I wrote this up and posted it in NSB, but I also want some....well, more informed answers than I'll be getting there. I look forward to the responses.

Ask any boxing fan about Lennox Lewis' ATG status and you'll generally get the same answer : Most people have him on their top 10 Heavyweight list of the greatest to ever do it.

Ask that same boxing fan about the Klitschko brothers' reign and the result will be.....Well, not exactly the same.

Throughout his career Lewis was generally looked upon with disdain by most in the boxing public : He fought once a year, he dominated his division, but yet people still defined that era as "post Tyson". Not to mention embarassing knockout losses to 2 contenders of his era : Hasim Rahman and Oliver McCall. Lewis would go on to avenge both of those losses by knockout. But the damage to his reputation was already done.

In the years since Lennox has retired, a begrudging amount of respect has been bestowed upon the former Heavyweight kingpin : Most people now recognize his talents, and give full credit to his accomplishments.

Now look at the Klitschko brothers Era : They took the reigns after Lewis' retirement and have pretty much dominated it ever since. Vitali was looked upon as the stronger of the two for a while, but a 4 year retirement and numerous failed comebacks (thanks to repeated injury) thrust his brother Wladimir into the spotlight.

Wlad is a fighter very similar to Lewis : He's technical in his approach, not one for taking unnecessary risks in the ring, and he's pretty much dominated every opponet put infront of him. To top it off, he also has 2 embarassing knockout losses to contenders of his era Lamon Brewster and Corrie Sanders on his record. Unlike Lewis, Wladimir avenged only one of those losses, scoring a 6 round RTD over Lamon Brewster.

When casual boxing fans think of the Heavyweight division now, they generally say it's "gone south". Or that it's not nearly as good as eras past.

But was Lennox Lewis' era really that spectactular by comparison? What's the difference between Corrie Sanders and Oliver McCall? Is there one?

When it comes to the issue of legacy, most people consider Lewis to be the greatest of his era, and they list him as an "All Time Great" Heavyweight Champion. Fans and experts alike

When it comes time for Wladimir and Vitali to step aside, they can rest assured that they will go down as the greatest Heavyweights of their era.

But when it comes to "All Time Great" status, one must ask oneself: Would Lennox Lewis get the same amount of respect he gets today, if during his era, there were TWO Lennox Lewis' who fought in a similar style, dominated their opposition, but refused to face one another?

You know, you've been posting in the wrong forum: You belong over here in Boxing History.

The biggest difference between the two eras is that Lennox was part of the 90s which was one of the strongest eras ever for Heavyweights. The Klitschko's are stuck in the 2000's: One of the weakest eras ever for Heavyweights.

Vitali will be hurt from missing multiple years off his prime because of injuries. Wlad, well, lets just say losses to the likes of Ross Purrity call into question his abilities: In all likelihood Wlad doesn't make it anywhere near the top in a strong division or win a belt even in a mediocre division. Vitali is certainly the better of the two fighters although I think he clearly falls short of ATG status. That being said he is clearly a near-great. Lennox, by comparison, is on the border between ATG and near-great. You have legitimate arguments for either and I go back and forth on it. He is clearly the best Heavyweight post Evander Holyfield's prime and if he had a better chin I would say he'd be considered the best Heavyweight since Larry Holmes.

Poet

You know, you've been posting in the wrong forum: You belong over here in Boxing History.

The biggest difference between the two eras is that Lennox was part of the 90s which was one of the strongest eras ever for Heavyweights. The Klitschko's are stuck in the 2000's: One of the weakest eras EVER for Heavyweights.

Vitali will be hurt from missing multiple years off his prime because of injuries. Wlad, well, lets just say losses to the likes of Ross Purrity call into question his abilities: In all likelihood Wlad doesn't make it anywhere near the top in a strong division or win a belt even in a mediocre division. Vitali is certainly the better of the two fighters although I think he clearly falls short of ATG status. That being said he is clearly a near-great. Lennox, by comparison, is on the border between ATG and near-great. You have legitimate arguments for either and I go back and forth on it. He is clearly the best Heavyweight post Evander Holyfield's prime and if he had a better chin I would say he'd be considered the best Heavyweight since Larry Holmes.

Poet

First off, I really appreciate the compliment.

I'm in agreement with your assessment of both Wlad and Vitali's standings. The near 4 year layoff does quite a bit to hamper Vitali's status, and keeps him relegated to "near-great" status. Wlad on the other hand, could only hope to achieve such status.

Lewis I define as an "All Time Great". He just breaks my list at #10, with Holyfield taking place above him at #9.

I think Lewis would be the subject of a great deal more criticism if the scenario I suggested at the end of my post had played out. Which is why the Klitschko's draw such criticism now, coupled of course, with a weakened division.

But when it comes to "All Time Great" status, one must ask oneself: Would Lennox Lewis get the same amount of respect he gets today, if during his era, there were TWO Lennox Lewis' who fought in a similar style, dominated their opposition, but refused to face one another?


No. But nobody demands the K bros fight cuz they know damn well it won't happen. At this point, most people pretty much think of them as 1 and the same. The HW division had more names when LL was the man, and he beat em all. The fights overall during his run were more excitin than they are at HW right now. And the K bros get a pass on not fightin each other cuz they're brothers. If they each were the same fighters they are now by size and style but weren't related, cats would wanna see em scrap. If LL had a mirror image of himself around during his run and didn't fight him, of course he wouldn't get as much respect.

No. But nobody demands the K bros fight cuz they know damn well it won't happen. At this point, most people pretty much think of them as 1 and the same. The HW division had more names when LL was the man, and he beat em all. The fights overall during his run were more excitin than they are at HW right now. And the K bros get a pass on not fightin each other cuz they're brothers. If they each were the same fighters they are now by size and style but weren't related, cats would wanna see em scrap. If LL had a mirror image of himself around during his run and didn't fight him, of course he wouldn't get as much respect.

Appreciate the input, and I agree on pretty much everything here. Especially the last sentence.

One guy in NSB thinks I'm insane already I guess, he says he has no idea what I'm talking about when I mentioned having 2 Lennox Lewis'. :lol1:

Another guy just said it was the Haye era.....which is as hilarious as it is frightening.

First off, I really appreciate the compliment.

I'm in agreement with your assessment of both Wlad and Vitali's standings. The near 4 year layoff does quite a bit to hamper Vitali's status, and keeps him relegated to "near-great" status. Wlad on the other hand, could only hope to achieve such status.

Lewis I define as an "All Time Great". He just breaks my list at #10, with Holyfield taking place above him at #9.

I think Lewis would be the subject of a great deal more criticism if the scenario I suggested at the end of my post had played out. Which is why the Klitschko's draw such criticism now, coupled of course, with a weakened division.

Of course, I remember when people DID rip Lennox (unfairly in my estimation). Much of it stemmed from the stereotype of the "horizontal" British Heavyweight. People in the States often compared him with Frank Bruno (and no, it wasn't a compliment). To me that was unfair to both fighters as I've always thought Bruno was a pretty good fighter not to mention being one of the hardest punchers in division history.

Interesting thing is my criticism of Lennox's chin has never been based on his two KO losses. The KO punch from Rahman would have dropped all but the best chins and I thought Lennox had a pretty good case for it being a premature stoppage against McCall. My criticisms of his chin come from the number of times I saw Lennox wobbled in OTHER fights by less than impressive punches. I also think he wasted half of his prime just relying on his physical gifts before finally hiring Manny Steward to teach him how to fight.

Poet

Of course, I remember when people DID rip Lennox (unfairly in my estimation). Much of it stemmed from the stereotype of the "horizontal" British Heavyweight. People in the States often compared him with Frank Bruno (and no, it wasn't a compliment). To me that was unfair to both fighters as I've always thought Bruno was a pretty good fighter not to mention being one of the hardest punchers in division history.

Interesting thing is my criticism of Lennox's chin has never been based on his two KO losses. The KO punch from Rahman would have dropped all but the best chins and I thought Lennox had a pretty good case for it being a premature stoppage against McCall. My criticisms of his chin come from the number of times I saw Lennox wobbled in OTHER fights by less than impressive punches. I also think he wasted half of his prime just relying on his physical gifts before finally hiring Manny Steward to teach him how to fight.

Poet

I can see why you raise both points on Lewis' chin and wasting some of his prime.

As great as he was (or near-great, whatever stance you take), he likely could've been even better had he gotten with Emmanuel earlier than he opted to.

I can see why you raise both points on Lewis' chin and wasting some of his prime.

As great as he was (or near-great, whatever stance you take), he likely could've been even better had he gotten with Emmanuel earlier than he opted to.

I remember watching the Lewis - Ruddock fight live on HBO. That was a young, pre-Steward Lewis. I remember thinking while watching it that Lennox's technique was all wrong and he held his right way to open. He didn't pay for it in that particular fight but I think the chickens came home to roost against McCall. In a sense, there WERE two Lennox Lewises: Pre and post Manny Steward.

Poet

I can see why you raise both points on Lewis' chin and wasting some of his prime.

As great as he was (or near-great, whatever stance you take), he likely could've been even better had he gotten with Emmanuel earlier than he opted to.

BTW, THIS kind of discussion is what makes this forum the best on Boxing Scene. THIS is the elite forum for boxing. The occasional flame-out is just incidental diversions. Guys like Jab, Them Apples, Wmute, Hurricane, Manchine, Battling Nelson, and Thunder Lips all post here regularly (please forgive me for any elite posters I've forgotten to mention!).

Poet

I remember watching the Lewis - Ruddock fight live on HBO. That was a young, pre-Steward Lewis. I remember thinking while watching it that Lennox's technique was all wrong and he held his right way to open. He didn't pay for it in that particular fight but I think the chickens came home to roost against McCall. In a sense, there WERE two Lennox Lewises: Pre and post Manny Steward.

Poet

So then, what if there were.....THREE Lennox Lewis'? :lol1:

My favorite Lennox moment is without a doubt the Rahman revenge. The knockout he delivered to Hasim that night was just flat out brutal. I remember hearing those 2 shots land live on TV and I was surprised Rahman's head didn't come off.

One of my favorite Heavyweight knockouts of all time.

I remember watching the Lewis - Ruddock fight live on HBO. That was a young, pre-Steward Lewis. I remember thinking while watching it that Lennox's technique was all wrong and he held his right way to open. He didn't pay for it in that particular fight but I think the chickens came home to roost against McCall. In a sense, there WERE two Lennox Lewises: Pre and post Manny Steward.

Poet

If you don't mind me asking you what fight showed the very best version Lennox Lewis?

So then, what if there were.....THREE Lennox Lewis'? :lol1:

My favorite Lennox moment is without a doubt the Rahman revenge. The knockout he delivered to Hasim that night was just flat out brutal. I remember hearing those 2 shots land live on TV and I was surprised Rahman's head didn't come off.

One of my favorite Heavyweight knockouts of all time.

That KO was about as beautiful as one could ask for! He distracted him with a left hook then dropped the right in unseen. Picture perfect!

Poet

If you don't mind me asking you what fight showed the very best version Lennox Lewis?

Honestly I think the second Rahman fight was the one contest where he showed the total package. Before that he was content to just show enough to get the job done and no more so we only got to see parts of the picture. Against Rahman Lennox didn't just want to win he wanted to destroy.

Poet

That KO was about as beautiful as one could ask for! He distracted him with a left hook then dropped the right in unseen. Picture perfect!

Poet

Absolutely, and certainly this picture is worth a thousand words.

http://www.boxingcraze.com/imagesMisc/Hasim%20Rahman.jpg

Honestly I think the second Rahman fight was the one contest where he showed the total package. Before that he was content to just show enough to get the job done and no more so we only got to see parts of the picture. Against Rahman Lennox didn't just want to win he wanted to destroy.

Poet

It's a shame Lennox never really had that killer instinct more often in his career.

You could argue he wanted to destroy Tyson, by the way he punished him in that fight. But it wasn't that same level of ferocity. Or perhaps Mike just took it much better than Hasim did. I know he took some pretty nasty shots from Lennox in that one.

Ironically, that fight is one of the fights that made me respect Tyson more as a fighter. He showed tremendous heart in taking that beating.

Ironically, that fight is one of the fights that made me respect Tyson more as a fighter. He showed tremendous heart in taking that beating.

Yeah, I agree. Even in the Douglas and Holyfield fights Tyson took his beatings like a man. Whatever one thinks of Tyson I think you have to respect him for that at least.

Poet

Yeah, I agree. Even in the Douglas and Holyfield fights Tyson took his beatings like a man. Whatever one thinks of Tyson I think you have to respect him for that at least.

Poet

Completely agree.

For me, Tyson falls into that "near-great" category, though somewhere in the upper echelon. He never gave up in there until he was severely past any point in his career where he could've been competitive.

I also don't believe he gets as much credit for being the smart person he really is. Most people know him as the insane sound byte producing king, and tabloid headline fodder. But on the whole, from all I've seen and read, he has one of the most profound minds in the boxing game.

Completely agree.

For me, Tyson falls into that "near-great" category, though somewhere in the upper echelon. He never gave up in there until he was severely past any point in his career where he could've been competitive.

I also don't believe he gets as much credit for being the smart person he really is. Most people know him as the insane sound byte producing king, and tabloid headline fodder. But on the whole, from all I've seen and read, he has one of the most profound minds in the boxing game.

I've said many times that Tyson was the one fighter I would like to sit down with a cup of coffee and analyse old fight films. No other fighter in recent memory has had the kind of respect and appreciation for the old time greats as Tyson. He is also a first-rate analyst: Is saw him sit in with the broadcast team during a Frank Bruno fight and he was terrific. He was better then the color guy the network was using. It was pretty clear that few could breakdown a fight better than Mike.

Poet

That's interesting because Mike Tyson commentated on Bernard Hopkins-Segundo Mercado 2 and I think it's one of the worst commentary jobs I've ever heard.

That's interesting because Mike Tyson commentated on Bernard Hopkins-Segundo Mercado 2 and I think it's one of the worst commentary jobs I've ever heard.

I don't know what was up with him that night, either he just wasn't "on" or he simply didn't care.

Mike normally does great blow by blow commentary.

The problem with the Wlad and Vitali era is the horrible politics and injuries that prevent the more interesting match ups from being made. Wlad couldn't buy a unification fight, we had Oleg the eternal mandatory that is still causing trouble, and Valuev is sitting on a title and refusing to move. Haye talks and talks.... Byrd broke down. Chageav broke down. Brewster broke down. Brock broke down. Vitali broke down but came back and here we are.


Though flawed, Povetkin and Arreola are exciting high workrate fighters that will hopefully make passionate contenders for the KO brothers at the very least; assuming they don't eat themselves into oblivion like fellow sluggers Samuel Peter and Kirk Johnson.


http://www.champboxingdvd.com/sitebuilder/images/Arreola-Walker-379x284.jpg

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2008/0126/box_g_povetkin_chambers_580.jpg

I wrote this up and posted it in NSB, but I also want some....well, more informed answers than I'll be getting there. I look forward to the responses.

***

But when it comes to "All Time Great" status, one must ask oneself: Would Lennox Lewis get the same amount of respect he gets today, if during his era, there were TWO Lennox Lewis' who fought in a similar style, dominated their opposition, but refused to face one another?

There are many reasons that Klitschkos aren`t respected as much as LL yet:

1 Except many guys equal in their level to Wladimir`s opposition, he have also fought two monsters in Tyson and Holyfield! And that gives him lots of credit, although Tyson was completely past his prime...

2 The inunderstandable losses of Wladimir to Purity, Sanders and Brewster... Vitali`s retirement on the stool in Byrd fight...

3 Lots of Eastern-European boxers, and few Western guys right now... Truly speaking, nobody gives a f*ck about them...

4 Klitschko`s era hasn`t ended yet, so they will probably get criticized until they both retire...

5 Neither of them defeated a lineal champion, so they will hardly be recognized as the competent champions soon...

6 They can`t unify the division (having four hands instead of two should make that easier)

7 They are fighting in the time, when some boxing sanctioning bodies (we won`t point at WBA...) suffer from some kind of very acute marasmus... As on May 30 we will see how Nikolai Valuev will defend his WBA heavyweight title and Ruslan Chagaev will defend his WBA heavyweight title... As there is such a mess, Klitshcko`s just can`t get credit as the true Champions of their era, because they are actually not the only champions out there...

8 Many think that one should face real punchers to get some respect. And while Lewis defeated Tua, Briggs and Tyson, Wladimir was absurdly defeated by Sanders...

9 Many find the Klitshko`s styles boring and unentertaining...

I think if at least one Klitshcko wants to get an ATG status, that should be Wladimir. He should wait until his brother retires, unify the division and be a lineal champion until he is at least 36-37.. In this case he might get a universally recognized ATG status...

P.S. IMO, those who think that Vitali is a better boxer or a fighter of two, and could defeat Wladimir, because he is an older brother or has a "frowner" frown, are completely wrong.

oh jeez. holyfield couldnt beat either brother and neither could tyson.

or any other fighter that lewis fought.

many buy into the hype of those fights.

also, lewis i find more boring than either brother. especially vitali who attacks almost constantly.

if anyone disses the klitschkos, u have ti diss lewis too. and a lineal title doesnt mean ****. a boxer is a boxer. greatness is only determined by numbers by nerds who dont fight.

people here who do box usually have a more relaxed and open idea when it comes to ranking boxers and comparing them.

P.S. IMO, those who think that Vitali is a better boxer or a fighter of two, and could defeat Wladimir, because he is an older brother or has a "frowner" frown, are completely wrong.

Actually people think Vitali would beat Wlad is because he takes a better punch, is tougher, generates more offense, and doesn't gas out as fast. This is the pros, not the amatuers: Chin and toughness count for a lot more than Wlad's slicker technique.


Poet

Actually people think Vitali would beat Wlad is because he takes a better punch, is tougher, generates more offense, and doesn't gas out as fast. This is the pros, not the amatuers: Chin and toughness count for a lot more than Wlad's slicker technique.


Poet

Even here we have different points of view:)

IMO, the only thing in which Vitali is better is his toughness. He really has a very good chin and can take a punch...

But, he is slower.

Wladimir hits harder.

Vitali is actually gasing out quicker. He does right now and he did when was younger...

I wouldn`t say that Vitali is very "offensive". His workrate is pretty small, only his power and accuracy makes it really effective...

Wladimir can be both very calm and offensive. Just compare the fights with Rahman and Ibragimov with the Thompson fight... In the last one he was attacking for the whole eleve rounds...

Even here we have different points of view:)

IMO, the only thing in which Vitali is better is his toughness. He really has a very good chin and can take a punch...

But, he is slower.

Wladimir hits harder.

Vitali is actually gasing out quicker. He does right now and he did when was younger...

I wouldn`t say that Vitali is very "offensive". His workrate is pretty small, only his power and accuracy makes it really effective...

Wladimir can be both very calm and offensive. Just compare the fights with Rahman and Ibragimov with the Thompson fight... In the last one he was attacking for the whole eleve rounds...

Hmmm. I don't seem to recall Vitali gassing out against Brewster.....or losing ANY fight because he gassed out as Wlad has. Wladimir is superior ONLY in an amatuer fight. Neither fighters work rate is anything to speak of BUT Vitali is more inclined to use power punches than Wlad is which counts for more in the pros. As for Wlad being the harder puncher.....I take it you've been clocked by both and can attest to this? The truth is Euros in general have an amatuer mentality when it comes to boxing and haven't figured out yet that the pros are an entirely different game.

Poet

oh jeez. holyfield couldnt beat either brother and neither could tyson.

or any other fighter that lewis fought.

many buy into the hype of those fights.

also, lewis i find more boring than either brother. especially vitali who attacks almost constantly.

if anyone disses the klitschkos, u have ti diss lewis too. and a lineal title doesnt mean ****. a boxer is a boxer. greatness is only determined by numbers by nerds who dont fight.

people here who do box usually have a more relaxed and open idea when it comes to ranking boxers and comparing them.

are you sirius?

lennox resume: tua, holyfield, tyson, morrison, mercer, ruddock, bruno, golota, and VITALI.

LL ****s all over the Kbros, and i belive a prime tyson could beat them, maybe even mercer or tua.

are you sirius?

lennox resume: tua, holyfield, tyson, morrison, mercer, ruddock, bruno, golota, and VITALI.

LL ****s all over the Kbros, and i belive a prime tyson could beat them, maybe even mercer or tua.

Well, depends on what shape Tua or Mercer showed up in. Unfortunately neither had a good track record for showing up for fights in-shape. Other than that, yeah: Prime Lewis, Holyfield, or Tyson sparks the Klitschkos.

Poet

If you take a look at the guys on Lewis resume, I think that if Wlad and Vitali fought all those guys they would have horrible records, maybe Vitali would be ok, but Wlad? getting in with guys like Morrison, Tua, Bruno,prime rahman. etc all of whom could spark him with one punch.

Actually people think Vitali would beat Wlad is because he takes a better punch, is tougher, generates more offense, and doesn't gas out as fast. This is the pros, not the amatuers: Chin and toughness count for a lot more than Wlad's slicker technique.


Poet
Isn't this a little like 2 bald men arguing over a comb or which of the spice girls was the better singer?

Hmmm. I don't seem to recall Vitali gassing out against Brewster.....or losing ANY fight because he gassed out as Wlad has. Wladimir is superior ONLY in an amatuer fight. Neither fighters work rate is anything to speak of BUT Vitali is more inclined to use power punches than Wlad is which counts for more in the pros. As for Wlad being the harder puncher.....I take it you've been clocked by both and can attest to this? The truth is Euros in general have an amatuer mentality when it comes to boxing and haven't figured out yet that the pros are an entirely different game.

Poet

Well i think one should be a completely blind hater to think that Wlad gased out in that fight or that it was Brewster who defeated him:)
There were talks about the poisoning... I`m not the one who believes in the "conspiracy theories" :) but in the fights where King is involved anything can happen...
There were talks that Wladimir`s dietitians made mistake and that caused his sugar level rise enormously during the fight... I`m not a medic, but if that is possible i think it can be very true reason...
But the one thing is clear to me - it was not Brewster, who landed two jabs and two lets hooks in that round, who lead Wlad to that state...
Also Wladimir did have experience of having long-distant bouts so i don`t see why should he gased out in just five rounds of that fight...
Take also to consideration that on the early stage of his career he was often brawling not boxing, and luring into numerous exchanges. That, i suppose, needed more endurance from him...
Whereas Vitali looks tired often in the middle rounds. His mouth is wide open, he keeps his hands low (i now that is his stance, but in fights with Hoffman and Lewis he was keeping them high for the first few rounds) and slows down. His workrate decreases much, and the only case it rises up is if he gets angry (as in the fight with Gomez, when he was deducted a point unfairly)...

That is what i think :)

Lewis era was much better but the problem is he never actualy faced the top fighters when they were in there prime, Bowe Holyfield and Tyson where 10x better than any heavyweight around today outside the klits but Lewis never faced them when they were at there best.

Interesting thing is my criticism of Lennox's chin has never been based on his two KO losses. The KO punch from Rahman would have dropped all but the best chins and I thought Lennox had a pretty good case for it being a premature stoppage against McCall. My criticisms of his chin come from the number of times I saw Lennox wobbled in OTHER fights by less than impressive punches.

True. But then he also took some monstrous shots and stood up against Vitali, Bruno and even Grant.

Lewis era was much better but the problem is he never actualy faced the top fighters when they were in there prime, Bowe Holyfield and Tyson where 10x better than any heavyweight around today outside the klits but Lewis never faced them when they were at there best.

Holyfield is still fighting today at the top. That tells you how long ago it was when Lewis fought him. lewis fought a very strong, almost physical prime Holyfield who at the time had beaten the likes of Tyson twice and Moorer. Lewis fought am ATG period. I agree with the Tyson thing though. But Bowe didnt want none of the Lennox. Then we have a ****load of other great wins for Lewis. Lewis is simply a top 3 ATG heavyweight. Marciano, Ali and Lennox. Thats the best you'll ever see.

Holyfield is still fighting today at the top.

** UnHoly is 0-4-1 in title bouts this decade. Last contender he beat was when he headbutted his way to a technical decision over Rahman 7 long years ago.

Yeah, I guess you could say he's fighting at the top of the trash heap.

Holyfield is still fighting today at the top. That tells you how long ago it was when Lewis fought him. lewis fought a very strong, almost physical prime Holyfield who at the time had beaten the likes of Tyson twice and Moorer. Lewis fought am ATG period. I agree with the Tyson thing though. But Bowe didnt want none of the Lennox. Then we have a ****load of other great wins for Lewis. Lewis is simply a top 3 ATG heavyweight. Marciano, Ali and Lennox. Thats the best you'll ever see.

Holyfield was considered shot after the last Bowe fight but he came up with a great performance against Tyson and Moorer but he was not as good as he was back in the late 80's and early 90's his combinations in those days were brilliant, by 99 he was past his best although still a good fighter compare the 2nd Bowe fight with the first Lewis fight and imo there is a big difference. As for Bowe I agree that he didn’t want to fight Lewis when he had the title but I have seen a Frank Maloney interview where he said they had signed a contract to fight Bowe if Lewis beat McCall which he didn’t. Lewis has better wins than Wlad not saying he didn’t.

I remember watching the Lewis - Ruddock fight live on HBO. That was a young, pre-Steward Lewis. I remember thinking while watching it that Lennox's technique was all wrong and he held his right way to open. He didn't pay for it in that particular fight but I think the chickens came home to roost against McCall. In a sense, there WERE two Lennox Lewises: Pre and post Manny Steward.

Poet


I was there LIVE for the fight and expected Ruddock to knock him out.

Your right when you say there were two Lennox Lewises. The pre Manny Steward one was very clumsy and awkward and not technically brilliant.

But after he got with Steward he improved in nearly every aspect except one thing. I think they bulked him up to much and he lost his speed and probably a bit of his stamina with all that extra weight.


When you go back and watch the Ruddock fight look past all the deficiences and just watch the speed and the power and the accuracy especially in the final combination that ended the fight. That was a combination of Ali and Tyson rolled into one.

Had he been trained by Steward then and not bulked up so much I think you would have had pretty much the perfect heavyweight.

Wlad needs to get in quantity what he can't get in quality. He's got ten total alphabet defenses as of now, and a total of four belts collected. If he defends ten more times, which is perfectly reasonable to speculate about, he'll have accomplished as much at HW as Hopkins or Calzaghe at MW and SMW. That would put him in the top six or seven by anyone's reckoning.

** UnHoly is 0-4-1 in title bouts this decade. Last contender he beat was when he headbutted his way to a technical decision over Rahman 7 long years ago.

Yeah, I guess you could say he's fighting at the top of the trash heap.

title bouts this decade? How about you look at the past 3 years where he gave Sultan a run for his money and was robbed against No Value Ev in his last fight.
So it doesn't matter. And against Rahman it was a close fight. He would have won against that beached whale of a ****kicking fighter.

Holyfield was considered shot after the last Bowe fight but he came up with a great performance against Tyson and Moorer but he was not as good as he was back in the late 80's and early 90's his combinations in those days were brilliant, by 99 he was past his best although still a good fighter compare the 2nd Bowe fight with the first Lewis fight and imo there is a big difference. As for Bowe I agree that he didn’t want to fight Lewis when he had the title but I have seen a Frank Maloney interview where he said they had signed a contract to fight Bowe if Lewis beat McCall which he didn’t. Lewis has better wins than Wlad not saying he didn’t.

Bowe took something out of Evander, which was a bit of his reflexes and maybe a bit of his speed, as well as a tiny bit of his endurance. That is in no way "SHOT". Shot is Tyson against Lewis, Ali vs Holmes etc.

By 99 Evander had come off a 5 victory streak after the last Bowe fight including 2 over Tyson and one over Moorer(needless to say, after Holyfield was done with these men they were never at the top again.)
I dare to say this was Holyfield at his best because of his experience at this point.

So Lewis definitely deserves a lot of credit mate.

I was there LIVE for the fight and expected Ruddock to knock him out.

Your right when you say there were two Lennox Lewises. The pre Manny Steward one was very clumsy and awkward and not technically brilliant.

But after he got with Steward he improved in nearly every aspect except one thing. I think they bulked him up to much and he lost his speed and probably a bit of his stamina with all that extra weight.


When you go back and watch the Ruddock fight look past all the deficiences and just watch the speed and the power and the accuracy especially in the final combination that ended the fight. That was a combination of Ali and Tyson rolled into one.

Had he been trained by Steward then and not bulked up so much I think you would have had pretty much the perfect heavyweight.

Lewis also peaked his career when he was already at an advanced age so he could have reigned much longer if he went to the pros earlier.

oh jeez. holyfield couldnt beat either brother and neither could tyson.

or any other fighter that lewis fought.

many buy into the hype of those fights.

also, lewis i find more boring than either brother. especially vitali who attacks almost constantly.

if anyone disses the klitschkos, u have ti diss lewis too. and a lineal title doesnt mean ****. a boxer is a boxer. greatness is only determined by numbers by nerds who dont fight.

people here who do box usually have a more relaxed and open idea when it comes to ranking boxers and comparing them.

prime holyfield (1991 or 1992) would beat both klitschkos

tyson-wlad could be close if wlad survived tysons early onslaught and recovered to control the fight with his jab, but my guess is he doesnt and tyson takes the knockout

i do think vitali probably beats tyson though, i think his chin would survive the onslaught and he would wear mike down and stop him late

uhh yeah it does!

arent you a martial artist? :lol1:

** UnHoly is 0-4-1 in title bouts this decade. Last contender he beat was when he headbutted his way to a technical decision over Rahman 7 long years ago.

Yeah, I guess you could say he's fighting at the top of the trash heap.

umm i wonder why hes 0-4-1 in title bouts this decade LRR?

it wouldnt have anything to do with the fact hes in his forties and should have retired ten years ago would it?

and plus he got robbed vs valuev, utter bull****

Holyfield was considered shot after the last Bowe fight but he came up with a great performance against Tyson and Moorer but he was not as good as he was back in the late 80's and early 90's his combinations in those days were brilliant, by 99 he was past his best although still a good fighter compare the 2nd Bowe fight with the first Lewis fight and imo there is a big difference. As for Bowe I agree that he didn’t want to fight Lewis when he had the title but I have seen a Frank Maloney interview where he said they had signed a contract to fight Bowe if Lewis beat McCall which he didn’t. Lewis has better wins than Wlad not saying he didn’t.

thats what people dont realise, when idiots like LRR complain about all holyfields losses etc they need to realise as far back as '96 when bowe TKO'd him evander was considered done, he even retired briefly around then as he was battling some kind of heart condition also, in fact 7 of evanders ten losses have come after 37 if im not mistaken

Bowe took something out of Evander, which was a bit of his reflexes and maybe a bit of his speed, as well as a tiny bit of his endurance. That is in no way "SHOT". Shot is Tyson against Lewis, Ali vs Holmes etc.

By 99 Evander had come off a 5 victory streak after the last Bowe fight including 2 over Tyson and one over Moorer(needless to say, after Holyfield was done with these men they were never at the top again.)
I dare to say this was Holyfield at his best because of his experience at this point.

So Lewis definitely deserves a lot of credit mate.


I am not saying he was shot that’s what everyone was saying back then, anyway Holyfield was more experienced but he was not the same fighter he was before the 2nd Bowe fight, The last great performance of Holyfield's career was probably his 2nd fight with Moorer but even by that point he was not firing off the combos like he was against Foreman, Bowe or his great fight against Micheal Dokes, even by the time of the Tyson fight you could tell Holyfield had lost some of his speed, I give Lewis a lot of credit for the win but Holyfield was defiantly not at his peak by that point.

thats what people dont realise, when idiots like LRR complain about all holyfields losses etc they need to realise as far back as '96 when bowe TKO'd him evander was considered done, he even retired briefly around then as he was battling some kind of heart condition also, in fact 7 of evanders ten losses have come after 37 if im not mistaken

Yeah i remember the heart problem in the 3rd Bowe fight Foreman kept saying Holyfield could die and they need to get oxygen in his corner and stop the fight.

umm i wonder why hes 0-4-1 in title bouts this decade LRR?

it wouldnt have anything to do with the fact hes in his forties and should have retired ten years ago would it?

and plus he got robbed vs valuev, utter bull****

** Lordy, Lordy, a big ol' :duh: for Lordy Voldy.

Poor dear's been a legacy scalp ever since he stood up to mean ol' bullies for millions of pimply faced boys by showing up rusty Iron Mike ages ago. Means today, they have to take him out of his coffin and prop him up in the ring long enough to get the bout recorded officially in order to notch his scalp in the record.

The last time he actually "fought" someone near the top this decade was when he softened up Rahman with a few juicy headbutts and took a technical decision some 7 yrs ago. Rest of the time, any contender with a pulse just walked him down or moved him around the ring as any proper minder might move his charge around.

Oliver McCall is actually a better fighter this decade, being 44 yrs to the UnHoly 46, and sporting a 51-9 career record compared to UH 42-10-2 record padded out with all those cruiser fights. Ollie is 14-2 this decade with wins over once defeated Akinwande, Yankee Diaz, and Samail Sam compared to UH's "wins" over Rahman and Oquendo and a 5-6-1 record.

The major difference being Ollie being a crackhaid with UnHoly being a juicer, and Ollie having the unstable Golota and Tyson like meltdowns and legal problems instead of the legacy scalp of UH thanks to Tyson. Don King wouldn't let Ollie within a mile of Mike save a few sparring sessions.

Lest there be any question about Ollies ring veracity, with virtually no acclaim at all, prior to this decade he had significant wins over Holmes and Damioni, and the first ever to both beat and KO Seldon, Maskaev, and Lewis.

And no, having a senior moment and thinkin' you're audtioning for Dancing with the Stars don't qualify UnHoly for a win over Valuev. Anyone's nan could kick up her heels and do the same in Switzerland which don't even have a boxing commision. Niko is a gentleman and won't ever be known for bullying addled silly 'ol billygoats around, indeed, they got to keep UH undamaged so King can continue rotating him around for cheap legacy scalps.

Anyone can stand in front of UnHoly and make fun of him with impugnity and the poor dear can't do a darned thing about it, but you'd make a mistake doing that with Ollie. Guy could break you in two in a flash and then dash down to the nearest crack house and forget all about you....:duh: