View Full Version : Jersey Joe Walcott vs. George Foreman


Thunder Lips
04-17-2009, 02:35 AM
I'm not sure this match up has been discussed too frequently, I find it very interesting.


http://www.east-buc.k12.ia.us/02_03/BH/jw/jw.jpg
Joe Walcott
Height: 6' 0"
Weight: 194 lb

vs.


https://msbush.wikispaces.com/file/view/GeorgeForeman-22.jpg
George Foreman
Height: 6' 3 1/2"
Weight: 217 lbs


"Walcott did not directly attack, rather he subtly lured his opponent to him. Employing ***8220;the Walcott Shuffle,***8221; he created innovative punching angles that took adversaries by surprise. Walcott not only feinted with his hands, but with his shoulders and upper body. Opponents were often thrown off balance as Walcott deftly avoided their attacks until the moment he unloaded a variety of devastating, unexpected punches on them."

"Foreman ran off a string of 37 consecutive victories over some of the heavyweight division's most well-unknown names, dissembling 34 of them into smaller, neater pieces with his ponderous punches, delivered in the manner of a man hewing down trees. "


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o08Nt6HPidg

Foreman earns a tough decision over the small and slick Gregorio Peralta.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gB09VEEZvM

Despite the judges favoring Louis aggression, Walcott puts on a clinic against the bigger stronger Champion.

So who you got? The powerful Foreman would have to be the favorite but I really like Walcott's chances of frustrating the big man and earning a decision.

Miburo
04-17-2009, 03:24 AM
Walcott was a highly skilled fighter, but if Marciano could finish him, Foreman could as well, probably in half the time. I'd go with Foreman by a mid-round stoppage, just too much of a size and power advantage.

slicksouthpaw16
04-17-2009, 03:32 AM
Walcott was a highly skilled fighter, but if Marciano could finish him, Foreman could as well, probably in half the time. I'd go with Foreman by a mid-round stoppage, just too much of a size and power advantage.

Agreed. I see Foreman being too physically strong for Walcott who was extremely skilled but took chances and would be out weighed by a considerable amount and would be in against the hardest puncher in his career. This knockout could end up being as or even more brutal than the Marciano one.

Miburo
04-17-2009, 03:37 AM
This knockout could end up being as or even more brutal than the Marciano one.

That would be pretty difficult to do, that was one of those Julian Jackson-esque knockouts where you think the man may be dead he's out for so long.

Southpaw16BF
04-17-2009, 09:28 AM
A pretty interesting match up here. In Jersey Joe Walcott you have a real cutie, with full of tricks up his sleeve, great defence, great movement and footwork and brillant craftminship. Walcott also had power in his left hook and right cross.

In George Foreman, you have one of the strongest ever Heavyweights, with scary power to demolish heavyweights including Joe Frazierx2, Ken Norton, Ron Lyle, Gerry Cooney, and Michael Moorer. Foreman had awesome natrual power, and didn't really throw his power shots the texbook way or even on balance. But his his wild swings especailly the roundhouse right ko'd most. Fighters saw it coming, but it didn't matter one bit.

Foreman would have a big weight advantage on the 6''0 foot 196lbs Walcott. Foreman being 6***8242; 3***8243; and weighed 220/230lbs in his prime.

But they don't come much more clever and slippey than Jersey Joe Walcott, and for the first couple of rounds he could have all the tools to cause the slow plodding Foreman trouble with his footwork, movement and slippery ability.

Foreman always struggled with mover's and slippey fighters etc Muhhamed Ali, Jimmy Young.

But Walcott's chin wasn't great (KO'd 6 times), and he may cause Foreman alot of problems but after the first 2 to 3 rounds, Foreman would most likey use his strength and catch Walcott with a wild swinging right cross and this would probaly spell the end for Jersey Joe.

But there is a chance like I said Walcott could use his boxing abilty, movement and footwork to outbox Foreman and get past the first 6 rounds with him and Foreman could tire and Walcott could come out with the win.

But I will stick with my first prediction.

Southpaw16BF
04-17-2009, 09:33 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/furniture/in_depth/other_sports/2000/lewis_v_tua/slideshow/5.jpg

VS

http://msbush.wikispaces.com/file/view/GeorgeForeman-22.jpg

Jersey Joe Walcott
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George Foreman
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cotto16
04-17-2009, 09:46 AM
To behonest i wouldnt be surprised if jersey joe boxed the ears off big george, foreman has never like movers, go and watch the young fight for proof, he struggled when tommy morrison began to box and move. If walcot come into this fight with his dancing shoes on as he did in the first louis fights he makes a fool of big george

slicksouthpaw16
04-17-2009, 11:22 AM
That would be pretty difficult to do, that was one of those Julian Jackson-esque knockouts where you think the man may be dead he's out for so long.

Definitely, although Foreman was a much harder puncher than Marciano and Joe would be out matched in size by a lot. He hasn't fought that kind of devastating puncher before. George even made Frazier seem like he had a glass chin.

Thunder Lips
04-17-2009, 06:29 PM
Walcott was a highly skilled fighter, but if Marciano could finish him, Foreman could as well, probably in half the time. I'd go with Foreman by a mid-round stoppage, just too much of a size and power advantage.


I don't know about that. It took Marciano 13 Rounds of relentless pressure to finally wear down Walcott enough to catch him. Foreman was at his best destroying overmatched swarmers like Kirkman, Chuvalo, Frazier, and Norton in the early rounds. He struggled against elusive fighters that made him work; Peralta, Ali, Young, and even Lye before he got suckered into a brawl. In contrast, Marciano's high workrate swarming was ideal for breaking down elusive fighters like Walcott, LaStarza, Matthews, Charles, and Moore. By this logic, Foreman should have got to Ali cause Frazier did.

The bigger stalking Joe Louis is a better measuring stick and it still took him two fights to finally catch Walcott late with a slick counter over the jab. Even at that stage in his career, Louis was a smarter, quicker, and more accurate puncher than George, he also never had fatigue problems and could afford to stalk his opponent into deep water. Foreman was much more physically powerful but that isn't going to help when your swinging at air and getting tagged with crisp counters all night.

Thanks for the replies, keep them coming.

Slimey Limey
04-17-2009, 06:54 PM
Walcott was extremely great, one of the best of all time.

But George Foreman would win this fight by KO in the opening seconds of round 1.

them_apples
04-17-2009, 09:06 PM
I'd say George by KO in round 6 or 7. Wallcott fights on the back foot then gets caught by something huge. In big fights Foreman always came to kill, Wallcott would be a big fight.

I could see Walcott slipping in some shots while suckering Foreman into a trap, but realizing it would do nothing to Georges chin.

Slimey Limey
04-18-2009, 06:18 AM
I'd say George by KO in round 6 or 7. Wallcott fights on the back foot then gets caught by something huge. In big fights Foreman always came to kill, Wallcott would be a big fight.

I could see Walcott slipping in some shots while suckering Foreman into a trap, but realizing it would do nothing to Georges chin.

Ali and Young knocked his ass all over the ring with sharp accurate shots on the button. I don't think heavy punchers like Frazier or Lewis could get him down like that. Walcott has the ability to knock him down like Young. But the lad wouldn't make it till then i'm affraid.

Thunder Lips
04-18-2009, 10:37 PM
Also, Sub 200 lb Peralta busted up Foreman pretty good and had him out on his feet at the end of their first fight. Accuracy goes a long way.

Southpaw Stinger
04-18-2009, 10:52 PM
Also, Sub 200 lb Peralta busted up Foreman pretty good and had him out on his feet at the end of their first fight. Accuracy goes a long way.

But bear in mind that was only George's 16th pro fight and Peralta was an experienced fighter. When Walcott was at his 16th he'd already lost twice, once by KO.

Southpaw16BF
04-19-2009, 01:08 AM
See this the thing with this match up, both fighters have the tools to beat each other and potentially cause each other problems. As both are each other's weakness in a sense.

Foreman struggled with sippery boxer/movers like Walcott, and Foreman easily had the power to KO Walcott, as Walcott chin was a negative point in his arsenal.

res
04-19-2009, 01:59 AM
Ali and Young knocked his ass all over the ring with sharp accurate shots on the button. I don't think heavy punchers like Frazier or Lewis could get him down like that. Walcott has the ability to knock him down like Young. But the lad wouldn't make it till then i'm affraid.

Weird characterization of the young Fight. For the first part of the fight Young would just throw out two weak jabs and then ran into Foreman's arms like he was his lover lol. He waited for Foreman to tire then he got more brave and aggressive

We know Ali waited it out with the rope a dope strategy.

If Walcott tried to end it earlier as you suggest it would be curtians for him in my opinion.

As Southpaw says Walcott does have the tools to win, it's a bit of a toss up.


But if I were betting i would go for Foreman. I think Walcott would be braver than Young and not as smart as Ali.

them_apples
04-19-2009, 07:23 AM
Weird characterization of the young Fight. For the first part of the fight Young would just throw out two weak jabs and then ran into Foreman's arms like he was his lover lol. He waited for Foreman to tire then he got more brave and aggressive

We know Ali waited it out with the rope a dope strategy.

If Walcott tried to end it earlier as you suggest it would be curtians for him in my opinion.

As Southpaw says Walcott does have the tools to win, it's a bit of a toss up.


But if I were betting i would go for Foreman. I think Walcott would be braver than Young and not as smart as Ali.

When Foreman wasn't tired he never went down, as we saw in his comeback. Weight helps a bit yes, but against Qawi he got down to 235, only 5 lbs shy of his departure, 15 of his prime, and his chin couldn't be faulted.

Even against Ali he got up right away and didn't seem hurt. After seeing the shots he took from Holyfield you know he's got one of those iron chins. This is the same case with Joe Frazier, whose left hook did nothing but tickle George even when it landed flush.

Slimey Limey
04-19-2009, 09:19 AM
Weird characterization of the young Fight. For the first part of the fight Young would just throw out two weak jabs and then ran into Foreman's arms like he was his lover lol. He waited for Foreman to tire then he got more brave and aggressive

We know Ali waited it out with the rope a dope strategy.

If Walcott tried to end it earlier as you suggest it would be curtians for him in my opinion.

As Southpaw says Walcott does have the tools to win, it's a bit of a toss up.


But if I were betting i would go for Foreman. I think Walcott would be braver than Young and not as smart as Ali.

Like I said, Walcott won't make it further than the opening seconds of the first round, so don't disagree with me here mate.

When Foreman wasn't tired he never went down, as we saw in his comeback. Weight helps a bit yes, but against Qawi he got down to 235, only 5 lbs shy of his departure, 15 of his prime, and his chin couldn't be faulted.

Even against Ali he got up right away and didn't seem hurt. After seeing the shots he took from Holyfield you know he's got one of those iron chins. This is the same case with Joe Frazier, whose left hook did nothing but tickle George even when it landed flush.

Against Ali he was up at 9 so that's incorrect. In the second fight against Frazier he did get stunned a few times by the left hook. I think Foreman could be ko'd but one needs a stellar chin first.

Thunder Lips
04-19-2009, 07:31 PM
But bear in mind that was only George's 16th pro fight and Peralta was an experienced fighter. When Walcott was at his 16th he'd already lost twice, once by KO.


It is the start of a pattern that would haunt Foreman throughout his first career. Big George never improved his stamina or pacing(it may have got worse) and counter punchers continued to hurt and frustrate him.

A young, poorly conditioned and trained Walcott getting Koed early by the likes of Abe Simon doesn't really foreshadow a glaring weakness that would trouble him throughout his career. During his peak run, Walcott would go on to defeat or make a good account of himself against bigger punchers like Lee Q Murray, Elmer Ray, and Joe Louis.

Thunder Lips
04-19-2009, 07:38 PM
When Foreman wasn't tired he never went down, as we saw in his comeback.

He wasn't tired when Lye was knocking him around the ring.

Kid McCoy
04-19-2009, 08:54 PM
It is the start of a pattern that would haunt Foreman throughout his first career. Big George never improved his stamina or pacing(it may have got worse) and counter punchers continued to hurt and frustrate him.

A young, poorly conditioned and trained Walcott getting Koed early by the likes of Abe Simon doesn't really foreshadow a glaring weakness that would trouble him throughout his career. During his peak run, Walcott would go on to defeat or make a good account of himself against bigger punchers like Lee Q Murray, Elmer Ray, and Joe Louis.

Yet you cut Foreman no slack for struggling with (but still beating) an experienced and slick operator in his first year as a pro. Foreman turned up in San Juan a day before the Young fight out-of-shape and without acclimatising, expecting an easy three rounder. His own fault, of course, but it should be taken into account.

In pointing out Foreman's weaknesses it's worth bearing in mind that Walcott was not exactly invulnerable either. On occasions he could be out-boxed and KO'd, and they can't all be explained away. Rex Layne, for instance, upset him just before one of the Charles rematches, and he wasn't underfed that night.

Thunder Lips
04-19-2009, 09:53 PM
Yet you cut Foreman no slack for struggling with (but still beating) an experienced and slick operator in his first year as a pro. Foreman turned up in San Juan a day before the Young fight out-of-shape and without acclimatising, expecting an easy three rounder. His own fault, of course, but it should be taken into account.

In pointing out Foreman's weaknesses it's worth bearing in mind that Walcott was not exactly invulnerable either. On occasions he could be out-boxed and KO'd, and they can't all be explained away. Rex Layne, for instance, upset him just before one of the Charles rematches, and he wasn't underfed that night.

Nobody is perfect night in and night out. But I'm not hand picking Foreman's worst nights to make him look bad and that should be obvious. If I was matching up Foreman with Marciano say, I could give a flying **** if he struggled against Peralta or not. He crushed Frazier and Kirkman and that should be getting the most attention.

I'm looking at style match ups and if Foreman struggled against counter/movers at every point during his first career we have little choice but to consider what we have in this matchup. Foreman nuking Frazier and Norton is impressive but not nearly as revelant in this instance as to how he responded to Young, Ali, Peralta, and even Lye's counter punching and movement. Sure he didn't always lose and there are always excuses but he clearly had problems beyond experience and outside circumstances when he had to face fighters like this. Sorry, but I think there is an obvious pattern that should be addressed.

"Look how he handled Frazier and Lyle, they said; look how he shortened his punches, they went on. Sure, how else are you going to hit a guy who is in your face trying to pull out your wisdom teeth? ***8220;Both those guys are easier to hit than a heavy bag,***8221; Young said a few days before the fight. ***8220;Foreman still cannot punch when he has to chase somebody.***8221;"


I'm not sure there is footage of the Layne/Walcott match up but I can see where he might have struggled. Layne was a durable highworkrate Chuvalo like swarmer who also gave the slick Ezzard Charles tough fights and walked through Satterfield to stop him late.

TheGreatA
04-19-2009, 10:01 PM
Yet you cut Foreman no slack for struggling with (but still beating) an experienced and slick operator in his first year as a pro. Foreman turned up in San Juan a day before the Young fight out-of-shape and without acclimatising, expecting an easy three rounder. His own fault, of course, but it should be taken into account.

In pointing out Foreman's weaknesses it's worth bearing in mind that Walcott was not exactly invulnerable either. On occasions he could be out-boxed and KO'd, and they can't all be explained away. Rex Layne, for instance, upset him just before one of the Charles rematches, and he wasn't underfed that night.

Peralta was experienced in dealing with sluggers such as George Foreman. He drew with Bonavena and Ron Lyle as well, a really slick if under-sized heavyweight.

Foreman toughed it out though. The rumour goes that Foreman's trainer Dick Saddler said after the 8th that the next round will be the last which made Foreman go out and waste all of his energy in the 9th, thus looking like a spent fighter in the 10th.

The rematch was probably Foreman's greatest showing of late round punching power during his first career as Foreman was able to stop Peralta in the 10th round of the fight.

Southpaw Stinger
04-19-2009, 10:03 PM
Peralta was experienced in dealing with sluggers such as George Foreman. He drew with Bonavena and Ron Lyle as well, a really slick if under-sized heavyweight.

Foreman toughed it out though. The rumour goes that Foreman's trainer Dick Saddler said after the 8th that the next round will be the last which made Foreman go out and waste all of his energy in the 9th, thus looking like a spent fighter in the 10th.

The rematch was probably Foreman's greatest showing of late round punching power as Foreman was able to stop Peralta in the 10th round of the fight.


And breaking Peralta's arm(s) in the process I believe.

res
04-19-2009, 10:04 PM
Like I said, Walcott won't make it further than the opening seconds of the first round, so don't disagree with me here mate.



Against Ali he was up at 9 so that's incorrect. In the second fight against Frazier he did get stunned a few times by the left hook. I think Foreman could be ko'd but one needs a stellar chin first.

Oh O.k. I misunderstood you, I thought the "lad" that "wouldn't make it" was Foreman.

Thunder Lips
04-19-2009, 10:15 PM
Does anyone know if there is any footage of Foreman/Peralta II? Would be a very interesting match. From what I read, Peralta got stopped on the ropes. It is young Foreman's latest stoppage on record. Foreman didn't really do bad against Peralta in their first outing either. It is probably the most active I've seen him chase somebody down with his jab .