ATG Lists [Archive] - Boxing Forum

poet682006

02-21-2009, 12:19 PM

Just a few thoughts on ATG lists. I don't think you can have a set number of slots like Top 10 ect. as I believe the number of ATGs in a division is fluid and open-ended with new ATGs being added as their careers wind down and come into perspective. Also some divisions that have not been historically deep may have fewer. I would say the Welterweights have more than 20 ATGs for example, while Flyweights fewer than 10.

Near greats are fine fighters who for whatever reason fall just short of ATG status and there are numurous examples of them.

A note on divisions. I'm an "old-school-8" guy. Those 8 are:

Heavyweight
Light-Heavyweight
Middleweight
Welterweight
Lightweight
Featherweight
Bantamweight
Flyweight

I don't acknowledge the legitimacy of the "Junior" and "Super" weight classes. These divisions where invented by the sanctioning bodies to create roughly double the number of champions out there, which doubles the number of title fights, which in turn doubles the amount of money that flows into the alphabet boys coffers via sanctioning fees. These divisions are not recognised in my ATG lists. Fighters who fough predominately at one of these phony weight classes gets rated at the next highest legitmate weight class. For example, a fighter who fought primarily at Junior-Welterweight would be rated at Welterweight.

Also, I only rate fighters in one division. The only exception I make to that is Ray Robinson because he's, well, Ray Robinson. Other fighters I rate in the division they spent the majority of their career at; or, if they spent close to the same amount of time in more than one I rate them in the division they were best at.

Poet

poet682006

02-21-2009, 12:19 PM

Heavyweights

ATGs

01. Joe Louis
02. Muhammad Ali
03. Jack Johnson
04. Jack Dempsey
05. Larry Holmes
06. Sonny Liston
07. Evander Holyfield
08. George Foreman
09. Rocky Marciano
10. Mike Tyson
11. Joe Frazier
12. Harry Wills

Some Near Greats (Alphabetical)

Riddick Bowe
James Corbett
George Godfrey
Peter Jackson
Joe Jeannette
James Jeffries
Vitali Klitschko
Lennox Lewis
Sam McVey
Billy Miske
Ken Norton
Floyd Patterson
Max Schmeling
Earnie Shavers
John L. Sullivan
David Tua
Jersey Joe Walcott

poet682006

02-21-2009, 12:20 PM

Light-Heavyweights

ATGs

01. Ezzard Charles
02. Archie Moore
03. Gene Tunney
04. Bob Foster
05. Michael Spinks
06. Roy Jones Jr.
07. Billy Conn
08. John Henry Lewis
09.Tommy Loughran
10. Tommy Gibbons
11. Maxie Rosenbloom
12. Mauro Mina
13. Jack Dillon
14. Young Stribling

Some Near Greats (Alphabetical)

Jimmy Bivins
Eddie Booker
Georges Carpentier
Joe Choynski
Jack Delaney
Chris Ewbank
Tiger Jack Fox
Victor Galindez
Virgil Hill
Harold Johnson
Joe Knight
Battling Levinsky
Frankie Liles
Llloyd Marshall
Harry Matthews
Joey Maxim
Michael Moorer
Matthew Saad Muhammad
Kid Norfolk
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Willie Pastrano
Graciano Rocchiagiani
Antonio Tarver
Dick Tiger
Jose Torres
Tommy Yarosz

poet682006

02-21-2009, 12:21 PM

Middleweights

ATGs

01. Ray Robinson
02. Bob Fitzsimmons
03. Marvin Hagler
04. Stanley Ketchel
05. Bernard Hopkins
06. Charley Burley
07. Harry Greb
08. Jake LaMotta
09. Carlos Monzon
10. Tony Zale
11. Panama Joe Gans
12. Marcel Cerdan
13. Les Darcy
14. Mike Gibbons
15. Holman Williams
16. Mickey Walker
17. James Toney
18. Mike McCallum
19. Tommy Burns
20. Freddie Steele
21. Non Periel Jack Dempsey
22. Nino Benvenuti

Some Near Greats (Alphabetical)

George Abrams
Freddie Apostoli
Joey Archer
Nigel Benn
George Benton
Bennie Brisco
Lou Brouillard
Hank Casey
Cyrille Delanoit
Vince Dundee
Tiger Flowers
Gene Fullmer
Joey Giambra
Joey Giardello
Bert Lytell
Gerald McClellan
Terry Norris
Mike O'Dowd
Ken Overlin
Billy Papke
Dave Sands
Harry Smith
Jeff Smith
Jermain Taylor
Randy Turpin
Rodrigo Valdez
Teddy Yarosz
Winky Wright

poet682006

02-21-2009, 12:22 PM

Welterweights

ATGs

01. Ray Robinson
02. Sam Langford
03. Henry Armstrong
04. Ray Leonard
05. Kid Gavilan
06. Jose Napoles
07. Barney Ross
08. Jimmy McLarnin
09. Thomas Hearns
10. Oscar De La Hoya
11. Emile Griffith
12. Feliz Trinidad
13. Tommy Ryan
14. Luis Rodriguez
15. Duilio Loi
16. Antonio Cervantes
17. Shane Mosley
18. Wilfred Benitez
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
21. Aaron Pryor

Some Near Greats (Alphabetical)

Billy Graham
Jack Britton
Joe Walcott
Young Jack Thompson
Marty Servo
Carlos Palomino
Buddy McGirt
Packey McFarland
Ted Kid Lewis
Cocoa Kid
Rube Ferns
Gustav Eder
Donald Curry
Simon Brown
Johnny Bratton
Kostya Tszyu
Fritzie Zivic
Marlon Starling
Lloyd Honeyghan
Gypsy Joe Harris
Jackie Fields
Young Corbett III
Saoul Mamby
Nicolino Locche

poet682006

02-21-2009, 12:22 PM

Lightweights

ATGs

01. Roberto Duran
02. Benny Leonard
03. Pernell Whitaker
04. Joe Gans
05. Carlos Ortiz
06. Jack Blackburn
07. Azumah Nelson
08. Joe Brown
09. Ike Williams
10. Julio Cesar Chavez
11. Jem Driscoll
12. Tony Canzoneri

Some Near Greats (Alphabetical)

Lou Ambers
Ken Buchanan
Hector Camacho
Jimmy Carter
Joel Casamayor
Jose Luis Castillo
Lulu Constanino
Diego Coralles
Freddie Dawson
Esteban DeJesus
Julio Diaz
Gabriel Elorde
Alfredo Escalera
Acelino Freitas
Beau Jack
Willie Joyce
Hilmer Kenty
Ismael Laguna
Bob Montgomery
Erik Morales
Battling Nelson
Jose Luis Ramirez
Edwin Rosario
Lew Tendler
Ben Villaflor
Edwin Viruet
Freddie Welsh
Orlando Zulueta

poet682006

02-21-2009, 12:23 PM

Featherweights

ATGs

01. Alexis Arguello
02. Willie Pepp
03. Sandy Sadler
04. Salvador Sanchez
05. Eusebio Pedrosa
06. Jem Driscoll
07. Marco Antonio Barrera
08. Abe Attell
09. Young Griffo
10. Manny Pacquiao

Some Near Greats (Alphabetical)

Baby Arizmendi
Bobby Chacon
Kid Chocolate
Johnny Dundee
Jeff Fenech
Dick Finnegan
Naseem Hamed
Kevin Kelley
Johnny Kilbane
Juan LaPorte
Danny Lopez
Juan Manuel Marquez
Freddie Miller
Sergio Palma
Sugar Ramos
Vincente Saldivar

poet682006

02-21-2009, 12:24 PM

Bantamweights

ATGs

01. Eder Jofre
02. Carlos Zarate
03. Jeff Chandler
04. Pete Herman
05. Khaosai Galaxy
06. Ruben Olivares
07. Lupe Pintor
08. Sixto Escabar
09. Terry McGovern

Some Near Greats (Alphabetical)

Paulie Ayala
Panama Al Brown
Frankie Burns
Jimmy Carruthers
Johnny Coulon
Al Delmont
George Dixon
Fighting Harada
Junior Jones
Joe Lynch
Rafael Marquez
Owen Moran
Memphis Pal Moore
Manuel Ortiz
Charley Phil Rosenberg

poet682006

02-21-2009, 12:24 PM

Flyweights

ATGs

01. Pascual Perez
02. Miguel Canto
03. Jimmy Wilde
04. Pancho Villa
05. Michael Carbajal
06. Fidel LaBarba
07. Ricardo Lopez

Some Near Greats (Alphabetical)

Yuri Arbachakov
Newsboy Brown
Jung-Koo Chang
Elky Clark
Frankie Genaro
Yoko Gushiken
Santos Lacier
Benny Lynch
Saman Sorjaturong
Midget Wolgast
Myung-Woo Yuh
Hilario Zapata

Southpaw16BF

02-21-2009, 01:34 PM

Some good list's there, which are never a easy thing to do and everyone will have there own opinion.

But i really do think Dwight Muhhamed Qawi, formally known as Dwight Braxton at least derserves a mention, on the nearly list at LHW.

He was WBC LHW champion, taking it off Matthew Saad Muhammad with a TKO win, he would defend it 4 times and would also defeat Muhammad again.

Before losing it to your number #5 choice Michael Spinks on UD.

He would then move up to cruiserweight and win the WBA title and make one defence of that against former Heavyweight champion Leon Spinks, stopping him in 6.

And then would lose his title in a true battle and one of the most excting and brutal fights of all time against Evander Holyfield, on a SD, in which alot of people thought he should of got.

After this his weight gained out of control, and he would go on to get stopped by Evander Holyfield and George Foreman, and challeged once more for the WBA 190 title getting beat on SD against Robert Daniels.

Great fighter in his prime.

poet682006

02-21-2009, 01:42 PM

wmute

02-21-2009, 03:00 PM

The_Bringer

02-21-2009, 03:25 PM

As with any list, I agree with some, not with others. Some of the ones I disagree with would be having Jermain Taylor in the "near" list for Middleweights, and putting Oscar De La Hoya and Shane Mosley on the list at Welterweight.

My heavyweights.......

1.) Joe Louis
2.) Muhammad Ali
3.) Larry Holmes
4.) Jack Johnson
5.) Jack Dempsey
6.) George Foreman
7.) Joe Frazier
8.) Rocky Marciano
9.) Lennox Lewis
10.) Evander Holyfield
11.) Mike Tyson

I have no argument whatsoever with your lists for Light Heavyweight or Middleweight. That's pretty spot on, at least from my perspective.

For Welterweights, I'd toss off Mosley, and De La Hoya, and replace them with others. Pernell Whitaker should definitely be on there.

I'll have to take further time to draw up my complete top 15 lists.

wmute

02-21-2009, 04:08 PM

poet682006

02-21-2009, 05:14 PM

Why do you rank Foster above Spinks?

Foster was a beast at 175. Like Spinks, he was undefeated at that weight only losing to Heavyweights. Taking nothing away from Spinks, who's a favorite of mine, I just think Foster was a bit more dangerous.

Poet

poet682006

02-21-2009, 05:17 PM

Seriously??? say it was a mistake...

I didnt notice until bringer brought it up

Honestly I'm on the fence about how good Taylor really is and whether he's good enough to be considered a near-great or not. I put him in with the near-greats because I figured SOMEONE was going to ask if I didn't include him.

Poet

poet682006

02-21-2009, 05:19 PM

andrewcuff

02-21-2009, 05:36 PM

Good lists Poet, only one query. Wouldn't Mayweather be ranked as a featherweight rather than a welterweight? His best wins were at 130 and 135, after all?

poet682006

02-21-2009, 05:50 PM

Good lists Poet, only one query. Wouldn't Mayweather be ranked as a featherweight rather than a welterweight? His best wins were at 130 and 135, after all?

Floyd won his first title in 1998 at Super-Featherweight over Genero Hernandez. Since I don't regard the "Super" and "Junior" divisions he grades up to the next highest legitimate division which is Lightweight. The problem is, Floyd spent a roughly equal emount of time at Junior-Welter which grades up to Welterweight. So I could have placed him at either Lightweight or Welterweight with Welter getting the nod because of his opponents there.

Poet

The_Bringer

02-21-2009, 06:14 PM

You don't consider De La Hoya and Mosley ATGs? But Trinidad's okay on the list?

Pernell Whitaker was at his best at Lightweight and unless you're named Ray Robinson I only rate a fighter in ONE weight class.

Poet

From a technical aspect, I wouldn't put Trinidad on my list either. He was a very one dimensional fighter who relied on the power of his punch to win the day. Anytime he was up against an opponet who had solid boxing fundamentals he failed, and failed big time. (The Oscar robbery, Hopkins, Wright)

But from an accomplishment standpoint, I can't remove him. He is a 3 division World Champion with victories over some of the best of his era.

I wouldn't put De La Hoya on the list because he is notorious for dropping the ball in every big fight he's ever been in. Granted you can argue that he won the Trinidad fight and the Mosley rematch, as most people think he did (myself included). But on paper, and in the books, he lost, and that's where it really matters.

Mosley will forever be tainted by taking steroids.

And I'm not sure it's fair to only rate a guy in one weight class, unless his name is Ray Robinson. Granted Robinson was the greatest multiple weight class conquerer, but some other great fighters have dominated multiple divisions and should be judged according to merit in each class, not just their natural one.

poet682006

02-21-2009, 06:38 PM

From a technical aspect, I wouldn't put Trinidad on my list either. He was a very one dimensional fighter who relied on the power of his punch to win the day. Anytime he was up against an opponet who had solid boxing fundamentals he failed, and failed big time. (The Oscar robbery, Hopkins, Wright)

But from an accomplishment standpoint, I can't remove him. He is a 3 division World Champion with victories over some of the best of his era.

I wouldn't put De La Hoya on the list because he is notorious for dropping the ball in every big fight he's ever been in. Granted you can argue that he won the Trinidad fight and the Mosley rematch, as most people think he did (myself included). But on paper, and in the books, he lost, and that's where it really matters.

Mosley will forever be tainted by taking steroids.

And I'm not sure it's fair to only rate a guy in one weight class, unless his name is Ray Robinson. Granted Robinson was the greatest multiple weight class conquerer, but some other great fighters have dominated multiple divisions and should be judged according to merit in each class, not just their natural one.

I think utimately what makes a fighter an ATG or not is a combination of ability and accomplishments. In the case of De La Hoya I don't think anybody has ever questioned his ability. As far as his resume goes, Oscar ducked no one. Pretty much every big name fighter within 10 pounds of him is on his record. He may not have beaten all of them but in an era when champions tend to avoid dangerous opponents his record stands out. I DO consider a whether a fight was a robbery or not as I'm ill inclined to punish a fighter because he got jobbed on the cards.

The problem with the Mosley-steroids issue is that he is hardly the only one who has that cloud following him. There have been numerous allegations that Evander Holyfield used steroids. There were rumours that Mike Tyson did the same. The problem as I see it is that we would have to throw out this entire era (much as they talk of doing with baseball) if we take too hard a line on the steroid issue. I'm not sure if I'm prepared to do that.

Ray Robinson gets that singular honor from because I consider him the greatest fighter ever regardless of weight class. It may be "unfair" to others but I like things clear-cut. It's not like I'm hosing them either as I'm rating them where they were at their best. As far as I'm concerned it's more of an honor for Ezzard Charles to be rated as the greatest Light-Heavyweight ever than, say, the 15th greatest Heavyweight. I'm certainly more interested in Roberto Duran as the greatest Lightweight ever than as a past-prime Welterweight getting wacked out by Tommy Hearns.

Poet

RingTech01

02-21-2009, 06:40 PM

SRR was the best ever, case closed.

The_Bringer

02-21-2009, 06:45 PM

I think utimately what makes a fighter an ATG or not is a combination of ability and accomplishments. In the case of De La Hoya I don't think anybody has ever questioned his ability. As far as his resume goes, Oscar ducked no one. Pretty much every big name fighter within 10 pounds of him is on his record. He may not have beaten all of them but in an era when champions tend to avoid dangerous opponents his record stands out. I DO consider a whether a fight was a robbery or not as I'm ill inclined to punish a fighter because he got jobbed on the cards.

The problem with the Mosley-steroids issue is that he is hardly the only one who has that cloud following him. There have been numerous allegations that Evander Holyfield used steroids. There were rumours that Mike Tyson did the same. The problem as I see it is that we would have to throw out this entire era (much as they talk of doing with baseball) if we take too hard a line on the steroid issue. I'm not sure if I'm prepared to do that.

Ray Robinson gets that singular honor from because I consider him the greatest fighter ever regardless of weight class. It may be "unfair" to others but I like things clear-cut. It's not like I'm hosing them either as I'm rating them where they were at their best. As far as I'm concerned it's more of an honor for Ezzard Charles to be rated as the greatest Light-Heavyweight ever than, say, the 15th greatest Heavyweight. I'm certainly more interested in Roberto Duran as the greatest Lightweight ever than as a past-prime Welterweight getting wacked out by Tommy Hearns.

Poet

You make some very good counterpoints, as usual. But do you really think the early and mid 90's era would be that bad, as far as steroid use went?

As for Oscar, we'll have to agree to disagree. Though I will concede that Oscar did fight every live body anywhere near his current division throughout his entire career. A ducker he most certainly was not.

RingTech01

02-21-2009, 06:49 PM

second best, ali

Southpaw16BF

02-21-2009, 07:03 PM

From a technical aspect, I wouldn't put Trinidad on my list either. He was a very one dimensional fighter who relied on the power of his punch to win the day. Anytime he was up against an opponet who had solid boxing fundamentals he failed, and failed big time. (The Oscar robbery, Hopkins, Wright)

But from an accomplishment standpoint, I can't remove him. He is a 3 division World Champion with victories over some of the best of his era.

I wouldn't put De La Hoya on the list because he is notorious for dropping the ball in every big fight he's ever been in. Granted you can argue that he won the Trinidad fight and the Mosley rematch, as most people think he did (myself included). But on paper, and in the books, he lost, and that's where it really matters.

Mosley will forever be tainted by taking steroids.

And I'm not sure it's fair to only rate a guy in one weight class, unless his name is Ray Robinson. Granted Robinson was the greatest multiple weight class conquerer, but some other great fighters have dominated multiple divisions and should be judged according to merit in each class, not just their natural one.

Just beacuse Trinidad was one dimensional, his place in history shound't be douted. It matters what you do in the prize ring, wheter you do it with one dimenstion or not. Should Stanley Ketcel or Rocky Grazinao legacy be taken away just because they were one dimensional?

Trinidad also had a big heart, and in his prime had great recovery skills from getting up fron knockdowns to win.

You also say ''Anytime he was up against an opponet who had solid boxing fundamentals he failed, and failed big time''

Not all of the time, as he proved when he fought Hector Camacho, who tryed to use his southpaw slipeness, and movement and boxing brain to outbox Triniadad. Trinidad showed good clever pressure to earn a decision victory.

William Joppy also try to outbox him, but Trinidad showed great timing and punching power to destroy him in 5.

Even do it was a very very faded Pernell Whitaker, Trinidad also got a decisive points victory over him.

So even do Trinidad's weak point was always a move/boxer, and probaly he lost to more he beat, i wound't say everytime he come across a boxer/mover he would be defeated.

Southpaw16BF

02-21-2009, 07:06 PM

I think utimately what makes a fighter an ATG or not is a combination of ability and accomplishments. In the case of De La Hoya I don't think anybody has ever questioned his ability. As far as his resume goes, Oscar ducked no one. Pretty much every big name fighter within 10 pounds of him is on his record. He may not have beaten all of them but in an era when champions tend to avoid dangerous opponents his record stands out. I DO consider a whether a fight was a robbery or not as I'm ill inclined to punish a fighter because he got jobbed on the cards.

The problem with the Mosley-steroids issue is that he is hardly the only one who has that cloud following him. There have been numerous allegations that Evander Holyfield used steroids. There were rumours that Mike Tyson did the same. The problem as I see it is that we would have to throw out this entire era (much as they talk of doing with baseball) if we take too hard a line on the steroid issue. I'm not sure if I'm prepared to do that.

Ray Robinson gets that singular honor from because I consider him the greatest fighter ever regardless of weight class. It may be "unfair" to others but I like things clear-cut. It's not like I'm hosing them either as I'm rating them where they were at their best. As far as I'm concerned it's more of an honor for Ezzard Charles to be rated as the greatest Light-Heavyweight ever than, say, the 15th greatest Heavyweight. I'm certainly more interested in Roberto Duran as the greatest Lightweight ever than as a past-prime Welterweight getting wacked out by Tommy Hearns.

Poet

No one can dout De La Hoya's ability, but i always thought he avoided Ronald ''Winky Wright at 154, Winky always claimed De La Hoya never wanted nothing to do with him. And i don't think i'am my own here.

The_Bringer

02-21-2009, 07:15 PM

Just beacuse Trinidad was one dimensional, his place in history shound't be douted. It matters what you do in the prize ring, wheter you do it with one dimenstion or not. Should Stanley Ketcel or Rocky Grazinao legacy be taken away just because they were one dimensional?

Trinidad also had a big heart, and in his prime had great recovery skills from getting up fron knockdowns to win.

You also say ''Anytime he was up against an opponet who had solid boxing fundamentals he failed, and failed big time''

Not all of the time, as he proved when he fought Hector Camacho, who tryed to use his southpaw slipeness, and movement and boxing brain to outbox Triniadad. Trinidad showed good clever pressure to earn a decision victory.

William Joppy also try to outbox him, but Trinidad showed great timing and punching power to destroy him in 5.

Even do it was a very very faded Pernell Whitaker, Trinidad also got a decisive points victory over him.

So even do Trinidad's weak point was always a move/boxer, and probaly be lost to more he beat, i wound't say everytime he come across a boxer/mover he would be defeated.

I said earlier that while I don't think Trinidad was a great fighter, in terms of technical abilities or ability to adapt, that I still place him as an ATG. Because, as you point out, ATG is all about accomplishment. And Trinidad has the accomplishments, one dimensional or not.

poet682006

02-21-2009, 07:18 PM

You make some very good counterpoints, as usual. But do you really think the early and mid 90's era would be that bad, as far as steroid use went?

It's certainly possible. Both Tommy Morrison and Fernando Vargas were known roid users. Look at baseball: The general assumption these days is practically everyone swinging a bat was juiced.

Poet

The_Bringer

02-21-2009, 07:27 PM

It's certainly possible. Both Tommy Morrison and Fernando Vargas were known roid users. Look at baseball: The general assumption these days is practically everyone swinging a bat was juiced.

Poet

That's a scary possibility. What part of Virginia do you live in anyway? I'm in the Bristol/Tri Cities area myself.

poet682006

02-21-2009, 07:28 PM

poet682006

02-21-2009, 07:30 PM

That's a scary possibility. What part of Virginia do you live in anyway? I'm in the Bristol/Tri Cities area myself.

I'm in Northern Virginia, near Manassas.

Poet

haploid

02-21-2009, 07:48 PM

good job. thanks for this list. only knew few of them.

just one reaction, shouldn't marco antonio barrera be lower than manny pacquiao?

warp1432

02-21-2009, 08:07 PM

Heavyweight:
1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Lewis
5. Foreman
6. Johnson
7. Holyfield
8. Frazier
9. Tyson
10. Marciano

Light Heavyweight:
1. Archie Moore
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Gene Tunney
4. Michael Spinks
5. Bob Foster
6. Roy Jones Jr.
7. Billy Conn
8. Tommy Loughran
9. Tommy Gibbons
10. Dwight Muhammad Qawi

Middleweights:
1. Marvin Hagler
2. Harry Greb
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Stanley Ketchel
5. Bernard Hopkins
6. Bob Fitzsimmons
7. Ray Robinson
8. Dick Tiger
9. Charley Burley
10. Jake Lamotta

That's all I've bothered to make. Haven't really done it for the other 14 divisions.

poet682006

02-21-2009, 08:09 PM

good job. thanks for this list. only knew few of them.

just one reaction, shouldn't marco antonio barrera be lower than manny pacquiao?

Pacquiao twice beat a past-prime Barrera, not a good meauring stick. As it stands, Pacquiao is still active and in his prime so final place is far from settled.

Poet

warp1432

02-21-2009, 08:17 PM

Pacquiao twice beat a past-prime Barrera, not a good meauring stick. As it stands, Pacquiao is still active and in his prime so final place is far from settled.

Poet

I'm curious to why you have Ray Robinson #1 at Middleweight with his inconsistency. He has a good resume there, but he is not the best there.

Southpaw16BF

02-21-2009, 08:22 PM

Pacquiao twice beat a past-prime Barrera, not a good meauring stick. As it stands, Pacquiao is still active and in his prime so final place is far from settled.

Poet

I agree with that Barrera was past his his best in the second fight, but not the first fight against Manny.

Going into the first Manny fight Barrera hadn't been beat in 3 years, and that was a fight he should of won against Erick Morales, so he had not been propley beaten since 1997, by former world champion Junior Jones. That 6 years, and he also had great wins in that run including Naseem Hamed(35-0), Erik Morales(40-0), and Johnny Tapia(52-2-2).

But there was rumours of under training due to personal problems, but you can't take nothing away from Manny's win, he destroyed Barrera, from the get go.

And after this loss to Manny, Barrea would go unbeaten for 3 years and had wins over Paulie Ayala,Erik Morales,Rocky Juarezx2, and the streak would end to current #2 P4P Juan Manuel Marquez.

And he would also end up back higher than Manny in the P4P ranking, so i just don't think Barrea was a washed fighter the first time Manny fought him ,as he proved with his record pre fight and what he when on to do after there fight.

Just my view.

wmute

02-21-2009, 08:27 PM

Foster was a beast at 175. Like Spinks, he was undefeated at that weight only losing to Heavyweights. Taking nothing away from Spinks, who's a favorite of mine, I just think Foster was a bit more dangerous.

Poet

I see where you are coming from but I would put Spinks higher based on the division (possibly the toughest 175 title fights post-WW2 -of course if the right people got their shots in the 40s, Charles, Moore and so on that would not be the case) he ruled and on his better adventure at HW (even tho... should it matter for the 175 ranking? I dunno).

wmute

02-21-2009, 08:29 PM

Honestly I'm on the fence about how good Taylor really is and whether he's good enough to be considered a near-great or not. I put him in with the near-greats because I figured SOMEONE was going to ask if I didn't include him.

Poet

I think Taylor is terribly sloppy. He is an athlete but not really a fighter. Not because he lacks heart (I don't think he lacks heart at all), but because his skills, his ring generalship are rather poor for the level of fighter he should be.

poet682006

02-21-2009, 08:33 PM

I agree with that Barrera was past his his best in the second fight, but not the first fight against Manny.

Going into the first Manny fight Barrera hadn't been beat in 3 years, and that was a fight he should of won against Erick Morales, so he had not been propley beaten since 1997, by former world champion Junior Jones. That 6 years, and he also had great wins in that run including Naseem Hamed(35-0), Erik Morales(40-0), and Johnny Tapia(52-2-2).

But there was rumours of under training due to personal problems, but you can't take nothing away from Manny's win, he destroyed Barrera, from the get go.

And after this loss to Manny, Barrea would go unbeaten for 3 years and had wins over Paulie Ayala,Erik Morales,Rocky Juarezx2, and the streak would end to current #2 P4P Juan Manuel Marquez.

And he would also end up back higher than Manny in the P4P ranking, so i just don't think Barrea was a washed fighter the first time Manny fought him ,as he proved with his record pre fight and what he when on to do after there fight.

Just my view.

I wouldn't say washed up, just no longer at his peak.

Poet

poet682006

02-21-2009, 08:37 PM

I see where you are coming from but I would put Spinks higher based on the division (possibly the toughest 175 title fights post-WW2 -of course if the right people got their shots in the 40s, Charles, Moore and so on that would not be the case) he ruled and on his better adventure at HW (even tho... should it matter for the 175 ranking? I dunno).

I guess it just comes down to which factors you give more weight to. I don't really consider what happend at Heavyweight, only their performance at 175.

Poet

reedickyaluss

02-21-2009, 08:39 PM

Poet...Im still trying to send you a 500gb hard drive and pay you to fill it lol......

Southpaw16BF

02-22-2009, 12:43 PM

I wouldn't say washed up, just no longer at his peak.

Poet

I onestly do think he peaked again, as well as his Super Bantamweight peak.

gregc

03-02-2009, 07:26 PM

Great pic https://www.mypicturehost.info/images/signature.jpghttps://www.mypicturehost.info/images/trackingpixel.gif

them_apples

03-02-2009, 11:59 PM

Kostya to me is a 140 lb great, on your list, a welterweight. I see him as a great. Morales needs to make the featherweight list also IMO.

good to see Carlos Zarate getting some love, I have him higher ranked than Ruben Olivares my self.

JAB5239

03-03-2009, 05:30 AM

good to see Carlos Zarate getting some love, I have him higher ranked than Ruben Olivares my self.

I do too, but Olivares was no joke.

1SILVA

03-03-2009, 06:21 PM

Greatwhitehope

04-16-2009, 11:58 PM

You know what drives me nuts? Someone like Gene Tunney getting ranked on Heavyweight ATG lists when he had a grand total of FIVE fights at Heavyweight in a 60+ fight career. Cripes O'Friday how can someone be an ATG in a division THEY HARDLY FOUGHT IN!!!!!

Poet

I rate Tunney as an ATG in the Heavyweights because of what he accomplished in beating Jack Dempsey and the way he did, taking a more scientific approach and watching the tapes and Dempsey and learning his weaknesses and exploiting them. To what I know he was one of the first to get really serious about a game plan rather than just trying to smash their opponents face in.

poet682006

04-17-2009, 12:07 AM

I rate Tunney as an ATG in the Heavyweights because of what he accomplished in beating Jack Dempsey and the way he did, taking a more scientific approach and watching the tapes and Dempsey and learning his weaknesses and exploiting them. To what I know he was one of the first to get really serious about a game plan rather than just trying to smash their opponents face in.

But the point still stands: He had only 5 fights at Heavyweight. An ATG at Lightheavyweight? Absolutely. Just not in a division he was there long enough to have a cup of coffee in.

Poet

poet682006

04-17-2009, 12:09 AM

Great list, but what about Ernesto Marcel and Wilfredo Gomez? Marcel defeated Arguello, and Gomez was one of the 10 best fighters of his generation

I consider Gomez a near-great. The lists of near-greats at the bottom isn't all-inclusive.

Poet

MarkScott

04-17-2009, 12:31 AM