight.

"I was never counted out. I coulda got up even right after I was hit. And I still felt pretty good when I did get up. I mean I could still go on. What Walcott shoulda done, he shoulda sent Cassius to a neutral corner. When the referees call you out in the center of the ring before a fight, they tells you that: go to a neutral corner. And that's when they count you out, not with no fighter standin' right over you.

"They shouldn't have fighters refereein' no fights no way," Sonny added, now back in his horizontal position. "They should have people that don't get excited."

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1081166/6/index.htm

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2009, 08:34 AM
http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1081166/6/index.htm

Manchine you did it again: GREAT find! :hail:

Poet

GJC
05-01-2009, 02:39 PM
Liston always said that he stayed down because he legitimately thought Ali was crazy and tried to hit him while he was getting up.

I've always kind of believed his side of the story because Ali went to great lengths to convince Liston that he was out of his mind.
I always remember Terry Downes (MW) quote when co-comentating on UK radio re the phantom punch.
"**** me Eamon I hit me old lady harder then that"

Southpaw16BF
05-01-2009, 02:53 PM
Would of always liked to of seen Dempsey fight Harry Willis and most of all Harry Greb, who he avoided like the plague.

At one time Dempsey's Mindset was he wanted to retire as the undefeated Champion, he never wanted to lose his Title in the ring, this being the reason he didn't want to fight the best out there.

He wanted to take fights he knew he could win, Demspey thought if he retired champion, this would make alot of money when he retires as he will be a icon, but if he lost the Title in the ring, and retired without being champion, he thought he wouldn't make as much money in later age or be as recongized...

Do Dempsey did fight some very good fighters, and it never did work out retiring as Champion.

LondonRingRules
05-01-2009, 03:06 PM
Would of always liked to of seen Dempsey fight Harry Willis and most of all Harry Greb, who he avoided like the plague.


** You obviously know very little of Dempsey.

Everyone wished the Wills fight came off. Wills got paid for it. Dempsey didn't. Not Jack's fault.

Greb? If I hear one more crack about this little fella being any more than a sparring partner for about 6 rounds, I think I might conjure up his ghost to crack on.

Dempsey did not control his destiny until stepping into the ring. Doc Kearns and Tex Rickard assigned his fights, and then Jack did his job.

Now, Rickard offered Wills a shot at Tunney in an elimination to face Dempsey. Both turned it down, but supposedly Tunney did an about face and was willing. Who knows, but this is Tunney's account, not Wills.

Regardless, Tunney fought Gibbons instead and earned his shot. Wills had another shot at Tunney as champ, but lost to Sharkey who was then KOed by Jack for the Tunney rematch.

Guess they were all "ducking" Greb.

Southpaw16BF
05-01-2009, 03:36 PM
** You obviously know very little of Dempsey.

Everyone wished the Wills fight came off. Wills got paid for it. Dempsey didn't. Not Jack's fault.

Greb? If I hear one more crack about this little fella being any more than a sparring partner for about 6 rounds, I think I might conjure up his ghost to crack on.

Dempsey did not control his destiny until stepping into the ring. Doc Kearns and Tex Rickard assigned his fights, and then Jack did his job.

Now, Rickard offered Wills a shot at Tunney in an elimination to face Dempsey. Both turned it down, but supposedly Tunney did an about face and was willing. Who knows, but this is Tunney's account, not Wills.

Regardless, Tunney fought Gibbons instead and earned his shot. Wills had another shot at Tunney as champ, but lost to Sharkey who was then KOed by Jack for the Tunney rematch.

Guess they were all "ducking" Greb.

You are indeed wrong, A Harry Greb and Dempsey fight was on and everyone had agreed to it, and the only person needing to accept was Dempsey, and he rejected.

Greb was calling out Dempsey even when he wasn't Champion in 1919, But Dempsey just wound't accept his offer, he chose to Battling Levinsky instead, a man Greb had just defeated. Greb would defeat many of opponets, and then them opponets such as Tommy Gibbons and Battling Levinsky would go on to fight Dempsey.

After Dempsey won the Title, most newspapers were calling for this fight to be made.

They had many of proposed fights, on July 21 1919, a headline read ''Greb Dempsey fight probabale, two promoters offer purses. The proposed fight was due to take place on labour day, the fight was to be a 10 round fight, lots of promoters were lining up to set this fight up.


Greb wanted the fight so much, beliving there was no dout he could beat Dempsey.At this time no heavyweight had defeated Greb, Greb was destroying heavyweights. When Greb and his manager Red Mason were asked about the fight, Mason said Greb is more than willing, he is asking for the bout, Mason said it's all up to Dempsey.

The Pittsburgh post wrote ''So its up to Dempsey. and its going to be difficlut for Dempsey to say ''go get a reputation to Greb, as Greb has licked just as many heavyweights as Dempsey.

Dempsey would then enter talks win Bill Brennan. A man Greb had already defeated. Greb had beaten Brennan in Feb/March time, and you think Dempsey would of wanted to fight the conqueror in these fights, Dempsey chose to fight the loser. After dempsey defeated Brennan, Brennan would go onto say there is no dout in his mind Greb would defeat Demspey.

The botom line is the reason a Harry Greb and Jack Dempsey fight never took place was because Dempsey never wanted it, go and read Fearless Harry Greb for prove.....

In 1953 in a sports magazine, there was a article on the subject of how Dempsey just refuses to fight Greb, written by author Bill Stern ''The Man Dempsey wound't fight''

And you say ''If I hear one more crack about this little fella being any more than a sparring partner for about 6 rounds''

Talk about disrepect, this little fella you say....Greb was beating all the best heavyweights in the world, and this little fella you say, split Dempseys left eye open, and in the first spar, Dempsey said he will have to call it a day.

The crowd who were watching, all loved Greb, Greb was said to look as strong as a young bull. And after a few more sparring sessions, that Greb also got the better of, Demspey just didn't want to know.

Hey, Greb even use to say to Dempsey,to his face, when you gonna fight me you bum''

So don't make out like, no one was avoiding Greb, and it was all Kearns. No it was ''DEMPSEY'' who was avoiding him. And to be honest it sounded to me like you don't think that highly of Greb, well Mr. LRR, I think you need to go and do your research on the great Harry Greb or buy his book......at least.

And no Tunney was not ducking Greb, as they eventually fought ......

And Harry Willis once seen Greb in action, as he was sitting at ringside, this was Greb past his prime. And Willis was speachless, as he cound't belive how good and fast Greb was........so I don't think he ever really would of wanted a showdown with Greb either.

GJC
05-01-2009, 08:34 PM
I know it was always mentioned that Harry Greb gave Dempsey murders sparring. Not 100% sure that Dempsey avoided Greb although I wouldn't argue against Southpaw 16bf's research. I would ask though, is the research mainly from pro Greb sources such as his book? I may be cynical but books can be as slanted as some posters on here.
Like I said I would bow to your obviously greater research but just put in that as food for thought. I am a big fan of both fighters so have no real axe to grind either way.

LondonRingRules
05-01-2009, 09:03 PM
You are indeed wrong, A Harry Greb and Dempsey fight was on and everyone had agreed to it, and the only person needing to accept was Dempsey, and he rejected.

** My little friend, again, Doc Kearns and Rickard guided Dempsey. Dempsey had no say so until he left Kearns and Rickard, signed to fight Wills, had the fight fall out, and ended up in Hollywood.

I don't doubt that Greb was "calling out" Dempsey, but that's no different from Toney calling out the Klitschkos after a miserable heavy record or untold dozens of heavys calling out the champ in any era.

The wins you cite for Greb were newspaper wins, hardly official wins in the day. Kid Norfolk also wanted Dempsey sweepstakes as did many others.

At any rate, when Jack stepped into the ring from the stage, it was the deserving Tunney waiting for him, though most would prefer to see Wills.

Southpaw16BF
05-01-2009, 09:21 PM
** My little friend, again, Doc Kearns and Rickard guided Dempsey. Dempsey had no say so until he left Kearns and Rickard, signed to fight Wills, had the fight fall out, and ended up in Hollywood.

I don't doubt that Greb was "calling out" Dempsey, but that's no different from Toney calling out the Klitschkos after a miserable heavy record or untold dozens of heavys calling out the champ in any era.

The wins you cite for Greb were newspaper wins, hardly official wins in the day. Kid Norfolk also wanted Dempsey sweepstakes as did many others.

At any rate, when Jack stepped into the ring from the stage, it was the deserving Tunney waiting for him, though most would prefer to see Wills.

No once again my little frind you are wrong. You say Greb calling out Dempsey is no different than Toney calling out the Klitschkos brothers.

What! There's a HUGE diiference, Greb is actually beating all the top heavyweight contenders. Do you see Ring Magzine's today saying Toney Wlad needs to happen is this a fight the fans want to see? No it isn't.

Newspapers and boxing writers all wanted to see a Greb Dempsey showdwon, but Dempsey didn't want to know.

Unlike James Toney, Greb is beating all the top contenders in the heavyweight division in convincing fashion. And Greb would defeat heavyweights who would the go on to fight Demspey. After Greb had beat them.

Toney is not even beating contenders no more. What a silly remark by you!

And I really think you lack in Harry Greb knowlodge because by the sounds of it you don't really know much about him. You say ''I don't doubt that Greb was "calling out Demspey''

Are you insane? Greb was permantlly calling out Demspey, thats all he ever did.....As I said he would say to Demspey when are you going to fight me you bum''

And you say ''The wins you cite for Greb were newspaper wins, hardly official wins in the day'' Another bogus comment by you, I've read virtually every newspaper reports of Grebs fights, and in the reports he was domianting the heavyweights and easily getting the decision's.

And you also say ''Kid Norfolk also wanted Dempsey sweepstakes as did many others''. Alot of fighters wanted Dempsey indeed, but Greb was the most deserving, because he was beating everyone put him front of him, you do know Greb beat Kid Norfolk. Aswell as all the top heavyweight contenders, who would go on to get chances at Demepsey after Greb had beat them

As I said you should go and read Fearless Harry Greb or research about Greb, as you really lack knowlodge of him and his career aswell as the Dempsey feud. You will learn alot.

JAB5239
05-02-2009, 04:24 AM
At any rate, when Jack stepped into the ring from the stage, it was the deserving Tunney waiting for him, though most would prefer to see Wills.

Tunney was indeed deserving, but so was Wills who was relegated to the sidelines for years as the #1 contender. I think Dempsey would have beaten him, but Harry deserved his shot as much as any heavy in history. Jmo.

GJC
05-02-2009, 09:09 AM
Tunney was indeed deserving, but so was Wills who was relegated to the sidelines for years as the #1 contender. I think Dempsey would have beaten him, but Harry deserved his shot as much as any heavy in history. Jmo.
Yes I agree would have loved to have seen that fight happen and yes I think Dempsey would win. That was a fight that I believe Rickard killed because of all the history of racial problems the Jeffries v Johnson fight he had been involved in.

Lacrimosa
05-10-2009, 10:45 AM
Indeed, some posters need to understand when you see lots of losses and draws on the old school fighter's such as Dempsey Langford etc.

***

Therefore in the record books, you will see ND6, which means a newspaper decision fight sceduled for six rounds.

All above said should make Genne Tunney`s record even more impressive :)

Flicker Jab
05-10-2009, 11:01 AM
Dempsey was much more than a brawler.

Dempsey's mother had a visit from a traveling salesman one day. At this time, Dempsey was just a baby. The salesman was selling biographies of John L Sullivan. She purchased one, and read it aloud to her babe-in-arms, in hopes of a better life for her son. At the age of fifteen, Jack had left school. Raised in the hobo camps of the west, he found work in one of the many mines marking the topography of the state. He worked there for a little while, until a camp bully threw dirt in his face. He answered in the only manner he could; with his fists, tools that would soon become famous in another trade.

After that, he found work on the docks. After a long day, he walked into a nearby saloon, looking for a mug of ale to quench his thirst. He noticed a smaller man, being beset by two large bruisers.. They were bearing down on this little guy and Jack, being a natural peacemaker, dispatched both of them, each with one punch.

The man he saved was Jack "Doc" Kearns, he had found a friend and a manager. Together, this tandem would blaze a searing path across the west, stepping over the prone bodies of heavyweights all the way to the title. Starting with Dempsey's first recorded fight, against One Punch Han**** in Salt Lake City, whom he prophetically dispatched with the first left hook he ever threw in the squared circle.


Dempsey fought limited opposition and it was not his fault. Blacks weren't allowed to box back then, at all, and fighting for a title, much less the heavyweight championship of the world was very unlikely. If you don't believe me, look it up. Johnson learned how to box on something called The Chitlin Circuit (no bull****) and this was a boxing ring where 4-8 black guys would enter, blindfolded, and beat the **** out of each other. Whoever was standing at the end, was teh winner. Johnson emerged as the Chitlin Circuit Champion and that is how he began gaining recognition as a boxer.

Flicker Jab
05-10-2009, 11:05 AM
Dempsey was much more than a brawler.

You are indeed wrong, A Harry Greb and Dempsey fight was on and everyone had agreed to it, and the only person needing to accept was Dempsey, and he rejected.

Greb was calling out Dempsey even when he wasn't Champion in 1919, But Dempsey just wound't accept his offer, he chose to Battling Levinsky instead, a man Greb had just defeated. Greb would defeat many of opponets, and then them opponets such as Tommy Gibbons and Battling Levinsky would go on to fight Dempsey.

After Dempsey won the Title, most newspapers were calling for this fight to be made.

They had many of proposed fights, on July 21 1919, a headline read ''Greb Dempsey fight probabale, two promoters offer purses. The proposed fight was due to take place on labour day, the fight was to be a 10 round fight, lots of promoters were lining up to set this fight up.


Greb wanted the fight so much, beliving there was no dout he could beat Dempsey.At this time no heavyweight had defeated Greb, Greb was destroying heavyweights. When Greb and his manager Red Mason were asked about the fight, Mason said Greb is more than willing, he is asking for the bout, Mason said it's all up to Dempsey.

The Pittsburgh post wrote ''So its up to Dempsey. and its going to be difficlut for Dempsey to say ''go get a reputation to Greb, as Greb has licked just as many heavyweights as Dempsey.

Dempsey would then enter talks win Bill Brennan. A man Greb had already defeated. Greb had beaten Brennan in Feb/March time, and you think Dempsey would of wanted to fight the conqueror in these fights, Dempsey chose to fight the loser. After dempsey defeated Brennan, Brennan would go onto say there is no dout in his mind Greb would defeat Demspey.

The botom line is the reason a Harry Greb and Jack Dempsey fight never took place was because Dempsey never wanted it, go and read Fearless Harry Greb for prove.....

In 1953 in a sports magazine, there was a article on the subject of how Dempsey just refuses to fight Greb, written by author Bill Stern ''The Man Dempsey wound't fight''

And you say ''If I hear one more crack about this little fella being any more than a sparring partner for about 6 rounds''

Talk about disrepect, this little fella you say....Greb was beating all the best heavyweights in the world, and this little fella you say, split Dempseys left eye open, and in the first spar, Dempsey said he will have to call it a day.

The crowd who were watching, all loved Greb, Greb was said to look as strong as a young bull. And after a few more sparring sessions, that Greb also got the better of, Demspey just didn't want to know.

Hey, Greb even use to say to Dempsey,to his face, when you gonna fight me you bum''

So don't make out like, no one was avoiding Greb, and it was all Kearns. No it was ''DEMPSEY'' who was avoiding him. And to be honest it sounded to me like you don't think that highly of Greb, well Mr. LRR, I think you need to go and do your research on the great Harry Greb or buy his book......at least.

And no Tunney was not ducking Greb, as they eventually fought ......

And Harry Willis once seen Greb in action, as he was sitting at ringside, this was Greb past his prime. And Willis was speachless, as he cound't belive how good and fast Greb was........so I don't think he ever really would of wanted a showdown with Greb either.


do you think tyson ducked an old george foreman?

Flicker Jab
05-10-2009, 11:07 AM
I wish there was more footage of greb, other than him sparring with Philadalphia Jack