Who Can Handle Vitali in the Historical Pantheon? [Archive]

LondonRingRules

03-21-2009, 09:05 PM

Ignoring that Wlad actually sports the better record, lets take a look at Vitali's impact on the heavy division.

Here's IBRO top 20. Who has a chance to beat Vitali in the bunch? Keep in mind that all but Rocky have significant losses on their records, so I don't want to here the usual bleating of doggerel 8th grade poets making their favorites gimmees over Vitali when we know that ain't the way it's ever gonna go down.

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
James J. Jeffries
George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Gene Tunney
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Sam Langford
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Harry Wills
James J. Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons

Vitali didn't look hot beating down JCGomez, but lets face facts here. Gomez is not only hugely bigger/stronger than the Mildenberger that had Ali in some trouble, but his record of excellence against top level fighters a light year ahead of Mildi's record.

Still, Vitali steadily zeroed in and as far as I can tell, appears to be the first to ever KD Gomez. The fight a very technical one as I had predicted on another board, not a slug fest, which broaches the obvious question, who is a better pure boxer than Vitali in history in the art of hitting without being hit?

Have at it idolators and haters alike. I want to see a good scrap!

KostyaTszyu44

03-21-2009, 09:30 PM

PED User

03-21-2009, 09:40 PM

I don't know. You look at Vitali's size and strength and he does do things well. He gauges distance well, as he often gets away with sloppy habits like leaning back. He throws arm punches frequently but has heavy enough hands and accuracy that the damage will build up. He showed a solid chin against Lewis.

But then, you look at the guys he's done it against. Yes I know a lot of guys face weak-ish opposition, especially in the HW division, but Vitali's is especially weak, and didn't even beat the top guys in the division.

The Lewis he faced hadn't fought in over a year, was aging, and not in good shape. Yeah he gave Lewis trouble, but so did Frank Bruno for 6 rounds. So did Mercer for 10. And those were against better versions of Lewis. Yeah, he was beating Byrd on points, but still lost, and I can only give so much credit to "well he was doing well before he lost", injury/cut or not.

Slimey Limey

03-21-2009, 10:30 PM

I think every single one of them except for Wills and Langford would beat him. If Sam the man gained weight he would also beat Vit.

them_apples

03-22-2009, 03:13 AM

anyone fast would beat him, although he did give an older Lennox hell.

JAB5239

03-22-2009, 04:36 AM

JAB5239

03-22-2009, 04:45 AM

I think every single one of them except for Wills and Langford would beat him. If Sam the man gained weight he would also beat Vit.

And how would Sam beat him if he gained weight? As great as Langford was he's still giving up more than a foot in height, would still be at a considerable weight disadvantage, and in all likelyhood lose speed by gaining your hypothetical pounds. So tell us exactly why you think he would beat Vitaly if he "gained weight". tell us of all his advantages in this fantasy match up.

LondonRingRules

03-22-2009, 10:27 PM

Vitali's is especially weak, and didn't even beat the top guys in the division.

The Lewis he faced hadn't fought in over a year, was aging, and not in good shape.

** OK, you made some good valid points about Vitali's style that few pick up on, yet fall short with the above.

Keep in mind that both the brothers were having as much trouble as Chris Byrd in making fights. Lewis wouldn't even mention them. They were the top 3challengers to Lewis at the close of the 90s opening up the new millennium. Maybe Wlad and Byrd not the top WBC rated challengers, but that's a different kettle of fish. I'm talking consensus boxrec/ring/and ********* type ratings.

Vitali was out 8 months as the WBC #1 contender waiting on Lewis to get off his pot. Lewis had an optional defense lined up against Kirk Johnson, but what he really wanted was the lucrative Tyson rematch which was going to be promoted by Tyson being on the undercard against Boswell. Tyson pulls out late, Vitali agrees to be his replacement hoping to promote his opportunity, then Johnson is hurt and pulls out, and with only a couple of weeks before the fight, Vitali agrees to what he feels is his only shot against Lewis who seems primed to retire without fighting him.

It's a fact for all you Jacks that Lewis had a full 2 month training camp and some additional training for a week or two a month before his official training camp. Yeah, he comes in at a career high, but had been gaining weight as all heavies do on a steady basis, and his six fights before, he'd averaged around 249-250 lbs, so 7 extra lbs is nothing for a man that size. That's about what my weight fluctuates as on a daily or weekly basis as a smaller man.

Yes, Lewis was entering that declining age, yet had pitched his two best masterclasses ever against Rahman in the rematch and Tyson with tons of plaudits. If anything, Vitali was the one disadvantaged with short notice on training and having to keep his schedule open in case the rumoured bout became reality. Sure, Lewis chose to be inactive for a year, and Vitali was forced out 8 months to hold on the the hints being dropped that Lewis might fight him soon.

OK, he lost the Lewis bout that he was winning do to no fault of his own yet got most of the plaudits. He lost the battle, won the war, becoming The Man who drove Lewis into retirement. He fights Johnson in the title eliminator. What's a guy who's been ducked and maneuvered around most of his career do, turn down title opportunities? Johnson was a Ring top ten fighter at least.

Then he fights Sanders for the WBC title and family honour. Is he supposed to turn that down? Sanders had also cracked Ring's top ten. Then Williams because Dannyboy ruined his dream fight with Tyson. Williams was on the fringes of the 10 list if he hadn't cracked it. That's four consecutive Ring ranked fighters right there which includes the champion. Looks to me like Vitali stepped it up big time when given opportunity with a 3-1, 3 KO record.

He comes back after 4 years and beats the Ring #2 fighter who's been in the Ring top ten longer than any heavy, then he beats his mandatory who was Ring #9. So now we're up to 6 consecutive Ring ranked fighters with nary a Coopman, Leon, London, Frank, Marvis, Cobb, Ocasio, ect mixed in for easy fare. 5-1, 5 KO.

Look, Vitali has weaknesses like all fighters, but I don't see how being in denial over the true nature of his record enhances the life of a true boxing fan.

I'll be addressing his fate against IBRO top 20 in my follow up post.

LondonRingRules

03-22-2009, 11:39 PM

Here's IBRO top 20. Who has a chance to beat Vitali in the bunch?

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes
James J. Jeffries
George Foreman
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Gene Tunney
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Sam Langford
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Harry Wills
James J. Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons

Joe Louis: Joe a history of beating huge men in Carnera, Buddy Baer who is Vitali sized, and Simon. Knocked em all out. Primo gives him a fine battle. Simon big, slow and clumsy, and Buddy gave away his height and reach by going inside like he was 5-10 instead of 6-6. Joe one of the few with a more than fair chance.

Muhammad Ali: Ali another one with a fair chance. No history of big men save Terrell and Foreman, a couple sizes below Vitali. Still, with Ali talent and movement, I don't give the comeback Ali much chance, the prime Ali is in the game.

Jack Johnson: Those who know me know JJ not ranked highly. Good showing against Willard, but Vitali a better, more active boxer who controls space better than Willard did.

Jack Dempsey: Jack another one with a stellar record against big men. With his quick style which included brutal body work inside, he has one of the best chances.

Rocky Marciano: Love the Rock like life itself, but sorry......

Larry Holmes: Larry managed to have his prototype Bowe/Golota fight against Cooney. Vitali not a low blower. Big Pants Lar shut down and out.

James J. Jeffries: Love Jeff more than the Rock, but his proto-primative style dooms him here.

George Foreman: No real history against big men, but he's a smallish big man and smashed up a pretty decent big boy against Briggs in George's last fight. Size, strength, and chin sees Big George with a fair chance here.

Sonny Liston: No history against big men. A bully I feel would be intimdated. Has the skills and natural attributes to have a fair chance, but who'd really chance a bet for Liston?

Joe Frazier: Joe also with a fair chance because of his waterbug style hard to time. Giving away a solid 45lbs of muscle with no history against big men save Mathis whom he did a number on, Joe in the running as a dark horse

Gene Tunney: Clever guy, but a boxer. Nobody his size to outbox Vitali.

Lennox Lewis: Already beat Vitali, but it was Vitali who showed the class over Lewis: Figure the results to go up and down as matched in a sequential fashion through their careers.

Mike Tyson: Give Iron Mike the best chance on natural attributes, but his bully mentality may fail him here. Still, he's in the running big time.

Evander Holyfield: Sorry, one of my favs in the day, but the guy had massive troubles against big men. Figure Vitali KOs him in a terrible beatdown.

Sam Langford: Sam THE MAN, but giving up over a foot in height and reach as well as 75 lbs of body weight, well, A TALL ORDER comes to mind. Not a fair chance for Sam, but a SAM chance for Sam. Don't ever count Sam Langford out of ANY fight.

Jersey Joe Walcott: Plenty of prayers to be said over JJ.

Ezzard Charles: Brilliant fighter/Warrior, but not any kind of fair matchup.

Harry Wills: Would be dwarfed and armed with a somewhat weak chin. Nope.

James J. Corbett: Nope

Bob Fitzsimmons: Nope.

So, that's Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali, Jack Dempsey, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Sam Langford, 8 fighters total that I give a chance to beat Vitali.

I have opinions as to who would win against whom, but that's not really the point of the exercise. We can't prove who can beat who, but we can establish a stylistic and natural attributes baseline of heavies who could compete today.

I might add, in spite of a somewhat clumsy fight against the awkward Gomez, Vitali at age 37 is likely the best he's ever been and a damn sight better than any old man heavy not named Big George. Be interesting to see how he closes his career.

I haven't been impressed much with the way the brothers appear to be double teaming young Haye, though Haye is a bit of a numpty, and reports that Vitali tried some funny business with the ring size in the Gomez fight. Now, that is disturbing, but this being boxing, have no idea of the truth of the matter

Great time to be a boxing fan as long as your high waders are intact, and we shall see what we shall see come to pass, so cheerio all............:cool:

Timothy Horton

03-24-2009, 02:33 PM

the ones in bold would all beat Vitali in my view

size isnt everything, vitali is very slow like all men that size and its not like he automatically storms over opponents, chris byrd beat him as did an old lewis, he isnt a superhuman monster, hes just big and tough with a solid chin/punch and ok skillsI think Tyson would have creamed him.

1SILVA

03-24-2009, 02:42 PM

Davros?

03-24-2009, 03:27 PM

I don't have time to go into an in depth analysis but if i was betting i would favor.

Muhammad Ali (speed and movement would cause vitali to much trouble imo)
Jack Dempsey (was very good against Willard who had a style like Vitali's)
Larry Holmes (great jab and movement in his prime plus amazing recovery ability and good combo puncher)
George Foreman ( great power and immense presence Vitali was never very good fighting when being backed up)
Sonny Liston (amazing reach and power jab would cause Vitali trouble plus Liston was a great boxer very underrated by many)
Joe Frazier ( great upper body movement and put opponents under incredible pressure if he backs Vitali up i would pick him)
Lennox Lewis (already beat him)
Mike Tyson ( great upper body movement and power with good hand speed)
Evander Holyfield (great jab combos and body movement if he uses the tactics he did in the 2nd Bowe fight)

JAB5239

03-24-2009, 04:05 PM

Riddick Bowe of 92-95 beats him. Bowe was a great inside fighter for a big man and had tons more heart than the Klitshco brothers combined. The Bowe that fought Golota was shot. The Bowe that beat Holyfield twice I believe would kayo both brothers

Yeah, I would give Bowe a very good shot at beating him with both at their best. Don't know why I forgot him or left him out.

Clegg

03-24-2009, 04:22 PM

** OK, you made some good valid points about Vitali's style that few pick up on, yet fall short with the above.

Keep in mind that both the brothers were having as much trouble as Chris Byrd in making fights. Lewis wouldn't even mention them. They were the top 3challengers to Lewis at the close of the 90s opening up the new millennium. Maybe Wlad and Byrd not the top WBC rated challengers, but that's a different kettle of fish. I'm talking consensus boxrec/ring/and ********* type ratings.

When considering Vitali's desire to prove himself/fight the best, this is valid, but it doesn't mean anything when considering how good he was really was(/is). Whether he did all he could to fight the best or not, his proven track record is pretty underwhelming.

Obviously all fantasy fights are just opinion, but with Vitali there is a lot less to base those opinions on than with the boxers who are usually rated in the top 10 of all time.

BattlingNelson

03-24-2009, 04:37 PM

Head to head Vitaly is an imposing figure for any fighter in history. I think Lennox beats him. Ali. Maybe Holmes. Maybe Louis. I think Tunney could give him fits, and I would favor Holyfield and Foreman. Tyson might be able to pull the trick but I wouldn't be willing to bet on it. Everybody else I think he beats clearly.
I agree. Vitali would have a good versus any opponent.

Wins: I think Ali, Louis and Holmes beats him. Louis may even kayo him.

Good shots: Dempsey, who brutalized Willard has a good shot. As would Tyson as he often had reasonable succes against big guys and often he didn't :). Tunney was a smart fighter so I wouldn't count him out either. Marciano would give Vitali a brutal slugfest which could go either way I think. The Frazier that fought Ali in the garden might be able to land that perfect hook on Vitali.

Likely losers: The slow Foreman will be brutalized in a slugfest although he could get lucky. Lewis will lose if he doesn't cut Vitali up. People forget that Vitali took the fight on 2 weeks notice instead focusing on Lewis being heavy despite having a long hard camp. Jack Johnson was a smart fighter with nifty moves, combos and arrogance, but I cant see him winning. Perhaps if the fight is a 20 rounder Vitali might gas if Johnson stays upright that long.

No chance: James J. Jeffries will land nothing I think. Sonny Liston might have succes with his brilliant jab but I think Vitali discourage him and stop him. Evander Holyfield will hang in there but will receive a merciless beating. Ezzard Charles had good skills but would probably have a very hard time with the giant. Jersey Joe will win some rounds but not the fight.
James J. Corbett and Bob Fitzsimmons well I cannot see them have a chance at all.

No opinions: Sam Langford is praised a lot as an ATG p4p fighter. I havent read enough about him to give an educated guess. I know next to nothing about Harry Wills.

KostyaTszyu44

03-24-2009, 05:24 PM

I agree. Vitali would have a good versus any opponent.

Wins: I think Ali, Louis and Holmes beats him. Louis may even kayo him.

Good shots: Dempsey, who brutalized Willard has a good shot. As would Tyson as he often had reasonable succes against big guys and often he didn't :). Tunney was a smart fighter so I wouldn't count him out either. Marciano would give Vitali a brutal slugfest which could go either way I think. The Frazier that fought Ali in the garden might be able to land that perfect hook on Vitali.

Likely losers: The slow Foreman will be brutalized in a slugfest although he could get lucky. Lewis will lose if he doesn't cut Vitali up. People forget that Vitali took the fight on 2 weeks notice instead focusing on Lewis being heavy despite having a long hard camp. Jack Johnson was a smart fighter with nifty moves, combos and arrogance, but I cant see him winning. Perhaps if the fight is a 20 rounder Vitali might gas if Johnson stays upright that long.

No chance: James J. Jeffries will land nothing I think. Sonny Liston might have succes with his brilliant jab but I think Vitali discourage him and stop him. Evander Holyfield will hang in there but will receive a merciless beating. Ezzard Charles had good skills but would probably have a very hard time with the giant. Jersey Joe will win some rounds but not the fight.
James J. Corbett and Bob Fitzsimmons well I cannot see them have a chance at all.

No opinions: Sam Langford is praised a lot as an ATG p4p fighter. I havent read enough about him to give an educated guess. I know next to nothing about Harry Wills.

you're a biased idiot...marciao, dempsey and tunney beat vitali, but evander doesnt? wtf is your problem with evander? you're a ****ing retard

res

03-24-2009, 07:06 PM

you're a biased idiot...marciao, dempsey and tunney beat vitali, but evander doesnt? wtf is your problem with evander? you're a ****ing retard

He is not being biased, you just disagree with him.

He gave Tyson, a modern fighter a good chance, so he is not excluding the modern fighters, and Vitali himself is a modern fighter..

phallus

03-24-2009, 08:04 PM

for sure,

i'd say ali, holmes, frazier, louis, probably dempsey and tunney

possibly,
liston would have a good chance, as would big george foreman. if marciano stays on the inside and attacks that long body i'd give him a chance

The_Bringer

03-26-2009, 07:37 AM

LondonRingRules

03-26-2009, 08:29 AM

Off that list, I would give Ali, Louis, Frazier, Foreman, Dempsey, and Lewis all solid chances at beating Vitali.

Prime Riddick Bowe was mentioned, and is another one whom I'd lay money on to beat Vitali.

** Opinions, opinions gentlemen, my kingdom for another opinion to tithe my royal lineage.

I would point out that the historical record supports very few of your choices. The Bringer, whether by happy accident or well considered choice
has made the most credible grouping of the responses thus far.

Notice how he couches his language such that his picks are given solid chances of victory, acknowledgement of the significant talents and considerable natural attributes of the Kbros.

Louis more particularly has an excellent track record against prime or near prime giants, Lewis next, then Dempsey. Ali and Frazier lag a bit behind these two, their eras with fewer giant type contenders of the past. Ali did beat a smallish giant in Foreman and Wepner, and I guess Bugner, and Frazier has prime undefeated Mathis and also Bugner.

Unfortunately, young Bowe's management feared him being exposed against big sluggers, so I wouldn't qualify him as having any history of superiority over big men seeing how the only prime big man he met not only outboxed him easily, but beat the bejibberjabbers out of him and into retirement in what should have been his physical prime. Many close to him claimed he began showing signs of dementia around this time. Given the lack of significant comp prior to Golota save for the smallish Holy, I cannot support that this guy was in the class of the great champions who stalked and terrorized the division in the past.

I would also point out that era giants Willard and Primo would also have a decent chance at the Kbros. Both very underrated for boxing skills and using their size, and both clearly as big, or even stronger as in Primo's case. I put Big George in this grouping, the baby of a big bunch. He did beat Wepner early in his career, and though he lost a travesty against Briggs, George blasted him around the ring and had him running for dear life.

There are those upset if Holy is not picked, but only Vitali has any history of losing to a guy his size, and that on injury in a fight Vitali was pitching near a shut out in late and easily could have coasted in for a win. He understands now he made a mistake in retiring. It can be argued that Holy beat Douglas, Bowe, and Big George, true enough, so I won't argue with anyone wanting to include him, but Douglas was never in training much less ever in the fight and Holy was shipped major damage by Bowe and George, not the blueprint on how to beat vastly bigger, stronger fighters.

I'd could include Tunney for his boxing and Holy for his toughness in as darkhorse selections, but wouldn't wager a wooden nickel on the result.

The_Bringer

03-26-2009, 09:07 AM

** Opinions, opinions gentlemen, my kingdom for another opinion to tithe my royal lineage.

I would point out that the historical record supports very few of your choices. The Bringer, whether by happy accident or well considered choice
has made the most credible grouping of the responses thus far.

Notice how he couches his language such that his picks are given solid chances of victory, acknowledgement of the significant talents and considerable natural attributes of the Kbros.

Louis more particularly has an excellent track record against prime or near prime giants, Lewis next, then Dempsey. Ali and Frazier lag a bit behind these two, their eras with fewer giant type contenders of the past. Ali did beat a smallish giant in Foreman and Wepner, and I guess Bugner, and Frazier has prime undefeated Mathis and also Bugner.

Unfortunately, young Bowe's management feared him being exposed against big sluggers, so I wouldn't qualify him as having any history of superiority over big men seeing how the only prime big man he met not only outboxed him easily, but beat the bejibberjabbers out of him and into retirement in what should have been his physical prime. Many close to him claimed he began showing signs of dementia around this time. Given the lack of significant comp prior to Golota save for the smallish Holy, I cannot support that this guy was in the class of the great champions who stalked and terrorized the division in the past.

I would also point out that era giants Willard and Primo would also have a decent chance at the Kbros. Both very underrated for boxing skills and using their size, and both clearly as big, or even stronger as in Primo's case. I put Big George in this grouping, the baby of a big bunch. He did beat Wepner early in his career, and though he lost a travesty against Briggs, George blasted him around the ring and had him running for dear life.

There are those upset if Holy is not picked, but only Vitali has any history of losing to a guy his size, and that on injury in a fight Vitali was pitching near a shut out in late and easily could have coasted in for a win. He understands now he made a mistake in retiring. It can be argued that Holy beat Douglas, Bowe, and Big George, true enough, so I won't argue with anyone wanting to include him, but Douglas was never in training much less ever in the fight and Holy was shipped major damage by Bowe and George, not the blueprint on how to beat vastly bigger, stronger fighters.

I'd could include Tunney for his boxing and Holy for his toughness in as darkhorse selections, but wouldn't wager a wooden nickel on the result.

Louis I would give the best chance at beating Vitali, as you mentioned, he not only beat giants like Baer, Simon, and Carnera : He knocked them out. Carnera hit the deck three times, and Simon topped that, tumbling to the mat 4 times. Abe paid gravely for giving up his height in that one.

Behind Louis as the #1 seed I would tap Dempsey. Dempsey's record against the giants of his time holds up pretty well, with knockout wins over giants of his time like Fulton and Willard.

At # 3 I would have either Lewis, or Frazier. I'm really not sure which one. Smokin' Joe's record against big men isn't as good as Louis' or Dempsey's, but I like him as a dark horse because of his tenacity. Also, stylistically I think he could give Vitali problems because he's not given nearly enough credit for slipping past the jab and making inroads on his opponet.

I like his chances if he could slip inside on Vitali, because Vitali relies so heavily on the jab.

Lewis would probably be #4. I think he could win a very close, technical decision over Vitali. I don't think that even a prime Lewis would go in against Klitschko looking for any sort of stoppage or knockout. Lewis was a far more technical fighter and was content to win on points for the most part.

Ali I place at #5. Because he's never faced an opponet the size of Klitschko. Sure Foreman and Terrell were big, as you noted, but they were not in line with someone like either Klitschko brother. Frankly, I think Ali would be puzzled by a giant who fights in a technical manner. He's more used to come forward, brawling style big men like a Frazier, or a Foreman.

He would really have to adjust in order to win it.

At #6 I would place Foreman. He was a very slow, wide puncher. It would be a strange fight to watch unfold, because Klitschko would be so determined to keep George at bay (for obvious reasons), and George would be so determined to get inside (again, for obvious reasons).

I have reservations about Foreman being able to close the distance, given Klitschko's superb jab. And if he couldn't close that distance, he'd lose the fight. Still, he was a heavy handed son of a *****, and he always has that puncher's chance. Which is why I included him on my list of picks.

And you may very well be right about Riddick Bowe. I would love to have seen those 2 scrap, regardless of the outcome.

Timothy Horton

03-26-2009, 09:10 AM

Vitali has a long body and I know that when i was fighting i used to love to get inside and chop down taller guys. yea, yea, he's able to use his reach and he gets away with pulling his head back (mainly because he has never fought a great fighter with similar statistics as him who was in their prime. the one great fighter that he did face was lennox who was on his last legs (or so it could be said) and lennox was getting to him and really wearing him down. it started with the body attacking and how often did lennox ever go to the body?

Timothy Horton

03-26-2009, 09:16 AM

duh. the point that i was trying to make is that most of the top twenty beat him in my opinion. including some of the smaller cuties like ezzard charles and joe walcott. hell. feather fisted chris byrd started rocking vitali near the end.

poet682006

03-26-2009, 01:27 PM

Take anybody's Heavyweight ATG list and you have a list of the fighters who could handle Vitali. Gentlemen, he just isn't that good.

Poet

paul750

03-26-2009, 02:10 PM

Timothy Horton

03-26-2009, 02:46 PM

Take anybody's Heavyweight ATG list and you have a list of the fighters who could handle Vitali. Gentlemen, he just isn't that good.

Poetpre-freakin'-cisely!

Chase8400

03-26-2009, 03:37 PM

Joe Louis: Joe a history of beating huge men in Carnera, Buddy Baer who is Vitali sized, and Simon. Knocked em all out. Primo gives him a fine battle. Simon big, slow and clumsy, and Buddy gave away his height and reach by going inside like he was 5-10 instead of 6-................................

................................Great time to be a boxing fan as long as your high waders are intact, and we shall see what we shall see come to pass, so cheerio all............:cool:

Damn, I didn't know you could lay it down like that. Outstanding posts here. Very unbiased approach that I feel a good % of the members here can appreciate. Sprinkle Sprinkle.

P.S. We need more posters here like you. Keep up the good work. You seem very boxing-literate.

BattlingNelson

03-26-2009, 03:54 PM

Take anybody's Heavyweight ATG list and you have a list of the fighters who could handle Vitali. Gentlemen, he just isn't that good.

Poet
What's you take on Vitali's chances against the fighters LRR mentioned Poet?

Chase8400

03-26-2009, 04:17 PM

Take anybody's Heavyweight ATG list and you have a list of the fighters who could handle Vitali. Gentlemen, he just isn't that good.

Poet

LOL. If you think everyone on the list beats Vitali, you're out of your right mind.

While I entertain that half of the list has a good chance, most of the smallish guys such as Dempsey and Fitsimmons just don't stand a chance. Vitali has the size advantage of Lennox Lewis, the chin of Marciano and the punch placement/accuracy of Joe Lewis. He's no pushover as you suggest.

His physical advantages cannot be ignored when placing him against the ATG's. If he was placed in the ring with anyone on this list, it's hard to imagine anybody beating him easily. Least of all being the smaller guys.

Nice thread in general. I've got my opinion on the whole deal but don't have the time to lay it down. I'll hold my peace..............for now.

Chase8400

03-26-2009, 04:25 PM

Larry Holmes is the first person who comes to mind. I just can't see Klitschko dealing with that jab. Lewis has to be another one. Klitschko was in his prime and Lewis had one foot in retirement. It doesn't matter how much people talk about that fight, the fact remains that it was the best version of Klitschko versus a Lewis who had accomplished what he wanted. Lewis would have busted him up again, had the fight taken place two years before it did and a rematch followed. It wasn't a freak cut, it was multiple cuts and a busted lip etc. It would have happened again.

Bowe should certainly be mentioned, as should Tyson. I think Holyfield's intensity and rough way of fighting would have given Klitschko problems, as long as the Real Deal didn't fight Klitschko's fight. Obviously these are just the modern heavyweights I'm mentioning. How about throwing Ray Mercer in there. He could take a lot of punishment and when he used the jab well he almost beat Lewis. Wladimir Klitschko actually fought Mercer, but it was a Mercer past his prime.

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I suppose all the good Klitschko wins were against 'past their prime' fighters in some way or another , huh?

Was Gomez past his prime? Not before the fight, but now he is huh?

Like Lennox Lewis. Lennox showed no signs before or during the fight with Vitali that indicated him being past anything. He was throwing hard and accurate punches from start to finish in the VK fight. He was just getting beaten by a better fighter that night. Just Like Kostya Tszyu did aginst Hatton. But since they elected to not fight after those bouts, they were all washed up and ready to retire before the fight, etc. etc. etc.....

I call BS and I'm sure allot of other people do. Lennox had never looked better than he had against Tyson. I refuse to believe that he was less than himself against Klitschko.

P.S. I happen to think that Wlad has a better jab and right hand than Lewis too. He is just not as fluid as Lennox was and doesn't throw the uppercut nearly as well.

poet682006

03-26-2009, 04:26 PM

What's you take on Vitali's chances against the fighters LRR mentioned Poet?

To be honest I have him ignored and only glanced at the posts where he's quoted.

Poet

poet682006

03-26-2009, 04:29 PM

LOL. If you think everyone on the list beats Vitali, you're out of your right mind.

While I entertain that half of the list has a good chance, most of the smallish guys such as Dempsey and Fitsimmons just don't stand a chance. Vitali has the size advantage of Lennox Lewis, the chin of Marciano and the punch placement/accuracy of Joe Lewis. He's no pushover as you suggest.

His physical advantages cannot be ignored when placing him against the ATG's. If he was placed in the ring with anyone on this list, it's hard to imagine anybody beating him easily. Least of all being the smaller guys.

Nice thread in general. I've got my opinion on the whole deal but don't have the time to lay it down. I'll hold my peace..............for now.

Unlike some posters I'm not a size whore. My primary question is who the better fighter is not who the bigger fighter is. In this case, Vitali is NOT an ATG and his prospective opponents are. Period.

Poet

The_Bringer

03-26-2009, 04:36 PM

LOL. If you think everyone on the list beats Vitali, you're out of your right mind.

While I entertain that half of the list has a good chance, most of the smallish guys such as Dempsey and Fitsimmons just don't stand a chance. Vitali has the size advantage of Lennox Lewis, the chin of Marciano and the punch placement/accuracy of Joe Lewis. He's no pushover as you suggest.

His physical advantages cannot be ignored when placing him against the ATG's. If he was placed in the ring with anyone on this list, it's hard to imagine anybody beating him easily. Least of all being the smaller guys.

Nice thread in general. I've got my opinion on the whole deal but don't have the time to lay it down. I'll hold my peace..............for now.

I completely disagree with the bolded, you are either blatantly ignoring Dempsey's record against giants like Fulton and Willard, or you're woefully ignorant of it.

poet682006

03-26-2009, 04:39 PM

I suppose all the good Klitschko wins were against 'past their prime' fighters in some way or another , huh?

Then please name the GOOD in-prime fighters that Vitali has beaten.

Was Gomez past his prime? Not before the fight, but now he is huh?

I said GOOD in-prime fighters: Not the tomato cans posing as contenders these days.

Like Lennox Lewis. Lennox showed no signs before or during the fight with Vitali that indicated him being past anything. He was throwing hard and accurate punches from start to finish in the VK fight. He was just getting beaten by a better fighter that night. Just Like Kostya Tszyu did aginst Hatton. But since they elected to not fight after those bouts, they were all washed up and ready to retire before the fight, etc. etc. etc.....

Remind me how old Lennox was for that fight? He was past-prime by every standard.

I refuse to believe that he was less than himself against Klitschko.

A tenent of faith prehaps? I prefer objective reality where boxing is concerned. I would rather KNOW than BELIEVE.

Poet

BattlingNelson

03-26-2009, 04:44 PM

To be honest I have him ignored and only glanced at the posts where he's quoted.

Poet
A shame. I would like to read your opinion. The topic is interesting even if you have LRR on ignore or not.

poet682006

03-26-2009, 04:50 PM

A shame. I would like to read your opinion. The topic is interesting even if you have LRR on ignore or not.

Well, my take on it in a nutshell, is that Vitali is a near-great Heavyweight but NOT an ATG. As such I can't picture him taking any extended series with a true great. Be capable of pulling an upset? Sure. But actually coming out ahead in a best of ten? No.

Poet

Chase8400

03-26-2009, 04:54 PM

Unlike some posters I'm not a size whore. My primary question is who the better fighter is not who the bigger fighter is. In this case, Vitali is NOT an ATG and his prospective opponents are. Period.

Poet

Does "Who Can Handle Vitali in the Historical Pantheon?" mean anything to you or does it sound familiar?

Oh yea, it's what the thread is all about.Who would beat who if Vitali were to face the ATG's on the list.....................................
Which is what I was commenting on, despite the fighters sizes. It's apparent that you didn't pay full attention or simply don't care what the threads premis is.

Either way though, I think this post makes you look somewhat foolish, doesn't it.

poet682006

03-26-2009, 05:04 PM

Does "Who Can Handle Vitali in the Historical Pantheon?" mean anything to you or does it sound familiar?

Oh yea, it's what the thread is all about.Who would beat who if Vitali were to face the ATG's on the list.....................................
Which is what I was commenting on, despite the fighters sizes. It's apparent that you didn't pay full attention or simply don't care what the threads premis is.

Either way though, I think this post makes you look somewhat foolish, doesn't it.

"Who can handle Vitali in the historical pantheon?" is an implicit question of who is better: Vitali or X. I think my response is very logical since practically ever reason given for picking Vitali starts with "Vitali is much bigger": Hence my response that unlike some I'm not a size whore. Who looks foolish? The person who asks "who's bigger?" or the person who asks "who's better?"? Hmmm? Unless, of course, you are someone who subscribes to the tenent that "bigger equals better" in which case that makes you a "size whore" ie. someone who is size obsessed and uses it as their primary criterion in picking matchups.

Poet

Chase8400

03-26-2009, 05:08 PM

I completely disagree with the bolded, you are either blatantly ignoring Dempsey's record against giants like Fulton and Willard, or you're woefully ignorant of it.

I actually am a big Dempsey fan and have a fairly close relation to him that I don't care to duscuss at this time. While Jack had a great record against larger fighters, none of them were anywhere near Klitschko's caliber. They were very slow clubbers who who were nowhere near as coordinated and certainly didn't possess a defense like Vitali. Dempsey was a killer puncher P4P but is simply too one dimentional and small to beat VK. He would no doubt be knocked out.

You probably think I'm just a blinded biased idiot because Vitali is in my sig, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Sorry to bust a bubble about Dempsey since it appears that we both love the guy, but that is the truth coming in the form of my boxing-savy opinion.

Chase8400

03-26-2009, 05:24 PM

Let me start by saying , hahahahaha, cute stuff from you. (no serious disrespect)

Then please name the GOOD in-prime fighters that Vitali has beaten.

Dicky Ryan(first guy to beat Bryan Neilson)
Herbie Hyde
Chris Byrd(Yes he beat him. Don't be stupid)
Orlin Norris
Larry Donald
Kirk Johnson
Corrie Sanders(in his prime enough to beat Wladimir)
Danny Williams
Sam Peter
Juan Gomez(depends on who you as before or after the fight)

Is that enough for you?
Being good and in their prime is subject to opinion though. I'm not too sure you are grasping that, however.

I said GOOD in-prime fighters: Not the tomato cans posing as contenders these days.
Another opinion.........I see a patern.

Remind me how old Lennox was for that fight? He was past-prime by every standard.
He was 37. Same age as Calzaghe for the Jones fight. Who was also from the UK , was also dominant in his class and was also NOT past his prime. This is opinion, except you have nothing but your opinion backing you up.

A tenent of faith prehaps? I prefer objective reality where boxing is concerned. I would rather KNOW than BELIEVE..

Fair enough. Why don't you PROVE to me that Lennox was past his best when he faced Vitali so that I may KNOW as you claim to.

CHASE, lol

Chase8400

03-26-2009, 05:31 PM

"Who can handle Vitali in the historical pantheon?" is an implicit question of who is better: Vitali or X. I think my response is very logical since practically ever reason given for picking Vitali starts with "Vitali is much bigger": Hence my response that unlike some I'm not a size whore. Who looks foolish? The person who asks "who's bigger?" or the person who asks "who's better?"? Hmmm? Unless, of course, you are someone who subscribes to the tenent that "bigger equals better" in which case that makes you a "size whore" ie. someone who is size obsessed and uses it as their primary criterion in picking matchups.

Poet

No, the title pretty much speaks for itself. 'Who can handle Vitali' , not: 'Who is better than Vitali'. There's no underlying message. Don't defend your lackadistical response to my post. Just take the ass whippin' and move on.

The_Bringer

03-26-2009, 05:37 PM

I actually am a big Dempsey fan and have a fairly close relation to him that I don't care to duscuss at this time. While Jack had a great record against larger fighters, none of them were anywhere near Klitschko's caliber. They were very slow clubbers who who were nowhere near as coordinated and certainly didn't possess a defense like Vitali. Dempsey was a killer puncher P4P but is simply too one dimentional and small to beat VK. He would no doubt be knocked out.

You probably think I'm just a blinded biased idiot because Vitali is in my sig, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Sorry to bust a bubble about Dempsey since it appears that we both love the guy, but that is the truth coming in the form of my boxing-savy opinion.

While I respect your opinion, my opinion remains unchanged.

I think Dempsey had the power, the skill, and the know-how to work a giant like Vitali over. Granted Fulton and Willard were rather sluggish, but Vitali isn't exactly greased lightning in there either. And he slows down even more if you can work him to the body well.

Which is why I also pegged Frazier to work him over.

Chase8400

03-26-2009, 05:41 PM

While I respect your opinion, my opinion remains unchanged.

I think Dempsey had the power, the skill, and the know-how to work a giant like Vitali over. Granted Fulton and Willard were rather sluggish, but Vitali isn't exactly greased lightning in there either. And he slows down even more if you can work him to the body well.

Which is why I also pegged Frazier to work him over.

Hey , yo.

I can definitely respect that reponse.

We will never know for sure so our opinions are all we have. I can certainly see why you would harvest yours. Dempsey was one hell of a fighter.

Keep up the objective posting. :usa1:

poet682006

03-26-2009, 05:43 PM

Let me start by saying , hahahahaha, cute stuff from you. (no serious disrespect)

Dicky Ryan(first guy to beat Bryan Neilson)
Herbie Hyde
Chris Byrd(Yes he beat him. Don't be stupid)
Orlin Norris
Larry Donald
Kirk Johnson
Corrie Sanders(in his prime enough to beat Wladimir)
Danny Williams
Sam Peter
Juan Gomez(depends on who you as before or after the fight)

Is that enough for you?

Aside from Byrd, who was as featherfisted a Heavyweight as I've ever seen, do you know what all the rest of those fighters had in common? They ALL stunk and only the sad state of the Heavyweight division in recent years enabled them to be considered "contenders".

Being good and in their prime is subject to opinion though. I'm not too sure you are grasping that, however.

Opinions are like *******s: The wrong people have them and they're all full of shlt.

He was 37. Same age as calzaghe for the Jones fight. Who was also from the UK and was also dominant in his class and was also NOT past his prime. This is opinion, except you have nothing but your opinion backing you up.

Aside from the fact that Calzaghe's country of origin is irrelivent, Calzaghe was most certainly NOT still in his prime. Ask any boxing historian or any other boxing expert for that matter whether a 37 year old fighter is still in his prime and aside from the odd kook they will tell you "NO". It's common sense: Athletes are NOT as good at 37 as they are at 27.

Fair enough. Why don't you PROVE to me that Lennox was past his best when he faced Vitali so that I may KNOW.

CHASE, lol

Apart from common sense that one is not in-prime at 37 you could try watching some of Lennox's later fights and comparing them to, say, the Lennox that dismantled Michael Grant.

Poet

poet682006

03-26-2009, 05:46 PM

No, the title pretty much speaks for itself. 'Who can handle Vitali' , not: 'Who is better than Vitali'. There's no underlying message. Don't defend your lackadistical response to my post. Just take the ass whippin' and move on.

Maybe some remedial English lessons may help your lack of comprehension to the implications of your own posts. Just take your *****-slapping and move on.

Poet

The_Bringer

03-26-2009, 05:51 PM

And here I thought you guys in the History section were above verbal abuse! :lol1:

poet682006

03-26-2009, 05:53 PM

And here I thought you guys in the History section were above verbal abuse! :lol1:

Who? Me? LOL!

Poet

The_Bringer

03-26-2009, 06:03 PM

Who? Me? LOL!

Poet

Everyone.

I've always been a fan of this section, but I pretty much kept out of the conversations because I'm relatively young despite being a fan of the sport for 10 years.

I'm versed on some of the older fighters, but not others. It's hard to find good quality videos, you know?

But everytime I browsed I always saw people peacefully disagreeing. I had no idea you guys like to sling **** from time to time. :lol1:

I also always wondered this : How do you keep the NSB crowd at bay? I figured most of those morons would've flooded tihs place by now and done the revisionist historian thing.

BattlingNelson

03-26-2009, 06:07 PM

And here I thought you guys in the History section were above verbal abuse! :lol1:
The *****slapping in here is often slightly more sophisticated than on NSB.

But sometimes you might think you were in the dome.....

you're a biased idiot...marciao, dempsey and tunney beat vitali, but evander doesnt? wtf is your problem with evander? you're a ****ing retard

poet682006

03-26-2009, 06:07 PM

Everyone.

I've always been a fan of this section, but I pretty much kept out of the conversations because I'm relatively young despite being a fan of the sport for 10 years.

I'm versed on some of the older fighters, but not others. It's hard to find good quality videos, you know?

But everytime I browsed I always saw people peacefully disagreeing. I had no idea you guys like to sling **** from time to time. :lol1:

I also always wondered this : How do you keep the NSB crowd at bay? I figured most of those morons would've flooded tihs place by now and done the revisionist historian thing.

Most of the NSB posters don't stand a chance against us LOL! I've slapped a few around in my time. I go over there to post once in a while too. Some of them hate me for it.

Poet

The_Bringer

03-26-2009, 06:12 PM

Kudos to you guys.

This seems like a nice place to get comfy in.

LOL @ "What's your problem with Evander!?!". :lol1:

Boogie Nights

03-26-2009, 06:15 PM

Most of the NSB posters don't stand a chance against us LOL! I've slapped a few around in my time. I go over there to post once in a while too. Some of them hate me for it.

Poetthe only thing you ever slapped in your life was your tiny little 2 inch worm when you were applying vaseline on it.

poet682006

03-26-2009, 06:15 PM

Kudos to you guys.

This seems like a nice place to get comfy in.

LOL @ "What's your problem with Evander!?!". :lol1:

Yeah, LRR has issues with lots of fighters mostly those of the wrong pigmentation. He's a joke in my book and I ignored him long ago.

Poet

The_Bringer

03-26-2009, 06:20 PM

Yeah, LRR has issues with lots of fighters mostly those of the wrong pigmentation. He's a joke in my book and I ignored him long ago.

Poet

I haven't see many posts by him, but I already know he clearly doesn't like Ali very much. :lol1:

RODHOOK

03-26-2009, 07:09 PM

Ali hands down speed,brains,stamina would do the trick and quite easily i will add.
Big george before the ali fight would scare vitali ****less,big ko.
Lewis beat him once and would have again.
One might laugh but gerry cooney had the size and strength.it would be a left hook to the head and body that would paralize the giant.
Possibly larry holmes picking him apart with jabs,again stamina to go 15
rounds would make a difference.a slim chance for ernie shavers to land a right hand i've never seen anyone yet who hit harder
alot of other guys on your list were more talented but lacked the size.

poet682006

03-26-2009, 07:12 PM

I haven't see many posts by him, but I already know he clearly doesn't like Ali very much. :lol1:

Yeah, his life mission seems to be to discredit Ali and recently he's added Jack Johnson to his hit list.

Poet

LondonRingRules

03-27-2009, 06:40 AM

Yeah, his life mission seems to be to discredit Ali and recently he's added Jack Johnson to his hit list.

Poet

** My, my, BS's resident 8th grade poet has been busy as a sting like a bee with his new little 6th grade float like a butterfly friend doing the monumental of task if ignoring me with his umpteenth post about me.

Brilliant stuff young lads, gots to raise the official Boxing Scene flag in your honour........:bsflag

Chase8400

03-27-2009, 02:12 PM

Maybe some remedial English lessons may help your lack of comprehension to the implications of your own posts. Just take your *****-slapping and move on.

Poet

Lol, nice goin basically repeating myself and acting as if you have some sense. Good try however, I see you didn't take your owning very well.

Try doing as I asked and proving that Lennox was not his best when he fought Vitali. That's right you can't because it CANNOT be proven because it's opinion depending on who you ask at any givin' time. You are not comprehending the point, yet you have the nerve to tell me I need english lessons.Lol. I know it's hard being schooled by a 29 year old with you being supposedly older and wiser @ 40, but just as some fighters hit their primes earlier than others,unlike B-hop, I too have surpassed your intelligence a long time ago. Blame it on nature and chalk this up to missfortune of speaking your ignorance in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Chase>I'm original, I needed this laugh too. Peace :friday:

paul750

03-27-2009, 02:42 PM

LondonRingRules

03-27-2009, 06:12 PM

No doubt Klitschko is tough to beat. Here's the thing though: if you're an employer going over people's resumes, you're going to look for who's best qualified and who is experienced. There are no could haves, should haves or capable ofs. Just facts. There is no possible way of proving who Vitali would beat, and who he wouldn't. What the pro Vitali people need to understand is the accusation of Vitali not proving himself is legitimate. The Lewis fight can be discussed until we're all pensioners, but the fact is Klitschko's best 'win' is a loss. A loss against a very good champion, but a champion about to retire. It just doesn't look THAT impressive when talking about his credentials and how he'd fare against these past champions.

** Vitali lost a great fight against a more experienced champ coming off the best two fights of his career and widely acclaimed as one of the best ever. Lewis had no timetable of retirement and seemingly could've coasted for some time, except that Vitali was his mandatory.

Why would Lewis retire in advance of the WBC threatening him with strippage knowing that would make him the only champion in history to give up all 3 belts rather than face his mandatory? Makes it appear that Lewis arguably is finally driven by Vitali into retirement.

Vitali needs to be compared to his era, of which Lewis ruled early in his career. Remember when both the Klitschkos had difficulty securing fights as did Byrd, the top 3 challengers to Lewis? Remember, Lewis sold WBA and then IBF to King rather than face Byrd and Ruiz. Ruiz the two time WBA champ and still contending.

OK, Lewis won the fight fair and square, but his mistake was in telling Vitali he would rematch him and then make him run thru a public series of hoops with medical staff and delay the thing so long the WBC had to give him a deadline.

In comparing Vitali to Lewis, he lacks the two top names on Lewis record, Holy and Tyson. Only Holy was anything near prime. Tyson was a shell and everyone knew if Lewis could withstand the first few rounds it was going to be an easy fight. Vitali beats the usual line of of contenders, the only difference in that they tend to be much larger than other era contender types. The only two fighters he loses to are two era finest, Byrd and Lewis. Byrd is uninterested in the rematch, rightfully so remembering he was being shut out on the cards. Hmmmm, ring a bell here?

Has there ever been a fighter in history who so thoroughly dominated the scoring with dominant offense and defense and has one of the highest punch connect % in history, if not the best? Plus holds the KO% record? Has there ever been a fighter who took off four years and comes back straight away to put on a more dominant performance against a top prime era contender and champion in Peter?

What Vitali lacks, he more than makes up. There is an obvious racism in the support and the criticism of both the Klitschkos. Wlad has a record more similar to Lewis and recieves worse criticism. Vitali never lost to a McCall or a Rahman. Even the supposedly glass chinned Wlad was never one punched like that.

Folks are upset because the whole of the world has changed in just a decade or so. After 100+ yrs of domination, Americans can barely field contenders in any division save a few exceptions, and it's worse in the heavyweight division. Not a single American in the Ring top 10. It's gotten so bad that lately, non Americans are dropping out of the Ring ratings to be replaced by other non Americans!

I've heard every excuse in the books save the bottom line. Americans have lost it and other countries have picked it up. It is what it is, and remember, there's 3 billion Asians and close to a billion Africans who are locked out of boxing because of culture and the politics of development.

Vitali's best win is his career, and at age 37, most would pick him to beat any 37 yr old heavy in history. Even Big George was just wakening from hibernation at age 37. Eventually Vitali gets beat again and eventually he retires, but the pity is that too many of you have missed out enjoying what will go down as a storied heavy era, one the Kbros seized from King much like Tyson did.

Maybe not as exciting as Tyson, but nobody ever was.

JAB5239

03-28-2009, 05:15 AM

Try doing as I asked and proving that Lennox was not his best when he fought Vitali. That's right you can't because it CANNOT be proven because it's opinion depending on who you ask at any givin' time.

I would respectfully argue Lennox wasn't at his best for that fight. After 15 years and 44 fights as a pro, almost 38 years old and coming in at the heaviest weight he ever fought its hard to imagine that was the best version of Lewis. The last time he came in over the 250 mark he was knocked out by Rahman. He was also sucking wind by the 4th round. It may be opinion, but I believe my opinion has merit.

1SILVA

03-28-2009, 08:20 AM

BattlingNelson

03-28-2009, 08:28 AM

Great point. Remember also that Lennox was supposed to fight Kirk Johnson and Klitschko was his replacement. Lennox trained to fight Johnson, and in fact had taken Johnson so seriously that he seemed not to have skipped any meals. I believe his performance in this fight convinced Lennox that he was no longer a top flight fighter, hence his decision to retire. He also had lost the hunger to fight again. The lennox that destroyed Rahman and Ruddock would defeat Klitschco
What's your take on Vitali's preperations then? He was a late replacement and wasn't in training for a worldchampionship fight as Lewis was. Do you think he was prepared?

LondonRingRules

03-28-2009, 08:54 AM

I would respectfully argue Lennox wasn't at his best for that fight. After 15 years and 44 fights as a pro, almost 38 years old and coming in at the heaviest weight he ever fought its hard to imagine that was the best version of Lewis. The last time he came in over the 250 mark he was knocked out by Rahman. He was also sucking wind by the 4th round. It may be opinion, but I believe my opinion has merit.

** Here's the flaw in that thinking: The last time Lewis fought in the 230s, 238 against McCall, he was KOed.

Are we to discount the dozen or so fights in the 230 and claim he was just lucky to win being so out of shape like is claimed against Vitali?

He was 250 for Botha, and 249 against Tua two fights before coming in at 254 against Rahman. Need I remind anyone that with a fighter this size, he could break wind and lose 4 lbs? Moreover, heavies often don't bother to weigh stripped down so weights are not always accurate.

Lewis incrementally increases his fight weight over time like just about every heavy who's ever lived, indeed, most fighters who've ever lived. Because of the Klitchko's accension along with Byrd and Ruiz, Lewis saw a series of very tough fights late in his career, so why bother? He was always a bit lazy in the ring, always seemingly doing just enough to confer points advantage unless someone pressed him and made him slug it out.

It's a fact he had a minimum 8 week training camp. Early against Vitali, Lewis is waving in the wind on weak legs. Stamina had very little to do with it. Lewis, and everyone who ever stepped in against Vitali as it turns out, struggles with his timing and his style. Should this be a surprise anymore?

Maybe it wasn't the best Lewis, but I don't see how it could be the worst Lewis when he showed enough guts and stamina to get back into the fight after being barely able to sit on his stool without falling over. Couldn't have done that without being in at least decent shape with a good camp.

Maybe Lewis did indeed approach "the wall" where a fighter doesn't have it any more like Popkins against SuperJoe, but look at Poppy's masterclass against Pavlik? Was everyone claiming Poppy was overweight from his prime and in poor shape against Joe?

No, of course not, he's American and walks on water according to supporters.

Chase8400

03-28-2009, 01:42 PM

** Here's the flaw in that thinking: The last time Lewis fought in the 230s, 238 against McCall, he was KOed.

Are we to discount the dozen or so fights in the 230 and claim he was just lucky to win being so out of shape like is claimed against Vitali?

He was 250 for Botha, and 249 against Tua two fights before coming in at 254 against Rahman. Need I remind anyone that with a fighter this size, he could break wind and lose 4 lbs? Moreover, heavies often don't bother to weigh stripped down so weights are not always accurate.

Lewis incrementally increases his fight weight over time like just about every heavy who's ever lived, indeed, most fighters who've ever lived. Because of the Klitchko's accension along with Byrd and Ruiz, Lewis saw a series of very tough fights late in his career, so why bother? He was always a bit lazy in the ring, always seemingly doing just enough to confer points advantage unless someone pressed him and made him slug it out.

It's a fact he had a minimum 8 week training camp. Early against Vitali, Lewis is waving in the wind on weak legs. Stamina had very little to do with it. Lewis, and everyone who ever stepped in against Vitali as it turns out, struggles with his timing and his style. Should this be a surprise anymore?

Maybe it wasn't the best Lewis, but I don't see how it could be the worst Lewis when he showed enough guts and stamina to get back into the fight after being barely able to sit on his stool without falling over. Couldn't have done that without being in at least decent shape with a good camp.

Maybe Lewis did indeed approach "the wall" where a fighter doesn't have it any more like Popkins against SuperJoe, but look at Poppy's masterclass against Pavlik? Was everyone claiming Poppy was overweight from his prime and in poor shape against Joe?

No, of course not, he's American and walks on water according to supporters.

Outstanding post. Right on point.

What the people who claim that Lennox was obviously faded when he faced Vitali don't seem to comprehend is that it was obvious by looking at the fight that he was still throwing punches just fine and was looking as sharp as ever. How could he not be to open up those cuts on VK's face? There's always a way to discredit the Klitschko's and it seems like it's a neccesity on here anytime they are brought up.

I gotta believe that if both men came in that fight fully prepared , ready to face one another, Vitali would have won the fight. I have to admitt he lost due to cuts, but that doesn't change the fact that he was winning the fight at the time of stoppage and the fans present were almost all for Vitali at the conclusion, etc.... The fans and respect Vitali earned are what told the real story.

poet682006

03-28-2009, 02:20 PM

Outstanding post. Right on point.

Ah! I see your taking time out of your busy schedual of sucking-off the Klitschkos to perform a like service on LRR: Easily the biggest idiot on Boxing Scene.

What the people who claim that Lennox was obviously faded when he faced Vitali don't seem to comprehend is that it was obvious by looking at the fight that he was still throwing punches just fine and was looking as sharp as ever.

Maybe to someone who doesn't know what he's seeing and watches boxing through the eyes of a fan-boi.

How could he not be to open up those cuts on VK's face?

Hmmm. Maybe because Vitali is bleeder in the mold of Jerry Quarry?

There's always a way to discredit the Klitschko's and it seems like it's a neccesity on here anytime they are brought up.

In the case of Wlad there's no need as he's already discredited himself (Ross Purrity anyone?)

I gotta believe that if both men came in that fight fully prepared , ready to face one another, Vitali would have won the fight.

Ah yes! Substituting "belief" for knowledge again! Mayhap the angels will also reveal to you how many Klitschko's may prance on the head of a pin.

I have to admitt he lost due to cuts, but that doesn't change the fact that he was winning the fight at the time of stoppage and the fans present were almost all for Vitali at the conclusion, etc.... The fans and respect Vitali earned are what told the real story.

Oh yes, being up 4 round to 2 and having lost the last 2 rounds is a GREAT indicator that Vitali was going to dominate the second half of the fight. Must be more of that "faith" you have in abundance: Too bad you've chosen to believe in things rather knowing things.

Poet

BattlingNelson

03-28-2009, 02:28 PM

Ah! I see your taking time out of your busy schedual of sucking-off the Klitschkos to perform a like service on LRR: Easily the biggest idiot on Boxing Scene.

Maybe to someone who doesn't know what he's seeing and watches boxing through the eyes of a fan-boi.

Hmmm. Maybe because Vitali is bleeder in the mold of Jerry Quarry?

In the case of Wlad there's no need as he's already discredited himself (Ross Purrity anyone?)

Ah yes! Substituting "belief" for knowledge again! Mayhap the angels will also reveal to you how many Klitschko's may prance on the head of a pin.

Oh yes, being up 4 round to 2 and having lost the last 2 rounds is a GREAT indicator that Vitali was going to dominate the second half of the fight. Must be more of that "faith" you have in abundance: Too bad you've chosen to believe in things rather knowing things.

Poet
The fact that Lewis didn't give Vitali the rematch he had promised speaks volumes to me. Compare Lewis to Louis for a moment, Louis, as you know, set the Walcott matter straight in the second meeting. Lewis chose the retirement option likely to protect himself. If Lewis himself felt that he was out of shape for the Vitali fight then why not give the guy a rematch? Prepare properly and then whoop his ass?

poet682006

03-28-2009, 02:40 PM

The fact that Lewis didn't give Vitali the rematch he had promised speaks volumes to me. Compare Lewis to Louis for a moment, Louis, as you know, set the Walcott matter straight in the second meeting. Lewis chose the retirement option likely to protect himself. If Lewis himself felt that he was out of shape for the Vitali fight then why not give the guy a rematch? Prepare properly and then whoop his ass?

I would say it was more a case of Lewis, at 38 and a millionare, couldn't be arsed to put that kind of effort in anymore. Lewis was never passionate about the fight game and really could care less legacy wise if he left any loose ends hanging. He was never the type to fight on because he just couldn't let go like so many others have been. I also doubt that Lennox thought he had anything left to prove. While serious fight fans may argue differently Lennox rarely if ever let those types of arguments enter into his considerations.

Poet

BattlingNelson

03-28-2009, 02:58 PM

I would say it was more a case of Lewis, at 38 and a millionare, couldn't be arsed to put that kind of effort in anymore. Lewis was never passionate about the fight game and really could care less legacy wise if he left any loose ends hanging. He was never the type to fight on because he just couldn't let go like so many others have been. I also doubt that Lennox thought he had anything left to prove. While serious fight fans may argue differently Lennox rarely if ever let those types of arguments enter into his considerations.

Poet
I respect Lewis for having those opinions for sure. And I agree that it was also a parameter in his decisionmaking. Still it hurts his legacy to leave the game with a big unanswered question like that. Personally I don't think Lewis at 35+ could beat Vitali sans cuts. To me he got lucky.

poet682006

03-28-2009, 03:10 PM

I respect Lewis for having those opinions for sure. And I agree that it was also a parameter in his decisionmaking. Still it hurts his legacy to leave the game with a big unanswered question like that. Personally I don't think Lewis at 35+ could beat Vitali sans cuts. To me he got lucky.

I agree it hurts his legacy and I would have liked Lennox to have had more of Joe Louis' pride in his legacy. Unanswered questions never seemed to have unduly troubled Lennox though.

In his fight against Vitali Lennox essentially gave away the first four rounds. He won the last two, however, and it certainly seemed to me he had turned the fight at that point so I don't think it follows that he had to have the cut to win. There were six more rounds to go so Vitali didn't have an insurmountable lead and Lennox was inflicting enough damage that a late stoppage in Lewis' favor was a very real possibility.

Poet

BattlingNelson

03-28-2009, 03:16 PM

I agree it hurts his legacy and I would have liked Lennox to have had more of Joe Louis' pride in his legacy. Unanswered questions never seemed to have unduly troubled Lennox though.

In his fight against Vitali Lennox essentially gave away the first four rounds. He won the last two, however, and it certainly seemed to me he had turned the fight at that point so I don't think it follows that he had to have the cut to win. There were six more rounds to go so Vitali didn't have an insurmountable lead and Lennox was inflicting enough damage that a late stoppage in Lewis' favor was a very real possibility.

Poet
I guess we'll have to disagree on the projected outcome without the cuts. The Lewis that returned to his corner after the last round was completely spent. He might have landed some big shots on Vitali in the round but he looked absolutely wasted whereas Vitali looked comparatively fresh. I'm convinced that Lewis would have gassed like the Hindenburg for an inside the distance loss.

Esquire Dale

03-28-2009, 03:26 PM

Vitali will always be known as a good heavyweight.

In league with greats like Lennox Lewis, Ali, Tyson, Foreman? I don't think so. Vitali is a boring fighter and a boring guy.

He has a decent record don't get me wrong. But he's not made of the right stuff to be a legend. Same with his brother, but his brother sucks anyway compared to Vitali.

paul750

03-28-2009, 03:33 PM

Getting your face cut to shreds and being stopped because of it is just as legitimate as being knocked out. I can't understand why some people don't seem to want to try and understand that. How many times have we watched a boxer winning on the cards and then being knocked out? What is the difference between that and being cut? Lewis was actually starting to do better anyway, and it was only 4-2 in rounds.

Esquire Dale

03-28-2009, 03:36 PM

^ Absolutley. I think everyone realises a non-headbutt cut stoppage is classed as undisputed win. It's only the people who refuse to accept the truth.

Would people have liked Vitali to continue the fight and have his face ripped to pieces prior to getting knocked out?

BattlingNelson

03-28-2009, 03:53 PM

zelenoff_chimp

03-28-2009, 06:02 PM

..... the smallish guys such as Dempsey..... just don't stand a chance. Vitali has the size advantage of Lennox Lewis, the chin of Marciano.....The chin of Marciano? No. He dosn't have the Rocks' Balls either. and the punch placement/accuracy of Joe Lewis. No, he dosn't. Louis threw 4 and 5 punch combinations with pin point accuracy.

His physical advantages cannot be ignored when placing him against the ATG's. OK. But neither can his basic boxing skills, his lack of an inside game, lack of defensive skills, no left hook to speak of, his relatively slow hands, and yes, quitting aganst Chris Byrd.

1SILVA

03-28-2009, 07:53 PM

What's your take on Vitali's preperations then? He was a late replacement and wasn't in training for a worldchampionship fight as Lewis was. Do you think he was prepared?

I don't think he was as prepared as he would have liked to have been, but he seemed much more prepared than Lewis did. Lewis did not take Johnson seriously and because of his lack of training almost got ko'd by Vitali. He pulled out the win, and in my opinion, saw that he no longer was a world clas fighter and decided to retire. No amount of money was going to get him to come back, and for that Lennox should be applauded

mickyward5656

03-28-2009, 08:23 PM

liston and foreman imo would KO klitschko early in the fight easy....

Marlin26

03-29-2009, 12:54 AM

JAB5239

03-29-2009, 05:23 AM

** Here's the flaw in that thinking: The last time Lewis fought in the 230s, 238 against McCall, he was KOed.

Are we to discount the dozen or so fights in the 230 and claim he was just lucky to win being so out of shape like is claimed against Vitali?

Against McCall Lewis was out boxing him easily till getting caught

Difference is, Lewis was almost 38 for this fight. If he took him lightly or didn't train properly thats on him. But this certainly wasn't the best Lewis we saw in the ring.

He was 250 for Botha, and 249 against Tua two fights before coming in at 254 against Rahman. Need I remind anyone that with a fighter this size, he could break wind and lose 4 lbs? Moreover, heavies often don't bother to weigh stripped down so weights are not always accurate.

He was seven pounds lighter for the Rahman rematch and the difference was obvious. Both Tua and Botha were at huge disadvantages in skill and size. Fighting someone of Vitali's dimensions and skill a fighter has to be at his best. How can anyone think Lennox was in top form when he was sucking wind so early and at his highest weight? Doesn't make sense to me.

Lewis incrementally increases his fight weight over time like just about every heavy who's ever lived, indeed, most fighters who've ever lived. Because of the Klitchko's accension along with Byrd and Ruiz, Lewis saw a series of very tough fights late in his career, so why bother? He was always a bit lazy in the ring, always seemingly doing just enough to confer points advantage unless someone pressed him and made him slug it out.

The question here is why did Lewis have these tough fights later in his career? Bacause like almost every fighter in history his skills were diminishing with age.

It's a fact he had a minimum 8 week training camp. Early against Vitali, Lewis is waving in the wind on weak legs. Stamina had very little to do with it. Lewis, and everyone who ever stepped in against Vitali as it turns out, struggles with his timing and his style. Should this be a surprise anymore?

Stamina certainly played a part in it my friend, as well as not being able to pull the trigger the same way he could a few years before.

Maybe it wasn't the best Lewis, but I don't see how it could be the worst Lewis when he showed enough guts and stamina to get back into the fight after being barely able to sit on his stool without falling over. Couldn't have done that without being in at least decent shape with a good camp.

It may not have been the worse Lewis, but it wasn't the best and thats the point I was making to the post I originaly answered to. As far as gutting it out.....thats what great fighters do.

Maybe Lewis did indeed approach "the wall" where a fighter doesn't have it any more like Popkins against SuperJoe, but look at Poppy's masterclass against Pavlik? Was everyone claiming Poppy was overweight from his prime and in poor shape against Joe?

No, of course not, he's American and walks on water according to supporters.

Ahh, but Hopkins never had any history of ever being out of shape. On top of that he was part of a very, very low percentage of fighters to excell at an advanced aged.

KostyaTszyu44

03-29-2009, 05:37 AM

LondonRingRules

03-29-2009, 07:12 AM

Against McCall Lewis was out boxing him easily till getting caught

Difference is, Lewis was almost 38 for this fight. If he took him lightly or didn't train properly thats on him. But this certainly wasn't the best Lewis we saw in the ring.

He was seven pounds lighter for the Rahman rematch and the difference was obvious. Both Tua and Botha were at huge disadvantages in skill and size. Fighting someone of Vitali's dimensions and skill a fighter has to be at his best. How can anyone think Lennox was in top form when he was sucking wind so early and at his highest weight? Doesn't make sense to me.

The question here is why did Lewis have these tough fights later in his career? Bacause like almost every fighter in history his skills were diminishing with age.
.

** First off, most good fighters easily outbox McCall, but this was a 2nd rd KO loss, so a single round of 10-9 twice and 10-10 ain't a legit claim of "outboxing" anyone.

You've taken a single factor, weight, and placed it out of context. The rematch did not happen at altitude, nor did Lennox cut his training short to star in a movie. Remember, he was criticized for not acclimating at altitude which would've involved an extra week of training camp minimum.

Lewis didn't have tough fights later in his career unless you want to include the first Rahman fight. The really last tough fight was against Mercer 5 yrs previous. Oh, Briggs gave him a scare and forced him into a slug out that sees him literally out puffing the asthmatic Briggs, last seen corkscrewing himself into the canvas after missing a hook.

Here is the last round of the first Rahman fight, the 5th rd. Note the low pace by Lewis, the ease with which he is walking down Rahman, the accuracy and sharpness, and how disdainfully Lewis walked into and through Rahman's first right hand. Fatigue was not a factor in this bout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFJyWSXlSbg

Now, you could argue as the announcers note that Lewis was fighting at a reduced pace which left Rahman in the fight, but again, at altitude a fighter will not keep the same pace as at sea level whether or not he's in shape. Rahman was barely threw anything in the 5th, so was he out of shape now?

No, this was a case of Lewis feeling extremely comfortable in a fight he looked sharp in and got caught by the perfect punch. Of course Lewis could have been in better shape, but it seems more like overconfidence and a lack of focus did him in here.

We know Lewis didn't cut his training camp short for the Vitali date, nor was it held at altitude, nor was he distracted by a movie. The fight started at a higher pace against a bigger, stronger, more accurate fighter with Lewis being shipped more damage early. Note how Vitali is so gassed by his efforts in the 4th round when he allows Lewis to recover.

Lewis literally wobbles in a gentle breeze half way across the ring and into the ropes and Vitali could've have blown him over he had hadn't been so oxygen deprived himself. Vitali was used to an easier pace and had never found himself in this position before, a big strong HOFer fighting back with every ounce of his being.

We know Vitali wasn't scheduled on this card until 3 weeks from the date unlike Lewis who already had 5 weeks of training under his belt, so if Lewis did hit the wall at age 38 as I acknowleged possible, surely we have to admit this is offset by short preparation time Vitali had. Lewis had no problems whatsoever with pace against Tyson and Tua at 250lbs, but, again, those fights against smaller, less accurate, less active fighters than Vitali.

I'm not a "big" man, yet in the course of a normal day my weight often fluctuated 5 lbs back when I had a scale in the bathroom, so is it that at one point of the day I was in shape, and another point I am not?

Remember, these are big, huge men who can eat whatever they wish and wear whatever they want when they step up for the official weigh in, not two lighter division fighters cutting to the bone and then drying out to barely eke out the limit naked as jaybirds behind towels as Chavez Jr and Cuello did for their 154lb WBC Continental belt last night.

Both bang on the 154 limit, but what if one had stopped off at the all you can eat breakfast buffet on the way in?

I prefer to think this fight will be an epic classic much more appreciated by future generations that features the strengths and weaknesses of two great heavies turning on a twisted choice of the Fates, the Mother of All Cuts.

BattlingNelson

03-29-2009, 11:14 AM

of course you are you biased ****
How is stating an opinion based on facts as I see them being biased?

You're :crazy:

poet682006

03-29-2009, 01:24 PM

of course you are you biased ****

That's uncalled for. Nelson is a good poster who always brings thoughtful insight to his posts. He is NOT one of foolish fan-bois who make inane posts. He happens to disagree with me on Vitali - Lennox matchup; it's not the first time a good poster and myself disagreed on a subject without things becoming unpleasent. Save the vitriol for the fools, not quality posters like Nelson.

Poet

Hawkins

03-30-2009, 05:08 PM

LondonRingRules

04-04-2009, 12:59 AM

Mike Tyson, Jack Dempsey and Joe Frazier....

Stylistically, I think these guys would be best suited for someone of Vitali's size..especially Dempsey and Tyson. Their quickness and ability to get inside and go to war would have chopped him down. Frazier with his hard to hit style constantly working to get inside and hammer 'em the hook would also be able to do the job.

** Tyson in particular, the young professionally trained one, not the sick drugged up clown trained Tyson.

Frazier was easier to hit than Dempsey or Tyson, so he has the longest shot, but the thing is, those kinds of fighters are very rare as it takes a huge commitment to fitness and timing to make the style work, and then you have to have the natural attributes which few have.

Speaking of which, gonna have a little fun with the resident slappee whom I allow to post in my threads, but restricts me from slapping him in his own threads:

All Have rabid loons backing them that you'd just love to slap. Who has the worst?

Poet

** Thing is my little 8th grade friend, is you being the slappee, not the slapper.

Your little 8th grade desk keeps shrinking with you in it year after year. Is it the 9th grade girls that are scaring you? They keeping you talking like an immature 8th grader?

Infern0

04-04-2009, 01:01 AM

I think you would be surprised how Quickly Vitali crumbled, faced with A level prime opposition rather than the c- level fighters him and wlad have been fighting the last ten years.

LondonRingRules

04-04-2009, 01:11 AM

I think you would be surprised how Quickly Vitali crumbled, faced with A level prime opposition rather than the c- level fighters him and wlad have been fighting the last ten years.

** They can only fight those who will fight them, and now with titles more are willing.

I'd match their title defenses against Big Pants Larry Holmes any day of the week, and Ali's first set of defenses. Doubt Brian London or Marvis Frazier give either brother much to worry about.

kswizzy99

05-27-2009, 03:05 PM

kswizzy99

05-27-2009, 03:13 PM

I guess we'll have to disagree on the projected outcome without the cuts. The Lewis that returned to his corner after the last round was completely spent. He might have landed some big shots on Vitali in the round but he looked absolutely wasted whereas Vitali looked comparatively fresh. I'm convinced that Lewis would have gassed like the Hindenburg for an inside the distance loss.

as much as lewis looked out of shape in that fight, in the last round, Vitali looked even more gassed and wasted than Lewis.

Who knows what would have happened had the fight not been stopped(IMO would have been one of the best hw fights of all-time) but it sure looked like Vitali was not too far off from being dropped by Lewis.

portuge puncher

05-27-2009, 03:28 PM

foreman would knock em' out IMO,

Ali would win a desicion,

and tyson might just kill em.

BattlingNelson

05-27-2009, 03:30 PM

as much as lewis looked out of shape in that fight, in the last round, Vitali looked even more gassed and wasted than Lewis.

Who knows what would have happened had the fight not been stopped(IMO would have been one of the best hw fights of all-time) but it sure looked like Vitali was not too far off from being dropped by Lewis.
No question Vitali felt the pace as well. He took some massive uppercuts in the last round if I remember correctly. I just think that Lennox looked more wasted. Whatever. It's a damn shame when cuts is the deciding factor.

LondonRingRules

05-28-2009, 11:29 AM

The bolded are who I think would have beaten Vitali in their primes.
Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Larry Holmes-
James J. Jeffries
George Foreman-
Sonny Liston -
Joe Frazier -
Gene Tunney
Lennox Lewis-
Mike Tyson -
Evander Holyfield-
Sam Langford
Jersey Joe Walcott
Ezzard Charles
Harry Wills
James J. Corbett
Bob Fitzsimmons

** Don't really matter what you think. What can you support?

First off, Louis with a history of beating big tall men with no defeats to them, but also Dempsey, so 1 of 2 ain't bad.

Only big tall fighter Ali ever beat is Terrell and Foreman, both dwarfed by the Klitschkos who are massively stronger and more powerful than Terrell and who can box much better with similar levels of power to Foreman. Ali very uneven in his performance even at his so called prime. Best, a good pick. Worst, forget about it. No gifts in this analysis like he got in his stinkemup fights.

Holmes was outboxed by Cooney who's form and stamina fell apart in later rounds and finally folded without a punch landing on him. Cooney never beat a prime contender, an inferior version of the K bros. None of Holmes' competition would remotely bother the brothers as Holmes defended against weak setups mostly. Easy fare for the brothers.

Foremen, Liston, and Frazier present problems, but the one off physical phenom Liston will fold mentally fairly early, like on the intros, so I give George and Joe a chance, but prime versions of each have no history of beating big guys. Frazier did beat undefeated Mathis, but he was a pure boxer not trained for power or using his size and strength. Be some great fights there but the brothers probably too accurate for Joe and it's a matter of if George can adjust to them boxing him off the back foot and then moving in for their power shots. Knowing George it's gonna end up a pier 6 donnybrook for the ages, and he won all those types of matches, but the brothers bigger and stronger than the little guys he over powered.

Only big guy UnHoly beat was Baby Huey Bowe, a mental midget and Bowe only beat when he started doing all his training in the kitcheon.

So, that leaves Tyson and Lewis, both having chances, Tyson in particular with his prime style and team intact, the best chances of the lot. Lewis is as vulnerable against Wlad as vice versa. Vitali showed he could handle Lewis style on short notice and was a much better fighter after their bout. I'd favor Vitali as that cutthe worst in heavy title history, a fluke.

Two fighters I give outside shots is Tunney and Charles, two quick, smallish guys capable of boxing and moving. Probably they get beat, but with Wlad's here today, gone tomorrow stamina snafus, we don't know if he might pull another Cooney. I doubt it, but there is some history.

DeepSleep

05-28-2009, 01:32 PM

I cant speak for some of the older boxers as I haven't seen enough of them to make an educated guess as to what would happen but as for the rest of the heavyweight champs I think there are a few who could beat Vitali.

Prime Ali - Ali's movement would stifle Vitali who isn't the most fleet of foot. Ali would zoom in and out and peg Vitali who would not have the hand or foot speed to catch him.

Holmes - Vitali could use his massive frame to throw 1-2's at Holmes who couldn't use his jab as effectively as he normally does. Holmes has a tendency to keep his hands low which he can get away with against most people because his jab could keep people away from him and he could dictate the action but against Vitali he would not be able to due this.

Foreman - Foreman forces Vitali into a war. This could swing either way as Foreman could knock Vitali out just as easily as Viltai could knock Foreman out.

Frazier - Although he would give Vit a good run for his money I think he would eat too many 1-2's on his way in and get rocked and finished.
I also think he would have trouble landing his left hook on Vit when he finnaly gets inside since Vitali is so tall.

Lennox Lewis - In his Prime I think Lennox could outbox Vitali, he is faster and has a longer reach than Vitali. If Vitali lands a bomb though he could KO Lennox.

Tyson - He would swarm all over Vitali early but he wouldn't be able to KO Vitali and would end up losing his composure and getting tagged.

Holyfield - Puncher's chance as I don't think Vitali could knockout Evander but I'd gamble Vitali would win by wide decision as Holyfield would have trouble with Vitali's jab.

One of the problems with Vitali is that he hasn't had anyone good enough to push him hard. He has such an easy time with the competition he is given that it is tough to predict how he would look against another talented fighter.

BattlingNelson

05-28-2009, 01:57 PM

** Don't really matter what you think. What can you support?

First off, Louis with a history of beating big tall men with no defeats to them, but also Dempsey, so 1 of 2 ain't bad.

Only big tall fighter Ali ever beat is Terrell and Foreman, both dwarfed by the Klitschkos who are massively stronger and more powerful than Terrell and who can box much better with similar levels of power to Foreman. Ali very uneven in his performance even at his so called prime. Best, a good pick. Worst, forget about it. No gifts in this analysis like he got in his stinkemup fights.

Holmes was outboxed by Cooney who's form and stamina fell apart in later rounds and finally folded without a punch landing on him. Cooney never beat a prime contender, an inferior version of the K bros. None of Holmes' competition would remotely bother the brothers as Holmes defended against weak setups mostly. Easy fare for the brothers.

Foremen, Liston, and Frazier present problems, but the one off physical phenom Liston will fold mentally fairly early, like on the intros, so I give George and Joe a chance, but prime versions of each have no history of beating big guys. Frazier did beat undefeated Mathis, but he was a pure boxer not trained for power or using his size and strength. Be some great fights there but the brothers probably too accurate for Joe and it's a matter of if George can adjust to them boxing him off the back foot and then moving in for their power shots. Knowing George it's gonna end up a pier 6 donnybrook for the ages, and he won all those types of matches, but the brothers bigger and stronger than the little guys he over powered.

Only big guy UnHoly beat was Baby Huey Bowe, a mental midget and Bowe only beat when he started doing all his training in the kitcheon.

So, that leaves Tyson and Lewis, both having chances, Tyson in particular with his prime style and team intact, the best chances of the lot. Lewis is as vulnerable against Wlad as vice versa. Vitali showed he could handle Lewis style on short notice and was a much better fighter after their bout. I'd favor Vitali as that cutthe worst in heavy title history, a fluke.

Two fighters I give outside shots is Tunney and Charles, two quick, smallish guys capable of boxing and moving. Probably they get beat, but with Wlad's here today, gone tomorrow stamina snafus, we don't know if he might pull another Cooney. I doubt it, but there is some history.
I think you make a mistake in this post by looking at the match-ups from only one perspective.

You state that since Holmes was outboxed by Cooney (which I think is wrong) Holmes would lose to either klit since they are better than Cooney.

If you look at it from another perspective then the relevant question would be: Who has the klits fought that has movement, skills and jab that even remotely resembles Holmes? Answer: None. So by that logic Holmes is in for an easy night.

Arguments in that same exact fashion can be made for all the other fighters you mention. I hope you catch what I'm trying to say.

kswizzy99

05-28-2009, 04:33 PM

LondonRingRules

05-28-2009, 08:45 PM

I think you make a mistake in this post by looking at the match-ups from only one perspective.

You state that since Holmes was outboxed by Cooney (which I think is wrong) Holmes would lose to either klit since they are better than Cooney.

If you look at it from another perspective then the relevant question would be: Who has the klits fought that has movement, skills and jab that even remotely resembles Holmes? Answer: None. So by that logic Holmes is in for an easy night.

Arguments in that same exact fashion can be made for all the other fighters you mention. I hope you catch what I'm trying to say.

** I here to tell you, I've not only lived through the Larry era, but studied him in retrospect more fully, and the guy was padding out his career, even in his comeback. There was no chance whatsoever he had to win a title back though I got a chuckle at how much trouble he gave the overrated Holy.

Here is the scoring for Cooney at the stoppage. 113-111 | 113-111 | 115-109 Keep in mind that Cooney was deducted at least 3 points for low blows. Without the penalties, Cooney was officially winning by at least 114-113, 114-113, 112-115. Save for the flash KD, Holmes barely touched Cooney until rd 12, and not that much.

Holmes "movement" may have been OK in his 20s, but he was pretty much the plodder for most of his title fights which is what he's touted for. His jab top shelf, but his skills were only good. No headmovement, no left hook. Little body work. Average inside skills bolstered by a first rate uppercut. Good grappling instincts. Game was 75% was jab, 15% grab, 10% rights, his strong points.

Vitali beat excellent boxer/punchers Larry Donald and Kirk Johnson whom you could plug into Larry's schedule starting with Norton on his last legs and they could march through Larry's comp with less difficulty than Larry often had. They had some size on Larry as well. Vitali has been the only fighter to stop them in their careers.

Getting back to movement, prime Byrd quicker of hand and foot and much more elusive than upright Larry and Vitali dominated Byrd until the point of his injury. Not only does Vitali have a 94% KO ratio, but that's about the same percent of rounds that he wins, always near a shutout on the cards.

Wlad beat Byrd twice, barely dropping a round, and beat a trickier, bigger, stronger southpaw boxer in Thompson, and undefeated Iggy too. Early on he beat Axel Shultz who many thought outboxed Foreman for his title. Wlad didn't just beat these guys, he KTFO all but Iggy after widely outscoring them.

In fact, the hurdle Larry has to overcome is not only size, strength, and power, but the fact that the brothers are boxers first who happen to be some of the most accurate punchers in history.

Larry had a chance to prove himself early on, but he never attempted unification in a rich era of talent. The WBA matches always had more talent in the ring than in Larry's title matches. Something missing in the guy who has the most massive inferiority complex I've ever seen in boxing. That some do think he's a great fighter not nearly enough for him. He knows deep down he should've pushed for better defenses and Spoon and Williams deserved near immediate rematches.

If Larry were fighting today, he'd still be part of the King stable and WBA merry go round with Ruiz/Holy/Niko, and Chagaev.

So it becomes my sad duty as the bearer of bad news to set the Holmes record straight. Heavyweight boxing has dramatically changed starting with the rise of Lewis. Tyson can be seen as the last of the old school heavies, the perfect fulcrum to the new era. The new heavies are struggling to learn what works best in this era and the brothers have it figured out best of all.

Spartacus Sully

05-29-2009, 04:05 AM

Jim Jeffries come on constantly fighting out of the crouch he may not be able to hit due to lack of skill but i think vitali is going to have just as hard of a time. I mean you fight in a crouch vs taller people right and jeffries was almost as good in the crouch as dempsey. plus being the man that jim was i think he would be more then willing to take a few hits to make sure he got some in.

how many boxers did jeffries fight that were out boxers? i mean seeing that jeffries would sprint 100 yard intervals constantly whiel running 14 miles over 2 hours there is nothing that vitali could do to get away from him.

then you got strength, stamina, and chin Jeffries or vitali i think this should be obivious but maybe not.....

RightCross94

05-29-2009, 04:24 AM

** Don't really matter what you think. What can you support?

First off, Louis with a history of beating big tall men with no defeats to them, but also Dempsey, so 1 of 2 ain't bad.

Only big tall fighter Ali ever beat is Terrell and Foreman, both dwarfed by the Klitschkos who are massively stronger and more powerful than Terrell and who can box much better with similar levels of power to Foreman. Ali very uneven in his performance even at his so called prime. Best, a good pick. Worst, forget about it. No gifts in this analysis like he got in his stinkemup fights.

Holmes was outboxed by Cooney who's form and stamina fell apart in later rounds and finally folded without a punch landing on him. Cooney never beat a prime contender, an inferior version of the K bros. None of Holmes' competition would remotely bother the brothers as Holmes defended against weak setups mostly. Easy fare for the brothers.

Foremen, Liston, and Frazier present problems, but the one off physical phenom Liston will fold mentally fairly early, like on the intros, so I give George and Joe a chance, but prime versions of each have no history of beating big guys. Frazier did beat undefeated Mathis, but he was a pure boxer not trained for power or using his size and strength. Be some great fights there but the brothers probably too accurate for Joe and it's a matter of if George can adjust to them boxing him off the back foot and then moving in for their power shots. Knowing George it's gonna end up a pier 6 donnybrook for the ages, and he won all those types of matches, but the brothers bigger and stronger than the little guys he over powered.

Only big guy UnHoly beat was Baby Huey Bowe, a mental midget and Bowe only beat when he started doing all his training in the kitcheon.

So, that leaves Tyson and Lewis, both having chances, Tyson in particular with his prime style and team intact, the best chances of the lot. Lewis is as vulnerable against Wlad as vice versa. Vitali showed he could handle Lewis style on short notice and was a much better fighter after their bout. I'd favor Vitali as that cutthe worst in heavy title history, a fluke.

Two fighters I give outside shots is Tunney and Charles, two quick, smallish guys capable of boxing and moving. Probably they get beat, but with Wlad's here today, gone tomorrow stamina snafus, we don't know if he might pull another Cooney. I doubt it, but there is some history.

i have a question:

does anyone care what LRR says? At all?

Spartacus Sully

05-29-2009, 04:46 AM

I like to read what he has in the start of the thread. Hes able to put his opinions out at that point in time and they stay the same through the whole thread.

If you agree with his opinions then you have no reason to care any further as to what he has to say. though what people say to retort his comments are good reads but the 10 min reads afterwards that he posts just defend his point that he made in the beginning so why read it i mean the next post afterwards is a different argument so i assume he defends his original point.

It seems that the people that have a grudge against him or feel that his points are wrong are the people that care about what he says. perhaps they just hope he says something thats wrong and if they don't read what he says they wont know to point it out to him.

All in all if your not dealing with some one that constantly has something to say to defend their opinion this would probably be a 1 page thread. Not much information in a 1 page thread eh?

BattlingNelson

05-29-2009, 04:48 AM

i have a question:

does anyone care what LRR says? At all?
I do. I always enjoy reading his posts. You can agree or disagree with him but there's no denying that LRR knows a ton of boxing.

BattlingNelson

05-29-2009, 11:18 AM

** I here to tell you, I've not only lived through the Larry era, but studied him in retrospect more fully, and the guy was padding out his career, even in his comeback. There was no chance whatsoever he had to win a title back though I got a chuckle at how much trouble he gave the overrated Holy.

Here is the scoring for Cooney at the stoppage. 113-111 | 113-111 | 115-109 Keep in mind that Cooney was deducted at least 3 points for low blows. Without the penalties, Cooney was officially winning by at least 114-113, 114-113, 112-115. Save for the flash KD, Holmes barely touched Cooney until rd 12, and not that much.

Who knows how much the low blows took out of Holmes? They did have an effect that's for sure.

Holmes "movement" may have been OK in his 20s, but he was pretty much the plodder for most of his title fights which is what he's touted for. His jab top shelf, but his skills were only good. No headmovement, no left hook. Little body work. Average inside skills bolstered by a first rate uppercut. Good grappling instincts. Game was 75% was jab, 15% grab, 10% rights, his strong points.

Add a superchin and fantastic powers of recovery.

Vitali beat excellent boxer/punchers Larry Donald and Kirk Johnson whom you could plug into Larry's schedule starting with Norton on his last legs and they could march through Larry's comp with less difficulty than Larry often had. They had some size on Larry as well. Vitali has been the only fighter to stop them in their careers.

Both Johnson and Donald would IMO lose clearly to Holmes. I think you'd agree that there's a gulf in class and that to me makes your comparison less viable.

Getting back to movement, prime Byrd quicker of hand and foot and much more elusive than upright Larry and Vitali dominated Byrd until the point of his injury. Not only does Vitali have a 94% KO ratio, but that's about the same percent of rounds that he wins, always near a shutout on the cards.

Byrd couldn't crack an egg with his punch. Again Larry is far superiour.

Wlad beat Byrd twice, barely dropping a round, and beat a trickier, bigger, stronger southpaw boxer in Thompson, and undefeated Iggy too. Early on he beat Axel Shultz who many thought outboxed Foreman for his title. Wlad didn't just beat these guys, he KTFO all but Iggy after widely outscoring them.

In fact, the hurdle Larry has to overcome is not only size, strength, and power, but the fact that the brothers are boxers first who happen to be some of the most accurate punchers in history.

Of course they would provide a riddle for any champion in history. Larry just possesses some tools they've never seen before. Specifically the great jab, a reach advantage to complement it, determination and stamina. Vitali couldn't KO Byrd (who has an excellent chin) so what should indicate him stopping Holmes?

So it becomes my sad duty as the bearer of bad news to set the Holmes record straight. Heavyweight boxing has dramatically changed starting with the rise of Lewis. Tyson can be seen as the last of the old school heavies, the perfect fulcrum to the new era. The new heavies are struggling to learn what works best in this era and the brothers have it figured out best of all.
But is it a change for the better? There's noone with a great jab and stamina in this era other than the klit's themselves.

poet682006

05-29-2009, 12:43 PM

I do. I always enjoy reading his posts. You can agree or disagree with him but there's no denying that LRR knows a ton of boxing.

The problem is that everything he knows about boxing is dead wrong. Some people may be amused by the Village Idiot but most people with common sense tell the Village Idiot to shut up and sit down. My having LRR on ignore is the equivelant of telling the Village Idiot to shut up and sit down. The man simply has nothing of intelligence to offer in any of his posts.

Ever wonder why you don't see Hawkins posting on here anymore? It's because he got tired of dealing with LRR's stupidity and then watching established posters fawn over how "great" a poster LRR is. He may have at one time been a fine poster but if so that was a long time in the past: All he does now is spout crackpot garbage that leaves one wondering if he's ever watched a fight objectively in his life.

Poet

kswizzy99

05-29-2009, 01:05 PM

i have a question:

does anyone care what LRR says? At all?

yes, I respect his posts and insight even if I don't agree them. he is very analytical and delivers his point across very well.

fight_professor

05-30-2009, 06:39 PM

Every fighter has a weakness. Vitali is big, powerful but slow and mechanical. A fighter fleet of foot would cause him trouble like Bryd did. Ali destroys him in a 1 sided humiliation.

Joe Louis and Holmes easily too.

His size may cause issues for the smaller guys, Tyson, Frazier, Rock, Dempsey etc, but can Vitali survive a sustained body assault?

I'd back Mike, always ok against big guys, esp slow ones. His power would tell.

That said, its clear that on a who beats who listing, Vitali is up there.

Ivansmamma

05-30-2009, 08:01 PM

Ali, Lewis, Foreman, Liston, Holmes. Maybe Tyson. Not to many others. Vitali would destroy guys like Fraizer, Dempsey, Patterson, Marciano who are to small to handle the biggest guys of today.

CCobra

05-31-2009, 04:16 AM

Dempsey has a good shot of beating Vitali. Dempsey was 6’1 and weighed close to 200lbs but under modern training methods and whatnot a guy of his size could make the 200lbs limit easily. Dempsey has a history of beating bigger men such as Jess Willard who measures a massive 6’6 and 1 half. He had incredible size for a man of his era, matches with his weight of almost 245lbs and you have a big guy here. Dempsey also sparred with Bill Tate who weighed, at best, in the mid 240lbs also entered the ring measuring 6’6 and 1 half. Dempsey seemed to find it easier to slay giants due to his tricky style of fighting. His bobbing and weaving and his granite chin allowed him to avoid shots coming in and land some heavy shots coming in. If he had to take shots then he proved throughout his career that his chin was more then adequate enough to take any.

Dempsey made a career of beating bigger guys. His most important win is against the massive Willard and in terms of Boxing history; his most significant win is against Firpo who himself was almost 6’3 in size. He also beat Carl Morris on numerous occasions (I’ll have to check up his record to see just how many times) as well as Fulton who, if memory serves me right, was 6’6 himself. Dempsey fought men who were incredibly large for his era and would still be considered large fighters. These are guys who could stand up against Vitali and only give away an inch in height and 3 or 4lbs in weight. Dempsey slayed them and sparred with big men like Bill Tate (who has fought the likes of Langford, Wills, Gunboat Smith, Norfolk, John L. Johnson, Jeanette and also holds victories over some of them. Not to mention Dempsey fought Andre Anderson (6’4) to a no decision but was awarded the decision by the local papers. I think historically speaking Dempsey handled big men well simply because his style allowed him to handle those bigger men. The bob and weave style was most effective against bigger fighters because the troubles they have with a constantly moving target and it enables Dempsey to get inside and work Vitali.

Stylistically speaking Dempsey had a come forward style that can cause problems to Vitali. Dempsey could bang with both fists, is among the best body workers in Heavyweight history, had a granite chin and was a rugged fighter.

I also think several other fighters could defeat Klitschko from the list you mentioned and I will get around to posting my reasoning as soon as I can.

LondonRingRules

05-31-2009, 07:59 AM

Both Johnson and Donald would IMO lose clearly to Holmes. I think you'd agree that there's a gulf in class and that to me makes your comparison less viable.

...........Larry just possesses some tools they've never seen before. Specifically the great jab, a reach advantage to complement it, determination and stamina. Vitali couldn't KO Byrd (who has an excellent chin) so what should indicate him stopping Holmes?

But is it a change for the better? There's noone with a great jab and stamina in this era other than the klit's themselves.

** There's a gulf in class between Patterson and Johnson/Donald as well, or Fitz and Johnson/Donald, but the thing about class is it's subjectivity. Class may be Guns and Roses for you, and The Beatles for me.

Plug Johnson and Donald into Patterson/Holmes title comp, and who would give them more than a bother? You don't think they could handle defenses against Hurricane Jackson, Pete Rademacher, Roy Harris, Ocasio, 19-8 Weaver, Leon, Scott Frank and so on? Oh, I figure Liston and Spoon could give them a fair tussle, but when was a boxing match decided solely on class?

Success in life is as much about timing of birth and geography as anything. Where was the Holmes class through 77? When was it that people stood up and said, "Holmes has class?" Was Holmes win over Norton better than Donald's over Holy?

The only thing Holmes possesses that would give the brothers more than a bother is a sharp jab and a will to win. Did Norton's lack of boxing acumen and will to win cost him his title against Larry? Fitz against Jeffries?

Holmes against the brothers is a boxer vs boxer match up with Larry being from the oldtimer era and they being from a modern era. Different rules, conditions, and regulations that generally have not favored a fighter of Holmes' size. Holy of similar size and basic attributes fared poorly against the supersized heavies. As I noted, Larry officially was being outboxed by Cooney when you factor out the KD and points deductions. Many claim that Spoon and Williams outboxed him before Spinks got to him. Nobody has ever outboxed either brother. Vitali ahead on every card he contested, almost always near a shutout with two losses by extraordinary unrelated injury scenarios requiring major surgery. Nobody would dismiss the chance he could suffer an injury against Holmes, but would you bet on it?

As far as modern changes go, better or worse is personal preference. Does anyone really want to sit through 15 rds of Holmes/Cobb or Ali/Young?

Or perhaps you want to return to 8 oz gloves, same day weighins and round by round scoring? Or bare knucks and London Prize Ring Rules? Perhaps some do, but then some are moving to the UFC/MMA. Personal preferences, not better or worse.

As far as a jab and stamina goes, the Klitschkos receive some criticism on both fronts there. Niko has never lacked for stamina or a jab, but that's heresy in some camps to suggest he's anything but a clubfighter. JC Gomez and Tony Thompson have excellent jabs and stamina, but perhaps they don't count because they're lefties, which is another change in modern boxing. Do you want to go back to the time when lefties aren't allowed to make credible matches?

Better, or worse?

BennyST

05-31-2009, 09:09 AM

Unfortunately, young Bowe's management feared him being exposed against big sluggers, so I wouldn't qualify him as having any history of superiority over big men seeing how the only prime big man he met not only outboxed him easily, but beat the bejibberjabbers out of him and into retirement in what should have been his physical prime. Many close to him claimed he began showing signs of dementia around this time. Given the lack of significant comp prior to Golota save for the smallish Holy, I cannot support that this guy was in the class of the great champions who stalked and terrorized the division in the past.

You should try watching some of his fights from his prime until the fights with Golota before commenting on his career and his condition.

He was one of those unfortunate fighters that deteriorate very quickly well before the usual age, much like Vargas, Morales etc.

If you compare his first fight with Holyfield to any of his fights with Golota there is quite an amazing difference in, not only his physical conditioning and shape, but his overall skills, reflexes, speed, stamina, footwork....etc etc.

He was a very different fighter at that young age than when he fought Holyfield. Sad but true.

Bad Boy Dazza

05-31-2009, 10:23 AM

Maybe some remedial English lessons may help your lack of comprehension to the implications of your own posts. Just take your *****-slapping and move on.

Poet

Actually I agree with him. You're full of it.

Bad Boy Dazza

05-31-2009, 10:32 AM

I would say it was more a case of Lewis, at 38 and a millionare, couldn't be arsed to put that kind of effort in anymore. Lewis was never passionate about the fight game and really could care less legacy wise if he left any loose ends hanging. He was never the type to fight on because he just couldn't let go like so many others have been. I also doubt that Lennox thought he had anything left to prove. While serious fight fans may argue differently Lennox rarely if ever let those types of arguments enter into his considerations.

Poet

LAME excuse laden answer. Lewis cared a lot about his legacy.

res

05-31-2009, 01:04 PM

LAME excuse laden answer. Lewis cared a lot about his legacy.

I think the guy's point was his general legacy was already taken care of.

poet682006

05-31-2009, 02:22 PM

Actually I agree with him. You're full of it.

And you are the alt of which KlitLicker?

Poet

RightCross94

06-01-2009, 02:05 AM

LondonRingRules

06-01-2009, 07:13 AM

You should try watching some of his fights from his prime until the fights with Golota before commenting on his career and his condition.

He was one of those unfortunate fighters that deteriorate very quickly well before the usual age, much like Vargas, Morales etc.

If you compare his first fight with Holyfield to any of his fights with Golota there is quite an amazing difference in, not only his physical conditioning and shape, but his overall skills, reflexes, speed, stamina, footwork....etc etc.

He was a very different fighter at that young age than when he fought Holyfield. Sad but true.

** I've watched enough Bowe to understand he was a mentally limited fighter managed by a thug quite fortunate to come along as the overrated Holy was weakening.

I can give him credit for beating a still tough Holy and the undefeated Hide which elevates him above another fighter with similar physical gifts, Cooney, but otherwise his career at the top is very similar to Cooney, beating past prime contenders and usual journeymen coming up.

As Ali found against Cleveland Williams, it's easy to look like a million bucks when you're in the ring with a set up.

Bowe would have scant chance against Vitali. He'd have a puncher's chance against Wlad, but see what a clod Bowe resembled against the very limited JL Gonzales who had even less development than Bowe coming up the ladder and proved to no better than journey class.

So what if Bowe is diminished by the point of Golota. There was nothing wrong with him physically other than he didn't want to train. Golota is the better natural talent and just as diminished by mental impairments as Bowe, thus the two consecutive DQs.

It's telling how quickly the belts are lost by Bowe. All he had to do was stay in shape for 3 yrs and he could've racked up 6 average defenses and retired with more credibility instead of throwing his belt and career in the bin.

joseph5620

06-08-2009, 02:57 PM

[QUOTE=LondonRingRules;4952043]** OK, you made some good valid points about Vitali's style that few pick up on, yet fall short with the above.

Keep in mind that both the brothers were having as much trouble as Chris Byrd in making fights. Lewis wouldn't even mention them. They were the top 3challengers to Lewis at the close of the 90s opening up the new millennium. Maybe Wlad and Byrd not the top WBC rated challengers, but that's a different kettle of fish. I'm talking consensus boxrec/ring/and ********* type ratings.

Vitali was out 8 months as the WBC #1 contender waiting on Lewis to get off his pot. Lewis had an optional defense lined up against Kirk Johnson, but what he really wanted was the lucrative Tyson rematch which was going to be promoted by Tyson being on the undercard against Boswell. Tyson pulls out late, Vitali agrees to be his replacement hoping to promote his opportunity, then Johnson is hurt and pulls out, and with only a couple of weeks before the fight, Vitali agrees to what he feels is his only shot against Lewis who seems primed to retire without fighting him.

It's a fact for all you Jacks that Lewis had a full 2 month training camp and some additional training for a week or two a month before his official training camp. Yeah, he comes in at a career high, but had been gaining weight as all heavies do on a steady basis, and his six fights before, he'd averaged around 249-250 lbs, so 7 extra lbs is nothing for a man that size. That's about what my weight fluctuates as on a daily or weekly basis as a smaller man.

Yes, Lewis was entering that declining age, yet had pitched his two best masterclasses ever against Rahman in the rematch and Tyson with tons of plaudits. If anything, Vitali was the one disadvantaged with short notice on training and having to keep his schedule open in case the rumoured bout became reality. Sure, Lewis chose to be inactive for a year, and Vitali was forced out 8 months to hold on the the hints being dropped that Lewis might fight him soon.

That is false. Vitali was training for a fight with Cedric Bosell just as Lewis was training for Kirk Johnson. He was no more "short noticed" than Lewis was.

joseph5620

06-08-2009, 03:06 PM

[QUOTE=LondonRingRules;4952353]Joe Louis: Joe a history of beating huge men in Carnera, Buddy Baer who is Vitali sized, and Simon. Knocked em all out. Primo gives him a fine battle. Simon big, slow and clumsy, and Buddy gave away his height and reach by going inside like he was 5-10 instead of 6-6. Joe one of the few with a more than fair chance.

Muhammad Ali: Ali another one with a fair chance. No history of big men save Terrell and Foreman, a couple sizes below Vitali. Still, with Ali talent and movement, I don't give the comeback Ali much chance, the prime Ali is in the game.

The comeback Ali beat Foreman and Frazier but would have little chance against Vitali? lol interesting to say the least. I'll also ask you, who did Vitlali ever beat as good as Liston, Frazier, Foreman or even Norton? I ask because you seem to like downgrading and rewriting Ali's career(Mildenberg had Ali in trouble?) as I've seen you do many times before. Which is peculiar since you seem to be so impressed with Vitali's career when his biggest wins are over Corey Sanders and Gomez. And you can say whatever you want about the Lewis fight but Vitali lost to the worst version of Lennox Lewis who came in at 256 pounds. You give Vitali credit for that fight as of he won it.

joseph5620

06-08-2009, 03:21 PM

[QUOTE=LondonRingRules;5380754]** I here to tell you, I've not only lived through the Larry era, but studied him in retrospect more fully, and the guy was padding out his career, even in his comeback. There was no chance whatsoever he had to win a title back though I got a chuckle at how much trouble he gave the overrated Holy.

Here is the scoring for Cooney at the stoppage. 113-111 | 113-111 | 115-109 Keep in mind that Cooney was deducted at least 3 points for low blows. Without the penalties, Cooney was officially winning by at least 114-113, 114-113, 112-115. Save for the flash KD, Holmes barely touched Cooney until rd 12, and not that much.

You sure like rewriting history. Holmes had Cooney in serious trouble in round five and punished him with his jab and counter rights. Cooney's eye was a bloody mess at the end of the fight but Holmes "barely touched him" until round 12? Either you're blind or you see what you want to see. I believe the latter. And for you to say Cooney "outboxed Holmes" is disgracefully inaccurate. And that knockdown in round two was no "flash knockdown". it was a perfectly timed right hand on Cooney's chin and Cooney was hurt by it. You have an agenda here I see.

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joseph5620

06-08-2009, 03:34 PM

[QUOTE=LondonRingRules;5399732]** I've watched enough Bowe to understand he was a mentally limited fighter managed by a thug quite fortunate to come along as the overrated Holy was weakening.

I can give him credit for beating a still tough Holy and the undefeated Hide which elevates him above another fighter with similar physical gifts, Cooney, but otherwise his career at the top is very similar to Cooney, beating past prime contenders and usual journeymen coming up.

Bowe and Cooney were nowhere near alike in terms of skills or their career. What planet did you watch fighters on? Bowe was a big man who could fight inside. He also had power in both hands. Cooney was largely a one handed fighter who never beat a a legit top 10 contender in his entire career. He also had a shaky chin while Bowe had an excellent chin. No similarities whatsover. I think Bowe is overrated in some respects but he was a better fighter than Cooney and had a much better career. That's not even arguable to objective people who know boxing.

portuge puncher

06-08-2009, 04:36 PM

foreman would knock the **** out of em'

ali would find a way to outbox em'

tyson would knock the **** out of em'

LondonRingRules

06-09-2009, 07:00 AM

The comeback Ali beat Foreman and Frazier but would have little chance against Vitali? lol interesting to say the least. I'll also ask you, who did Vitlali ever beat as good as Liston, Frazier, Foreman or even Norton? I ask because you seem to like downgrading and rewriting Ali's career(Mildenberg had Ali in trouble?) as I've seen you do many times before. Which is peculiar since you seem to be so impressed with Vitali's career when his biggest wins are over Corey Sanders and Gomez. And you can say whatever you want about the Lewis fight but Vitali lost to the worst version of Lennox Lewis who came in at 256 pounds. You give Vitali credit for that fight as of he won it.[/I][/B]

** My dearest Joey, your confusion is bleeding all over the place.

Who did Ali ever beat as good as Liston going into Liston 1? Who did Leon ever beat as good as Ali going into Ali 1?

There is no rewriting of history save by fanboys who don't know history, so they make it up on the fly in their virtual worlds. If you review the Cosell broadcasts, poor chap about has a coronary at one point when Ali was hurt. He's almost in tears over Ali's poor performance. This doesn't "prove" Ali was hurt or performing badly, but I seriously doubt Mildy would have become the German hero he did in this fight had Ali steamrolled him. Have to read dozens of bios to hear Dundee, ect, talking about how Mildy had Ali hurt.

Son, you must be awfully young if you don't remember that Tyson pulled out of the Boswell bout in a co-promotion with Lewis of their rematch Lewis was trying to force Tyson into. Vitali stepped in on 3 weeks notice and was upgraded to Lewis a week later when Johnson pulled out.

In your case Joey, what seems like a downgrade of Ali in your little fan world, is actually a properly presented assessment of his strengths against Vitali's. Who cares of Vitali lost on a cut to a Lewis who you say was the worst version of Lewis? Children bubbling over in singsong means something to them, but is not likely to be understood in the real world.

The worst versions of Lewis were when he was sparked, but he was actually doing fine in those bouts before the big punch. Vitali/Lewis was an extension of the Mercer/Bruno fights Lewis had where they were able to box with him. Vitali took it further before the cut got out of hand because he's better.

Now, Joey, recall, I gave the prime Ali a fair chance to beat Vitali because of his elusiveness and combined quickness. Ropa dope Ali won't work on Vitali any more than it worked on Frazier. Ropa dope sullies Ali's reputation for me.

At any rate, you've confused legacy of old HOF fighters like Nat Fleischer used to do when he made his lists of greatest heavies, low ranking former modern greats Dempsey and Louis in favor of older legends like Johnson, Fitz and Corbett.

Vitali may lack some glossy names, but only because Lewis retired and Tyson and H G Holyroid wouldn't fight him. You see Joey, heroes get elevated so highly that the common man needs to see them getting beat before they can believe in the new guy. Nobody accepted Johnson any more than they did Hart or Burns. Jeffries had to come back to make the legend of Johnson just like the old champ came back for Rocky and Holmes.

Keep in mind Joey, nobody ranked Lewis higher than their paperboy until he beat the long lost in the plot Tyson. Boxing fans and historians are funny that way which is why they keep the unlicensed H G Holyroid up there claiming silly championship status for him when he can barely stand upright and throw a punch anymore. His opponents don't want a tragedy, so wear the cuffs while his poor fanboys don't care a whit for his health and will need to see him go splotto to believe it's all over.

Such is the nature of the beast, Joey. In the absence of glossy names, the brothers have themselves standing out in a new heavy landscape of dreadnaughts. It's a new era Joey that Americans have been unable to compete in. As such, these guys, including Lewis, they are seen as pioneers.

joseph5620

06-09-2009, 12:57 PM

[QUOTE=joseph5620;5450819]Who did Ali ever beat as good as Liston going into Liston 1?

The topic wasn't about 19-21 year old Ali was it?

Who did Leon ever beat as good as Ali going into Ali 1?

I don't recall talking about Leon Spinks career. Stay on topic,please.

Son, you must be awfully young if you don't remember that Tyson pulled out of the Boswell bout in a co-promotion with Lewis of their rematch Lewis was trying to force Tyson into. Vitali stepped in on 3 weeks notice and was upgraded to Lewis a week later when Johnson pulled out.

Tyson didn't pull out three weeks before Lewis fought Klitschko and Tyson was NEVER scheduled to fight Boswell.Vitali was scheduled to fight Boswell on the undercard of Lewis-Johnson. When Johnson got injured the Lewis -Klitschko fight was made. Both fighters fought on three weeks notice after training for other opponents. Like I said, you make things up as you go along with no shame.

The worst versions of Lewis were when he was sparked, but he was actually doing fine in those bouts before the big punch. Vitali/Lewis was an extension of the Mercer/Bruno fights Lewis had where they were able to box with him. Vitali took it further before the cut got out of hand because he's better.

Lewis was 29 when he fought Bruno,30 when he fought Mercer and nearly 38 when he fought Klitschko. The fact that you're comparing those fights speaks for itself.

MISCELLANY Vitali Klitschko is getting his chance to fight Lennox Lewis earlier than expected. Lewis will defend his World Boxing Council heavyweight title against Klitschko June 21 in Los Angeles. Lewis's scheduled opponent, Kirk Johnson, dropped out of the fight after tearing a chest muscle in training last week. The 6-foot- 7-inch Klitschko, the No. 1 contender, was scheduled to fight on the undercard against Cedric Boswell

([B]INSIDE BOXING-May 06, 2003) - A few days ago it was announced that Vitali Klitschko would be fighting on the Lennox Lewis vs. Kirk Johnson undercard. Today, InsideBoxing.com makes it known who he will face and he could not have chosen a more dangerous opponent.
Finally, there is a heavyweight out there with the courage to take on rising star Cedric Boswell (21-0, 16 KOs). Its a done deal! Vitali Klitschko (32-1, 31 KOs), and viewed by many as the #1 heavyweight in the world, and the biggest threat to Lennox Lewis, will take on Boswell as part of the Lewis vs. Johnson card on June 21, 2003 at the Staple Center in Los Angeles, California.

Vitali fought on 3 weeks notice huh?

LondonRingRules

06-10-2009, 12:01 PM

Tyson didn't pull out three weeks before Lewis fought Klitschko and Tyson was NEVER scheduled to fight Boswell.Vitali was scheduled to fight Boswell on the undercard of Lewis-Johnson. When Johnson got injured the Lewis -Klitschko fight was made. Both fighters fought on three weeks notice after training for other opponents. Like I said, you make things up as you go along with no shame.

** Joey, son, step away from the diapers and into the world of training pants.

I never stated Tyson pulled out 3 weeks before, I stated Vitali stepped in for Tyson on 3 weeks notice. Now, you do show supporting documentation that he was talked about as early as May 5 or so, about the length of Lewis' training camp.

I only get my news from F1ght New$, not preferring the endless parade of fanboy rumours floated by other sites and FN archives are impossible to access. I understand you were too young to remember Joey, but Vitali was Lewis' last mandatory of his last belt, the WBC that he refused to face for going on a year. Many fights rumoured to have been made and cancelled by Lewis with Vitali claiming Lewis had backed out of two contracts forcing Vitali to sue.

Here's 3 reports mentioning Tyson on the undercard. I favour the last one which is an AP release May 15, 5 weeks before the match, a more credible report. I suspect I got my 3 weeks figure from when Vitali arrives in LA to train which was probably when the contract was officially signed. One week later the Boswell fight is cancelled and Vitali Lewis is on.

Originally Tyson was scheduled against Maskaev, but he objected so they brought in Boswell at which point he backs out leaving them scrambling for a week or three. With the three biggest cards cancelled and Lewis finally agreeing to fight Vitali, he was pulling out all the stops trying to yank everyone over, suing Tyson to force him to rematch and then suing King after Tyson pulled out, claiming King forced Tyson out and Vitali having to sue to get his shot, a complete fiasco.

Now, don't bother coming back until your properly potty trained Joey as this a waste of my time.

http://www.********boxing.com/boxing-news/widelec0905.php
http://www.411mania.com/sports/boxing/99657/From-the-Vault-03.18.09:-Lewis-vs.-Klitschko.htm
http://i.tsn.com/boxing/articles/20030515/473703-p.html

portuge puncher

06-10-2009, 04:36 PM

tyson and foreman own those *****s,
in there primes both could KO either,

ali would find a way to outbox them

joseph5620

06-10-2009, 04:48 PM

[QUOTE=LondonRingRules;5458890]** Joey, son, step away from the diapers and into the world of training pants.

I never stated Tyson pulled out 3 weeks before, I stated Vitali stepped in for Tyson on 3 weeks notice. Now, you do show supporting documentation that he was talked about as early as May 5 or so, about the length of Lewis' training camp.

Which still makes your statement untrue. Vitali did not step in on three weeks notice for Tyson and that's the whole point.

Dave Rado

06-11-2009, 07:23 PM

** I've watched enough Bowe to understand he was a mentally limited fighter managed by a thug quite fortunate to come along as the overrated Holy was weakening.

The "overrated Holy" as you call him, when way past his prime, gave Lewis two very tough fights, and although Lewis was robbed in the first fight, many boxing experts scored the second fight to Holy. Prime for prime, most experts would favour the "overrated Holy" to beat Lewis.

BennyST

06-11-2009, 09:45 PM

** Joey, son, step away from the diapers and into the world of training pants.

:lol1:

When wrong and in doubt, just be patronising.

LondonRingRules

06-11-2009, 10:41 PM

The "overrated Holy" as you call him, when way past his prime, gave Lewis two very tough fights, and although Lewis was robbed in the first fight, many boxing experts scored the second fight to Holy. Prime for prime, most experts would favour the "overrated Holy" to beat Lewis.

** Can't really make a case for Holy having much of a prime in the heavy division he's so up and down in it.

They're only 3 yrs apart in age and had near identical records with Lewis having had more punishment with more heavy fights than a LH/cruiser moving up. Long in the tooth Tony Tucker gave Lewis many more problems than Holy ever did. Lewis was downgraded by judges for not engaging in a slugfest against the smaller man, but he only slugs when the other fighter forces him into a shootout. Holy was easy to control with a jab and clinches.

Holy's very next fight after Lewis, he beats Ruiz and gets much credit for that 4th title that everyone touts. Me thinks it takes a mean spirit to deny Lewis credit. Holy was only 2 yrs off the Tyson series which is how he got overrated, and 1 yr off the Moorer rematch. He was operated near the same level as he was against Cooper, Holmes, and Bowe, not exactly looking like the sharpest tool in the box.

Maybe you can nail down Holy's prime for us to better operate. I would remind you that all the so called experts you tout have to work for a living. The true experts make their living betting the odds and they ain't gonna be on TV yakking about nonsense.

Put it another way, the only time Lewis was ever beat was with 2 perfect straight rights in fights he was controlling. He was never outboxed or outslugged. Holy doesn't have that kind of one punch power, not even close.

Before winning the title he had a pretty good run of KOs against the usual contender fare. After the title he can barely buy a KO. He was outboxed and outslugged by Bowe, outboxed by Moorer, outboxed by Ruiz and so on and so forth. Any fighter always has a chance, but under the normal circumstance, best to best, Lewis 99 out of 100 fights.

LondonRingRules

06-11-2009, 10:53 PM

:lol1:

When wrong and in doubt, just be patronising.

** I proved my point Benny. That card was a complete fiasco with top cards cancelled and lawsuits flying everywhere.

Shoddy boxing journalism is contaminated by contradictory fanboy reports of fights that never come off as they scramble to scoop each other. I used an AP report that is more respected than ******** boxing. It got me near my target which is like trying nail down jello.

res

06-12-2009, 07:14 AM

** Can't really make a case for Holy having much of a prime in the heavy division he's so up and down in it.

They're only 3 yrs apart in age and had near identical records with Lewis having had more punishment with more heavy fights than a LH/cruiser moving up. Long in the tooth Tony Tucker gave Lewis many more problems than Holy ever did. Lewis was downgraded by judges for not engaging in a slugfest against the smaller man, but he only slugs when the other fighter forces him into a shootout. Holy was easy to control with a jab and clinches.

Holy's very next fight after Lewis, he beats Ruiz and gets much credit for that 4th title that everyone touts. Me thinks it takes a mean spirit to deny Lewis credit. Holy was only 2 yrs off the Tyson series which is how he got overrated, and 1 yr off the Moorer rematch. He was operated near the same level as he was against Cooper, Holmes, and Bowe, not exactly looking like the sharpest tool in the box.

Maybe you can nail down Holy's prime for us to better operate. I would remind you that all the so called experts you tout have to work for a living. The true experts make their living betting the odds and they ain't gonna be on TV yakking about nonsense.

Put it another way, the only time Lewis was ever beat was with 2 perfect straight rights in fights he was controlling. He was never outboxed or outslugged. Holy doesn't have that kind of one punch power, not even close.

Before winning the title he had a pretty good run of KOs against the usual contender fare. After the title he can barely buy a KO. He was outboxed and outslugged by Bowe, outboxed by Moorer, outboxed by Ruiz and so on and so forth. Any fighter always has a chance, but under the normal circumstance, best to best, Lewis 99 out of 100 fights.

I think the general consensus is that the Tyson v Holyfield match was between two fighters which were past their prime. The victory is touted because this fact is believed to have placed them on equal footing.

LondonRingRules

09-28-2009, 06:04 PM

The "overrated Holy" as you call him, when way past his prime, gave Lewis two very tough fights, and although Lewis was robbed in the first fight, many boxing experts scored the second fight to Holy. Prime for prime, most experts would favour the "overrated Holy" to beat Lewis.

** Time to get back to the point of the thread davy.

I don't see any version of unHolyone or Bowe, the guys who first nicked up each others undefeated records, they don't beat Vitali at his best. Even at age 37-38 coming off 4 yrs retirement, he's pitched a shutout against 2 prime slugger/bulls, Peter/Arreola, and one highly experienced, highly avoided southpaw champion, JCGomez.

His shot selection near perfect and accuracy unparalleled in the division and near best if not best in boxing history. Bowe was too stupid, not strong enough, and was carefully matched around any big heavy sluggers until Golota who owned him before retiring him to ignomy. The unHolyone way too inconsistant and running out of gas in 12 rders against Foreman and Bowe, sometimes in midrounds against little guys.

So, who could beat Vitali best to best. I give Tyson the best chance, I'd put money on it. Followed by Dempsey and Ali, but none of my money goes on them.

The interesting thing about Vitali is that he will retire with the alltime KO% record for champions as far as I can tell, 92-93%, yet he's not a big one punch slugger. He's a boxer first and foremost, but those rapier stingers he lands round after round have snap backed up by 250lbs of highly developed muscle.

And to think, some say he's the 2nd best brother.