prime for prime who wins?

Rocky Marciano

Is this a joke? Rocky by death.

Is this a joke? Rocky by death.

Lol! That cracked me up

I was thinking about this a while back.

Rocky on a same day weigh in came in at 186

Hopkins these days is coming to fight at around 175

Rocky is 5'10 Hopkins is 6'1

Rocky would look like the stockier dude that's for sure, he'd win by wearing Hopkins down. Small chance of him getting fooled by his own one dimensionalism. Rocky is as one dimensional as they come.

:why:

Hopkins Is Great but not on the same Page As The Brockton Blockbuster Sorry

:why:

Hopkins Is Great but not on the same Page As The Brockton Blockbuster Sorry

in terms of achievements and p4p he is. The block buster is only famous because of his undefeated record, his resume doesn't stack up.

Marciano knocked out the Heavyweight version of Hopkins twice in Walcott. Not sure I can see prime Bernard Hopkins overcoming the near 30 lb weight disadvantage to do any better. I would be surprised if a 180 lb Hopkins faired any better than Matthews; a former LHW defensive minded contender who carried his speed to heavy and slicked his way out of the first round before Marciano stopped him cold with a double left hook.

What's next? Hopkins/Dempsey? Hopkins/Tyson?

Marciano knocked out the Heavyweight version of Hopkins twice in Walcott. Not sure I can see prime Bernard Hopkins overcoming the near 30 lb weight disadvantage to do any better. I would be surprised if a 180 lb Hopkins faired any better than Matthews; a natural 175 lber LHW contender who carried his speed to heavy and slicked his way out of the first round before Marciano jabbed the **** out of him and stopped him cold with a double left hook.

What's next? Hopkins/Dempsey? Hopkins/Tyson?

that's not a very good assessment, for 1 - Walcott doesn't fight like Hopkins at all, 2 he was old as the hills and past it. If I recall Walcott was giving Marciano hell in the first fight untill he got caught. When has Hopkins been caught? Hopkins is a defensive first fighter.

Now that i look at it, Marciano was probably just that bad.

that's not a very good assessment, for 1 - Walcott doesn't fight like Hopkins at all, 2 he was old as the hills and past it. If I recall Walcott was giving Marciano hell in the first fight untill he got caught. When has Hopkins been caught? Hopkins is a defensive first fighter.

Now that i look at it, Marciano was probably just that bad.

I like how you state Hopkins is a defensive first fighter as if to imply Walcott wasn't.

“I just used the moves of Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles and [Archie] the Mongoose Moore, to keep him spinning and rolling my shoulders and get out of there,” explained Hopkins.

"I could fight another four years if I wanted," Hopkins said Saturday night after retaining the Ring magazine light heavyweight title with a unanimous decision vs. Winky Wright. "I'm cut from the cloth of the old Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Henry Armstrong tradition. Those are people I look up to."

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2gB09VEEZvM&feature=related

Walcott/Louis I


http://youtube.com/watch?v=phATN3XWbwA

Hopkins/Tarver

Sorry but if you can't see the almost identical movements and stylistic approaches of both men than you have no business analyzing boxing my friend. For the record Walcott is considerablly better on his feet but Hopkins certainly did well in imitating almost everything else. Also the terms "over the hill and past it" mean little to either man as both peaked and stayed at the elite level way beyond their 30s. There are also many more variables to consider than the primitive conculsion of "Walcott got caught, Hopkins never did."

“I just used the moves of Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles and [Archie] the Mongoose Moore, to keep him spinning and rolling my shoulders and get out of there,” explained Hopkins.

"I could fight another four years if I wanted," Hopkins said Saturday night after retaining the Ring magazine light heavyweight title with a unanimous decision vs. Winky Wright. "I'm cut from the cloth of the old Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Henry Armstrong tradition. Those are people I look up to."

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2gB09VEEZvM&feature=related

Walcott/Louis I


http://youtube.com/watch?v=phATN3XWbwA

Hopkins/Tarver

Sorry but if you can't see the almost identical movements of both men than you shouldn't be analyzing boxing. For the record Walcott is considerablly better on his feet though. Also the terms "over the hill and past it" mean little to either man as both peaked and stayed at the elite level beyond their 30s.

Other than the shoulder slipping, I don't see the resemblance, regardless if he says he looks up to them. Walcott liked to show boat, that's something Hopkins doesn't do, he's very fundamental.

Really, Walcott to me is a "slippery" fighter, does unorthodox things coupled with traditional boxing skills. Hopkins is purely fundamental with some great slips and timing thrown in there. Hopkins also likes to fight in the clinch.

I'm curious how you assess these videos. I have only seen Walcotts big fights, to me he doesn't have better feet than Hopkins - I just can't see how you came to that conclusion. I think he's got the better jab and heavier hands however.

Hopkins never drops his guard and always tucks his chin, Walcott frequently drops his hands to get his opponents to throw punches at him so he can slip and counter. Hopkins will occasionally drop his left, but never walks around with both hands down.

the only hint of similarity i see is the way Hopkins pops his right over his opponents jab while circling to his right (or left).

Without that fluky shot he landed on Walcott he would have lost, I don't see him landing a fluky shot on Hopkins.

I'm a pretty big Hopkins fan I must say, I have a lot of his fights in my collection, but that's my take. Marciano isn't going to have "heavyweight size" over Hopkins, he comes to fight with about 10 lbs at best over B-Hop.

Other than the shoulder slipping, I don't see the resemblance, regardless if he says he looks up to them. Walcott liked to show boat, that's something Hopkins doesn't do, he's very fundamental.

Hopkins never drops his guard and always tucks his chin, Walcott frequently drops his hands to get his opponents to throw punches at him so he can slip and counter. Hopkins will occasionally drop his left, but never walks around with both hands down.

I'm a pretty big Hopkins fan I must say, I have a lot of his fights in my collection, but that's my take. Marciano isn't going to have "heavyweight size" over Hopkins, he comes to fight with about 10 lbs at best over B-Hop.

The difference in footwork is obvious. Your splitting hairs with everything else. At any rate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uawi5ueyiI4

Hopkins/Tarver Round 10

-Hopkins dropping his hands and showboating against Tarver.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5yR5lwL_y0

-Hopkins looking for the late KO against Pavlik.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uCpJ0bm6RI

-Louis makes Walcott pay for doing the same things. Walcott got ****y but no more ****y than Hopkins did in fights that were in the bag; if Pavlik or Tarver were of Louis' class who knows? ****iness isn't what led to Walcott getting caught by Marciano anyway; a much more grueling back and forth match than the scorecards implied though Jersey Joe certainly deserved to be ahead. Rocky's constant pressure, occasional counters, physical power in the clinch, and body work took a toll.

The difference in footwork is obvious. Your splitting hairs with everything else. At any rate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uawi5ueyiI4

Hopkins/Tarver Round 10

-Hopkins dropping his hands and showboating against Tarver.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5yR5lwL_y0

-Hopkins looking for the late KO against Pavlik.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uCpJ0bm6RI

-Louis makes Walcott pay for doing the same things. Walcott got ****y but no more ****y than Hopkins did in fights that were in the bag; if Pavlik or Tarver were of Louis' class who knows? ****iness isn't what led to Walcott getting caught by Marciano anyway; a much more grueling back and forth match than the scorecards implied though Jersey Joe certainly deserved to be ahead. Rocky's constant pressure and body work out of the clinches as well as his counter punching took a toll.

Thread also mentions prime Hopkins who rarely fought above 160 and would in fact be over 20+ lbs lighter at the least. LHW Hopkins would still be more than a dime lighter give or take; probably a more fair match up but the extra weight won't make a huge difference. Walcott was a strong effective clincher at 198 lb but Marciano's power and pressure even wore him down.

Hopkins showed a pretty controlled aggression even when assaulting Pavlik, Walcott's aggression left him open to be tagged. Everyone fights differently, Hopkins is safety first, hence - no KO. Walcott was much more advantageous when going for the KO - loading up and putting everything behind it, but doing so sometimes leaves you open.

a Prime Hopkins at 160 is clearly to small, but at 175 I can't see a slow one dimensional fighter like Marciano beating him. People seem to think Marciano is going to be to big and punch to hard but fail to recognize his hardest fights were against washed up LHW's, a division Hopkins fits nicely into.

Completely don't agree with you about Walcott having better footwork, whats your definition of good footwork? there is a lot more to it than bouncing on your toes for long periods of time.

an example would be Hopkins aligning his left foot outside his opponents right foot, taking a small step forward and throwing the right cross at 8 O'clock. doing this takes incredible timing of footwork, usually done after a couple feints, but it's one of the moves he uses to land his right hand flush.

I think you are confused with the notion of "good footwork". Bouncing on your toes improves your reaction time and almost works as a constant mini "feint" but footwork goes much beyond that. Most people look at Duran and think "meh" in terms of footwork, when really he was using a lot of well placed steps. A more modern example would be Pacquiao vs De La hoya. Incredible footwork.

"Hopkins showed a pretty controlled aggression even when assaulting Pavlik, Walcott's aggression left him open to be tagged. Everyone fights differently, Hopkins is safety first, hence - no KO. Walcott was much more advantageous when going for the KO - loading up and putting everything behind it, but doing so sometimes leaves you open."

Oh please, Hopkins was working Pavlik over like a heavybag while he was winding up, running his mouth, and laughing. Louis ate Walcott's signature counter left to come back with an impossibly accurate combination of powerpunches. A confused and broken Pavlik just hid behind his gloves and prayed.


"Completely don't agree with you about Walcott having better footwork, whats your definition of good footwork? there is a lot more to it than bouncing on your toes for long periods of time."

If that's what you think of Walcott's footwork your not worth anymore of my time. Good day. Yeeesh, Walcott didn't even bounce on his toes that much to be effective.

Also, funny that to Marciano haters Walcott and Charles will forever be known as washed up light heavies. I guess their World Heavyweight Title reigns mean nothing...

i can NOT Beleave you are acually think Hopkins would beat Rocky, ROcky isnt just a Good fighter, he is one of the best heavyweights of all time, Give me a damn break, I like B Hop but come on now. Lets jump back into reality

yea I really do, aside from punching power what does rocky have? he almost lost to older LHW's, why shouldn't Hopkins pick him apart, he's a good light heavyweight with sound defense.

Rocky is extremely overrated, he's lucky he didn't run into Liston or even Patterson.

All he has to do is land that right and thats bhops first ko loss right there!!!!

yea I really do, aside from punching power what does rocky have? he almost lost to older LHW's, why shouldn't Hopkins pick him apart, he's a good light heavyweight with sound defense.

Rocky is extremely overrated, he's lucky he didn't run into Liston or even Patterson.

WHAT!!!! PATERSON!!!! mmmmm Rocky by death!!!!

All he has to do is land that right and thats bhops first ko loss right there!!!!

can you tell me how the slow telegraphed right hand of Marciano is going to find its way to Bernard Hopkins chin.

Marciano beats Hopkins in a 15 round fight just like he beat Walcott, Charles and Moore.

Nothing to do with his skill (although he was a little better as a boxer than given credit for) but rather his strength, power, conditioning and heart.

Prime Hopkins weighs only 160 lbs so I assume we are talking about the 40+ year old 180+ lb version who I doubt would be able to keep up with Rocky for 15 rounds. He couldn't do it for 12 with Calzaghe.

THIS IS RUBBISH,

Rocky Would beat The Crap out of B Hop.
This match up shows how little you know about Rocky.
Stop embarrising yourself and learn more about Rocky, Because you lack knowledge.The Only 2 fighters i see giving Rocky trouble is Foreman and Ali, And no way in hell is B-Hop in there league.

After Joe Louis Was KOed by Rocky he Said
"I Would have lost to Rocky even in my prime, His style is just not good for me"

Walcott After Rocky fight.
"I have fought men , and the next morning i have had pain on a rib or on my jaw, But Rocky is the only man that when i woke up , i felt like i was put through a meat grinder"


B-Hop , is Great but he doesn't stand a chance in the ring with Rocky, This is the last time i am commenting on this subject because its so laughable.

Learn more about Rocky, and you will laugh that you even considered B - Hop beating him.


and you say what did rocky have?

well He had his Right hand, His Left hand, Incredible stamina , amazing heart ,A Will to Always Win, Iron chin, and he also had a record of 49-0 and B-Hop would not make it
49 - 1 LMFAO

WHAT A JOKE

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Archie Moore

Marciano beats Hopkins in a 15 round fight just like he beat Walcott, Charles and Moore.

Nothing to do with his skill (although he was a little as a boxer than given credit for) but rather his strength, power, conditioning and heart.

Prime Hopkins weighs only 160 lbs so I assume we are talking about the 40+ year old 180+ lb version who I doubt would be able to keep up with Rocky for 15 rounds. He couldn't do it for 12 with Calzaghe.


yea but Calzaghe is quick, looking at Pavlik you would think he couldn't keep up with him ether (slow pressure fighter) Hopkins is quicker than Marciano and he's taller+reach.

THIS IS RUBBISH,

Rocky Would beat The Crap out of B Hop.
This match up shows how little you know about Rocky.
Stop embarrising yourself and learn more about Rocky, Because you lack knowledge.The Only 2 fighters i see giving Rocky trouble is Foreman and Ali, And no way in hell is B-Hop in there league.

I don't think it's an impossible thought actually.

40 year old Hopkins weighs about the same as Rocky and is more skilled, the problem is he doesn't have a chance of keeping it up for 15 rounds against Marciano like Walcott, Charles and Moore couldn't.

The smaller guys are sometimes harder to fight than the bigger heavyweights as Billy Conn showed against Louis, Cooper against Ali, Charles and Moore against Marciano and so on.

THIS IS RUBBISH,

Rocky Would beat The Crap out of B Hop.
This match up shows how little you know about Rocky.
Stop embarrising yourself and learn more about Rocky, Because you lack knowledge.The Only 2 fighters i see giving Rocky trouble is Foreman and Ali, And no way in hell is B-Hop in there league.

After Joe Louis Was KOed by Rocky he Said
"I Would have lost to Rocky even in my prime, His style is just not good for me"

Walcott After Rocky fight.
"I have fought men , and the next morning i have had pain on a rib or on my jaw, But Rocky is the only man that when i woke up , i felt like i was put through a meat grinder"


B-Hop , is Great but he doesn't stand a chance in the ring with Rocky, This is the last time i am commenting on this subject because its so laughable.

Learn more about Rocky, and you will laugh that you even considered B - Hop beating him.


and you say what did rocky have?

well He had his Right hand, His Left hand, Incredible stamina , amazing heart ,A Will to Always Win, Iron chin, and he also had a record of 49-0 and B-Hop would not make it
49 - 1 LMFAO

WHAT A JOKE


stop embarrassing yourself and nuthugging rocky

Walcott was a LHW, Walcott would have beat on rocky's bones given he didn't drop his hands (presumably from gassing due to old age).

You seem to think Rocky will have some massive size advantage, which he won't, he was a cruiser weight, and a small one at that.

yea but Calzaghe is quick, looking at Pavlik you would think he couldn't keep up with him ether (slow pressure fighter) Hopkins is quicker than Marciano and he's taller+reach.

The problem with Pavlik is that he is afraid to throw when someone throws punches at him. Hopkins' took away all of his workrate with counter punching and movement.

Walcott, Charles and Moore did the same to Marciano but they just couldn't keep him off them for the full 15 round distance and it's not because they were lesser boxers than Hopkins was.

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Look at this for example, Moore counter punches well, moves well but he just can't hurt Rocky enough to make him go backwards.

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stop embarrassing yourself and nuthugging rocky

Walcott was a LHW, Walcott would have beat on rocky's bones given he didn't drop his hands (presumably from gassing due to old age).

You seem to think Rocky will have some massive size advantage, which he won't, he was a cruiser weight, and a small one at that.

Actually Walcott never weighed less than 190 lbs in his career. He was always a heavyweight and bigger than Marciano.

Moore and Charles were former light heavyweights though, although they actually mostly fought at 180-190 lbs against top heavyweights. They just could make the 175 lbs weight limit as well.

The problem with Pavlik is that he is afraid to throw when someone throws punches at him. Hopkins' took away all of his workrate with counter punching and movement.

Walcott, Charles and Moore did the same to Marciano but they just couldn't keep him off them for the full 15 round distance and it's not because they were lesser boxers than Hopkins was.

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Look at this for example, Moore counter punches well, moves well but he just can't hurt Rocky enough to make him go backwards.

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I don't know, i'm still not convinced, even Calzaghe almost lost to Hopkins and he was throwing punches non stop. I don't think Rocky would be quick enough to land any convincing shots on a defensive boxer like B-Hop. Another factor is all the clinching and tangling up Hopkins would endow on Marciano, especially with his height advantage.

can you tell me how the slow telegraphed right hand of Marciano is going to find its way to Bernard Hopkins chin.

I see your point. itd prob have to be a 15 rounder as it did take him 13 rounds and 43 seconds to land that perfect one on the extreemly elusive and slipery walcott:boxing:

Actually Walcott never weighed less than 190 lbs in his career. He was always a heavyweight and bigger than Marciano.

Moore and Charles were former light heavyweights though, although they actually mostly fought at 180-190 lbs against top heavyweights. They just could make the 175 lbs weight limit as well.

Box rec has him coming in as low as 158 for some of his fights.

he also has a slew of early fights that look to be about super middleweight by todays standards..

Box rec has him coming in as low as 158 for some of his fights.

he also has a slew of early fights that look to be about super middleweight by todays standards..

He was a kid then, around 15-17 years old and starving as well (Walcott actually fought for food early in his career).

By 25 years of age he never weighed below 190 lbs. Weighed 197 vs Rocky.

i can NOT Beleave you are acually think Hopkins would beat Rocky, ROcky isnt just a Good fighter, he is one of the best heavyweights of all time, Give me a damn break, I like B Hop but come on now. Lets jump back into reality


Damn straight, Rooster! Good post.

This thread is a slap in the face to The Rock. No one was more devastating in that ring than Marciano. Guys he fought against said just bumping into him hurt like hell. He never entered the ring at less than 110%, he only grew stronger as fights progressed, and his massive fists were absolutely lethal agents of destruction. You could outbox him, you could split his nose in half, you could gore him.. you just couldn't beat him. Even Joe Louis said after their fight that he could never have beaten Marciano.

This thread sucks

Marciano by brutal KO

lol Bernard would outclass this guy, all you have to do is look at the videos and compare.
Why couldnt Popkins move up to cruiseweight?
Weight is overrated and wont be an issue because skillwise Bernard is lightyears ahead of Rocky.

lol Bernard would outclass this guy, all you have to do is look at the videos and compare.
Why couldnt Popkins move up to cruiseweight?
Weight is overrated and wont be an issue because skillwise Bernard is lightyears ahead of Rocky.

Rocky only has 10 lbs on nard' can't see the one dimensional Rocky beating Nard'.

Rocky only has 10 lbs on nard' can't see the one dimensional Rocky beating Nard'.



I swear you make these ignorant posts just to be argumentative.

lol Bernard would outclass this guy, all you have to do is look at the videos and compare.
Why couldnt Popkins move up to cruiseweight?
Weight is overrated and wont be an issue because skillwise Bernard is lightyears ahead of Rocky.

Well skillwise Ezzard Charles was light years ahead of Hopkins.. didn't stop the Rock from beating his ass twice.

You guys don't seem to understand what kind of warrior Rocky Marciano was. They truly don't make fighters like that anymore.

Well skillwise Ezzard Charles was light years ahead of Hopkins.. didn't stop the Rock from beating his ass twice.

You guys don't seem to understand what kind of warrior Rocky Marciano was. They truly don't make fighters like that anymore.


Charles was a great fighter, but light years ahead? wTf are you smoking

It would be a good fight, my Hopkins bias - tells me he'd win.

I swear you make these ignorant posts just to be argumentative.

speaking of ignorant posts, lets talk about knighte

stop embarrassing yourself and nuthugging rocky

Walcott was a LHW, Walcott would have beat on rocky's bones given he didn't drop his hands (presumably from gassing due to old age).

You seem to think Rocky will have some massive size advantage, which he won't, he was a cruiser weight, and a small one at that.

:bsflag:










GIve Yourself An Uppercut

:bsflag:










GIve Yourself An Uppercut

you don't think a prime Walcott wins against rocky? I see him beating his ass.

you don't think a prime Walcott wins against rocky? I see him beating his ass.

The only guys I can envision beating Marciano are monster power punchers like Foreman and Tua, guys capable of ridiculously overpowering him.

It wasn't enough just to outbox the guy.

Sonny Liston, the least articulate of men, gave this tribute to The Rock upon the latter's death: "This man was one of the greatest champions ever. He refused to accept defeat. And no one ever beat him."

The only guys I can envision beating Marciano are monster power punchers like Foreman and Tua, guys capable of ridiculously overpowering him.

It wasn't enough just to outbox the guy.

Sonny Liston, the least articulate of men, gave this tribute to The Rock upon the latter's death: "This man was one of the greatest champions ever. He refused to accept defeat. And no one ever beat him."

Liston was being nice, he would keep rocky at the end up his jab all night and knock him out in the 10th.

Liston was being nice, he would keep rocky at the end up his jab all night and knock him out in the 10th.


Nobody kept Rocky at the end of a jab. I think Liston was basically a coward who would fold under Marciano's relentless pressure even quicker than he folded under the technical superiority of Ali.

Marciano knocked out the Heavyweight version of Hopkins twice in Walcott. Not sure I can see prime Bernard Hopkins overcoming the near 30 lb weight disadvantage to do any better. I would be surprised if a 180 lb Hopkins faired any better than Matthews; a former LHW defensive minded contender who carried his speed to heavy and slicked his way out of the first round before Marciano stopped him cold with a double left hook.

What's next? Hopkins/Dempsey? Hopkins/Tyson?

I personally don't think Walcott was on the same level as Hopkins as far as consistency and all time great wise, but he was obviously the bigger man and most likely would have been a better at heavyweight, but we won't find out and will never know since Bernard never fought at heavyweight and only moved to light heavyweight when he was about 42 years old. That's why i can't make an official prediction.

With that being said, i don't think its a big of a mismatch that some people are making it out to be. Hopkins is 6'1 and he fought at 175, which is only about 10-15 pounds away from what Marciano weighed during some of his fights. If Bernard could keep his speed while moving up, things could have been interesting.

Nobody kept Rocky at the end of a jab. I think Liston was basically a coward who would fold under Marciano's relentless pressure even quicker than he folded under the technical superiority of Ali.

Interesting, because most people feel Liston would have scored a dramatic Frazier/Foreman like blow away of Marciano.

If "most people" told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?

IMO hopkins wins and wins easily, he is far more skilled than anyone Marciano ever faced. Prime B-Hop wins this fight 6th round stoppage, unless Marciano lands the bomb he has nothing on B-Hop

If "most people" told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?

LOL I'm just trying to help you out, because you need it if you actually think that Marciano would get a bigger Liston to fold under pressure. Ali frustrated him with with jab and foot speed. Marciano would not be coming at Liston, soaking up his punches and keep coming forward? Its just something that i don't see.

I feel that Bonevena (who i feel is one of the most underrated heavyweights of all time) would most likely do better because of his better boxing ability and defense. Rocky gets blown out.

I personally don't think Walcott was on the same level as Hopkins as far as consistency and all time great wise, but he was obviously the bigger man and most likely would have been a better at heavyweight, but we won't find out and will never know since Bernard never fought at heavyweight and only moved to light heavyweight when he was about 42 years old. That's why i can't make an official prediction.

With that being said, i don't think its a big of a mismatch that some people are making it out to be. Hopkins is 6'1 and he fought at 175, which is only about 10-15 pounds away from what Marciano weighed during some of his fights. If Bernard could keep his speed while moving up, things could have been interesting.


In terms of achievements Hopkins would only hold a slight edge over Walcott; and you also have to take into account that he never had to face fighters like Marciano, Charles, and Joe Louis multiple times over short periods of time. Calzaghe and Taylor are excellent fighters but seriously...this is very arguable. There is also much more to Walcott than being the bigger and stronger man, again I would point to his footwork. Hopkins doesn't have anything on the "Walcott Shuffle" which few have come close to even duplicating.

Also the thread starter said "PRIME" Hopkins who was a middleweight. Hopkins is an elite Light Heavy today but I can't see him doing anything that Charles, Walcott, or Moore couldn't even if he packed on a few more pounds and went up to 180 in a hypothetical situation. I think he would get overwhelmed just the same and the fact that he doesn't carry threatening one punch KO power at 170 and up like those men isn't going to do him any favors either; even when the cautious Charles loaded up he could stop fighters cold with his left hook. Anything can happen in boxing but there are some things I certainly wouldn't bet on, regardless how fast or how slick nobody made peak Marciano miss all night and when he hit you bad things happened.

Than again I remember you tried to argue Marciano didn't have a high punch output cause he was so slow when there is plenty of tape evidence of him throwing 70-100 bad intention punches in late rounds against Charles and Moore if you want to count.

"I've got every Marciano fight on DVD and have watched them numerous times, all I have to say is that Rocky is completely underrated by people that can't look beyond his measurements, he was about the same size as Tua only he intentionally weighed less. Marciano could easily have fought at 220 lbs. (that is what he walked around at) but he preferred to fight at 188 because he didn't lose his power at that weight and this gave him a HUGE stamina advantage over every other fighter. The Rock's stamina was so good that I counted close to 100 power punches thrown at Charles in the 15th round of a brutal war."


- "Duke" from KON

LOL I'm just trying to help you out, because you need it if you actually think that Marciano would get a bigger Liston to fold under pressure. Ali frustrated him with with jab and foot speed. Marciano would not be coming at Liston, soaking up his punches and keep coming forward? Its just something that i don't see.

I feel that Bonevena (who i feel is one of the most underrated heavyweights of all time) would most likely do better because of his better boxing ability and defense. Rocky gets blown out.

The only thing I'll concede to is that Liston stood a hell of a better chance at defeating Marciano than Bernard Hopkins (the subject of this ridiculous thread.)

But just as you cannot see Marciano wading through Liston's punches (and how many of those would've landed flush), I cannot see Liston having an answer for a guy who could punch with the same authority himself and was basically impervious to mortal conditions like fatigue, pain or fear.

The only thing I'll concede to is that Liston stood a hell of a better chance at defeating Marciano than Bernard Hopkins (the subject of this ridiculous thread.)

But just as you cannot see Marciano wading through Liston's punches (and how many of those would've landed flush), I cannot see Liston having an answer for a guy who could punch with the same authority himself and was basically impervious to mortal conditions like fatigue, pain or fear.

I think Liston would knock him spark out, and early. Marciano never faced anyone close to his league. I said 10 before, now I'm thinking 5.

you are making Marciano out to be a defensive master, the guy blocked punches with his face.

Rocky was a great champion in his era. But boxing has evolved so much that I can't see any way in hell that Marciano would have been able to figure Hopkins' style out. He would charge forward and B-Hop would use Rock for target practice all night long.

"I've got every Marciano fight on DVD and have watched them numerous times, all I have to say is that Rocky is completely underrated by people that can't look beyond his measurements, he was about the same size as Tua only he intentionally weighed less. Marciano could easily have fought at 220 lbs. (that is what he walked around at) but he preferred to fight at 188 because he didn't lose his power at that weight and this gave him a HUGE stamina advantage over every other fighter. The Rock's stamina was so good that I counted close to 100 power punches thrown at Charles in the 15th round of a brutal war."


- "Duke" from KON



Those are some excellent observations. People today have difficulty comprehending a guy like Marciano; he is just so alien to their way of thinking, to their idea of what a fighter is all about. You really have to watch his matches in order to get an accurate picture.

Those are some excellent observations. People today have difficulty comprehending a guy like Marciano; he is just so alien to their way of thinking, to their idea of what a fighter is all about. You really have to watch his matches in order to get an accurate picture.

he wasn't anywhere near as big as Tua, sorry. I should also point out that Tua is often looked at as a smaller heavyweight.

Tua in his prime was 225 lbs, and he wasn't that fat. Being generous and saying 10 lbs of that is fat, he's still got 25 lbs to go.

Marciano wasn't quick ether, a lot of good that so called weight cutting did.

no way did Rocky have 30 inch thighs.

http://image.blingee.com/images10/content/output/2007/3/12/40020416_6e8bcad9.gif

this is Tua at 230, you are telling me he could cut 40 lbs and still be healthy? he looks to be at about 10% body fat. Marciano probably was about 5-6% on fight night, still doesn't put him anywhere near Tuas size.

The only thing I'll concede to is that Liston stood a hell of a better chance at defeating Marciano than Bernard Hopkins (the subject of this ridiculous thread.)

Liston WOULD have beaten Marciano. Just look at their sizes, power and ability. Sonny was 6'0 with about an 84 or 85 inch reach. He had two ways of winning, he could pick the smaller and shorter Marciano off with his long left jab and do it technical, or he could just go in and end the fight whenever he wanted to, because IMO he would be in that much control. The Patterson fight showed how being smaller than Liston, crouching and lunging would get you annihilated against him. He would simply push off and keep on throwing accurate combination's.

But just as you cannot see Marciano wading through Liston's punches (and how many of those would've landed flush), I cannot see Liston having an answer for a guy who could punch with the same authority himself and was basically impervious to mortal conditions like fatigue, pain or fear.

Rocky did not punch with the same authority as Liston and hes never fought anyone that punches as hard. Hes been down by light heavyweights by like Moore and early at that, i see Liston being physically big and strong enough to keep him there. I also hope that you don't believe that Rocky's defense was underrated. I actually heard Moore state( on the ESPN panel discussion on Marciano's career) that Rocky was not hard to hit, he just didn't care. As stated, Ali frustrated Sonny because he didn't have a target to hit and he was the one who was being hit back, and threw him off and he never got into his rhythm. Marciano would not only be an easy target against Liston but also one that's a lot shorter, crouching low and squared up. I just can't imagine how being a shorter inside fighter would be effective against him. I don't see this fight going past 3 to be honest if that. Rocky is a great fighter, but Liston couldn't be a more wronger style for him.

Why would anyone match a Middleweight versus a Heavyweight unless its a
p4p matchup?

Poet

It makes things difficult to predict as Hopkins was in his 40s when he finally went to 175 (and was thus weighing 180s at fight night). Hopkins lost his later fights based on low output to guys who could out work him. Obviously this version of Hopkins doesnt have a chance against Marciano who is slightly bigger, with power and great output.

If you look back at a more active Hopkins in his younger days at 160, he didnt have the problems with output and could go in there and trade and be very effective like in the Echols fights. Of course the problem is that his competition back at 160 was not that great. Cant exactly compare a performance against Echols at 160 to what he would have been like at 180+ against Marciano.

The easy answer is Marciano as he has too many advantages and you really have to piece together different qualities of Hopkins from different stages of his career to make him competitive against Marciano.

Only question left is can Marciano knock him out? Weve never seen Hopkins in serious trouble or even hurt really. He has so many tricks (many illegal and dirty) up his sleeves to slow down his opponent and prevent them from landing cleanly consistently on him. If we assume Hopkins is in best condition with top stamina, then I think he can use his usual tricks to make it to the end of the fight without being in serious trouble.

Liston WOULD have beaten Marciano. Just look at their sizes, power and ability. Sonny was 6'0 with about an 84 or 85 inch reach. He had two ways of winning, he could pick the smaller and shorter Marciano off with his long left jab and do it technical, or he could just go in and end the fight whenever he wanted to, because IMO he would be in that much control. The Patterson fight showed how being smaller than Liston, crouching and lunging would get you annihilated against him. He would simply push off and keep on throwing accurate combination's.



Rocky did not punch with the same authority as Liston and hes never fought anyone that punches as hard. Hes been down by light heavyweights by like Moore and early at that, i see Liston being physically big and strong enough to keep him there. I also hope that you don't believe that Rocky's defense was underrated. I actually heard Moore state( on the ESPN panel discussion on Marciano's career) that Rocky was not hard to hit, he just didn't care. As stated, Ali frustrated Sonny because he didn't have a target to hit and he was the one who was being hit back, and threw him off and he never got into his rhythm. Marciano would not only be an easy target against Liston but also one that's a lot shorter, crouching low and squared up. I just can't imagine how being a shorter inside fighter would be effective against him. I don't see this fight going past 3 to be honest if that. Rocky is a great fighter, but Liston couldn't be a more wronger style for him.


good post, I agree Liston would bust Rocky up.

Might want to check your grammar though on "wronger". Normally I'm not one to care but that's just..erm...wrong

-apples

Hopkins was a MW in his prime.

In terms of achievements Hopkins would only hold a slight edge over Walcott; and you also have to take into account that he never had to face fighters like Marciano, Charles, and Joe Louis multiple times over short periods of time. Calzaghe and Taylor are excellent fighters but seriously...this is very arguable. There is also much more to Walcott than being the bigger and stronger man, again I would point to his footwork. Hopkins doesn't have anything on the "Walcott Shuffle" which few have come close to even duplicating.


Nice post but what achievements does Walcott have that's even close to being what Bernard has accomplished? Hopkins is a two division champion, he defended his title about 20 times, unified and didn't lose for many years. From what i remember, Joe only won the heavyweight title once and didn't have it for that long. You should revisit Hopkins. And if this is including the fighters that he lost to as well, then it would be pretty clear that Bernard would have the edge.

I have to agree about Walcott having the better foot work but as far as craftiness, i think Hopkins was the better thinker and a lot better as neutralizing his opponents best weapon, and Rocky was not exactly multi dimensional but as i have stated , we don't know how effectively Hopkins would have carried up the extra weight.

Also the thread starter said "PRIME" Hopkins who was a middleweight. Hopkins is an elite Light Heavy today but I can't see him doing anything that Charles, Walcott, or Moore couldn't even if he packed on a few more pounds and went up to 180 in a hypothetical situation. I think he would get overwhelmed just the same and the fact that he doesn't carry threatening one punch KO power at 170 and up like those men isn't going to do him any favors either; even when the cautious Charles loaded up he could stop fighters cold with his left hook. Anything can happen in boxing but there are some things I certainly wouldn't bet on, regardless how fast or how slick nobody made peak Marciano miss all night and when he hit you bad things happened.

I agree that Charles, Walcott and Moore would have a good shot at beating Hopkins, but on the other hand i wouldn't completely count out Hopkins. Lets not think for a minute that they would just out muscle Bernard. Hopkins was really a light heavyweight his entire career, that just ate so healthy and ran so much that it allowed him to make middleweight. Moore actually fought Charley Burley( a great who is from my hometown actually) at middleweight and lost by wide decision and was almost stopped. I'm not comparing the two styles, but Hopkins is much bigger than Burley which shows that weight wouldn't be much of a problem. Just something to think about.

Also, Bernard was never that big of a puncher( he did have pop though). He was always known as a crafty, consistent ring smart boxer and never relied on his power. Against the above mentioned names, he would try to out box and out muscle them and use his foot speed.

Than again I remember you tried to argue Marciano didn't have a high punch output cause he was so slow when there is plenty of tape evidence of him throwing 70-100 bad intention punches in late rounds against Charles and Moore if you want to count.

I don't remember, but i think that's the thread where you tried to convince me he would beat Ali, which i couldn't see in any way.

good post, I agree Liston would bust Rocky up.

Might want to check your grammar though on "wronger". Normally I'm not one to care but that's just..erm...wrong

-apples

I went through it with spell check( which i do with all of my posts) and it didn't seem to mind. :D I just have my own ways of using words.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wronger

Why would anyone match a Middleweight versus a Heavyweight unless its a
p4p matchup?

Poet

Yeah that's why we really can't get a clear view on what would happen, because there are so many questions like will Hopkins bring up his speed, and reflexes which he would need in order to have a chance? It would be better if it was asked at a pacific catch weight or like you said, a pound for pound match up.

Anyone who thinks for a second that B-Hop has a chance in hell against the legendary Brockton Blockbuster knows **** all about boxing.

I went through it with spell check( which i do with all of my posts) and it didn't seem to mind. :D I just have my own ways of using words.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wronger

I guess i was wrong bro lol:boxing:

Yeah that's why we really can't get a clear view on what would happen, because there are so many questions like will Hopkins bring up his speed, and reflexes which he would need in order to have a chance? It would be better if it was asked at a pacific catch weight or like you said, a pound for pound match up.

Hopkins makes weight at 175, I'm sure he comes to fight at almost 180, that's only 6 lbs, since they had same day weigh ins back in the day.

this cant be a serious question...Hopkins would make him look like an amature. marciano is only white-hype so git it right.

Hopkins makes weight at 175, I'm sure he comes to fight at almost 180, that's only 6 lbs, since they had same day weigh ins back in the day.

I think he came in at nearly 190 lbs against Calzaghe. He was lighter at 180 lbs against Pavlik and looked better.

The size difference isn't as big a factor as some people are making it out to be but I just can't see a 40+ year old Hopkins keeping up with Rocky. I also do not think that it would be a one-sided fight.

I doubt Marciano could've fought at 220+ lbs, maybe 200 lbs with today's 12 round distance but anything higher than that weight would've taken away from his amazing conditioning which is what made him as great as he was.

I think he came in at nearly 190 lbs against Calzaghe. He was lighter at 180 lbs against Pavlik and looked better.

The size difference isn't as big a factor as some people are making it out to be but I just can't see a 40+ year old Hopkins keeping up with Rocky. I also do not think that it would be a one-sided fight.

I doubt Marciano could've fought at 220+ lbs, maybe 200 lbs with today's 12 round distance but anything higher than that weight would've taken away from his amazing conditioning which is what made him as great as he was.

It depends, Hopkins wasn't supposed to keep up with the 100 punch per round Pavlik ether.

Both Pavlik and rocky are very one Dimensional imo

"Nice post but what achievements does Walcott have that's even close to being what Bernard has accomplished? Hopkins is a two division champion, he defended his title about 20 times, unified and didn't lose for many years. From what i remember, Joe only won the heavyweight title once and didn't have it for that long. You should revisit Hopkins. And if this is including the fighters that he lost to as well, then it would be pretty clear that Bernard would have the edge."

Well your not going to get official credit for losing to Louis, Charles, and Marciano and that is just the way it is and I won't try to argue otherwise. I will point out that long title reigns and defining wins are not why Walcott is so highly regarded by writers, trainers, and other boxers. He is a fighter you just have to watch but in all fariness I understand why others would disagree. In the ring, I think he's just as great if not better than Hopkins P4P but he certainly can't match his overall resume.

"I agree that Charles, Walcott and Moore would have a good shot at beating Hopkins, but on the other hand i wouldn't completely count out Hopkins. Lets not think for a minute that they would just out muscle Bernard."

You lost me. That argument is neither here nor there. My point was that I can't see Hopkins bringing anything to new to the table against Marciano. If middleweight Hopkins from say the Trindad fight magically came in at 200 lbs it would certainly be an interesting fight I guess....., but Light Heavy Hopkins doesn't stand anymore of a chance than Rockys' three most famous Hall of Fame victims.

It depends, Hopkins wasn't supposed to keep up with the 100 punch per round Pavlik ether.

Pavlik hasn't beaten the likes of Walcott, Charles and Archie Moore though.

As I said the big difference between Pavlik and Marciano (among other things, stylistically they're very different in my opinion) is that Marciano never gets discouraged. Pavlik was also the smaller man (not shorter) and felt Hopkins' strength much more than Marciano would.

Rocky would keep throwing punches if he were to get hit by Hopkins' counter punches like Calzaghe did, even after being knocked down in the first round.

Moore, Walcott and Charles landed a ton of punches on Marciano but he kept coming at them and gradually wore them down over the 15 round distance. All three of them were hard punchers and clever boxers.

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Pavlik hasn't beaten the likes of Walcott, Charles and Archie Moore though.

As I said the big difference between Pavlik and Marciano (among other things, stylistically they're very different in my opinion) is that Marciano never gets discouraged. Pavlik was also the smaller man (not shorter) and felt Hopkins' strength much more than Marciano would.

Rocky would keep throwing punches if he were to get hit by Hopkins' counter punches like Calzaghe did, even after being knocked down in the first round.

Moore, Walcott and Charles landed a ton of punches on Marciano but he kept coming at them and gradually wore them down over the 15 round distance. All three of them were hard punchers and clever boxers.

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that was the best you could do with cal-slappy..lol now do 1 with Hopkins, i bet it looks WAY better than that...

Well your not going to get official credit for losing to Louis, Charles, and Marciano and that is just the way it is and I won't try to argue otherwise. I will point out that long title reigns and defining wins are not why Walcott is so highly regarded by writers, trainers, and other boxers. He is a fighter you just have to watch but in all fariness I understand why others would disagree. In the ring, I think he's just as great if not better than Hopkins P4P but he certainly can't match his overall resume.

You switched on me but i see what you're saying. At first, you said that achievement wise, you feel that Walcott was as achieved or even more achived than Hopkins, and i couldn't see how that is possible considering all of Bernard's accomplishments, pound for pound ratings, titles and consistency. Walcott was brilliant inside the ring though, and its debatable who was the better fighter and many will prefer Hopkins better defense and boxing brain. Walcott made him himself more vulnerable by opening up more where as Bernard focuses more on the defensive, his foot work and dictating.

You lost me. That argument is neither here nor there. My point was that I can't see Hopkins bringing anything to new to the table against Marciano. If middleweight Hopkins from say the Trindad fight magically came in at 200 lbs it would certainly be an interesting fight I guess....., but Light Heavy Hopkins doesn't stand anymore of a chance than Rockys' three most famous Hall of Fame victims.

I thought you said that Hopkins wouldn't bring anything that Moore, Charles or Walcott hadn't seen before( as if you were matching them together), i must have misread. Well as i have stated, i don't feel Rocky has fought anyone with the boxing brain of Hopkins, but as i have stated earlier this match is pretty moot since Hopkins didn't move up until he was 42, and a 42 year old Hopkins vs Marciano in his prime is not that hard to figure out.

that was the best you could do with cal-slappy..lol now do 1 with Hopkins, i bet it looks WAY better than that...

That's the only footage I could find of the Calzaghe-Hopkins fight, everything else has been taken off youtube.

I tried to post a video of the later rounds of the fight in which Hopkins gave away a lot of rounds after running out of stamina.

That's the only footage I could find of the Calzaghe-Hopkins fight, everything else has been taken off youtube.

I tried to post a video of the later rounds of the fight in which Hopkins gave away a lot of rounds after running out of stamina.

Pavlik didn't beat the same names as Marciano, but his resume was just starting to build up. Wooping on Jermain Taylor and Miranda, anyone that stood in front of him usually lost. That's the same case as with Marciano (by no means am I saying Pavlik is in the same catagory as Rocky). Nobody fought Rocky and moved for 12 rounds, Walcott did a bit, but he liked to brawl to.

Well as i have stated, i don't feel Rocky has fought anyone with the boxing brain of Hopkins

This is my candidate for Most Innane Post In BoxingScene History.

This is my candidate for Most Innane Post In BoxingScene History.

what was so insane about it, not many people have run into someone who was as technically brilliant as Hopkins. He's 44 years old and just dismantled the undefeated middleweight king.

i bet marciano had a nice huge big **** 4 me to suk on

"You switched on me but i see what you're saying. At first, you said that achievement wise, you feel that Walcott was as achieved or even more achived than Hopkins, and i couldn't see how that is possible considering all of Bernard's accomplishments, pound for pound ratings, titles and consistency. Walcott was brilliant inside the ring though, and its debatable who was the better fighter and many will prefer Hopkins better defense and boxing brain. Walcott made him himself more vulnerable by opening up more where as Bernard focuses more on the defensive, his foot work and dictating."

Nah, I just don't think I used the best wording originally and should have better explained. You see what I'm saying now though so its all good; really just that Walcott faced absurdly strong opposition and proved more in defeat than most did in victory. Still, the Charles knockout is nothing to sneeze at mind you. You don't have to agree but that's the common perception of him and I think it is very fair.

Sorry, I have to completely disagree with you about your observations on Walcott. He was as cautious if not more cautious than Hopkins. Him and Bernard even faced similiar criticisms in their heyday such as holding too much, being too cautious, boooring style,..etc. Same goes for Charles during the majority of his title run after he killed Sam Baroudi, though he gradually developed a mean streak after the loss to Walcott. Outside of his calculated attack in the first round of the Marciano fight Walcott wasn't much of an aggressor as he prefered to confuse his opponets and pick them apart with punishing counters. I hope your not considering Them Apples claims of Walcott liking to brawl, do yourself a favor and just watch the man. Your smater than that.

Really Charles, Walcott, Hopkins, and Moore were all brilliant boxing minds and defensive masters and you'd just be splitting hairs to argue one over the other in that regard. Certainly a close call on all fronts. Walcott and Hopkins were the most similar in style, hence the comparision. Hopkins fought some tough fighters but nothing like the competition they faced night in and out. I think Satterfield and Johnson would even be an interesting challenge for Hopkins at Light Heavy, certainly better than Tarver and Pavlik.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG8kmOgjSPY&feature=related

Satterfield destroying the skilled 214 lb Bob Baker.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az5DSG4uFgI

Harold Johnson in action.

Sorry, I have to completely disagree with you about your observations on Walcott. He was as cautious if not more cautious than Hopkins. Him and Bernard even faced similiar criticisms in their heyday such as holding too much, being too cautious, boooring style,..etc. Same goes for Charles during the majority of his title run after he killed Sam Baroudi, though he gradually developed a mean streak after the loss to Walcott. Outside of his calculated attack in the first round of the Marciano fight Walcott wasn't much of an aggressor as he prefered to confuse his opponets and pick them apart with punishing counters. I hope your not considering Them Apples claims of Walcott liking to brawl, do yourself a favor and just watch the man. Your smater than that.

I own all three Charles/Walcott fights, both his fights with Louis and both of his fights against Marciano, so i know his style pretty well. Trust me, I'm not the type that posts about a fighter and never seen him fight before. You make some valid points, but i can't agree at all with Joe being as or even close to as cautious as Hopkins. Now, take the first Marciano/Walcott fight for example. Early in that fight, you see an aggressive Walcott that came out and traded with a big puncher and completely abandoning his defense.

I also remember him being hit a lot in his first fight with Charles. Since when has Hopkins traded punches with a puncher and fought with him on the inside taking punches? I personally have never seen it before. Hopkins in his prime became a cautious, crafty defensive minded counter puncher who we rarely see even touched to the head or body. In fact, have you ever even see him with any kind of bruises? I can't imagine him being caught in the kind of exchange that Joe was caught in against Rocky. The only time i have ever seen Hopkins hit much was in his first fight with Jones, and you don't see that type of speed every day and it hadn't happened since. I can count on one finger how many times Bernard was hit in his fights Trinidad, Pavlik, Tarver, Taylor or even Calzaghe( not the slaps, significant punches).

Even in his fights with Louis, Joe was hit quite a bit. I think you are letting his foot work( which was indeed one of the best) allow you to think that his defense was better than what it actually was. His knockout losses should not be overlooked.


Really Charles, Walcott, Hopkins, and Moore were all brilliant boxing minds and defensive masters and you'd just be splitting hairs to argue one over the other in that regard. Certainly a close call on all fronts. Walcott and Hopkins were the most similar in style, hence the comparision. Hopkins fought some tough fighters but nothing like the competition they faced night in and out. I think Satterfield and Johnson would even be an interesting challenge for Hopkins at Light Heavy, certainly better than Tarver and Pavlik.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG8kmOgjSPY&feature=related

Satterfield destroying the skilled 214 lb Bob Baker.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Az5DSG4uFgI

Harold Johnson in action.


Agreed.

"I own all three Charles/Walcott fights, both his fights with Louis and both of his fights against Marciano, so i know his style pretty well. Trust me, I'm not the type that posts about a fighter and never seen him fight before. You make some valid points, but i can't agree at all with Joe being as or even close to as cautious as Hopkins. Now, take the first Marciano/Walcott fight for example. Early in that fight, you see an aggressive Walcott that came out and traded with a big puncher and completely abandoning his defense. "

No offense but you could of fooled me. Trade? In that oh so brief moment of aggression where a surprised Marciano doesn't even get a chance to throw anything back let alone land anything significant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2-5fq0sGMs

Walcott/Marciano I Rounds 1-2

Again, the whole point is that Hopkins never faced a relentless offensive force like Marciano anyway.

"I also remember him being hit a lot in his first fight with Charles. Since when has Hopkins traded punches with a puncher and fought with him on the inside taking punches? "

Charles certainly got to Walcott more than most but it wasn't because of a lack of caution on his part. Ezzard Charles was just the faster slicker fighter for the most part; only Roy Jones can come close to that offensive wizardy in regards to Hopkins opposition. Again this is pointless hair splitting; there isn't a signifcant measurable difference between the level of caution employed by Hopkins and Walcott. Nitpicking rare moments of aggression from either fighter isn't going to change that.

Sure Walcott took more punishment over his career but again Marciano, Louis, and Charles aren't exactly Taylor, Calzaghe, and that has been my point. This is needlessly going in circles so I'm going to bail before I get sick.

"Even in his fights with Louis, Joe was hit quite a bit. I think you are letting his foot work( which was indeed one of the best) allow you to think that his defense was better than what it actually was. His knockout losses should not be overlooked."

Really? Until the miracle knockout one of history's most accurate punchers isn't exactly landing anything of note. Walcott's cautious approach in the first fight is what unfairly cost him the fight in the judge's eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCQYrAwn-Fs

Louis/Walcott I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uCpJ0bm6RI

Louis/Walcott II

No offense but you could of fooled me. Trade? In that oh so brief moment of aggression where a surprised Marciano doesn't even get a chance to throw anything back let alone land anything significant.

I even posted it here, watch this version. Its shows Joe trading with Rocky in both the middle of the ring and on the ropes. The whole point is this is to show you that Joe was no where near as cautious as Hopkins was. Have you ever seen Hopkins in that kind of a fight where punches were being landed by both fighters? Even the referee in this video stated that Walcott was staggered in that second round.

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Charles certainly got to Walcott more than most but it wasn't because of a lack of caution on his part. Ezzard Charles was just the faster slicker fighter for the most part; only Roy Jones can come close to that offensive wizardy in regards to Hopkins opposition.

I think Jones was landing much less than Charles was to be honest, and there were instances where Joe was even stunned. When Jones landed, Hopkins's defense showed because he wasn't even able to get full leverage on them to do any serious damage, and what convinces me is the fact that Hopkins didn't have a scratch on him and Roy is a big puncher, especially at middleweight where he knocked out almost everyone he fought.

Really? Until the miracle knockout one of history's most accurate punchers isn't exactly landing anything of note. Walcott's cautious approach in the first fight is what unfairly cost him the fight in the judge's eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCQYrAwn-Fs

Louis/Walcott I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uCpJ0bm6RI

Louis/Walcott II

He wasn't trading as much with Louis but there were definitely some points where he was hit flush a few times. In one of the earlier rounds, i remember Louis landing a hard right off of the chin of Walcott when he was in his defensive shell on the ropes. Now can you name a pacific blow landed on Hopkins when he was in his prime?

[QUOTE=slicksouthpaw16;4742150]I even posted it here, watch this version. Its shows Joe trading with Rocky in both the middle of the ring and on the ropes. The whole point is this is to show you that Joe was no where near as cautious as Hopkins was. Have you ever seen Hopkins in that kind of a fight where punches were being landed by both fighters? Even the referee in this video stated that Walcott was staggered in that second round.

(Shakes Head)

No in these highlights Maricano isn't landing until Round 9. Walcott is moving and throwing punches to keep the relentless Marciano off of him but he's also clinching, countering, and making him miss. Of course when you Marciano pushing the fight there is going to be more action. The commentary also says, "Marciano was staggered." after he was dropped than "Marciano has been staggered time and time again" You Dope!


"I think Jones was landing much less than Charles was to be honest, and there were instances where Joe was even stunned. When Jones landed, Hopkins's defense showed because he wasn't even able to get full leverage on them to do any serious damage, and what convinces me is the fact that Hopkins didn't have a scratch on him and Roy is a big puncher, especially at middleweight where he knocked out almost everyone he fought. "

Are you comparing Roy and Charles' power? Do your homework.


"He wasn't trading as much with Louis but there were definitely some points where he was hit flush a few times. In one of the earlier rounds, i remember Louis landing a hard right off of the chin of Walcott when he was in his defensive shell on the ropes. Now can you name a pacific blow landed on Hopkins when he was in his prime?"

Taylor isn't exactly Joe Louis but eh....everyone gets hit. Doesn't make Hopkins or Walcott lesser defensive fighters.

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/richard_obrien/12/02/taylor.hopkins/p1_hopkins_taylor_1202.jpg


http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2005/12/04/PH2005120400019.jpg

(Shakes Head) No in these highlights Maricano isn't landing until Round 9. Walcott is moving and throwing punches to keep the relentless Marciano off of him but he's also clinching, countering, and making him miss. Of course when you Marciano pushing the fight there is going to be more action. The commentary also says, "Marciano was staggered." after he was dropped than "Marciano has been staggered time and time again" You Dope!


Once again, the video shows Walcott trading a lot throughout the fight. You can do a highlight video of the career of Hopkins and still wouldn't find him in that kind of fight. Also, you should start at 2:25 of that video. The commentator says ''Walcott was staggered but he came right back''.

Are you comparing Roy and Charles' power? Do your homework.

So i guess Jones didn't stop the durable long lasting light heavyweight champion Virgil Hill( with one right hand to the body), Glen Wolfe in one round ( who had fought to a close war with Toney shortly before his fight with Jones) and stopped world class champions like Woods, Griffin ect and drop Reggie Johnson multiple times( who had never been in that much trouble at any point in his career) and stagger John Ruiz at heavyweight? Jones can punch, and I'll even go so far as to say that Jones at middleweight punches as hard as any Charles, he definitely had a higher KO ratio.


Taylor isn't exactly Joe Louis but eh....everyone gets hit. Doesn't make Hopkins or Walcott lesser defensive fighters.

Hopkins not only didn't flinch after those punches but he also didn't have any type of bruise or scratch afterward. But thanks for finally answering one of my questions. :)

http://abinitioadinfinitum.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/walcott-ko.jpg

http://pro.corbis.com/images/BE059071.jpg?size=67&uid=%7B16C545C7-14AA-4EBE-9057-3B8DE9AD811E%7D

Joe was bruised in both of these fights, which again proves my point on who gets hit more. I rate Joe as an all time great fighter( check my past posts and threads on him) so don't think I'm showing disrespect by posting these pictures.

Hopkins does trade punches with his opponents, although he rarely gets hit by them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXAUA3eYyPw
I believe round 10 was voted the round of the year by Ring Magazine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4wrbaZjjzs
He really opened up on Pavlik at times when Pavlik went on the defensive.

The only fight in which he truly refused to trade punches was the Calzaghe fight when he was outworked and lost a close decision.

I guess you could point out to his safety first performances at the end of his middleweight run against the likes of Howard Eastman but I don't really think too much of those fights. In his prime against Echols and Glen Johnson he threw and landed a ton of punches and tried to KO both of them.

I wouldn't say that Walcott had the boxing brain of Hopkins because he made possibly the worst mistake of all time in a boxing ring by dancing and showing off against Joe Louis in a fight he was winning (which led to him getting caught and finished off) but then again Hopkins really blew those Taylor fights by starting his rally too late.

what was so insane about it, not many people have run into someone who was as technically brilliant as Hopkins. He's 44 years old and just dismantled the undefeated middleweight king.

Inane, you dolt.

"Once again, the video shows Walcott trading a lot throughout the fight. You can do a highlight video of the career of Hopkins and still wouldn't find him in that kind of fight. Also, you should start at 2:25 of that video. The commentator says ''Walcott was staggered but he came right back''. "

In Round ****ing 11!!!!!

Your quote:

Walcott was staggered in that second round

Your video doesn't even show the 2nd, it goes to the 3rd. Nah, I can't see any reason why I would question your powers of perception as you haven't even paid close attention to your own video evidence. Yeah, as the fight progressed Marciano's pressure forced Walcott into tougher and toughter situations resulting in him getting hit more and more until the big one got dropped. Walcott didn't get stopped because he was looking to trade and brawl, he was a great defensive fighter that got broke down by Marciano after 13 rounds of relentless aggression. Of course to admit this would mean that Marciano was an effective swarmer and we can't have that. I'm done with this, remind me to never bother with your posts anymore. :peeright:

I made a simple mistake, and you blow it up like its bigger than what it is. And regardless of weather it was the 11th or 2nd round, Joe was trading with Marciano and getting hit back in the process. When Hopkins trades( which is rare), he doesn't get hit because he has his chin tucked under shoulder and he never stands in the pocket too long. Hes in and out especially against big punchers. Its really just laughable how i point out the facts to you, show you evidence as proof and yet you still don't take anything into account and continue to claim that Walcott has better defense than Hopkins, when everyone with a brain in this thread disagreed with.

You rarely answered any of my questions, you ignore points and at the end, got upset because you wasn't winning the debate, what does that sound like? Someone getting the worst of an argument? :D You're a lot better than this Thunder Lips.

Inane, you dolt.

lmao, my bad

be nice

I wouldn't say that Walcott had the boxing brain of Hopkins because he made possibly the worst mistake of all time in a boxing ring by dancing and showing off against Joe Louis in a fight he was winning (which led to him getting caught and finished off) but then again Hopkins really blew those Taylor fights by starting his rally too late.

You have to take into consideration that Walcott didn't get the decision in the first fight because of his conservative tactics against the beloved Champion. Obviously he was looking to make more of a point by showboating more, still I don't think that cost him the fight. You also have to admit Louis set a pretty good trap for those sneaky rights that broke Walcott down and was willing to take a good left to land them in both instances. I find it really hard to knock Walcott for this because you give Louis enough rounds against anybody he'll figure you out and land something. Seriously Hopkins never fought someone with the boxing brain of Joe Louis.


lol SlickSouthpaw16. If Them Apples is the only person in this thread with a brain you can keep him.

lol SlickSouthpaw16. If Them Apples is the only person in this thread with a brain you can keep him.

Slicksouthpaw16 and Them_Apples have made many, many good contributions since I've been a member here. I'll vouch that they both have boxing brains.

As for this fantasy match, the only way that Hopkins beats the Rock is if he can outbox him for the whole time the fight is scheduled for. No way he knocks out the Rock. And I just can't see Hopkins having enough firepower to hold off Rocky. Personally, I would have bet all my money that Archie Moore and / or Ezzard Charles beats Hopkins at 175, prime for prime at 175. So, no, I can't envision Hopkins outboxing Marciano the whole night.

I'm going out on a redwood and picking Marciano by decision or late KO. Hopkins is most certainly savy enough to hang around a while. But them punches will accumulate fast.

You have to take into consideration that Walcott didn't get the decision in the first fight because of his conservative tactics against the beloved Champion. Obviously he was looking to make more of a point by showboating more, still I don't think that cost him the fight. You also have to admit Louis set a pretty good trap for those sneaky rights that broke Walcott down and was willing to take a good left to land them in both instances. I find it really hard to knock Walcott for this because you give Louis enough rounds against anybody he'll figure you out and land something. Seriously Hopkins never fought someone with the boxing brain of Joe Louis.


lol SlickSouthpaw16. If Them Apples is the only person in this thread with a brain you can keep him.

In my opinion it did. There was absolutely no reason at all for Walcott to dance and showboat against Joe Louis who was the greatest finisher of all time.

Sure he may have been caught at some point even if he had not done what he did but I believe he wouldn't have been at that time if not for his blatant over-confidence.

For me it's the equivalent of Nate Campbell dropping his hands against Robbie Peden and getting knocked out. Just a plain dumb move if you ask me, not that I do not think highly of Walcott.

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Louis did a fine job with his counter right hand throughout the bout but Walcott was asking for trouble with his showboating.

In my opinion it did. There was absolutely no reason at all for Walcott to dance and showboat against Joe Louis who was the greatest finisher of all time.

Sure he may have been caught at some point even if he had not done what he did but I believe he wouldn't have been at that time if not for his blatant over-confidence.

For me it's the equivalent of Nate Campbell dropping his hands against Robbie Peden and getting knocked out. Just a plain dumb move if you ask me, not that I do not think highly of Walcott.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCQYrAwn-Fs

Spending the last rounds of the first fight on his bicycle got him a SD loss. In retrospect he should have been even more cautious in the rematch but its easy to see why he may have thought the opposite. Walcott didn't exactly pull a Cambpell as he at least got caught by sneaky counter punch over the jab, that analogy is a bit harsh. Ouch. I'm not trying to be apologetic but I think it was an understandable miscalculation all things considered; a far cry from one of the dumber moments in the sport. To go back on topic, Hopkins has done just as much showboating against Pavlik and Tarver. Both were considered dangerous punchers coming into their respective fights but I just don't think they had a Joe Louis in them moreso than Hopkins being a smarter boxer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCQYrAwn-Fs

Spending the last rounds of the first fight on his bicycle got him a SD loss. In retrospect he should have been even more cautious in the rematch but its easy to see why he may have thought the opposite. Walcott didn't exactly pull a Cambpell as he at least got caught by sneaky counter punch over the jab, that analogy is a bit harsh. Ouch. I'm not trying to be apologetic but I think it was an understandable miscalculation all things considered; a far cry from one of the dumber moments in the sport. To go back on topic, Hopkins has done just as much showboating against Pavlik and Tarver. Both were considered dangerous punchers coming into their respective fights but I just don't think they had a Joe Louis in them moreso than Hopkins being a smarter boxer.

Comparing it to what Campbell did against Peden is a bit over the top but you could say that Peden was thought to be a relatively light puncher while Louis was known as perhaps the greatest puncher of all time who could get any man out of there with one well-landed punch on the chin.

As far as I know, no one else ever tried to showboat against Louis other than Walcott. It's just not a very smart thing to do.

We saw very little of the Walcott waltz in Jersey Joe's other title tries and for a very good reason.

I doubt Hopkins would ever showboat against a heavyweight (atleast a dangerous heavyweight, not a John Ruiz or a Nikolai Valuev). Then again he would never fight one either.

Comparing it to what Campbell did against Peden is a bit over the top but you could say that Peden was thought to be a relatively light puncher while Louis was known as perhaps the greatest puncher of all time who could get any man out of there with one well-landed punch on the chin.

As far as I know, no one else ever tried to showboat against Louis other than Walcott. It's just not a very smart thing to do.

I doubt Hopkins would ever showboat against a heavyweight (atleast a dangerous heavyweight, not a John Ruiz or a Nikolai Valuev). Then again he would never fight one either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMM5beVufN4

Off the top of my head one of Joe's tougher opponents Godoy did quite a bit of showboating in his first fight with Louis; moreso than Walcott ever did. Different breed of fighter though and he got his in the rematch as well.

Can't say if Hopkins would showboat against a Heavyweight or not. He certainly had no problem doing it againt fighters with threatening power at other weight classes so I don't see it as a huge stretch. I haven't seen anything to suggest he wouldn't. Hopkins and Walcott both liked to showboat and taunt in various situations, just who they were and I don't see a huge difference in judgement just opponents.

If say Pavlik sucked up Hopkins late flurries and came up with a huge knockout punch we would certainly be spinning a different tune right now. I just don't see this is a fair measuring stick of ring smarts. ****, they were both just crafty fighters and I can't see a strong case being made either way in this category.

Still, Walcott got caught over the top while he was throwing a purposeful jab...after some flashy footwork but still. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMM5beVufN4

Off the top of my head one of Joe's tougher opponents Godoy did quite a bit of showboating in his first fight with Louis; moreso than Walcott ever did. Different breed of fighter though and he got his in the rematch as well.

Can't say if Hopkins would showboat against a Heavyweight or not. He certainly had no problem doing it againt fighters with threatening power at other weight classes so I don't see it as a huge stretch. I haven't seen anything to suggest he wouldn't.

If say Pavlik sucked up Hopkins late flurries and came up with a huge knockout punch we would certainly be spinning a different tune right now. I just don't see this is a fair measuring stick of ring smarts. ****, they were both just crafty fighters and I can't see a strong case being made either way in this category.

I wouldn't call what Godoy did against Louis showboating since it was his style to crouch down as low as possible which made him an awkward target to hit but which also led to him getting destroyed by combinations of uppercuts in the rematch.

I'm not questioning Walcott's ring intelligence nor am I saying that Hopkins would be above such antics but I firmly believe that Walcott's 11th round waltz was one of the worst mistakes ever made in boxing. Not that it equals Campbell-Peden in stupidity but the stakes were much higher since it was for THE world heavyweight title.

Even Walcott himself admitted after the fight that he got over-confident against a puncher like Joe Louis who could very quickly capitalize on such a mistake.

"I'm not questioning Walcott's ring intelligence nor am I saying that Hopkins would be above such antics but I firmly believe that Walcott's 11th round waltz was one of the worst mistakes ever made in boxing. Not that it equals Campbell-Peden in stupidity but the stakes were much higher as it was for THE world heavyweight title.

Even Walcott himself admitted after the fight that he got over-confident against a puncher like Joe Louis who could very quickly capitalize on such a mistake."

Thank you for seeing that.

Your entitled to your opinion on Walcott/Louis I; I can think of worst offenses but in retrospect it is indeed avery bad moment for Walcott and there is no getting around that.

"Slicksouthpaw16 and Them_Apples have made many, many good contributions since I've been a member here. I'll vouch that they both have boxing brains."

In regards to their favorite fighters yes but they aren't the most opened minded bunch concerning anyone else, I guess we can all be a little biased but eh.....

"As for this fantasy match, the only way that Hopkins beats the Rock is if he can outbox him for the whole time the fight is scheduled for. No way he knocks out the Rock. And I just can't see Hopkins having enough firepower to hold off Rocky. Personally, I would have bet all my money that Archie Moore and / or Ezzard Charles beats Hopkins at 175, prime for prime at 175. So, no, I can't envision Hopkins outboxing Marciano the whole night."

I agree completely.