View Full Version : Muhammad Ali saying Jack Dempsey is a joke yet Marciano would be a threat?


-Blackout-
04-19-2009, 05:13 PM
In the first clip Ali speaks about Jack Dempsey, making fun of the old school brawler type of fighting saying he would beat that guy up

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In this next clip Ali on the other hand says a little brawler like Rocky Marciano would be the most trouble because he was a brawler and you could never predict where the punches came from..

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Ali contradict himself.. What's your take on it? Is Dempsey and Marciano a threat? Is Marciano a bigger threat than Dempsey to Ali? Ali did have trouble fighting a rough slugger/hookmaster like Frazier is it fair to compare him to Marciano and Dempsey..?

Lacrimosa
04-19-2009, 08:11 PM
Maybe he just changed his opinion as times passed:)

Marciano would be tough because he had a very low stance, and Ali didn`t like such stance... It was one of the reasons why he considered Frazier his toughest opponent...

But, come on, enough of it:) When we talk about Marciano we talk about the guy who`s usual weight was about 185lbs... so he hardly would fight Ali in later era...

Infern0
04-19-2009, 10:36 PM
Ali would seriously **** them both up, as they stood there, like statues, trying to catch him as he comes in but finding that thier skills are woefully inadiquate. Seriously those real early heavies are over-rated, Ali onwards is a different ball game.

TheGreatA
04-19-2009, 10:47 PM
Ali would seriously **** them both up, as they stood there, like statues, trying to catch him as he comes in but finding that thier skills are woefully inadiquate. Seriously those real early heavies are over-rated, Ali onwards is a different ball game.

Ali had trouble with worse fighters. Dempsey and Marciano shouldn't be counted out although I wouldn't favour them against Ali by any means.

Henry Cooper walked straight forward with little speed and threw a predictable left hook over and over yet he was able to give Ali a lot of trouble in their two fights. Chuvalo was slower than Marciano and Dempsey in slow motion yet he gave Ali two of his toughest fights. This was Ali in his prime too, not the 70's version.

Dempsey had faster feet, a better chin, better head movement and better two fisted punching power than Cooper did. He has enough tools to trouble Ali.

res
04-19-2009, 10:53 PM
In the first clip Ali speaks about Jack Dempsey, making fun of the old school brawler type of fighting saying he would beat that guy up

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In this next clip Ali on the other hand says a little brawler like Rocky Marciano would be the most trouble because he was a brawler and you could never predict where the punches came from..

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Ali contradict himself.. What's your take on it? Is Dempsey and Marciano a threat? Is Marciano a bigger threat than Dempsey to Ali? Ali did have trouble fighting a rough slugger/hookmaster like Frazier is it fair to compare him to Marciano and Dempsey..?

Marciano was more recent and Ali was raised in a culture that revered him. You get the sense that he really didn't know alot about Dempsey though from the clip.

I see Dempsey as the more challenging of the two, being quicker and attacking at a far more frenzied pace. He would be a smaller but faster Joe Frazier with enough power to trouble Ali (though not quite power on Joe's level) and two good arms instead of one like Joe.

Abstraction
04-19-2009, 11:02 PM
Er... Their two completely different people. So how is he contradicting himself..?

GJC
04-19-2009, 11:07 PM
Ali had trouble with worse fighters. Dempsey and Marciano shouldn't be counted out although I wouldn't favour them against Ali by any means.

Henry Cooper walked straight forward with little speed and threw a predictable left hook over and over yet he was able to give Ali a lot of trouble in their two fights. Chuvalo was slower than Marciano and Dempsey in slow motion yet he gave Ali two of his toughest fights. This was Ali in his prime too, not the 70's version.

Dempsey had faster feet, a better chin, better head movement and better two fisted punching power than Cooper did. He has enough tools to trouble Ali.
I was at the 2nd Ali Cooper fight, Henry didn't really give him too much trouble that time. My biggest memory was when Ali cut Cooper 50,000 groaning as one. Cooper certainly caught him in the 1st tho. Chuvalo not to split hairs fought Ali either side of the ban I believe, think he was the only fighter to do so.
Agree re Dempsey and Marciano,think a lot of people don't seem to get(in the short time I have been here)is that these old timers were great fighters. They were used to adapting and overcoming problems.I think that Ali would have had to much for them both but I could certainly see Dempsey winning 1 out of 10 for sure and Marciano 2/3 out of 10.

TheGreatA
04-19-2009, 11:12 PM
I was at the 2nd Ali Cooper fight, Henry didn't really give him too much trouble that time. My biggest memory was when Ali cut Cooper 50,000 groaning as one. Cooper certainly caught him in the 1st tho. Chuvalo not to split hairs fought Ali either side of the ban I believe, think he was the only fighter to do so.
Agree re Dempsey and Marciano,think a lot of people don't seem to get(in the short time I have been here)is that these old timers were great fighters. They were used to adapting and overcoming problems.I think that Ali would have had to much for them both but I could certainly see Dempsey winning 1 out of 10 for sure and Marciano 2/3 out of 10.

I thought Ali looked quite uninspiring against Cooper the second time. Cooper didn't have much going but neither did Ali. Cooper would have probably lasted a lot longer if not for his tendency to cut.

It's just not reasonable to expect Ali to "kill" Dempsey and Marciano. He wasn't much of a "killer" in the ring.

GJC
04-19-2009, 11:12 PM
I was at the 2nd Ali Cooper fight, Henry didn't really give him too much trouble that time. My biggest memory was when Ali cut Cooper 50,000 groaning as one. Cooper certainly caught him in the 1st tho. Chuvalo not to split hairs fought Ali either side of the ban I believe, think he was the only fighter to do so.
Agree re Dempsey and Marciano,think a lot of people don't seem to get(in the short time I have been here)is that these old timers were great fighters. They were used to adapting and overcoming problems.I think that Ali would have had to much for them both but I could certainly see Dempsey winning 1 out of 10 for sure and Marciano 2/3 out of 10.
Ali was the best heavyweight in my opinion but even pre ban he did have weaknesses. Great fighters identify and exploit weaknesses. Johnson, Dempsey etc had the skills that at their peak and in their era made them the best. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that taking advantage of the benefits of the modern era they would not improve and be a force. I'm not saying they would beat Ali but he isn't going to humiliate them.

TheGreatA
04-19-2009, 11:14 PM
I thought Ali looked quite uninspiring against Cooper the second time. Cooper didn't have much going but neither did Ali. Cooper would have probably lasted a lot longer if not for his tendency to cut.

It's just not reasonable to expect Ali to "kill" Dempsey and Marciano. He wasn't much of a "killer" in the ring.

Ali actually weighed 200 lbs for the rematch against Cooper.

GJC
04-19-2009, 11:15 PM
I thought Ali looked quite uninspiring against Cooper the second time. Cooper didn't have much going but neither did Ali. Cooper would have probably lasted a lot longer if not for his tendency to cut.

It's just not reasonable to expect Ali to "kill" Dempsey and Marciano. He wasn't much of a "killer" in the ring.
It was my only time I saw Ali live and was disappointed not to see him at his best,though I was cheering on my countryman of course. If there is a film out there try and catch the groan it must be audible, mine alone :)

GJC
04-19-2009, 11:17 PM
Ali actually weighed 200 lbs for the rematch against Cooper.
I would say certainly at his peak but on that night I would have been interested to seeDempsey or Marciano against him. I think hewould have been given a lot more problems by either.

TheGreatA
04-19-2009, 11:31 PM
It was my only time I saw Ali live and was disappointed not to see him at his best,though I was cheering on my countryman of course. If there is a film out there try and catch the groan it must be audible, mine alone :)

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Unfortunately the Korean commentators are talking over it. :)

Cooper said that he actually put weights in his pockets for the weigh-in to make himself appear heavier since he believed he was under the light heavyweight limit of 175 lbs.

Decent effort by Cooper although the fight was not nearly as dramatic as their first meeting.

Dempsey 1919
04-20-2009, 01:05 AM
I think that Dempsey would give Ali more trouble than Marciano because of his speed and height but Ali would still win.

Miburo
04-20-2009, 02:11 AM
Like most people he had probably only seen Dempsey-Willard, where after the knockdown Dempsey was just winging punches to finish him off in a very wild fashion, contributing to his low assessment.

them_apples
04-20-2009, 02:18 AM
In the first clip Ali speaks about Jack Dempsey, making fun of the old school brawler type of fighting saying he would beat that guy up

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In this next clip Ali on the other hand says a little brawler like Rocky Marciano would be the most trouble because he was a brawler and you could never predict where the punches came from..

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Ali contradict himself.. What's your take on it? Is Dempsey and Marciano a threat? Is Marciano a bigger threat than Dempsey to Ali? Ali did have trouble fighting a rough slugger/hookmaster like Frazier is it fair to compare him to Marciano and Dempsey..?

did he say that after Rocky died? because I recall him saying he would have wooped Rocky as well. Then changing his tune after Rocky died.

wmute
04-20-2009, 03:50 AM
I was at the 2nd Ali Cooper fight, Henry didn't really give him too much trouble that time. My biggest memory was when Ali cut Cooper 50,000 groaning as one. Cooper certainly caught him in the 1st tho. Chuvalo not to split hairs fought Ali either side of the ban I believe, think he was the only fighter to do so.
Agree re Dempsey and Marciano,think a lot of people don't seem to get(in the short time I have been here)is that these old timers were great fighters. They were used to adapting and overcoming problems.I think that Ali would have had to much for them both but I could certainly see Dempsey winning 1 out of 10 for sure and Marciano 2/3 out of 10.

Throw in Patterson.

Ziggy Stardust
04-20-2009, 10:34 AM
Like most people he had probably only seen Dempsey-Willard, where after the knockdown Dempsey was just winging punches to finish him off in a very wild fashion, contributing to his low assessment.

Yeah, it's similar to the morons who claim Ray Robinson had no defense when the only footage they've seem of him is the last round of the second Turpin fight when he's going all out for a KO.

Poet

Slimey Limey
04-20-2009, 11:39 AM
Because Marciano really was that great. Retard haters will not admit it but here even one of the greatest Heavyweights of all time acknowledged Rocky, because you can only truly understand his greatness if you've been in the ring yourself. Ali, Foreman, Frazier etc rate the Rock very highly.

GJC
04-20-2009, 01:07 PM
Throw in Patterson.
Your quite right

sleazyfellow
04-20-2009, 04:46 PM
Because Marciano really was that great. Retard haters will not admit it but here even one of the greatest Heavyweights of all time acknowledged Rocky, because you can only truly understand his greatness if you've been in the ring yourself. Ali, Foreman, Frazier etc rate the Rock very highly.

All you listed were kids when rocky was champion, of course they looked up to him and rate him high. Jack Dempsy lost to man slower than Ali, but Ali and tunney had similar styles so its easy to tell who'd win.

This interview was done after Rockys death and of course he wasnt going to flat out destroy him verbally. When they show the footage of rock fighting ezzy he starts going off on how Rocky fought old men, hitting on top of the head...

portuge puncher
04-20-2009, 04:55 PM
its easy for people to say a champion was not good, especially when they dont have t get in the ring with them.

res
04-20-2009, 08:17 PM
All you listed were kids when rocky was champion, of course they looked up to him and rate him high. Jack Dempsy lost to man slower than Ali, but Ali and tunney had similar styles so its easy to tell who'd win.


Personally I say that was post-prime Dempsey but Ali is a different fighter.

them_apples
04-20-2009, 08:20 PM
All you listed were kids when rocky was champion, of course they looked up to him and rate him high. Jack Dempsy lost to man slower than Ali, but Ali and tunney had similar styles so its easy to tell who'd win.

This interview was done after Rockys death and of course he wasnt going to flat out destroy him verbally. When they show the footage of rock fighting ezzy he starts going off on how Rocky fought old men, hitting on top of the head...

Yea thats what I always thought, he was being nice because Rocky had just died.

Steak
04-21-2009, 12:38 AM
I am much more impressed with Marciano than I am of Dempsey. so I dont blame Ali for saying such.

sleazyfellow
04-21-2009, 12:54 AM
Personally I say that was post-prime Dempsey but Ali is a different fighter.

Obviously was, he was way faster before. Thats what hollywood does to fighters, makes them lose their next fight lol.

them_apples
04-21-2009, 02:19 AM
you can't really use stuff like "Ali looked bad against so and so" Every fighter looks bad at some point, if its a direct style match up that's a little different. It's pretty easy to make a list of lesser names that Rocky struggled with as well.

mickey malone
04-21-2009, 01:05 PM
Whoooo! Baby...... Ali would have owned em both, by also getting battered in the process.. Probably both DC's...

MarkScott
04-21-2009, 01:13 PM
I think Ali would have had more trouble with Dempsey because of Dempsey's awesome left hook. Ali got knocked down and hurt with left hooks mostly.


http://www.amazon.com/Joe-Gans-Biography-American-Champion/dp/0786439947/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240329666&sr=1-1

-Blackout-
04-22-2009, 09:15 AM
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