View Full Version : Wladimir Klitschko


Joey Giardello
04-26-2009, 10:29 PM
Why doesnt klitschko get the same respect as former great fighters who were saftey first, had defence and always wasnt great to watch, such as jack johnson and gene tunney, tommy loughran, maxie rosenbloom. Wladimir has never avoided no one and is the true art of boxing hit and not be hit. After he shuts haye up i think he will get his due respect as a truly great fighter. On a side note how can bert sugar give this man no respect when he ranks fighters as maxi rosenbloom so high who got the nick name slapsie maxi cos he didnt want to commit to a puch so he would just slap or paw his punches. Bert is full of bull ****!

Ziggy Stardust
04-26-2009, 11:43 PM
Why doesnt klitschko get the same respect as former great fighters who were saftey first, had defence and always wasnt great to watch, such as jack johnson and gene tunney, tommy loughran, maxie rosenbloom. Wladimir has never avoided no one and is the true art of boxing hit and not be hit. After he shuts haye up i think he will get his due respect as a truly great fighter. On a side note how can bert sugar give this man no respect when he ranks fighters as maxi rosenbloom so high who got the nick name slapsie maxi cos he didnt want to commit to a puch so he would just slap or paw his punches. Bert is full of bull ****!

Wlad doesn't get respect because he was KTFO by Ross Purrity of all people.

Poet

JAB5239
04-27-2009, 05:46 AM
Wlad doesn't get respect because he was KTFO by Ross Purrity of all people.

Poet

I half heartedly agree with my friend Poet. His loss to Purrity came when he was younger and his inexperience ruled that particular fight. But his losses to Brewster and Sanders were pretty devastating whe looking at his career as a whole, and his wins, while being mostly dominant, have been pretty lackluster overall and against a very weak crop of fighter.

Wlad has skills, but many times he looks afraid to engage and I believe that takes away from his appeal, thusfore he does't get the respect some think he deserves. Add to that his rather dull personality and I think that is why his career is ridiculed by some.

Myself, I think him and Vitaly are the two best heavyweights out there. But what does that really say when you look at the rest of the fighters in that division?

Almost every era encounters ridicule. But todays heavies are mostly fat, throw very few punches, gas out easily and are incosistent. Just my opinion of course.

▀ringer
04-27-2009, 06:20 AM
I half heartedly agree with my friend Poet. His loss to Purrity came when he was younger and his inexperience ruled that particular fight. But his losses to Brewster and Sanders were pretty devastating whe looking at his career as a whole, and his wins, while being mostly dominant, have been pretty lackluster overall and against a very weak crop of fighter.

Wlad has skills, but many times he looks afraid to engage and I believe that takes away from his appeal, thusfore he does't get the respect some think he deserves. Add to that his rather dull personality and I think that is why his career is ridiculed by some.

Myself, I think him and Vitaly are the two best heavyweights out there. But what does that really say when you look at the rest of the fighters in that division?

Almost every era encounters ridicule. But todays heavies are mostly fat, throw very few punches, gas out easily and are incosistent. Just my opinion of course.

I concur with JAB and Poet.

It's hard to imagine Wladimir Klitschko being a serious force in a stacked Heavyweight division.

Vitali? Yeah. I could see that. He'd be a tough go for damn near anyone.

Wlad? Not so much.....

LondonRingRules
04-27-2009, 08:27 AM
Wlad has skills, but many times he looks afraid to engage and I believe that takes away from his appeal, thusfore he does't get the respect some think he deserves.

** You talking about Wlad or a prime Ali?

No heavy save Joe Louis and Mike Tyson has ever gotten proper respect in their primes. The accolades start near the end of their careers, build to a peak, decline, and then settle into a range.

Purity loss was less to inexperience and more to being overtrained and over worked without a break, 25th fight in 25 months as a pro in a 12 rounder. His team basically projected the Superman tag on him where he just showed up and they fell in each new serial release.

Once he gets a belt he has to slow down since title fights are harder to negotiate and sign and the opponent base is so much smaller, but he's been a very active champ.

About your perception of his "unwillingness to engage." He is a made fighter, not a natural fighter like his brother and has never learned to fight at mid range or inside save his signature defensive move, the wrap. Typical fans want to see a fight and pick up on this.

There is also the perception that both lack the "killer instinct" in spite of prodigious KO ratios. Their forte is the methodical way they dismantle opponents, but the typical fight fan lacks the attention span to appreciate workman like craftsmanship.

Both very good at controlling pace and distance from outside. Heavies are dismissed for fatness and lack of pace by those shortsighted critics who always fail to see history in the making. The nature of the division has changed because of new regulations, thus changing the nature of the fighter. With the money available to a dynamic champ, plenty of incentive for non-fat, fit fighters to rise to the top, but they have generally proven to be unable to cope over the long haul.

There is also the prejudice against Eastern Europeans, particularly against "Russians," and then the prejudice against "Giants." Willard the first giant can be seen today as being widely disparaged as is Carnera.

In general, most heavy champs until the ABC era were elected to the HOF. Seeing how dominant Wlad and Vitali have been, I suggest that will be true unless there's a dramatic downturn in their careers.

BattlingNelson
04-27-2009, 10:45 AM
Wlad will be higher regarded once his career is over. It's quite common that current champions is rated quite low and it's difficult to gauge the value of a career when it's not finished and one is unaware of future accomplishments of the opponents faced.

GJC
04-27-2009, 03:54 PM
It is true that fighters don't always get the respect they deserve whilst their career is active. Many would say they are getting the respect they deserve at the moment.
I haven't seen anything to make me think that either is going to make the ATG HW list of anyone who is not going to base that list from Tyson onwards.
I do think they are probably the best HWs out there at the moment, sadly.

kenso
04-27-2009, 04:21 PM
i dont think the loss to brewster was legit... it was clear that wlad was very ill. his blood sugar level was like 4x higher than normal after the fight. he destroyed brewster up until the time where he basically fell out. brewster never landed anything clean or devastating, he just threw a ton of punches and got the crowd wild. also wlad avenged that loss with relative ease.

with that said, wlad has shown significant improvement in each fight. hes a fighter that has learned from his losses.

PLATE
04-28-2009, 10:40 PM
Wlad will be higher regarded once his career is over. It's quite common that current champions is rated quite low and it's difficult to gauge the value of a career when it's not finished and one is unaware of future accomplishments of the opponents faced.

Those ridiculous KO losses, coming so early in his career, may not sit well with historians though

BennyST
04-29-2009, 07:01 AM
The Purrity loss and the Brewster loss were because he was poisoned? That's what I was told by Klitschko fans.






:fing02:

BennyST
04-29-2009, 07:06 AM
** You talking about Wlad or a prime Ali?

Just out of curiosity...Have you ever managed to not put a disparaging comment somewhere into your posts about Ali?

It reminds me of Daggum. No matter how completely unrelated the thread and how completely off-topic it is he somehow manages to throw in a little Calzaghe bash throughout. Or he doesn't even go for the subtle approach and just tosses a slinging comment straight into your face.

Weird.

Mersey
04-29-2009, 08:16 AM
Because of the level of competition he has faced and that most people these days cannot name even 1 heavyweight.

LondonRingRules
04-30-2009, 01:41 AM
Just out of curiosity...Have you ever managed to not put a disparaging comment somewhere into your posts about Ali?

It reminds me of Daggum. No matter how completely unrelated the thread and how completely off-topic it is he somehow manages to throw in a little Calzaghe bash throughout. Or he doesn't even go for the subtle approach and just tosses a slinging comment straight into your face.
Weird.

** Dadgumit, I don't know Daggum from Dadburnitall, but I do know right at age 33, Ali was 45-2 with a title record of 11-1 and at the same age Wlad is 52-3, with more KOs than Ali had wins and title record of 13-2.

So when someone brings up boring fighters who were good, naturally, Ali comes to mind as it really wasn't entertaining to see him dismantle ailing Patterson and Williams, a pub doorman like Brian Barley Malt London, or The Lion of Flanders, Coopman, or Richard The Great Dunn, or in life and death struggles with Young, Evangelista and Leon who scarcely made a dent in the rankings before he signed em up.

Given that the greatest had his fair share of dull fights and critics, surely Wlad deserves no less comparison.

But wait, among the true believers, mentioning Ali in the same breath as Wlad constitutes blasphemy!

Hear, hear!!!!!

Hawk O'Connor
04-30-2009, 04:51 AM
** Dadgumit, I don't know Daggum from Dadburnitall, but I do know right at age 33, Ali was 45-2 with a title record of 11-1 and at the same age Wlad is 52-3, with more KOs than Ali had wins and title record of 13-2.

So when someone brings up boring fighters who were good, naturally, Ali comes to mind as it really wasn't entertaining to see him dismantle ailing Patterson and Williams, a pub doorman like Brian Barley Malt London, or The Lion of Flanders, Coopman, or Richard The Great Dunn, or in life and death struggles with Young, Evangelista and Leon who scarcely made a dent in the rankings before he signed em up.

Given that the greatest had his fair share of dull fights and critics, surely Wlad deserves no less comparison.

But wait, among the true believers, mentioning Ali in the same breath as Wlad constitutes blasphemy!

Hear, hear!!!!!


Good grief, just when I think I've seen it all from you you manage to top yourself. Even though I detect abit sarcasm in the above post I have no doubts of the underlying seriousness.

Comparing Wlad's "accomplishments" to Ali in any way is (I hate to use this term again in a description of something you've said but it does fit very well) ludicrous. Now all of us know your personal disdain for the man, and your attempts to discredit him are near legend but give me a break..one won over a prime George Foreman is equal to Wlad's entire career.

One thing I see interesting in your "evaluations" are the exclusion of Wlad's awe inspiring performances against Ross Purity, Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster..I mean if you are going to mention his record at least tell the entire tale...that 3 in the L column is 3 KNOCKOUT losses to has-beens and never weres.

Some of your arguments do hold a minuscule amount of moisture however this one does not.

LondonRingRules
05-01-2009, 08:37 AM
Comparing Wlad's "accomplishments" to Ali in any way is (I hate to use this term again in a description of something you've said but it does fit very well) ludicrous. Now all of us know your personal disdain for the man, and your attempts to discredit him are near legend but give me a break..one won over a prime George Foreman is equal to Wlad's entire career.

** Sorry, but one win over Foreman in a fight where his trainer admits to adjusting the ropes does not a career make.

You poor chaps lack the ability to understand context which is why you are doomed to opinions that have no gravitas and change daily. Foreman was a nice victory that put Ali back in the mix, but Foreman was not yet Foreman the Legend that he made himself in his comeback.

But guess what? Ali begins to crack top 10 lists for the first time after this bout, or did you forget that the typical geniuses(genii) of the day had considered him on the same level as Wlad today, ie, a nothing until Foreman.

The comparisons are apt because both storied Olympic gold medalists, Wlad a superheavy and Ali a light heavy. Both turn pro at a very young age. Ali got a title shot much earlier due to him being seen as an easy mark whereas Wlad and Vitali were avoided by the unified champ due to fighting out of Germany and being such large, dangerous threats.

Lewis was no Sonny Liston and saw no need to face the prime top contenders, the Klitschkos and Byrd, when he had a much bigger legacy bout with a past it Tyson coming to fruition.

Well, Wlad has no Foreman, no Tyson to beat, no legacy bout unless Lewis comes out of retirement, but he has beaten the top guys of his day and one could argue that Peter was considered as a poor man's Foreman. That was a pretty dramatic scrap, more so than Zaire of which 80% of that fight was Ali on the ropes absorbing a pasting by a strangely clumsy Foreman.

If Ali is as good as advertised, one would think his legacy would hold up. I don't see the Klitchkos as a threat to his legacy, but they do give his legacy some context since he is now seen as one of the last of the smaller heavy champs. Hey, Rocky one of the smallest champs ever, and his legacy holds up well, so why the fuss?

Some now pick Lewis as their top all time heavy, so does that threaten you as well? Well, you endured "other" selections to put together your list, and Vitali made the list, so perhaps you just have a hysteric hissy fit any time you think that I challenge one of your cherished notions.

Yeah, that's it..............:cool::cool3:

RightCross94
05-01-2009, 08:54 AM
wlad is not a great fighter, never has been, never will be

Hawk O'Connor
05-01-2009, 12:17 PM
** Sorry, but one win over Foreman in a fight where his trainer admits to adjusting the ropes does not a career make.

You poor chaps lack the ability to understand context which is why you are doomed to opinions that have no gravitas and change daily. Foreman was a nice victory that put Ali back in the mix, but Foreman was not yet Foreman the Legend that he made himself in his comeback.

If I lack the ability to understand context then you certainly lack the ability to be, and to form, effective impartial opinions. Oh sure you claim that your opinions are nonpartisan but one doesn't have to look far to see your arguments that are propped up with an underpinning of contempt.

Regardless, to be so educated and 'wise' you certainly must have missed the gist of Foreman's earlier career. Before he fought Ali he was the most fear fighter on the planet, a two fisted detroyer that was annihilating everyone in his path. It wasn't until after the Ali defeat that the sharp criticism was leveled at Foreman. Sure, Foreman's later career rebuilt (to an extent) what once was, but to totally dismiss Ali's earlier win as merely 'nice' is very misleading.

The entire point is Wlad has never overcome any kind of adversity. He faces adversity and he gets planted under the canvas..furthermore he has to have his brother come behind him and avenge him when he gets starched.

But guess what? Ali begins to crack top 10 lists for the first time after this bout, or did you forget that the typical geniuses(genii) of the day had considered him on the same level as Wlad today, ie, a nothing until Foreman.

Considering that alot of the geniuses of the day were still swayed by Ali's religious background, and draft stance, you should take that with a grain of salt. By the time Ali fought Foreman he had already faced, and defeated, more talent than Wlad could imagine. A legacy is built on doing things no one thinks you can do.... not beating a list of cans and getting KTFO by fighters you are picked to destroy.. not once, but three times. Wlad is good for the times but all-time great? not a chance.

The comparisons are apt because both storied Olympic gold medalists, Wlad a superheavy and Ali a light heavy. Both turn pro at a very young age. Ali got a title shot much earlier due to him being seen as an easy mark whereas Wlad and Vitali were avoided by the unified champ due to fighting out of Germany and being such large, dangerous threats.

The gold medal and the professional start are where the comparisons end. However I would like to point out that you again have pulled the rug out from under your own feet. You mention the Ali-Liston fight.....but fail to mention its a prime example of what made Ali great...overcoming the odds and pulling off something no one thought possible. Wlad can't say the same thing....he not only has never overcome, he has succumbed to lesser fighters on three occasions during his fighting prime and only avenging one of those losses.

Lewis was no Sonny Liston and saw no need to face the prime top contenders, the Klitschkos and Byrd, when he had a much bigger legacy bout with a past it Tyson coming to fruition.

Well, Wlad has no Foreman, no Tyson to beat, no legacy bout unless Lewis comes out of retirement, but he has beaten the top guys of his day and one could argue that Peter was considered as a poor man's Foreman. That was a pretty dramatic scrap, more so than Zaire of which 80% of that fight was Ali on the ropes absorbing a pasting by a strangely clumsy Foreman.

If Ali is as good as advertised, one would think his legacy would hold up. I don't see the Klitchkos as a threat to his legacy, but they do give his legacy some context since he is now seen as one of the last of the smaller heavy champs. Hey, Rocky one of the smallest champs ever, and his legacy holds up well, so why the fuss?

Wow, should I even respond to that? Comparing Wlad/Peter to Foreman/Ali? I think that speaks volumes on its own 'merit' :lame: Regardless, your assertions that Ali's legacy doesn't hold up is, to use a very adequate word, ludicrous. Maybe you missed the point that many of todays top 'experts' have Ali #1 on the ATG heavies list? I mean seeing as how you take past experts opinions as gospel it stands to reason the modern ones hold as much weight.

Ali lends credence to his own legacy my man, the Klitschkos are no threat to him. Never have been, never will be. If anything else they strengthen the position he already has by showing it takes a special person to overcome the many obstacles that Ali faced in the ring.

In the Klitschkos we have 3 losses by brutal beatdown and one loss where one quits on his stool against featherfist Chris Byrd. Quite a list of accomplishments there. Aside from that, if the Klitschkos wanted to 'cement' their legacy they would fight one another instead of taking homoerotic photos together.... but thats never going to happen.

Some now pick Lewis as their top all time heavy, so does that threaten you as well? Well, you endured "other" selections to put together your list, and Vitali made the list, so perhaps you just have a hysteric hissy fit any time you think that I challenge one of your cherished notions.

Yeah, that's it..............:cool::cool3:


I always find it amusing that you can't stick to the fighters at hand...you always have to bring others into the conversation in some capacity. Is that because most of your arguments hold no weight? Oh yeah, I forgot...you are all about context. :bs2:

portuge puncher
05-01-2009, 12:22 PM
ive neva looked forward to one of his fights, boring ass fighter, fighting joke ass bums, thats his legacy

LondonRingRules
05-01-2009, 03:46 PM
......... Wlad has never overcome any kind of adversity. He faces adversity and he gets planted under the canvas..furthermore he has to have his brother come behind him and avenge him when he gets starched.

Considering that alot of the geniuses of the day were still swayed by Ali's religious background, and draft stance, you should take that with a grain of salt. By the time Ali fought Foreman he had already faced, and defeated, more talent than Wlad could imagine. A legacy is built on doing things no one thinks you can do.... not beating a list of cans and getting KTFO by fighters you are picked to destroy.. not once, but three times. Wlad is good for the times but all-time great? not a chance.

The gold medal and the professional start are where the comparisons end. However I would like to point out that you again have pulled the rug out from under your own feet. You mention the Ali-Liston fight.....but fail to mention its a prime example of what made Ali great...overcoming the odds and pulling off something no one thought possible. Wlad can't say the same thing....he not only has never overcome, he has succumbed to lesser fighters on three occasions during his fighting prime and only avenging one of those losses.



** Oh dear, one scarcely knows where to hold your limp hand and lead you through your morass.

Point 1: Wlad overcame the touted, undefeated KO monster of his day his day, enduring repeated rabbit punches, being pushed down while off balance and then additionally rabbit punched, the KDs, to otherwise put on a masterclass of boxing and punching in a dog fight everyone said he would quit in.

Well, one can excuse you for never seeing the fight as you had other nonsense to fry up.

Point 2: You say Ali had defeated more talent than Wlad could imagine. Names, deary, hows about 5 names against the 5 best Wlad has defeated. You chose Ali's, and I'll chose Wlad's. Head to head in sequential order. Stay tuned boys, this could be more fun than a barrel of 'roided up monkeys!

Point 3: As far as pulling out something nobody thought possible regarding the Liston fight, well, go review the two Patterson fights Liston had leading up to this and go review Jones/Cooper bouts Ali had leading up to this, and find out who's gonna want to bet on Ali.

Last I checked, it was Liston doing the pulling out, quitting both fights. Hey, I don't set the odds, didn't tell Sonny to become a mob fighter, and didn't tell him how to run his business with the mob, but the results are clear. Liston quit, or in the 2 case was confused by one of the all time great incompetent performances by a ref in ring history, Jersey Joe Walcott.

Please pay special attention to point 2. I could use a little extra sport today.........:cool::cool3:

Hawk O'Connor
05-01-2009, 04:28 PM
** Oh dear, one scarcely knows where to hold your limp hand and lead you through your morass.

Point 1: Wlad overcame the touted, undefeated KO monster of his day his day, enduring repeated rabbit punches, being pushed down while off balance and then additionally rabbit punched, the KDs, to otherwise put on a masterclass of boxing and punching in a dog fight everyone said he would quit in.

Just who do you consider the "ko monster' of the day? and exactly who did he defeat to be considered a "ko monster"? if you're talking about Sam Peter then clue me in onto who he defeated to be considered such a destroyer? Did he upend an alltime great in devastating fashion?

Just because a vast majority of people predicted he could do great things doesn't make him a "monster"...so please, drop some of your "knowledge" and educate me on who this great "monster" was that evokes such great luster on Wlad's career. If indeed it is Samuel Peter we should end this right now, no way in hell can you base a victory of Peter in the same class as Ali/Foreman?

Well, one can excuse you for never seeing the fight as you had other nonsense to fry up.

I love it. Just because someone doesn't agree you assume no one has seen the fight. If indeed you do box you may need to look into quitting, apparently you've taken one too many shots to the dome because judging by alot of your "skewed" views thats the case. If you need some help I know a great neurologist.

Point 2: You say Ali had defeated more talent than Wlad could imagine. Names, deary, hows about 5 names against the 5 best Wlad has defeated. You chose Ali's, and I'll chose Wlad's. Head to head in sequential order. Stay tuned boys, this could be more fun than a barrel of 'roided up monkeys!

Okay lets go....start with Sonny Liston. Who exactly has Wlad defeated that can compare to Liston? Same with Foreman & Frazier. What highly touted contenders did Wlad defeat that can compare to fighters like Quarry and Bonavena? I can't wait to see you try to shoot holes in the 60's-70's era heavyweights because I'm pretty sure that is the path you are about to take.

There is no one on Wlad's list of wins that can compare to those 5, regardless of what you roll out. So please, educate us.



Point 3: As far as pulling out something nobody thought possible regarding the Liston fight, well, go review the two Patterson fights Liston had leading up to this and go review Jones/Cooper bouts Ali had leading up to this, and find out who's gonna want to bet on Ali.

Last I checked, it was Liston doing the pulling out, quitting both fights. Hey, I don't set the odds, didn't tell Sonny to become a mob fighter, and didn't tell him how to run his business with the mob, but the results are clear. Liston quit, or in the 2 case was confused by one of the all time great incompetent performances by a ref in ring history, Jersey Joe Walcott.

Please pay special attention to point 2. I could use a little extra sport today.........:cool::cool3:

You take the cake old man, I give you that. Your statements are only matched by your lack of insight into the venom you spew. Liston was a 8-1/10-1 favorite (i dont remember which) going into the fight. Hardly anyone gave Ali a chance. Ali even admitted he was scared of Liston and his intimidation tactics. Ali went in and totally outclassed and frustrated Liston. For you to even try and say otherwise is ridiculous.

It is absolutely f.cking amazing the lengths you go to discredit Ali. What did he do? Steal your girl back in the day so that you still hold a grudge?

GJC
05-01-2009, 05:07 PM
** Sorry, but one win over Foreman in a fight where his trainer admits to adjusting the ropes does not a career make.

You poor chaps lack the ability to understand context which is why you are doomed to opinions that have no gravitas and change daily. Foreman was a nice victory that put Ali back in the mix, but Foreman was not yet Foreman the Legend that he made himself in his comeback.

But guess what? Ali begins to crack top 10 lists for the first time after this bout, or did you forget that the typical geniuses(genii) of the day had considered him on the same level as Wlad today, ie, a nothing until Foreman.



The adjusting the ropes to help Ali is a myth as Dundee did not expect Ali to go to the ropes. Dundee was trying to tighten them.
You think that comeback 1990's Foreman was better than 1970's Foreman? Interesting opinion.
What top 10 lists are you referring to? ATG or the contenders as at 1974 list? Ali was considered to be in a decline after the Frazier and Norton losses pre Foreman its true but a lot rated him quite highly for his dominant reign pre ban as I recall.

GJC
05-01-2009, 05:19 PM
If Ali is as good as advertised, one would think his legacy would hold up. I don't see the Klitchkos as a threat to his legacy, but they do give his legacy some context since he is now seen as one of the last of the smaller heavy champs. Hey, Rocky one of the smallest champs ever, and his legacy holds up well, so why the fuss?


Sorry missed this bit. His legacy does hold up.
Last of the smaller heavy champs? Well he is taller than, Byrd, Peter, Ruiz, Holyfield, Ibragimov, Chagaev, Moorer, TYson, Bruno, Seldon so think his dwarfism wouldn't have held him back over the last 10 years or so.
Ok he isn't as big as Lewis, Bowe and the Klits but Ali wasn't as big as Terrell and just about coped.

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2009, 05:25 PM
Just who do you consider the "ko monster' of the day? and exactly who did he defeat to be considered a "ko monster"? if you're talking about Sam Peter then clue me in onto who he defeated to be considered such a destroyer? Did he upend an alltime great in devastating fashion?

Just because a vast majority of people predicted he could do great things doesn't make him a "monster"...so please, drop some of your "knowledge" and educate me on who this great "monster" was that evokes such great luster on Wlad's career. If indeed it is Samuel Peter we should end this right now, no way in hell can you base a victory of Peter in the same class as Ali/Foreman?

I love it. Just because someone doesn't agree you assume no one has seen the fight. If indeed you do box you may need to look into quitting, apparently you've taken one too many shots to the dome because judging by alot of your "skewed" views thats the case. If you need some help I know a great neurologist.

Okay lets go....start with Sonny Liston. Who exactly has Wlad defeated that can compare to Liston? Same with Foreman & Frazier. What highly touted contenders did Wlad defeat that can compare to fighters like Quarry and Bonavena? I can't wait to see you try to shoot holes in the 60's-70's era heavyweights because I'm pretty sure that is the path you are about to take.

There is no one on Wlad's list of wins that can compare to those 5, regardless of what you roll out. So please, educate us.

You take the cake old man, I give you that. Your statements are only matched by your lack of insight into the venom you spew. Liston was a 8-1/10-1 favorite (i dont remember which) going into the fight. Hardly anyone gave Ali a chance. Ali even admitted he was scared of Liston and his intimidation tactics. Ali went in and totally outclassed and frustrated Liston. For you to even try and say otherwise is ridiculous.

It is absolutely f.cking amazing the lengths you go to discredit Ali. What did he do? Steal your girl back in the day so that you still hold a grudge?

Try not to get TOO upset Hawkins: We all know that LRR's minders down at the home occasionally let him out of the rubber room and he invariably finds his way to a computer. It really must be hard him, after all suffering from both senility AND dementia is a tough row to hoe.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2009, 05:27 PM
The adjusting the ropes to help Ali is a myth as Dundee did not expect Ali to go to the ropes. Dundee was trying to tighten them.
You think that comeback 1990's Foreman was better than 1970's Foreman? Interesting opinion.
What top 10 lists are you referring to? ATG or the contenders as at 1974 list? Ali was considered to be in a decline after the Frazier and Norton losses pre Foreman its true but a lot rated him quite highly for his dominant reign pre ban as I recall.

You'll eventually catch on: LRR NEVER lets reality ruin a good myth if said myth redounds to Ali's discredit.

Poet

GJC
05-01-2009, 05:42 PM
You'll eventually catch on: LRR NEVER lets reality ruin a good myth if said myth redounds to Ali's discredit.

Poet
I'm assuming he has got to be tongue in cheek here???

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2009, 05:44 PM
I'm assuming he has got to be tongue in cheek here???

Sad thing is he's dead serious.

Poet

Hawk O'Connor
05-01-2009, 05:48 PM
I'm assuming he has got to be tongue in cheek here???

Sadly you would be mistaken.

GJC
05-01-2009, 05:58 PM
Sadly you would be mistaken.
Just started watching boxing? Got into it with the Klits that kind of thing?

Hawk O'Connor
05-01-2009, 06:00 PM
Just started watching boxing? Got into it with the Klits that kind of thing?


well from his profile, and some of his statements, he's been into boxing longer than i've been alive. maybe boxing on planetLRR is different than the rest of the world...who knows. makes for some good entertainment thats for sure.

GJC
05-01-2009, 06:03 PM
well from his profile, and some of his statements, he's been into boxing longer than i've been alive. maybe boxing on planetLRR is different than the rest of the world...who knows. makes for some good entertainment thats for sure.
Well I'm 70!
Maybe I'm keeping the alzheimers at bay better than I thought!
It's not I like any fighter as long as he is white stance?

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2009, 06:13 PM
Well I'm 70!
Maybe I'm keeping the alzheimers at bay better than I thought!
It's not I like any fighter as long as he is white stance?

No, I thought that at one time but since he's touted other fighters who where black but seems to target Ali, Holmes, and Hopkins I think he has a severe bias against fighters he regards as "Fancy Dan's". Apparently blocking punches with one's face, as all his favorite fighters seem to do, is a sign of manhood.

Poet

GJC
05-01-2009, 06:15 PM
No, I thought that at one time but since he's touted other fighters who where black but seems to target Ali, Holmes, and Hopkins I think he has a severe bias against fighters he regards as "Fancy Dan's". Apparently blocking punches with one's face, as all his favorite fighters seem to do, is a sign of manhood.

Poet
Well its another view on the noble art of self defense I suppose.
It would be a dull old world if we were all the same.

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2009, 06:19 PM
Well its another view on the noble art of self defense I suppose.
It would be a dull old world if we were all the same.

LOL! That would make it the "Noble Art of Self-Offense" then :rofl:

Poet

GJC
05-01-2009, 06:24 PM
LOL! That would make it the "Noble Art of Self-Offense" then :rofl:

Poet
I must say I had not really picked up on his name until I saw his name linked with yours in a versus thing.
I thought you had lined yourself up a fantasy fight with someone :)
I normally tell you to calm yourself down but I may ask you to hold my coat on this one!

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2009, 06:27 PM
I must say I had not really picked up on his name until I saw his name linked with yours in a versus thing.
I thought you had lined yourself up a fantasy fight with someone :)
I normally tell you to calm yourself down but I may ask you to hold my coat on this one!

:rofl: I honestly don't get into it that much with him anymore. I don't see his posts unless someone quotes him and THEN I'll take a few digs.

Poet

Hawk O'Connor
05-01-2009, 06:36 PM
:rofl: I honestly don't get into it that much with him anymore. I don't see his posts unless someone quotes him and THEN I'll take a few digs.

Poet

I'm anxious to see him discredit Frazier, Foreman and Liston in comparison to Klitschko's opponents. :fest30:

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2009, 06:40 PM
I'm anxious to see him discredit Frazier, Foreman and Liston in comparison to Klitschko's opponents. :fest30:

:rofl: Yeah, ever since Foreman quit on his stool against Chris Byrd.....oh wait.....Ever since Lennox tore up Frazier's face.....oh wait.....Ever since Liston got KTFO by Ross Purrity, Corrie Sanders, and Lamont Brewster.....oh wait.....

Poet

GJC
05-01-2009, 06:44 PM
I think the Klitschko brothers are the best of a bad lot currently, do think that Gerry Cooney must feel he was born 25 years too early though!

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2009, 06:48 PM
I think the Klitschko brothers are the best of a bad lot currently, do think that Gerry Cooney must feel he was born 25 years too early though!

Gentleman Gerry might be thinking he could lace 'em up TODAY and clean house :rofl: I'm frightend to think what Jerry Quarry might have done in this era (or "error" as it sometimes seems).

Poet

GJC
05-01-2009, 06:50 PM
I will say in his defence that there was a lot of anti Ali feeling in the mid 60's, us old farts thought he was all mouth, kept his hands too low etc etc. There are still a few things that I take issue with Ali on, I think his campaign against Frazier was too much and he didn't have the twinkle in his eye that he usually had when sending up his opponents in that case. Also didn't like the white devil stuff he parroted.
But I learnt to appreciate him in time and always get upset when I see his condition now.
He might not have been the best heavyweight of all time but I haven't seen one better.

GJC
05-01-2009, 06:51 PM
Gentleman Gerry might be thinking he could lace 'em up TODAY and clean house :rofl: I'm frightend to think what Jerry Quarry might have done in this era (or "error" as it sometimes seems).

Poet
Yes I think the Quarry's and Shavers would have got themselves a belt now.

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2009, 06:57 PM
I will say in his defence that there was a lot of anti Ali feeling in the mid 60's, us old farts thought he was all mouth, kept his hands too low etc etc. There are still a few things that I take issue with Ali on, I think his campaign against Frazier was too much and he didn't have the twinkle in his eye that he usually had when sending up his opponents in that case. Also didn't like the white devil stuff he parroted.
But I learnt to appreciate him in time and always get upset when I see his condition now.
He might not have been the best heavyweight of all time but I haven't seen one better.

My personal feelings toward Ali are not positive: I don't particularly care for the man personally after his behavior towards Frazier. That being said, he's the best Heavyweight I've ever seen: Better than my personal favorite Joe Louis. My negative opinion toward Ali as a person doesn't influence my assessment of him as a fighter.

Poet

GJC
05-01-2009, 06:59 PM
My personal feelings toward Ali are not positive: I don't particularly care for the man personally after his behavior towards Frazier. That being said, he's the best Heavyweight I've ever seen: Better than my personal favorite Joe Louis. My negative opinion toward Ali as a person doesn't influence my assessment of him as a fighter.

Poet
Yes Louis style doesn't make me cringe as much as Ali's but I would have my money on Ali in a fight between the 2 of them.

Hawk O'Connor
05-01-2009, 07:00 PM
My personal feelings toward Ali are not positive: I don't particularly care for the man personally after his behavior towards Frazier. That being said, he's the best Heavyweight I've ever seen: Better than my personal favorite Joe Louis. My negative opinion toward Ali as a person doesn't influence my assessment of him as a fighter.

Poet

Not directing this at you but that's exactly what got in the way of some of the older 'experts' views on Ali. Their opinions of his actions outside the ring clouded their overall judgement of what he achieved. Personally I don't agree with the way he handled himself in a lot of instances but in no way should it take away from what he accomplished.

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2009, 07:02 PM
Yes Louis style doesn't make me cringe as much as Ali's but I would have my money on Ali in a fight between the 2 of them.

In a ten fight series I'd pick Ali to win maybe six out of ten. Just too damn fast. I'd favor Louis over anyone else though.

Poet

LondonRingRules
05-01-2009, 07:04 PM
Okay lets go....start with Sonny Liston. Who exactly has Wlad defeated that can compare to Liston? Same with Foreman & Frazier. What highly touted contenders did Wlad defeat that can compare to fighters like Quarry and Bonavena? I can't wait to see you try to shoot holes in the 60's-70's era heavyweights because I'm pretty sure that is the path you are about to take.

There is no one on Wlad's list of wins that can compare to those 5, regardless of what you roll out. So please, educate us.

** Well, you may be stuck in Poet's 8th grade remedial class in the uneducable category.

Let's start with Chris Byrd. Easily outclasses while running ol'man Liston around the ring like a dog on a leash. Liston and Ali didn't like quick, savvvy, southpaws. Neither did Lewis fancy the same.

Hold it there, pard, you set the parameters before Foreman, so black him out.

The best on Ali's record is Frazier, beating a diminished Frazier with increasing health problems in an arguable decision after dropping the wide decision in the first classic meeting of undefeateds.

I'd pick McCline to go against a diminished Frazier. Jameel a late starting, late maturing giant fighter who rose to the top of the heap before Wlad, and bigger than the Buster Mathis Joe beat. McCline has held it together in the superheavy era into his late 30s whereas Buster declined fairly quickly due to health problems.

Marginally favor Frazier, but not a given he could beat his biggest opponent ever.

1-1 Wlad opponent vs Ali opponent.

Quarry? One of my favs, but only 195-200. Let's pick undefeated 245lb Sam Peter to out muscle him and blast him down.

Oscar? Same deal. I'd pick a tricky, larger undefeated lefty like Sultan to move him around the ring off balance and pick him off in a decision.

3-1 Wlad. Who else you gots?

Hawk O'Connor
05-01-2009, 07:17 PM
** Well, you may be stuck in Poet's 8th grade remedial class in the uneducable category.

Let's start with Chris Byrd. Easily outclasses while running ol'man Liston around the ring like a dog on a leash. Liston and Ali didn't like quick, savvvy, southpaws. Neither did Lewis fancy the same.

Hold it there, pard, you set the parameters before Foreman, so black him out.

The best on Ali's record is Frazier, beating a diminished Frazier with increasing health problems in an arguable decision after dropping the wide decision in the first classic meeting of undefeateds.

I'd pick McCline to go against a diminished Frazier. Jameel a late starting, late maturing giant fighter who rose to the top of the heap before Wlad, and bigger than the Buster Mathis Joe beat. McCline has held it together in the superheavy era into his late 30s whereas Buster declined fairly quickly due to health problems.

Marginally favor Frazier, but not a given he could beat his biggest opponent ever.

1-1 Wlad opponent vs Ali opponent.

Quarry? One of my favs, but only 195-200. Let's pick undefeated 245lb Sam Peter to out muscle him and blast him down.

Oscar? Same deal. I'd pick a tricky, larger undefeated lefty like Sultan to move him around the ring off balance and pick him off in a decision.

3-1 Wlad. Who else you gots?

Jameel McCline against Frazier? You'd pick a no heart, even less talented, McCline to go against Smokin' Joe and only favor Frazier marginally so? McCline may be big but is nowhere near the class of Big George Foreman and the chances of him beating Frazier are nil. Frazier gets in and goes to work and Big Time folds like a cheap beach chair.

Quarry has more talent, more heart and is 20 times tougher than Samuel Peter will ever be. In a head to head I would pick Quarry to get in the trenches and eventually KO Peter. Sam Peter is one of the most overrated of our current crop of fighters and has absolutely no business being compared to someone of Quarry's ability. He may be bigger but he has shown no heart, nor the ability to beat anyone of any substance.

And your claim Byrd would run away from and outclass Liston? How exactly is Byrd going to keep Liston off of him? Byrd is faster than Liston but he is nothing compared to Ali's combination of size and skill. Liston would annihilate Byrd. Liston's power would be too much for Byrd to overcome. He has a decent chin but he would get starched by Sonny.

I see you conveniently ignore Foreman, to be expected I guess. At least you saved us from a long winded explanation on how Corrie Sanders would have ***** slapped Big George. :rofl:

It's unfathomable to me to see you compare this era to the 70's.

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2009, 07:26 PM
Jameel McCline against Frazier? You'd pick a no heart, even less talented, McCline to go against Smokin' Joe and only favor Frazier marginally so? McCline may be big but is nowhere near the class of Big George Foreman and the chances of him beating Frazier are nil. Frazier gets in and goes to work and Big Time folds like a cheap beach chair.

Quarry has more talent, more heart and is 20 times tougher than Samuel Peter will ever be. In a head to head I would pick Quarry to get in the trenches and eventually KO Peter. Sam Peter is one of the most overrated of our current crop of fighters and has absolutely no business being compared to someone of Quarry's ability. He may be bigger but he has shown no heart, nor the ability to beat anyone of any substance.

And your claim Byrd would run away from and outclass Liston? How exactly is Byrd going to keep Liston off of him? Byrd is faster than Liston but he is nothing compared to Ali's combination of size and skill. Liston would annihilate Byrd. Liston's power would be too much for Byrd to overcome. He has a decent chin but he would get starched by Sonny.

I see you conveniently ignore Foreman, to be expected I guess. At least you saved us from a long winded explanation on how Corrie Sanders would have ***** slapped Big George. :rofl:

It's unfathomable to me to see you compare this era to the 70's.

:rofl: Guess he never saw Ibeabuchi - Byrd :rofl: I guess he's Chase's new soul mate: Lard trumps skill :rofl:

Poet

Hawk O'Connor
05-01-2009, 07:32 PM
:rofl: Guess he never saw Ibeabuchi - Byrd :rofl: I guess he's Chase's new soul mate: Lard trumps skill :rofl:

Poet

I guess since Vitali quit on his stool in a bout against Byrd it equals Byrd>ATGs.

GJC
05-01-2009, 07:35 PM
Ali didn't like quick, savvvy, southpaws.




I'm struggling to think of one he fought, only ones that come to mind are Midenberger and Richard Dunn. But yes they gave him a boxing lesson no doubt about it.

Kid McCoy
05-01-2009, 07:41 PM
I'm struggling to think of one he fought, only ones that come to mind are Midenberger and Richard Dunn. But yes they gave him a boxing lesson no doubt about it.

Actually I'm sure Ali once cited Mildenberger as one of his trickier opponents. I believe it was the first time he'd ever faced a lefty. He won well enough in the end, but Mildenberger did cause him a few problems.

GJC
05-01-2009, 07:41 PM
No I'm struggling to think of the quick savvy southpaws that Lewis and Liston struggled with as well. I guess a lot of fighters would struggle against these mythical quick savvy southpaws and I'm not saying Ali, Lewis and Liston wouldn't but names would be helpful?

GJC
05-01-2009, 07:43 PM
Actually I'm sure Ali once cited Mildenberger as one of his trickier opponents. I believe it was the first time he'd ever faced a lefty. He won well enough in the end, but Mildenberger did cause him a few problems.
True, Mildenberger wasn't one of Ali's great fights. Think the only problems Dunn gave him was getting out of the way when Dunn kept going down.
One name doesn't point to a general weakness though.

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2009, 07:53 PM
There haven't been too many southpaws at Heavyweight over the years. In fact, Moorer was the first to actually win a title.....not that he held it very long.

Poet

Kid McCoy
05-01-2009, 08:03 PM
True, Mildenberger wasn't one of Ali's great fights. Think the only problems Dunn gave him was getting out of the way when Dunn kept going down.
One name doesn't point to a general weakness though.

I know he's most famous for being walloped around the ring by Ali (and even the ultra-cautious pair Joe Bugner and Jimmy Young KO'd him) but one curiosity in Richard Dunn's career is that he holds a win over Roy Williams. The same fearsome Roy Williams who causes Earnie Shavers and Larry Holmes to break out in a cold sweat whenever his name is mentioned. I've never seen the fight, but from what I've heard Williams just couldn't solve the southpaw puzzle and Dunn was the worthy winner. The quirks of boxing.

Southpaw16BF
05-01-2009, 08:06 PM
I see a Liston Byrd fight being simialar to Byrd-Ike Ibeabuchi, Byrd may have speed over Sonny, but after a few rounds Liston starts landing power punchers, and traps Byrd in the corner while he lands with hard combination power punchers and it is goodnight for Byrd.......

I also feel Oscar Natalio Bonavena could use his strength and toughness to grind out a decision against Sultan Ibragimov, medicore Ray Ausin had alot of success using his strength and brute force to drop Sultan and manage a draw against him.

I feel Bonavena is better skilled than Austin, tougher, and most likely stronger, and Austin caused Sultan trouble with these tools and so could Bonavena. A rather close fight

And the Ali who beat Joe Frazier, no dout would have to much heart, strength and punch to hard for the decent Jameel McCline, I have no dout Frazier takes a KO Victory here...

I find it rather laughable how much LRR dislikes Ali........What's he saying is Wlad's resume of opponets fought could beat most of the 70's Heavyweight Era, which is considered to be one of the best Heavyweights Era's ever.

:rofl:

GJC
05-01-2009, 08:10 PM
I know he's most famous for being walloped around the ring by Ali (and even the ultra-cautious pair Joe Bugner and Jimmy Young KO'd him) but one curiosity in Richard Dunn's career is that he holds a win over Roy Williams. The same fearsome Roy Williams who causes Earnie Shavers and Larry Holmes to break out in a cold sweat whenever his name is mentioned. I've never seen the fight, but from what I've heard Williams just couldn't solve the southpaw puzzle and Dunn was the worthy winner. The quirks of boxing.
I remember Roy Williams he got knocked out by Shavers just after he knocked down Shavers. Didn't remember Dunn beating him. Remember Bugner coming out of one of his many retirements and actually looking like a fighter for once against Dunn.

GJC
05-01-2009, 08:19 PM
I find it rather laughable how much LRR dislikes Ali........What's he saying is Wlad's resume of opponets fought could beat most of the 70's Heavyweight Era, which is considered to be one of the best Heavyweights Era's ever.


Well I'll always listen to a point of view but I haven't seen anything to convince me either from Wladimir Klitschko or from our poster

Kid McCoy
05-01-2009, 08:21 PM
I remember Roy Williams he got knocked out by Shavers just after he knocked down Shavers. Didn't remember Dunn beating him. Remember Bugner coming out of one of his many retirements and actually looking like a fighter for once against Dunn.

Bugner and Dunn disliked each other a lot (no idea why), which probably explains the rare show of aggression from Joe.

The Dunn-Williams fight took place in the UK in the mid-70s. Considering how highly regarded Williams was by Ali (who used him as a sparring partner), Holmes and Shavers, it's always been a result that's puzzled me.

GJC
05-01-2009, 08:26 PM
Bugner and Dunn disliked each other a lot (no idea why), which probably explains the rare show of aggression from Joe.

The Dunn-Williams fight took place in the UK in the mid-70s. Considering how highly regarded Williams was by Ali (who used him as a sparring partner), Holmes and Shavers, it's always been a result that's puzzled me.
Dunn was his Kirkland Laing? Be a dull sport if it didn't have these results

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2009, 08:27 PM
I see a Liston Byrd fight being simialar to Byrd-Ike Ibeabuchi, Byrd may have speed over Sonny, but after a few rounds Liston starts landing power punchers, and traps Byrd in the corner while he lands with hard combination power punchers and it is goodnight for Byrd.......

I also feel Oscar Natalio Bonavena could use his strength and toughness to grind out a decision against Sultan Ibragimov, medicore Ray Ausin had alot of success using his strength and brute force to drop Sultan and manage a draw against him.

I feel Bonavena is better skilled than Austin, tougher, and most likely stronger, and Austin caused Sultan trouble with these tools and so could Bonavena. A rather close fight

And the Ali who beat Joe Frazier, no dout would have to much heart, strength and punch to hard for the decent Jameel McCline, I have dout Frazier takes a KO Victory here...

I find it rather laughable how much LRR dislikes Ali........What's he saying is Wlad's resume of opponets fought could beat most of the 70's Heavyweight Era, which is considered to be one of the best Heavyweights Era's ever.

:rofl:

There are some misguided posters on BS that think that the current era (regardless of division) is ALWAYS the best ever.....that every generation is exponentially superior to the one that came before it. Now I don't know if this is a complete misreading on their part of Darwinian evolution or if it's mearly the conceit of the young (who are immortal and know everything unlike us stupid, inferior OLD people).

Poet

Hawk O'Connor
05-01-2009, 08:40 PM
There are some misguided posters on BS that think that the current era (regardless of division) is ALWAYS the best ever.....that every generationg is exponentially superior to the one that came before it. Now I don't know if this is a complete misreading on their part of Darwinian evolution or if it's mearly the conceit of the young (who are immortal and know everything unlike us stupid, inferior OLD people).

Poet

I think a majority of that sort of thinking is just biasness toward a certain fighter. I think alot of people who dismiss earlier eras are slanted toward the current era because thats what they see the most of. In some cases they just don't what the hell they are talking about.

GJC
05-01-2009, 09:08 PM
[COLOR="DarkOrchid. Now I don't know if this is a complete misreading on their part of Darwinian evolution [/COLOR]


Must say I've never heard Ali called the last of the small Heavyweights!

LondonRingRules
05-01-2009, 10:35 PM
Jameel McCline against Frazier? You'd pick a no heart, even less talented, McCline to go against Smokin' Joe and only favor Frazier marginally so? McCline may be big but is nowhere near the class of Big George Foreman and the chances of him beating Frazier are nil. Frazier gets in and goes to work and Big Time folds like a cheap beach chair.

Quarry has more talent, more heart and is 20 times tougher than Samuel Peter will ever be. In a head to head I would pick Quarry to get in the trenches and eventually KO Peter. Sam Peter is one of the most overrated of our current crop of fighters and has absolutely no business being compared to someone of Quarry's ability. He may be bigger but he has shown no heart, nor the ability to beat anyone of any substance.

And your claim Byrd would run away from and outclass Liston? How exactly is Byrd going to keep Liston off of him? Byrd is faster than Liston but he is nothing compared to Ali's combination of size and skill. Liston would annihilate Byrd. Liston's power would be too much for Byrd to overcome. He has a decent chin but he would get starched by Sonny.

I see you conveniently ignore Foreman, to be expected I guess. At least you saved us from a long winded explanation on how Corrie Sanders would have ***** slapped Big George. :rofl:

It's unfathomable to me to see you compare this era to the 70's.

** Sweet dear, McCline for whatever his faults was in ascendency when he fought Wlad. Frazier was in a major health decline when Ali beat him in the rematch, yet somehow, me making Frazier a slight fav fills your shorts to their limit.

Quarry had talent, and Bob Fitz had even more talent, and neither don't stand an igloo's chance in hell of surviving undefeated Peter.

Liston never beat a fighter of Byrd's class after he consecutively demolished the ill advised come forward style of Floyd. Man was pushin' 40 yrs of age and didn't have the legs to go chase down Byrd who was the underrated fighter of his era. Lewis sold his belt rather than face his Byrd mandatory, and Lewis was still at his prime.

Read it and weep...........:cool::cool3:

Hawk O'Connor
05-01-2009, 10:57 PM
** Sweet dear, McCline for whatever his faults was in ascendency when he fought Wlad. Frazier was in a major health decline when Ali beat him in the rematch, yet somehow, me making Frazier a slight fav fills your shorts to their limit.

Quarry had talent, and Bob Fitz had even more talent, and neither don't stand an igloo's chance in hell of surviving undefeated Peter.

Liston never beat a fighter of Byrd's class after he consecutively demolished the ill advised come forward style of Floyd. Man was pushin' 40 yrs of age and didn't have the legs to go chase down Byrd who was the underrated fighter of his era. Lewis sold his belt rather than face his Byrd mandatory, and Lewis was still at his prime.

Read it and weep...........:cool::cool3:

An "ascending" Jameel McCline is still not comparable to Joe Frazier in any capacity. While we're one the subject, what exactly was Jameel McCline ascending to? Mediocrity? You make it as if Jameel McCline actually achieved something of note. Just how would he keep Frazier off of him? He has no jab of note, sure he always claimed he was going to use his length and pump the jab but rarely did he. He was particularly clumsy..hell, let's face it Jameel McCline has never been any good. Joe Frazier would stay on him and chop him down to size. Frazier KO RD 7.

I stand by earlier assertion of Peter/Quarry.....

A fighter of Byrd's class? What exactly did he do of note to be considered in Liston's class in the pantheon of all-time greats? Liston would catch up to Byrd and KO him, brutally I might add.

Remind me again why you keep bringing up Lennox Lewis?

Ziggy Stardust
05-01-2009, 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by LondonRingRules
** Well, you may be stuck in Poet's 8th grade remedial class in the uneducable category.

:haha: You know how I know I've made someone my *****? When they SCREAM my name in every post they make! :rofl:

Poet

GJC
05-02-2009, 12:21 AM
Well I'm learning a lot here! Still would like to know the names of these quick elusive southpaws that Ali, Liston and Lewis struggle with. Theoretically maybe true but names would be nice. So far i've got Mildenberger and Dunn for Ali who maybe got 3 rounds between them after that I'm struggling. As for Byrd, McCline and Peter I will certainly look on them in a whole new light. I'd fancy Frazier against them all now!

GJC
05-02-2009, 12:33 AM
unlike us stupid, inferior OLD people).

Poet

You're 40! I have cardigans older than you!

Ziggy Stardust
05-02-2009, 01:51 AM
You're 40! I have cardigans older than you!

Yeah, but you know how these kids think: A person hits 30 and all of a sudden they're OLD and STUPID.....Didn't you know 20 somethings know EVERYTHING? And they're IMMORTAL too :rofl: So many 20 somethings could use what the Romans had for their conquering generals: When a general returned to Rome victorious stand behing him as he rode in his chariot holding the victor's laurel over his head was a slave who would wisper in the general's ear "Remember thou art mortal....."

PS. Yes, I'm classically educated.....no thanks to the public school system though.

Poet

JAB5239
05-02-2009, 05:17 AM
Bugner and Dunn disliked each other a lot (no idea why), which probably explains the rare show of aggression from Joe.

The Dunn-Williams fight took place in the UK in the mid-70s. Considering how highly regarded Williams was by Ali (who used him as a sparring partner), Holmes and Shavers, it's always been a result that's puzzled me.

According to Larry Holmes, Williams was a fearsome fighter who just had bad management and couldn't catch a break. After Ali-Foreman, where Williams fight got scratched because of a late start, Roy demanded Ali pay him anyway. Ali called for a sparring session where Williams was all to willing to oblige and went toe to toe with Ali for 10 rounds cursing him the whole time. The next day they did another 10 with the same results and Ali finally relented, Gave Roy his money and promptly sent him packing.

Another story according to Holmes has Larry at one of Williams fights and was cheering him on when Roy turned to him in the middle of the fight and told him to "shut the **** up!". Makes you wonder how mant other deserving fighters there have been that have never gotten a break because of bad management or lack of the right connections. I know Holmes thought very highly of Roy Williams as a fighter.

LondonRingRules
05-02-2009, 07:44 AM
An "ascending" Jameel McCline is still not comparable to Joe Frazier in any capacity. While we're one the subject, what exactly was Jameel McCline ascending to? Mediocrity? You make it as if Jameel McCline actually achieved something of note. Just how would he keep Frazier off of him? He has no jab of note, sure he always claimed he was going to use his length and pump the jab but rarely did he. He was particularly clumsy..hell, let's face it Jameel McCline has never been any good. Joe Frazier would stay on him and chop him down to size. Frazier KO RD 7.

I stand by earlier assertion of Peter/Quarry.....

A fighter of Byrd's class? What exactly did he do of note to be considered in Liston's class in the pantheon of all-time greats? Liston would catch up to Byrd and KO him, brutally I might add.

Remind me again why you keep bringing up Lennox Lewis?

** Jumbo Cummings wasn't in Joe's class either. Nor was Ron Stander.

Like I mentioned, you lack context which is why your immature lists keep changing as context is slowly being added on in layers. Maybe you'll firm up a decade from now, but right now you're as shaky as a bowl of jello.

McCline turned pro after a stint in prison, getting off to a shaky 2-2-1 start. He was 25 yrs old with no amateur background save maybe some prison bouts and his two losses and a draw against more experienced fighters, his wins against fellow novices. He then goes undefeated for 7 yrs until Wlad KOs him. He had consecutively beaten King Ipitan, Alfred Cole, Micheal Grant, Lance Whitaker and Shannon Briggs to get to that point. Cole the former cruiser champ, Grant highly rated coming off his sole loss to Lewis, Whitaker still in ascendency with some good wins, and the hot and cold ever dangerous former title contender to Lewis, Briggs.

After the Wlad loss, he rebounds with a KO of the still well regarded Shufford and a KO of undefeated Cedric Boswell, and then knocks down Byrd in his 2nd title challenge on the way to dropping a hotly contested split.

Stander was able to outmuscle Joe and hurt him in the early going before running out of steam. I don't see pre Ali Joe needing more than 2 rds to dispose of Stander, so clearly something was amiss with Joe who of course drops his title to Foreman the next bout.'. Laid back Bugs goes the distance with Joe before his Ali rematch in a very close fight. Bugs a big man in his day dwarfed by McCline who is a fundamentally sound boxer/puncher with a good chin and durability. His weakness was stamina which sees him fade in close fights which is why I made Frazier a slight fav over him, or did you forget again?

Indeed, your still developing adolescent noggin forgets the exercise at hand, the matching consecutive best opponents of Ali and Wlad to the point of their 33rd birthday, excluding Foreman per YOU.

McCline happens to be next in the queue sweetie and he could beat Frazier using his size and strength well as I don't think Joe had enough in the well by then to exploit his stamina issues, but AGAIN, I made Joe the slight fav.

You poor silly little dear, the ring don't care how great you are, you'll be exposed if you hang on too long or get mixed up with the mob. Greater fighters being beaten by lesser fighters overflow the ranks of the IBHOF, but you can't be bothered to consider that.

I bring Lewis up because he was the very big, strong, boxer/puncher of his day with a jab like Liston's that he used to bludgeon and otherwise control people. He didn't fancy having to match footspeed with a tricky lefty while hitting the ghosts of all the angles Byrd gives him, so Lewis sold his belt off rather than face his mandatory.

That's a lotta respect for the risk/reward proposition that Byrd was, and like it or not, if Norton and other like heavies make the HOF, then so will Byrd eventually, as will Moorer since they are seen as groundbreakers as lefties are finally starting to get their due and their shots.

Liston looked very ill prepared chasing Ali around the ring in Miami, and that the inexperienced Ali, not a savvy experienced lefty ring technician that Byrd was.

No, I stand by MY earlier assertion of Peter/Quarry.....

.........wait..............what time is it...................IT'S HAWK TIME........:You_Rock_

GJC
05-02-2009, 09:26 AM
** Jumbo Cummings wasn't in Joe's class either. Nor was Ron Stander.
Stander was able to outmuscle Joe and hurt him in the early going before running out of steam. I don't see pre Ali Joe needing more than 2 rds to dispose of Stander, so clearly something was amiss with Joe who of course drops his title to Foreman the next bout.'. Laid back Bugs goes the distance with Joe before his Ali rematch in a very close fight. Bugs a big man in his day dwarfed by McCline who is a fundamentally sound boxer/puncher with a good chin and durability.



Jumbo Cummings got a draw with an old Frazier coming out of a five year lay off. Ron Stander was more running out of blood rather than steam, Frazier was never the quickest starter even in his prime. Stander lasted longer than 2rounds he lasted 5 rounds. Bugner fought the fight of his life against Frazier, Bugner was a vey good defensive boxer who was a ranked contender for quite a few years. That said the fight he had with Frazier wasn't close by any stretch of the imagination. Still glad you can see that Frazier might squeeze past these morden day greats.

GJC
05-02-2009, 09:28 AM
if Norton and other like heavies make the HOF, then so will Byrd eventually, as will Moorer since they are seen as groundbreakers as lefties are finally starting to get their due and their shots.


Well they are not groundbreakers, they join the other as yet un-named southpaws that always gave Ali, Liston and Lewis trouble.

Ziggy Stardust
05-02-2009, 09:51 AM
Well they are not groundbreakers, they join the other as yet un-named southpaws that always gave Ali, Liston and Lewis trouble.

Point of fact: Getting into the HOF in boxing is the equivelent of getting a nice pen at the company awards banquet. If a fighter is even remotely popular he'll get in the HOF.....All one needs is at minimum a small fan base. Getting in the HOF does NOT make a fighter an ATG by ANY stretch of the imagination. This ain't Cooperstown.

Poet

hayemakeme
05-02-2009, 09:03 PM
Call me crazy but Wlad used to be a lot different. Later in his career he resembles more of the typical eastern european fighter, but earlier he used to mix his punches up really well and I miss that. If he mixes it up well against Haye I can see him winning big, but he's gotta do more than this jab jab overhand right business that we've been seeing in every fight - he's capable of more than that.

Hawk O'Connor
05-02-2009, 10:29 PM
** Jumbo Cummings wasn't in Joe's class either. Nor was Ron Stander.

And Jumbo Cummings has what to do with this discussion? Frazier was pushing 38 and had been out of the ring for over 5 years for that fight... plus Joe KOed Stander in 5. The point being?

Like I mentioned, you lack context which is why your immature lists keep changing as context is slowly being added on in layers. Maybe you'll firm up a decade from now, but right now you're as shaky as a bowl of jello.

I lack context? You have yet to demonstrate any win that Wlad had that was comparable to Ali's victory over prime-Foreman. Loosen the Depends a little and let a little blood flow into that decrepit raisin of a brain you have.

McCline turned pro after a stint in prison, getting off to a shaky 2-2-1 start. He was 25 yrs old with no amateur background save maybe some prison bouts and his two losses and a draw against more experienced fighters, his wins against fellow novices. He then goes undefeated for 7 yrs until Wlad KOs him. He had consecutively beaten King Ipitan, Alfred Cole, Micheal Grant, Lance Whitaker and Shannon Briggs to get to that point. Cole the former cruiser champ, Grant highly rated coming off his sole loss to Lewis, Whitaker still in ascendency with some good wins, and the hot and cold ever dangerous former title contender to Lewis, Briggs.

So the fact that McCline was able to win bouts against equally big, uncoordinated, unskilled and fat competition means what? Shannon Briggs, Goofi and Michael Grant may be his best wins but neither of them were ever anything more than glorified sparring partners in their best days. they were made contenders because of their size...nothing more, nothing less.

Alfred Cole? Is this the same Al Cole that got schooled by near 40 Tim Witherspoon? Thought so. The mere fact that you mention these wins in an attempt to legitimize McCline is telling of the material you have to work with. All of these heavyweights are trash in comparison to the era you are comparing them to.

McCline may be bigger but he lacks the skill and fortitude to match up with any version of Joe. Any version of Joe will chop down McCline and KO his overrated ass.

After the Wlad loss, he rebounds with a KO of the still well regarded Shufford and a KO of undefeated Cedric Boswell, and then knocks down Byrd in his 2nd title challenge on the way to dropping a hotly contested split.

Stander was able to outmuscle Joe and hurt him in the early going before running out of steam. I don't see pre Ali Joe needing more than 2 rds to dispose of Stander, so clearly something was amiss with Joe who of course drops his title to Foreman the next bout.'. Laid back Bugs goes the distance with Joe before his Ali rematch in a very close fight. Bugs a big man in his day dwarfed by McCline who is a fundamentally sound boxer/puncher with a good chin and durability. His weakness was stamina which sees him fade in close fights which is why I made Frazier a slight fav over him, or did you forget again?

Did you just call McCline fundamentally sound? That should effectively negate anything else you have to say on this....

Indeed, your still developing adolescent noggin forgets the exercise at hand, the matching consecutive best opponents of Ali and Wlad to the point of their 33rd birthday, excluding Foreman per YOU.

I said Ali's win over Foreman is better than Wlad's entire career of wins. You have yet to prove me wrong.

McCline happens to be next in the queue sweetie and he could beat Frazier using his size and strength well as I don't think Joe had enough in the well by then to exploit his stamina issues, but AGAIN, I made Joe the slight fav.

That's the thing with McCline isn't it? Could could could could could...he coulda done alot but he never did. He coulda been champ but he was never able to live up to even an iota of the hype heaped on him. Regardless of the reasoning....he was never able to cross the line from chump to champ.


You poor silly little dear, the ring don't care how great you are, you'll be exposed if you hang on too long or get mixed up with the mob. Greater fighters being beaten by lesser fighters overflow the ranks of the IBHOF, but you can't be bothered to consider that.

I bring Lewis up because he was the very big, strong, boxer/puncher of his day with a jab like Liston's that he used to bludgeon and otherwise control people. He didn't fancy having to match footspeed with a tricky lefty while hitting the ghosts of all the angles Byrd gives him, so Lewis sold his belt off rather than face his mandatory.

That's a lotta respect for the risk/reward proposition that Byrd was, and like it or not, if Norton and other like heavies make the HOF, then so will Byrd eventually, as will Moorer since they are seen as groundbreakers as lefties are finally starting to get their due and their shots.

Liston looked very ill prepared chasing Ali around the ring in Miami, and that the inexperienced Ali, not a savvy experienced lefty ring technician that Byrd was.

No, I stand by MY earlier assertion of Peter/Quarry.....

.........wait..............what time is it...................IT'S HAWK TIME........:You_Rock_


No matter what you say about Byrd the fact is he would get demolished against Liston. Compare him to Liston all you like but the fact remains that Lewis lacked the killer instinct that Liston had in spades. Liston would go after Byrd where as Lewis would more than likely go into "Pugilist Specialist" mode. I like Lewis, but you cannot compare him to the stone cold killer that Liston was. Bad comparison on your part com padre.

Hall Of Fame? we know how credible the hall of fame is.

I find it funny you keep leveling the immature label because of the fact that my lists change. What's your excuse? Senility? You leave both Holmes and Ali from your entire list yet have the audacity to criticize someone else?

Your conservative Texas bias is a bit hypocritical grandpa....laud Wlad's safety first style but decry Ali's style at the same time? Ridiculous. :gay:

Special K
05-03-2009, 04:24 PM
He's a white East European, that instantly loses him respect, plus he's been stopped three times so must be a bum. Even his brother has no or little respect in the HW game because of a cut and dislocated shoulder. Only a 50-0 record (100% KO's) would get either of them a smidgeon of respect. If Wlad smashes Haye KO2 he will still get no credit. He can't win, wrong colour and nationality...

joe strong
05-03-2009, 06:30 PM
with his amateur pedigree & gold medal win there is no excuse for losing to journeyman purrity.why was he losing to puritty after 20 fights? He should have been knocking guys like purrity out by his 8th fight.he's was protected for years in Europe.has anyone heard the rumor that vitalis next defence is vs Holyfield in September? I read that in an import magazine at chapters book store.

JAB5239
05-04-2009, 04:54 AM
He's a white East European, that instantly loses him respect, plus he's been stopped three times so must be a bum. Even his brother has no or little respect in the HW game because of a cut and dislocated shoulder. Only a 50-0 record (100% KO's) would get either of them a smidgeon of respect. If Wlad smashes Haye KO2 he will still get no credit. He can't win, wrong colour and nationality...

Your style of posting.........It would go over great on NSB. Here....not so much.

LondonRingRules
05-04-2009, 09:41 AM
No matter what you say about Byrd the fact is he would get demolished against Liston. Compare him to Liston all you like but the fact remains that Lewis lacked the killer instinct that Liston had in spades. Liston would go after Byrd where as Lewis would more than likely go into "Pugilist Specialist" mode. I like Lewis, but you cannot compare him to the stone cold killer that Liston was. Bad comparison on your part com padre.

Hall Of Fame? we know how credible the hall of fame is.

I find it funny you keep leveling the immature label because of the fact that my lists change. What's your excuse? Senility? You leave both Holmes and Ali from your entire list yet have the audacity to criticize someone else?

Your conservative Texas bias is a bit hypocritical grandpa....laud Wlad's safety first style but decry Ali's style at the same time? Ridiculous. :gay:

** Nice little gay icon you got there sweetie pie.

Wlad doesn't collect disputed decisions like lint. He knocks people out. There is a method to produce an conclusive, concussive final end.

His record is open to legit plaudits and critiques just as is Ali's.

It ain't fact that 40 yr old Sonny is gonna demolish Byrd, it's unsupported conjecture. He never won a bout against a top heavy after his demolition of the heavily padded and protected Patterson who has my utmost respect for breaking with Cus's wishes and fighting the beast. Floyd fought him head on, not Byrd's style.

A savvy LH named Monte Marty Maybelle Marshall busted Liston's jaw and made himself otherwise unavailable to be killed and took a decision from him near his prime. Of course Byrd got tracked down and blasted out by Ike, a bigger, more fearsome Liston, but Byrd also took a decision against Tua and fought well against other big men, getting most of those decisions.

Facts are you don't know facts from fantastical farces that you dream up in your soft still under construction noggin......:cool::cool3:

GJC
05-04-2009, 11:01 AM
A savvy LH named Monte Marty Maybelle Marshall busted Liston's jaw and made himself otherwise unavailable to be killed and took a decision from him near his prime.

No, it was in his 6th or 7th fight and about 5 years before LIston's peak.

Ziggy Stardust
05-04-2009, 11:25 AM
No, it was in his 6th or 7th fight and about 5 years before LIston's peak.

He also fails to mention that when they met a second time Liston KOed Marshall in 6.

Poet

GJC
05-04-2009, 11:50 AM
He also fails to mention that when they met a second time Liston KOed Marshall in 6.

Poet
Or the 3rd time, but still why spoil a theory

Hawk O'Connor
05-04-2009, 12:18 PM
** Nice little gay icon you got there sweetie pie.

I agree, it fits a lot of the things that come from you right nicely.

Wlad doesn't collect disputed decisions like lint. He knocks people out. There is a method to produce an conclusive, concussive final end.

And he does that it very well against has-beens, never weres and tomato cans. Well except for Ross Puritty and Corrie Sanders. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt against Brewster seeing as he did avenge the loss..but he did get KOed in the first place, something that never happened to Ali in the prime of his career..come to think of it, never happened in the twilight of his career either.

Still haven't proven that anything Wlad has done is anywhere comparable to Ali's win against Foreman. Does it take you this long to conjure up more bull*****?

His record is open to legit plaudits and critiques just as is Ali's.

Legit? Kind of takes you out of the loop with alot of the garbage you spew now doesn't it?

It ain't fact that 40 yr old Sonny is gonna demolish Byrd, it's unsupported conjecture. He never won a bout against a top heavy after his demolition of the heavily padded and protected Patterson who has my utmost respect for breaking with Cus's wishes and fighting the beast. Floyd fought him head on, not Byrd's style.

If someone as unproven (and yes Ike is/was unproven against top competition) as Ike could take out Byrd then someone of Sonny's stature surely would and in just as brutal of a fashion. Byrd does not have the firepower to keep someone like Liston at bay for an entire fight.

A savvy LH named Monte Marty Maybelle Marshall busted Liston's jaw and made himself otherwise unavailable to be killed and took a decision from him near his prime. Of course Byrd got tracked down and blasted out by Ike, a bigger, more fearsome Liston, but Byrd also took a decision against Tua and fought well against other big men, getting most of those decisions.



You always present things but leave out pieces of the puzzle.... glad to see you're consistent. Regardless, I can't believe you use Tua in a comparison with how Byrd could do with Liston. But I'm not going to expound on something that will fall on deaf ears.

Facts are you don't know facts from fantastical farces that you dream up in your soft still under construction noggin......:cool::cool3:


This coming from the nut job who thinks Wladimir Klitschko's career is comparable to Muhammad Ali? :crackhead

LondonRingRules
05-04-2009, 07:08 PM
No, it was in his 6th or 7th fight and about 5 years before LIston's peak.

** Sorry there, Sunny Jim, pay attention, I said near his prime.

He turned pro at 22 according to his bogus birth cert he conjured up years later, but everyone knew he was more like 25, prime traditional age for heavies, indeed, most fighters.

He had extensive prep from pros in prison and was coming off of two consecutive wins over the highly regarded Summerlin, no choirboy he against little Monte. The reason Sonnyboy's "peak" came so late was down to his prison stint interupting his career just as he was entering fringe prospect stage. Might have even cracked the top ten just before his incarceration.

Personally, I sorta like the Big Bear, but this notion of him as a monster best understood that most of the guys he looked like a monster against were well under 200 lbs.

Facts are Byrd was better and beat better than any heavy Sonny ever beat. Byrd is one of the few who can make himself extremely tough against most styles. Not much smaller than Liston either or young Clay and near as speedy as Clay from a soutpaw stance.

LondonRingRules
05-04-2009, 07:23 PM
If someone as unproven (and yes Ike is/was unproven against top competition) as Ike could take out Byrd then someone of Sonny's stature surely would and in just as brutal of a fashion. Byrd does not have the firepower to keep someone like Liston at bay for an entire fight.

** Need get your mama to change out that dim bulb the next time she swaps out your diapers sonnyboy.

Ike was a touted Foreman like contender, 19-0 against 26-0 Byrd. Ike had previously beat the heavily touted 27-0 Tua in a record setting heavyweight bout now of legendary status. Helluva lot more proven than young Clay with the same record, blasted out of his skull by a little journeyman who had to wear ankle weights to make the heavy limit and then arguably outclassed and out slugged by another smallish LH barely making the heavy limit on the eve of his title challenge.

Like I say junior, Sonny never beat another top heavy after the ill fated Patterson series that convinced him he only needed to train for 6 rds. 40 yr old Sonny to be run into circles until his collapses without Byrd needing to lay a glove on him.

JiggaJayZ
05-04-2009, 08:32 PM
Wladmir is great for this era, but he would get destroyed by a lot of top heavyweights in history. I don't think he is top 20 heavyweights

GJC
05-04-2009, 09:38 PM
** Sorry there, Sunny Jim, pay attention, I said near his prime.

He turned pro at 22 according to his bogus birth cert he conjured up years later, but everyone knew he was more like 25, prime traditional age for heavies, indeed, most fighters.

He had extensive prep from pros in prison and was coming off of two consecutive wins over the highly regarded Summerlin, no choirboy he against little Monte. The reason Sonnyboy's "peak" came so late was down to his prison stint interupting his career just as he was entering fringe prospect stage. Might have even cracked the top ten just before his incarceration.

Personally, I sorta like the Big Bear, but this notion of him as a monster best understood that most of the guys he looked like a monster against were well under 200 lbs.

Facts are Byrd was better and beat better than any heavy Sonny ever beat. Byrd is one of the few who can make himself extremely tough against most styles. Not much smaller than Liston either or young Clay and near as speedy as Clay from a soutpaw stance.
So 5 years is near?

tunayflip
05-05-2009, 05:54 AM
Why doesnt klitschko get the same respect as former great fighters who were saftey first, had defence and always wasnt great to watch, such as jack johnson and gene tunney, tommy loughran, maxie rosenbloom. Wladimir has never avoided no one and is the true art of boxing hit and not be hit. After he shuts haye up i think he will get his due respect as a truly great fighter. On a side note how can bert sugar give this man no respect when he ranks fighters as maxi rosenbloom so high who got the nick name slapsie maxi cos he didnt want to commit to a puch so he would just slap or paw his punches. Bert is full of bull ****!

i have a problem with the way his fights our set up recently he fought Hasim Rahman only givin him 2 weeks to train and then he had to fly to Germany to fight? i also think its because he won't fight his brother which i can understand but the its best fight for heavyweights right now and they won't fight each other

LondonRingRules
05-05-2009, 05:58 AM
So 5 years is near?

** Sunny Jim, it goes like this:

With back to back wins over Johnny Summerlin, entering the flower of his physical prime and in obvious ascendency, yup, near prime.

Certainly much closer to prime than when Wlad was upset by Puritty who was only something like 60 lbs and a half foot taller than little Monte Marty Maybelle Marshall to reorient the discussion to the thread header.

5 yrs later Sonny's entering his peak, only delayed by legal problems and lack of opportunity.

LondonRingRules
05-05-2009, 06:14 AM
i have a problem with the way his fights our set up recently he fought Hasim Rahman only givin him 2 weeks to train and then he had to fly to Germany to fight?

** The problem ain't Wlad, it's that you don't understand the fight and venue set up many months in advance. His opponent, Povetkin, fell out due to injury.

Rahman a long time very active professional fighter was immediately mentioned as one of the favs for replacement, almost 6 weeks before the fight. It ain't never been easy negotiating terms for title fights, but that's how long it took.

Rahman had plenty of time to prepare.

tunayflip
05-05-2009, 06:23 AM
** The problem ain't Wlad, it's that you don't understand the fight and venue set up many months in advance. His opponent, Povetkin, fell out due to injury.

Rahman a long time very active professional fighter was immediately mentioned as one of the favs for replacement, almost 6 weeks before the fight. It ain't never been easy negotiating terms for title fights, but that's how long it took.

Rahman had plenty of time to prepare.

I know that wasn't Wlad fault it was Rahmans i jus don't like that fact that he tends to fight the smaller heavyweights when should be fightin the other titleholders cuz if you look at it right now there aren't really any good heavyweight fights except for a fight against the other belt holders which Wlad his fault but it keeps him from being as great a fighter as past heavyweight champs.

Hawk O'Connor
05-05-2009, 09:19 PM
** Need get your mama to change out that dim bulb the next time she swaps out your diapers sonnyboy.

Ike was a touted Foreman like contender, 19-0 against 26-0 Byrd. Ike had previously beat the heavily touted 27-0 Tua in a record setting heavyweight bout now of legendary status. Helluva lot more proven than young Clay with the same record, blasted out of his skull by a little journeyman who had to wear ankle weights to make the heavy limit and then arguably outclassed and out slugged by another smallish LH barely making the heavy limit on the eve of his title challenge.

Like I say junior, Sonny never beat another top heavy after the ill fated Patterson series that convinced him he only needed to train for 6 rds. 40 yr old Sonny to be run into circles until his collapses without Byrd needing to lay a glove on him.

Tua was ranked what number 8 at the time Ike beat him? Tua had yet to face anyone of quality, or anyone that was ranked, when he fought Ike.

Byrd wasn't even ranked and had to face anyone of any substance when he got blasted by Ike. So yes, Ike was unproven... tons of potential but unproven against the elite of the day.

As far as Ike being 'more proven' at 19-0 than Ali... most will beg to differ. At 19-0 Ali defeated Doug Jones (highly rated contender..#2 or 3 at the time), and Henry Cooper and Archie Moore. Both Cooper and Moore were rated and an old Archie Moore is more dangerous than anyone on Ike's record at the time.

With your heavy disdain for alot of older fighters, in regards to the pretenders of today, I'm starting to think that the 60's-70's fighters must have lined up and ran a train on your girl. Otherwise most of your venom is misplaced.

Regardless either make your claim that Wlad has any win, or combination of wins, that equal Ali's win over Foreman or drop it. That was your point of contention and you have yet to come anywhere near presenting a case for that point.

LondonRingRules
05-05-2009, 10:47 PM
As far as Ike being 'more proven' at 19-0 than Ali... most will beg to differ. At 19-0 Ali defeated Doug Jones (highly rated contender..#2 or 3 at the time), and Henry Cooper and Archie Moore. Both Cooper and Moore were rated and an old Archie Moore is more dangerous than anyone on Ike's record at the time.

With your heavy disdain for alot of older fighters, in regards to the pretenders of today, I'm starting to think

** You just now starting to think with your first little 8th grade glimmer eh?

I have no disdain for Doug Jones who was a fine era fighter, but praytellus who he ever beat to get ranked 2-3? The only wins of note prior to young Clay are some close scraps with Von Clay, was that young Cassius ranked half brother?

Then he beats former early 50s middle champ Bobo Olson and Pete Rademacher. Wow, 180 lb Dougie would've been a real ferocious mouse in the 90s, scampering about with Ike, Tua, Golota, Morrison, Bowe, Foreman, McCline, Tyson, UnHolyField, Briggs, McCall, Tyson, Mercer, Byrd, The Klitschkos.

Dropped 3 in a row to Machen, Harold Johnson and Folley, but wait, there's more, he beat a green 9-0 LH named Bob Foster and KOed Folley in the rematch. So, going into the Ali bout, on boxrec his comp bar would read 2-3-1over his last 6 fights and ranked 2 or 3 now, eh? Guess Rademacher was moved back to 3rd or 4th eh?

Musta had some of that Popkins mojo that sees him going 3-3 in his last 6 fights with only a single win over a legit LH, yet 3rd p4p and #1 in "his" LH division. Yeah, that ol' Pop's mojo, that's it.

50 yr old Archie Moore a threat? The same old man Rocky gets pounded for fighting the previous decade?

Look, Ol'Mongoose one of my favs, but at 50, if you can't see how ridiculous this looks, it's akin to a great historian trying to talk world history to Ronald McDonald.

Got me thinkin' though, how do you think it would've gone down, 40 yr old Ali against 50 yr ol'Mongoose.

Would the winner be ranked #1 most dangerous heavy of the 90s? Yupper, in the cartoon world according to Hawkins, the earth would have been knocked off it's axis, the moon wobbled and Superman's cape blown off in such a fight.

Hawk O'Connor
05-05-2009, 11:50 PM
** You just now starting to think with your first little 8th grade glimmer eh?

I wish you would actually think, it would end alot of the ridiculousness that spews forth from that shriveled up brain of yours.

I have no disdain for Doug Jones who was a fine era fighter, but praytellus who he ever beat to get ranked 2-3? The only wins of note prior to young Clay are some close scraps with Von Clay, was that young Cassius ranked half brother?

Then he beats former early 50s middle champ Bobo Olson and Pete Rademacher. Wow, 180 lb Dougie would've been a real ferocious mouse in the 90s, scampering about with Ike, Tua, Golota, Morrison, Bowe, Foreman, McCline, Tyson, UnHolyField, Briggs, McCall, Tyson, Mercer, Byrd, The Klitschkos.

Dropped 3 in a row to Machen, Harold Johnson and Folley, but wait, there's more, he beat a green 9-0 LH named Bob Foster and KOed Folley in the rematch. So, going into the Ali bout, on boxrec his comp bar would read 2-3-1over his last 6 fights and ranked 2 or 3 now, eh? Guess Rademacher was moved back to 3rd or 4th eh?

Musta had some of that Popkins mojo that sees him going 3-3 in his last 6 fights with only a single win over a legit LH, yet 3rd p4p and #1 in "his" LH division. Yeah, that ol' Pop's mojo, that's it.

50 yr old Archie Moore a threat? The same old man Rocky gets pounded for fighting the previous decade?

Look, Ol'Mongoose one of my favs, but at 50, if you can't see how ridiculous this looks, it's akin to a great historian trying to talk world history to Ronald McDonald.

Got me thinkin' though, how do you think it would've gone down, 40 yr old Ali against 50 yr ol'Mongoose.

Would the winner be ranked #1 most dangerous heavy of the 90s? Yupper, in the cartoon world according to Hawkins, the earth would have been knocked off it's axis, the moon wobbled and Superman's cape blown off in such a fight.

Coming into the Ibeabuchi fight 4 of the last 7 of Byrd's opponents were Ross Puritty, Jimmy Thunder, Frankie Swindell and Bert Cooper. Bert Cooper was 2-3 in his fights up to Byrd, Frankie Swindell was 3-4, Jimmy Thunder was 1-2, with a loss to John Ruiz of all people and Ross Puritty was 0-2, with losses to Larry Donald and Corrie Sanders.

Kinda shoots holes all thru your assertion that the Byrd win shows Ike as a "proven commodity". You STILL have yet to make any kind of argument that Wlad has any kind of win that remotely measures up to Ali's win over Foreman.

And do you know why?

Because you can't.

GJC
05-06-2009, 02:32 PM
** Sunny Jim, it goes like this:

With back to back wins over Johnny Summerlin, entering the flower of his physical prime and in obvious ascendency, yup, near prime.

Certainly much closer to prime than when Wlad was upset by Puritty who was only something like 60 lbs and a half foot taller than little Monte Marty Maybelle Marshall to reorient the discussion to the thread header.

5 yrs later Sonny's entering his peak, only delayed by legal problems and lack of opportunity.
You wouldn't say Liston was in his prime from 1959 to 1962 then?
Liston is one year into his pro career with 7 fights under his belt, Puritty was Wlad's 25th fight 2 years into his pro career. When you say re-orientating back to the thread header that would be that Ali was a small heavyweight and because Wlad is bigger he is bound to beat Ali?

Ziggy Stardust
05-06-2009, 08:01 PM
I wish you would actually think, it would end alot of the ridiculousness that spews forth from that shriveled up brain of yours.



Coming into the Ibeabuchi fight 4 of the last 7 of Byrd's opponents were Ross Puritty, Jimmy Thunder, Frankie Swindell and Bert Cooper. Bert Cooper was 2-3 in his fights up to Byrd, Frankie Swindell was 3-4, Jimmy Thunder was 1-2, with a loss to John Ruiz of all people and Ross Puritty was 0-2, with losses to Larry Donald and Corrie Sanders.

Kinda shoots holes all thru your assertion that the Byrd win shows Ike as a "proven commodity". You STILL have yet to make any kind of argument that Wlad has any kind of win that remotely measures up to Ali's win over Foreman.

And do you know why?

Because you can't.

Don't worry: He'll pull SOMETHING out of his ass I'm sure (and, no doubt, it will be indistinguishable from feces). Carry on!

Poet

MrChicagoBears
05-06-2009, 08:05 PM
Don't worry: He'll pull SOMETHING out of his ass I'm sure (and, no doubt, it will be indistinguishable from feces). Carry on!

Poet

agreed poet, knowing LRR he will comeback writing his big articles and using his comments and words that dont make a blind bit of sense!

trying to confuse people with science.

he hates ali that much, he is trying to make out wlad has fought better fighters. unbelivable!

LondonRingRules
05-06-2009, 08:12 PM
You wouldn't say Liston was in his prime from 1959 to 1962 then?
Liston is one year into his pro career with 7 fights under his belt, Puritty was Wlad's 25th fight 2 years into his pro career. When you say re-orientating back to the thread header that would be that Ali was a small heavyweight and because Wlad is bigger he is bound to beat Ali?

** What kind of "When did you stop beating your wife?" questions are those?

I said he was near prime for his Marshall defeat due to him being IN his physical prime and starting to enter his boxing prime with back to back wins over Summerlin. What part of near prime don't you understand?

Wlad was only 22 when he lost to Puritty, not a traditional prime age for big heavies. As I mentioned, it was down to bad management with that being his 25th fight coming off his first 2 years and just 3 weeks after his last fight. A 12 rounder against a massive, strong, very durable journeyman who's fought all the big names in the heavy ranks. Wlad was skinny, overworked and overtrained for the fight and had never been near 12 rds before. He was winning the shutout over 10. Very poor management and corner work. Fight not disimilar to Cooney falling apart in the 13th against Holmes without taking any punches. Boom, no more steam left.

Ali had never been past 10 rds in his life until he potshotted the sick Patterson around the ring in his 2nd defense. Biggest guy he'd been in the ring against was 225lb Duke Sabedong who was none to impressed with Ali and took him the 10 rd distance. Love to see that fight.

Ali vs Wlad would be great, but who wins depends on which version of each turns up. Ali more inconsistant than Wlad. Wlad would've handled all of Ali's opposition and schedule pretty easy up until Frazier. Guys like Banks and Cooper wouldn't be knocking him down and he'd KO Jones. Wlad also handled Byrd quite easily, a small, very quick and elusive heavy like Ali.

I don't see anyone on Wlad's schedule who would trouble young Clay until Byrd whom I would pick to beat him because of the Mildenberger performance in his prime. Byrd much trickier southpaw with more credentials. Shultz and Barrett were prime solid contenders and would've been good scraps.

I question whether Ali could maintain that early pace of Wlad's schedule that gives Wlad a fight every month for 2 yrs against fighters much bigger and stronger than Ali used to facing. If he has an off day against Banks, Cooper, and Jones, much easier to come back against a 180 lber than a 240lber.

As to the other ninny claiming Byrd had no credentials, well, he was a storied amateur and Olympic middleweight silver medalist whom nobody wanted to fight because of his style. Going into Ike, his last six opponents record avg was 24-9, including the massive Puritty who's ended up being on most heavy contender records, former title contender Cooper who was just as hot and cold and relevant as he was against UnHoly, and the unbeaten prospect Eliser Castillo.

Byrd had also shut out Phil Jackson who contended for Lewis's title the year before.

Say what you will about Ike, Tua, and Byrd, but this in the day when young contenders weren't afraid to fight each other or anyone who dared step into the ring with them.

Ziggy Stardust
05-06-2009, 08:16 PM
agreed poet, knowing LRR he will comeback writing his big articles and using his comments and words that dont make a blind bit of sense!

trying to confuse people with science.

he hates ali that much, he is trying to make out wlad has fought better fighters. unbelivable!

Yeah, it's typical. A word of advice though: If you're going to make a thread taking on an established poster it's better to wait until you've made enough posts to give yourself a track record. Otherwise people will simply figure you're an alt or a newbie: Either way you'll catch some heat. Alts are frowned upon in the serious forums (such as Boxing History); and longtime posters will circle the wagons around a fellow longtime poster if a newbie has a go at him. Just a friendly FYI. Now go build up you post count so you can take the piss out him from a solid foundation :D

Poet

them_apples
05-06-2009, 09:53 PM
** What kind of "When did you stop beating your wife?" questions are those?

I said he was near prime for his Marshall defeat due to him being IN his physical prime and starting to enter his boxing prime with back to back wins over Summerlin. What part of near prime don't you understand?

Wlad was only 22 when he lost to Puritty, not a traditional prime age for big heavies. As I mentioned, it was down to bad management with that being his 25th fight coming off his first 2 years and just 3 weeks after his last fight. A 12 rounder against a massive, strong, very durable journeyman who's fought all the big names in the heavy ranks. Wlad was skinny, overworked and overtrained for the fight and had never been near 12 rds before. He was winning the shutout over 10. Very poor management and corner work. Fight not disimilar to Cooney falling apart in the 13th against Holmes without taking any punches. Boom, no more steam left.

Ali had never been past 10 rds in his life until he potshotted the sick Patterson around the ring in his 2nd defense. Biggest guy he'd been in the ring against was 225lb Duke Sabedong who was none to impressed with Ali and took him the 10 rd distance. Love to see that fight.

Ali vs Wlad would be great, but who wins depends on which version of each turns up. Ali more inconsistant than Wlad. Wlad would've handled all of Ali's opposition and schedule pretty easy up until Frazier. Guys like Banks and Cooper wouldn't be knocking him down and he'd KO Jones. Wlad also handled Byrd quite easily, a small, very quick and elusive heavy like Ali.

I don't see anyone on Wlad's schedule who would trouble young Clay until Byrd whom I would pick to beat him because of the Mildenberger performance in his prime. Byrd much trickier southpaw with more credentials. Shultz and Barrett were prime solid contenders and would've been good scraps.

I question whether Ali could maintain that early pace of Wlad's schedule that gives Wlad a fight every month for 2 yrs against fighters much bigger and stronger than Ali used to facing. If he has an off day against Banks, Cooper, and Jones, much easier to come back against a 180 lber than a 240lber.

As to the other ninny claiming Byrd had no credentials, well, he was a storied amateur and Olympic middleweight silver medalist whom nobody wanted to fight because of his style. Going into Ike, his last six opponents record avg was 24-9, including the massive Puritty who's ended up being on most heavy contender records, former title contender Cooper who was just as hot and cold and relevant as he was against UnHoly, and the unbeaten prospect Eliser Castillo.

Byrd had also shut out Phil Jackson who contended for Lewis's title the year before.

Say what you will about Ike, Tua, and Byrd, but this in the day when young contenders weren't afraid to fight each other or anyone who dared step into the ring with them.

maybe I misunderstood you, but chris byrd beating Ali? that soft cruiserweight?

I agree Ali was inconsistent, which sort of makes it hard when you pit him up in Fantasy fights, but pick him on a good day and he knocks Wlad out.

The Ali that fought Frazier the first time (even though he lost) or the one that fought Liston, those were solid versions of Ali that I don't think Wlad could handle.

I might get heat for saying Ali was in good shape for the first Frazier fight, but I believe he would have lost the third fight, and Frazier just wasn't as good in the second fight.

Either way, he went toe to toe with Frazier, a tougher mother fker, Wlad isn't going to be able to deal with a guy as determined as Ali.

GJC
05-07-2009, 11:28 AM
What part of near prime don't you understand?

Do you not think Liston was in his prime around 1959? I just don't count 5 years as near



Wlad was only 22 when he lost to Puritty, not a traditional prime age for big heavies.

I'm struggling to think of a fighter who would beat a 22yo Clay or many that would beat a 22yo Tyson come to that.


As I mentioned, it was down to bad management with that being his 25th fight coming off his first 2 years and just 3 weeks after his last fight.

His last fight which lasted a round. Most of his fights were lasting around a couple of rounds so I wouldn't have said he was being overworked. A lot of fighters keep busy early days knocking over tomato cans in a round.



I don't see anyone on Wlad's schedule who would trouble young Clay until Byrd whom I would pick to beat him because of the Mildenberger performance in his prime. Byrd much trickier southpaw with more credentials. Shultz and Barrett were prime solid contenders and would've been good scraps.

Don't doubt that Byrd is a better fighter than Midenberger but lets get the Midenberger fight into perspective, he won 2 maybe 3 rounds.



I question whether Ali could maintain that early pace of Wlad's schedule that gives Wlad a fight every month for 2 yrs against fighters much bigger and stronger than Ali used to facing.


Wlad had more fights because he knocked out tomato cans,Ali fought more rounds in 2 years. Ali Wasn't a knockout specialist so was never likely to walk up to a lump and knock him out with one punch


So to summarise you have Wlad and Byrd beating Ali?

Ziggy Stardust
05-07-2009, 01:10 PM
Don't doubt that Byrd is a better fighter than Midenberger but lets get the Midenberger fight into perspective, he won 2 maybe 3 rounds.

Bear in mind LRR probably scored that fight for Midenberger. :rofl: He's also famous for saying Earnie Terell gave Ali ALL sorts of problems :rofl: :rofl: Yeah right: Problems like "do I ask Earnie 'what's my name?' after I punch him five or six times in the face or wait until after the next time I punch him five or six times in the face?" :rofl:

Poet

GJC
05-07-2009, 01:30 PM
Bear in mind LRR probably scored that fight for Midenberger. :rofl: He's also famous for saying Earnie Terell gave Ali ALL sorts of problems :rofl: :rofl: Yeah right: Problems like "do I ask Earnie 'what's my name?' after I punch him five or six times in the face or wait until after the next time I punch him five or six times in the face?" :rofl:

Poet
But Terell's bigger, sure it wasn't a hometown decision?

Hawk O'Connor
05-07-2009, 01:32 PM
Bear in mind LRR probably scored that fight for Midenberger. :rofl: He's also famous for saying Earnie Terell gave Ali ALL sorts of problems :rofl: :rofl: Yeah right: Problems like "do I ask Earnie 'what's my name?' after I punch him five or six times in the face or wait until after the next time I punch him five or six times in the face?" :rofl:

Poet

I laughed so hard at this I got choked on my Sobe... that sad part is that is exactly something LRR has said and alluded to.

LondonRingRules
05-07-2009, 11:57 PM
Do you not think Liston was in his prime around 1959? I just don't count 5 years as near

I'm struggling to think of a fighter who would beat a 22yo Clay or many that would beat a 22yo Tyson come to that.

His last fight which lasted a round. Most of his fights were lasting around a couple of rounds so I wouldn't have said he was being overworked. A lot of fighters keep busy early days knocking over tomato cans in a round.

Don't doubt that Byrd is a better fighter than Midenberger but lets get the Midenberger fight into perspective, he won 2 maybe 3 rounds.

Wlad had more fights because he knocked out tomato cans,Ali fought more rounds in 2 years. Ali Wasn't a knockout specialist so was never likely to walk up to a lump and knock him out with one punch

So to summarise you have Wlad and Byrd beating Ali?

** Sunny Jim, it's like this, don't matter what I think, it's what I know that counts.

Whereas you're more a stream conciousness type of guy, spouting off random nonsense. Liston beat prized prospect Summerlin twice who a short time later knocks Folley's applecart over, the first ever. Liston was in his prime years and progressing rapidly, near ideal prime. Entering his actual comprehensive prime years was delayed by incarceration and having to reset for a couple of years upon release. Way you got it worded his prime was only 1959, just silly.

Seein' how it's arguable that Jones and Cooper did beat the 21 yr old Clay who couldn't keep his rump off the canvas coming up, it's easy for me to imagine him at 22 being beat. Tyson is the only 22 yr old heavy in history that could be proven as close to unbeatable as any fighter ever has been.

Hard to believe you still ain't figured out its bad for a fighter to stay in training for potentially 94 rds all year. Sure, some oldtimers did it, but that's why their records are liberally sprinkled with losses. Many of Wlad's "tomato cans" had excellent records and many era champs and contenders found in their records beside Wlad.

Sunny Jim, you reveal yourself to disparage great fighters when you disparage the lessers they have to fight. Very typical American blowhard position of everyone not #1 is a loser.

My little friend, even Cosell about choked on his toupee in the Mildi fight he was so worried about Ali. Great finish by Ali, but Byrd is several classes above Mildi and I would pick him over a prime Ali. He never had to face the line up of lefties Wlad has faced.

To summerise Sunny Jim, it's you that has me having Wlad beating Ali. I'm not nearly so simpleminded as to make such an unproven assertion. Ever hear of odds Jim? Most every fighter who's existed was given chances by odds makers to beat the other fighter and the odds always shifting. Match Ali/Wlad up by age or by consecutive title fights it would be back and forth with the current edge in the series going to Wlad. He dominates boxers and has to take care with big sluggers, just the opposite of Ali who struggled with boxers and was able to handle the sluggers era save Frazier.

I see someone let out the little banty roosters that crowd around you, kicking up their heels and crowing nonsense. Nice that you found some feathered friends Jim, now you take care ol' Mr. Fox don't think you to be a friend of the feathers............:cool::cool3:

GJC
05-08-2009, 01:00 AM
Way you got it worded his prime was only 1959, just silly.


No keep up, I said from 59-62. Silly is saying a fighter is near prime after 7 fights.


Seein' how it's arguable that Jones and Cooper did beat the 21 yr old Clay who couldn't keep his rump off the canvas coming up, it's easy for me to imagine him at 22 being beat.

Probably only arguable by you and yes I'm sure you could imagine that. 22,32 or probably even 42 Byrd or Wlad don't have enough to beat him.


Sunny Jim, you reveal yourself to disparage great fighters when you disparage the lessers they have to fight. Very typical American blowhard position of everyone not #1 is a loser.

So it's ok for you to disparage the fighters that Ali has beat? Also I'm not American but don't let that fact get in the way, nothing else has.


My little friend, even Cosell about choked on his toupee in the Mildi fight he was so worried about Ali. Great finish by Ali, but Byrd is several classes above Mildi and I would pick him over a prime Ali. He never had to face the line up of lefties Wlad has faced.

ok how many rounds did you have "Mildi" winning?
He fought 2 southpaws and lost probably 2 or 3 rounds in total.
So you believe that Byrd will beat a prime Ali???


To summerise Sunny Jim, it's you that has me having Wlad beating Ali. I'm not nearly so simpleminded as to make such an unproven assertion.

You have Byrd beating Ali and it sounds to me that you favour Wlad over Ali.
So clarify then, Wlad would lose to Byrd but beat Ali then?


I see someone let out the little banty roosters that crowd around you, kicking up their heels and crowing nonsense. Nice that you found some feathered friends Jim, now you take care ol' Mr. Fox don't think you to be a friend of the feathers............:cool::cool3:
Don't need a crowd around me, your arguments don't stand up is the reason no one is agreeing with you. What is the problem with Ali, is it because he is a bit "uppity" for your neck of the woods?

j
05-08-2009, 06:52 AM
some interesting arguments mostly. well, except for people with that follower type personality.

i am considered to be pretty neutral in regards to historical matchups. for me, in the case of ali vs w klitschko, it is hard for me to imagine ali putting a beating to wladimir. i just cant see wlad falling into any trap ali could set, or ali having an easy time getting past a highly accurate, fast and agile rifle of a jab that wlad has. not to mention that his right hand, when committed, has as much power as any heavyweight has had.

ali does have a pedigree in bicycling. to me, his outside movement looks more like what dlh was accused of in - well u know what fight i mean.

but, i can see how ali is tricky. and ali does have some pop. he is, however, also a very small guy comparitively to opponents who wladimir has dismantled.

btw, wlad was not "ktfo" in a purrity fight. he was never knocked down in that fight. the sanders fight, legit loss - that happens when u dont take training seriously as u think your opponent is nothing. and brewster - that is a circumstance i am willing to side with the klitschko camp on.

yeah, i consider both bros as top fighters in an ATG way. wlad has more accomplishments though. both are clearly throwback fighters who like to fight as often as they can.

j
05-08-2009, 06:56 AM
i think a byrd vs ali fight would be closer than some people think. byrd was never afraid to fight anyone - just look at who he fought. ali, well, it kinda looked like he was a few times. some of these moments from shows where he is face to face with his opponents stick in my mind. but, credit for fighting most of the baddest guys in his time - just as byrd did though. i think ali's talking is actually an aid to ali to pump him up and prepare him for a fight.

i would have loved to see a byrd vs ali fight - with neutral refs of course. people forget how crooked boxing can be sometimes.

RightCross94
05-08-2009, 07:00 AM
** Sunny Jim, it's like this, don't matter what I think, it's what I know that counts.

Whereas you're more a stream conciousness type of guy, spouting off random nonsense. Liston beat prized prospect Summerlin twice who a short time later knocks Folley's applecart over, the first ever. Liston was in his prime years and progressing rapidly, near ideal prime. Entering his actual comprehensive prime years was delayed by incarceration and having to reset for a couple of years upon release. Way you got it worded his prime was only 1959, just silly.

Seein' how it's arguable that Jones and Cooper did beat the 21 yr old Clay who couldn't keep his rump off the canvas coming up, it's easy for me to imagine him at 22 being beat. Tyson is the only 22 yr old heavy in history that could be proven as close to unbeatable as any fighter ever has been.

Hard to believe you still ain't figured out its bad for a fighter to stay in training for potentially 94 rds all year. Sure, some oldtimers did it, but that's why their records are liberally sprinkled with losses. Many of Wlad's "tomato cans" had excellent records and many era champs and contenders found in their records beside Wlad.

Sunny Jim, you reveal yourself to disparage great fighters when you disparage the lessers they have to fight. Very typical American blowhard position of everyone not #1 is a loser.

My little friend, even Cosell about choked on his toupee in the Mildi fight he was so worried about Ali. Great finish by Ali, but Byrd is several classes above Mildi and I would pick him over a prime Ali. He never had to face the line up of lefties Wlad has faced.

To summerise Sunny Jim, it's you that has me having Wlad beating Ali. I'm not nearly so simpleminded as to make such an unproven assertion. Ever hear of odds Jim? Most every fighter who's existed was given chances by odds makers to beat the other fighter and the odds always shifting. Match Ali/Wlad up by age or by consecutive title fights it would be back and forth with the current edge in the series going to Wlad. He dominates boxers and has to take care with big sluggers, just the opposite of Ali who struggled with boxers and was able to handle the sluggers era save Frazier.

I see someone let out the little banty roosters that crowd around you, kicking up their heels and crowing nonsense. Nice that you found some feathered friends Jim, now you take care ol' Mr. Fox don't think you to be a friend of the feathers............:cool::cool3:

the parts in bold made me laugh, you truly are a biased idiot with a painfully obvious agenda against ali

Southpaw16BF
05-08-2009, 08:38 AM
Hard to believe you still ain't figured out its bad for a fighter to stay in training for potentially 94 rds all year. Sure, some oldtimers did it, but that's why their records are liberally sprinkled with losses.

Harry Greb once had a record 45 in one year (1919) and would win of all of them. And these weren't against just half decent fighters. In those 45 fights Greb beat very good contenders and former champion including Bill Brennan, Battling Levinsky, Billy Miske, Mike Gibbons, Mike McTigue, to name a few.

j
05-08-2009, 08:46 AM
the parts in bold made me laugh, you truly are a biased idiot with a painfully obvious agenda against ali

i dont see him as biased. i see him as a person who doesnt follow what everyone else thinks. these people usually have insights others dont.

hey, i have fought, and i am trained. i can read more into a boxers mind than people who dont train any fighting style. so, i can say with confidence that londonringrules does have valid points.

Ziggy Stardust
05-08-2009, 12:47 PM
i dont see him as biased. i see him as a person who doesnt follow what everyone else thinks. these people usually have insights others dont.

hey, i have fought, and i am trained. i can read more into a boxers mind than people who dont train any fighting style. so, i can say with confidence that londonringrules does have valid points.

Actually, where I come from people like LRR are refered to as "The Village Idiot": ie. someone whose pronouncments are so non-sensical, counter-factual, and generally out of left field that people wonder why the pour soul hasn't been instituionalized yet. In the academic environs I've had the opportunities to mingle such demented thinkers are refered to as "crack pots".

Poet

j
05-08-2009, 01:19 PM
Actually, where I come from people like LRR are refered to as "The Village Idiot": ie. someone whose pronouncments are so non-sensical, counter-factual, and generally out of left field that people wonder why the pour soul hasn't been instituionalized yet. In the academic environs I've had the opportunities to mingle such demented thinkers are refered to as "crack pots".

Poet

well, in light of his comments pertaining to mine on a different posts, those i would agree with u in.

but on this thread he does have some good points.

for me, i think wladimir could be a handfull in any time. it is just my opinion. but as long as we dont make our opinions to be too personal, we can have good discussion.

thanks for being level headed btw.

rican4life
05-08-2009, 01:24 PM
well let me say i respect his fighting ability he is a good technical boxer for a man as big as he is!! I may like his brother better but I respect his ability, Iam going for hayes but it would not surprise me one bit if he beat hayes..

Ziggy Stardust
05-08-2009, 01:27 PM
well, in light of his comments pertaining to mine on a different posts, those i would agree with u in.

but on this thread he does have some good points.

for me, i think wladimir could be a handfull in any time. it is just my opinion. but as long as we dont make our opinions to be too personal, we can have good discussion.

thanks for being level headed btw.

Caught me on a good day :D Naw, I'm easily trolled but if someone wants to keep it a serious discussion and not turn things into a fan club for there favorite fighter I'm pretty good.

Poet

GJC
05-08-2009, 03:47 PM
i dont see him as biased. i see him as a person who doesnt follow what everyone else thinks. these people usually have insights others dont.

hey, i have fought, and i am trained. i can read more into a boxers mind than people who dont train any fighting style. so, i can say with confidence that londonringrules does have valid points.
I'm all for free thinking and don't believe anyone should run with the pack if their opinion is different. That said there can be a case of why is everyone in the group marching out of step except me.
Also knowing a lot of facts as this fellow undoubtedly does and applying them are two different things. I know all the ingredients for a Bouillabaisse but I can't cook one.
Amending facts to turn a fight that Ali clearly one with lots to spare, i.e. the Mildenberger fight, into a close decision/epic battle is not giving an opinion its altering facts. I'm all for sticking up for your fighter and putting his strengths but denigrating another fighter with outlandish claims is not on.

LondonRingRules
05-08-2009, 05:55 PM
Harry Greb once had a record 45 in one year (1919) and would win of all of them. And these weren't against just half decent fighters. In those 45 fights Greb beat very good contenders and former champion including Bill Brennan, Battling Levinsky, Billy Miske, Mike Gibbons, Mike McTigue, to name a few.

** Thank you for making my point in spades.

By the time Harry turned 23, his record was 64-9-10, liberally sprinkled with losses/NDs/"newspaper decisions" and draws. Most of his bouts were 6 rds, though he eventually made some 10-20 rds. He was fighting often enough that he probably did very little sparring.

Wlad is actually a throwback to the days of Louis, having a similar number of bouts at the same age as Louis. At age 20, Ali had 6 fights, age 21-3, age 22-1, age 23-2, age 24-5, much more carefully brought along than Wlad having 25 fights in two years before his 23rd birthday.

Now as to Sunny Jim, I know you dears want to have Ali gliding upon the waters in a golden mist, casting pimples out of young boys and endowing them with hair upon their caved in chests, but as a fighter he was quite inconsistent in his performances. 5 got to him officially, and arguably 5 unofficially and another 5 that he clearly won, but looked horrible in. In his comeback he was as often as not at least a little out of shape if not a lot out of shape and even his main cheerleader, Cosell, complained about those things.

Every fighter has flaws, and Wlad has his, but in a hypothetical, Wlad is a bad match up for Ali. Sure, we can match the worst of Ali against the best of Wlad, but I prefer to match them in a random series by age or by title fights, or by matching their opponents against each other, or best to best which is much more subjective as best is arguable on top of who wins.

Best to best would be the 72 Ali who went on a tear that year against 5 solid contenders in 6 fights, age 30, against the 30 yr old Wlad who carefully trained for some extra speed against Byrd in the rematch and knocked him out in 7 for his IBF title. Wlad followed Byrd with 7th KO of undefeated Brock and 2nd demo of Austin.

Ali was pretty much flawless in 72, in shape, and obviously motivated, better than his 66 yr which is highly overrated. I'd pick Wlad, but wouldn't discount an Ali win.

GJC
05-08-2009, 07:41 PM
** Thank you for making my point in spades.

By the time Harry turned 23, his record was 64-9-10, liberally sprinkled with losses/NDs/"newspaper decisions" and draws. Most of his bouts were 6 rds, though he eventually made some 10-20 rds. He was fighting often enough that he probably did very little sparring.

Wlad is actually a throwback to the days of Louis, having a similar number of bouts at the same age as Louis. At age 20, Ali had 6 fights, age 21-3, age 22-1, age 23-2, age 24-5, much more carefully brought along than Wlad having 25 fights in two years before his 23rd birthday.

Now as to Sunny Jim, I know you dears want to have Ali gliding upon the waters in a golden mist, casting pimples out of young boys and endowing them with hair upon their caved in chests, but as a fighter he was quite inconsistent in his performances. 5 got to him officially, and arguably 5 unofficially and another 5 that he clearly won, but looked horrible in. In his comeback he was as often as not at least a little out of shape if not a lot out of shape and even his main cheerleader, Cosell, complained about those things.

Every fighter has flaws, and Wlad has his, but in a hypothetical, Wlad is a bad match up for Ali. Sure, we can match the worst of Ali against the best of Wlad, but I prefer to match them in a random series by age or by title fights, or by matching their opponents against each other, or best to best which is much more subjective as best is arguable on top of who wins.

Best to best would be the 72 Ali who went on a tear that year against 5 solid contenders in 6 fights, age 30, against the 30 yr old Wlad who carefully trained for some extra speed against Byrd in the rematch and knocked him out in 7 for his IBF title. Wlad followed Byrd with 7th KO of undefeated Brock and 2nd demo of Austin.

Ali was pretty much flawless in 72, in shape, and obviously motivated, better than his 66 yr which is highly overrated. I'd pick Wlad, but wouldn't discount an Ali win.
OK boy, can I just clarify a few points and I would love it if you could content yourself with short answers to the questions rather than coming up with longer sentences than Judge Jeffries.

1) Do you think that 90s Foreman was better than 70s Foreman?
2) Both Wlad and Byrd all things being equal would beat Ali ?
3) How many rounds do you give Mildenberger in his fight against Ali?
4) What % do you make McCline against Frazier, e.g. 50/50,55/45?
5) How long would you say on average does a fighters peak last and when would you say Liston's peak was?
And finally the big one, by all means include your top 10 or 20 list.
6) Where do you rank Ali in your personal ATG list?

6 very simple questions which I am very interested to hear the answers to, is that simple enough boy?

Ziggy Stardust
05-08-2009, 07:47 PM
OK boy, can I just clarify a few points and I would love it if you could content yourself with short answers to the questions rather than coming up with longer sentences than Judge Jeffries.

1) Do you think that 90s Foreman was better than 70s Foreman?
2) Both Wlad and Byrd all things being equal would beat Ali ?
3) How many rounds do you give Mildenberger in his fight against Ali?
4) What % do you make McCline against Frazier, e.g. 50/50,55/45?
5) How long would you say on average does a fighters peak last and when would you say Liston's peak was?
And finally the big one, by all means include your top 10 or 20 list.
6) Where do you rank Ali in your personal ATG list?

6 very simple questions which I am very interested to hear the answers to, is that simple enough boy?

You're starting to sound like ME :rofl:

Poet

Southpaw16BF
05-08-2009, 08:02 PM
Thank you for making my point in spades.

By the time Harry turned 23, his record was 64-9-10, liberally sprinkled with losses/NDs/"newspaper decisions" and draws. Most of his bouts were 6 rds, though he eventually made some 10-20 rds. He was fighting often enough that he probably did very little sparring.

And? There is still no taking away the fact Harry Greb had 45 fight in 1919 and won every single one of them. And you may see alot of Newspaper decisions on Greb's record, but don't be fooled as I have explained in the past, ''No decison fights'' as they are often called were still the norm in alot of the boxing world, this meaning alot of bouts would likely end this way.

Now for example fighitng was legal in New York when Harry Greb was fighting, but no decsion bouts were the norm in Grebs hometown Pitsburgh were he was doing most of his fighting, so thats why alot of Grebs fight are no decision or newspaper decisions. Now Greb should of won alot of these no decision bouts but didn't as they were the norm in Pitsburgh.

And once again you are wrong, you say Greb probaly done very little sparring. What!Greb was always training and especailly sparring, he always fit time into his traning and sparring, the myth that he was a drinker and trainer cound't be further from the truth.

From day one I get the impression you don't know much about Greb. Like I said you should research on him, you will learn alot.


__________________

GJC
05-08-2009, 08:35 PM
You're starting to sound like ME :rofl:

Poet
ooo now that is a low blow :)

Ziggy Stardust
05-08-2009, 08:40 PM
ooo now that is a low blow :)

:haha: :rofl:

polybus
05-08-2009, 11:50 PM
forman said him self
as soon as the russians can compeat thell take over
wounder why he thought this
look what happend

LondonRingRules
05-09-2009, 11:52 AM
OK boy, can I just clarify a few points and I would love it if you could content yourself with short answers to the questions rather than coming up with longer sentences than Judge Jeffries.

1) Do you think that 90s Foreman was better than 70s Foreman?
2) Both Wlad and Byrd all things being equal would beat Ali ?
3) How many rounds do you give Mildenberger in his fight against Ali?
4) What % do you make McCline against Frazier, e.g. 50/50,55/45?
5) How long would you say on average does a fighters peak last and when would you say Liston's peak was?
And finally the big one, by all means include your top 10 or 20 list.
6) Where do you rank Ali in your personal ATG list?

6 very simple questions which I am very interested to hear the answers to, is that simple enough boy?

** Great, you want me to answer an invalid question you make up.

1. In some respects, better, in other respects, worse.
2. No things are ever in stasis or equal on a day to day basis in any fighter.
3. Not gonna go search my scoring records for this. I used Uncle Howie's opinion as the basis of my own commentary.
4. McCline/Frazier wouldn't stay in stasis. McCline of Wlad against Joe of Ali 1 would be around 40/60
5. Average fighter is an average journeyman with an average peak of 1 yr. Liston's peak obviously 59-62.
6. My ATG list can be found as easily by you in the top thread header where you can see Ali's ratings by me and a hundred others.

GJC
05-09-2009, 12:43 PM
** Great, you want me to answer an invalid question you make up.

1. In some respects, better, in other respects, worse.
2. No things are ever in stasis or equal on a day to day basis in any fighter.
3. Not gonna go search my scoring records for this. I used Uncle Howie's opinion as the basis of my own commentary.
4. McCline/Frazier wouldn't stay in stasis. McCline of Wlad against Joe of Ali 1 would be around 40/60
5. Average fighter is an average journeyman with an average peak of 1 yr. Liston's peak obviously 59-62.
6. My ATG list can be found as easily by you in the top thread header where you can see Ali's ratings by me and a hundred others.
Not really invalid, 1st 5 questions were clarifying statements you have made in this thread. Last question was to satisfy my curiosity. You answered number 4 and 5, fudged 1 to 3 and redirected me on number 6. Still better than I was hoping for, thankyou.

GJC
05-09-2009, 03:34 PM
** Great, you want me to answer an invalid question you make up.

1. In some respects, better, in other respects, worse.
2. No things are ever in stasis or equal on a day to day basis in any fighter.
3. Not gonna go search my scoring records for this. I used Uncle Howie's opinion as the basis of my own commentary.
4. McCline/Frazier wouldn't stay in stasis. McCline of Wlad against Joe of Ali 1 would be around 40/60
5. Average fighter is an average journeyman with an average peak of 1 yr. Liston's peak obviously 59-62.
6. My ATG list can be found as easily by you in the top thread header where you can see Ali's ratings by me and a hundred others.
Sorry struggling to find your list, is it the following or is that a list of someone else you are quoting?:

1. Jack Johnson
2. Jim Jeffries
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Jack Dempsey
5. James J. Corbett
6. Joe Louis
7. Sam Langford
8. Gene Tunney
9. Max Schmeling
10. Rocky Marciano

Southpaw16BF
05-12-2009, 03:32 PM
In all honestly I do feel Wladamir dosen't quite get the credit he deserves. There is no douting he is a very skilled and dedicated fighter. He has a great offence and is at times hard to hit. His jab is one of the best in the game, sharp and very accurate, when he uses it his right cross is one of the hardest punchers in boxing, and can KO most heavyweights.

He also has a great boxing brain and moves his feet well and has brillant timing. Now i do not deny the fight that at times, there is no dout Klitschko is a caution first fighter and dosen't like to take lots of risks, his chin is alo a weak point. But is this such a bad thing.

The art of boxing is to hit and not be hit, Wladmir isn't on his own. Jack Johnson at times could be caution first and let a fight drag on, when the opponet is there for the taking. As the thread starter pointed out Maxie Rosenbloom was known as ''Slapsie Maxie'' and at times would hit you with a open glove and slap, not even putting the full power into his glove or shot.

But yet Klitschko is attacked because of it, but he isn't as cautious as some people make out, he owns a KO percentage of 83.64%. and has knocked 46 out of 52 wins

I feel the reason Klitscko is disliked, is due to the fact alot of the USA Public can't accept him. They can't accept the fact that a Eastern European is World Heavyweight Champion, a man who is a thinking first fighter.

The USA and most of the world don't want this, they want a KO artist who fighters fear and is beast in and out of the ring, they want excitment and drama. Thats why Jack Dempsey and Mike Tyson were so loved adored.

And another thing is, Bert Sugar claims Heavyweight Champions need to KO People, hmmmm..... But yet Jack Johnson and Gene Tunney were never always knocking out fighters in there reigns, but Bert can accept them. Bert Sugar at times can make me laugh, with his bogus comments.

At the end of the day, Wladamir Klitschko is a world class fighter, and may be remembered better when retired but I dout it. Him and Haye should be a very intereting one and a fight that should get the publics's attention.

Flicker Jab
05-12-2009, 06:19 PM
Why doesnt klitschko get the same respect as former great fighters who were saftey first, had defence and always wasnt great to watch, such as jack johnson and gene tunney, tommy loughran, maxie rosenbloom. Wladimir has never avoided no one and is the true art of boxing hit and not be hit. After he shuts haye up i think he will get his due respect as a truly great fighter. On a side note how can bert sugar give this man no respect when he ranks fighters as maxi rosenbloom so high who got the nick name slapsie maxi cos he didnt want to commit to a puch so he would just slap or paw his punches. Bert is full of bull ****!

I don't really see what you are trying to say...

Look at the history of the sport through another person's perspective other than Sugar.....? I mean, the answer is pretty self-evident...I'm guessing you made this thread to sound intelligent, when in truth you're just a thumb-in-ass noob who bought a copy of Bert Sugar on Boxing.