The Ali-Frazier trilogy thread got me thinking about something I've pondered for awhile.....Joe Frazier was a great fighter, of that there is no doubt, but did the fact that he never avenged his losses hurt his standing in the pantheon of great heavyweights?

He was a 3-1 favorite against Big George and got obliterated and then got dismanted again in the rematch. He dropped the 2 of 3 to Ali.

Does this taint his legacy? Do you think he is rated higher than maybe he should be because of this?

Frazier surpassed expectations in Manila. I don't think that fight hurts his legacy. Even though Ali had much more trouble than expected, they both fought well in one of the greatest fights ever. That fight might actually have helped both of their legacies.

Being beaten around like a rag doll against Foreman hurts his legacy, but Frazier is still usually ranked pretty highly, around the lower end of the top 10 or just outside it among all-time HWs.

Foreman was the underdog, but still a top ranked contender. It's not as if Frazier lost to Terry Daniels or Ron Stander.

Frazier surpassed expectations in Manila. I don't think that fight hurts his legacy. Even though Ali had much more trouble than expected, they both fought well in one of the greatest fights ever. That fight might actually have helped both of their legacies.

Being beaten around like a rag doll against Foreman hurts his legacy, but Frazier is still usually ranked pretty highly, around the lower end of the top 10 or just outside it among all-time HWs.

Foreman was the underdog, but still a top ranked contender. It's not as if Frazier lost to Terry Daniels or Ron Stander.

Well I agree with what you say it's just that it seems that at times standards are applied to one fighter and disregarded for others. Thats the only reason I posed this poll.

I feel that he is a top 5-10 HW. Maybe even a Top 5 HW in some peoples opinons.
His loses to Foreman hurt his career more then the Ali fights. If he would have went the distance with Foreman, he would get a lil more credit. But he would wipe out this era of HW easily in my opinon.

He lost to the greatest Heavyweight in history in Ali and to an ATG in Foreman who was a bad style matchup for him. His legacy isn't tarnished in MY eyes: Frazier was a great fighter.

Poet

i believe the Ali fights gave him more of a legacy then making it worse.

It obviously takes something away from his legacy but what other great heavyweight only lost to other great heavyweights (Foreman and Ali)? Aside from Marciano who never lost but then again he never faced Ali or Foreman either...

now why the hell.... would you steal my avatar?

Frazier has a solid resume and his legacy will always be alive. I agree with the theory that there are very strong double standards that vary from fighter to another fighter, and others get a pass for same reasons other fighters' legacies are tarnished, or not being balanced fairly.

Frazier's biggest win of course was the first Ali fight. Did he fight the best version of Ali? No. Was that version of Ali still fresh? Yes. Prior to fighting Frazier, Ali tko'd 2 very tough men in a space of just 2 months. Do you think there are many heavyweights out there who would have agreed to use guys like Bonavena or Quarry as "warm up fights" lol. Ali had balls, and he was prepared for Joe.

2 defeats to Foreman do take away some of the glory. Especially the fashion in which he lost. But George established himself as one of the, if not the most powerfull hitter in boxing. Frazier was just outsized. Foreman represented the body of a full fledged heavyweight. Destroyer.

Other than that: Ellis 2, Quarry 2, Chuvalo, Foster, Machen, Bonavena 2, Mathis, and Doug Jones are pretty respectable names to have on your record.

The **** he pulled in Manilla, alone deserves praise. There were no losers that night.

The biggest dissapointment in his career is the fact that the 15th round of the Thrilla fight never happened. Who knows what would've happened.

The Ali-Frazier trilogy thread got me thinking about something I've pondered for awhile.....Joe Frazier was a great fighter, of that there is no doubt, but did the fact that he never avenged his losses hurt his standing in the pantheon of great heavyweights?

He was a 3-1 favorite against Big George and got obliterated and then got dismanted again in the rematch. He dropped the 2 of 3 to Ali.

Does this taint his legacy? Do you think he is rated higher than maybe he should be because of this?

I don't think the losses really hurt his legacy much, if at all. He lost to Muhammad Ali twice (arguably the greatest Heavyweight ever, and a top 10 ATG), and to Foreman twice (arguably one of the hardest punchers ever, and a top 10 ATG as well).

The one thing I think that hurts Joe's lecagy, is the relative short length of his career.

But when you factor in his arthritis problems, and the fact that he basically fought his entire career while nearly blind in one eye....I think he more than makes up for that on his own merits.

Joe Frazier, besides being one of my very favorite fighters ever, has to be considered one of the elite heavyweights as well. Like Machine said, everybody lost to somebody, except for Marciano. His losses against Big George showed what a tremendous heart and desire he has. Do you know how much of a fighter's heart he has to have gotten up 6 times in the first Foreman fight! He stuck around with Ali in their 2nd and 3rd fights, keeping them close until the Manila fight was stopped.
Beating ali in 1971 was no easy feat. How many other heavyweights active right there would have been able to do that to Ali? Joe steamrolled everybody else in his division until he went to Kingston. He had a pretty good run until then. Plus, he was an Olympic Champion.

I don't think I would put him on the Mt Rushmore of all time heavyweights (top 4) but I for certain feel he belongs in the lower half of the all time top 10 heavyweights.

One could argue that the second Foreman fight improves his legacy.

The fact that he wanted to rematch someone who had beaten him in such a brutal way speaks volumes about his heart, desire and fighting spirit (as does Manila). Also, it shows that he learned from the first fight and made adjustments to his style, which led to some success. This is notable as well because Frazier was very much past-prime at the time.

So I would agree that the initial losses hurt his legacy, but the outcome of the rematches do not IMO.

I definately think the loss to Foreman hurt his legacy, styles make fights but it really showed Frazier as being a bit one dimensional, was in trouble early and didn't have a back up plan, to be fair though I don't think many people could come up with one after being smacked by Foreman.

As for the Ali fights I don't think they hurt him, the loss in the thrilla helped it if anything, he still fought an incredible fight and showed that he may well have been the unluckiest fighter to have been around at the same time as Ali. I think he would've beaten just about any other ATG heavyweight in that night.