After watching the Clough documentary last night it made me question my list and wondered what everyone else thought?

1. Alex Ferguson - Most successful manager and still going, won trophies and titles (24 honours) including doubles and trebles and two European Cups. (Also extremely successful in Scottish football - 13 honours)
2. Brian Clough - Took a small club to English and European titles which will probably never be repeated ever again (8 honours for 2 clubs), this included back to back European Cups.
3. Bill Shankley - Took a club that was crumbling at the bottom of the second division and created the foundations of a football empire that dominated for 20 years (7 honours).
4. Bob Paisley - Built on the foundations left by Shankley and pushed Liverpool on (15 honours), this included 3 European Cups including back to back success.
5. Matt Busby - Created the Utd dynasty and perhaps would have won much more but for the Munich plane crash. (8 honours) This includes a European Cup.
6.Arsene Wenger -Created a team that played 'beautiful' football whilst not breaking the bank (7 Honours).
7. Kenny Dalglish - Won the double as Player Manager for Liverpool and the Premiership title for Blackburn (6 Honours)
8. Don Revie - Created a no nonsense physical yet effective Leeds side that were very successful in the late 60's and early 70's (8 Honours)
9.Bobby Robson - Took an 'average' Ipswich side to FA and UEFA Cup triumph and had similar successes in three other country's (2 English Honours and 7 Honours in Holland, Portugal and Spain) He also led the English National side to World Cup Quarters and Semi Finals.
10.. George Graham -Made Arsenal into a workman like yet effective side in the late 80's (7 Honours)


Honourable mentions:
- Gerrard Houllier (5 Honours with Liverpool and 3 French Titles)
- Howard Kendall - His Everton side pushed Liverpool in the mid 80's for superiority (4 Honours)
- Joe ***an - Won a treble for Liverpool in his 18 month spell as Manager.

I think your Top 5 is spot on, but not necesarily in my order.

1. Ferguson.
Although he took over a high-profile club, as opposed to Clough with Forest and Derby, you don't get his success unless you truly are the greatest.

2. Shankly/Clough.
Shankly, simply because he built up the most succesful club in his era. Without Shankly, Paisley and ***an would not have achieved what they did. Clough needs no explanation.

4. Paisley
Took Shankly's gift and ran with it, taking every honour on the way......numerous times.

5. Busby
Would have placed him higher. In fact i should have placed him higher. Built Man Utd into the best team in the world. Lost them in a plane crash. Started a new team and won the European cup in 68.

1. Joe Mercer
2. Wilf Wild
3. Les McDowall
4. Tony Book
5. Tom Maley

After watching the Clough documentary last night it made me question my list and wondered what everyone else thought?

1. Alex Ferguson - Most successful manager and still going, won trophies and titles (24 honours) including doubles and trebles and two European Cups. (Also extremely successful in Scottish football - 13 honours)
2. Brian Clough - Took a small club to English and European titles which will probably never be repeated ever again (8 honours for 2 clubs), this included back to back European Cups.
3. Bill Shankley - Took a club that was crumbling at the bottom of the second division and created the foundations of a football empire that dominated for 20 years (7 honours).
4. Bob Paisley - Built on the foundations left by Shankley and pushed Liverpool on (15 honours), this included 3 European Cups including back to back success.
5. Matt Busby - Created the Utd dynasty and perhaps would have won much more but for the Munich plane crash. (8 honours) This includes a European Cup.
6.Arsene Wenger -Created a team that played 'beautiful' football whilst not breaking the bank (7 Honours).
7. Kenny Dalglish - Won the double as Player Manager for Liverpool and the Premiership title for Blackburn (6 Honours)
8. Don Revie - Created a no nonsense physical yet effective Leeds side that were very successful in the late 60's and early 70's (8 Honours)
9.Bobby Robson - Took an 'average' Ipswich side to FA and UEFA Cup triumph and had similar successes in three other country's (2 English Honours and 7 Honours in Holland, Portugal and Spain) He also led the English National side to World Cup Quarters and Semi Finals.
10.. George Graham -Made Arsenal into a workman like yet effective side in the late 80's (7 Honours)


Honourable mentions:
- Gerrard Houllier (5 Honours with Liverpool and 3 French Titles)
- Howard Kendall - His Everton side pushed Liverpool in the mid 80's for superiority (4 Honours)
- Joe ***an - Won a treble for Liverpool in his 18 month spell as Manager.
Kenny Dalglish is ****, just because he was successful at Liverpool, doesn't make him a good manager.

1. George Graham
2. Bertie Mee
3. Arsene Wenger
4. Terry Neill



end thread.

After watching the Clough documentary last night it made me question my list and wondered what everyone else thought?

1. Alex Ferguson - Most successful manager and still going, won trophies and titles (24 honours) including doubles and trebles and two European Cups. (Also extremely successful in Scottish football - 13 honours)
2. Brian Clough - Took a small club to English and European titles which will probably never be repeated ever again (8 honours for 2 clubs), this included back to back European Cups.
3. Bill Shankley - Took a club that was crumbling at the bottom of the second division and created the foundations of a football empire that dominated for 20 years (7 honours).
4. Bob Paisley - Built on the foundations left by Shankley and pushed Liverpool on (15 honours), this included 3 European Cups including back to back success.
5. Matt Busby - Created the Utd dynasty and perhaps would have won much more but for the Munich plane crash. (8 honours) This includes a European Cup.
6.Arsene Wenger -Created a team that played 'beautiful' football whilst not breaking the bank (7 Honours).
7. Kenny Dalglish - Won the double as Player Manager for Liverpool and the Premiership title for Blackburn (6 Honours)
8. Don Revie - Created a no nonsense physical yet effective Leeds side that were very successful in the late 60's and early 70's (8 Honours)
9.Bobby Robson - Took an 'average' Ipswich side to FA and UEFA Cup triumph and had similar successes in three other country's (2 English Honours and 7 Honours in Holland, Portugal and Spain) He also led the English National side to World Cup Quarters and Semi Finals.
10.. George Graham -Made Arsenal into a workman like yet effective side in the late 80's (7 Honours)


Honourable mentions:
- Gerrard Houllier (5 Honours with Liverpool and 3 French Titles)
- Howard Kendall - His Everton side pushed Liverpool in the mid 80's for superiority (4 Honours)
- Joe ***an - Won a treble for Liverpool in his 18 month spell as Manager.

5 of them are scottish, scots make good managers :cool:

Kenny Dalglish is ****, just because he was successful at Liverpool, doesn't make him a good manager.

He won the league way blackburn as well.

Red and White Army...........BRIAN CLOUGH!!!

He won the league way blackburn as well.

Any team would of won the league with Sutton and Shearer up front.

Micky, why do you rate Houllier highly? I don't consider him a bad manager, but I've been more impressed with Benitez.

He spent a lot of money, making some bad signings, and at least a small amount of his success at Liverpool was down to the work of Phil Thompson.

If Liverpool finish second this year, then I'd rate that above any league performance that GH managed while at the club. Liverpool have consistently been 1st or 2nd in the league this year, whereas Houllier's 2nd place finish featured a very bad run mid-season, and they were out of the title race several games before the end.

I also think that Mourinho has a better track record, especially if you take into account that he's had less time to achieve it.

Micky, why do you rate Houllier highly? I don't consider him a bad manager, but I've been more impressed with Benitez.

He spent a lot of money, making some bad signings, and at least a small amount of his success at Liverpool was down to the work of Phil Thompson.

If Liverpool finish second this year, then I'd rate that above any league performance that GH managed while at the club. Liverpool have consistently been 1st or 2nd in the league this year, whereas Houllier's 2nd place finish featured a very bad run mid-season, and they were out of the title race several games before the end.

I also think that Mourinho has a better track record, especially if you take into account that he's had less time to achieve it.

Some great points mate, I feel that Houllier didn't have the resources as he was still picking his way through some of the damage of the past. Also he achieved the highest finish of a Liverpool team in the Premier League (2nd on 80 points)

Benitez was close and will probably make my list at some point, I concede that Mourinho could be in there but look at the resources at his disposal mate.

Kenny Dalglish is ****, just because he was successful at Liverpool, doesn't make him a good manager.

Why, how many other managers have won the double, not many. How many other player managers have won the title, none.

He built a great side at Blackburn including Shearer and Sutton.

Clough.

Look at what he achieved and then the budget (and players) he achieved it with. Could Fergie do what Clough did without millions of pounds backing him up?

And "The Damned United" is the greatest book on sport I've read.

Clough.

Look at what he achieved and then the budget (and players) he achieved it with. Could Fergie do what Clough did without millions of pounds backing him up?

And "The Damned United" is the greatest book on sport I've read.

Damned Utd is a book of fiction.

Damned Utd is a book of fiction.

And? :dunno:

Damned Utd is a book of fiction.

Personally I thought it was a good read until I found out just how inaccurate it was.

Personally I thought it was a good read until I found out just how inaccurate it was.

Why should inaccuracies detract? As mentioned earlier - TDU is fiction.

Why should inaccuracies detract? As mentioned earlier - TDU is fiction.

Why? because its talking about real life events and people and glorifying and changing them to sell a book.

to be fair tho, I wish the events had happened in IRL as they were portrayed in the book!!!!!

Regardless of the resources Mourinho had at his disposal, he deserves to be up there IMO.

Don Revie is a cunt! Sold out England to fill his pockets in United Arab Emirates, and just an all together ****cunt! And am a Sunderland fan.

Brian Clough is the top bollox IMO. Give Sir Alex a ****ty League One side like Leyton Orient and see if he can turn em into Premiership and European champions? It the same diffrence as when Clough took over at Derby and Forest.

I think the first post is a fair enough list

i think in ten years time Martin o'neill will be in amongst that, i see him as the next man utd manager and success in the prem and winning the champs lge

Why? because its talking about real life events and people and glorifying and changing them to sell a book.

Pretty much all works of fiction are grounded to some lesser or greater degree in reality. Where are you drawing the line, and for what reasons?

Pretty much all works of fiction are grounded to some lesser or greater degree in reality. Where are you drawing the line, and for what reasons?

I draw the line at the point where a story is fiction and uses fact as a basis, i.e. Andy McNab, Chris Ryan stories etc and a book based on true events that are already documented but then sensationalised to sell.

What Peace does in writing this book is that he blurs the lines between reality and fiction. And does not tell the reader which is which. The only people who would know how to differentiate between them are all dead.

Therefore those who do not know the truth will base 'their' opinions of the main characters on the book believing this to be an accurate account of the individuals.

Brian Clough, Don Revie, and Billy Bremner are the book, and are the also the film's main protagonists. And it is not without major significance that these people were the main characters.

You cannot libel the dead.

Clough.

Look at what he achieved and then the budget (and players) he achieved it with. Could Fergie do what Clough did without millions of pounds backing him up?

And "The Damned United" is the greatest book on sport I've read.

You just have to look at what Fergie done with Aberdeen to answer that question.

I draw the line at the point where a story is fiction and uses fact as a basis, i.e. Andy McNab, Chris Ryan stories etc and a book based on true events that are already documented but then sensationalised to sell.

And yet both Ryan's and McNab's books have been severely criticised for being sensationalist.

What Peace does in writing this book is that he blurs the lines between reality and fiction. And does not tell the reader which is which. The only people who would know how to differentiate between them are all dead.

Therefore those who do not know the truth will base 'their' opinions of the main characters on the book believing this to be an accurate account of the individuals.

Surely that's the fault of the reader, not the author. Peace wrote it as a work of fiction - not fact masquerading as fiction. If I contracted lung cancer tomorrow and I chose to sue the tobacco companies I wouldn't get very far. Quite rightly they would say I was warned. It was written on the side of each packet in big bold letters. Why should Peace be criticised if people are too stupid to ignore the words F-I-C-T-I-O-N and consider it a historical text?

You just have to look at what Fergie done with Aberdeen to answer that question.

The difference in standard between Scottish Football and English Football is 'Atlantic Ocean' like, even back then.

Clough Derby and Forest>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ferguson Aberdeen.

Man Utd were a top flight team when Fergie took them over.

Clough, no question.

Taggart has always had money to buy the best players so it's not as impressive.

Clough had to work a budget, and won back to European titles.

Clough may not have been the best, but he is in the top 1.

Fergie would not have led Forest or Derby to the title IMO.

I had the pleasure of meeting the GREAT Brian Clough, he signed me a photo in his office at forest.

Clough did it with style and grace. Great record as a player too.

The difference in standard between Scottish Football and English Football is 'Atlantic Ocean' like, even back then.

Clough Derby and Forest>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ferguson Aberdeen.

Man Utd were a top flight team when Fergie took them over.

They were only just a top flight team.

They were only just a top flight team.

They were still a top flight team when he took them over. Derby and Forest were struggling second division teams when Clough took them over. You know the rest.

Clough>>>>>>Fergie IMO.

And yet both Ryan's and McNab's books have been severely criticised for being sensationalist.

Yes but you know they are sensationalist therefore you are not misleading anyone.

Surely that's the fault of the reader, not the author. Peace wrote it as a work of fiction - not fact masquerading as fiction. If I contracted lung cancer tomorrow and I chose to sue the tobacco companies I wouldn't get very far. Quite rightly they would say I was warned. It was written on the side of each packet in big bold letters. Why should Peace be criticised if people are too stupid to ignore the words F-I-C-T-I-O-N and consider it a historical text?

If that was true then Johnny Giles libel case would not have stood, he won his case as would have Taylor, Bremner and Clough had they had been alive.

How are people too stupid when Pease himself called it Fiction based on Fact hence the obvious confusion, unless you were there how could you know what to believe?

No is doubting that this is a well written book however....read the first article below as it presents this argument more eloquently than I do.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/145363-lies-damned-lies-and-the-damned-united

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/local-west-yorkshire-news/2009/03/24/review-exclusive-damned-united-hits-screens-86081-23216964/2/

http://www.epltalk.com/dont-be-fooled-by-the-damned-united/5059/comment-page-1/

The difference in standard between Scottish Football and English Football is 'Atlantic Ocean' like, even back then.



EXACTLY

And that makes it even more remarkable that Ferguson won 2 European Trophys at aberdeen and had them ranked the best club team in the world.

EXACTLY

And that makes it even more remarkable that Ferguson won 2 European Trophys at aberdeen and had them ranked the best club team in the world.

Talk about being ignorant :lol1: you just owned the cunt :D

Only an idiot would say that Ferguson is not possibly the best manager in the history of the game, even if he is a whiny old pisshead.