I don't acknowledge the legitimacy of the "Junior" and "Super" weight classes. These divisions where invented by the sanctioning bodies to create roughly double the number of champions out there, which doubles the number of title fights, which in turn doubles the amount of money that flows into the alphabet boys coffers via sanctioning fees. These divisions are not recognised in my ATG lists. Fighters who fough predominately at one of these phony weight classes gets rated at the next highest legitmate weight class. For example, a fighter who fought primarily at Junior-Welterweight would be rated at Welterweight.

** But you have no problem rating 'Vander over Tyson and Wlad, both of whom have better heavy title records than him and better career records than him.

Guy was handed the unified heavy title over the overweight Buster in his last bout on his way to almost losing his life in a diabetic coma a few years later. It was Tyson who did the heavy lifting, unifying 4 belts in 4 separate fights, a feat still unmatched.

Thank goodness for the alphabets or 'Vander wouldn't be the 4x heavy champ everyone always shouts about. Heck, Valuev is already the 2X champ and looks to be going strong for another 5 yrs and might match 'Vander if Ruiz don't beat him to it.

Well, I don't want to crack too hard on 'mander'Vander, poor fellas got enough problems to bother the Pope these days. Just havin' some "Jimmy pop corn and I don't care" sport with Poet, don't ya know it!.......:popcorn:

Oh yeah i remember this thread ''Poet'' done about ATG Lists. Here it is for anyone who hasn't saw it. Everyone has there on views on rating and lists of ATG's, but you and poet 682006 always seem to clash on the history of boxing.
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247307

LondonRingRules and Poet682006 always seem to clash here in the history section, especially on the Heavyweights.

It's boxingscene's version of the Ali/Frazier rivalry.

LondonRingRules and Poet682006 always seem to clash here in the history section, especially on the Heavyweights.

It's boxingscene's version of the Ali/Frazier rivalry.

There have been some really heated arguments on here between the two, and i can see there being some more serious one's in the future between them.

Now that Poet682006 has been unbanned.

There have been some really heated arguments on here between the two, and i can see there being some more serious one's in the future between them.

Now that Poet682006 has been unbanned.

Now it's got that Tyson/Holyfield feel to it.

Poet coming back from the ban is like Mike getting out of prison. Only we know he'll perform just as well as he ever did. :)

Except the only time I ever see any of LRR's posts is when someone quotes his and then I may take a few pot shots. Otherwise I really don't have time to waste on that senile crack-pot.

Poet

LondonRingRules and Poet682006 always seem to clash here in the history section, especially on the Heavyweights.

It's boxingscene's version of the Ali/Frazier rivalry.

because londonringrules is a delusional ****wit

I disagree with the specific post by poet especially since 130 and 140 have been around since before WW2.

LRR is by and large the best writer on this website, too bad I agree with him 10% of the time.

LRR is by and large the best writer on this website, too bad I agree with him 10% of the time.

Well, I would say if I agreed with someone only 10% of the time that they were an idiot that has nothing intelligent to add to the forum and hence NOT a good writer.

Poet

Well, I would say if I agreed with someone only 10% of the time that they were an idiot that has nothing intelligent to add to the forum and hence NOT a good writer.

Poet

u mean guys who says duran is a bum bcoz he lost to vinnie pazienza & that floyd mayweather will gatti him?

just dont mind them my man... :)

u mean guys who says duran is a bum bcoz he lost to vinnie pazienza & that floyd mayweather will gatti him?

just dont mind them my man... :)

Did he say that? :haha: What a tool :rofl:

Poet

Did he say that? :haha: What a tool :rofl:

Poet

no he didnt... i mean guys who says that... just dont mind them... im relatively a new fan compared to most of u guys in this section... but everytime i read those duran is a bum kind of posts, i just laugh them off...

relax a little bit my man... you are one of my fave posters here along with jabbie & wmute...

no he didnt... i mean guys who says that... just dont mind them... im relatively a new fan compared to most of u guys in this section... but everytime i read those duran is a bum kind of posts, i just laugh them off...

relax a little bit my man... you are one of my fave posters here along with jabbie & wmute...

I have a LOT of respect for wmute and Jab is one of my best friends on this sight along with guys like Hawkins and Iron Man ect.

Poet

Well, I would say if I agreed with someone only 10% of the time that they were an idiot that has nothing intelligent to add to the forum and hence NOT a good writer.

Poet

I am talking about his control of the english language of course. Boxingwise I disagree most of the times though. It is also has to be said that LRR seem to be particularly keen on writing on topics where he already knows that he has "****-stirring" opinions.

haha poet, now i notice the text added to your avatar... nice

I am talking about his control of the english language of course. Boxingwise I disagree most of the times though. It is also has to be said that LRR seem to be particularly keen on writing on topics where he already knows that he has "****-stirring" opinions.

yeah, the guy is a complete cunt, but he seems pretty well educated

Oh yeah i remember this thread ''Poet'' done about ATG Lists. Here it is for anyone who hasn't saw it. Everyone has there on views on rating and lists of ATG's, but you and poet 682006 always seem to clash on the history of boxing.
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247307

** Come now, how could I really clash with a silly little 8th grader who still ain't seen my thread opener?

I'm restricted from responding to his silly little thread, yet I give him free access to this thread, which like any stupid catfish, why he swallows bait hook, line and sinker.

Oh, he wasn't banned BTW. He took some time off to travel to his 8th grade graduation class reunion from a decade ago. He got kicked back down to the 8th grade class on the first day of 9th grade, but has been on the 1999 8th grade mailing list ever since his mistaken graduation.

Little known trivia fact: He and Tyson are on the same medications. Veeeerily interesting........:cool:

haha poet, now i notice the text added to your avatar... nice

I thought it was perfect :D

Poet

I think everyone forgets about Wills! I don't rank Langford because he was really a Welterweight and while he fought Heavyweights in truth he fought everyone from Lightweight on up so I just rank him in the division where he was at his best. Kind of like Charley Burley.
Poet

** Oh, Lordy, Lordy, looks who's forty and still can't do arithmetic and stuck in the 8th grade.

Sam had barely a handful of fights at welt. From the time Johnson first beat the 150lb Sam in Sam's 2nd ever heavy challenge in 1906 until the time Johnson was starched by Willard in 1915, Sam's record in just those years alone was 79-7-11, 42 KO, mostly cleaning up every heavy, lightheavy, or middleweight that dared step into the ring with him, sending the rest scurrying into the dustbins of ignominy.

In short, in those 10 yrs of Sam's prime where Johnson took countless purses for peanuts to avoid the lucrative rematch, Sam compiles a better record than Johnson's 73-13-9, 40 KO career record. Moreover, he has a better record against Johnson's title comp in this period, little Sam being the uncrowned people's champ.

Here's the people's avatar for ya poet: :greddy2::ugh1:

just a few comments. iron mike had a lot of "inside help", shall i put it, to getting the title fights he got. and fighting the people he fought. and, basically everything. mike will even tell you this.

and to imply that jack johnson was ducking was only speculative at most to my knowledge. i have heard just a few people say this, but not much facts to go on. unless you wouldnt mind clarifying the "peanuts" fights he had. and remember to leave out the time where he was traveling the world to have to box while he was evading the law. unless you are for some reason including that.

and really, fighting white people was where the money was at. it is like the haye-klitschko fight. completely different sides, characters, class, size, skills, etc etc etc

but, people are clamoring for this fight only because there is a young untested guy who runs a big mouth. not much of any other reason. if haye wins, people will get bored again as he will either fight bums and keep title safe or get beaten by some unespected, unthrilling fighter.

btw, that makes me happy to have a rematch clause. ll used them in all fights - and he needed them in a few! this contract also ensures that haye cant just skip out on a lucky win. and besides, if haye won, i have very extreme doubts that he would fight wlad again as the risk-reward will have changed. anyways, that would be a great rematch if there needs to be one. and gee, i seem to remember when people were angry that wlad didnt fight people who beat him. but if he gets a rematch clause, now its a bad thing?
and wk is exciting when he turns on the "pissed off switch" that he used to use right out of ther gate almost.
-----

so, just a few of my latest thoughts. and to wrap it up, i would like DLH to retire from having anything to do with boxing period!

oh, and at least don king isnt controlling the heavyweight division! remember that strangle hold? let's sit back and appreciate that tyhanks to the k bros we have interesting fight - peter/vk, haye/wk, and the younger guys getting more chances to fight for the right to challenge.

no he didnt... i mean guys who says that... just dont mind them... im relatively a new fan compared to most of u guys in this section... but everytime i read those duran is a bum kind of posts, i just laugh them off...

relax a little bit my man... you are one of my fave posters here along with jabbie & wmute...

Guys who talk **** like that don't know boxing plain and simple or have an agenda. I don't always agree with everyone, but its pretty easy to weed out the morons from the intelligent posters here. This particular forum has some great posters with excellent observations, opinions and knowledge, but the idiots will always be amongst them. Sometimes you try and teach them and hope they learn a thing or two. Other times you gotta piss on their leg to make a point. It is what it is.

just a few comments. iron mike had a lot of "inside help", shall i put it, to getting the title fights he got. and fighting the people he fought. and, basically everything. mike will even tell you this.

and to imply that jack johnson was ducking was only speculative at most to my knowledge. i have heard just a few people say this, but not much facts to go on. unless you wouldnt mind clarifying the "peanuts" fights he had. and remember to leave out the time where he was traveling the world to have to box while he was evading the law. unless you are for some reason including that.

and really, fighting white people was where the money was at. it is like the haye-klitschko fight. completely different sides, characters, class, size, skills, etc etc etc

** Pretty self evident that everyone who ever got a title fight had "inside help." Mike had 3 of the best HOFers in boxing history on his team which is a key reason that his natural attributes were able to be developed into the most devastating heavy in history.

Apparently you've never read much on Jack Johnson. Sam Langford was one of the most popular fighters of the day with Jeannette being somewhat less so. Johnson was not a popular fighter prior to winning his title, nor was he popular afterwards.

Ketchel and Obrien were big non-heavy names in the day and Johnson made decent money in them, but Jeffries was the fight he made his legend and fortune in. The rest of his defenses were against nobodies, really poor fights with Tony Ross, Al Kaufman, Fireman Flynn, Battling Johnson who was black, and Frank Moran. Kaufman at least had some decent size and record.

Flynn was held in Las Vegas New Mexico, as close to nowhere a person can be, then JJ's smuggled into Canada where he travels to France, not "travelling the world." He was broke and desperate for money when noted black and white heavy champs come to France to take on the great Euro and French Champ Carpentier as well as each other. With JJ in attendence, need I state the obvious?

Johnson got paid virtually nothing to defend against Battle Johnson and Moran. Any of those other contenders fighting each other in France would have been big money fights, and two were white. There were substantial title offers for the Langford fight in particular.

Professional champs, indeed, fighters fight for money, and when big money is turned down for the equivilent of a bowl of gruel, the natural conclusion is that they don't fancy their chances against legitimate challenge.

Trust me, there will be yet another umpteenth post regurgitating the usual dreary dreck dredged up by reading the usual cookie cutter cottage industry publications about Johnson. Poor Jack this and that, boo hoo, hoo, but the guy hit the jackpot and then starts a long spiral downwards from any claim of superiority over his era peers.

I mean, having to flee to Paris, France where you can make big money and live like a king, are we to feel sorry for anyone to have an opportunity like that?

I'd do that in a half a heartbeat right now if given the chance, but alas, I don't even get paid for silly slapping our resident 8th grade poet around with white sissy gloves, so forget that dream.

Yeah, it's typical. A word of advice though: If you're going to make a thread taking on an established poster it's better to wait until you've made enough posts to give yourself a track record. Otherwise people will simply figure you're an alt or a newbie: Either way you'll catch some heat. Alts are frowned upon in the serious forums (such as boxing history); and longtime posters will circle the wagons around a fellow longtime poster if a newbie has a go at him. Just a friendly FYI. Now go build up you post count so you can take the piss out him from a solid foundation :D
Poet

** Ah, a sepia toned fuzzy Hallmark card moment as the resident 8th grader takes a little 6th grader under his wing.

Classic! :usa:

** Ah, a sepia toned fuzzy Hallmark card moment as the resident 8th grader takes a little 6th grader under his wing.

Classic! :usa:

I guess that makes you the resident 4th grader with a learning disability huh? :rofl:

I guess that makes you the resident 4th grader with a learning disability huh? :rofl:

He may be the special needs short-bus rider. TIMMY!!! :rofl:

Poet

I guess that makes you the resident 4th grader with a learning disability huh? :rofl:

** Heh, heh, Poet's deathly afraid of 4th graders, don't you know it? 4th grade was a rough, rough year for him.

Happy Mother's Day...............:flowers1::flowers1:

** Heh, heh, Poet's deathly afraid of 4th graders, don't you know it? 4th grade was a rough, rough year for him.

Happy Mother's Day...............:flowers1::flowers1:

lame ass comeback buddy

londonringrules....wait, what, i dont know much about jack johnson?

are u crazy??? do u know how much video footage i have recieved and how many books i have about jack? including autobigs.

i would no doubt love to challenge u about your info. too bad my golden gloves champ uncle died a few years ago. as now, i cant get more actual info from people closer to sources.

u r way the hell off base. and u think u know everything.

and i just commented on your great points on the w klitschko thread.

i can break ur arguement easily.

1 - i never said jack was popular. he was with many blacks at the time however, even though some had gotten lynched for celebrating.

2 - jack had white people in his camp which helped him negotiate. he, many times, turned down offers in order to renegotiate. he didnt always fight for a lot of cash, but to be able to buy 4 or 5 cars per year and being able to wear 2 suits a day was a clear indicator that he had some cash.

3 - tyson had more help than many boxers as evidence shows by the numorous indictments that king had and testimony from other fighters. look into the sports illustrated archives.

there have always been crookedness in boxing, but what i am saying is that mike also had media hyping which contributed to his somewhat "legendary" status. not to mention the bribes to fighters to take dives - this was, to my reading, most common in the late 70's and 80's.

yeah, mmhmm.

londonringrules....wait, what, i dont know much about jack johnson?

are u crazy??? do u know how much video footage i have recieved and how many books i have about jack? including autobigs.

i would no doubt love to challenge u about your info. too bad my golden gloves champ uncle died a few years ago. as now, i cant get more actual info from people closer to sources.

u r way the hell off base. and u think u know everything.

and i just commented on your great points on the w klitschko thread.

i can break ur arguement easily.

1 - i never said jack was popular. he was with many blacks at the time however, even though some had gotten lynched for celebrating.

2 - jack had white people in his camp which helped him negotiate. he, many times, turned down offers in order to renegotiate. he didnt always fight for a lot of cash, but to be able to buy 4 or 5 cars per year and being able to wear 2 suits a day was a clear indicator that he had some cash.

3 - tyson had more help than many boxers as evidence shows by the numorous indictments that king had and testimony from other fighters. look into the sports illustrated archives.

there have always been crookedness in boxing, but what i am saying is that mike also had media hyping which contributed to his somewhat "legendary" status. not to mention the bribes to fighters to take dives - this was, to my reading, most common in the late 70's and 80's.

yeah, mmhmm.

J, you just learned the hard was about LRR :rofl:

Poet

J, you just learned the hard was about LRR :rofl:

Poet

ahh! u cheeky bastard! thanx for the warning though. lol.

i can break ur arguement easily.

1 - i never said jack was popular. he was with many blacks at the time however, even though some had gotten lynched for celebrating.


** This was the only argument I see that you addressed.

This is a thread devoted to All Time Great Goof, Poet, don't you know it?

My relevant point was he was not popular with ring patrons compared to Sam Langford who was quite popular. Johnson did have a few supporters in the media, but Langford probably had more, especially in England where he seems to have been quite popular.

You want to create a thread on Johnson, be my guest. He's a fun topic, but you'll have to forgive me in advance when I pick apart certain parts of his record. Joe Jeannette and Harry Wills were unanimous that Langford was the best heavy of the era, not Johnson.

** This was the only argument I see that you addressed.

This is a thread devoted to All Time Great Goof, Poet, don't you know it?

My relevant point was he was not popular with ring patrons compared to Sam Langford who was quite popular. Johnson did have a few supporters in the media, but Langford probably had more, especially in England where he seems to have been quite popular.

You want to create a thread on Johnson, be my guest. He's a fun topic, but you'll have to forgive me in advance when I pick apart certain parts of his record. Joe Jeannette and Harry Wills were unanimous that Langford was the best heavy of the era, not Johnson.

oh yeah, blacks really hated jack. that's why they celebrated when he won the title, right? :rolleyes:

u must be a langford jockey.

oh yeah, blacks really hated jack. that's why they celebrated when he won the title, right? :rolleyes:

u must be a langford jockey.

LRR IS correct on this point: There was a backlash against Johnson in the black community AFTER he won the title. Johnson drew his own color line (monetary reasons) and many in the black community felt Johnson's over-the-top behavior after winning the title made it harder for them, feeling his behavior set back the progress of the black community decades. This backlash could still be seen some 20 years later when Jack Blackburn, a great black Lightweight who was a contemporary of Johnson's, expressed out and out disdain for the man when Blackburn was training Joe Louis.

Poet

LRR IS correct on this point: There was a backlash against Johnson in the black community AFTER he won the title. Johnson drew his own color line (monetary reasons) and many in the black community felt Johnson's over-the-top behavior after winning the title made it harder for them, feeling his behavior set back the progress of the black community decades. This backlash could still be seen some 20 years later when Jack Blackburn, a great black Lightweight who was a contemporary of Johnson's, expressed out and out disdain for the man when Blackburn was training Joe Louis.

Poet

so, my sources, books, were wrong??? cause i read about great celebrations after many people hearing about his winning the title. perhaps after a while they might have felt the way you described.

i have a good portion of one of my bookshelves dedicated to jack johnson, so i will try to digg up some quotes.

too bad my uncles isnt around. he was a golden gloves champ in the 1930's.

so, my sources, books, were wrong??? cause i read about great celebrations after many people hearing about his winning the title. perhaps after a while they might have felt the way you described.

i have a good portion of one of my bookshelves dedicated to jack johnson, so i will try to digg up some quotes.

too bad my uncles isnt around. he was a golden gloves champ in the 1930's.

No, your sources are correct: They DID celebrate his victory. The backlash came afterwards when he'd had the title for a while. At the time he beat Burns he was lauded.

Poet

No, your sources are correct: They DID celebrate his victory. The backlash came afterwards when he'd had the title for a while. At the time he beat Burns he was lauded.

Poet

yes. that is what i was refferring to initially. yeah, there was harsh backlash. also, there were some african americans who didnt like the lifestyle of jack's or the white women thing also.

so yeah, i know what u initially meant as well.

for all i know, it seemed almost mixed amongst people - his likability i mean.

I've watched Pacquiao - Hatton four times over the past week and I keep being struck by how much he looked like Duran fighting. Manny really has devoloped into a legit boxer-puncher instead of just a brawler.

** My STARS, just a brawler?

Gots to have a another nice little pop at more of your popcorn:popcorn:, calling one of the deadliest, quickest sluggers in history just a brawler in the beginning.

Duran was the brutish brawler/fighter fine tuned by Arcel and Brown with slickness and footwork. Manny has never been a brawler. He's a pure fighter and a gentleman, much closer to Sugar Ray Robby, not a Duran knockin'nads around and making them chime, hitting on breaks, elbows, rabbit punches and the like.

Moreover, this nonsense that Manny was just a one handed fighter before Roach holds as much water as a leaky bucket. Roach deserves credit for refinement, but Manny always used his right hand for good purpose. Now he can use it for better purpose.

You were struck alright, you got the first part right, by apoplexy when Manny knocked the earth off it's axis.

Ali was able to adapt his way of fighting post-exhile to account for the fact that his reflexes were slipping and he could no longer dance for 15 rounds non-stop.
Poet

** Gotta love the resident poet cum purple slurple koolaide sipper's classic gems.

I'm assuming he has fantasies of Ali dancing nonstop for 15 rds he wants to share. Any of you chaps want to hazard a guess which fights he's referring to?