From: EddieBravo
Date: 16-Oct-03 08:41 PM
Member Since: 09-May-02
1481 Total Posts


Most gi players hold on to their opponents collar for everything; sweeps, guard passes, mount control and ESPECIALLY to set up submissions, now that's the real problem.

Most gi players use the threat of the collar choke to set up arm bars, triangles, oma platas etc. Alot of gi players end up spending years setting up their submissions with the collar, that's the real problem.

Once the gi comes off, alot of gi players find themselves without submission set ups. That's why you "rarely" see a Mundial champion who's a finishing machine in Abu Dhabi, and especially in MMA.

Can anyone name a Mundial champion who is submitting most of their opponents in MMA?

I can't think of one, but there might be one or two out there, somewhere. (Marcello Garcia has the ability to be that one rare BJJ black belt that tapps everyone out in MMA).

It's very simple; if spend most of your BJJ years setting up submissions with the collar, you will not be known as a finishing machine in submission wrestling or MMA.

Every wrestler knows how to execute a double leg takedown, a single leg takedown, high crotch, ankle pick etc. What seperates the great wrestlers from the not so great wrestlers has mostly to do with their set ups.

Every boxer knows how to throw a cross, jab, uppercut, hook etc. What seperates the great boxers from the not so great boxers has mostly to do with how they set their punches up(combinations).

Of course speed, endurance, mental toughness, and athletisism play a part as well, but without a doubt, how you set up your opponent is the most important aspect of not only the combative sports, but all sports in general.

Right now in MMA, there is only a handful of BJJ black belts that are known as submission wizards: Mino, Serra, Javi Vasquez, Bustamante, Lister..........(Damn, I can't think of any more right now).

Why? They developed no-gi set ups.

Bottom line:

Collar habits are bad no-gi habits and sometimes bad habits are hard to break. If you want to be a finisher without the gi or in MMA, you must drop the collar control and learn to set up submissions with head control. It's not easy mastering head control, as a matter of fact it takes a long time, but there really is no other way, especially when it comes to submissions from the guard.

good read i agree with that i think gi's are a disadvantage in maa cause they get you hot qicker and make you sweat more

Very good perspective. i totally agree. i dont train gi, but i can see where the problem lies with those that depend on the gi for set up, escapes and all that shit. but when the gi comes off.... its like a different world. i think its better to train without gi, so when you later train gi.... you still are adapted to your set up and escapes, etc. after you learn all that, then the gi shit is all extra moves and styles of going for submission and defending in some sorta way.

great read. thanks.

TTT

Tell this to yoshida ;)

I think its beneficial both ways depending on the person.
The Royce school here trains gi in the winter months, no gi in the summer.

I agree to. It pisses me off because my school is heading more for the gi. I can't stand it.

I understand what Eddie is saying and who am I to challebge what he says. However BJJ and Sub-Wrestling, eventhough related, are different sports with a different approach.

BJJ you have a gi, so use it. Sub-Wrestling you do not so train for it and set up your moves acordingly.

I can do some takedowns that apply to both, however it does not mean that I'm going to successfully hit every takedown I know. I bet if an exellent wrestler puts the gi and tries to hit a double leg on me I have a better chance to defend than with out.

so it goes both ways. Nevertheless, good read and Eddie is a wizard on the ground.

P.S. He forgot to mention one of the best BJJ with out the gi Hermes Franca!!!!

Carlao, he was talking mostly about MMA. Therefore the training with a gi is a disadvantage. If he were talking exclusively about submission grappling tournaments then your argument would hold water.

Everyone should train No-gi for MMA in the states. But alot of people who train are not really interested in MMA but grappling tournies and such like Carlao was saying. If you plan on fighting in NHB it's better to train no gi.....

MMA and Sub-Wrestling ground work is not the same. So I beleive my argument still holds strong.

In Sub- Wrestling you do not have to worry about nayone punching the crap out of you while you try a half guard sweep, or slamming you when you try an armbar, or kick your mouth in when you shoot a double leg.

I just got finished reading Eddie's post in the UG and I can understand his train of touhgt, however it seem that he fails to forget that many BJJ'ers do not want to make that transition to MMA, to include himself.

BJJ, Sub-Wrestling, MMA 3 different sport with similar basis. Nevertheless different sports!

Originally posted by Carlao
BJJ, Sub-Wrestling, MMA 3 different sport with similar basis. Nevertheless different sports!

totally agreed.

another good fighter without a gi is emanuel yarborough

LOL @ Yarborough!!!

I think gi training gives you a wonderful base for no-gi submission grappling. Gi training makes your game tighter. I think giving up the gi is fine, but IMO its best to start out using it.

Eddie wore one himself till he got his blackbelt, so he can't really say he knows how great no-gi training is personally. I respect Eddie 100% but I happen to disagree that the gi shouldn't be worn. I do like his ideas about controlling the head instead of the collar though.