Here in my opinion are the greatest Jr. lightweights of all-time:
Floyd Mayweather
Alexis Arguello
Sandy Saddler
Julio Cesar Chavez
Flash Elorde

Who do you feel was the greatest of these 130 pounders. If you disagree with the list, who would you subtratc and add?

Chavez by far.

arguello was a beast.

To me it was El Flaco Explosivo, great fighter.

i reckon its floyd, closely followed by arguello

I like arguello as the best ever at this weight.

i reckon its floyd, closely followed by arguello
based on so many hall of famers he beat huh,

remember the fight with the soda vendor(hall of fame opponent), that fight mustve convinced you floyd is the greatest at 130 ever, that soda vendor was unstoppable,fight was legendary and made floyd a icon in sports

Here in my opinion are the greatest Jr. lightweights of all-time:
Floyd Mayweather
Alexis Arguello
Sandy Saddler
Julio Cesar Chavez
Flash Elorde

Who do you feel was the greatest of these 130 pounders. If you disagree with the list, who would you subtratc and add?
add pac or morales, subtract floyd

Bogus division in anycase; created by the alphabet crooks to provide more title fights and sanctioning fees flowing in to their pockets.

Poet

based on so many hall of famers he beat huh,

remember the fight with the soda vendor(hall of fame opponent), that fight mustve convinced you floyd is the greatest at 130 ever, that soda vendor was unstoppable,fight was legendary and made floyd a icon in sports

That response was hilarious!!!!! Who was the soda vendor? I am a huge Mayweather fan, but that had to be the funniest jab ever taken at Mayweather. Simply priceless!!!!!!!!!

Bogus division in anycase; created by the alphabet crooks to provide more title fights and sanctioning fees flowing in to their pockets.

Poet

The division was created back in 1921, decades before the WBA and WBC bastardized the sport of boxing. It wasn't until 1969 that the WBC first recognized a 130 pound champion.

I like arguello as the best ever at this weight.

I agree with you. The list of fighters Arguello defended the 130 pound title were the most exciting 130 pounders of that generation:

Bazooka Limon
Cornelius Boza Edwards
Alfredo Escalera twice
Bobby Chacon
Ruben Castillo
Rolando Navarette

Here's a good list compiled by historian Mike Casey:

01. Alexis Arguello (Nicaragua)


02. Julio Cesar Chavez (Mexico)


03. Kid Chocolate (Cuba)


04. Sandy Saddler (USA)


05. Floyd Mayweather Jnr (USA)


06. Azumah Nelson (Ghana)


07. Alfredo Escalera (Puerto Rico)


08. Tod Morgan (USA)


09. Johnny Dundee (USA)


10. Flash Elorde (Philippines)


11. Samuel Serrano (Puerto Rico)


12. Bobby Chacon (USA)


13. Cornelius Boza Edwards (England)


14. Rafael (Bazooka) Limon (Mexico)


15. Tony Lopez (USA)


16. Benny Bass (USA)


17. Brian Mitchell (South Africa)


18. Rocky Lockridge (USA)


19. Arturo Gatti (Canada/USA)


20. Ben Villaflor (Philippines/Hawaii)

I would say

Greatest=Arguello
Best in head to head matchups=Mayweather Jr.
The one to give more trouble to Mayweather Jr. (pretending he was a little bit bigger)= Saddler

and to poet... this might be a jr. division but (like 140) it's been around forever, and its being home to many great champs. We are not talking about 108,168 or cruiserweight...

what a stupid list, arguello was a great fighter, but floyd would embarrass him.....plus floyds accomplishments at 130 are deep

theres a lot of bias against floyd in these forums, its ridiculous

Gotta have Nelson in the top 3-5 at 130.

Martinez x2
LaPorte
Ruelas x2
Leija
Grove
Fenech

He was an awesome fighter at his best. Brute strength later married with a high degree of boxing skill. The Professor was a beast.

what a stupid list, arguello was a great fighter, but floyd would embarrass him.....plus floyds accomplishments at 130 are deep

theres a lot of bias against floyd in these forums, its ridiculous

"embarass" him?

I agree that there is a bias against Mayweather (which I pick to win against anyone in 130 history), but how would he embarass arguello?

Gotta have Nelson in the top 3-5 at 130.

Martinez x2
LaPorte
Ruelas x2
Leija
Grove
Fenech

He was an awesome fighter at his best. Brute strength later married with a high degree of boxing skill. The Professor was a beast.

good point 'gringo. Where is Nelson in that list?

Gotta have Nelson in the top 3-5 at 130.

Martinez x2
LaPorte
Ruelas x2
Leija
Grove
Fenech

He was an awesome fighter at his best. Brute strength later married with a high degree of boxing skill. The Professor was a beast.

Azumah was great, but who from the top five I mentioned would you replace him with? It would be a very hard choice, as Elorde and Saddler were just as great.

"embarass" him?

I agree that there is a bias against Mayweather (which I pick to win against anyone in 130 history), but how would he embarass arguello?

Arguello couldn't deal with constant movement and Mayweather at 130 certainly was Mayweather at his greatest.

Arguello couldn't deal with constant movement and Mayweather at 130 certainly was Mayweather at his greatest.

Great point. The only loss Arguello suffered while 130 pound champion was a non-title 135 pound fight to Vilomar Fernandez. Fernandez, a light-punching mover, also gave Duran fits. I believe Floyd defeats Arguello by decision, but Arguello was the better 130 pound champion because the quality of opposition was tons better than the Pretty Boy

Arguello couldn't deal with constant movement and Mayweather at 130 certainly was Mayweather at his greatest.

"couldn't deal"? out of curiosity, are you one of those that says Mayweather "can't deal" with southpaws?

But anyway you see Mayweather "embarassing" Arguello, so you see Arguello not landing anything? Mayweather winning every round?

Like I said, I pick Mayweather against any 130 fighter in the history of the sport (and that naturally includes Arguello), but now way he is going to embarass Arguello. Even if only because he would happily give away the first few rounds, to be very sure he knows how to stay away from that right hand. Secondly Arguello is not Diego Corrales, he has boxing skills to spend. and a mountain of experience. He is going to lose the rounds, but I highly doubt he is going to look like a fool in the process. This is a competitive fight between two ATGs.

Great point. The only loss Arguello suffered while 130 pound champion was a non-title 135 pound fight to Vilomar Fernandez. Fernandez, a light-punching mover, also gave Duran fits. I believe Floyd defeats Arguello by decision, but Arguello was the better 130 pound champion because the quality of opposition was tons better than the Pretty Boy

I agree, except I don't think Arguello's 130 opposition was tons better, just better. Floyd fought Chicanito, Famoso, Jesus Chavez and Corrales at the weight. Pretty impressive if you ask me.

Azumah was great, but who from the top five I mentioned would you replace him with? It would be a very hard choice, as Elorde and Saddler were just as great.

Nelsons resume at that weight is comparable to that of Chavez, though I wouldn't necessaraly put him ahead of and doubt he would win head to head against Chavez. still, I can see and respect any argument for Nelson.

Arguello couldn't deal with constant movement and Mayweather at 130 certainly was Mayweather at his greatest.

You could be right. But Arguello's resume is better and Floyd never fought anyone at that weight like Alexis either.

JCC was the man, the best of his era at 130

JCC was the man, the best of his era at 130

Arguello stops Chavez inside of 10 assuming no referees on Don King's payroll are fixing the fight. Expect Chavez to cry for his binky afterwards.

Poet

Arguello on strength of resume claims the throne at this weight. Mayweather would certainly be championship caliber in any era however.

"couldn't deal"? out of curiosity, are you one of those that says Mayweather "can't deal" with southpaws?

But anyway you see Mayweather "embarassing" Arguello, so you see Arguello not landing anything? Mayweather winning every round?

Like I said, I pick Mayweather against any 130 fighter in the history of the sport (and that naturally includes Arguello), but now way he is going to embarass Arguello. Even if only because he would happily give away the first few rounds, to be very sure he knows how to stay away from that right hand. Secondly Arguello is not Diego Corrales, he has boxing skills to spend. and a mountain of experience. He is going to lose the rounds, but I highly doubt he is going to look like a fool in the process. This is a competitive fight between two ATGs.

I never actually said he would embarrass him, did I? Other than his HUGE punch, Arguello wouldn't bring anything out of the ordinary that Mayweather hasn't seen. Diego couldn't land on him mainly because he was just looking for one big shot and got outboxed and schooled in the process. Like you said, Arguello has great boxing skills and WILL land something on Floyd. Floyd is a master of adapting to any style and I think he will adapt to Arguello and outbox him over 12 even 15 rounds.

Arguello stops Chavez inside of 10 assuming no referees on Don King's payroll are fixing the fight. Expect Chavez to cry for his binky afterwards.

Poet

Definitely. Arguello was a HUGE puncher at 130.

anyone that voted for gayweather is retarded,

I would say

Greatest=Arguello
Best in head to head matchups=Mayweather Jr.
The one to give more trouble to Mayweather Jr. (pretending he was a little bit bigger)= Saddler

and to poet... this might be a jr. division but (like 140) it's been around forever, and its being home to many great champs. We are not talking about 108,168 or cruiserweight...

A very sound assessment, although I'm hesistant to name Saddler against Mayweather simply based on size (which you did point out). He was a huge featherweight for his era, but compared to even contemporary featherweights (much less super featherweights) he is not particularly large. In terms of skill set though you may be right, one of the dirtiest and roughest fighters of all time, with tremendous power.

I never actually said he would embarrass him, did I? Other than his HUGE punch, Arguello wouldn't bring anything out of the ordinary that Mayweather hasn't seen. Diego couldn't land on him mainly because he was just looking for one big shot and got outboxed and schooled in the process. Like you said, Arguello has great boxing skills and WILL land something on Floyd. Floyd is a master of adapting to any style and I think he will adapt to Arguello and outbox him over 12 even 15 rounds.



No you did not. But I thought you agreed to the guy I was replying to, who actually said that, since you replied to that particulaer post.

I do not think Mayweather even needs much adapting. Arguello is a great, quite complete but rather classical, and his money punch is the punch you never see landing on Mayweather. The fight would stay competitive throughout the 12-15 rounds, but it would be one of those fights, where everyone agrees who is winning. No huge shots. Maybe not even dramatic moments... Arguello would try hard and go for broke late in the fight, when behind on the cards (who would not with that right hand), but Mayweather's cold blood is his best asset, and he would not be dragged in macho exchanges.

Here in my opinion are the greatest Jr. lightweights of all-time:
Floyd Mayweather
Alexis Arguello
Sandy Saddler
Julio Cesar Chavez
Flash Elorde

Who do you feel was the greatest of these 130 pounders. If you disagree with the list, who would you subtratc and add?
arguello best jr. lightweight. chavez best lightweight, easily........

This is an interesting one. Based on skill alone, you would have to say Mayweather, but the skill alone thing doesn't really apply when looking at greatest ever lists. It's about accomplishment, who was beaten and how etc etc. If you look at lists of fighters beaten Mayweather is surprisingly lacking though he spent the most time at 130 (guys like Jesus Chavez won one of the fringe titles ages after fighting Mayweather and lost it the next fight and that is the extent of his championship days). Anyway, let's just look: One thing though, I'm not going to go into fighters being shot or anything, there's too much to discuss, but I will go into whether opponents have won titles briefly; The first opponents listed are former/future or present champions, while the second bunch listed have not won a title. I shall also list any champions or top contenders fought in non title fights.

Mayweather's title wins and defenses (9): Jesus Chavez, Diego Corrales, Carlos Hernandez, Genaro Hernandez, (champs). Angel Manfredy, Carlos Rios, Juuko, Gerena, Vargas (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Tony Pep.

Arguello title win and defenses (9): Alfredo Escalera x 2, Rafael Limon, Bobby Chacon, Ruben Castillo, Rolando Navarette (champs). Rey Tam, Diego Alcala, Arturo Leon (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Vilomar Fernandez (loss), Jose Fernandez, Godfrey Stevens.

Julio C. Chavez title wins and defenses (10): Mario Martinez, Ruben Castillo, Rocky Lockridge, Juan LaPorte, Roger Mayweather, (champs). Danilo Cabrera, Faustino Barrios, Dwight Pratchett, Refugio Rojas, Francisco Da Cruz (non champs).
Noted non title fights: Jeff Bumpus.

Saddler title wins and defenses (3): Lauro Salas (champ). Diego Sosa, Orlando Zulenta (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Jimmy Carter, Ray Famechon, Flash Elorde, Tommy Collins, Del Flanagan, Paddy DeMarco, Alfredo Escobar, Miguel Acevedo, Humberto Sierra and that is quite literally just a few of them.

Flash's title wins and defenses (12, 7 of which were the unified championship):Harold Gomes x 2, Johnny Bizzaro, Teruo Kosaka x 3, Kang II Suh, Yoshiaki Numata (titlists). Joey Lopes, Sergio Caprari, Auburn Copeland, Love Alottey, Vincente Derado, (non titlists).
Noted non-title fights: Sandy Saddler, Frankie Narvaez, Ismael Laguna, Teruo Kosaka, Solomon Boysaw, Paolo Rosi among many others.

I think it comes down to Chavez, Arguello and, in my opinion, I think Flash Surpasses them both. There are a couple of guys definitely missing though. Azumah Nelson was legendary at 130. Easily as good as Mayweather and probably a fair bit better. He made fifteen defenses of his title, against much better opposition than Mayweather also. A young Gernaro Hernandez (although many think he lost it) finally beat him, but before that he had the huge rivalry with Fenech, Leija, beat Calvin Grove, Gabe Ruelas, Mario Martinez, Jim McDonnell, Juan LaPotre etc. That's as good as anyone on this list I think. I think the top five should be Flash, Arguello, Chavez, Nelson, Hernandez etc.

But, why isn't Genaro Hernandez mentioned here? Because Mayweather beat him? It was the long end of a long title reign and his last ever fight. He beat basically the same competition that Mayweather did but made a hell of a lot more defenses against better overall fighter as well. Interesting how things work.

This is an interesting one. Based on skill alone, you would have to say Mayweather, but the skill alone thing doesn't really apply when looking at greatest ever lists. It's about accomplishment, who was beaten and how etc etc. If you look at lists of fighters beaten Mayweather is surprisingly lacking though he spent the most time at 130 (guys like Jesus Chavez won one of the fringe titles ages after fighting Mayweather and lost it the next fight and that is the extent of his championship days). Anyway, let's just look: One thing though, I'm not going to go into fighters being shot or anything, there's too much to discuss, but I will go into whether opponents have won titles briefly; The first opponents listed are former/future or present champions, while the second bunch listed have not won a title. I shall also list any champions or top contenders fought in non title fights.

Mayweather's title wins and defenses (9): Jesus Chavez, Diego Corrales, Carlos Hernandez, Genaro Hernandez, (champs). Angel Manfredy, Carlos Rios, Juuko, Gerena, Vargas (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Tony Pep.

Arguello title win and defenses (9): Alfredo Escalera x 2, Rafael Limon, Bobby Chacon, Ruben Castillo, Rolando Navarette (champs). Rey Tam, Diego Alcala, Arturo Leon (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Vilomar Fernandez (loss), Jose Fernandez, Godfrey Stevens.

Julio C. Chavez title wins and defenses (10): Mario Martinez, Ruben Castillo, Rocky Lockridge, Juan LaPorte, Roger Mayweather, (champs). Danilo Cabrera, Faustino Barrios, Dwight Pratchett, Refugio Rojas, Francisco Da Cruz (non champs).
Noted non title fights: Jeff Bumpus.

Saddler title wins and defenses (3): Lauro Salas (champ). Diego Sosa, Orlando Zulenta (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Jimmy Carter, Ray Famechon, Flash Elorde, Tommy Collins, Del Flanagan, Paddy DeMarco, Alfredo Escobar, Miguel Acevedo, Humberto Sierra and that is quite literally just a few of them.

Flash's title wins and defenses (12, 7 of which were the unified championship):Harold Gomes x 2, Johnny Bizzaro, Teruo Kosaka x 3, Kang II Suh, Yoshiaki Numata (titlists). Joey Lopes, Sergio Caprari, Auburn Copeland, Love Alottey, Vincente Derado, (non titlists).
Noted non-title fights: Sandy Saddler, Frankie Narvaez, Ismael Laguna, Teruo Kosaka, Solomon Boysaw, Paolo Rosi among many others.

I think it comes down to Chavez, Arguello and, in my opinion, I think Flash Surpasses them both. There are a couple of guys definitely missing though. Azumah Nelson was legendary at 130. Easily as good as Mayweather and probably a fair bit better. He made fifteen defenses of his title, against much better opposition than Mayweather also. A young Gernaro Hernandez (although many think he lost it) finally beat him, but before that he had the huge rivalry with Fenech, Leija, beat Calvin Grove, Gabe Ruelas, Mario Martinez, Jim McDonnell, Juan LaPotre etc. That's as good as anyone on this list I think. I think the top five should be Flash, Arguello, Chavez, Nelson, Hernandez etc.

But, why isn't Genaro Hernandez mentioned here? Because Mayweather beat him? It was the long end of a long title reign and his last ever fight. He beat basically the same competition that Mayweather did but made a hell of a lot more defenses against better overall fighter as well. Interesting how things work.

Excellent analysis except that Ruben Castillo was never a world champion. He lost his four title shots(Arguello, Salvador Sanchez, Juan Laporte and Chavez), but was a very good fighter during the 1980's. Arguello beat him in a very tough fight. By the time he fought Chavez, he had already been through one too many wars.

This is an interesting one. Based on skill alone, you would have to say Mayweather, but the skill alone thing doesn't really apply when looking at greatest ever lists. It's about accomplishment, who was beaten and how etc etc. If you look at lists of fighters beaten Mayweather is surprisingly lacking though he spent the most time at 130 (guys like Jesus Chavez won one of the fringe titles ages after fighting Mayweather and lost it the next fight and that is the extent of his championship days). Anyway, let's just look: One thing though, I'm not going to go into fighters being shot or anything, there's too much to discuss, but I will go into whether opponents have won titles briefly; The first opponents listed are former/future or present champions, while the second bunch listed have not won a title. I shall also list any champions or top contenders fought in non title fights.

Mayweather's title wins and defenses (9): Jesus Chavez, Diego Corrales, Carlos Hernandez, Genaro Hernandez, (champs). Angel Manfredy, Carlos Rios, Juuko, Gerena, Vargas (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Tony Pep.

Arguello title win and defenses (9): Alfredo Escalera x 2, Rafael Limon, Bobby Chacon, Ruben Castillo, Rolando Navarette (champs). Rey Tam, Diego Alcala, Arturo Leon (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Vilomar Fernandez (loss), Jose Fernandez, Godfrey Stevens.

Julio C. Chavez title wins and defenses (10): Mario Martinez, Ruben Castillo, Rocky Lockridge, Juan LaPorte, Roger Mayweather, (champs). Danilo Cabrera, Faustino Barrios, Dwight Pratchett, Refugio Rojas, Francisco Da Cruz (non champs).
Noted non title fights: Jeff Bumpus.

Saddler title wins and defenses (3): Lauro Salas (champ). Diego Sosa, Orlando Zulenta (non champs).
Noted non-title fights: Jimmy Carter, Ray Famechon, Flash Elorde, Tommy Collins, Del Flanagan, Paddy DeMarco, Alfredo Escobar, Miguel Acevedo, Humberto Sierra and that is quite literally just a few of them.

Flash's title wins and defenses (12, 7 of which were the unified championship):Harold Gomes x 2, Johnny Bizzaro, Teruo Kosaka x 3, Kang II Suh, Yoshiaki Numata (titlists). Joey Lopes, Sergio Caprari, Auburn Copeland, Love Alottey, Vincente Derado, (non titlists).
Noted non-title fights: Sandy Saddler, Frankie Narvaez, Ismael Laguna, Teruo Kosaka, Solomon Boysaw, Paolo Rosi among many others.

I think it comes down to Chavez, Arguello and, in my opinion, I think Flash Surpasses them both. There are a couple of guys definitely missing though. Azumah Nelson was legendary at 130. Easily as good as Mayweather and probably a fair bit better. He made fifteen defenses of his title, against much better opposition than Mayweather also. A young Gernaro Hernandez (although many think he lost it) finally beat him, but before that he had the huge rivalry with Fenech, Leija, beat Calvin Grove, Gabe Ruelas, Mario Martinez, Jim McDonnell, Juan LaPotre etc. That's as good as anyone on this list I think. I think the top five should be Flash, Arguello, Chavez, Nelson, Hernandez etc.

But, why isn't Genaro Hernandez mentioned here? Because Mayweather beat him? It was the long end of a long title reign and his last ever fight. He beat basically the same competition that Mayweather did but made a hell of a lot more defenses against better overall fighter as well. Interesting how things work.

Genaro Hernandez was not young when he beat Nelson. It was an overdue match if you ask me...

he may not be the best ever, but PBF is the best 130 lber ever.

Genaro Hernandez was not young when he beat Nelson. It was an overdue match if you ask me...

Typo. It was meant to be younger. It was definitely overdue though, I agree.

Excellent analysis except that Ruben Castillo was never a world champion. He lost his four title shots(Arguello, Salvador Sanchez, Juan Laporte and Chavez), but was a very good fighter during the 1980's. Arguello beat him in a very tough fight. By the time he fought Chavez, he had already been through one too many wars.

Yes, yes. Indeed. A little like Jesus Chavez. In most of his title shots, he met very good fighters that he just didn't have a chance against. Castillo was better than Chavez I believe, and eventually Chavez did win a title, but Castillo was unlucky to be in a time of brilliant champions and all his shots happened to be against the best of them.

Arguello stops Chavez inside of 10 assuming no referees on Don King's payroll are fixing the fight. Expect Chavez to cry for his binky afterwards.

Poet

give me a break. Arguello was dropped and taken to a split decision against a 21 year old Jose Luis Ramirez, who was Chavez's sparring partner. and you think Arguello would stop Chavez within 10?

dont make me laugh. he couldnt even stop Ruben Castillo within 10, and while Castillo was a very good fighter he was still at best a lesser Chavez.

regardless, I have Arguello #1 based on his competition, and then Mayweather. shout outs to JCC, Azumah Nelson, and Saddler. never saw much of Elorde, so cant say.

give me a break. Arguello was dropped and taken to a split decision against a 21 year old Jose Luis Ramirez, who was Chavez's sparring partner. and you think Arguello would stop Chavez within 10?

dont make me laugh. he couldnt even stop Ruben Castillo within 10, and while Castillo was a very good fighter he was still at best a lesser Chavez.

regardless, I have Arguello #1 based on his competition, and then Mayweather. shout outs to JCC, Azumah Nelson, and Saddler. never saw much of Elorde, so cant say.

Screw Julio Cesar Crybaby. Without Don King around to change his diapers nobody would know who the fvck he was.

Poet

I have Floyd over Arguello based on that I think he is the better overall fighter. Arguello fought quality opposition but so did Floyd even if Arguello fought better opposition it is not by enough for me to put him above Floyd who I feel is the better man in the ring. Those are 1-2 in my eyes though so either way is good. JCC did alright at 130 but he is below the other 2 and can be thrown into a mix of Nelson, Saddler, Elorde and possibly Genaro Hernadez the next 5 can fall into any order and it is fair.

A very sound assessment, although I'm hesistant to name Saddler against Mayweather simply based on size (which you did point out). He was a huge featherweight for his era, but compared to even contemporary featherweights (much less super featherweights) he is not particularly large. In terms of skill set though you may be right, one of the dirtiest and roughest fighters of all time, with tremendous power.

yeah Saddler clearly outsized.

Damn he was skilled. his style was perfect to make a slickster fight an ugly fight. I imagine clinching with him was painful before any punches were even thrown...

Screw Julio Cesar Crybaby. Without Don King around to change his diapers nobody would know who the fvck he was.

Poet
youre crazy. JCC would have had a fantastic record no matter what promoter he signed with.

and its not like Don King 'saved' him many times anyway. even if all of JCC's controversial fights went down as losses for him, he would still be legendary. he was already 70-0 or something and a champion in three weight classes before his first controversial fight.

youre crazy. JCC would have had a fantastic record no matter what promoter he signed with.

and its not like Don King 'saved' him many times anyway. even if all of JCC's controversial fights went down as losses for him, he would still be legendary. he was already 70-0 or something and a champion in three weight classes before his first controversial fight.

You mean 70-0 with 70 fights against local "tough guys" in Tiajuana bars? His crude, face-first low-skill approach to boxing fits right in in those venues. Three of my favorite boxing memories? Watching Binky Boy Chavez getting the **** beat out of him against De La Hoya and Tszyu.

Poet

You mean 70-0 with 70 fights against local "tough guys" in Tiajuana bars? His crude, face-first low-skill approach to boxing fits right in in those venues. Three of my favorite boxing memories? Watching Binky Boy Chavez getting the **** beat out of him against De La Hoya and Tszyu.

Poet

I love the night that Willie Wise beat the hell out of Chavez. That was one helluva beating!!!!!!

You mean 70-0 with 70 fights against local "tough guys" in Tiajuana bars? His crude, face-first low-skill approach to boxing fits right in in those venues. Three of my favorite boxing memories? Watching Binky Boy Chavez getting the **** beat out of him against De La Hoya and Tszyu.

Poettheres no point in trying to actually talk to you, but Ill try anyway.
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does that really look like a 'crude, face-first low-skill' fighter to you? cmon now.

did he beat a lot of bums? yes. I think he had about 40 fights before his first real test.

but he also had a ton of wins over future of former belt holders and fought a lot of legitimate top fighters at his different weight classes, like
-Edwin Roasrio
-Mario Martinez
-Ruben Castillo
-Roger Mayweather x2, at different weight classes
-Juan LaPorte
-Rocky Lockridge
-Jose Luis Ramirez
-Greg Haugen
-Terrance Ali
-Hector Camacho
-Lonnie Smith
-Giovanni Parisi
among others.

Chavez was obviously past prime against Tyszu and DeLaHoya. Morales was shot at even younger age than Chavez, 30, but that doesnt change the fact that he had an amazing career and is one of the best ever around his weight.

WARNING: Very long post! :lol1:

There has been a fair bit of discussion about Mayweather vs Arguello, since these guys are generally what most have at the top of the 130 division. I have Arguello above Mayweather based on opponents. Skill-wise Mayweather is at the top of the heap and with all the talk over the years of this fight I thought I would throw something out there.

There has been one guy in particular that has been overlooked, basically forgotten in fact, as a brilliant FW champ. It's understandable as he was not a hugely long reigning champ but he did retire undefeated as the champ. This guy was a fantastic defensive fighter who had very quick lateral movement and shot in counter shots from all angles. Very quick fighter.

Anyway, his last fight ever was against Arguello for the FW title. It was a great fight over fifteen and this is very similar to how I think a fight with Mayweather and Arguello would play out.

He beat Arguello with one punch in particular. Guess what it was? The lead right. His lead right was possibly the best I've ever seen. He shot it out so quick and would double, triple, sometimes throw one, step back, shoot in another, slide to an angle and shoot another. Nearly every one landed for hm on Arguello. It was very similar to the way Mayweather used it. He kind of used it as a jab nearly, that's how often he threw it, but it always landed and always took his opponent by surprise. He nearly put Arguello down numerous times throughout the fight with it.

Anyway, it was a pretty damn good fight with lots of twists and turns. It was reasonably close, but the clearer, cleaner and often harder shots were always landed on Arguello. One thing that was quite apparent was the frustration that Arguello had trying to land enough clean shots. With the quick lateral movement employed Arguello was constantly trying to get set and by the time he had had his feet planted ready to throw, he was already back out, slipped out to an angle and and shot in another counter combo. Really brilliant fight.

As usual though in an Arguello fight, towards the end he started to come on much stronger and landed some good clean shots in the last rounds and even had him briefly hurt in one round. The championship rounds were very evenly fought with neither guy getting an obvious edge and with the majority of early and middle rounds being lost by Arguello, he didn't have much chance of winning a decision. This is how I would see a fight between Mayweather and Alexis going though. Mayweather winning the early and middle rounds with sharp counter punching, great defense and movement and frustrating Arguello while Arguello comes on stronger in the late rounds but not enough to knock him out or win.

Anyway, his name is Ernesto Marcel. He had a record of 40-4-2. Two of his losses came very early in his career and both were avenged easily. One of his other losses was a supposedly shocking hometown decision to a fighter in Venezuela later in his career. I think the Venezuelan's may have had something of a dislike for him as he beat two of their finest champions. Anyway, he was supposedly robbed blind in a non-title, tune-up fight. His only other loss, and really the only proper loss of his career came to the great Roberto Duran when Duran was a young FW. He won by TKO in the only stoppage loss of Marcel's career.

His first title fight was another supposed robbery when he was only given a draw in Japan against the revered Japanese champion Kuniaki Shibata. One Japanese judge had what was meant to be the right decision of 71-65 for Marcel, with the other 71-71 and 69-71 for the Japanese fighter. Nonetheless, Shibata was a great champion and it shows how good Marcel was that he was meant to have beaten him so well despite the decision.

He also beat other great champions such as the aforementioned Alexis Arguello, Antonio Gomez twice, Alfredo Mercano twice, the legendary Samuel Serrano, the great Colombian fighter Bernado Caraballo (who sadly was only able to get two title shots against the greats Eder Jofre and Fighting Harada and lost both, but also beat other greats like Pascual Perez), and some other fine contenders of the day like Spider Nemeto, Ramiro Bolanos, Miguel Riasco etc etc.

Anyway, he was nominated for the HOF last year. Not too sure if he got in or not, but he is an often overlooked fighter with some legendary names on his record and a truly great fighter that was rather similar to Mayweather though with a fair bit more quick in and out type movement.

WARNING: Very long post! :lol1:

There has been a fair bit of discussion about Mayweather vs Arguello, since these guys are generally what most have at the top of the 130 division. I have Arguello above Mayweather based on opponents. Skill-wise Mayweather is at the top of the heap and with all the talk over the years of this fight I thought I would throw something out there.

There has been one guy in particular that has been overlooked, basically forgotten in fact, as a brilliant FW champ. It's understandable as he was not a hugely long reigning champ but he did retire undefeated as the champ. This guy was a fantastic defensive fighter who had very quick lateral movement and shot in counter shots from all angles. Very quick fighter.

Anyway, his last fight ever was against Arguello for the FW title. It was a great fight over fifteen and this is very similar to how I think a fight with Mayweather and Arguello would play out.

He beat Arguello with one punch in particular. Guess what it was? The lead right. His lead right was possibly the best I've ever seen. He shot it out so quick and would double, triple, sometimes throw one, step back, shoot in another, slide to an angle and shoot another. Nearly every one landed for hm on Arguello. It was very similar to the way Mayweather used it. He kind of used it as a jab nearly, that's how often he threw it, but it always landed and always took his opponent by surprise. He nearly put Arguello down numerous times throughout the fight with it.

Anyway, it was a pretty damn good fight with lots of twists and turns. It was reasonably close, but the clearer, cleaner and often harder shots were always landed on Arguello. One thing that was quite apparent was the frustration that Arguello had trying to land enough clean shots. With the quick lateral movement employed Arguello was constantly trying to get set and by the time he had had his feet planted ready to throw, he was already back out, slipped out to an angle and and shot in another counter combo. Really brilliant fight.

As usual though in an Arguello fight, towards the end he started to come on much stronger and landed some good clean shots in the last rounds and even had him briefly hurt in one round. The championship rounds were very evenly fought with neither guy getting an obvious edge and with the majority of early and middle rounds being lost by Arguello, he didn't have much chance of winning a decision. This is how I would see a fight between Mayweather and Alexis going though. Mayweather winning the early and middle rounds with sharp counter punching, great defense and movement and frustrating Arguello while Arguello comes on stronger in the late rounds but not enough to knock him out or win.

Anyway, his name is Ernesto Marcel. He had a record of 40-4-2. Two of his losses came very early in his career and both were avenged easily. One of his other losses was a supposedly shocking hometown decision to a fighter in Venezuela later in his career. I think the Venezuelan's may have had something of a dislike for him as he beat two of their finest champions. Anyway, he was supposedly robbed blind in a non-title, tune-up fight. His only other loss, and really the only proper loss of his career came to the great Roberto Duran when Duran was a young FW. He won by TKO in the only stoppage loss of Marcel's career.

His first title fight was another supposed robbery when he was only given a draw in Japan against the revered Japanese champion Kuniaki Shibata. One Japanese judge had what was meant to be the right decision of 71-65 for Marcel, with the other 71-71 and 69-71 for the Japanese fighter. Nonetheless, Shibata was a great champion and it shows how good Marcel was that he was meant to have beaten him so well despite the decision.

He also beat other great champions such as the aforementioned Alexis Arguello, Antonio Gomez twice, Alfredo Mercano twice, the legendary Samuel Serrano, the great Colombian fighter Bernado Caraballo (who sadly was only able to get two title shots against the greats Eder Jofre and Fighting Harada and lost both, but also beat other greats like Pascual Perez), and some other fine contenders of the day like Spider Nemeto, Ramiro Bolanos, Miguel Riasco etc etc.

Anyway, he was nominated for the HOF last year. Not too sure if he got in or not, but he is an often overlooked fighter with some legendary names on his record and a truly great fighter that was rather similar to Mayweather though with a fair bit more quick in and out type movement.

Excellent post! Well thought out analysis and informative. Can't give you green K again just yet, but I would urge any other objective poster to do so.:hail:

WARNING: Very long post! :lol1:

There has been a fair bit of discussion about Mayweather vs Arguello, since these guys are generally what most have at the top of the 130 division. I have Arguello above Mayweather based on opponents. Skill-wise Mayweather is at the top of the heap and with all the talk over the years of this fight I thought I would throw something out there.

There has been one guy in particular that has been overlooked, basically forgotten in fact, as a brilliant FW champ. It's understandable as he was not a hugely long reigning champ but he did retire undefeated as the champ. This guy was a fantastic defensive fighter who had very quick lateral movement and shot in counter shots from all angles. Very quick fighter.

Anyway, his last fight ever was against Arguello for the FW title. It was a great fight over fifteen and this is very similar to how I think a fight with Mayweather and Arguello would play out.

He beat Arguello with one punch in particular. Guess what it was? The lead right. His lead right was possibly the best I've ever seen. He shot it out so quick and would double, triple, sometimes throw one, step back, shoot in another, slide to an angle and shoot another. Nearly every one landed for hm on Arguello. It was very similar to the way Mayweather used it. He kind of used it as a jab nearly, that's how often he threw it, but it always landed and always took his opponent by surprise. He nearly put Arguello down numerous times throughout the fight with it.

Anyway, it was a pretty damn good fight with lots of twists and turns. It was reasonably close, but the clearer, cleaner and often harder shots were always landed on Arguello. One thing that was quite apparent was the frustration that Arguello had trying to land enough clean shots. With the quick lateral movement employed Arguello was constantly trying to get set and by the time he had had his feet planted ready to throw, he was already back out, slipped out to an angle and and shot in another counter combo. Really brilliant fight.

As usual though in an Arguello fight, towards the end he started to come on much stronger and landed some good clean shots in the last rounds and even had him briefly hurt in one round. The championship rounds were very evenly fought with neither guy getting an obvious edge and with the majority of early and middle rounds being lost by Arguello, he didn't have much chance of winning a decision. This is how I would see a fight between Mayweather and Alexis going though. Mayweather winning the early and middle rounds with sharp counter punching, great defense and movement and frustrating Arguello while Arguello comes on stronger in the late rounds but not enough to knock him out or win.

Anyway, his name is Ernesto Marcel. He had a record of 40-4-2. Two of his losses came very early in his career and both were avenged easily. One of his other losses was a supposedly shocking hometown decision to a fighter in Venezuela later in his career. I think the Venezuelan's may have had something of a dislike for him as he beat two of their finest champions. Anyway, he was supposedly robbed blind in a non-title, tune-up fight. His only other loss, and really the only proper loss of his career came to the great Roberto Duran when Duran was a young FW. He won by TKO in the only stoppage loss of Marcel's career.

His first title fight was another supposed robbery when he was only given a draw in Japan against the revered Japanese champion Kuniaki Shibata. One Japanese judge had what was meant to be the right decision of 71-65 for Marcel, with the other 71-71 and 69-71 for the Japanese fighter. Nonetheless, Shibata was a great champion and it shows how good Marcel was that he was meant to have beaten him so well despite the decision.

He also beat other great champions such as the aforementioned Alexis Arguello, Antonio Gomez twice, Alfredo Mercano twice, the legendary Samuel Serrano, the great Colombian fighter Bernado Caraballo (who sadly was only able to get two title shots against the greats Eder Jofre and Fighting Harada and lost both, but also beat other greats like Pascual Perez), and some other fine contenders of the day like Spider Nemeto, Ramiro Bolanos, Miguel Riasco etc etc.

Anyway, he was nominated for the HOF last year. Not too sure if he got in or not, but he is an often overlooked fighter with some legendary names on his record and a truly great fighter that was rather similar to Mayweather though with a fair bit more quick in and out type movement.

Thanks for the analysis on the great Ernesto Marcel. About 10 years ago, ESPN Classic broadcast the Marcel-Arguello fight and I missed it. Never to be aired again. I always wondered why he retired so early. In his next title opportunity, Arguello ko'd Olivares. Marcel deserves to be in the HOF on the basis that he was able to defeat such a great fighter as Arguello alone. Has anyone have any info on another totally ignored 126 pound champ with a lengthy reign, Antonio Esparagoza? I don't believe any of his fights were ever televised in the U.S.

Has anyone have any info on another totally ignored 126 pound champ with a lengthy reign, Antonio Esparagoza? I don't believe any of his fights were ever televised in the U.S.


I want to say that I saw Esparagoza fight on television in the mid to late 80's. Glancing at his record though, it could have only been against Steve Cruz.

Arguello.....

You have to include Pacquiaos run at 130, Morales, Barrera, Valezquez, Solis, Larios

Don't care what any of you say Floyd was the best at that weight. Just ask any of the champs he beat down at that weight and I'm sure they will tell you.

You have to include Pacquiaos run at 130, Morales, Barrera, Valezquez, Solis, Larios

Yeah, Manny has to rank up there. I don't think he surpasses Arguello or Floyd, but he's up there.

Don't care what any of you say Floyd was the best at that weight. Just ask any of the champs he beat down at that weight and I'm sure they will tell you.

Wow, you're so open minded and objective. Im sure you're going to be a star on these boards.

Yeah, Manny has to rank up there. I don't think he surpasses Arguello or Floyd, but he's up there.

Yea I agree, I just thought he should be on the list also.

Yea I agree, I just thought he should be on the list also.

I'll throw another name in the hat.....Azumah Nelson. Would have loved to see him fight Pac, Barrera, Floyd, Morales, arguello or Marquez. He wouldn't win them all, but he would be in every fight. This guy was a joy to watch.

Manny would be a force at 130, but not based on his run against old featherweights (except Marquez who was still kicking ass).

His first win against Barrera is great (but it was at 126). The second one does not mean much at all.

I'll throw another name in the hat.....Azumah Nelson. Would have loved to see him fight Pac, Barrera, Floyd, Morales, arguello or Marquez. He wouldn't win them all, but he would be in every fight. This guy was a joy to watch.

Nelson is a fighter you basically have to love. He is a hardcore boxing fan dream.

based on so many hall of famers he beat huh,
remember the fight with the soda vendor.....

I'm using that line on somebody, someday! The "Soda Vendor"!
I can't stop giggling....

And it just came out so naturally, like that was his real moniker or something!

I'm using that line on somebody, someday! The "Soda Vendor"!
I can't stop giggling....

And it just came out so naturally, like that was his real moniker or something!

Priceless quote. By the way, who was that soda vendor?