Sugar Ray Robinson's title defenses plus the person he faced for the belt:
Tommy Bell
Jimmy Doyle
Chuck Taylor
Bernard Docusen
Kid Gavlian

Sugar Ray Leonard's:
Wilfred Benitez
Dave Green
Roberto Duran (L)
Roberto Duran (W)
Larry Bonds
Thomas Hearns
Bruch Finch

Title reign wise it seems Leonard has the clear advantage, but overall in the welterweight resume with Robinson having wins over Zivic twice, Armstrong, Agnott, Fusari, and others it seems Robinson does.

Kind of off topic: But who was more generally impressive against Zivic in the times they fought, Burley or Robinson?

Robinson was pretty much recognized as the "uncrowned" champion since the early 1940's. The champions such as Marty Servo he had already beaten but they refused to give him a shot.

It's a bit off topic but people tend to underrate the Henry Armstrong win a little. There's a story going that Robinson "carried" the "old man" but Armstrong was the number 1 ranked welterweight challenger at the time and was coming off wins over Shapiro and Angott. Earlier he had beaten Fritzie Zivic and Lew Jenkins and lost close decisions to Beau Jack and Willie Joyce. He was good enough to stop contender Al Davis later on but he retired after being robbed of a decision.

I saw a clip of him training for the fight against Robinson and he looked good. Unfortunately the fight was never filmed atleast from what I know.

To answer your question about Burley & Robinson vs Zivic, I'd say that Robinson looked the most impressive anyone ever looked against Zivic when he stopped him in 10 rounds. Zivic, the former welterweight champion, was coming off a loss in world title bout to Red Cochrane which was generally thought to have been an unjust decision.

The reason Cochrane never gave a shot at Robinson was because no one at the time thought the fight would be competitive. Not because Robinson was worse but because Cochrane was thought to be inferior in every way to Robinson and no one cared to see the fight happen. Servo, whom Robinson twice beat, easily stopped Cochrane to win the title but never gave Robinson a shot. Robinson had to wait until Servo went up in weight, was injured against Graziano and vacated the belt.

Wow that would be insanely frustrating.

Pictures of a young Ray Robinson:

http://pro.corbis.com/images/BE056275.jpg?size=67&uid={3b913ba4-987a-494f-b1c2-08e3e5b89784}

http://www.antekprizering.com/robinson187.jpeg
Robinson vs Zivic

http://pro.corbis.com/images/BE055932.jpg?size=67&uid={30850a5d-ed00-4fce-9556-9dd81995ede2}

http://pro.corbis.com/images/BE043527.jpg?size=67&uid={f4cc9176-ea9c-489c-b24f-9290ec50e78c}
Ray Robinson beats Tommy Bell to win the vacant world welterweight title

http://pro.corbis.com/images/U751884ACME.jpg?size=67&uid={c04d90f5-7b0c-4466-ba43-e6cf89db6a2d}

http://pro.corbis.com/images/BE056076.jpg?size=67&uid={705040ef-1c6d-4291-8af1-360fb911d588}

Robinson vs LaMotta

http://www.antekprizering.com/robinson568.jpeg

http://pro.corbis.com/images/BE055970.jpg?size=67&uid={1a702b6d-baa5-4ecf-9133-64079849eb66}

Robinson vs Gavilan

SRR was an offensive powerhouse... one punch KO power, elegant but at the same time powerful combinations and was blessed with a steel chin.

But his defense really was very average...

I wonder what happens if fighters like Hearns or Julian Jackson landed their right hands flush on him...

SRR was an offensive powerhouse... one punch KO power, elegant but at the same time powerful combinations and was blessed with a steel chin.

But his defense really was very average...

I wonder what happens if fighters like Hearns or Julian Jackson landed their right hands flush on him...

Chances are they probably won't. Even if they did they'd be landing on one of the most dependable chins of all times.

McCallum and McClellan took it from Jackson so I don't see why Robinson couldn't. Of course you can't let him land too many of his bombs but that's no problem for Robinson considering Jackson's chin.

Chances are they probably won't. Even if they did they'd be landing on one of the most dependable chin's of all times.

McCallum and McClellan took it from Jackson so I don't see why Robinson couldn't. Of course you can't let him land too many of his bombs but that's no problem for Robinson considering Jackson's chin.

Because I remember Roberto Duran being caught flush by Hearns in their only fight. And Duran has had a dependable chin also.

Because I remember Roberto Duran being caught flush by Hearns in their only fight. And Duran has had a dependable chin also.

He was also a 33 year old former lightweight.

Hearns' power is no joke but Duran was made for him.

He was also a 33 year old former lightweight.

Hearns' power is no joke but Duran was made for him.

... An aberration maybe? Because Duran at age 37 withstood the power bombs of Hearns' conqueror Barkley... I remember the 8th round of their fight...

Anyway of course I think SRR has had the better reign at WW.... He never lost to someone coming up from lightweight. And he was better in giving rematches than SRL... Can you imagine SRL having a series with Hagler, Hearns and Duran like SRR did with Basillo, Fulmer et. al?

He never gave Hearns an immediate rematch and made sure Duran was really diminished when he fought him the second time....

Chances are they probably won't. Even if they did they'd be landing on one of the most dependable chins of all times.

McCallum and McClellan took it from Jackson so I don't see why Robinson couldn't. Of course you can't let him land too many of his bombs but that's no problem for Robinson considering Jackson's chin.

Jackson wouldn't but Hearns most definitely could. He made warm butter out of Durans chin, tagging Robinson would not be out of the question.

I agree though about Jackson, possibly the hardest hitter ever in his weight class, but unlikely that he'd land flush enough with the way Robinson moved.

... An aberration maybe? Because Duran at age 37 withstood the power bombs of Hearns' conqueror Barkley... I remember the 8th round of their fight...

Anyway of course I think SRR has had the better reign at WW.... He never lost to someone coming up from lightweight. And he was better in giving rematches than SRL...

He never gave Hearns an immediate rematch and made sure Duran was really diminished when he fought him the second time....

Duran was special against Barkley. Barkley himself put it best into words when he said: ''It was his heart. It just wouldn't go," when asked why he couldn't knock Duran out.

Barkley however was not a huge puncher (although a good one), it's just that Hearns was somewhat suspectible at 160.

Sugar Ray Robinson's title defenses plus the person he faced for the belt:
Tommy Bell
Jimmy Doyle
Chuck Taylor
Bernard Docusen
Kid Gavlian



** Robby also took a lopsided decision over Fusari in defense of his welt title, making him 6-0 in title matches over 4 yrs, exclusive Robby's claim to a share of 3 middleweight title wins.

More impressive than Leonards 7-1 title record over 3 yrs. Leonard only has 2 unified wins. Add in that Robby was 47-0-1 from his first welt title until the eve of Lamotta middle title challenge compared to Leonards overall 7-1 record, Robby showed more excellence in that 4 yr window than Ray showed in his entire 36-3 career. Robby was also 3-0 against two HOFers compared to Leonard's 3-1 against 3 HOFers.

Those were the only prime HOFers that Leonard faced, whereas Robby had almost two dozen more prime HOF fights.

Don't understand the comparison between the two other than the same weight, size, build, and general level of skills. There is no welt in the class of Robby, not even close. Maybe some could give him a tussle or even cause an upset, but only just maybe.

No matter, Robby shuts 'em out with his career.

** Robby also took a lopsided decision over Fusari in defense of his welt title, making him 6-0 in title matches over 4 yrs, exclusive Robby's claim to a share of 3 middleweight title wins.

More impressive than Leonards 7-1 title record over 3 yrs. Leonard only has 2 unified wins. Add in that Robby was 47-0-1 from his first welt title until the eve of Lamotta middle title challenge compared to Leonards overall 7-1 record, Robby showed more excellence in that 4 yr window than Ray showed in his entire 36-3 career. Robby was also 3-0 against two HOFers compared to Leonard's 3-1 against 3 HOFers.

Those were the only prime HOFers that Leonard faced, whereas Robby had almost two dozen more prime HOF fights.

Don't understand the comparison between the two other than the same weight, size, build, and general level of skills. There is no welt in the class of Robby, not even close. Maybe some could give him a tussle or even cause an upset, but only just maybe.

No matter, Robby shuts 'em out with his career.

But are Benitez, Hearns, and Duran worse then Bell, Fusari, and Gavlian? Maybe not Gavilan, but the other two?

But are Benitez, Hearns, and Duran worse then Bell, Fusari, and Gavlian? Maybe not Gavilan, but the other two?

** I'd imagine Robby's 48 fights in that 4 yr period would put a pretty fair country whippin' on Leonard's 8 fights with plenty of room for Robby to ease up and with some good rounds down at the bar.

** I'd imagine Robby's 48 fights in that 4 yr period would put a pretty fair country whippin' on Leonard's 8 fights with plenty of room for Robby to ease up and with some good rounds down at the bar.

It's not about who would win. It's about who had the better reign and also resume. I think it's obvious Robinson has a better resume at WW, but as far as who he beat for the title (Tommy Bell) and when he defended the title are those fighters better then the fighters Leonard beat (Hearns, Duran, and Benitez)?

I'd say that Robinson had a better title reign because his lasted longer. Leonard really had two title reigns, first winning the title from Benitez and losing it to Duran, then regaining it from Duran and defending against Hearns.

If you consider those two title reigns as one then I'd say that Leonard's was better than Robinson's.

If you consider Robinson as the champion from the time he was recognized as the "uncrowned" welterweight champion then his reign was better, if that makes any sense.

Because I remember Roberto Duran being caught flush by Hearns in their only fight. And Duran has had a dependable chin also.

A bit different facing an old, natural LW that was only 5'6" with a 66" reach, over a big natural WW that was 5'11" and had a long reach also. I'm not sure of the specifics of his reach.

Duran had slowed enough by that stage that his famous defense was all but gone and against a guy that had a 12" reach advantage and stood at 6'1", it was understandable why that happened. He probably would have had only a few inches on Robinson. Leonard's reach was 74, only four inches off Hearns and Leonard was an inch shorter than Robinson. Leonard was very big for a WW, so it goes to show that Robinson would not fare too bad at all.

On Duran and Hearns though, it's kind of like if Pac and Oscar's roles were reversed and it was Oscar that was still in his prime years at WW (in his mid twenties) and Pac was as old as Oscar is now and moving up in weight. How do you think that would have gone then? They are also still a lot closer in size than Duran and Hearns. That difference was astronomical and really made to order for Hearns to have a blistering night with a blistering right.

Since Leonard beat 3 ATGs, have to give it to him. Although I think Robinson would have beaten Leonard.