View Full Version : Ray Robinson in his prime


TheGreatA
04-22-2009, 03:21 PM
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warp1432
04-22-2009, 03:22 PM
AMAZING FIND how the hell did you get this?

TheGreatA
04-22-2009, 03:27 PM
AMAZING FIND how the hell did you get this?

These were uploaded by baltazarbrothers (formerly jmc713) who has a great boxing collection.

Register to his site to find many more rare films:
http://www.boxingpreservation.com/

45 year old Ray Robinson:

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TheGreatA
04-26-2009, 08:46 AM
Footage of Sugar Ray Robinson as a welterweight in his title defense against Charley Fusari:

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He had trouble making the weight at this point of his career.

LondonRingRules
04-26-2009, 11:17 PM
He had trouble making the weight at this point of his career.

** Can't figure why he didn't strip his shorts down and spit out his gum.

This his last welt fight. 2nd to last was the Gavilan title fight with 13 middle bouts in between.

Fusari a modest boxer with a good record fairly padded out. He's unwilling to go after the title and Robinson content to lay outside and box relaxed. More feints than punches and more bouncing around outside than anything.

Not a flattering fight. Fusari 2-4 after this and retires. The other guys look like muscled up stiffs. I'm fairly sure Ray boxed to the level of his threat, and Fusari was zero threat, plus he seemed to have a friendship with Charley.

ßringer
04-27-2009, 06:27 AM
Incredible doesn't even begin to describe how amazing these finds are.

Great looking out Manchine.

TheGreatA
04-27-2009, 07:53 AM
** Can't figure why he didn't strip his shorts down and spit out his gum.

This his last welt fight. 2nd to last was the Gavilan title fight with 13 middle bouts in between.

Fusari a modest boxer with a good record fairly padded out. He's unwilling to go after the title and Robinson content to lay outside and box relaxed. More feints than punches and more bouncing around outside than anything.

Not a flattering fight. Fusari 2-4 after this and retires. The other guys look like muscled up stiffs. I'm fairly sure Ray boxed to the level of his threat, and Fusari was zero threat, plus he seemed to have a friendship with Charley.

For some reason the film doesn't show Robinson knocking down Fusari and hurting him a couple of times throughout the fight.

More moments of the fight at 2:20 of this video:

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Fusari was not one of Robinson's best challengers although he did once beat Rocky Castellani but lost most of the time when he stepped up in class. I've heard rumours that Robinson "carried" Fusari for the 15 round distance although I'm not certain whether this is true or not.

Most of the opponents were nobodies except for the great middleweight contender Robert Villemain whom Robinson KO's in the second video that I posted in this thread.

TheGreatA
04-27-2009, 08:24 AM
The other opponents were Jean Stock (first vid), a decent European level competitor who once stopped a young Randy Turpin, an over the hill Jean Walzack (4th vid) and Hans Stretz (3rd vid), the German middleweight and light heavyweight champion.

wmute
04-27-2009, 01:40 PM
Glad you posted this, Manchine. Maybe when people see this footage of a younger more explosive Robinson they will stop starting threads, on the line "What's so special about Ray Robinson?".

His fights after 1955 are a testament to what amazing athlete he was, even when he was not superman anymore, he still had so much fight left in him...

Ziggy Stardust
04-27-2009, 02:32 PM
Glad you posted this, Manchine. Maybe when people see this footage of a younger more explosive Robinson they will stop starting threads, on the line "What's so special about Ray Robinson?".

His fights after 1955 are a testament to what amazing athlete he was, even when he was not superman anymore, he still had so much fight left in him...

Not to mention the ubiquitous "Robinson had no defense" lines when the only footage of Robinson they've seen is the last round of the second Turpin fight when Ray was going all-out for the KO.

Poet

kmcc505
04-27-2009, 07:47 PM
Great, great post. Thanks for these great vids of the master at his work. However, I had always heard there was no footage of SRR at his best.

TheGreatA
04-27-2009, 07:56 PM
Great, great post. Thanks for these great vids of the master at his work. However, I had always heard there was no footage of SRR at his best.

To be honest these videos are not of Robinson at the peak of his career since he was around 30 years old at the time.

There is film of an even younger Ray Robinson though, from around 1946 but these films are hard to acquire. You can see a couple of short clips in the highlight video that I posted.

wmute
04-27-2009, 09:52 PM
Not to mention the ubiquitous "Robinson had no defense" lines when the only footage of Robinson they've seen is the last round of the second Turpin fight when Ray was going all-out for the KO.

Poet

To be fair, large part of Robinson's defense was his offense and his toughness. His defense was weaker than the rest of his game.

But when you have a combo punching offensive machine with KO power in both hands, a great chin, incredible speed and reflexes, etc... "weakest part of his game" is not a very relevant statement :D

A fight were a more subtle defense would have paid off big time is the Maxim one, where he could have saved a lot more energy, than he did in using all that movement and pumping the jab.

wmute
04-27-2009, 09:53 PM
To be honest these videos are not of Robinson at the peak of his career since he was around 30 years old at the time.

There is film of an even younger Ray Robinson though, from around 1946 but these films are hard to acquire. You can see a couple of short clips in the highlight video that I posted.

Wow. I did not know that. What do you know about them?

TheGreatA
04-27-2009, 10:00 PM
Wow. I did not know that. What do you know about them?

There are highlights of the third Sammy Angott fight from 1946 which got Robinson his shot at the vacant welterweight title, highlights against Freddie Flores from 1949, highlights of the Tony Riccio fight from 1946, highlights of the first Cliff Beckett fight from 1946 and supposedly 25 minutes of footage of the welterweight title defense against Bernard Docusen from 1948.

TheGreatA
04-27-2009, 10:07 PM
There are highlights of the third Sammy Angott fight from 1946 which got Robinson his shot at the vacant welterweight title, highlights against Freddie Flores from 1949, highlights of the Tony Riccio fight from 1946, highlights of the first Cliff Beckett fight from 1946 and supposedly 25 minutes of footage of the welterweight title defense against Bernard Docusen from 1948.

Also 16 minutes of highlights of Ray Robinson's fight against middleweight Georgie Abrams from 1947.

warp1432
06-12-2009, 05:16 AM
There are highlights of the third Sammy Angott fight from 1946 which got Robinson his shot at the vacant welterweight title, highlights against Freddie Flores from 1949, highlights of the Tony Riccio fight from 1946, highlights of the first Cliff Beckett fight from 1946 and supposedly 25 minutes of footage of the welterweight title defense against Bernard Docusen from 1948.

Bumping to ask about this footage. Do you know if it's anywhere online?

Silencers
06-12-2009, 05:25 AM
It's a shame that there are so little videos of Robinson in his prime. I'm not sure if it's rare but I've seen footage of Robinson in the amateurs, I think it was for the GGs.

Richie-G
06-12-2009, 06:30 AM
Bumping to ask about this footage. Do you know if it's anywhere online?

http://www.legendsondisc.com/ROBINSON.html

ive bought this its got alot of fights from when he was older e.g Olson,Turpin,Basilio, Fullmer and Graziano, but one of the discs has rare footage on it, I think this might be what your talking about. (not sure though, although it is definetely older than the other fights and robinson does look better)

TheGreatA
06-12-2009, 10:43 AM
Bumping to ask about this footage. Do you know if it's anywhere online?

No but I'm almost certain that it will appear someday. A lot of previously rare footage is now out there on youtube.

If you have any money to spend you could buy Robinson's career set as the poster above me stated.

portuge puncher
06-12-2009, 04:20 PM
robinson was unbeatable in his prime

Obama
06-12-2009, 05:13 PM
robinson was unbeatable in his prime

Robinson was beat by LaMotta in his prime...

Unbeatable by Welterweights and below would still be wrong to say, but it's a hell of a lot better than unbeatable period.

JAB5239
06-13-2009, 07:49 AM
robinson was unbeatable in his prime

EVERYBODY is beatable. Robinson is the greatest fighter ever, in my mind. But there is always a style or a person who can beat even the best on any given night. Ray pretty much never ran into that at 147, but there are a few fighters I think could turn the trick on the right night. That said.....at 147 he's as close to unbeatable as any fighter ever.

Richie-G
06-13-2009, 07:50 AM
EVERYBODY is beatable. Robinson is the greatest fighter ever, in my mind. But there is always a style or a person who can beat even the best on any given night. Ray pretty much never ran into that at 147, but there are a few fighters I think could turn the trick on the right night. That said.....at 147 he's as close to unbeatable as any fighter ever.

Who do you think could beat Robinson then? I mean from recent times??

El Jesus
06-13-2009, 01:26 PM
Looking at this footage is great, but i think like wmute says, the fights after 55 really say something about how great he is. His technique in his prime is practically flawless, when he slips, he does it just enough to launch a counter hook or unload with a combination, Most of all he is always relaxed, what an amazing fighter.

El Jesus
06-13-2009, 01:29 PM
Who do you think could beat Robinson then? I mean from recent times??

If we are looking from welter to middle. Guys that i think might pose a problem are possibly Vernon Forrest, Bernard Hopkins, possibly marvin hagler. Mayweather jr is in the back of my mind simply because he might be fast enough to possibly time his movement, he really excels at doing that. Vernon Forrest without the injury would be a threat simply because his size and his jab would be an issue.

Richie-G
06-13-2009, 01:34 PM
If we are looking from welter to middle. Guys that i think might pose a problem are possibly Vernon Forrest, Bernard Hopkins, possibly marvin hagler. Mayweather jr is in the back of my mind simply because he might be fast enough to possibly time his movement, he really excels at doing that. Vernon Forrest without the injury would be a threat simply because his size and his jab would be an issue.

I also reckon whitaker would give him a few problems.........

El Jesus
06-13-2009, 01:44 PM
I also reckon whitaker would give him a few problems.........

Yes. The only reason i didint mention him is because of one thing really, when whitaker uses that upper body movement, robinson might be fast enough to catch him off gaurd, thats the only thing i fear about him. However i think whitaker would pose ALOT of problems, and again, like mayweather, would time robinson and bait him, but robinson, you can tell just by looking at those videos would do just the same. From the modern era its telling that very few off top could even compete with him.

JAB5239
06-13-2009, 03:55 PM
Who do you think could beat Robinson then? I mean from recent times??

On the right night, at welterweight.....Ray Leonard, Hearns and the Duran from the first Leonard fight.

Ziggy Stardust
06-13-2009, 04:14 PM
On the right night, at welterweight.....Ray Leonard, Hearns and the Duran from the first Leonard fight.

I tend to think that barring any sort of prohibitive style matchup any ATG is capable of beating another ATG in a one-off fight. The real test is how they do against each other in a series.

Poet

Kinetic Linking
06-15-2009, 09:44 PM
very good point about atgs, I'd say that's a definite rule with occasional excepts. Some ATGs are just better than others, of course.

TheGreatA
06-25-2009, 08:51 PM
Here's something extremely rare:

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Ray Robinson at the peak of his welterweight career defending his title against Bernard Docusen.

fight_professor
06-25-2009, 09:48 PM
Had seem some SRR before, but was priveledged to watch the 3 part RSPN special on him. Magnificent fighter, the greatest who has ever lived. Wonderful coordination, brilliant going forward, counter-attacking, speed, power, finesse.

This is the pinnacle of boxing.

TheGreatA
07-04-2009, 11:23 PM
Ray Robinson vs Bobby Dykes from 1950:

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Dykes is another fighter who doesn't get mentioned much today but was a very capable fighter at his best. He could have been a champion with better luck.

Despite never winning the title, he had wins over men like Gavilan (albeit old but he gave a prime Gavilan a tough fight as well), Giardello, Turner, Giambra, DeJohn, Wilson...

Boxing_12
09-10-2009, 12:07 PM
So this is 100% a Prime Ray Robinson then?

TheGreatA
09-10-2009, 01:07 PM
So this is 100% a Prime Ray Robinson then?

Not really. I just used that title so people would watch these videos.

The only film that exists of a prime Robinson is some grainy footage of his bouts against Sammy Angott, Bernard Docusen, Georgie Abrams and a couple of journeymen.

Boxing_12
09-10-2009, 01:10 PM
Not really. I just used that title so people would watch these videos.

The only film that exists of a prime Robinson is some grainy footage of his bouts against Sammy Angott, Bernard Docusen, Georgie Abrams and a couple of journeymen.

Is there any chance of uploading the Angott and Abrams fights? And why have people said for years and years that there is no footage of a prime Ray Robinson then, when there is? :wtf1:

TheGreatA
09-10-2009, 01:21 PM
Is there any chance of uploading the Angott and Abrams fights? And why have people said for years and years that there is no footage of a prime Ray Robinson then, when there is? :wtf1:

It's a bit of a myth. There is a lot of film of Robinson, more than 50+ films of his fights from what I've counted which should more than enough to make up an "educated" opinion about him.

Here are a couple of clips of those fights:

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1:40

boxingbuff
09-10-2009, 04:29 PM
It's a bit of a myth. There is a lot of film of Robinson, more than 50+ films of his fights from what I've counted which should more than enough to make up an "educated" opinion about him.

Here are a couple of clips of those fights:

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1:40

Are you talking about SRR at WELTERWEIGHT?

It's a myth there is no film on him at WELTERWEIGHT?

There are over 50 fights of SRR at WELTERWEIGHT? Could you please name these fights?

Thank You

TheGreatA
09-10-2009, 05:25 PM
Are you talking about SRR at WELTERWEIGHT?

It's a myth there is no film on him at WELTERWEIGHT?

There are over 50 fights of SRR at WELTERWEIGHT? Could you please name these fights?

Thank You

Sorry I meant that there are over 50 filmed fights of Robinson in total.

There are already a couple of his welterweight fights posted on this thread. Check out the Charley Fusari and Bernard Docusen fights. There is also the Sammy Angott fight of which you can see a brief clip in the post you quoted.

Some other Robinson fights exist from the 1940's but most of them are over the weight fights against journeymen, for example the Cliff Beckett, Tony Riccio, Georgie Abrams, Freddie Flores.

Boxing_12
09-10-2009, 07:12 PM
Sorry I meant that there are over 50 filmed fights of Robinson in total.

There are already a couple of his welterweight fights posted on this thread. Check out the Charley Fusari and Bernard Docusen fights. There is also the Sammy Angott fight of which you can see a brief clip in the post you quoted.

Some other Robinson fights exist from the 1940's but most of them are over the weight fights against journeymen, for example the Cliff Beckett, Tony Riccio, Georgie Abrams, Freddie Flores.

Can you upload these please?

Doctor_Tenma
09-11-2009, 03:32 AM
Yes. The only reason i didint mention him is because of one thing really, when whitaker uses that upper body movement, robinson might be fast enough to catch him off gaurd, thats the only thing i fear about him. However i think whitaker would pose ALOT of problems, and again, like mayweather, would time robinson and bait him, but robinson, you can tell just by looking at those videos would do just the same. From the modern era its telling that very few off top could even compete with him.

Whitaker or Mayweather would be too small for Ray Robinson. Whitaker's movement and defensive style could trouble anyone but Ray would be all over Whitaker due to Whitaker's power. Again, wouldn't matter, Ray would be too big for both.

SugarRayRealist
09-22-2009, 11:48 AM
** Can't figure why he didn't strip his shorts down and spit out his gum.

This his last welt fight. 2nd to last was the Gavilan title fight with 13 middle bouts in between.

Fusari a modest boxer with a good record fairly padded out. He's unwilling to go after the title and Robinson content to lay outside and box relaxed. More feints than punches and more bouncing around outside than anything.

Not a flattering fight. Fusari 2-4 after this and retires. The other guys look like muscled up stiffs. I'm fairly sure Ray boxed to the level of his threat, and Fusari was zero threat, plus he seemed to have a friendship with Charley.

Robinson admitted to carrying Fusari in his autobiography. He could have knocked out Fusari anytime he felt like it; but he agreed to carry him. Fusari's manager Vic Marsillo needed a fight; and Robinson needed an opponent for the Damon Runyon cancer fund. Robinson gave his entire earnings to the cancer fund for this fight.

SugarRayRealist
09-22-2009, 12:02 PM
I also reckon whitaker would give him a few problems.........

Are you guys serious? Forrest, Whitaker, Leonard, Mosley, Mayweather, Hearns, Hopkins, Hagler, Monzon, Delahoya, Trinidad, Cotto, or anyone you could think of would have been koed by Robinson.

Robinson was and still is simply the greatest fighter pound for pound in the history of boxing. Basketball had Michael Jordan. Kung Fu/Karate had Bruce Lee. But in boxing there will never be another fighter with the skills and chin of Robinson.

Sugar Ray did it all. Outboxed boxers. Outpunched Punchers. Outbrawled Brawlers. Robinson was the master in the sport of boxing. I was a boxer and became involved through boxing because of Muhammad Ali; I had never heard about Robinson as a kid. But after furthering my knowledge on boxing and boxers; I found out that the greatest fighter ever was Sugar Ray Robinson. Even Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Sugar Ray Leonard, Sugar Shane Mosley, Alexis Arguello, Floyd Patterson and so many more champion; and quite a few sportswriters said the same thing.

I am a boxing historian and know the sport better than most without bragging about my knowledge.

TheGreatA
09-22-2009, 12:05 PM
I am a boxing historian and know the sport better than most without bragging about my knowledge.

I think you just did.

Boxing_12
09-22-2009, 12:10 PM
I think you just did.

:lol1::lol1::lol1::

Richie-G
09-22-2009, 12:39 PM
Are you guys serious? Forrest, Whitaker, Leonard, Mosley, Mayweather, Hearns, Hopkins, Hagler, Monzon, Delahoya, Trinidad, Cotto, or anyone you could think of would have been koed by Robinson.

Robinson was and still is simply the greatest fighter pound for pound in the history of boxing. Basketball had Michael Jordan. Kung Fu/Karate had Bruce Lee. But in boxing there will never be another fighter with the skills and chin of Robinson.

Sugar Ray did it all. Outboxed boxers. Outpunched Punchers. Outbrawled Brawlers. Robinson was the master in the sport of boxing. I was a boxer and became involved through boxing because of Muhammad Ali; I had never heard about Robinson as a kid. But after furthering my knowledge on boxing and boxers; I found out that the greatest fighter ever was Sugar Ray Robinson. Even Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Sugar Ray Leonard, Sugar Shane Mosley, Alexis Arguello, Floyd Patterson and so many more champion; and quite a few sportswriters said the same thing.

I am a boxing historian and know the sport better than most without bragging about my knowledge.

I just meant i thought he would give him problems, didn't mention him beating him......

Joe2608
09-22-2009, 12:55 PM
I have a few questions, i know pretty much nothing about him and i feel i should research him before i make an opinion. Might look and see if there is a non biased book about him.

Here's some noob questions for you:

1) How do you feel Ray Robinson would do in modern times against modern boxers who have much healthier lifestyles, better technology and knowledge of the game?

2) Do you think he would be better in modern times due to having 6 months to prepare for a fight, rather than fighting twice a month, or do you think the greater activity helped him?

3) Was his competition strong, or were there a lot of bums?

4) If you can, can you give a rating out of 10 for each of his abilities, eg hand speed, foot speed, power, stamina etc.

5) How would his greatest rival (LaMotta, at least i think it is) do in modern times?

TheGreatA
09-22-2009, 04:09 PM
1) How do you feel Ray Robinson would do in modern times against modern boxers who have much healthier lifestyles, better technology and knowledge of the game?

Robinson did have a healthy lifestyle and trained hard for every bout. Even at 45 years of age he was in remarkable shape physically even though his skills had declined.

I feel that the training methods have not changed very drastically in the past 50 years, in boxing that is, or atleast they are not taken advantage of for the most part.

I don't think anyone, except possibly Floyd Mayweather and Bernard Hopkins can match Robinson's boxing knowledge. He studied old tapes intensively and went to see fights in order to pick up new tricks and work on his own flaws. As a professional he fought 200 times.

2) Do you think he would be better in modern times due to having 6 months to prepare for a fight, rather than fighting twice a month, or do you think the greater activity helped him?


Robinson preferred to fight often. He made enough money so that he did not need to fight as often as he did but he felt it kept his skills sharp and he learned from every fight.

However some of his best performances were after he had a couple of months to prepare for a fight.


3) Was his competition strong, or were there a lot of bums?

Overall his competition were strong but there were some "bums" in between. Even then some of the lesser opponents he fought were actually fairly good fighters.

Here are all the top 10 ranked opponents Robinson defeated:

Joe Ghnouly
Pete Lello
Maxie Shapiro
Maxie Berger
Norman Rubio (x2)
Tony Motisi
Reuben Shank
Izzy Jannazzo (x4)
Ralph Zannelli
Sheik Rangel
Tommy Bell (x2)
George Costner (x2)
Jose Basora (x2)
Jimmy McDaniels
California Jackie Wilson (x2)
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Georgie Abrams
Jimmy Doyle
Bernard Docusen
Vic Dellicurti
Steve Belloise
Aaron Wade
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Charley Fusari
Bobby Dykes
Holly Mims
Artie Levine
Cyrille Delanoit
Rocky Castellani
Denny Moyer
Hans Stretz
Ralph Dupas

Hall of famers:

Sammy Angott (x3)
Fritzie Zivic (x2)
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Henry Armstrong
Kid Gavilan (x2)
Carl Olson (x4)
Randolph Turpin
Rocky Graziano
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio


4) If you can, can you give a rating out of 10 for each of his abilities, eg hand speed, foot speed, power, stamina etc.

I'd say that he did most things great. He was not among the greatest defensive fighters perhaps, when compared to Whitaker, Pep, Locche, etc. more like a Muhammad Ali who relied on his reflexes early on and later his guile and ability to take punishment. He was also quite aggressive, not a defensive artist by any means although he did display the ability to box defensively in his career as well.

5) How would his greatest rival (LaMotta, at least i think it is) do in modern times?

LaMotta may not have been Robinson's greatest opponent but he was the toughest Robinson ever fought according to his own words. LaMotta had to cut down weight to make 160, something he would not really have a problem with today. He was quite short for a middleweight but he used it to his advantage with his bobbing and weaving, put on trendemous pressure and had better boxing skills than given credit for.

I think he would have success in today's weak middleweight division. Sebastian Sylvester is actually an inch shorter than LaMotta and he holds a title.

Boxing_12
09-22-2009, 04:14 PM
Robinson did have a healthy lifestyle and trained hard for every bout. Even at 45 years of age he was in remarkable shape physically even though his skills had declined.


I don't think anyone, except possibly Floyd Mayweather and Bernard Hopkins can match Robinson's boxing knowledge. He studied old tapes intensively and went to see fights in order to pick up new tricks and work on his own flaws. As a professional he fought 200 times.

This isn't true I belive. Robinson was never a big fan of watching boxing, and after reading numerous books and watching doc's on him, it have never stated he liked to watch old fight tapes.

He once said that he never liked boxing as it was barbaric and he done it soley for the money.

TheGreatA
09-22-2009, 04:34 PM
This isn't true I belive. Robinson was never a big fan of watching boxing, and after reading numerous books and watching doc's on him, it have never stated he liked to watch old fight tapes.

He once said that he never liked boxing as it was barbaric and he done it soley for the money.

While it is true that Robinson was not a fan of the sport, and I never said he was, he did in fact study it. Willie Pep and Kid Chocolate were among the boxers he admired.


“At first, he didn’t look like much of a fighter,” Gainford said of the man who would later become the greatest fighter of all time. “All he did was hit and run. But he had one thing; he wanted to learn. He was the first kid in the gym and the last one to leave. He’d say to me, ‘Suppose I do this; what do the other guy do?’ I’d tell him, and then he’d say, ‘And suppose I do this and this. Then what happens?’”

“When Ray went to the gym,” says Don Turner, “he wasn’t there to party. He didn’t play to the crowd. All he cared about was getting ready for the fight. There was no radio, no entourage. If someone was talking loud, Ray threw him out. He shadow-boxed like there was a guy in front of him. When he punched the heavy bag, it was five-punch combinations. Every punch meant something and it sounded like he was shooting guns. No fighter worked harder, and everyone else in the gym worked harder because he was there.”

http://www.secondsout.com/columns/thomas-hauser/sugar-ray-robinson-revisited--part-one

“Sugar Ray Robinson was a great admirer of Kid Chocolate,” said Fausto Miranda, a former Cuban journalist who covered many of Chocolate's fights. Sugar Ray Robinson, went on record saying that he had never seen anyone box like Kid Chocolate before. Robinson studied the Chocolate style and incorporated much of his slick movement and graceful flair into his boxing style. Robinson in many ways was a combination of his boxing idols Joe Louis and Kid Chocolate. He mixed the concentration, masterful combinations and power punching of Louis with the stylish movement and balance of Chocolate.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/chocolate.html

The greatest fighter of his time and one of the greatest of all time is Ray Robinson, the middleweight champion of the world. It is probable that in him, more than in any other fighter of today, are combined more of the qualities that go into the making of a great fighter.
Among the fighters of the present there is, for example, no more avid student of the sport. Robinson has been thus since the days when he started to box. As a four-round preliminary boy he made it a practice to sit at ringside in his ring clothes, before and after his own fights in order to study the others on the card.

One day we were talking in the Uptown Gym in Harlem. He was explaining how he had learned to fight by watching others and fighting others, and I asked him from whom, among those he had fought, he had learned the most.

“Fritzie Zivic taught me a lot,” he said, speaking of the former welterweight champion. “He was about the smartest I ever fought. Why, he showed me how you can make a man butt open his own eye.”

“How?” I said.

“He’d slip my lead, like this,” Robin¬son said, demonstrating. “Then he’d put his hand behind my neck and he’d bring my eye down on his head. Fritzie was smart.”

We were sitting one day in Robinson’s office on Seventh Avenue, just south of 124th Street. He had fought Kid Gavilan twice. The first time they had fought Gavi¬lan had given him trouble. The second time, for the welterweight title in Phila¬delphia on July 11, 1949, he had handled the Cuban with ease, and I wanted him to tell me at least one of the things he had learned about Gavilan in their first fight.

“Well, I noticed one thing.” Robinson said. “I noticed that when he throws his hook he’s not in position, so he shifts his right shoulder forward maybe an inch or two. When he does that you know the right hand is dead, and you how the hook is coming.”
I was not amazed by this, because I had ex¬pected some such revelation. I was merely im¬pressed that of the many who have fought Gavilan and of the many more who have watched him closely, this is the only one to find this weakness.

I was not amazed, moreover, when Robin¬son told me that he knows fear. I have never known a really good creative artist, whether he be a writer, painter, or boxer, who has not confessed that he often doubts himself, experiences nervous¬ness when the big project is at hand.

“Accidents happen in a ring,” Robinson said. “You can never tell when you’re liable to be hit with a good punch.”

He remembered the night he fought Artie Levine in Cleveland in November of 1946. Levine had a dozen pounds on him and so Robinson was fighting it the way you should fight it, moving and throwing no more than combinations and piling up the points.

“In the ninth round,” he said, “he started a right hand and I reached over to catch it. When I opened my glove it wasn’t there and I heard the referee say: ‘Four.’ I thought to myself, Man, he’s startin’ awful high.”

Robinson got up at nine, and in the next round he knocked Levine out. He has never forgotten this, however, but the fear that Robinson knows is the limited fear that inspires a degree of caution and out of this gives birth to inspired performance.

http://www.******.com/blog/685/classic_column_what_makes_a_good_fighter/

Boxing_12
09-22-2009, 04:37 PM
While it is true that Robinson was not a fan of the sport, and I never said he was, he did in fact study it. Willie Pep and Kid Chocolate were among the boxers he admired.


“At first, he didn’t look like much of a fighter,” Gainford said of the man who would later become the greatest fighter of all time. “All he did was hit and run. But he had one thing; he wanted to learn. He was the first kid in the gym and the last one to leave. He’d say to me, ‘Suppose I do this; what do the other guy do?’ I’d tell him, and then he’d say, ‘And suppose I do this and this. Then what happens?’”

“When Ray went to the gym,” says Don Turner, “he wasn’t there to party. He didn’t play to the crowd. All he cared about was getting ready for the fight. There was no radio, no entourage. If someone was talking loud, Ray threw him out. He shadow-boxed like there was a guy in front of him. When he punched the heavy bag, it was five-punch combinations. Every punch meant something and it sounded like he was shooting guns. No fighter worked harder, and everyone else in the gym worked harder because he was there.”

http://www.secondsout.com/columns/thomas-hauser/sugar-ray-robinson-revisited--part-one

“Sugar Ray Robinson was a great admirer of Kid Chocolate,” said Fausto Miranda, a former Cuban journalist who covered many of Chocolate's fights. Sugar Ray Robinson, went on record saying that he had never seen anyone box like Kid Chocolate before. Robinson studied the Chocolate style and incorporated much of his slick movement and graceful flair into his boxing style. Robinson in many ways was a combination of his boxing idols Joe Louis and Kid Chocolate. He mixed the concentration, masterful combinations and power punching of Louis with the stylish movement and balance of Chocolate.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/chocolate.html

The greatest fighter of his time and one of the greatest of all time is Ray Robinson, the middleweight champion of the world. It is probable that in him, more than in any other fighter of today, are combined more of the qualities that go into the making of a great fighter.
Among the fighters of the present there is, for example, no more avid student of the sport. Robinson has been thus since the days when he started to box. As a four-round preliminary boy he made it a practice to sit at ringside in his ring clothes, before and after his own fights in order to study the others on the card.

One day we were talking in the Uptown Gym in Harlem. He was explaining how he had learned to fight by watching others and fighting others, and I asked him from whom, among those he had fought, he had learned the most.

“Fritzie Zivic taught me a lot,” he said, speaking of the former welterweight champion. “He was about the smartest I ever fought. Why, he showed me how you can make a man butt open his own eye.”

“How?” I said.

“He’d slip my lead, like this,” Robin¬son said, demonstrating. “Then he’d put his hand behind my neck and he’d bring my eye down on his head. Fritzie was smart.”

We were sitting one day in Robinson’s office on Seventh Avenue, just south of 124th Street. He had fought Kid Gavilan twice. The first time they had fought Gavi¬lan had given him trouble. The second time, for the welterweight title in Phila¬delphia on July 11, 1949, he had handled the Cuban with ease, and I wanted him to tell me at least one of the things he had learned about Gavilan in their first fight.

“Well, I noticed one thing.” Robinson said. “I noticed that when he throws his hook he’s not in position, so he shifts his right shoulder forward maybe an inch or two. When he does that you know the right hand is dead, and you how the hook is coming.”
I was not amazed by this, because I had ex¬pected some such revelation. I was merely im¬pressed that of the many who have fought Gavilan and of the many more who have watched him closely, this is the only one to find this weakness.

I was not amazed, moreover, when Robin¬son told me that he knows fear. I have never known a really good creative artist, whether he be a writer, painter, or boxer, who has not confessed that he often doubts himself, experiences nervous¬ness when the big project is at hand.

“Accidents happen in a ring,” Robinson said. “You can never tell when you’re liable to be hit with a good punch.”

He remembered the night he fought Artie Levine in Cleveland in November of 1946. Levine had a dozen pounds on him and so Robinson was fighting it the way you should fight it, moving and throwing no more than combinations and piling up the points.

“In the ninth round,” he said, “he started a right hand and I reached over to catch it. When I opened my glove it wasn’t there and I heard the referee say: ‘Four.’ I thought to myself, Man, he’s startin’ awful high.”

Robinson got up at nine, and in the next round he knocked Levine out. He has never forgotten this, however, but the fear that Robinson knows is the limited fear that inspires a degree of caution and out of this gives birth to inspired performance.

http://www.******.com/blog/685/classic_column_what_makes_a_good_fighter/

Interesting read thanks.. But it dosent mention Robinson watching or stuyding fight tapes.

TheGreatA
09-22-2009, 04:41 PM
Interesting read thanks.. But it dosent mention Robinson watching or stuyding fight tapes.

How else could he incorporate Kid Chocolate's and Joe Louis's techniques into his own style? He was no more than a little kid when Chocolate was fighting so he did not actually see him in action.

I'm not saying that he watched boxing films as a fan or anything, only in order to study their moves.

Boxing_12
09-22-2009, 04:45 PM
How else could he incorporate Kid Chocolate's and Joe Louis's techniques into his own style? He was no more than a little kid when Chocolate was fighting so he did not actually see him in action.

I'm not saying that he watched boxing films as a fan or anything, only in order to study their moves.

Do you think he would only Chocolate and Louis on tape, i wonder if he watched anyone else. Maybe Johnson, Benny Leonard, Tunney etc?

Do you know?

JAB5239
09-22-2009, 04:50 PM
Are you guys serious? Forrest, Whitaker, Leonard, Mosley, Mayweather, Hearns, Hopkins, Hagler, Monzon, Delahoya, Trinidad, Cotto, or anyone you could think of would have been koed by Robinson.

I think Robinson is the best p4p fighter myself. But if Georgie Abrams, near the end of his career could give Robinson enough problems that the crowd boo'd and many sports writers thought Robinsons SD victory. Based on this and the many hours I've spent watching Robinson fights I would give Leonard and
Hopkins a shot at beating Ray and flat out pick Hagler and Monzon to beat him. This doesn't make them better p4p fighters, and their careers weren't on par with Rays, but they're great fighters themselves who shouldn't be sold short.

Oh, and if Ray did beat the guys I mentioned, I doubt it would be by ko.

baddest
09-23-2009, 03:06 AM
Wait so Ray Robinson, the greatest fighter the sports ever known, wasn't even a boxing fan? OH the irony.

Joe2608
09-23-2009, 09:52 AM
Cheers for the reply "TheGreatA", you seem very knowledgable about the history of the sport. I have to say after watching more and more videos of him he looks like a very formiddable fighter to come up against, plus his fights are interesting and exicting. Seems to have fought everyone he possibly could.

TheGreatA
10-27-2009, 11:17 AM
More rare footage of Ray Robinson:

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