Sonny Liston was the baddest fighter in the history of Planet Earth - inside or outside the ring.

Sonny Liston's fists were a massive 14 inches around (or 15 inches, depending on whom you ask), and Sonny's wing span was a ridiculous 84 inches - the greatest wingspan (reach) of any heavyweight champion in boxing history, with the exception of Primo Carnera.

Sonny Liston destroyed all of the top-ranked heavyweights of his day (except for the ones who refused to fight him), including Zora Folley, Eddie Machen and Cleveland Williams.

(Muhammad Ali's handlers, most notably Angeo Dundee, continually ducked Folley, Machen, and, most especially, the fearsome Cleveland Williams, while Ali was on the way up. During their repeated verbal sparring sessions, which occurred over a period of many months, prior to their first fight, Sonny Liston often told Ali to "go fight Cleveland Williams, and then get back to me." Ali's handlers were not stupid - they knew Williams would demolish Ali, whom Liston knocked out twice in two of the most vicious brawls in heavyweight boxing history.)

Henry Cooper, the former British Heavyweight Champion, flat-out refused to fight Sonny Liston - under any circumstances. Cooper knocked Ali down in their first fight with a thunderous left hook (Ali would have been knocked out if the bell hadn't saved him), and Cooper had been quoted as saying, on more than one occasion, "If Mr. Liston approached me on the street, I would walk the other way."

Ingemar Johanssen, who was the reigning heavyweight champion at the time, when Liston was busy cleaning out the division in the early 1960's, constantly ducked Sonny Liston...Liston called him out on several occasions in front of the national media, but the silence from Johanssen was deafening. Johanssen had won the title by knocking out the former champion, Floyd Patterson.

During a 1987 interview, Floyd Patterson said he was convinced Liston threw both fights to Ali. According to Patterson, Ali's cut man for the first fight had contacted all of his friends and relatives before the fight and told them that it was fixed, and that they should bet everything they had on Ali (this was also mentioned in a casino sports betting paper in 1991, as well).

Liston's handlers and cornermen got wind of the scheme and put their money down on the "sure thing", and everybody cleaned up - due to the 7-1 odds against Ali at the time of the first fight. In the second fight, Liston was STILL the favorite, the odds were 7-5 in Liston's favor - and all the wise guys cleaned up yet again.

Six months after supposedly knocking out Liston with a six-inch right hand, Ali could not finish off a badly injured Patterson (who foolishly went into the fight with a very bad back).


Sonny Liston absolutely mauled Floyd Patterson, knocking him out in the first round - TWICE.

Sonny Liston did time in prisons and prison camps. He beat the hell out of both inmates and guards, while incarcerated. Liston was constantly harassed by the Feds (J. Edgar Hoover had Liston on his "suspicious persons" list), the police and the Mob. He was followed by policemen almost everywhere he went. Liston once got into a brawl with six policeman who proceeded to beat Liston over the head with billy clubs - yet Liston survived the clubbing, and took all six of the policemen OUT. And yet...Ali's ridiculous "phantom punch" knocked out Liston? Please...as P.T. Barnum once said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

Both fights with Ali were fixed, and this is a fact, not speculation - and people who were close to both Liston and Ali have admitted as much over the years. Liston's bodyguard at the time of the first Ali fight, asked Sonny if he should bet more money than he already had on Liston to win. Sonny told him that boxing was funny and you never knew who would actually come out on top in a heavyweight championship fight. After Liston failed to come out of his corner for the 7th round during the first Ali fight, Liston's bodyguard knew what was up. He asked Liston later, why he hadn't bothered to inform him that the fight had been fixed. to which Liston said, "With your big mouth, we would have both ended up in the river wearing concrete shoes...I just did what I was told."

Watch Sonny Liston's fights. Pay close attention to all the fights you can lay your hands on before the Ali (Clay) fights. Liston routinely knocked fighters' senseless with his JAB (he also knocked more than a few heavyweights' TEETH out with that same left jab). And his right hand was absolutely fearsome. Sonny could knock you out with either hand.

But, mysteriously, when he fought Ali the first time, he threw a total of maybe FIVE right hands during the entire fight. And most of those right hands were fly-swatter punches. If you watch all of his other fights leading up to the first Ali fight, you will notice that he set boxers up with his left, and when he went for the kill, he used lefts and rights in combination, especially a powerful straight right, or right hook to the head. (Or a right uppercut, he had a ferocious right uppercut.) He threw a good number of right hands in every single fight he ever fought - except for the Ali fights.

The eyes don't lie. Watch the fights.

There exists reams and reams of evidence that overwhelmingly proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that Sonny Liston threw both fights with Ali. (Read "The Devil and Sonny Liston," by author Nick Tosches, for starters.)

And consider this -

Ever watch Ali's fight with Doug Jones? This fight took place about 11 months before Ali's first fight with Liston. Doug Jones was a journeyman light heavyweight (14.5 pounds lighter than Ali during the time of their fight at Madison Square Garden on March 13, 1963)...Ali's handlers wouldn't let Muhammad fight Cleveland Williams or Zora Folley or Eddie Machen, or ANY of the top contenders of the day, so Ali agreed to fight Doug Jones, as one of his two tune-ups for the first fixed fight with Liston.

Jones was the agressor duing the entire fight with Ali, and he came forward incessantly with great success - despite the great disparity in their weights (and the alleged disparity in their boxing prowess). Ali won a unanimous decision in this fight, and many observers thought that THIS fight was fixed, and that Jones had clearly won, despite Ali's strong showing in the last two rounds of this 10-round fight. You can watch this fight on DVD, or online...ESPN sometimes shows it on their "ESPN Classics" channel. Listen to the boos and watch the reaction of the Madison Square Garden crowd after you watch it...I watched this fight and I thought that it was, in the very least, a draw...Jones won at least five of the first seven rounds, and if I had to pick a winner on the night in question, it would have been Jones...Doug Jones stunned Ali in the first round with a good shot to the head.

Watch the fight. Then tell me that Ali is "The Greatest"...

Henry Cooper knocked Ali down (and almost out) with one punch. Chuck Wepner knocked Ali down with one punch. Joe Frazier knocked Ali down with one punch. Sonny Banks knocked Ali down with one punch.

Nobody ever knocked Sonny Liston down with one punch - except Muhammad Ali...

Contary to popular opinion, Muhammad Ali was one of the most overrated fighters in history.

And he got the title handed to him via a total setup.

Think about this - if the Liston/Ali fights were fixed (which they were), how many other Ali fights were fixed? Tell me that a boxer who gets knocked down by Henry Cooper is one of the greatest fighters in history? Tell me that a boxer who loses a fight to Doug Jones (a journeyman light heavyweight), is one of the greatest fighters in history? How many more of Ali's fights were fixed. Watch the movie "Raging Bull" and ponder this important question...

Boxing's murky past is checkered with countless fixed fights, various and sundry Mob goings-on, and sordid, shady dealings behind closed doors. It's a fact of life, and anybody on the inside will tell you this. The same holds true for ALL professional sports, but that is not the subject of this post.

Sonny Liston was the most fearsome (and accomplished) heavyweight champion in history. And in my humble but informed opinion, he would have knocked out Jack Johnson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Mike Tyson and yes, even Rocky Marciano. (During a made-for-TV boxing special back in the mid-1980's, an in-his-prime, Heavyweight Champion Mike Tyson admitted that he would have been afraid of fighting only one man in heavyweight boxing history - Sonny Liston.)

Nobody could stand up to Sonny Liston - unless the outcome had already been predetermined.

***Interesting sidenote - Much has been made over the years of Liston's alleged (and absolutely irrefutable) Mob connections...Sonny Liston won the last fight of his career, in June of 1970 against Chuck Wepner...and many people have alleged over the years that Liston was supposed to take a dive in the Wepner fight, but he refused...six months after the Wepner fight, Liston turns up dead - the result of an alleged "heroin overdose," which is a circumstance that seems very unlikely, in the least, given the fact that it was common knowledge among anyone who ever knew him, that Sonny Liston, the baddest fighter in the history of Planet Earth, was deathly afraid of only one thing - needles.

look it was a decent read and a good first post but i dont neccessarily agree with it all


i do think that the 2nd fight between the two may have been fixed, yes....

liston had a great chin and the bit you mentioned about the cops with the bats is true yeah...but i dunno you cant rule out the fact ali landed a short right that caught liston cold...

but yeah good work putting that together... and yes sonny was a great and very underrated fighter

Whether or not the fights were fixed calling Ali one of the most overrated in history is a little over the top.

The Doug Jones fight is very hard to score and the film is too old to do it with real conviction. It was very hard fought and I would agree with the 5-4-1 verdict turned it by two of the judges.

It was also the first of 6 "FOTY's" that involved Muhammad Ali, of which he won 4.

Arguably the only person in heavyweight history as fearsome as Liston was the young Foreman and Ali defeated him in a fight that, had i been around, would have bet my life on him losing.

I don't want to believe that the first fight ws fixed but I have always been conscious of the possibility, the second one was certainly fixed.

I can't even guess how Liston would have gone about throwing a fight to Chuck Wepner because it would have been so obvious he would have been arrested on the spot.

I don't think the second fight was fixed at all. I think Liston just realised he was fighting a man who had the better of him and he stayed down.

Good read and I have always suspected both fights were fixed but I can never say for sure they were.

But Ali was one hell of a fighter, you say he avoided Folley,Machen and Williams on the way up yet he fought both Folley and Williams and put on a masterclass. Watch the fight against Williams, possibly one of the greatest performances by a heavyweight ever.

Ali had his faults as a boxer and made many mistakes and wasn't as technically brilliant as many suggest, but nonetheless he was one of the greatest fighters ever, even taking into account those 2 suspicous fights against liston. Maybe they were fixed and Liston could have beaten him then, but only a year after their second fight when he destroyed Williams Ali had grown from a boy into a man and was a much much better fighter and IMO would of beat Liston legitimally.

As good as Liston was and I think he was a very underated fighter he never had the stamina to fight at the pace Ali did in his epic fights with Frazier.

To say the fights were fixed I can handle, but to criticize Ali the way you have is just not on.

I think Liston just realised he was fighting a man who had the better of him and he stayed down.

if he thought that going in and bet against himself, it was fixed. the question is whether others were in on it.

could be as simple as liston bet against himself and told everyone he was gonna try and win. even if only one man makes out, it's still fixed.

Teddy, is that you?

Liston, while making a vigorous effort was clearly beaten up in the first fight. He even went as far as to cheat by putting liniment on his gloves in the 5th (?) round. When he couldn't get Ali out of there he soon quit in his corner citing a shoulder injury. Think what you will, but that about the strangest set of circumstances I've ever heard of for a fixed fight. To top that off, years later, long after Liston and Frankie Carbo and Blinky Palermo were gone, Listons own corner man said the fight was on the level and that Sonny just wasnt prepared for the 22 year old phenom after only fightingt a total of 3 rounds in 3 years. There was no reason for him to lie or fear reprisals from anyone. Why say the fights were on the level if they weren't?

As far as the second fight. Where was the fix? Anybody can plainly see Listons whole body shiver from a punch he moved into and never saw coming. Now I can't prove this any more than anyone can prove either of these fights were fixed, but I think Liston was looking for a reason to lay down in that fight. I think he knew he couldn't win and just wanted out. Either way, when he did get up he didn't seem to be on queer street, but he had clearly been hurt. Answer me this though.....how many fights have been fixed by the referee botching the count and then declaring a winner based on the word of a magazine editor?

Liston was a shady character and a great fighter at his best. But he was long past that versus Ali in the first and second fight. People are entitled to believe what they want, but there is a logical answer for every conspiracy theory about the Liston-Ali fights if you keep an open mind. Could the fights have somehow been fixed in the Hollywood fashion the ended? Sure. But my common sense and the facts tell me otherwise.

The first fight was certainly not fixed. Liston went in there and tried to knock Ali out quickly, having seen Sonny Banks and little Henry Cooper knock him down.

He landed some of his best left hooks which did hurt Ali and really went for the KO in the 5th round when Ali couldn't see.

The shoulder injury was proven to be real (unless you're into conspiracy theories), although I'm sure Liston would've continued if it wasn't Ali he was fighting, he had been dominated in the 6th round.

Nothing can be said for sure about the second Liston-Ali fight. I do believe it was a combination of things, Walcott's refereeing, Ali's showboating and Liston not wanting to continue.

If you believe both fights were fixed then Liston sure did a better job at acting in the first fight. Ali did great too absorbing some huge lefts and rights that would've put Patterson on his back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOHiNUVPuHA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cILaQkF_Id8
Liston - Ali I

Watch the Liston left hook at 7:45 in the first part, do you think that wasn't thrown with bad intentions?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzWynvBLJ4I
Liston - Ali II

I think the second fight may have been fixed, but im note to sure about the first fight. Liston tried to win that and was broken down physically and metaly.

I voted yes because the second was a fix no way sonny wanted to get the head boxed off him by a man near his weight & taller & the suggestion the the first fight was a fix was stupid i have heard it before that there its possible lately it was a fix no way Ali showed sonny how to really box

I think the second fight may have been fixed, but im note to sure about the first fight. Liston tried to win that and was broken down physically and metaly.

The second fight certainly LOOKS more shady than the first, but where is the fix? Any man can get dropped by a punch they don't see coming. Liston was hurt, but not out. Had Ali gone to the nuetral corner maybe this debate never happens. If Walcott had assumed contol as the referee, maybe this debate never happens. But these thing didn't happen and it becomes ammunition for the conspiricy theorists to use. I see plenty of evidence of a poorly handled fight, yet virtually none of a fix. Jmo.

Now that I've read the first post, there are a lot of inaccuracies and exaggerations in there.

Sonny Liston destroyed all of the top-ranked heavyweights of his day (except for the ones who refused to fight him), including Zora Folley, Eddie Machen and Cleveland Williams.

Liston hardly 'destroyed' Eddie Machen who went the distance with Sonny (Liston lost 3 points for low blows). Was this fight fixed?

Nobody ever knocked Sonny Liston down with one punch - except Muhammad Ali...

I guess Liston threw this fight as well.

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Mac Foster famously knocked out Liston in sparring. He wasn't invincible.

Ali clearly hurt Liston several times during the first fight, Williams landed some bombs too that had Liston on the defensive.

Henry Cooper knocked Ali down (and almost out) with one punch. Chuck Wepner knocked Ali down with one punch. Joe Frazier knocked Ali down with one punch. Sonny Banks knocked Ali down with one punch.

You should've left the Chuck Wepner knockdown out. What a joke.

Ali had one of the best chin's in boxing history, taking punches from Foreman, Shavers, Liston and Frazier.

No normal man could take the punishment he took from Shavers at around 6 minutes.
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Liston routinely knocked fighters' senseless with his JAB (he also knocked more than a few heavyweights' TEETH out with that same left jab). And his right hand was absolutely fearsome. Sonny could knock you out with either hand.

But, mysteriously, when he fought Ali the first time, he threw a total of maybe FIVE right hands during the entire fight. And most of those right hands were fly-swatter punches.

Liston tried to land his right several times but couldn't catch Ali.

As a smart boxer he knew that Ali was vulnerable to the left hook and landed many of them, some of which hurt Ali.

Liston fought all kinds of boxers but never a mover like Ali.

The second fight certainly LOOKS more shady than the first, but where is the fix? Any man can get dropped by a punch they don't see coming. Liston was hurt, but not out. Had Ali gone to the nuetral corner maybe this debate never happens. If Walcott had assumed contol as the referee, maybe this debate never happens. But these thing didn't happen and it becomes ammunition for the conspiricy theorists to use. I see plenty of evidence of a poorly handled fight, yet virtually none of a fix. Jmo.

Yeh they are great points, im not fully convinced that it was fixed. But i can see how people argue that it was. I dont accept it was fixed but do not fully dismiss the possibility.

I'm not so sure about the first fight, but my thoughts on the second fight are that when Liston got knocked down, Ali did not leave to the neutral corner where Walcotts amateurish refereeing on starting a ten count were halted. As Liston was stumbling to his feet, Nat Fleischer informed Mr Walcott that Liston had been on the deck for about 17 seconds. This was incorrect, as Ali did not leave to the corner so no count could be started (made famous by the Tunney/Dempsey 'long count' debacle). The fight was stopped because of this, but wether Ali's punch really affected Liston is debatable as the scenes evolving in the ring and out of it with Liston after the punch are suspicious.

My thoughts are the second fight was a fix. Not the first.

Now that I've read the first post, there are a lot of inaccuracies and exaggerations in there.



Liston hardly 'destroyed' Eddie Machen who went the distance with Sonny (Liston lost 3 points for low blows). Was this fight fixed?



I guess Liston threw this fight as well.

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Mac Foster famously knocked out Liston in sparring. He wasn't invincible.

Ali clearly hurt Liston several times during the first fight, Williams landed some bombs too that had Liston on the defensive.



You should've left the Chuck Wepner knockdown out. What a joke.

Ali had one of the best chin's in boxing history, taking punches from Foreman, Shavers, Liston and Frazier.

No normal man could take the punishment he took from Shavers at around 6 minutes.
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Liston tried to land his right several times but couldn't catch Ali.

As a smart boxer he knew that Ali was vulnerable to the left hook and landed many of them, some of which hurt Ali.

Liston fought all kinds of boxers but never a mover like Ali.

The Manchine.....cutting down arguments like a lumberjack cuts down trees!!

Yeh they are great points, im not fully convinced that it was fixed. But i can see how people argue that it was. I dont accept it was fixed but do not fully dismiss the possibility.

This I can understand and respect because there are some unanwered questions, yet still no concrete proof of the fix being in.

The Manchine.....cutting down arguments like a lumberjack cuts down trees!!

I did not even want to go into the rumours about Liston KO'ing six policemen and all that.

I don't understand why it is so hard to believe that a man likely in his mid/late 30's (who had only fought a couple of rounds in the last few years) was not able to catch a quick 20 year old who went on to become one of the greatest, if not THE greatest heavyweight of all time.

Most of Liston's opponents stood in front of him and Sonny ate them up. The ones who ran were the ones who had minor success.

Ali could move better than anyone and Liston was not in the condition to chase him for 15 rounds.

I'm not so sure about the first fight, but my thoughts on the second fight are that when Liston got knocked down, Ali did not leave to the neutral corner where Walcotts amateurish refereeing on starting a ten count were halted. As Liston was stumbling to his feet, Nat Fleischer informed Mr Walcott that Liston had been on the deck for about 17 seconds. This was incorrect, as Ali did not leave to the corner so no count could be started (made famous by the Tunney/Dempsey 'long count' debacle). The fight was stopped because of this, but wether Ali's punch really affected Liston is debatable as the scenes evolving in the ring and out of it with Liston after the punch are suspicious.

My thoughts are the second fight was a fix. Not the first.

I still don't see evidence of a fix, my friend. Just a poorly maneaged fight by the referee. There is no doubt the punch landed and that Sonny was moving into it and was legitimetly dropped. The seen gets somewhat murkier with the chaos the ensues after the knockdown. But I still don't see where sonny took a dive. He was not counted out. He did get up and start fighting again. The problem was Joe walcott, and that is where the blame should lay. ?That said, I don't think Sonny stood aq chance even if the fight were allowed to continue. He was psychologicly whipped and really didn't want to be fighting Ali in my opinion.

I did not even want to go into the rumours about Liston KO'ing six policemen and all that.

I don't understand why it is so hard to believe that a man likely in his mid/late 30's (who had only fought a couple of rounds in the last few years) was not able to catch a quick 20 year old who went on to become one of the greatest, if not THE greatest heavyweight of all time.

Most of Liston's opponents stood in front of him and Sonny ate them up. The ones who ran were the ones who had minor success.

Ali could move better than anyone and Liston was not in the condition to chase him for 15 rounds.

Add all this up with the fact that Ali wouldn't be intimidated by Liston and the obvious becomes even more crystal clear if you have an open mind.

[/B]

This I can understand and respect because there are some unanwered questions, yet still no concrete proof of the fix being in.
The first fight was not a fix because in 2 previous fights Liston was finding the fight hard so he used the eye irritation in both fights it done the trick & so in the first with Ali he tried it again when the well was dry but Angelo Dundee told him to run for round 5 & Ali licked him when recovered.
Fight 2 is 1 we will never no but why did Ali shout at Liston get up you bum nobody will believe this & lets not forget the Mob & the Nation Of Islam were controlling both fighter's

Who knows but 1 thing can't be over looked is Liston got caught & would never have seen it coming but the only thing that can leave douth is Liston rolling a round on the ground it was dramatic to say the least

The first fight was not a fix because in 2 previous fights Liston was finding the fight hard so he used the eye irritation in both fights it done the trick & so in the first with Ali he tried it again when the well was dry but Angelo Dundee told him to run for round 5 & Ali licked him when recovered.
Fight 2 is 1 we will never no but why did Ali shout at Liston get up you bum nobody will believe this & lets not forget the Mob & the Nation Of Islam were controlling both fighter's

Ali was shouting at him because muchof the public still percieved the first fight as a fluke and thought Liston invincible. as far as who controlled who.....It wouldn't have been in Carbo orb Palermo's best interest to put Sonny in the tank. There is an old saying that goes "you can sheer a sheep over and over, but you can oly skin it once" or something to that effect. what it means is with Liston they controlled the biggest prize in sports and could continually make money from him because of it. Not to mention I find it very difficult to believe two wise guys would willingly give up there bead and butter to the black muslims which they would hold no control or influence over.

As far as Ali being controlled...I don't believe that for a minute. Never was there a person who was more their own man than Muhammed Ali. No way bhe takes part in a fixed fight and has any klnowledge of it.

Who knows but 1 thing can't be over looked is Liston got caught & would never have seen it coming but the only thing that can leave douth is Liston rolling a round on the ground it was dramatic to say the least

I agree it was dramatic. ?But was it any more dramatic than Berbick floundering around the ring after being hit by Tyson? Who's to say how one fighter is going to react to being dropped by another.

I agree it was dramatic. ?But was it any more dramatic than Berbick floundering around the ring after being hit by Tyson? Who's to say how one fighter is going to react to being dropped by another.

Good point about Berbick & Liston said in his dressing room after the fight in an inteerview he gave that he could have got up only for ali standing over him

















































& Jersey Joe's handling of it & Nat should haven't have told Walcott that liston was down for 12 or 17 seconds which ever it was aeter all Walcott was only trying to make a few dollars.

Ive an open mind on it Angelo Dundee said it was a simple move he my caught with a perfect right & the way ali turn his punches they must hurt ive seen the recreated on a doc called Closest Thing To Death it caught him on the timple & hit him flush all down his jaw enough to catch him & lets not forget the speed of the shot & liston never saw it coming.

Yes, we've heard all the stories. Yes, we all know the surrounding evidence prior to the fight.

I would have to say that the 1st fight MAY have been fixed. The 2nd fight was definately fixed.

But all i have to say is one thing: Sonny Liston was owned by the Mob. And during the 60's the Mafia was at its highest power. For Sonny Liston to take a dive, think about the pay out.

Yes, we've heard all the stories. Yes, we all know the surrounding evidence prior to the fight.

I would have to say that the 1st fight MAY have been fixed. The 2nd fight was definately fixed.

But all i have to say is one thing: Sonny Liston was owned by the Mob. And during the 60's the Mafia was at its highest power. For Sonny Liston to take a dive, think about the pay out.

I hear you talking and making assumptions, but I don't see any proof. Do you have ANYTHING to offer us besides conjecture?

I hear you talking and making assumptions, but I don't see any proof. Do you have ANYTHING to offer us besides conjecture?
Point taken i made that point early that mob had a lot to gain out of it & with likes of Frank Carbo & Blinky Palermo a round controlling boxing a long with the IBC.

i have listen to sports writers say that the first fight was a fix it would have been a double bet with an Ali win & Liston to get ko'd in round 7 vast amounts of money to be made.

I haven't heard Burt Sugar's take on it do you know what he had to say?

Point taken i made that point early that mob had a lot to gain out of it & with likes of Frank Carbo & Blinky Palermo a round controlling boxing a long with the IBC.

i have listen to sports writers say that the first fight was a fix it would have been a double bet with an Ali win & Liston to get ko'd in round 7 vast amounts of money to be made.

I haven't heard Burt Sugar's take on it do you know what he had to say?

I have heard Sugar speak about this before on ESPN's "Ringside" series, but I'd be lying if I said I remembered what he said.

The truth is we'll probably never know. As for the second Ali - Liston fight you watch it carefully. Liston had just badly missed with a left on was off balance and the punch pretty much PUSHED him over. After that Ali was standing over Liston screaming and gesticulating and wouldn't go to the neutral corner. No fighter is going to get up under those circumstances as it would leave him dangerously vulnerable if he tried. Once Ali finally went to the neutral corner Walcott began his count and Liston got up as per the refs count and the fight continued. THEN Nat Fleischer stuck his nose in where it didn't belong and told Walcott that Liston had been down for longer than 10 seconds and was therefore KOed. The biggest problem I have with that is a fighter is KOed when the ref counts 10 NOT when 10 seconds elapse. The count shouldn't rightly start UNTIL the fighter scoring the knockdown goes to the neutral corner. If he wants to jump around the ring and act the clown giving his downed opponent extra time that's HIS business; but he should NOT profit from his own malfeasence.

Poet

the fact that the thread started is an ali hater is total unfair.....

people dont understand how much power was in the ''phantom punch''..... if you look it up on youtube you will see, just by looking at his chest when ali throws the punch, how much power is behind it. When he throws the punch his chest tenses up like crazy which is proof that he put so much power behind it! your chest cannot tense up like that without a lot of power.

another thing is people say the second fight was definitely fixed, but if it was would people not make it more believeable by making liston 'dive' in the later rounds. i mean the first fight he didnt even get knocked out or really close to it, so why would they make liston dive in the first round?

Sonny Liston was the baddest fighter in the history of Planet Earth - inside or outside the ring.

Sonny Liston's fists were a massive 14 inches around (or 15 inches, depending on whom you ask), and Sonny's wing span was a ridiculous 84 inches - the greatest wingspan (reach) of any heavyweight champion in boxing history, with the exception of Primo Carnera.

Sonny Liston destroyed all of the top-ranked heavyweights of his day (except for the ones who refused to fight him), including Zora Folley, Eddie Machen and Cleveland Williams.

(Muhammad Ali's handlers, most notably Angeo Dundee, continually ducked Folley, Machen, and, most especially, the fearsome Cleveland Williams, while Ali was on the way up. During their repeated verbal sparring sessions, which occurred over a period of many months, prior to their first fight, Sonny Liston often told Ali to "go fight Cleveland Williams, and then get back to me." Ali's handlers were not stupid - they knew Williams would demolish Ali, whom Liston knocked out twice in two of the most vicious brawls in heavyweight boxing history.)

Henry Cooper, the former British Heavyweight Champion, flat-out refused to fight Sonny Liston - under any circumstances. Cooper knocked Ali down in their first fight with a thunderous left hook (Ali would have been knocked out if the bell hadn't saved him), and Cooper had been quoted as saying, on more than one occasion, "If Mr. Liston approached me on the street, I would walk the other way."

Ingemar Johanssen, who was the reigning heavyweight champion at the time, when Liston was busy cleaning out the division in the early 1960's, constantly ducked Sonny Liston...Liston called him out on several occasions in front of the national media, but the silence from Johanssen was deafening. Johanssen had won the title by knocking out the former champion, Floyd Patterson.

During a 1987 interview, Floyd Patterson said he was convinced Liston threw both fights to Ali. According to Patterson, Ali's cut man for the first fight had contacted all of his friends and relatives before the fight and told them that it was fixed, and that they should bet everything they had on Ali (this was also mentioned in a casino sports betting paper in 1991, as well).

Liston's handlers and cornermen got wind of the scheme and put their money down on the "sure thing", and everybody cleaned up - due to the 7-1 odds against Ali at the time of the first fight. In the second fight, Liston was STILL the favorite, the odds were 7-5 in Liston's favor - and all the wise guys cleaned up yet again.

Six months after supposedly knocking out Liston with a six-inch right hand, Ali could not finish off a badly injured Patterson (who foolishly went into the fight with a very bad back).


Sonny Liston absolutely mauled Floyd Patterson, knocking him out in the first round - TWICE.

Sonny Liston did time in prisons and prison camps. He beat the hell out of both inmates and guards, while incarcerated. Liston was constantly harassed by the Feds (J. Edgar Hoover had Liston on his "suspicious persons" list), the police and the Mob. He was followed by policemen almost everywhere he went. Liston once got into a brawl with six policeman who proceeded to beat Liston over the head with billy clubs - yet Liston survived the clubbing, and took all six of the policemen OUT. And yet...Ali's ridiculous "phantom punch" knocked out Liston? Please...as P.T. Barnum once said, "There's a sucker born every minute."

Both fights with Ali were fixed, and this is a fact, not speculation - and people who were close to both Liston and Ali have admitted as much over the years. Liston's bodyguard at the time of the first Ali fight, asked Sonny if he should bet more money than he already had on Liston to win. Sonny told him that boxing was funny and you never knew who would actually come out on top in a heavyweight championship fight. After Liston failed to come out of his corner for the 7th round during the first Ali fight, Liston's bodyguard knew what was up. He asked Liston later, why he hadn't bothered to inform him that the fight had been fixed. to which Liston said, "With your big mouth, we would have both ended up in the river wearing concrete shoes...I just did what I was told."

Watch Sonny Liston's fights. Pay close attention to all the fights you can lay your hands on before the Ali (Clay) fights. Liston routinely knocked fighters' senseless with his JAB (he also knocked more than a few heavyweights' TEETH out with that same left jab). And his right hand was absolutely fearsome. Sonny could knock you out with either hand.

But, mysteriously, when he fought Ali the first time, he threw a total of maybe FIVE right hands during the entire fight. And most of those right hands were fly-swatter punches. If you watch all of his other fights leading up to the first Ali fight, you will notice that he set boxers up with his left, and when he went for the kill, he used lefts and rights in combination, especially a powerful straight right, or right hook to the head. (Or a right uppercut, he had a ferocious right uppercut.) He threw a good number of right hands in every single fight he ever fought - except for the Ali fights.

The eyes don't lie. Watch the fights.

There exists reams and reams of evidence that overwhelmingly proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that Sonny Liston threw both fights with Ali. (Read "The Devil and Sonny Liston," by author Nick Tosches, for starters.)

And consider this -

Ever watch Ali's fight with Doug Jones? This fight took place about 11 months before Ali's first fight with Liston. Doug Jones was a journeyman light heavyweight (14.5 pounds lighter than Ali during the time of their fight at Madison Square Garden on March 13, 1963)...Ali's handlers wouldn't let Muhammad fight Cleveland Williams or Zora Folley or Eddie Machen, or ANY of the top contenders of the day, so Ali agreed to fight Doug Jones, as one of his two tune-ups for the first fixed fight with Liston.

Jones was the agressor duing the entire fight with Ali, and he came forward incessantly with great success - despite the great disparity in their weights (and the alleged disparity in their boxing prowess). Ali won a unanimous decision in this fight, and many observers thought that THIS fight was fixed, and that Jones had clearly won, despite Ali's strong showing in the last two rounds of this 10-round fight. You can watch this fight on DVD, or online...ESPN sometimes shows it on their "ESPN Classics" channel. Listen to the boos and watch the reaction of the Madison Square Garden crowd after you watch it...I watched this fight and I thought that it was, in the very least, a draw...Jones won at least five of the first seven rounds, and if I had to pick a winner on the night in question, it would have been Jones...Doug Jones stunned Ali in the first round with a good shot to the head.

Watch the fight. Then tell me that Ali is "The Greatest"...

Henry Cooper knocked Ali down (and almost out) with one punch. Chuck Wepner knocked Ali down with one punch. Joe Frazier knocked Ali down with one punch. Sonny Banks knocked Ali down with one punch.

Nobody ever knocked Sonny Liston down with one punch - except Muhammad Ali...

Contary to popular opinion, Muhammad Ali was one of the most overrated fighters in history.

And he got the title handed to him via a total setup.

Think about this - if the Liston/Ali fights were fixed (which they were), how many other Ali fights were fixed? Tell me that a boxer who gets knocked down by Henry Cooper is one of the greatest fighters in history? Tell me that a boxer who loses a fight to Doug Jones (a journeyman light heavyweight), is one of the greatest fighters in history? How many more of Ali's fights were fixed. Watch the movie "Raging Bull" and ponder this important question...

Boxing's murky past is checkered with countless fixed fights, various and sundry Mob goings-on, and sordid, shady dealings behind closed doors. It's a fact of life, and anybody on the inside will tell you this. The same holds true for ALL professional sports, but that is not the subject of this post.

Sonny Liston was the most fearsome (and accomplished) heavyweight champion in history. And in my humble but informed opinion, he would have knocked out Jack Johnson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Mike Tyson and yes, even Rocky Marciano. (During a made-for-TV boxing special back in the mid-1980's, an in-his-prime, Heavyweight Champion Mike Tyson admitted that he would have been afraid of fighting only one man in heavyweight boxing history - Sonny Liston.)

Nobody could stand up to Sonny Liston - unless the outcome had already been predetermined.

***Interesting sidenote - Much has been made over the years of Liston's alleged (and absolutely irrefutable) Mob connections...Sonny Liston won the last fight of his career, in June of 1970 against Chuck Wepner...and many people have alleged over the years that Liston was supposed to take a dive in the Wepner fight, but he refused...six months after the Wepner fight, Liston turns up dead - the result of an alleged "heroin overdose," which is a circumstance that seems very unlikely, in the least, given the fact that it was common knowledge among anyone who ever knew him, that Sonny Liston, the baddest fighter in the history of Planet Earth, was deathly afraid of only one thing - needles.

very useful informaton, thanks!!!! i was wondering, could you tell us how big was sonny's wang? what was the circumference of his left nut!!! do tell! do tell! let us no after you recover his balls from your mouth.

No they were not. If you watch the second fight the replay's clearly show that punch that lands and it's brutal.

The first fight was pretty close by the way until Liston quit.

The only man who knows for sure what was really going on in those two fights is no longer with us, so the truth will probably never be known. All the rest of us can do is speculate

Liston lasted the distance after breaking his jaw against Marty Marshall, took dozens of clean shots from the hard-hitting Cleveland Williams without flinching, and didn't crumble when he had to track down the elusive Eddie Machen. Yet against Ali he retires on his stool with the fight dead even on the cards. Doesn't look right to me.

The rematch was an all round joke. Even if you accept the anchor punch as genuine, there is still the farce of Ali hysterical and refusing to go to a neutral corner, Liston not getting a count, the inexperienced Walcott taking instructions from people outside the ring, and the fight finally stopped with both men trading punches. At the very least, it should have been ruled a no contest.

hmm yeah like i said i cant rule out a fix in the second fight but the first one was legit

ali was a great fighter still though, best HW of all time

I just can't see how that first fight was a fix. There is no evidence. All I saw was a fast, athletic 22 year old outmoving and outboxing a slower, unprepared older guy. Liston took him light and didn't prepare for 15 rounds. When Clay was blinded Liston tried his best to knock him out. You can see how desperate he is to get Clay out of there. When it didn't work he quit rather than go on taking more rounds of punishment.

Why would the mob fix the first fight for Liston to lose? If the mob controlled Liston and the championship, why would they give it up and hand it over to Clay who wasn't involved with the mob, but was with the unpopular black muslims? Makes no sense.

its a surprise if i told you no one would come Muhammad Ali.

the shot that ko'd liston was clocked at 4 1-100ths of a second

its a surprise if i told you no one would come Muhammad Ali.

the shot that ko'd liston was clocked at 4 1-100ths of a second

Yeah the punch definatly landed.

I really don't think they were, the first fight was definitely not IMO, the second fight, while being suspicious, was because of Walcott's bad refereeing more than anything shady involving the mob or the Nation of Islam IMO.

According to his wife, a few seconds into the 2nd meeting Sonny realized he couldn't beat his opponent and just took an easy way out. Ali and Liston were supposed to clash in the autumn of '64, reportedly Liston trained very hard at that moment. But Ali had to visit the hospital (forgotten why), and the fight was postponed. Receiving the news, it seems like Sonny lost some of his spirit. Is Sonny the only world heavyweight champ who wasn't honored by a parade in his home town. In a BBC documentary of his life, they revealed he was devasted when no one, not even reporters, met up to welcome him as he arrived at the airport after the 1st Patterson demolition. Poor guy!

Also, Sonny ran away from home at the age of 13 'cause he took such terrible beatings from his father. From then on, he was on his own. Having a background like that, I don't think you care much of which people you get mixed up with. If you haven't been paid respect as a human being before, you choose the first one who does.

According to his wife, a few seconds into the 2nd meeting Sonny realized he couldn't beat his opponent and just took an easy way out. Ali and Liston were supposed to clash in the autumn of '64, reportedly Liston trained very hard at that moment. But Ali had to visit the hospital (forgotten why), and the fight was postponed. Receiving the news, it seems like Sonny lost some of his spirit. Is Sonny the only world heavyweight champ who wasn't honored by a parade in his home town. In a BBC documentary of his life, they revealed he was devasted when no one, not even reporters, met up to welcome him as he arrived at the airport after the 1st Patterson demolition. Poor guy!

I believe it was an operation to sort out a hernia.

I believe it was an operation to sort out a hernia. Thanks for info.

The truth is we'll probably never know. As for the second Ali - Liston fight you watch it carefully. Liston had just badly missed with a left on was off balance and the punch pretty much PUSHED him over. After that Ali was standing over Liston screaming and gesticulating and wouldn't go to the neutral corner. No fighter is going to get up under those circumstances as it would leave him dangerously vulnerable if he tried. Once Ali finally went to the neutral corner Walcott began his count and Liston got up as per the refs count and the fight continued. THEN Nat Fleischer stuck his nose in where it didn't belong and told Walcott that Liston had been down for longer than 10 seconds and was therefore KOed. The biggest problem I have with that is a fighter is KOed when the ref counts 10 NOT when 10 seconds elapse. The count shouldn't rightly start UNTIL the fighter scoring the knockdown goes to the neutral corner. If he wants to jump around the ring and act the clown giving his downed opponent extra time that's HIS business; but he should NOT profit from his own malfeasence.

Poet

That’s how I have always seen it good post, the fight should have continued it was not a fix just poor referring, and the first fight was close imo before Liston hurt his arm. People love a good conspiracy theory but to be honest most of the time they are just a load of rubbish.

According to his wife, a few seconds into the 2nd meeting Sonny realized he couldn't beat his opponent and just took an easy way out. Ali and Liston were supposed to clash in the autumn of '64, reportedly Liston trained very hard at that moment. But Ali had to visit the hospital (forgotten why), and the fight was postponed. Receiving the news, it seems like Sonny lost some of his spirit. Is Sonny the only world heavyweight champ who wasn't honored by a parade in his home town. In a BBC documentary of his life, they revealed he was devasted when no one, not even reporters, met up to welcome him as he arrived at the airport after the 1st Patterson demolition. Poor guy!

On top of that Sonny was a sensitive person to begin with and he was hurt by the lack of reception. Here he had just won the Heavyweight championship and no one gave a ****. By all accounts once Sonny got to know you he was a big softy at heart; but he didn't trust strangers and he put up his defenses when around them. He was also undisposed to make nice with people he believed had hurt him in some way. Can you blame him? Most of us have been conditioned to put on a nice public face even around people we despise; Sonny wasn't and I would guess most of US would secretly like to show how we really feel instead of slapping on the mask.

Sonny is a fighter that I've long been a fan of. In his prime he was truly a remarkable fighter. Was he Mob connected? Yes. So was practically every other major fighter from that era. Lets face it: From the 1920s to the early 1960s organized crime controlled boxing. During that period if you wanted a title shot you had to have dealings with the Mob on some level, even if it was just greasing a few palms to get a shot at the Champ. It's the way it was. The Unions were a good case in point. Do you know who controlled the labor unions back then? Take a wild guess! That meant every union member who payed his local dues was dealing with the Mob.

In the case of Ali I can say I'm a fan of his as a fighter: He was breathtaking to watch! After I read the details of what he did to Joe Frazier I wasn't so much a fan of him as a person anymore. I think he was the greatest Heavyweight who ever lived, and watching his fights only reinforces that belief; but I refuse to regard him as some sort of modern-day saint. He isn't. His treatment of Frazier was abominable. It's one thing to hype a fight and sell tickets; it's quite another to "Tom" someone who in no way deserved it then turn around and use stereotypes of him that could have come from a Klansman. Yeah, I once laughed at Ali's antics; but when I stopped to think about what was actually being said I concluded that it just wasn't right. Frazier certainly deserved better than that and so did every other fighter Ali fought.

Poet

I just can't see how that first fight was a fix. There is no evidence. All I saw was a fast, athletic 22 year old outmoving and outboxing a slower, unprepared older guy. Liston took him light and didn't prepare for 15 rounds. When Clay was blinded Liston tried his best to knock him out. You can see how desperate he is to get Clay out of there. When it didn't work he quit rather than go on taking more rounds of punishment.

Why would the mob fix the first fight for Liston to lose? If the mob controlled Liston and the championship, why would they give it up and hand it over to Clay who wasn't involved with the mob, but was with the unpopular black muslims? Makes no sense.

That sums it up perfectly and should end this ridiculious thread that had so many holes and lies in it that I would be here all day posting a response to it.

On top of that Sonny was a sensitive person to begin with and he was hurt by the lack of reception. Here he had just won the Heavyweight championship and no one gave a ****. By all accounts once Sonny got to know you he was a big softy at heart; but he didn't trust strangers and he put up his defenses when around them. He was also undisposed to make nice with people he believed had hurt him in some way. Can you blame him? Most of us have been conditioned to put on a nice public face even around people we despise; Sonny wasn't and I would guess most of US would secretly like to show how we really feel instead of slapping on the mask.

Sonny is a fighter that I've long been a fan of. In his prime he was truly a remarkable fighter. Was he Mob connected? Yes. So was practically every other major fighter from that era. Lets face it: From the 1920s to the early 1960s organized crime controlled boxing. During that period if you wanted a title shot you had to have dealings with the Mob on some level, even if it was just greasing a few palms to get a shot at the Champ. It's the way it was. The Unions were a good case in point. Do you know who controlled the labor unions back then? Take a wild guess! That meant every union member who payed his local dues was dealing with the Mob.

In the case of Ali I can say I'm a fan of his as a fighter: He was breathtaking to watch! After I read the details of what he did to Joe Frazier I wasn't so much a fan of him as a person anymore. I think he was the greatest Heavyweight who ever lived, and watching his fights only reinforces that belief; but I refuse to regard him as some sort of modern-day saint. He isn't. His treatment of Frazier was abominable. It's one thing to hype a fight and sell tickets; it's quite another to "Tom" someone who in no way deserved it then turn around and use stereotypes of him that could have come from a Klansman. Yeah, I once laughed at Ali's antics; but when I stopped to think about what was actually being said I concluded that it just wasn't right. Frazier certainly deserved better than that and so did every other fighter Ali fought.

Poet


Though I admire Ali very much, your thoughts have crossed my mind too (several times). About Sonny being a softy, a sensitive person; lots of sources say he felt most comfortable in the presence of children. Could anyone, man or woman, who enjoys the company of truthful kids, be evil in their hearts. I doubt it.

Sonny was great but Ali was greater. if it was fixed then they would have staged a KO, not have him quit liek a bum! the second fight was just terrible refereeing and you can tell from the way Walcott ran arouind like a headless chicken that he just ****ed up bigtime.

[/U][/B]

That sums it up perfectly and should end this ridiculious thread that had so many holes and lies in it that I would be here all day posting a response to it.

Was there any suspicious betting and shifting of odds on Clay,before the first or second fights?

I don't think it a stretch that Ali's associates in the Nation of Islam,may have "asked" Liston,not to try too hard for the win in the second fight.The Heavyweight Championship of the World was the richest prize in sport and would have given massive international exposure to the NOI.

Everyone knows the Mafia's capacity for violence,but we have to remember that Malcolm X was assassinated because,he had left the NOI and converted to Orthodox Islam.By proselytising his faith he threatened the powerbase of the leader of the NOI , Louis Farrakhan.


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/packageart/malcolmx/xmorgue1.gif
What happens to those who reject the Final Word of God,as preached by the Right Honorable Louis Farrakhan,in favour of the obsolete orthodoxies of Sunni Islam....

Was there any suspicious betting and shifting of odds on Clay,before the first or second fights?

I don't think it a stretch that Ali's associates in the Nation of Islam,may have "asked" Liston,not to try too hard for the win in the second fight.The Heavyweight Championship of the World was the richest prize in sport and would have given massive international exposure to the NOI.

Everyone knows the Mafia's capacity for violence,but we have to remember that Malcolm X was assassinated because,he had left the NOI and converted to Orthodox Islam.By proselytising his faith he threatened the powerbase of the leader of the NOI , Louis Farrakhan.


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/packageart/malcolmx/xmorgue1.gif
What happens to those who reject the Final Word of God,as preached by the Right Honorable Louis Farrakhan,in favour of the obsolete orthodoxies of Sunni Islam....

Actually Elijah Muhammad was the of NOI at the time, Louis Farrakhan was his
second at the time.

Poet

Actually Elijah Muhammad was the of NOI at the time, Louis Farrakhan was his
second at the time.

Poet

LOL.Before reading your post,I realised and winced at my error .
Anyway...well done for pointing it out.:boxing:

I never really got the whole thing of Liston being scared by the NOI. Liston was a scary guy himself and had lead a life full of voilence and danger. The fact that he had the mob in his corner as well makes me wonder why people think he would be intimidated by a few threats (if ever he was seriously threatened)

Ali is and always will be the greatest boxer in the history of the sport

Terrific thread!!
I, like the 1st poster and others, have always been convinced that Liston surely "took a dive" in the 2nd fight. Yes he was "mobbed up", but he was probably one of the most fearsome heavyweights and very underrated.

In the 1st fight, Liston was clearly trying to win the fight. He was throwing left hooks in the early rounds, that if connected, would have ripped Ali's head off. Ali beat him with his speed, style and perhaps Liston mentally did a "no mas" on the stool and that was that.
If a fight is going to be fixed, the participant won't usually just not come out for the round..it would appear too obvious. Too, Liston easily could have hurt his shoulder missing Ali the way he did. One expends much more energy and pulls muscle and joint when missing a strong punch, then when connecting. And Liston missed with a lot a heavy shots.

The 2nd fight's "mystery punch", I've watched dozens of times. Ali is moving backward, his feet are barely set, and the right, is merely a quick, light slapping punch.
Liston goes down as if he was hit with a "stunning bomb"; rolls over on the canvas as if barely conscious..not even a good acting job. I've hit myself harder then that ;>)

Just MHO on this excellent thread.

teddy, is that you?

Liston, while making a vigorous effort was clearly beaten up in the first fight. He even went as far as to cheat by putting liniment on his gloves in the 5th (?) round. When he couldn't get ali out of there he soon quit in his corner citing a shoulder injury. Think what you will, but that about the strangest set of circumstances i've ever heard of for a fixed fight. To top that off, years later, long after liston and frankie carbo and blinky palermo were gone, listons own corner man said the fight was on the level and that sonny just wasnt prepared for the 22 year old phenom after only fightingt a total of 3 rounds in 3 years. There was no reason for him to lie or fear reprisals from anyone. Why say the fights were on the level if they weren't?

As far as the second fight. Where was the fix? Anybody can plainly see listons whole body shiver from a punch he moved into and never saw coming. Now i can't prove this any more than anyone can prove either of these fights were fixed, but i think liston was looking for a reason to lay down in that fight. I think he knew he couldn't win and just wanted out. Either way, when he did get up he didn't seem to be on queer street, but he had clearly been hurt. Answer me this though.....how many fights have been fixed by the referee botching the count and then declaring a winner based on the word of a magazine editor?

Liston was a shady character and a great fighter at his best. But he was long past that versus ali in the first and second fight. People are entitled to believe what they want, but there is a logical answer for every conspiracy theory about the liston-ali fights if you keep an open mind. Could the fights have somehow been fixed in the hollywood fashion the ended? Sure. But my common sense and the facts tell me otherwise.

jab you always come up with great logic and reasoning in your responses. Ali dominated liston in the first fight and knocked him out in the 2nd. Also, remember years later leotis martin put sonny to sleep as howard cosell screamed, "the career of sonny liston is over!!!!!!!!!!!!" next someone is going to claim tyson threw his fight with douglas and both fights with holyfield. Liston was a great fighter, he was not the greatest.

Teddy, is that you?

Liston, while making a vigorous effort was clearly beaten up in the first fight. He even went as far as to cheat by putting liniment on his gloves in the 5th (?) round. When he couldn't get Ali out of there he soon quit in his corner citing a shoulder injury. Think what you will, but that about the strangest set of circumstances I've ever heard of for a fixed fight. To top that off, years later, long after Liston and Frankie Carbo and Blinky Palermo were gone, Listons own corner man said the fight was on the level and that Sonny just wasnt prepared for the 22 year old phenom after only fightingt a total of 3 rounds in 3 years. There was no reason for him to lie or fear reprisals from anyone. Why say the fights were on the level if they weren't?


There's no direct evidence that the substance in Ali's eyes was an attempt by Liston or someone in his corner to cheat. It's all based on second hand information which circulated years after his death.

Liston certainly took Ali lightly. Given Ali's struggles in his previous two outings against Jones and Cooper, and Liston's aura of invincibility, he wasn't given much chance of pulling off an upset. There were reports from people in the Ali camp (probably Pacheco or Dundee) who were watching Liston train and reported that it was more lax than it should have been.

As for the shoulder injury, it was genuine, confirmed by Liston's medical examination at the hospital. He'd injured the shoulder before the fight, but they didn't cancel because, in the words of his manager, "we thought we could get away with it".

jab you always come up with great logic and reasoning in your responses. Ali dominated liston in the first fight and knocked him out in the 2nd. Also, remember years later leotis martin put sonny to sleep as howard cosell screamed, "the career of sonny liston is over!!!!!!!!!!!!" next someone is going to claim tyson threw his fight with douglas and both fights with holyfield. Liston was a great fighter, he was not the greatest.

Thanks for the kind words.

There's no direct evidence that the substance in Ali's eyes was an attempt by Liston or someone in his corner to cheat. It's all based on second hand information which circulated years after his death.

True enough. But if Im not mistaken Cleveland Williams also made the same allegation. Either way, it can't be proved anymore than the fights were fixed. In my mind however there is no doubt Liston made an all out effort to beat Ali the first time around.

Liston certainly took Ali lightly. Given Ali's struggles in his previous two outings against Jones and Cooper, and Liston's aura of invincibility, he wasn't given much chance of pulling off an upset. There were reports from people in the Ali camp (probably Pacheco or Dundee) who were watching Liston train and reported that it was more lax than it should have been.

No argument here.

As for the shoulder injury, it was genuine, confirmed by Liston's medical examination at the hospital. He'd injured the shoulder before the fight, but they didn't cancel because, in the words of his manager, "we thought we could get away with it".

............:fing02:

True enough. But if Im not mistaken Cleveland Williams also made the same allegation. Either way, it can't be proved anymore than the fights were fixed. In my mind however there is no doubt Liston made an all out effort to beat Ali the first time around.

I've heard others say that Cleveland Williams claimed that, also Eddie Machen, although nothing directly attributable to them. I've watched their fights with Liston, and I don't see anything to suggest they'd been blinded. The substance was probably Monsel's Solution, quite legal at the time, which they were using to treat Liston's cut, and through contact between the fighters ended up in Ali's eyes. It just seems to be one of the many shady mob conspiracy legends that people love to propagate about Liston.

I've heard others say that Cleveland Williams claimed that, also Eddie Machen, although nothing directly attributable to them. I've watched their fights with Liston, and I don't see anything to suggest they'd been blinded. The substance was probably Monsel's Solution, quite legal at the time, which they were using to treat Liston's cut, and through contact between the fighters ended up in Ali's eyes. It just seems to be one of the many shady mob conspiracy legends that people love to propagate about Liston.
Good points Zora Folley claim that something was in his eyes a long with Mackem but Angelo Dundee said that it was stuff used in those days on cuts as he rub in his eye & it irritated so Liston prob had a lot on the cut then Ali targeting it its prob just a case of too much of the ointment must have got on Ali in a clinch i agree Liston was trying to win the first but 2th is questionable it depends on who you listen to Liston said i could have got up but he was standing over me how could i get up + Wacott handle it bad.
1 Thing thats sad about it Sonny Liston got no homecoming parade when he became champ in his home town due to the fact he was convited boxing saved him in ways.

People forget that Liston got up in that second fight, and that Walcott never gave him a count so he would know how long he had been down. The count should not have started until Ali went to a neutral corner. When Sonny did get up, Walcott should not have stopped the fight based on Fleischer, who had no authority. Regardless of how long Sonny was on the canvas, the count should not have started until Ali did what he was supposed to have done. Remember the Tunney-Dempsey "long count"?

lol, pretty low article imo.

Ali schooled Liston the First fight, no debate about that.
As for the second, you could argue all day.

It could be with all the mess and lack of control, Liston did not know what was going on, and lost the fight.
Or it could be Liston simply bailed it.

You can argue all day, fact of the matter is, Ali probably would have won had it been 1 round, 3 rounds, or all the rounds in my opinion

First Fight - No, I don't think it was fixed mainly because Ali's eye condition during the fight. If Liston did in fact cheat then why would he if the fight was fixed?
Second Fight - Yes, because Liston was many things, but glass chinned is one thing he wasn't.

(However I did vote Yes)

Not the first one. The second was more of a comedy of errors. There was a punch that landed, causing a flash knockdown. Liston was not all that hurt, but that doesn't mean it was fake. Ali didn't go to a neutral corner and JJ Walcott didn't start the count. Liston was listenng for the count that never came. Meanwhile Nat fleischer at ringside told Walcott the fight was over. The two men were up and fighting when Walcott stepped in and gave the kayo to Ali.

Also read somewhere quoting Sonny when asked something about getting defeated he said something around these lines ''Why get up, when no one wants you to'' or something like that as you guys know mentality is also a big factor in boxing.

I don't think the second fight was fixed at all. I think Liston just realised he was fighting a man who had the better of him and he stayed down.

This is what I think. He wasnt that hurt, he just said **** it. His confidence was shot.

I don't get why boxers would agree to having a fix fight, especially Sonny Liston, who has his whole reputation to lose. I haven't watched the matches but I find it hard to believe they would fix a really high profile match like this.