Just wondering..

Is it possible to name one or two p4p best at each decade from the 1910-1920 and up to 2008/9? And how could such a list look like?

The 50s or some would go to Robinson i guess
80's to Leonard
90's to Jones Jr.

Or am I Completely off on that one?

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/thefighters.html

Nice list, thx - i've been looking for a list like that

2000-2009 is floyd mayweather jr, no contest.

I'd go with most of that list, but probably go with Robinson or Marciano over Moore in the 50s. I also would have picked Jack Johnson over Gans and also possibly over Langford too in 1900-1919.

Leonard may well have got my vote in the 80s, his wins over Hearns, Duran and Hagler enforce this but Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson deserve a shout too though.

Lastly I'd have probably shaded Gene Tunney over Leonard in the 20s.

As for the first decade of the 21st century, Floyd just gets my vote.....Roy Jones was clearly the man till 2004 though!

Roy Jones shouldn't get the 90's because he handpicked all his opponents and took the easy way out and DUCKED B-Hop for a rematch all these years.

BHOP didn't come close to beating Jones and wasn't prepared to step up to Supermiddle.......or Lightheavy in the 90s, which is where Jones went. I personally feel Hopkins has shown his best form this century, the 90s version of Hopkins would have always lost to Jones.

The only guys Jones didn't face who may have stood the slightest chance to beat him in the 90s were.......Eubank, Benn, Collins, McClellan or Michealchezwski. The 90s Calzaghe was not the finished product so I havn't included him. I think any poll raised on this site would predict a landslide for the Jones in the 90s over any of these guys, which is why hes number one.

Whittaker, De La Hoya and Holyfield also deserve some credit for the 90s.

Is it possible to name a 4p4 best for one year?
Those ratings are just spectable.

Different styles, different challenges.
Just as comparing boxers through the decades.

"You cannot separate a champion from his time."
Sonny Liston

Just wondering..

Is it possible to name one or two p4p best at each decade from the 1910-1920 and up to 2008/9? And how could such a list look like?

The 50s or some would go to Robinson i guess
80's to Leonard
90's to Jones Jr.

Or am I Completely off on that one?
Maybe.......!850's.to 1870's.... JEM MACE.......... 1880's... Sullivan or Dempsey,,,,, ---------------!890's,.... Fitzsimmons or Dixon......----------!900's... Johnson or Jeffries .........1910's.... Darcy or Darcy... ---------------- 1920's.... Greb or Leonard.......... ------------1930's..... Armstrong or Louis....... -1940's... Robinson or Robinson or Pep........ -----------1950's... Moore or Basilio....-----------------------1960's.... CLAY or ALI.......------------1970's..... Roberto or Duran ................ 1980's,,... Ray Leonard......... and so on.

BHOP didn't come close to beating Jones and wasn't prepared to step up to Supermiddle.......or Lightheavy in the 90s, which is where Jones went. I personally feel Hopkins has shown his best form this century, the 90s version of Hopkins would have always lost to Jones.

The only guys Jones didn't face who may have stood the slightest chance to beat him in the 90s were.......Eubank, Benn, Collins, McClellan or Michealchezwski. The 90s Calzaghe was not the finished product so I havn't included him. I think any poll raised on this site would predict a landslide for the Jones in the 90s over any of these guys, which is why hes number one.

Whittaker, De La Hoya and Holyfield also deserve some credit for the 90s.

Collins or Michalczewski would've stood no chance against Roy Jones, hardly any

Nunn would've beaten him

00s - Manny Pacquiao
90s - Pernell Whitaker
80s - Ray Leonard
70s - Roberto Duran
60s - Edar Jofre
50s - Ray Robinson
40s - Ray Robinson
30s - Henry Armstrong
20s - Benny Leonard
10s - Sam Langford
00s - Bob Fitzsimmons

00s - Manny Pacquiao
90s - Pernell Whitaker
80s - Ray Leonard
70s - Roberto Duran
60s - Edar Jofre
50s - Ray Robinson
40s - Ray Robinson
30s - Henry Armstrong
20s - Benny Leonard
10s - Sam Langford
00s - Bob Fitzsimmons

Mate, Sam's prime was the 00's.... he had many poor performances after 1912....... quit on his stool against Fred Fulton..... the same Fulton that Darcy KO'd in 2 rounds in that same year. Don't get me wrong, Sam is one of my all-time favourites. But most of the fight reports on him state that he was fat, carrying a spare tyre all the time. I wish he had quit by 1915 at the latest,... poor dear Sam suffered badly from his 40's on. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Sam Langford of the 00's was a great fighting machine, he was dropped and stopped on occasion but he always beat those guys more than the other way round. It's a great list but, it's at least 90% right.

Mate, Sam's prime was the 00's.... he had many poor performances after 1912....... quit on his stool against Fred Fulton..... the same Fulton that Darcy KO'd in 2 rounds in that same year. Don't get me wrong, Sam is one of my all-time favourites. But most of the fight reports on him state that he was fat, carrying a spare tyre all the time. I wish he had quit by 1915 at the latest,... poor dear Sam suffered badly from his 40's on. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Sam Langford of the 00's was a great fighting machine, he was dropped and stopped on occasion but he always beat those guys more than the other way round. It's a great list but, it's at least 90% right.

Cut me some slack: I just started my second cup of coffee :cool9:

Poet

Cut me some slack: I just started my second cup of coffee :cool9:

Poet
I'm about to have my 15th cuppa........... lol...... I was in a devious mood....

To say that Darcy KO'd Fulton might be somewhat misleading. From what I've read, they had a sparring match or a boxing exhibition and Fulton called it quits after Darcy outboxed him for 2 rounds.

I'd say Langford was at his peak from 1907 to 1912.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/thefighters.html

Benny Leonard for the 20s is quite questionable. He was a fighter between decades.

To say that Darcy KO'd Fulton might be somewhat misleading. From what I've read, they had a sparring match or a boxing exhibition and Fulton called it quits after Darcy outboxed him for 2 rounds.

I'd say Langford was at his peak from 1907 to 1912.
There are at least half a dozen references about the incident. It was arranged for Darcy to show his wares to Tex Rickard and all the other Big-Wigs. But the reports all say the same thing...................... it was meant to be a bit of a spar, but according to those present, Darcy went at Fulton as hard as possible. They sat that Fulton was a guy who ran his mouth off and he had annoyed Darcy so much that he was riled up and had told Fulton to get ready for a very real go. Darcy was said to have been like a caged animal due to the fact that so far in America, nobody would get in the ring. As it stands, Fulton was pummelled and humiliated and barely made it to his seat. From what I can gather, Fulton was down at least once, after that, there were no challengers, and Rickard compared Darcy to Jeffries, or at least said that only Jeffries was better. I will post the version from the book on my thread, but there's a lot of posts before I get to that, It probably has the least bombasity--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If Les had lived, we wouldn't need this conversation. but it is so hard to track down info from this time period........ seems there was a war or something at the time.

To say that Darcy KO'd Fulton might be somewhat misleading. From what I've read, they had a sparring match or a boxing exhibition and Fulton called it quits after Darcy outboxed him for 2 rounds.

I'd say Langford was at his peak from 1907 to 1912.
One report I read from a newspaper said that Fulton was knocked out, That was one of the bombastic one's,.... came via Rickard...... who was trying to promote Les. ------------------------------ One thing I DO KNOW,.... after that "Spar", Fulton's stocks took a hit to his reputation, and he was not highly regarded after that point. Dempsey said that he knew of that "Spar", in an interview, and said that Darcy indeed gave Fred a 'Darn Thrashing", Dempsey had nothing but the highest regard for Darcy, and said that had looked up to Darcy as one of his heroes when he was starting out..... Dempsey said that he thought that only he could have beaten Les........ That was how Darcy was thought of by everyone in the 20's and 30's................ and that's why I think so highly of him too, NOBODY today knows what the old-time insiders knew about their own generation, Dempsey knew more about Les than any of us know..... remember that Jack Kearns had seen a lot of Darcy in action,...... and he was very jealous when Darcy told Doc that he was not interested...... in actual fact, Darcy mistrusted Kearns a lot.

Benny Leonard for the 20s is quite questionable. He was a fighter between decades.
That's right,..... list would look a lot different if you changed it to something like... 1895 - 1905......... 1905 to 1915.... 1915 to 1925 and so on.

From Raymond Swanwick's biography on Les Darcy:

"On 12th february 1917, 2 days after Darcy had begun training at Goshen, there was a heavyweight fight at the New York Sporting Club, in which Fulton knocked out Charley Weinert in the second round. Fulton was a giant from Kansas, 6 feet 11 inches tall and 15 stone in weight, who had won 18 of his 27 proffesional fights by knockouts. He was considered the logical challenger to Jess Willard- who was also a giant from Kansas, 6 feet 6 inches tall and weighing 18 stone- for the Heavyweight championship; but Willard could not be got into the ring to defend his title without very large financial guarantees."
"It occurred to Tex Rickard and Hugh Grant Brown to match Fred Fulton privately against Les Darcy in a training bout, in the pressence of only a few privileged spectators. This would be intended to test the Australians ability to fight a bigger and heavier man."
"The result could have only been a shock to anyone who might have thought that Darcy`s reputation had been overrated. In the first round he boxed with such speed that the slow moving Fulton was peppered with sparring punches and unable to make any effective counter. When the same happened in the second round, Fulton retired from the bout, and refused to continue."

From Raymond Swanwick's biography on Les Darcy:

"On 12th february 1917, 2 days after Darcy had begun training at Goshen, there was a heavyweight fight at the New York Sporting Club, in which Fulton knocked out Charley Weinert in the second round. Fulton was a giant from Kansas, 6 feet 11 inches tall and 15 stone in weight, who had won 18 of his 27 proffesional fights by knockouts. He was considered the logical challenger to Jess Willard- who was also a giant from Kansas, 6 feet 6 inches tall and weighing 18 stone- for the Heavyweight championship; but Willard could not be got into the ring to defend his title without very large financial guarantees."
"It occurred to Tex Rickard and Hugh Grant Brown to match Fred Fulton privately against Les Darcy in a training bout, in the pressence of only a few privileged spectators. This would be intended to test the Australians ability to fight a bigger and heavier man."
"The result could have only been a shock to anyone who might have thought that Darcy`s reputation had been overrated. In the first round he boxed with such speed that the slow moving Fulton was peppered with sparring punches and unable to make any effective counter. When the same happened in the second round, Fulton retired from the bout, and refused to continue."
I didn't know you had the book !!..... but yes that's what it said. And that was all I knew about it until I started to check sources....... I went through the sources to make sure I wasn't writing any lies or un-truths on my Darcy thread. I am very careful not to get my facts wrong............................................. .................................. these are most of the sources that Swanwick used. To get more information, you can look up D'Arcy Nilands efforts on Darcy, I googled Niland and came up with his interviews with Dempsey and Tunney........ and there are some of those newspaper reports on the Fulton spar. -------------------------------------- Thanks for doing your own research on Les, maybe you can find stuff on him that I don't know about. In fact all of the big names from that era have some amazing reading on them out there,.......... Battling Nelson for interest.

From Raymond Swanwick's biography on Les Darcy:

"On 12th february 1917, 2 days after Darcy had begun training at Goshen, there was a heavyweight fight at the New York Sporting Club, in which Fulton knocked out Charley Weinert in the second round. Fulton was a giant from Kansas, 6 feet 11 inches tall and 15 stone in weight, who had won 18 of his 27 proffesional fights by knockouts. He was considered the logical challenger to Jess Willard- who was also a giant from Kansas, 6 feet 6 inches tall and weighing 18 stone- for the Heavyweight championship; but Willard could not be got into the ring to defend his title without very large financial guarantees."
"It occurred to Tex Rickard and Hugh Grant Brown to match Fred Fulton privately against Les Darcy in a training bout, in the pressence of only a few privileged spectators. This would be intended to test the Australians ability to fight a bigger and heavier man."
"The result could have only been a shock to anyone who might have thought that Darcy`s reputation had been overrated. In the first round he boxed with such speed that the slow moving Fulton was peppered with sparring punches and unable to make any effective counter. When the same happened in the second round, Fulton retired from the bout, and refused to continue."
From the N.Z. TRUTH; - A bystanders quote on the darcy V Fulton incident : ---It is just a long paragraph ; This is the bit:-- Mr. Bob Laga, who accompanied Mel Coogan and Fred Jacks as their manager to Australia, is all American from the crown of his hat to the soles of his shoes, but he hands it to Australia that she produced easily the worlds best Middleweight in Les Darcy. He saw Les work out with that six foot-Odd fighting plasterer, Fred FULTON. "It was a meal for your boy", said Laga. "He smiled his taking boyish smile, stepped up close, waving his head in neatly, in under Fulton's swings, and dropped his bigger and much heavier opponent, with one of the sweetest, neatest and shortest left hands I have ever seen put over. Why Darcy would have waltzed Home a winner against Johnny WILSON, and as for Dave ROSENBURG, upon whom the New York Boxing Commision has bestowed Wilson's Middle Title, a punch is all Darcy would have needed to lick him. Just one of those neat little lefts he placed on Fulton. He was a natural fighter, and they're always the best". ---------------------------------------------------------------- There are other great boxing tidbits in this newspaper,..... here is the link.. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=newssearch&cd=25&ved=0CDwQqQIwBDgU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpaperspast.natlib.govt.nz%2Fcgi-bin%2Fpaperspast%3Fa%3Dd%26d%3DNZTR19221111.2.67.6&ei=vy15Tv_JMeLnmAXmtbTOAQ&usg=AFQjCNGTJkGtNYj5TYNBe2hYzzCRZs84Sw&sig2=5rTZxQ0-v7bD4AhDBjRjdg

2000s Pacquiao/Hopkins
1990s Roy Jones
1980s Leonard
1970s Ali

00s - Manny Pacquiao
90s - Pernell Whitaker
80s - Ray Leonard
70s - Roberto Duran
60s - Edar Jofre
50s - Ray Robinson
40s - Ray Robinson
30s - Henry Armstrong
20s - Benny Leonard
10s - Sam Langford
00s - Bob Fitzsimmons


is Jofre the best of the 60's? what are some alternatives? Jofre was great but the 60's was a deep era was it not?

i'm glad you got the pac man at 00's. He's the one fighting everyone.

One report I read from a newspaper said that Fulton was knocked out, That was one of the bombastic one's,.... came via Rickard...... who was trying to promote Les. ------------------------------ One thing I DO KNOW,.... after that "Spar", Fulton's stocks took a hit to his reputation, and he was not highly regarded after that point. Dempsey said that he knew of that "Spar", in an interview, and said that Darcy indeed gave Fred a 'Darn Thrashing", Dempsey had nothing but the highest regard for Darcy, and said that had looked up to Darcy as one of his heroes when he was starting out..... Dempsey said that he thought that only he could have beaten Les........ That was how Darcy was thought of by everyone in the 20's and 30's................ and that's why I think so highly of him too, NOBODY today knows what the old-time insiders knew about their own generation, Dempsey knew more about Les than any of us know..... remember that Jack Kearns had seen a lot of Darcy in action,...... and he was very jealous when Darcy told Doc that he was not interested...... in actual fact, Darcy mistrusted Kearns a lot.

1) When Sam quit 'against' Fulton he was already past it...it was way after Sam's prime...it was also teh fight in which Sam allegedly damaged his eye which made him blind later on.I would doubt Darcy will do anything else when he over 30 and blind in one eye.

2) Darcy KO'ing out Fulton is questionable...there are no primary source.

3) There was no better P4P fighter than Sam in that time...Poet is quite right.

4) "Mr. Bob Laga"--I will look into this, and Dempsey could not have seen Darcy - Fulton fight, and even if it happened Darcy might have Knocked down Fulton not out...starnger things have happened in sparring...you Spar so that you get you rlicks there not in the match.
I doubt it proves Darcy beats Fulton in a real fight ....

1) When Sam quit 'against' Fulton he was already past it...it was way after Sam's prime...it was also teh fight in which Sam allegedly damaged his eye which made him blind later on.

2) Darcy KO'ing out Fulton is questionable...there are a few primary source.

3) There was no better P4P fighter than Sam in that time...Poet is quite right.

4) "Mr. Bob Laga"--I will look into this, and Dempsey could not have seen Darcy - Fulton fight, and even if it happened Darcy might have Knocked down Fulton not out...starnger things have happened in sparring...you Spar so that you get you rlicks there not in the match.

"darcy caused fulton to stop is distress after 2 rounds"
The best ever Australian sports writing: a 200 year collection By David John Headon.

Again this was not an actual match, we will never know what would have happenned...Darcy might have exposed a weakness, or made Fulton feel uneasy but this is sparring remember.

One last thing,

this incident was to the best of my knowledge never ever posted in a newspaper of that time...which is strange....

NZ Truth posts it from a guy, we don't even know was there or should be there. The article is of 11 November 1922, well after the incident and Darcy;s death.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F70814FD3F5E11738DDDA80A94DB405B878DF1D3

The only close source I know which proves they could have sparred , can McGoorty or others give me any other contemporary news paper report to prove this happened.

On a side note if this happened, may be it provided the blue print for Jack Dempsey to KO out fulton in 10 seconds, get under his arms and sock him...no wonder some section of the press thought they were similar.

is Jofre the best of the 60's? what are some alternatives? Jofre was great but the 60's was a deep era was it not?

i'm glad you got the pac man at 00's. He's the one fighting everyone.

He's the one fighting everyone after they just got beat. Strange way to the top of the p4p list. Let's put Calzaghe then, he beat Hopkins and Jones after all...

This is a hell of a outhg question because many guys have been on top for a decade but not a 00-09 decade. This forces me to leave whitaker out, as leonard did more in the 80s, and jones in the 90s. Anyways let's try

00s - Floyd Mayweather Jr.
90s - Roy Jones Jr.
80s - Ray Leonard
70s - Roberto Duran
60s - Muhammad Ali (I know know, but IMO he showed the most amazing boxing of the decade, if only for a few years)
50s - Archie Moore (not too convinced, but it seems the logical pick)
40s - Ray Robinson
30s - Henry Armstrong

Up to here I am good, but I am not confident on the rest of my list

20s - Benny Leonard
10s - Sam Langford
00s - Joe Gans

This is a hell of a outhg question because many guys have been on top for a decade but not a 00-09 decade. This forces me to leave whitaker out, as leonard did more in the 80s, and jones in the 90s. Anyways let's try

00s - Floyd Mayweather Jr.
90s - Roy Jones Jr.
80s - Ray Leonard
70s - Roberto Duran
60s - Muhammad Ali (I know know, but IMO he showed the most amazing boxing of the decade, if only for a few years)
50s - Archie Moore (not too convinced, but it seems the logical pick)
40s - Ray Robinson
30s - Henry Armstrong

Up to here I am good, but I am not confident on the rest of my list

20s - Benny Leonard
10s - Sam Langford
00s - Joe Gans

I know you and Poet have selected the same person, but I will go with Greb in the 20's...

Leonard was great in his class, the best...But I often ask the question did the guy fight guys outside his weight class, and if yes, how did he do...If he didn't I dont hold that against him but if yes its definitely a big plus.

Greb beat many heavyweights and light heavyweights during that time and gave some amazing performnces...He was actually very dominant in his won weight...Seldom have we seen a middle weight champ who was a light heavy champ during the same decade and also an active HW contender during the same period, and who even today many think the HW champ of the time ducked...

I will have him in the 20's as the best P4P....

By the by good effort , both you and Poet.

I know you and Poet have selected the same person, but I will go with Greb in the 20's...

Leonard was great in his class, the best...But I often ask the question did the guy fight guys outside his weight class, and if yes, how did he do...If he didn't I dont hold that against him but if yes its definitely a big plus.

Greb beat many heavyweights and light heavyweights during that time and gave some amazing performnces...He was actually very dominant in his won weight...Seldom have we seen a middle weight champ who was a light heavy champ during the same decade and also an active HW contender during the same period, and who even today many think the HW champ of the time ducked...

I will have him in the 20's as the best P4P....

By the by good effort , both you and Poet.

Two things.

1) Let me repeat I am not confident at all with my 1900-10-20 picks.

2) I totally forgot about Greb. Shame on me. His existence entirely slipped my mind. I need to think about it, but guts reaction makes me think you are right. Will be back later

What do you think about Ali in the 60s? I am debating with myself.

1) Let me repeat I am not confident at all with my 1900-10-20 picks.

Actually its not like a correction...I just said what I felt...

2) I totally forgot about Greb. Shame on me. His existence entirely slipped my mind. I need to think about it, but guts reaction makes me think you are right. Will be back later


All of us are never on the mark every time, what matters is you are on the mark most of the time...

What do you think about Ali in the 60s? I am debating with myself

Can I ask a question in return? I understand your reserevations against Jofre...what do you think of Ortiz...the guy held title in two weight classes.
I do know that Ali's case is strong though...Still what made you consider him over Ortiz

.
Can I ask a question in return? I understand your reserevations against Jofre...what do you think of Ortiz...the guy held title in two weight classes.
I do know that Ali's case is strong though...Still what made you consider him over Ortiz

Well Ortiz, Jofre and Ali were the potential picks IMO. Jofre lost to Harada, and his comeback is stuff of the 70s. Ortiz lost to Loi, (and later again to Cruz, but that part does not bother me). Nothing shameful in that, as both (or rather all 4, are losses to great fighters), but... Ali had cleaned up HW, dominating everyone, and showing some of the most incredible boxing ever to be seen in a HW ring. As a cherry, he also won a gold medal in that decade. But to go against my pick, all of that lasted only 4 years, so I can perfectly relate to picking Jofre or Ortiz.

Emile Griffith has an argument for the 60s as well I feel, although he wasn't as consistent as the others.

As a general rule I don't put Heavies on p4p lists so Ali is out for the 1960s. I'd be comfortable with Ortiz over Jofre, although I think Jofre is a better fighter it's close. Of the other alternatives Foster's comp was too weak and I've never been high on Monzon. Griffith is a possibility but he never seemed to me to be that dominant over his peers.

Poet

As a general rule I don't put Heavies on p4p lists

Poet


But, don't you believe a heavyweight can be the best fighter in the world?

On Benny Leonard..... knowledgeable boxing people considered him the finest p4p fighter they'd ever seen until Robinson came along.

Poet

But, don't you believe a heavyweight can be the best fighter in the world?

No. You can always find a more skilled fighter in the lower weight classes with more speed, faster reflexes ect.

Poet

No. You can always find a more skilled fighter in the lower weight classes with more speed, faster reflexes ect.

Poet


So, if you were to list the 1000 best fighters in the history of boxing, Pazienza gets on it but Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis do not?

So, if you were to list the 1000 best fighters in the history of boxing, Pazienza gets on it but Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis do not?

On general principle they would not make the list as they're Heavyweights.....I'm pretty sure I could find 1,000 fighters better than Pazienza. And I happen to like Vinny btw.

Poet

On general principle they would not make the list as they're Heavyweights.....I'm pretty sure I could find 1,000 fighters better than Pazienza. And I happen to like Vinny btw.

Poet

Paz was just an example....and that also means you can name 1000 fighters who were better than Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali.

You are holding their size and the laws of nature/gravity against them. It's awfully hard for folks of their size to have the speed of guys much smaller than them.

Paz was just an example....and that also means you can name 1000 fighters who were better than Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali.

You are holding their size and the laws of nature/gravity against them. It's awfully hard for folks of their size to have the speed of guys much smaller than them.

What do you think p4p is? You make everyone the same size and now who are the best fighters. Heavies automatically lose their size and strength advantages under those circumstances. The whole point of p4p, really the only thing it's good for, is to give props to guys in lower weight classes that get overlooked while everybody is morbidly obsessing over the Heavyweights.

Poet

So, if you were to list the 1000 best fighters in the history of boxing, Pazienza gets on it but Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis do not?
No not if it was up to me. But I do believe that there are greater fighters in the other weights the majority of the time. But nobody in their right mind would not have Ali or Louis in the top 30 at least. Louis is top 10 in my opinion, guy was a genius, Ali was a genius too, with a better chin and bigger man, but I think I have Louis ahead. I think when a special HW comes along, boxing becomes a winner again............================================= ================================================== Special HW's capture the general public's imagination, and reach heights of fame that lower weight fighters can never attain, no matter how brilliant. It is the real fan that digs the lower divisions, speed, more willingness to mix it is what gets the real fan's juices flowing.

What do you think p4p is? You make everyone the same size and now who are the best fighters. Heavies automatically lose their size and strength advantages under those circumstances. The whole point of p4p, really the only thing it's good for, is to give props to guys in lower weight classes that get overlooked while everybody is morbidly obsessing over the Heavyweights.

Poet


Flip it around- make Manny Pacquiao or Ray Leonard 6'2", 220lbs, and they lose their speed....don't they?

IMO, lb4lb was created so the smaller guys could be INCLUDED in the discussion of who the best fighters in the world are, sincethe conscensus is they lose in actual fights to the big men.

I prefer watching the non-heavies fight, because I like to see the faster speeds and better stamina. But, I see that nature has held back a big man's abilities to acheive those things, while nature has also held back the smaller man's ability to actually defeat that big man in a real fight.

Yes, the heavyweights get more attention and money than superior-fighting smaller fighters just because of the "bigger is better" mentality. But, that's a public perception problem.....which won't lead me to slighting the heavies.

Flip it around- make Manny Pacquiao or Ray Leonard 6'2", 220lbs, and they lose their speed....don't they?

IMO, lb4lb was created so the smaller guys could be INCLUDED in the discussion of who the best fighters in the world are, sincethe conscensus is they lose in actual fights to the big men.

The entire concept of p4p was invented in the 30s or 40s to counter the obsession with the Heavies. I use it for what it was designed for, no more no less. I'm not going to be particularly sympathetic to Heavies screaming "no fair" since they get all the attention as it is.

Poet

The entire concept of p4p was invented in the 30s or 40s to counter the obsession with the Heavies. I use it for what it was designed for, no more no less. I'm not going to be particularly sympathetic to Heavies screaming "no fair" since they get all the attention as it is.

Poet

I don't think it was designed to exclude heavies.

I don't think it was designed to exclude heavies.

I think so. I take it literally.

To me it means... Would a pound of willie pep beat a pound of Jack Dempsey? Let's talk about it!


On top of that, I mean... we do include CW in p4p lists right? well people that are 200 in the era of weigh in the day before were definitely above 175 in the era of same day weigh in.

I think so. I take it literally.

To me it means... Would a pound of willie pep beat a pound of Jack Dempsey? Let's talk about it!


On top of that, I mean... we do include CW in p4p lists right? well people that are 200 in the era of weigh in the day before were definitely above 175 in the era of same day weigh in.
Includes any boxer period..... CW's are just as legitimate,... it all depends on class and record.

Includes any boxer period..... CW's are just as legitimate,... it all depends on class and record.

exactly my point

I think so. I take it literally.

To me it means... Would a pound of willie pep beat a pound of Jack Dempsey? Let's talk about it!


On top of that, I mean... we do include CW in p4p lists right? well people that are 200 in the era of weigh in the day before were definitely above 175 in the era of same day weigh in.

Willie Pep is faster/quicker than Jack Dempsey because he is smaller, just like Dempsey hits harder and is physically stronger than Pep because he is larger.
Remember to slow down Pep if you're gonna weaken Dempsey.

On Benny Leonard..... knowledgeable boxing people considered him the finest p4p fighter they'd ever seen until Robinson came along.

Poet

In todays P4P lists of all knowledable historians and people in general , do Benny Leonard rank over harry Greb...I bet Greb is ranked much higher than Leonard today in most lists.

No harm in rating Leonard over Greb, but for me personally , Greb's body of work in 20's overshadows of that of Leonard. And I am strictly going by resume.

In todays P4P lists of all knowledable historians and people in general , do Benny Leonard rank over harry Greb...I bet Greb is ranked much higher than Leonard today in most lists.

No harm in rating Leonard over Greb, but for me personally , Greb's body of work in 20's overshadows of that of Leonard. And I am strictly going by resume.
Yes, but to a point.... their contemporaries, well most of them held Leonard higher than Greb, remember they had seen both men fight many times, that is an insight that we can never have.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I myself rate Leonard higher, as I rate Leonard as #1 LW.... and I'm not sure how Greb should be rated at Middleweight. I've read some boxing articles from the late 20's (thanks to you), where some writers are lamenting the lack of good MW's in the 20's, and where they state that the MW's like Darcy, Ketchel, Fitzsimmons, Gibbons, McGoorty, and Ryan, were far better than the 20's MW's., This writer mentioned Darcy in particular, and he said that Darcy would have won easily against Walker. One very strange thing tough....... this writer never even mentions Harry Greb,... not one...... I find that very strange,,,, why ??? what is going on in the 20's ?????

Yes, but to a point.... their contemporaries, well most of them held Leonard higher than Greb, remember they had seen both men fight many times, that is an insight that we can never have.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I myself rate Leonard higher, as I rate Leonard as #1 LW.... and I'm not sure how Greb should be rated at Middleweight. I've read some boxing articles from the late 20's (thanks to you), where some writers are lamenting the lack of good MW's in the 20's, and where they state that the MW's like Darcy, Ketchel, Fitzsimmons, Gibbons, McGoorty, and Ryan, were far better than the 20's MW's., This writer mentioned Darcy in particular, and he said that Darcy would have won easily against Walker. One very strange thing tough....... this writer never even mentions Harry Greb,... not one...... I find that very strange,,,, why ??? what is going on in the 20's ?????

Greb was rated as the best middle weight during that time and also was an active heavyweight contender whose light heavy weight resume is on par with the best light heavy weights of all time. Now as for as P4P many still rank Leonard over Greb...its not unjust...those who saw benny must have been blown away by his pure skills more than Greb's who was more of a pressure fighter, not the kind which will please many purists...which might explain why many ranked benny higher.

But his P4P resume overshadows Leonard's by some margin IMO.


Well I rank Greb high in middle weights...I doubt many middle weights of the past were better than Walker and Greb beat him..I doubt if many of them would have beaten Tunney, Greb beat him, and by newspaper accounts it doesnt look he did it once only.Greb beat a Gibbons, who although past prime was still good...he beat Tommy Gibbons handily who was a good customer.Eddie McGoorty, Frank Mantell, Jeff Smith and Bryan Downey were not bad weren't they? Also Greb beat Mike O’Dowd, George Chip, Al McCoy and atleast won one bout from Tiger Flowers in his last fight, which was by all accounts a robbery.

My point simply is did Ketchel beat Fitz or vice versa? I doubt many of the past had multiple ATG middle weight names in their resumes...or simply more than Greb by a substantial margin...

Monzoon ranks high at middle weight ( I have him in top 3) , do you think he has some one of Walker's calibre in his resume? Greb was great...and deserves a high middle weight ranking.

Willie Pep is faster/quicker than Jack Dempsey because he is smaller, just like Dempsey hits harder and is physically stronger than Pep because he is larger.
Remember to slow down Pep if you're gonna weaken Dempsey.
We're not talking just P4P here because when someone asked Willie what he thought of Ray Robinson being called the Pound for Pound..... Pep's response was, "Then I'm the greatest fighter OUNCE for OUNCE.

Maybe.......!850's.to 1870's.... JEM MACE.......... 1880's... Sullivan or Dempsey,,,,, ---------------!890's,.... Fitzsimmons or Dixon......----------!900's... Johnson or Jeffries .........1910's.... Darcy or Darcy... ---------------- 1920's.... Greb or Leonard.......... ------------1930's..... Armstrong or Louis....... -1940's... Robinson or Robinson or Pep........ -----------1950's... Moore or Basilio....-----------------------1960's.... CLAY or ALI.......------------1970's..... Roberto or Duran ................ 1980's,,... Ray Leonard......... and so on.

That's my boy there. The only addition I feel has to be mentioned is Tommy Sayer. 110 to 155 pounds of solid, proper, **** you up. 12-1-3 ain't bad for LPRR...Jem was bad as **** I don't mean to contend his bad assedness but Tommy was always the little man