View Full Version : Ali was a Dick


baddest
04-11-2009, 09:36 PM
I'm watchin gthe Thrilla in Manilla documentary. What he did to Frazier, turning almost every black american against him was wrong. To call him an uncle tom when he was his friend and helped him get back on his feet made him a complete *******.

▀ringer
04-11-2009, 09:46 PM
Yup.

I'm a fan of both fighters, but first off let me say I'm a bit more bias towards Joe.

I can understand why Ali did what he did, to get in the head of Frazier and try to psyche him out to gain the mental advantage.

But it's something I could never do. I could never do something like that to a man who was, at one time, my friend. A man who gave me money to help feed my family, and a man who campaigned on my behalf to help me earn a living again.

Don't get me wrong, Muhammad Ali has done some very amazing things in his lifetime. His work as an ambassador for peace is astounding, his work with young Children is amazing, standing up to the United Sates Government for your own personal belief is nothing short of astonishing.

But he's also done some very horrible things in his life as well, things that most people just gloss over, or neglect altogether. Whether it was cheating on his wives, doing what he did to Smokin' Joe, or speaking at a KKK rally.

That said, I love both Ali and Frazier. And I always will. For who they are, who they were, and their accomplishments both inside and outside of the ring.

Hawk O'Connor
04-11-2009, 10:37 PM
Yup.

I'm a fan of both fighters, but first off let me say I'm a bit more bias towards Joe.

I can understand why Ali did what he did, to get in the head of Frazier and try to psyche him out to gain the mental advantage.

But it's something I could never do. I could never do something like that to a man who was, at one time, my friend. A man who gave me money to help feed my family, and a man who campaigned on my behalf to help me earn a living again.

Don't get me wrong, Muhammad Ali has done some very amazing things in his lifetime. His work as an ambassador for peace is astounding, his work with young Children is amazing, standing up to the United Sates Government for your own personal belief is nothing short of astonishing.

But he's also done some very horrible things in his life as well, things that most people just gloss over, or neglect altogether. Whether it was cheating on his wives, doing what he did to Smokin' Joe, or speaking at a KKK rally.

That said, I love both Ali and Frazier. And I always will. For who they are, who they were, and their accomplishments both inside and outside of the ring.

Like you, I am a fan of both fighters but I think the things Ali said were meant as not only fight promotion but as a way to tear Joe down in the eyes of the black community. Clearly polarizing the public because of the racial conditions of the time.

You can clearly see in the interviews that Ali wasn't just hamming it up for the promotion..he actually meant what he said and meant to do harm with his words. In that you see his mean streak and hypocrisy.

Benny Leonard
04-12-2009, 12:56 AM
I've been saying it for a while that Ali meant what he said to Joe and many people just respond that it was all Promotion. I say anybody that believes that it was all promotion and laughed with Ali, is a racist themselves.

It doesn't have to be a racist against Blacks; it can be the many topics that Ali touched on and threw at Frazier to tear him and his family down.

Ali was insecure while Frazier wasn't.

I wouldn't be surprised if it had to do with Frazier having darker skin than Ali who had tainted blood lines. So, he needed to tear down Frazier to feel not only accepted by the "Black community," but to be held higher than Frazier.

I'm not positive, but it didn't seem Frazier had a problem with "White" or "Black" people. Good people were Good people.

Stab Judah
04-12-2009, 01:09 AM
I've been saying it for a while that Ali meant what he said to Joe and many people just respond that it was all Promotion. I say anybody that believes that it was all promotion and laughed with Ali, is a racist themselves.

It doesn't have to be a racist against Blacks; it can be the many topics that Ali touched on and threw at Frazier to tear him and his family down.

Ali was insecure while Frazier wasn't.

I wouldn't be surprised if it had to do with Frazier having darker skin than Ali who had tainted blood lines. So, he needed to tear down Frazier to feel not only accepted by the "Black community," but to be held higher than Frazier.

I'm not positive, but it didn't seem Frazier had a problem with "White" or "Black" people. Good people were Good people.

Sorry to say but there is only a small amount of people on here who know boxing history past the 90's, hell even the 2000's.

JAB5239
04-12-2009, 08:49 AM
[QUOTE=The_Bringer;5056097]

But he's also done some very horrible things in his life as well, things that most people just gloss over, or neglect altogether. Whether it was cheating on his wives, doing what he did to Smokin' Joe, or speaking at a KKK rally.

Not sure I've heard that sory before. Could you give me some details my friend?

Abstraction
04-12-2009, 09:04 AM
That's one of the most ridiculous" documentary's" ever made.

Seriously Bias.

Ali apologised to Frazier, but Frazier has still remained angry and bitter all these years later.

Need to understand Ali played mind games with nearly all his opponents.

Hawk O'Connor
04-12-2009, 10:44 AM
That's one of the most ridiculous" documentary's" ever made.

Seriously Bias.

Ali apologised to Frazier, but Frazier has still remained angry and bitter all these years later.

Need to understand Ali played mind games with nearly all his opponents.

Huge difference between apologizing to someone's face and taking out an ad in the Times or to someone's kid and having them tell them. And the things Ali said weren't 'mind games'....i truly believe he used his words in a way to help further his cause. He (along with the NOI) truly believed Joe was working for the enemy.

And bias? Look at all the documentaries on Ali....they are extremely bias....why aren't you complaining about them?

sleazyfellow
04-12-2009, 11:21 AM
Ali is just like everybody, he made mistakes and the way he lashed out at frazier was just wrong, a few years after all that trash talk he regreted it. Frazier was more black than he was, he grew up in the ghetto and everything.

Slimey Limey
04-12-2009, 11:22 AM
[QUOTE]

Not sure I've heard that sory before. Could you give me some details my friend?

Not a surprise that you want some details about Ali's dick. You're in the wrong website mate.

Dr.Depravity
04-12-2009, 11:24 AM
I remember talking to my dad about it. Of course he was watching it all unfold live back in the day. He thought Ali was out of line and was actually cruel for what he tried to do to Joe.

Mugwump
04-12-2009, 11:43 AM
Ali's treatment of women was arguably even worse than the terrible hurt he inflicted on Frazier.

Like most I totally respect Ali's boxing skills, guts, determination etc. but I'm uncomfortable with the totalist veneration aimed at him.

George Orwell once said "Saints should be judged guility until proven innocent". In this case I agree with him.

Ali has reaped the adulation of the masses through a mythical media representation. It's time the media redressed the balance. For everyone's sake - including Ali's.

Abstraction
04-12-2009, 11:44 AM
Huge difference between apologizing to someone's face and taking out an ad in the Times or to someone's kid and having them tell them. And the things Ali said weren't 'mind games'....i truly believe he used his words in a way to help further his cause. He (along with the NOI) truly believed Joe was working for the enemy.

And bias? Look at all the documentaries on Ali....they are extremely bias....why aren't you complaining about them?

Because there is not a thread about them?

Ali was Human, and he played mind games with nearly every boxer he faced. Funny it takes a bias documentary for you to come out of your hole and criticize him now.

He admitted he is wrong, and wants to apologize, who, on earth, are YOU, to say otherwise?

It's time to Frazier to let go, do the right thing, and accept it.

Mugwump
04-12-2009, 11:51 AM
It's time to Frazier to let go, do the right thing, and accept it.

It's difficult for Frazier to let go because many people (unaware of the truth) still BELIEVE what Ali said about him (he wielded great influence).

Would YOU be able to "let go" if every week you bumped into someone who threw at you one of the worst insults imaginable?

I thought not.

res
04-12-2009, 12:10 PM
Ali's treatment of women was arguably even worse than the terrible hurt he inflicted on Frazier.

Like most I totally respect Ali's boxing skills, guts, determination etc. but I'm uncomfortable with the totalist veneration aimed at him.



Very true.


I've been saying it for a while that Ali meant what he said to Joe and many people just respond that it was all Promotion. I say anybody that believes that it was all promotion and laughed with Ali, is a racist themselves.


I don't know that, or how the portion in bold would be true. I don't think it makes Ali any better even if he was just doing it for promotion anyway. As A Black American he had no misconceptions about the power of the kind of language he was using against Joe, it is arguably even worse if he was just doing it for money and fame.

elfag
04-12-2009, 12:24 PM
I thought the documentary was pretty good and it also was fair. They showed the bad side of ali but also the bad side of fraizer as well with all his commments about Ali's parkisons, so it wasnt biased, I thought it was balanced.

Look I like Ali and I consider him the greatest heavy ever but he did cheat on his wives and he did do some horrible things to fraizer. Those are just the facts, Ali was an ******* at times, he was selfish doing whats best for him regardless of the people he hurt.

People get older and they change, Ali put that behind him now and I think regardless if he had gotten parkisons or not he still wouldnt have been like that now in his 60s.

But I dont think a documentary should try to sugarcoat the past, it should strive for accuracy.

1SILVA
04-12-2009, 12:25 PM
In the history of boxing, fighters have always used words to psyche their opponents out. Benny Paret called Emile Griffith a ******. Roberto Duran constantly barraged Juanita Leonard with sexual innuendos and foul language, causing immense anger from her husband Ray. Floyd mayweather called Diego Corrales a wife-beater and even came to the ring in their fight to a rap song mocking Diego's beating of his pregnant girlfriend. Mike Tyson bragged that he was going to eat Lennox Lewis and his children. Bernard Hopkins desecrated the Puerto Rican flag in Puerto Rico in front of Felix trinidad and hundreds of fans. Psychological warfare has always been a part of boxing. Is it right? Maybe morally no, but isn't all fair in love and war?

Muhammad said some very cruel and divisive things about frazier, but Joe was not the first he did this with. He was very cruel to Floyd Patterson and Ernie Terrell, even to the point of holding them up and inflicting unnecessary physical damage to each fighter. It takes a certain amount of cruelty to be a great fighter in the first place. Ali definitely was out of line, but he was no different than any other pugilist looking to gain any edge they could to win a fight. No one in the history of sports could match Ali's banter. He used that to very huge and effective advantage.

elfag
04-12-2009, 12:30 PM
That's one of the most ridiculous" documentary's" ever made.

Seriously Bias.

Ali apologised to Frazier, but Frazier has still remained angry and bitter all these years later.

Need to understand Ali played mind games with nearly all his opponents.

How is it biased, it did cover Ali's apology and it did cover Frazier's current bitterness. Just cause you apologize doesnt mean the stuff never happened. It covered everything the stuff in the 70s and the current state which you address now. I think it was balanced.

Mugwump
04-12-2009, 12:53 PM
The difference is - Ali's insults were broadcast to the world. Such was his popularity. Pretty much everybody hung on his every word because he had such charisma and lyrical wit.

Ali's apology was heard/read by very few. Ali, whilst still a media saint, does not command the audience he once did.

Granted, this is not Ali's fault but the fact remains that:

People who heard and believed Ali's insults > People who heard his apology.

Which leaves a mountain of people Joe Frazier is forced continuously to defend himself before.

mickey malone
04-12-2009, 01:13 PM
In the history of boxing, fighters have always used words to psyche their opponents out. Benny Paret called Emile Griffith a ******. Roberto Duran constantly barraged Juanita Leonard with sexual innuendos and foul language, causing immense anger from her husband Ray. Floyd mayweather called Diego Corrales a wife-beater and even came to the ring in their fight to a rap song mocking Diego's beating of his pregnant girlfriend. Mike Tyson bragged that he was going to eat Lennox Lewis and his children. Bernard Hopkins desecrated the Puerto Rican flag in Puerto Rico in front of Felix trinidad and hundreds of fans. Psychological warfare has always been a part of boxing. Is it right? Maybe morally no, but isn't all fair in love and war?

Muhammad said some very cruel and divisive things about frazier, but Joe was not the first he did this with. He was very cruel to Floyd Patterson and Ernie Terrell, even to the point of holding them up and inflicting unnecessary physical damage to each fighter. It takes a certain amount of cruelty to be a great fighter in the first place. Ali definitely was out of line, but he was no different than any other pugilist looking to gain any edge they could to win a fight. No one in the history of sports could match Ali's banter. He used that to very huge and effective advantage.
Yeah, you're spot on, and Leonard also used similar tactics before his fight with Hagler.. It's been going on throughout the history of boxing.. John L Sullivan was one of the worst offenders.. I'm affraid it's human nature in an ever competetive world.. Ali was just particularly good at it, but Frazier doesn't have Parkinsons, so there's the answer for everyone... The Karma wins every time!

Kid McCoy
04-12-2009, 01:48 PM
Because there is not a thread about them?

Ali was Human, and he played mind games with nearly every boxer he faced. Funny it takes a bias documentary for you to come out of your hole and criticize him now.

He admitted he is wrong, and wants to apologize, who, on earth, are YOU, to say otherwise?

It's time to Frazier to let go, do the right thing, and accept it.

So Ali spent years hurling racial insults at Frazier very publicly, to the extent that many of Frazier's own race turned against him and his kids were getting into fights at school over it, but it's all Frazier's fault for not laughing it off and saying "let's all be friends again"?

Frazier is human too, and some of the things Ali said and did would be hard for anyone to forgive. You weren't the one on the receiving end, so are you to say what Frazier should do?

Hawk O'Connor
04-12-2009, 02:19 PM
Frazier is human too, and some of the things Ali said and did would be hard for anyone to forgive. You weren't the one on the receiving end, so are you to say what Frazier should do?

Especially, considering, that Ali was supposed to be his friend. Not only that but Joe did alot for Ali and ended up getting burnt.

skyler
04-12-2009, 02:25 PM
Never really liked Ali seemed like a real *******.

joseph5620
04-12-2009, 03:17 PM
I'm watchin gthe Thrilla in Manilla documentary. What he did to Frazier, turning almost every black american against him was wrong. To call him an uncle tom when he was his friend and helped him get back on his feet made him a complete *******.

Frazier helped Ali fight again because it meant millions of dollars for BOTH. There was something in it for Frazier too. And Frazier also continued to insult Ali by calling him "Clay". Both mean did things that were not right but I get sick of the demonizing of Ali to make Frazier look like an angel. Frazier can be ever bit as much an ******* as Ali.

SweetSci
04-12-2009, 03:33 PM
ALI Was not a dick, This disgrace of a film was made by the Frasier camp. Thats all i have to say, never speak of the greatest that way

Mugwump
04-12-2009, 04:21 PM
Ali's racial taunting of Frazier is a cold, hard fact.

The most pro-Frazier documentary conceivable would in no way affect it.

TheGreatA
04-12-2009, 04:30 PM
Frazier helped Ali fight again because it meant millions of dollars for BOTH. There was something in it for Frazier too. And Frazier also continued to insult Ali by calling him "Clay". Both mean did things that were not right but I get sick of the demonizing of Ali to make Frazier look like an angel. Frazier can be ever bit as much an ******* as Ali.

I tend to agree with this. Ali had not come close to starting his "Uncle Tom" pre-fight promotion by the late 1960's yet the animosity between the two was very clear.

People might not understand it now but they were two world champions back when there were only supposed to be one.

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This was from 1969.

j
04-12-2009, 05:01 PM
Never really liked Ali seemed like a real *******.


i agree. dude had no class in those days.

Hawk O'Connor
04-12-2009, 07:27 PM
Frazier helped Ali fight again because it meant millions of dollars for BOTH. There was something in it for Frazier too. And Frazier also continued to insult Ali by calling him "Clay". Both mean did things that were not right but I get sick of the demonizing of Ali to make Frazier look like an angel. Frazier can be ever bit as much an ******* as Ali.

Yes Frazier continued to call him Clay but that was only after Ali started with all of the Uncle Tom name calling.

TheGreatA
04-12-2009, 07:35 PM
Yes Frazier continued to call him Clay but that was only after Ali started with all of the Uncle Tom name calling.

Ali didn't call Frazier a "Tom" until the pre-fight promotion for their 1971 match. Frazier always called Ali Cassius Clay.

He just didn't buy into it as Terrell and Patterson didn't. They were used to calling him Clay and had too much pride to start calling him Ali when Ali demanded it on live TV.

Afterwards Frazier started using the name Cassius Clay, overtly so, to anger Ali even more.

Hawk O'Connor
04-12-2009, 07:39 PM
Ali didn't call Frazier a "Tom" until the pre-fight talk for their 1971 fight. Frazier always called Ali Cassius Clay.

He just didn't buy into it as Terrell and Patterson didn't. They were used to calling him Clay and had too much pride to start calling him Ali when Ali demanded it on live TV.

Afterwards Frazier started using the name Cassius Clay, overtly so, to anger Ali even more.

Well I love Ali, but Frazier is justified in his anger. Ali knew what he was doing. When he was exiled he would talk trash but not in such a personal manner, then after he got what he wanted thats when the real personal attacks started.

And yes, you are right Joe did refer to him as Clay the entire time...however he did it with some venom after Ali ramped up his own attacks. Personally, I think most of that garbage was perpetuated by the NOI.

▀ringer
04-12-2009, 07:43 PM
[QUOTE]

Not sure I've heard that sory before. Could you give me some details my friend?

It was briefly touched upon in the "Thrilla in Manila" documentary. Ali briefly discusses it on film.

From what I understand, he spoke at a Klan rally about seperation of the races. And how blacks and whites should not mingle, or marry with one another.

BattlingNelson
04-12-2009, 07:46 PM
One's got to understand Ali's situation. There were cameras and newspapermen sorrounding him 24/7. He was under immense pressure to always do something funny or say something quoteable. So he was on some kind of automatic-pilot in insulting Joe. And let's face it. Ali loved the attention from the media.

The above is no excuse I'm trying to give on behalf of Ali as I also think he took the role too far.

▀ringer
04-12-2009, 07:52 PM
Because there is not a thread about them?

Ali was Human, and he played mind games with nearly every boxer he faced. Funny it takes a bias documentary for you to come out of your hole and criticize him now.

He admitted he is wrong, and wants to apologize, who, on earth, are YOU, to say otherwise?

It's time to Frazier to let go, do the right thing, and accept it.

First off, if you want a documentary that casts Ali in a beautiful, saint-like light, you can try your hand at every documentary that Ali is in. "Thrilla in Manila" is the other side of the story.

The side most people never got to hear, or even cared to hear.

Joe Frazier's side.

Secondly, it wasn't mind games. Ali genuinely hated Frazier, and you could see it in his body language and hear it when he spoke of him.

"Promotion" didn't really even exist back when Ali did what he did to Frazier. Boxing was as popular during the "golden era" as it ever was. So there was no need for Ali to "sell" anything. Everybody already wanted to see the fight anyway, and Ali was guaranteed his 2.5 Million, as Joe was his.

"Promotion" is a lame excuse that Ali's fans drag up to try to lessen the blow of Ali's malice.

As for Ali's "apology". He apologized to Joe's son, Marvis. He never once came to the man himself, looked Joe in the eyes, and said he was sorry. He always apologized through a third party.

Look, I love Frazier, but I love Ali too.

Muhammad has done multiple things outside of the ring of which I genuinely admire : Like his countless efforts in promotion of world peace, his unending work with children and charities, being a spokesman for his religion, a U.N. ambassador, etc....

But I also see the bad things he's done as well. I don't let the media taint my view of who he was.

I see Ali for who he is, not who I want him to be, or who people told me he was.

I still love him, but I'm not about to defend him for any of the things he did to Joe or Joe's family. I'll defend him on other things for as long as I have breath. But this one? No.

Benny Leonard
04-12-2009, 08:08 PM
So this is the Man Ali/Clay was named after:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassius_Marcellus_Clay_(1810%E2%80%931903)


http://www.nndb.com/people/817/000107496/

http://www.lmunet.edu/museum/collection/CMCbiography.html

MarkScott
04-12-2009, 09:00 PM
I'm a big Ali fan but I have to say he was in the wrong with the way he acted with Frazier.

http://www.amazon.com/Joe-Gans-Biography-American-Champion/dp/0786439947/ref=pd_sim_b_5/183-4088293-3598261

Abstraction
04-12-2009, 09:31 PM
Nobody is saying Ali should be shown in a good light, i prefer to say things how it is.

End of the day, what's done is done, and Ali apologized, and Frazier's own family say it themselves Joe needs to let it go.

▀ringer
04-12-2009, 09:46 PM
Nobody is saying Ali should be shown in a good light, i prefer to say things how it is.

End of the day, what's done is done, and Ali apologized, and Frazier's own family say it themselves Joe needs to let it go.

As I said once before, in a different thread : I think Joe would have a much easier time letting it go if it did not effect his family so much.

At the end of the day, Joe is a man. And he would likely learn to swallow Ali's harsh words.

But it was Joe's family that suffered the most from it (his kids being singled out and ridiculed/beaten up because people believed Frazier was an "Uncle Tom", and the death threats).

Most men have that line that you don't cross when it comes to their family. And while it was completely indirectly on Ali's part, he crossed that line.

As for Frazier letting it go : That's Joe's choice. Joe is a grown assed man, he can do whatever he wants to do. If he wants to let it go, he can. If he wants to hold onto it and be bitter, he can do that too.

But it's all too easy for you, I, and anybody else to sit here and say what Joe "should" be doing. Afterall, you and I never had to walk a mile in his shoes.

Russian Express
04-12-2009, 10:23 PM
I almost slipped into a coma reading this garbage. Some of you morons have to be spoonfed by a completely biased and sensationalising documentary to make up your own opinions of the man.

JAB5239
04-13-2009, 01:03 AM
[QUOTE=JAB5239;5058669]

It was briefly touched upon in the "Thrilla in Manila" documentary. Ali briefly discusses it on film.

From what I understand, he spoke at a Klan rally about seperation of the races. And how blacks and whites should not mingle, or marry with one another.

I had heard he preached seperation of the races for a short time, but never knew he did it at a klan rally. I'l have to check out that documentary. Thanks Bringer!

▀ringer
04-13-2009, 01:16 AM
[QUOTE=The_Bringer;5061322]

I had heard he preached seperation of the races for a short time, but never knew he did it at a klan rally. I'l have to check out that documentary. Thanks Bringer!

No problem. It's a good documentary, but it is slanted in Frazier's favor.

Ali/Frazier One Nation Divisible was slanted in Ali's favor a bit.

So my suggestion would be to watch both, back to back. And make up your own mind. :fing02:

Greatwhitehope
04-13-2009, 02:22 AM
It certainly made me lose a bit of respect for Ali, seemed pretty unneccesary as I think everyone respected them enough as athletes and people that the fight didn't need that aspect of 'promotion' or so he called it. It seemed very over the top.