View Full Version : Jack Johnson's Thoughts On Joe Louis.


Southpaw16BF
04-13-2009, 03:47 PM
This is what the great Jack Johnson had to say about a young Joe Louis

''Louis was a slow footed manufactured boxer and a sucker for the right, with Poor Craftsmanship and Marked Mechanical Flaws''

Johnson seems very bitter toward Louis. This could be due to the fact that Johnson wanted to train Louis, but Louis was instead trained by former fighter Jackie Blackburn.

Jackie Blackburn and Johnson had a dislike for each other. Blackburn blamed Johnson for the way Blacks were treated in that era, and that fellow black people had to pay for his sins.

Jack Johnson also had a hatered for Blackburn aswell.

http://cghs.dadeschools.net/african-american/reconstruct/jack_johnson.jpg

http://maxwellmusze.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/birm-silouis_0412.jpg

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/blackburn-jack-2.jpg

Two Clips
04-13-2009, 03:54 PM
This is what the great Jack Johnson had to say about a young Joe Louis

''Louis was a slow footed manufactured boxer and a sucker for the right, with Poor Craftsmanship and Marked Mechanical Flaws''

Johnson seems very bitter toward Louis. This could be due to the fact that Johnson wanted to train Louis, but Louis was instead trained by former fighter Jackie Blackburn.

Jackie Blackburn and Johnson had a dislike for each other. Blackburn blamed Johnson for the way Blacks were treated in that era, and that fellow black people had to pay for his sins.

Jack Johnson also had a hatered for Blackburn aswell.

http://cghs.dadeschools.net/african-american/reconstruct/jack_johnson.jpg

http://maxwellmusze.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/birm-silouis_0412.jpg

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/blackburn-jack-2.jpgI think that Johnson wasn't afraid to be himself in a time when it wasn't so cool to do so as a black man. Louis was a beast in the ring but wasn't able to be himself because of fear that the white public wouldn't except him.

TheGreatA
04-13-2009, 04:05 PM
Jack Johnson was the advisor of number 7 ranked heavyweight contender named Leroy Haynes who fought some of the best contenders in his time and twice knocked out former heavyweight champion Primo Carnera.

http://pro.corbis.com/images/U349410ACME.jpg?size=67&uid={32139814-210a-49c4-8cd1-639cc1eba822}

http://pro.corbis.com/images/U349411ACME.jpg?size=67&uid={6d41d1ed-a6cd-43b6-bfa9-e9bf43ea7563}

I believe he also gave advice to Max Schmeling who went onto beat Joe Louis in 1936.

"You know, boy, the heavyweight division for a Negro is hardly likely. The white man ain't too keen on it. You have to be something to go anywhere. If you really ain't gonna be another Jack Johnson, you got some hope. White man hasn't forgotten that fool n***** with his white women, acting like he owned the world."

-Jack Blackburn

Blackburn was quite bitter for never receiving a title shot himself. None of the black heavyweights he trained, including George Godfrey and Jersey Joe Walcott, were given a shot either.

That was until Joe Louis of course.

Stab Judah
04-13-2009, 04:19 PM
Johnson also said "He's not a very bright man":dance:
Past champs always seem to dislike the next generation, Joe Louis was the same way with Ali and Holmes is the same way about Tyson & Holyfield and everyone else for that matter.

Southpaw16BF
04-13-2009, 04:27 PM
Johnson also said "He's not a very bright man":dance:
Past champs always seem to dislike the next generation, Joe Louis was the same way with Ali and Holmes is the same way about Tyson & Holyfield and everyone else for that matter.

Unless Johnson made another remark about it, but i belive Gene Tunney made the remark of Joe Louis not being a bright boy here's his exact words ''Not a very bright boy'' said Tunney

Southpaw16BF
04-13-2009, 04:34 PM
Jack Johnson was the advisor of number 7 ranked heavyweight contender named Leroy Haynes who fought some of the best contenders in his time and twice knocked out former heavyweight champion Primo Carnera.

http://pro.corbis.com/images/U349410ACME.jpg?size=67&uid={32139814-210a-49c4-8cd1-639cc1eba822}

http://pro.corbis.com/images/U349411ACME.jpg?size=67&uid={6d41d1ed-a6cd-43b6-bfa9-e9bf43ea7563}

I believe he also gave advice to Max Schmeling who went onto beat Joe Louis in 1936.



-Jack Blackburn

Blackburn was quite bitter for never receiving a title shot himself. None of the black heavyweights he trained, including George Godfrey and Jersey Joe Walcott, were given a shot either.

That was until Joe Louis of course.

Indeed, Johnson was the advisor for Leroy Haynes. Haynes was a decent fighter in his prime who twice knocked out former World Heavyweight Champion Primo Carnera. He done it in the same year 1936.

Haynes never fought for the title. The Carnera wins were his best wins, in other big fights he would twice be beaten on UD by Maxie Rosenbloom who he had alot of weight on. Hard punching slugger Tony Galento also knocked him out in 3 rounds in 1937.

He retired with a 69 fight record wining 45, losing 20, drawing 4, and he knocked out 35 and was was knocked out 6 times himslef.

Here's another picture of him.
http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/3/39/Haynes.Leroy.jpg

billionaire
04-13-2009, 04:44 PM
damn jack had an alien cranium lol.....

johnson went to 2 of louis training camps until he was kicked out.....allegedly blackburn got the best of him in a sparring session before joe was born and they couldnt let it go......also jack didnt like how louis acted like a coward in public........alot of people got mad that jack predicted schmelling would beat louis.....i believe he did finally give louis credit years later but im not sure of that

Southpaw16BF
04-13-2009, 04:48 PM
Johnson also said "He's not a very bright man":dance:
Past champs always seem to dislike the next generation, Joe Louis was the same way with Ali and Holmes is the same way about Tyson & Holyfield and everyone else for that matter.

Some seem to be, but not all. George Foreman claims that Lennox Lewis is the best heavyweight of all time, and said this while Lennox was still a active fighter.
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Slimey Limey
04-13-2009, 04:50 PM
Everything Jack Johnson said about Louis was 100% correct, so what is the problem here lads.

Southpaw16BF
04-13-2009, 05:01 PM
Blackburn was lean and lanky, quick, and clever, and knew how to fight; He possessed fast hands, a careful yet aggressive style, and utilized a lethal jab accompanied by a snapping left hook; Jack often fought bigger and heavier men and more than held his own; He claimed to have had nearly 400 bouts in his career

Blackburn fought many outstanding men of boxing and despite a size disadvantage (in many bouts) gave them all they could handle; Among them were Joe Gans (3 times), Sam Langford (6 times), George Cole (3 times), Larry Temple (2 times), Dave Holly (5 times), George Gunther (10 times), "Philadelphia" Jack O'Brien, Ed "Gunboat" Smith, Harry Greb, Joe Borrell (2 times), Kid Norfolk, and Panama" Joe Gans

Among those he defeated during his career were Steve Crosby, Howard Wilson, Vernon Campbell, Jimmy Gardner, Harry Lenny, Charles Hitte, Joe Grim, Cy Flynn, Jack Williams, George Gunther, Cleve Hawkins, George Cole, Herman Miller, Fred Bradley, Jim Barry, Harry Lewis, Mike Donovan, Jack Bonner, Terry Martin, Tony Caponi, Harry Mansfield, Tommy Howell, and Henry Hauber
After he retired from the ring, Blackburn trained fighters -- among them were Sammy Mandell, Charles "Bud" Taylor, and Jersey Joe Walcott (briefly); He is most famous for instructing the "Brown Bomber, " Joe Louis, in the finer points of pugilism

Charley Rose ranked Blackburn as the #3 All-Time Lightweight; In 1992, he was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame for his work as a trainer.
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/blackburn.htm

Jackie Blackburn's Record
http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11022&cat=boxer

Bio On Blackburn
http://www.boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Human:11022

Stanley Ketchel was said that Jackie Blackburn dosen't feel pain, and was belived to of backed out of a fight with him.

Blackburn was also a Alcoholic.

Stab Judah
04-13-2009, 05:44 PM
Unless Johnson made another remark about it, but i belive Gene Tunney made the remark of Joe Louis not being a bright boy here's his exact words ''Not a very bright boy'' said Tunney

Could have been a misquote I heard it on either the Jack Johnson doc or the Joe Louis one.

Stab Judah
04-13-2009, 05:47 PM
Some seem to be, but not all. George Foreman claims that Lennox Lewis is the best heavyweight of all time, and said this while Lennox was still a active fighter.
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Yeah I didn't mean all of them.
That's why I like George he gives credit if deserved.
Holmes on the other hand I love as a boxer but I can't listen to anything he says.

Southpaw Stinger
04-13-2009, 05:58 PM
Some seem to be, but not all. George Foreman claims that Lennox Lewis is the best heavyweight of all time, and said this while Lennox was still a active fighter.
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George has a different one every week.

Southpaw16BF
04-13-2009, 06:05 PM
George has a different one every week.

Maybe, but i have heard Foreman say Lewis is the best on a good few occasions.

Southpaw Stinger
04-13-2009, 06:42 PM
Maybe, but i have heard Foreman say Lewis is the best on a good few occasions.

I've heard him say Louis, Lewis, Ali, Marciano ...

Depends who he's talking to I suppose.

Southpaw16BF
04-13-2009, 06:42 PM
Yeah I didn't mean all of them.
That's why I like George he gives credit if deserved.
Holmes on the other hand I love as a boxer but I can't listen to anything he says.

Yeah at times Holmes can be hard to listen to. In his book ''Agianst The Odds'' he says Mike Tyson cound't of been a sparring parthers for the fighters of the era he was involved in. Which is pretty silly, so Mike Tyson cound't of been a sparring parther for Earnie Shavers???

I think a prime ''trained'' Mike Tyson would of handled Shavers without much trouble to be onest.

But other than that his book is a real good read.

LondonRingRules
04-13-2009, 07:54 PM
Jack Johnson was the advisor of number 7 ranked heavyweight contender named Leroy Haynes who fought some of the best contenders in his time and twice knocked out former heavyweight champion Primo Carnera.

** Great images as always. JJ looks like some kind of eggheaded alien. He really went to pot pretty fast which contrasted the only part of his body that didn't shrink, his outsized noggin.

Some context with Primo. The Haynes fights were of the last 3 of his career, including his last one against a novice who'd never won a single fight, the only fight he ever won. Primo was the only name Haynes, who was a game journeyman, that was the sole shining moment in his career.

Primo had a kidney disease and was diabetic. He has a kidney removed two years after the Hayne's fights. He was fighting as a sick man after his manager ran off with all his dough. See Tony Tucker and Mike Tyson to see how that plays out.

As far as what Johnson thought about Joe, Joe was like everyone Johnson ever met. Johnson saw opportunity to get something out of Joe, either talk Joe into ousting Blackburn and hiring Johnson, or allowing Johnson a title shot.

The dismissal of Joe only came after Blackburn and Louis kicked Johnson out of Joe's training camp. He was quite jealous of the attention Joe got where in the past JJ belonged to an exclusive club.

As to Flaws, Joe has less flaws than did Johnson who fought very defensively to protect a glass jaw which reduced his win totals. The irony of Johnson's death, speeding and crashing his car on the way to the Louis/Conn rematch is telling as to how important Louis actually was to him.

them_apples
04-13-2009, 08:15 PM
I'd see Louis knocking out Johnson quite early, speaking of technical flaws - Johnson had horrible punching technique. Louis on the other hand had nice short and sharp punches.

Southpaw16BF
04-13-2009, 09:04 PM
Johnson may have weakness (Like all fighters do) But he had more natrual ability than other pre World War 2 Heavyweight. Johnson could pick off incoming flack from the air while placing his own blows, virtually in the same movement.

Johnson also had a amazing skill set, as well as a great boxing brain. He was also stronger than his comtemporaries, including the 227 Jim Jeffiries (Do Jeffries was past his prime) whom he outmuscled up close and outboxed at range.

He often carried opponets, but possessed underrated knockout power in both hands. Between 1901 and 1926 his only losses in 87 bouts were a DQ loss against Joe Jeannette(Whom he twice beat) a points loss to Marvin Hart (Certainly a thrown fight) and a 26 round stoppage to Jess Willard, when Johnson was 37 and well past his best. Ubeliveable Stat.

But like i said Johnson like all fighter's had weakness. Johnson was often a lazy trainer and never liked to train. And 5 stoppage defeats in 113 fights does suggest he never had the hardest chin. When Champ he also drew the colour line on his own race, as he felt to risky and not enough money to fights the likes of Langford again.

But in my mind, there is no taking away Jack Johnson was a specail fighter.

Southpaw16BF
04-13-2009, 09:09 PM
I'd see Louis knocking out Johnson quite early, speaking of technical flaws - Johnson had horrible punching technique. Louis on the other hand had nice short and sharp punches.

You say Johnson had horrible punching technique. Johnson actually had great accuracy and timing. You probaly don't understand that Johnson came from a era of pre combination punching and and era of single blows and incessant clinching.

But we have to look at that era's style, and for Johnson's era his Technique was brillant.

When Joe Louis was about combinations punching had come around and techniques etc.

LondonRingRules
04-13-2009, 11:16 PM
You say Johnson had horrible punching technique. Johnson actually had great accuracy and timing. You probaly don't understand that Johnson came from a era of pre combination punching and and era of single blows and incessant clinching.

But we have to look at that era's style, and for Johnson's era his Technique was brillant.

When Joe Louis was about combinations punching had come around and techniques etc.

** My young friend, lets not limit the era to Johnson's dreary style.

Ketchel was a non stop punching machine, singles, doubles, quadruples, when and where he could, it didn't matter. McGovern can be seen throwing 3-4-5 punch combinations at Gans who even manages a couple in a beatdown.

Ad Wolgast was a freestyling switch hitter and let the punches flow as his juices dictated. I'm certain that Jackson and Corbett, both noted boxers threw combos.

Hell, my 3 yr old son ran out to block the front door of a bakery we were walking to to prevent my 4 yr old from entering first and threw a brilliant 20 punch combo in a flash, having never seen a boxing match or been trained in any martial art. Looked Like Ray Leonard Jr he did.

Combo punching is as instinctive as single punching. Johnson developed his style because he was so big and strong he could control the action better with a grapple. If he could throw a combo or single KO punch, you'd think a big lazy guy like him would've done so. He preferred a safety approach having been the victim of KOs and it worked for a while against soft comp.

Southpaw16BF
04-14-2009, 08:38 AM
** My young friend, lets not limit the era to Johnson's dreary style.

Ketchel was a non stop punching machine, singles, doubles, quadruples, when and where he could, it didn't matter. McGovern can be seen throwing 3-4-5 punch combinations at Gans who even manages a couple in a beatdown.

Ad Wolgast was a freestyling switch hitter and let the punches flow as his juices dictated. I'm certain that Jackson and Corbett, both noted boxers threw combos.

Hell, my 3 yr old son ran out to block the front door of a bakery we were walking to to prevent my 4 yr old from entering first and threw a brilliant 20 punch combo in a flash, having never seen a boxing match or been trained in any martial art. Looked Like Ray Leonard Jr he did.

Combo punching is as instinctive as single punching. Johnson developed his style because he was so big and strong he could control the action better with a grapple. If he could throw a combo or single KO punch, you'd think a big lazy guy like him would've done so. He preferred a safety approach having been the victim of KOs and it worked for a while against soft comp.

But in Jack Johnson's era, he did fight in a era of clinch filled rounds, before combination punching was intergal part of the game.And over the next few era's combination punching did evolve.

Johnson did have great clinch control and at times could control fights with his clinching, but he didn't just soley win fights off clinching. Do you think Jim Jeffiries would of just quit of clinching? Johnson was a very effective puncher and did have great timing. Do you think the beating Sam Langford recieved at the hands of Johnson was just due to clinching? Langford claimed ''Johnson gave me the only beating i ever took''

As as i said in Johnson's era clinching was big part of the his era, he wasn't the only fighter doing it, but he used it more to his advantage as he was very good at it.

If you watch Stanley Ketchel vs Billy Papke IV you will see there is a lot of clinching between the two for the duration of the fight. And in the Papke and Johnson fights at times you could see that Ketchel didn't go above the limitations of his era, upright stance, slow feet, single punchers, and incessant clinching.

I'am not saying there was no combination punchers in Johnson's era, but they were far and few between.

LondonRingRules
04-14-2009, 02:49 PM
As as i said in Johnson's era clinching was big part of the his era, he wasn't the only fighter doing it, but he used it more to his advantage as he was very good at it.

If you watch Stanley Ketchel vs Billy Papke IV you will see there is a lot of clinching between the two for the duration of the fight. And in the Papke and Johnson fights at times you could see that Ketchel didn't go above the limitations of his era, upright stance, slow feet, single punchers, and incessant clinching.

I'am not saying there was no combination punchers in Johnson's era, but they were far and few between.

** Yes, Johnson and Jeff's era was more grapple/clinch friendly and most all the greats were very good in their special facets of the inside game including clinching.

You do need to be more circumspect in what you are viewing however. Papke initiates all the clinches and Ketchel is mightily frustrated which is what Papke wanted since Ketchell was the better fighter who had KOed him last time out.

Johnson is making a big show of controlling little Ketchel. Of course Ketchel knew the tricks of clinching, but he won his fights on his ferocious power and wasn't worried about his chin as much as Johnson, but he's the one struggling to get loose and fight. I've no doubt Johnson could throw combos, but he figured out a style that suited his personality and that's what we see on film and in fight reports.

And yes, I'd say that combination punching was still in development just as single shots were also. We saw Winky clinch Williams' right hand the other night and then Williams reaches over with his long wingspan and pops Winky a few times around his clinched right with his left, something Merchant in all his years had never seen.

Fighters have developed some new wrinkles that suit them in modern regulations, yet have forgotten some of the tricks of yore.

MarkScott
04-15-2009, 11:47 PM
He predicted exactly what would happen in the first Louis-Schmeling fight.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0786439947/ref=pd_luc_hashrec_03_03

Kelly Robinson
04-15-2009, 11:55 PM
All I know is that Jack Johnson was a bad ass. :boxing:

Ziggy Stardust
04-16-2009, 12:35 AM
Everything Jack Johnson said about Louis was 100% correct, so what is the problem here lads.

Funny how everyone just ignored this ignorant troll rather than dignify his inane post with a reply :rofl:

Poet

Slimey Limey
04-16-2009, 01:04 PM
Funny how everyone just ignored this ignorant troll rather than dignify his inane post with a reply :rofl:

Poet

Everyone but YOU.

So what does that make you?

Dignifying my post with a reply. Thank you.

j
04-18-2009, 01:44 AM
there definitely has to be made aware the different types of fighting styles in different eras were based on certain reasons.

gloves became increasingly more padded every 5 years almost for quite a time. some goals were - protecting the hands, which meant using body punches and led to more clinching. not far away from bareknuckle - wehidch including wrestling tactics as a valid part of western pugilism. conditioning - guys back then conditioned their body's to generally be "tougher" if i may say so. this meant making the fists very hard as you had less glove to pad a punch leading to easier KOs and also easier broken hands unless conditioned properly.

so, my point, is that fighting this way, back then, was more of a different game. different rules, different training, different standards, and different equipment.

j
04-18-2009, 01:46 AM
and my personal view, as a guess, is that jack johnson could beat joe, and maybe perhaps the otherway around too. back then it was not uncommon for great fitghters to have over 5 losses anyways.

JAB5239
04-18-2009, 04:30 AM
and my personal view, as a guess, is that jack johnson could beat joe, and maybe perhaps the otherway around too. back then it was not uncommon for great fitghters to have over 5 losses anyways.

Fighters had more losses because they fought more often and under harsher conditions than today. More often than not they had to take on the top fighters in their division any many times did so while injured because they needed the paycheck.