View Full Version : Henry Armstrong vs Billy Conn Middleweight bout


cotto16
04-21-2009, 08:12 PM
Armstrong had one fight at the weight and was robbed, billy was a great middleweight beating the likes of Teddy Yarosz and Young Corbett III. It would of been a great clash of styles armstrongs non stop attack against conn's fancy footwork. I would not been surprised if henry beat a middleweight billy, would conn be able to get in rythm?

JAB5239
04-21-2009, 09:01 PM
Armstrong had one fight at the weight and was robbed, billy was a great middleweight beating the likes of Teddy Yarosz and Young Corbett III. It would of been a great clash of styles armstrongs non stop attack against conn's fancy footwork. I would not been surprised if heny beat a middleweight billy, would conn be able to get in rythm?

Conn is bigger, stronger, faster and more skilled than Garcia was. P4p, Armstrong is the better fighter, but he's in over his head here. Henry never stops trying, but he hasn't got the fire power to hurt Billy. Conn by UD.

Kid McCoy
04-21-2009, 10:37 PM
Wasn't this match-up posted recently?

I wouldn't call the Garcia fight a robbery, it was reasonably close. In any case Garcia himself was a welter who moved up and both were fighting well below the middleweight limit.

Anyway I agree with Jab. Armstrong, though a phenomenon, would be seriously over-matched against Conn, who would walk through him.

cotto16
04-21-2009, 10:48 PM
Wasn't this match-up posted recently?

I wouldn't call the Garcia fight a robbery, it was reasonably close. In any case Garcia himself was a welter who moved up and both were fighting well below the middleweight limit.

Anyway I agree with Jab. Armstrong, though a phenomenon, would be seriously over-matched against Conn, who would walk through him.

Your letting billys weight get in the way to much, and i read an biography on armstrong the guy would push lightheavies and heavyweights back in sparring, in his prime he was a freak of nature, in the book there is a story when henry is geting ready to fight gacia for the title, a guy in the gym jokes and says at this rate hank the way your collecting belts you could be fighting joe louis soon, hank turns round and said i would fight joe louis right now! thats the type of fighter armstrong was! he was a different type of animal

JAB5239
04-21-2009, 11:06 PM
Your letting billys weight get in the way to much, and i read an biography on armstrong the guy would push lightheavies and heavyweights back in sparring, in his prime he was a freak of nature, in the book there is a story when henry is geting ready to fight gacia for the title, a guy in the gym jokes and says at this rate hank the way your collecting belts you could be fighting joe louis soon, hank turns round and said i would fight joe louis right now! thats the type of fighter armstrong was! he was a different type of animal

Besides weight, Conn also hs almost 8 inches in height on Armstrong. He is by far bigger than anyboby Hank has ever faced and an all time great fighter himself. If armstrong struggled with the likes of Zivic and Garcia, he'd be in trouble aginst a guy who was only stopped 3 times in 77 fights, and two of those times were to the mighty Joe Louis. A guy with fast hands and feet who was much bigger than him.

cotto16
04-21-2009, 11:12 PM
Besides weight, Conn also hs almost 8 inches in height on Armstrong. He is by far bigger than anyboby Hank has ever faced and an all time great fighter himself. If armstrong struggled with the likes of Zivic and Garcia, he'd be in trouble aginst a guy who was only stopped 3 times in 77 fights, and two of those times were to the mighty Joe Louis. A guy with fast hands and feet who was much bigger than him.

Conn was at his best a lightheavy, this match up is a 160, he was good at middleweight, but i dont think he was great at the weight. I think the heny would got robbed against garcia beats a middleweight conn

JAB5239
04-21-2009, 11:47 PM
Conn was at his best a lightheavy, this match up is a 160, he was good at middleweight, but i dont think he was great at the weight. I think the heny would got robbed against garcia beats a middleweight conn

First of all my friend, Armstrong was in a very close fight with Garcia, as had been their previous fight at 47. Second, besides being much bigger, Conn beat a better overall class of middleweights including Krieger, Yarosz, Dundee, Risko, Zivic and Cobett III. I fail to see how you think this would go Armstrongs way.

Jim Jeffries
04-21-2009, 11:50 PM
Are we talking about the same Billy Conn that, while weighing under the LHW limit, outboxed the more than 25 lb heavier, prime Joe Louis for 12 rounds, before getting ****y (and stupid?) :thinking:

Like has been said, Armstrong is much better p4p, but is also 8 inches shorter, and was at his best at Lightweight.

cotto16
04-21-2009, 11:50 PM
First of all my friend, Armstrong was in a very close fight with Garcia, as had been their previous fight at 47. Second, besides being much bigger, Conn beat a better overall class of middleweights including Krieger, Yarosz, Dundee, Risko, Zivic and Cobett III. I fail to see how you think this would go Armstrongs way.

The fighters you named are a class above former middleweight champion garcia?

JAB5239
04-21-2009, 11:59 PM
The fighters you named are a class above former middleweight champion garcia?

All except Zivic and Risko who were on par or close to par with Garcia.

How can you argue if you don't know the fighters these men have faced?

cotto16
04-22-2009, 12:02 AM
All except Zivic and Risko who were on par or close to par with Garcia.

How can you argue if you don't know the fighters these men have faced?

How can you just say i dont know who they have faced? i can give you a list of fighters they have faced

Silencers
04-22-2009, 12:08 AM
I agree with the others here, I think Conn would have been too big and too long for Armstrong, he also had the movement and speed to keep Armstrong off him, Armstrong was the better fighter pound for pound but it doesn't mean he can beat everybody in real life.

cotto16
04-22-2009, 12:18 AM
I agree with the others here, I think Conn would have been too big and too long for Armstrong, he also had the movement and speed to keep Armstrong off him, Armstrong was the better fighter pound for pound but it doesn't mean he can beat everybody in real life.

Yes we know he cant beat every one smart ass but he would of had a good chance against a middleweight conn

JAB5239
04-22-2009, 01:27 AM
How can you just say i dont know who they have faced? i can give you a list of fighters they have faced

When you have to ask if "are the fighters he faced a class above Garcia", it leads me to believe you don't know what you are talking about. If Im wrong, so be it. But so far there is no indication I am wrong. And just showing a list from boxrec doesn't mean you know anything about these fighters. Theres a little more to it than that, my man.

JAB5239
04-22-2009, 01:32 AM
Yes we know he cant beat every one smart ass but he would of had a good chance against a middleweight conn

So far everybody that has chimed in on this thread has said why they believe Conn would win this match up. You haven't shown one reason you believe Armstrong would win. You just keep repeating that he would have a "good cance against a mddeweight Conn." What exactly are his advantages?

TheGreatA
04-22-2009, 05:55 AM
Ceferino Garcia was a good fighter but he was basically a light middleweight. He fought as a welterweight also but he seemed to be more effective at around 154 lbs as seen against Armstrong. Garcia did much better in the rematch and it was tougher for Armstrong to push him around.

Based on the Garcia fight I'd say that it would be tough for Armstrong to beat any great middleweights. He never weighed more than 140 and his best weight was 130-135. Garcia outweighed him by about 12 lbs, Conn would be outweighing him by about 20.

cotto16
04-22-2009, 11:11 AM
When you have to ask if "are the fighters he faced a class above Garcia", it leads me to believe you don't know what you are talking about. If Im wrong, so be it. But so far there is no indication I am wrong. And just showing a list from boxrec doesn't mean you know anything about these fighters. Theres a little more to it than that, my man.

Well seen as it very hard to get footage of such fighters as young corbet III and other middleweights conn faced, i have read alot about them mainly in the book sweet william, and checked out there records and they were not as good as garcia. So dont give me all tha bull**** i dont know what am talking about.

Kid McCoy
04-22-2009, 12:31 PM
Your letting billys weight get in the way to much, and i read an biography on armstrong the guy would push lightheavies and heavyweights back in sparring, in his prime he was a freak of nature, in the book there is a story when henry is geting ready to fight gacia for the title, a guy in the gym jokes and says at this rate hank the way your collecting belts you could be fighting joe louis soon, hank turns round and said i would fight joe louis right now! thats the type of fighter armstrong was! he was a different type of animal

I doubt Armstrong ever seriously contemplated facing Louis. The fight would never have been sanctioned, even back then.

The great big man invariably beats the great little man. Conn was not just any old middle/light-heavy, but a swift, tough and talented boxer who was unbeaten as light-heavy champ and capable of beating top heavyweight contenders. I don't see any way Armstrong could beat him.

JAB5239
04-22-2009, 03:20 PM
Well seen as it very hard to get footage of such fighters as young corbet III and other middleweights conn faced, i have read alot about them mainly in the book sweet william, and checked out there records and they were not as good as garcia. So dont give me all tha bull**** i dont know what am talking about.

So far you don't know ****, and you still haven't given any reasons why Armstrong would beat Conn.

Now, on to Corbett III and Garcia. Funny how Corbett has better wins at middleweight, isn't it? Im talking Conn, Lesnivich and Apostoli. Whereas Garcia's biggest win are Apostoli and a very young Lloyd Marshall. did I mention Corbett twice beat Garcia at welterweight?

Still wanna play in the deep end of the pool?:crucified

cotto16
04-22-2009, 10:04 PM
So far you don't know ****, and you still haven't given any reasons why Armstrong would beat Conn.

Now, on to Corbett III and Garcia. Funny how Corbett has better wins at middleweight, isn't it? Im talking Conn, Lesnivich and Apostoli. Whereas Garcia's biggest win are Apostoli and a very young Lloyd Marshall. did I mention Corbett twice beat Garcia at welterweight?

Still wanna play in the deep end of the pool?:crucified

boxing math means nothink, garcia was champion something corbet and apostoli wasnt, armstrong wouldnt let conn get in to his rythm he would be in billy's face all night long and speaking of deep water thats were armstrong would take conn, billy would never of faced anything like hank.

JAB5239
04-23-2009, 03:53 AM
boxing math means nothink, garcia was champion something corbet and apostoli wasnt, armstrong wouldnt let conn get in to his rythm he would be in billy's face all night long and speaking of deep water thats were armstrong would take conn, billy would never of faced anything like hank.

Your ignorance is glaring. Do your homework ya dope. If Apostoli was never champion, who did Garcia win the title from?

You either didn't know who these fighters were or insinuated they weren't on the same level at middlweight as Garcia. Either way I have proven beyond a doubt that they were. If you want to take it a step further and compare resumes for more proof, say the word.

As far as your ridiculous take on how an Armstrong-Conn fight would play out.....you have no foundation to base your claims on. Hank lost to Garcia. Nobody who knows anything is going to say Garcia was better than Conn, because he wasn't. On top of that, Conn was bigger, faster and stronger than Cefirino. So with that said, how come Armstrong allowed Garcia to get in a rythm? And how is he going to stop and even better fighter with huge advantages in height and reach from doing the same? Armstrong never beat a fighter as big as Conn before or after his attempt at the middlweight title. What on Gods green Earth makes you think he going to do it to one of the best fighters ever? Come on, break it down for us. Use some logic, because your opinion means **** when faced with facts.

Joey Giardello
04-23-2009, 06:36 PM
Your ignorance is glaring. Do your homework ya dope. If Apostoli was never champion, who did Garcia win the title from?

You either didn't know who these fighters were or insinuated they weren't on the same level at middlweight as Garcia. Either way I have proven beyond a doubt that they were. If you want to take it a step further and compare resumes for more proof, say the word.

As far as your ridiculous take on how an Armstrong-Conn fight would play out.....you have no foundation to base your claims on. Hank lost to Garcia. Nobody who knows anything is going to say Garcia was better than Conn, because he wasn't. On top of that, Conn was bigger, faster and stronger than Cefirino. So with that said, how come Armstrong allowed Garcia to get in a rythm? And how is he going to stop and even better fighter with huge advantages in height and reach from doing the same? Armstrong never beat a fighter as big as Conn before or after his attempt at the middlweight title. What on Gods green Earth makes you think he going to do it to one of the best fighters ever? Come on, break it down for us. Use some logic, because your opinion means **** when faced with facts.

Sorrie man i have got to agree with cotto 16, garcia was better than young corbet III and Apostoli, but i dont think armstong could get a win over conn, conn size and jab would be very hard for henry to over come. Why have you tuned this all so nasty? were all just historians who love there boxing

JAB5239
04-24-2009, 07:50 AM
Sorrie man i have got to agree with cotto 16, garcia was better than young corbet III and Apostoli, but i dont think armstong could get a win over conn, conn size and jab would be very hard for henry to over come. Why have you tuned this all so nasty? were all just historians who love there boxing

Im glad you agree with the outcome my friend. I think most intelligent fans see it this way because of the facts involved. That said, it can never really be proved, only debated.

If you go back over the post history of this thread you will notice that I never said either Corbett or Apostoli were better than Garcia, Only that Conn faced a better class of fighters at this weight overall than Garcia. I stand by this and am willing to provide evidence and facts on the subject.

If this has gotten a little nasty its because I have supported my claims with facts and gotten nothing but conjecture and attitude in return. If Im wrong about something I'll bow my head and admit it. If anybody else make a claim I don't see eye to eye with Im going to call them on it and ask how they came to that particular conclussion. Cotto hasn't backed anything he's said with any kind of facts and hardly has a clue what he talking about. See his quote on Apostoli never having a title even though thats the fighter Garcia took the title from.

In the end though, you're right. There is no need to get nasty. Unfortunetly I do and probably will continue to get agravated and or dragged down to a level that isn't conducive to intelligent debate by people who either don't know wha they're taking about or can't admit thy are wrong. I know better, but it is what it is.

TheGreatA
04-24-2009, 08:05 AM
Sorrie man i have got to agree with cotto 16, garcia was better than young corbet III and Apostoli, but i dont think armstong could get a win over conn, conn size and jab would be very hard for henry to over come. Why have you tuned this all so nasty? were all just historians who love there boxing

I don't know about Garcia being better than Corbett and Apostoli although you could make the case that he was better than Apostoli since Garcia beat him.

Corbett III on the other hand has one of the most underrated resumes of all time which not only includes two decisive wins over Garcia but wins over Billy Conn, Mickey Walker, Gus Lesnevich, Fred Apostoli, Jackie Fields, Jack Thompson, etc. One thing that will always dent his legacy is the way that he was knocked out by McLarnin in just one round, a fight he was supposed to win easily.

Of course the fact that he was a big favorite over Jimmy McLarnin should tell you how highly people thought of him at the time.

By the way it would be about time to induct Ceferino Garcia into the boxing hall of fame since Corbett III and Apostoli are already there.

GJC
04-25-2009, 11:51 AM
Don't know about Garcia being robbed, it was a close fight and Armstrong gave a good account of himself but this robbery myth grows stronger through the years. I prefer Armstrong as a fighter but IMO the fighter moving up is always at a disadvantage. The biggest thing that nullifies that disadvantage is theoretically he should be quicker and also may challenge a weakish fighter. In this match up Armstrong wouldn't be quicker and Conn is a very good fighter. Just think that middleweight is a weight too far for Armstrong and could only see him beating 2nd tier fighters at this weight.