I have watched over 40 Muhammad Ali fights in the past two weeks, and I gotta tell ya, rather than coming to the conclusion that he's great like everyone else says, it made me wonder, are all the premature stoppages just a coincidence?

Of course, there is the main three points which come to mind when talking about this subject.

1.) Sonny Liston taking a dive.
2.) George Foreman getting to his feet at the count of 8 but the ref calling the fight.
3.) Cutting the glove against Henry Cooper.

There is also maybe five or six instances of fights being stopped by the referee when Ali's opponent takes two or three punches but still looks capable of continuing and is not in any serious danger. And again, there's alot of times his opponents dramatically drop to the floor and roll around, or play dead while the ref counts to ten when there is no clear knockout punches thrown. In all of these fights the opponents seem to recover miraculously and have no problem congratulating Ali. 25 of Ali's KO wins have came as a result of the referee stopping the fight.

To me, this is all shady business.

usually when fighters dont get up before the count of 7/8 the fight is over
so no suprise there

That puts us back to the ''what if'' discussion. What if Liston took a dive, foreman got up and so on.. Well, we don't know if Liston took a dive and Foreman was so exhausted he didn't even discuss the ref decision anyway so in my book under the circumstances that ACTUALLY happened he's the greatest in my book.

Lol.

No, he is not.

I have watched over 40 Muhammad Ali fights in the past two weeks, and I gotta tell ya, rather than coming to the conclusion that he's great like everyone else says, it made me wonder, are all the premature stoppages just a coincidence?

Of course, there is the main three points which come to mind when talking about this subject.

1.) Sonny Liston taking a dive.
2.) George Foreman getting to his feet at the count of 8 but the ref calling the fight.
3.) Cutting the glove against Henry Cooper.

There is also maybe five or six instances of fights being stopped by the referee when Ali's opponent takes two or three punches but still looks capable of continuing and is not in any serious danger. And again, there's alot of times his opponents dramatically drop to the floor and roll around, or play dead while the ref counts to ten when there is no clear knockout punches thrown. In all of these fights the opponents seem to recover miraculously and have no problem congratulating Ali. 25 of Ali's KO wins have came as a result of the referee stopping the fight.

To me, this is all shady business.

the Lyle fight was an early stoppage to. I'm not going to make pre conceived notions about him, but on paper he has a great resume. I almost wonder if the Foreman vs Ali fight was in Zaire just to make it even quicker for George to Gas. Also the loosening of the ropes.

There has been rumors about Foreman being sedated in that Ali fight!

There are rumours about everything.

Facts are, Foreman was young, in his prime and coming off dominant wins over two fighters who had beaten Ali while Ali was 32 years old and had not looked too great in his recent performances. The question before the fight wasn't whether Foreman would run out of stamina, it was whether Ali could keep moving for 15 rounds in his present condition. He couldn't do that against Norton and Frazier.

No one thought laying on the ropes and standing in front of Foreman would be the way to beat him as Norton and Frazier had been quickly destroyed that way.

I have watched over 40 Muhammad Ali fights in the past two weeks, and I gotta tell ya, rather than coming to the conclusion that he's great like everyone else says, it made me wonder, are all the premature stoppages just a coincidence?

Of course, there is the main three points which come to mind when talking about this subject.

1.) Sonny Liston taking a dive.
2.) George Foreman getting to his feet at the count of 8 but the ref calling the fight.
3.) Cutting the glove against Henry Cooper.

There is also maybe five or six instances of fights being stopped by the referee when Ali's opponent takes two or three punches but still looks capable of continuing and is not in any serious danger. And again, there's alot of times his opponents dramatically drop to the floor and roll around, or play dead while the ref counts to ten when there is no clear knockout punches thrown. In all of these fights the opponents seem to recover miraculously and have no problem congratulating Ali. 25 of Ali's KO wins have came as a result of the referee stopping the fight.

To me, this is all shady business.

An old wives tale. Ask 15 old (British) men and they will tell you the break between rounds lasted anywhere between 3 and 10 minutes. It's just one of those silly rumours that won't die, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Nah, its true about the glove
Angie told it himself(Angelo Dundee) in one of Ali's books(maybe more, I only got one).

I have watched over 40 Muhammad Ali fights in the past two weeks, and I gotta tell ya, rather than coming to the conclusion that he's great like everyone else says, it made me wonder, are all the premature stoppages just a coincidence?

Of course, there is the main three points which come to mind when talking about this subject.

1.) Sonny Liston taking a dive.
2.) George Foreman getting to his feet at the count of 8 but the ref calling the fight.
3.) Cutting the glove against Henry Cooper.

There is also maybe five or six instances of fights being stopped by the referee when Ali's opponent takes two or three punches but still looks capable of continuing and is not in any serious danger. And again, there's alot of times his opponents dramatically drop to the floor and roll around, or play dead while the ref counts to ten when there is no clear knockout punches thrown. In all of these fights the opponents seem to recover miraculously and have no problem congratulating Ali. 25 of Ali's KO wins have came as a result of the referee stopping the fight.

To me, this is all shady business.

While I only rank Joe Louis higher among heavyweights, its pretty hard to overrate Ali when you look at the caliber of his competition. His resume is one of the best ever at any weight.

As far as his having 25 stoppages by the referee jumping in........so what. Ali wasn't a power puncher. He used speed and volume to overwhelm his opponents. If a man is till standing but cannot defend himself, it really leaves the ref no choice.


1.) Sonny Liston taking a dive.

Liston did not take a dive. He was clearly beaten in the first fight. The second fight was stopped by incompetent refereeing on the part of Joe Walcott

2.) George Foreman getting to his feet at the count of 8 but the ref calling the fight.

Foreman took the whole count. Even if he didn't, he was spent and a sitting duck for Ali. Nothing shady there.

3.) Cutting the glove against Henry Cooper.

Nobody cut the glove, it was torn during the previous round before the knockdown. Dundee just helped it out a little and brought it to the attention of the referee at a most opputune time.

I almost wonder if the Foreman vs Ali fight was in Zaire just to make it even quicker for George to Gas. Also the loosening of the ropes.

How would fighting in Zaire benifit ali if both are given the same amount of time to train? Foreman would gas quickly because he threw every punch as hard as he could. If both fought the same fight in Madison square garden, the result would have been the same.

As far as the ropes..........If you have read Thomas Hausers book on Ali you already know there are plenty of candid interviews with random people who had been around Ali and his camp at different times and through out his career. In one part of the book somebody touches on this subject (I can't remember who, maybe a reporter), and talks about how Dundee and someone else from the Ali camp actually tried to get the ropes tightened right before the fight. Now I don't know how true this is, but I have no reason to believe the ropes were intentional loosened since nobody in Ali's camp knew he was going to lay on the ropes the way he did.

How would fighting in Zaire benifit ali if both are given the same amount of time to train? Foreman would gas quickly because he threw every punch as hard as he could. If both fought the same fight in Madison square garden, the result would have been the same.

As far as the ropes..........If you have read Thomas Hausers book on Ali you already know there are plenty of candid interviews with random people who had been around Ali and his camp at different times and through out his career. In one part of the book somebody touches on this subject (I can't remember who, maybe a reporter), and talks about how Dundee and someone else from the Ali camp actually tried to get the ropes tightened right before the fight. Now I don't know how true this is, but I have no reason to believe the ropes were intentional loosened since nobody in Ali's camp knew he was going to lay on the ropes the way he did.

** The young man has a legitimate complaint, perhaps with an unfortunate thread title.

Nobody knows how true boxing is all the time. They can't even understand Valuev & Iggy/Holy, clearly exhibitions sold as title fights with the Russians wearing the cuffs to keep Holy "afloat" as they pass his legend around to pad out boxing records and gates.

The phenomenon of Ali cannot be confined to mere video. He's lionized and/or vilified for as much what he was out of the ring as in the ring.

Dundee is a terrible source of trying to establish objective reality. When asked to make a list of best fighters by weight classification, he lists mostly his own fighters for example. At any rate, can we imagine the outcries today if Oscar's corner was allowed to adjust the ropes and the ring to their preference on the eve of the Manny or Floydy bouts?

As regard to the Foreman fight, I thought it was long known George could not properly train for the delayed month of the fight because of the deep cut he'd suffered. No, not the same conditions since George was placed in abandoned army barracks, not being doted on hand and foot in lavish presidential quarters as was Ali.

Ali looks horrible in certain fights, certainly not of championship quality, and was allowed to fight with his own set of rules. It seems he was a magnet for controversy and specious results much of his career and paid a heavy price. So much written about, but most is cottage industry stuff.

Since the frail Ali is kept wrapped in cotton these days with only some few choreographed public appearances, any future efforts for the comprehensive Ali bio is going to have to rely on the substantial video archives and somehow give context to Ali's richly significant non boxing life that greatly influenced his boxing.

Might as well catch lightning in a bottle.

As far as the ropes ... I have no reason to believe the ropes were intentional loosened since nobody in Ali's camp knew he was going to lay on the ropes the way he did.

Ali has said that George was a master cutting off the ring. Ali's strategy wasn't meant to be leaning against the ropes. But in the opening round he became aware of that every time George took one step, he himself had to take three. And he knew he would never survive the heat in Zaire under such circumstances.

The rope-a-dope tactics he swift to was very dangerous, though. Ali has revealed he came close to being stopped in the 5th round. Luckily for him, at that stage of the bout George's tank had just about gone empty.

I have to disagree i have watched some old fights of Ali and when he was going he was amazing, power, speed, everything. He did get away with some things but fighters still do it today just not in the public way Ali did. For example when Oscar fought Floyd he wanted smaller gloves and a smaller ring. As for Alis wins he resume is crazy. He has wins over Frasier 2x all time great and a great lose (if there is such a thing). He has fights against Norton, Cooper, Quarry, Bonavena, Floyd Patterson, all great fighters. He did have a few moments that were ifey like against Cooper with the glove. The Foreman fight he won fair and square, he took a bad beating to the body too. Foreman writes in books that that fight haunted him, he knows he lost, he was throwing crazy amounts of hard punches other fighters would have crumbled. He was said to pee blood after that. He had a few rough decisions and maybe an early stopage but usually he was overwhelming his oppenent. The second fight with Liston is the only real question to me. In the Ali biography it says that the mob somehow got involved, could be but i doubt ALi needed the help. In the first fight he worked Liston. peace

How would fighting in Zaire benifit ali if both are given the same amount of time to train? Foreman would gas quickly because he threw every punch as hard as he could. If both fought the same fight in Madison square garden, the result would have been the same.

As far as the ropes..........If you have read Thomas Hausers book on Ali you already know there are plenty of candid interviews with random people who had been around Ali and his camp at different times and through out his career. In one part of the book somebody touches on this subject (I can't remember who, maybe a reporter), and talks about how Dundee and someone else from the Ali camp actually tried to get the ropes tightened right before the fight. Now I don't know how true this is, but I have no reason to believe the ropes were intentional loosened since nobody in Ali's camp knew he was going to lay on the ropes the way he did.


Because Foreman was already prone to gassing, and to dumb to realize the heat could tire him out. Ali, if you notice..is taking a break most of the fight, and only punching in spurts. also Ali came to Zaire before Foreman to get used to the heat.

just speculating, could be Ali was brilliant all along, I just find it funny the circumstances during that time that Ali would actually win that fight. Especially considering the shots he took in the body.

But alas, we don't know for sure - I cant discredit the man.

Ali has said that George was a master cutting off the ring. Ali's strategy wasn't meant to be leaning against the ropes. But in the opening round he became aware of that every time George took one step, he himself had to take three. And he knew he would never survive the heat in Zaire under such circumstances.

The rope-a-dope tactics he swift to was very dangerous, though. Ali has revealed he came close to being stopped in the 5th round. Luckily for him, at that stage of the bout George's tank had just about gone empty.

I agree with this. But as I said, none of it proves Ali's camp had the ropes loosened to employ this stategy. Of course Ali knew George would gas out. But the location and the circumstances had nothing to do with that. Ali was simply smart enough and tough enough to stay the course until the ko came. No doubt the heat played a part, but if Foreman didn't think he would have gotten the early ko he might have been better prepared. No funny buisness there in my opinion.

Because Foreman was already prone to gassing, and to dumb to realize the heat could tire him out. Ali, if you notice..is taking a break most of the fight, and only punching in spurts. also Ali came to Zaire before Foreman to get used to the heat.

just speculating, could be Ali was brilliant all along, I just find it funny the circumstances during that time that Ali would actually win that fight. Especially considering the shots he took in the body.

But alas, we don't know for sure - I cant discredit the man.

100% agree with you. But as I just stated, none of this proves any kind of conspiracy to beat Foreman. ali capitalized. Can't blame a man for that.

As you said, Jab5239, nothing fishy in these fights.

From the thread "Do you think the Liston/Ali fights were fixed?":
According to his wife, a few seconds into the 2nd meeting Sonny realized he couldn't beat his opponent and just took an easy way out. Ali and Liston were supposed to clash in the autumn of '64, reportedly Liston trained very hard at that moment. But Ali had to visit the hospital (hernia), and the fight was postponed. Receiving the news, it seems like Sonny lost some of his spirit.
(And, Ali not walking to neutral corner, and referee Walcott subduing to Ring editor Fleisher's yelling at ringside, these three are as much to blame as Liston for the fight's short-lived existence.)

Foreman was well spent when flattened. Later, he blamed his corner for not holding him back to spare some energy. Well, had I worked in Foreman's corner that night, I also had urged him on. Because, we all believed he was unbeatable, and that Ali would surrender rather quickly.

And yes, tapes prove that Ali's glove in the Cooper fight was already torned before the knockdown.

What I disliked during Ali's second reign, and which has been an animated discussion, was that he constantly got away with holding his opponent back the head. But as he was allowed to and it worked for him, you can't point the finger at him, but the referees who showed the legendary too much respect and never dared warning him.

Foreman said it himself, there was nothing going on.
So its not debateable

[QUOTE=Second Coming;4542461]There is also maybe five or six instances of fights being stopped by the referee when Ali's opponent takes two or three punches but still looks capable of continuing and is not in any serious danger. And again, there's alot of times his opponents dramatically drop to the floor and roll around, or play dead while the ref counts to ten when there is no clear knockout punches thrown. In all of these fights the opponents seem to recover miraculously and have no problem congratulating Ali.QUOTE]

This other "shady" business: if you're outclassed and being assaulted, knowing this is a game I can't win, you either stay down or welcome the referee's intervention.

You could argue some of the decision wins Ali received, but that goes for every boxer.

An old wives tale. Ask 15 old (British) men and they will tell you the break between rounds lasted anywhere between 3 and 10 minutes. It's just one of those silly rumours that won't die, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Cooper himself has embellished the story twenty-fold over the years. But then he was always complaining about something. If it wasn't Ali and the split glove it was Ingo knocking him out when the sun was in his eyes or Harry Gibbs stitching him up against Bugner. Angelo Dundee, too, has made a lot of contradictory statements about the incident. But these are also the two who stand to gain most from embellishing the event. Cooper, because it lets him claim he was robbed of a chance to KO Muhammad Ali, and Dundee because it makes him look like a savvy cornerman thinking on his feet to protect his fighter.

I know a couple of blokes who were at Wembley that night, and none of them recall a 5-10 minute delay. It was officially timed a few years ago by a British boxing magazine as lasting 5-10 seconds. One would think that an unusual occurrence like a long delay between rounds would be worthy of comment, yet none of the next day's newspapers mention it. No doubt there was a brief delay, and there was a split in the glove, but I've seen nothing to suggest either were as significant as some claim.

As you said, Jab5239, nothing fishy in these fights.

From the thread "Do you think the Liston/Ali fights were fixed?":
According to his wife, a few seconds into the 2nd meeting Sonny realized he couldn't beat his opponent and just took an easy way out. Ali and Liston were supposed to clash in the autumn of '64, reportedly Liston trained very hard at that moment. But Ali had to visit the hospital (hernia), and the fight was postponed. Receiving the news, it seems like Sonny lost some of his spirit.
(And, Ali not walking to neutral corner, and referee Walcott subduing to Ring editor Fleisher's yelling at ringside, these three are as much to blame as Liston for the fight's short-lived existence.)

Foreman was well spent when flattened. Later, he blamed his corner for not holding him back to spare some energy. Well, had I worked in Foreman's corner that night, I also had urged him on. Because, we all believed he was unbeatable, and that Ali would surrender rather quickly.

And yes, tapes prove that Ali's glove in the Cooper fight was already torned before the knockdown.

What I disliked during Ali's second reign, and which has been an animated discussion, was that he constantly got away with holding his opponent back the head. But as he was allowed to and it worked for him, you can't point the finger at him, but the referees who showed the legendary too much respect and never dared warning him.

This is a very good post gridiron. To me, personaly, Ali recieved a lot of preferential treatment throughout his career. There are more than a few fights where he was on the recieving end of a close decision. The most obvious being the 3rd Norton fight. But hey, even the guy I rank first all time, Louis, got a few himself. No matter what, Ali fought the best comp in history at heavyweight. and even if one thinks he should have lost a couple close ones, he was never blown out until the very end. He was a great champion, and though I've argued his place (1st or 2nd) in the past, I really have no problem with others who put him first.

it was Ingo knocking him out when the sun was in his eyes

Whether the sun was in Cooper's eyes or not, I don't know. But this KO is another example of a famous "phantom punch" like the Ali-Liston II, however never questioned.

Because, like Cooper, almost no one at the Johanneshov Stadium in Stockholm noticed the quick-delivered punch that settled the fight.
By mere chance, a lucky photographer snapped the precise moment when Ingo's hammer connected. The visitors at the Stadium could watch the photo in the newspapers the day after ... and so they saw, for the first time, what they actually had been seeing the night before.

This is a very good post gridiron. To me, personaly, Ali recieved a lot of preferential treatment throughout his career. There are more than a few fights where he was on the recieving end of a close decision. The most obvious being the 3rd Norton fight. But hey, even the guy I rank first all time, Louis, got a few himself. No matter what, Ali fought the best comp in history at heavyweight. and even if one thinks he should have lost a couple close ones, he was never blown out until the very end. He was a great champion, and though I've argued his place (1st or 2nd) in the past, I really have no problem with others who put him first.

Once again Jab, great rebuttal. Ali has had more movies made about him, books, is the most famous athlete on the planet, 19 title defenses, defeated every Heavyweight champ from Liston to Leon, had the greatest competition in the history of the sport. If he is a fraud, then boxing is a fraud. He carried the sport from 64-78. Three and a half years were robbed from him, yet he still is arguably the greatest of all-time. I am tired of seeing posts downgrading his career. Babe Ruth, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Jim Brown, MUHAMMAD ALI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ali was the very first (Louis might be the exception, help me out with this) who hadn't a "shadow" following him, i.e. he never ducked one, he took on every available challenger.

Other long-time reigning champs had their "shadows": Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano. Ali hadn't, that's what made him (the) great(est). On this subject, tribute also to another great, Larry Holmes.

Ali was the very first (Louis might be the exception, help me out with this) who hadn't a "shadow" following him, i.e. he never ducked one, he took on every available challenger.

Other long-time reigning champs had their "shadows": Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano. Ali hadn't, that's what made him (the) great(est). On this subject, tribute also to another great, Larry Holmes.

Great poiny made. I don't believe Louis ducked no one either. Holmes ducked no one, and Lennox Lewis never ducked anyone either(the only heavyweight of his era that he didn't fight was Riddick Bowe, but that wasn't caused by him ducking Bowe). Holyfield never ducked anyone either. I don't believe there was another long time reigning heavyweight champ that can make this claim. Yet no one can come close to the type of competition Ali faced. he faced everybody.

Ali was the very first (Louis might be the exception, help me out with this) who hadn't a "shadow" following him, i.e. he never ducked one, he took on every available challenger.

Other long-time reigning champs had their "shadows": Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano. Ali hadn't, that's what made him (the) great(est). On this subject, tribute also to another great, Larry Holmes.

I wouldn't say Marciano ducked anybody, there were just no great, prime heavies at the time for him to fight.

[QUOTE=1SILVA;4558176] Holmes ducked no one, [QUOTE]

I have to respectfully disagree with this. Holmes, one of the top 5 heavies all time in my opinion, missed a few guys that were deserving in that era. Tucker, Tubbs, Dokes and Coetzee come to mind. He should have also rematched Carl Williams and Tim Witherspoon. That said, he was a great fighter and should be recognized as such.

[QUOTE][QUOTE=1SILVA;4558176] Holmes ducked no one,

I have to respectfully disagree with this. Holmes, one of the top 5 heavies all time in my opinion, missed a few guys that were deserving in that era. Tucker, Tubbs, Dokes and Coetzee come to mind. He should have also rematched Carl Williams and Tim Witherspoon. That said, he was a great fighter and should be recognized as such.

Never understood why he didn't fight Dokes as both he and Holmes were promoted by King. After Dokes was destroyed by Coetzee, King wanted the fight in South Africa, but if I remember correctly, Holmes refused to fight in South Africa because of their racist aparthied. Tucker was 29-0 before Holmes lost to Spinks, but only notable victory was a 10 rounder over a washed up Jimmy Young. Tony Tubbs was a fat slob who Holmes would have beat the hell out of with his jab alone. When Holmes abdicated his WBC title in 1984 and accepted the IBF's recognition, it was because he refused to fight Greg Page. Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas were two deserving fighters that he should have given shots to. His refusal to fight Page , I believe, had more to do with his problems with Don King at the time. An argument can be made for Holmes possibly ducking Thomas Witherspoon as Terrible Tim deserved a rematch after their May 1983 fight was a very close fight. Holmes lost his title to Spinks in his very next fight after Williams, so a rematch was not possible. So an argument can be made for Holmes ducking Thomas, Witherspoon and Page.

Cooper himself has embellished the story twenty-fold over the years. But then he was always complaining about something. If it wasn't Ali and the split glove it was Ingo knocking him out when the sun was in his eyes or Harry Gibbs stitching him up against Bugner. Angelo Dundee, too, has made a lot of contradictory statements about the incident. But these are also the two who stand to gain most from embellishing the event. Cooper, because it lets him claim he was robbed of a chance to KO Muhammad Ali, and Dundee because it makes him look like a savvy cornerman thinking on his feet to protect his fighter.

I know a couple of blokes who were at Wembley that night, and none of them recall a 5-10 minute delay. It was officially timed a few years ago by a British boxing magazine as lasting 5-10 seconds. One would think that an unusual occurrence like a long delay between rounds would be worthy of comment, yet none of the next day's newspapers mention it. No doubt there was a brief delay, and there was a split in the glove, but I've seen nothing to suggest either were as significant as some claim.




Good post. I have watched that fight several times and I timed the delay at a mere 6 seconds. Not nearly enough time to save a fighter truly on the verge of getiing knocked out.

[QUOTE=them_apples;4551142]Because Foreman was already prone to gassing, and to dumb to realize the heat could tire him out. Ali, if you notice..is taking a break most of the fight, and only punching in spurts. also Ali came to Zaire before Foreman to get used to the heat.


Not true. They both arrived at the same time for the press conference and to introduce themselves to the people in Zaire.

Larry Holmes said Ali was so over rated last night on a programme about Ali and Frasier fight in phillipines thrilla in manilla.

Ali maybe was over rated because some make out he was God. And his peers probably arent all that great. But he was a great boxer, especially for a big man. And that footwork. He moved like a dancer and was fleet footed.
Ok he didnt have the biggest whack and no its no wonder his opponents recovered quickly.
But im sure he stopped opponents because the ref thought they were taking too many punches.

This amateur has no idea what he's talking about.

Okay...i can see Liston throwing the fight. But can you tell me why? Because he was owned by the mob. So it does make sense for him to throw 2 fights.

Henry Cooper. Dundee has stated in numerous accounts that he didn't "cut" anything. What he did was simply pull the stitching or laces which were already tattered to get a few more seconds to rest. That's a tactic not necessarily crooked. Not to mention this was in the 60's so they let a lot of undercover stuff go.

Foreman? He simply got worn out. And then he got knocked out.

Frazier? *****, you cannot sit there and tell me those 3 fights were flukes.

Quarry? Word on the street is that Quarry was a formidable opponent. He was #1 Heavweight contender. To the layperson, that means that he's got the top spot for a shot at the Heavweight crown.

Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams? Okay, "Big Cat" suffered from a gunshot wound to the stomach a couple years prior. Nonetheless, ALI handles him within 3 rounds.

Zora Folley? He was a good match for ALI at that time.

Muhammad ALI vs. The Government a.k.a "The Man." When was the last time you told Uncle Sam to go fcuk himself?

This amateur has no idea what he's talking about.

Okay...i can see Liston throwing the fight. But can you tell me why? Because he was owned by the mob. So it does make sense for him to throw 2 fights.

Henry Cooper. Dundee has stated in numerous accounts that he didn't "cut" anything. What he did was simply pull the stitching or laces which were already tattered to get a few more seconds to rest. That's a tactic not necessarily crooked. Not to mention this was in the 60's so they let a lot of undercover stuff go.

Foreman? He simply got worn out. And then he got knocked out.

Frazier? *****, you cannot sit there and tell me those 3 fights were flukes.

Quarry? Word on the street is that Quarry was a formidable opponent. He was #1 Heavweight contender. To the layperson, that means that he's got the top spot for a shot at the Heavweight crown.

Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams? Okay, "Big Cat" suffered from a gunshot wound to the stomach a couple years prior. Nonetheless, ALI handles him within 3 rounds.

Zora Folley? He was a good match for ALI at that time.

Muhammad ALI vs. The Government a.k.a "The Man." When was the last time you told Uncle Sam to go fcuk himself?

Game. Set. Match

I've seen people try and discredit Ali before and sorry it will never work. He may have been the most skilled and intelligent fighter of all time. No rumors or attempts to discredit him will ever change the fact that he is either the best or close to the best heavyweights of all time.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40466000/jpg/_40466249_ali_foreman_5_300.jpg

muhammad ali was no fraud man

muhammad ali was no fraud man
Can say that again his skill would have been too much for any heavyweight but P4P his not the best fighter of ATG

how dare you!!

Can say that again his skill would have been too much for any heavyweight but P4P his not the best fighter of ATG
His reflexes maybe Joe Louis could catch up with him master boxer but exposed by Frazier whats you imo

Muhammad Ali a fraud?

Dumbest question ever. Thread starter should be banned for retardation.

I can understand why anyone would question Ali's legacy. I recently watched a ton of Ali fights and felt some of the fights were a little suspect. Overall however, I have to say Ali was indeed great and is deserving of his legendary status.

My take on Ali is that he was able to beat sluggers like Foreman, Shavers & Cleveland Williams, boxers like Jimmy Ellis and Floyd Patterson and pressure fighters like Frazier, Bonavena, Liston and Chuvalo. He really took on every style.
Norton's style of jabbing with him was Ali's hardest. So, he was able to handle whoever was in there with him. He ducked nobody.

As for the prior posts in this thread, I never thought there were so many "shady" happenings. But once you look at the whole career, you can see some question marks....

Bottom line for me was that almost every other great heavyweight had his own questionable things happen in the ring. Ali in that regard just may have had a little more of them, considering his longevity and high profile.

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5689/nortonscrewthis.gif

Another HOF inductee for "the most retarded threads on BH"

This may actually be #1

your a fool....

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/5689/nortonscrewthis.gif

Another HOF inductee for "the most retarded threads on BH"

This may actually be #1
you didn't have to bump this stupidity bro

the Lyle fight was an early stoppage to.

I keep reading that, how many unanswered punches did Lyle take while weaving from one corner to another?
Maybe he was ok to continue, but he should have thrown the odd punch back to give the refereee a clue.
Lyle was winning but that isn't relevant the only thing that is relelvant is whether a fighter is able to defend himself, Lyle didn't show that

There are rumours about everything.

Facts are, Foreman was young, in his prime and coming off dominant wins over two fighters who had beaten Ali while Ali was 32 years old and had not looked too great in his recent performances. The question before the fight wasn't whether Foreman would run out of stamina, it was whether Ali could keep moving for 15 rounds in his present condition. He couldn't do that against Norton and Frazier.

No one thought laying on the ropes and standing in front of Foreman would be the way to beat him as Norton and Frazier had been quickly destroyed that way.
I have never believed that the laying on the ropes by Ali was anything other than neccessity forced by Foreman pushing him there and keeping him there. Ali didn't have the legs to do anything else, and after 5-6 rounds he noticed that Foreman was fading. With his mischievious mind, he proposed the catchy "rope-a-dope" as if it were something he invented.

I've always believed that if Foreman had not had the eye cut in sparring, neccessitating a 6 week postponement, plus the refusal of the dictator to let him leave the country, he would not have been stale, tired, and lethargic, as he undoubtedly was. his simple, credulous mind (at that time) also played abig part in his mental condition, what with witchdoctors, spells, inner voices, and such crap, he was in a rare state, not conducive to winning an important heavyweight Championship fight.

Just my opinion.

To me Foreman looked like the same destroyer who had walked through 40 opponents for the first 5 rounds. He was simply in there with a man who could take it from him and make him pay for his misses. Early on Foreman was walking through Ali's best punches without showing any signs of being affected by them. By round 5 he was starting to tire though. Ali seemed to take control after the big onslaught by Foreman on the ropes, during which Ali made Foreman miss and landed flush counter right hands that backed Foreman up for the first time in the fight.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9_VY-hUbP0k&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9_VY-hUbP0k&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
6 minutes

I have watched over 40 Muhammad Ali fights in the past two weeks, and I gotta tell ya, rather than coming to the conclusion that he's great like everyone else says, it made me wonder, are all the premature stoppages just a coincidence?

Of course, there is the main three points which come to mind when talking about this subject.

1.) Sonny Liston taking a dive.
2.) George Foreman getting to his feet at the count of 8 but the ref calling the fight.
3.) Cutting the glove against Henry Cooper.

There is also maybe five or six instances of fights being stopped by the referee when Ali's opponent takes two or three punches but still looks capable of continuing and is not in any serious danger. And again, there's alot of times his opponents dramatically drop to the floor and roll around, or play dead while the ref counts to ten when there is no clear knockout punches thrown. In all of these fights the opponents seem to recover miraculously and have no problem congratulating Ali. 25 of Ali's KO wins have came as a result of the referee stopping the fight.

To me, this is all shady business.

Let me correct you on a few things.......

Foreman was on the floor for 12 seconds against Muhammad Ali.It's the time keeper and the ref who's count which matter,not the announcer.I timed it myself,and Foreman was down 12 seconds.

It was the 2nd Ali-Liston fight that was fixed when Sonny took a dive.People try to transfer the 2nd fight to the 1st fight,which is wrong.Watch the 1st Ali-Liston fight again,and you will see Ali beating Liston fair and square.Liston quit for the same reason Roberto Duran quit against SRL.

Muhammad Ali only got an extra 5 seconds when his glove split against Henry Cooper.There never was an extra pair of gloves! That's just another myth about that fight.I have the fight and other films of the fight,and Ali only got an extra 5 seconds between rounds.That is a fact.

Muhammad Ali's TKO's were his opponents taking many punches over all the rounds,not just the round the ref's or opposing corners stopped the fights.It was a cummulation of punches that Ali stopped his opponents.A cummulation of punches over the "entire" fight.

Please name the fights(Besides Sonny Liston)that Muhammad Ali's opponents dramatically drop to the floor and roll around,or play dead while the ref counts to ten where there is no clear knock out punches thrown? You said this happened "alot" of times.Please name these fights where it happened "many times" please?

I have never believed that the laying on the ropes by Ali was anything other than neccessity forced by Foreman pushing him there and keeping him there. Ali didn't have the legs to do anything else, and after 5-6 rounds he noticed that Foreman was fading. With his mischievious mind, he proposed the catchy "rope-a-dope" as if it were something he invented.

I've always believed that if Foreman had not had the eye cut in sparring, neccessitating a 6 week postponement, plus the refusal of the dictator to let him leave the country, he would not have been stale, tired, and lethargic, as he undoubtedly was. his simple, credulous mind (at that time) also played abig part in his mental condition, what with witchdoctors, spells, inner voices, and such crap, he was in a rare state, not conducive to winning an important heavyweight Championship fight.

Just my opinion.

They said Ali beat Liston because he had a bad shoulder.

They said Ali beat Patterson because he had a bad back.

They said Ali beat Cleveland Williams because he had a bullet in him.

They said Ali beat Foreman because of about 10 different reasons.

I think i see a trend developing.Lol:nonono: