Very very intresting character indeed! I was reading a new article about him the other day (**** all new in it tho) where it suggested they should make a movie on him and i cant agree more!

BTW when does this Joe Louis movie ive been hearing about come out or the new Tyson one? I mean in the UK


I was curious how hard people think Ketchel hit, who's power would u compare his with today?

I saw that article in Boxing Monthly. It would make for an interesting movie for sure.

Ketchel hit hard enough to knock Jack Johnson down. Can you imagine Pavlik or Abraham doing that to Klitchko? I think not.

I saw that article in Boxing Monthly. It would make for an interesting movie for sure.

Ketchel hit hard enough to knock Jack Johnson down. Can you imagine Pavlik or Abraham doing that to Klitchko? I think not.

Klitchko? Actually yeah Glass jawed f.aggot! lol

Seriously tho even considering the smaller size of heavys back then it shows real power regardless of what happened after the KD.

U think he hits harder than Pavlik then yes?


And yeah ur right it was in Boxing Monthly, i get it religiously along with boxing weekly and usually a very late copy of Ring! Whatever happened to KO and that other one Uppercut?

I'm not saying he hits harder then Pavlik, as comparing fighters 100 years apart is difficult from the difference in training, conditioning, diets to punching techniques, but he did have a high KO ratio considering the amount of fights he had in a short time period, although some opponents are questionable as many early fights were against very unexperienced fighters.

Also, you read the exact same mags as me. I pick up anything boxing.

Also, you read the exact same mags as me. I pick up anything boxing.

Ur a Boxing Junkie like me man! :boxing:
Boxing sound brutal back then but in reality for them to do all those rounds it shows u the style was so different - more clinching/wrestling and much more posing and posturing!

U no idea when the Louis movie comes out then man?

is there any other footage of ketchel apart from the johnson fight?

He's slightly bigger but watching the Johnson fight I think his style and power reminds me of a raw Nigel Benn ! If you ever seen early Nigel Benn fights he was wild with devasting power !

HI HO BRO,I KNOW, IF THE BLOW GOES WITH THE FLO, A BIG GUY WILL GO,ASS FIRST IN THE SNOW.
OK I THINK I,M ALRIGHT NOW.I HAD AN OLD TRAINER FROM ENGLAND CHARLEY PEDDLINGHAM.HE CLAIMS ANY ONE CAN BE PUT DOWN OR OUT IF THE PUNCH IS PLACED RIGHT AND WHERE IT HITS.
YOU WOULD NOT THINK A man can ko a mule.it was done in the 1800,s TO PROMOTE
FIGHTERS.WITH THE KNOWLEDGE WERE TO HIT AND HOW THEY COULD DO IT.
A CANADIAN TOMMY BURNS FROM CANADA HELD THE HEAVY WEIGHT TITTLE UNTIL HE WAS DEFEATED BY JACK JOHNSON.TOMMY HAD HIS SHARE OF K.O.,S HE WAS 5'7"AND
FOUGHT HEAVY WEIGHTS.HIS WEIGHT WAS 160 TO 165 THEY DID NOT ADVERTIZE IT
WHEN HE FOUGHT LIGHTER THAN THAT CAUSE IT WOULD AFFECT THE GATE AND BETTING .AT MCRORIES GYM IN HAMILTON ONTARIO.I WAS LATE GEARING UP FOR SOME SPARRING AND MILTS SON ASKED IF I WOULD DO SOME WORK WITH ONE OF THE FIGHTERS THAT TRAINED THERE WHEN THEY HAD FIGHTS IN T.O. OR HAMILTON.THIS LITTLE HISPANIC FELLOW WAS TO BE MY SPARING PARTNER HE WAS 108 lbs.AND 5'3'
I WAS STILL IN FAIRLY GOOD SHAPE BUT NOT 100%DUE TO MOVING CITIES AND JOINING
A NEW GYM.I WAS 140 5'7".THIS LITTLE GUY WAS FAST AND HE LANDED A FARE SHARE.
HIS COACH CAME OVER AND WANTED TO PUT ON THESE LITTLE 6oZ GLOVES BECAUSE NHIS CHARGE WAS SMALL.HE STARTED HITTING ME AND AVOIDED MY PUNCHES WHICH
DURING SPARING YOU LAY OFF.AFTER A BREAK THIS PRICK WAS DOING A GOOD JOB OF PISSING ME OFF AND I WENT AFTER HIM AFTER IT WAS CLEAR HE WAS PULLING NO PUNCHES
HE WAS HARD TO HIT BUT IN HIS CORNER I LANDED A FEW GOOD WHACKS.I WAS ON MY ASS WHEN MCCORY CAME UP AND TOLD OF THE NEAT LITTLE SHOT I TOOK JUST UNDER MY EAR ON THE JAW.I ONLY HAD AT THE TIME 9 FIGHTS AND NO ONE CAME NEAR OF EVEN HURTING ME.SO THERE YOU GO A LITTLE **** LIKE THAT.AS IT TURNED OUT THAT GUY WAS THE ARGENTINIAN CHAMP AT SUPER FLYWEIGHT AND MILT KNEW IT ALL THE TIME.HE SAID YOUR NEW GUY"CONSIDER IT YOUR INITIATION.RODHOOK

is there any other footage of ketchel apart from the johnson fight?
There's a fight he had with another great MD Billy Papke.

Don't know if its on youtube etc.

There's a fight he had with another great MD Billy Papke.

Don't know if its on youtube etc.

He actually fought Papke 4 times going 3-1(1) against him. The first Ketchel won a 10 round decision. The second fight of theirs is somewhat infamous as Papke sucker punched Ketchel as he went to touch gloves. Ketchel never recovered and was stopped in 12 and lost the middleweight championship. The third fight Ketchel had spread rumors that he had been drinking a lot and not training. It was quite the opposite, and Stanley gave Papke a good beating before stopping him in the 11th to become the first man to regain the middleweight title. The 4th fight was a 20 round UD in Ketchels favor. I haven't found a lot on fights 1 and 4, but there is a ton of info on the two middle fights (no youtube video).

Ketchel also fought the great Sam Langford and lost a 6 round newspaper decision, as well as beating Philidelphia Jack O'Brien a couple of times. O'Brien is considered one of the all time great lightheavies and Ketchel mauled him twice.

He actually fought Papke 4 times going 3-1(1) against him. The first Ketchel won a 10 round decision. The second fight of theirs is somewhat infamous as Papke sucker punched Ketchel as he went to touch gloves. Ketchel never recovered and was stopped in 12 and lost the middleweight championship. The third fight Ketchel had spread rumors that he had been drinking a lot and not training. It was quite the opposite, and Stanley gave Papke a good beating before stopping him in the 11th to become the first man to regain the middleweight title. The 4th fight was a 20 round UD in Ketchels favor. I haven't found a lot on fights 1 and 4, but there is a ton of info on the two middle fights (no youtube video).

Ketchel also fought the great Sam Langford and lost a 6 round newspaper decision, as well as beating Philidelphia Jack O'Brien a couple of times. O'Brien is considered one of the all time great lightheavies and Ketchel mauled him twice.
Thanks for that man il have a look on YouTube know i have the 4th fight between Ketchel & Papke i didn't know he went distance with Sam Langford & Jack O Brien he must have been able to carry his punch up with him as seen in the Johnson fight but i believe Johnson had a broken hand for that fight or some injury to his hand Ketchel has to be up there with all the great MDS

He actually fought Papke 4 times going 3-1(1) against him. The first Ketchel won a 10 round decision. The second fight of theirs is somewhat infamous as Papke sucker punched Ketchel as he went to touch gloves. Ketchel never recovered and was stopped in 12 and lost the middleweight championship. The third fight Ketchel had spread rumors that he had been drinking a lot and not training. It was quite the opposite, and Stanley gave Papke a good beating before stopping him in the 11th to become the first man to regain the middleweight title. The 4th fight was a 20 round UD in Ketchels favor. I haven't found a lot on fights 1 and 4, but there is a ton of info on the two middle fights (no youtube video).

No offense, Jab, but this part here on his series with Papke seems to be a little too much in Ketchel's favour for my liking, and for a couple of reasons.

First off, I do believe time has exaggerated this so called "sucker punch" that Papke was said to have caught Ketchel with at the beginning of their second fight, as Papke did shake hands with Ketchel upon entering the ring, and Jeffries did call 'time' to begin the festivities before Papke threw what was described in the California papers at the time as a "lead left hand" (a simple jab, maybe?) as the first punch of the fight. Also, if you were to read some of the round-by-rounds of it, nobody reported that that punch (which, again, may have only been a jab) had hurt Ketchel in any way, as for the first half of the first round he was said to have been giving as good as he got against Papke until being caught him with a "right and left to the face" that knocked him down apx halfway through the round (they wrote that this was at 1:20) and left him "groggy" from being caught with those.

Also, read the comments of Ketchel and his manager in the postfight, and they had no complaints about this so-called "sucker" shot that Papke was said to have landed, with Joe O'Connor saying staright out in the immediate aftermath that; "There's nothing to it. The better man won. You can see for yourself how my man looks. How could I do anything?".

And hey, might as well throw Papke's postfight comments in there, as well; "I always knew I was the better man. You notice I didn't shake hands with him. The time we fought before he hit me when I shook hands with him, and this time I took no chances."

Hmmm...and then I reread the fight reports from the papers of the time of their first fight, and while I don't see any outright mention of any sort of "sucker punch" by Ketchel, which Papke claimed, I do see that writings stating that "The first blow of the fight, a right to the jaw, sent Papke to his knees and took some of the fight out of him" or another round-by round which states that "Papke was knocked to his knees immediately"...

Who's suckering whom I wonder?

Anyways, that's just to touch on that some, but as far as the fourth fight between the two goes, Ketchel may have been lucky to get the referee's decision in that one if you read the papers from the time that were covering it. It seems Ketchel won the majority of the first half of the fight according to the reports, but Papke was said to have had much the better over the last half of the fight with Ketchel in rough shape at the end, and did enough to convince most of the crowd (who, as reported in the SF Call, called the referee a "robber", "thief", "burglar" when he gave his verdict to Ketchel), as well as those in the press who were covering it that he deserved to win the decision. It seems like a close fight, though (e.g. that same SF Call scored it 9-8-3 in Papke's favour), and everyone reported on how largely disappointing Ketchel's effort was, although giving him the benefit of the doubt, he did claim to have broken his right hand at some point in the fight. Sill, while BoxRec may have it listed as a UD, there was absolutely nothing unanimous about the verdict given to him in that fourth fight between the two.

No offense, Jab, but this part here on his series with Papke seems to be a little too much in Ketchel's favour for my liking, and for a couple of reasons.

First off, I do believe time has exaggerated this so called "sucker punch" that Papke was said to have caught Ketchel with at the beginning of their second fight, as Papke did shake hands with Ketchel upon entering the ring, and Jeffries did call 'time' to begin the festivities before Papke threw what was described in the California papers at the time as a "lead left hand" (a simple jab, maybe?) as the first punch of the fight. Also, if you were to read some of the round-by-rounds of it, nobody reported that that punch (which, again, may have only been a jab) had hurt Ketchel in any way, as for the first half of the first round he was said to have been giving as good as he got against Papke until being caught him with a "right and left to the face" that knocked him down apx halfway through the round (they wrote that this was at 1:20) and left him "groggy" from being caught with those.

Also, read the comments of Ketchel and his manager in the postfight, and they had no complaints about this so-called "sucker" shot that Papke was said to have landed, with Joe O'Connor saying staright out in the immediate aftermath that; "There's nothing to it. The better man won. You can see for yourself how my man looks. How could I do anything?".

And hey, might as well throw Papke's postfight comments in there, as well; "I always knew I was the better man. You notice I didn't shake hands with him. The time we fought before he hit me when I shook hands with him, and this time I took no chances."

Hmmm...and then I reread the fight reports from the papers of the time of their first fight, and while I don't see any outright mention of any sort of "sucker punch" by Ketchel, which Papke claimed, I do see that writings stating that "The first blow of the fight, a right to the jaw, sent Papke to his knees and took some of the fight out of him" or another round-by round which states that "Papke was knocked to his knees immediately"...

Who's suckering whom I wonder?

Anyways, that's just to touch on that some, but as far as the fourth fight between the two goes, Ketchel may have been lucky to get the referee's decision in that one if you read the papers from the time that were covering it. It seems Ketchel won the majority of the first half of the fight according to the reports, but Papke was said to have had much the better over the last half of the fight with Ketchel in rough shape at the end, and did enough to convince most of the crowd (who, as reported in the SF Call, called the referee a "robber", "thief", "burglar" when he gave his verdict to Ketchel), as well as those in the press who were covering it that he deserved to win the decision. It seems like a close fight, though (e.g. that same SF Call scored it 9-8-3 in Papke's favour), and everyone reported on how largely disappointing Ketchel's effort was, although giving him the benefit of the doubt, he did claim to have broken his right hand at some point in the fight. Sill, while BoxRec may have it listed as a UD, there was absolutely nothing unanimous about the verdict given to him in that fourth fight between the two.

No offense taken my friend. It seems I may have just read the popularized versions of fight two. I appreciate the education. :hail:

No offense taken my friend. It seems I may have just read the popularized versions of fight two. I appreciate the education. :hail:

Here's something (part that matters from this fight report) which may be the best detailing of the start of the fight I've read, and this is from a fight report coming out of Los Angeles and dated, Sept 8th, 1908;


'The bell rang. Coming together in midring the two fighters looked as well matched as two marbles from the same mould. Ketchel held out his hand to shake, but Papke, who had already announced that he would not shake hands after the bell because Ketchel had taken advantage of the shake in Milwaukee to get in the first blow, held back and fell to fiddling. "Go on and fight," he growled between set teeth. Ketchel slipped away sideways, still holding out his right hand and with the left poised for one of his famous shifts.

Papke rushed and Ketchel whipped the left over to his mouth. Instantly the Thunderbolt forced in against the blow and landed a brace of savage rights and lefts beating Ketchel back into a corner. Here they mixed it furiously, both landing.

Then of a sudden Papke's right thudded against Ketchel's cheekbone*, knocking him flat on his back, while Ketchel struggled to rise, sprawled over on his hands and knees and turned his head toward his corner in a bewildered manner. That fearful, crushing blow had damaged him like a wooden mallet...."


*Ketchel himself later described that right hand as the deciding punch in the first round, as he stated that he recieved optical nerve damage from in and whatnot. Not some "sucker punch" that some modern day writers would have you believe, and in fact, this report describes Ketchel as throwing the first (or first meaningful punch) in the fight with his own left hand, as well as some other punches when "they mixed it furiously". Most other reports that I've read describe Papke throwing a lead left (again, maybe a jab?), but this report here must have not seen it, or maybe thought that it was of no consequence for being worthy of mentioning. Then again, even those who do mention the lead left give it very little importance, and certainly don't give any credence to it have any sort of effect on Ketchel when it was thrown and/or landed.

Just some expansion of that, that's all, Jab.

Yeah i got one of the Ketchel Papke fights, shame Ketchel's career was cut short.

Here's something (part that matters from this fight report) which may be the best detailing of the start of the fight I've read, and this is from a fight report coming out of Los Angeles and dated, Sept 8th, 1908;


'The bell rang. Coming together in midring the two fighters looked as well matched as two marbles from the same mould. Ketchel held out his hand to shake, but Papke, who had already announced that he would not shake hands after the bell because Ketchel had taken advantage of the shake in Milwaukee to get in the first blow, held back and fell to fiddling. "Go on and fight," he growled between set teeth. Ketchel slipped away sideways, still holding out his right hand and with the left poised for one of his famous shifts.

Papke rushed and Ketchel whipped the left over to his mouth. Instantly the Thunderbolt forced in against the blow and landed a brace of savage rights and lefts beating Ketchel back into a corner. Here they mixed it furiously, both landing.

Then of a sudden Papke's right thudded against Ketchel's cheekbone*, knocking him flat on his back, while Ketchel struggled to rise, sprawled over on his hands and knees and turned his head toward his corner in a bewildered manner. That fearful, crushing blow had damaged him like a wooden mallet...."


*Ketchel himself later described that right hand as the deciding punch in the first round, as he stated that he recieved optical nerve damage from in and whatnot. Not some "sucker punch" that some modern day writers would have you believe, and in fact, this report describes Ketchel as throwing the first (or first meaningful punch) in the fight with his own left hand, as well as some other punches when "they mixed it furiously". Most other reports that I've read describe Papke throwing a lead left (again, maybe a jab?), but this report here must have not seen it, or maybe thought that it was of no consequence for being worthy of mentioning. Then again, even those who do mention the lead left give it very little importance, and certainly don't give any credence to it have any sort of effect on Ketchel when it was thrown and/or landed.

Just some expansion of that, that's all, Jab.

Its all good Yogi. Like I said, I appreciate the education. Im sure you have also read the same stuff as I have, yet you've done more research. I got no problem being wrong when presented with more facts than I've provided. Better to learn something than to try to keep arguing the same thing in the face of new (to me) evidence. Keep up the good work!

Yeah i got one of the Ketchel Papke fights, shame Ketchel's career was cut short.

It's certainly a shame that his life was cut short, but as far as his career goes, I think his legacy in the sport has only benefitted from the timing of his murder to be honest.

Because of his heavy drinking and other out of the ring lifestyle choices, Ketchel was in a really, really bad way physically over the last few months of his life, and there's even some reports that, just before he did die, he was told by doctors that he wouldn't live out the year if he continued on the same path that he had chosen.

Fighting? He was pretty much done with the sport at that point, I do believe, as he was cancelling fights with Langford and later, Bill Lang, because of his poor physical condition and health issues, and the reports and quotes from him and his friends after the Lang cancellation in Aug of 1910 pretty much stated that it was unlikely that he ever fought again.

Some quick examples from the last couple of months before his death in 1910;


"New York, Aug 18 - It was news in sporting circles today that Stanley Ketchel, the middleweight titleholder, has suffered a severe breakdown, and has been ordered to go to his home in Michigan for a long rest. According to some of the well-informed, his condition is so serious that it is doubtful whether he will ever be able to indulge in a championship fight again."

"Grand Rapids, Mich, Aug 29 - Middleweight Champion Stanley Ketchel, today began a course of systematic resting on his farm near Belmot, after reluctantly admitting that he is in bad shape and may have to hand his title over to Hugo Kelly without evevr fighting again."


There's much more of those types of quotes from that time, and even when the reports came out that he was murdered, he was still being described as "thin and pallid" at the time, and there's also statements by his friends and others close to him saying straight out that he "would never fight again".

Even if you go back to earlier in the year, say to the six rounder with Frank Klaus, you'll see opinions/statements stating that Ketchel was not the same fighter he used to be, and physically he only decreased from there on out. If he somehow managed to get himself "recuperated" some (would have been really, really, tough), and did enter the ring again, those back then would have likely only have been looking at a shell of a once great fighter, I believe, and I'm thinking it would be only a drastic downhill slope from there...Thus, like I stated, I think the timing of his death has only helped his boxing legacy because his career was spared that stage of things.

as far as the fourth fight between the two goes, Ketchel may have been lucky to get the referee's decision in that one if you read the papers from the time that were covering it. It seems Ketchel won the majority of the first half of the fight according to the reports, but Papke was said to have had much the better over the last half of the fight with Ketchel in rough shape at the end,


** Unless my tape is mislabeled, I have a good portion of the 4th fight, and believe you me it is lopsided Ketchel all the way. Papke made John Ruiz look like a one armed octopus compared to what he laid on Ketchel.

Gotta throw more than a handful of candy to win a fight, not to mention that Papke could be arrested for indecency for that cheeky little outfit he wore. Looked like Papke was in the wrong business and I see little in his record to see he was ever more than a minor bother to Ketchel.

Ketchel has a ferocious work rate throwing every imaginable punch in between having to grapple with Papke. Bout the only compliment I can give Papke is he could soak up lots of punishment.

** Unless my tape is mislabeled, I have a good portion of the 4th fight, and believe you me it is lopsided Ketchel all the way. Papke made John Ruiz look like a one armed octopus compared to what he laid on Ketchel.

Gotta throw more than a handful of candy to win a fight, not to mention that Papke could be arrested for indecency for that cheeky little outfit he wore. Looked like Papke was in the wrong business and I see little in his record to see he was ever more than a minor bother to Ketchel.

Ketchel has a ferocious work rate throwing every imaginable punch in between having to grapple with Papke. Bout the only compliment I can give Papke is he could soak up lots of punishment.

What constitutes a good portion, though, LRR?

I'm just asking because, as far as I know, I've never heard of there being more than apx 20 minutes of footage that has remained available through the years, and for a fight that went the full 20 rounds (60 minutes of action), that's really not enough to give an accurate indication on the whole fight.

Maybe you have more than that, though? *shrugs*

Either or, reading the fight reports it certainly seems that it was like two fights in one with Ketchel having the big lead over the course of the first 11 rounds (Papke was given credit for the 3rd and 5th, with a couple more being even), with his best work said to have been around the 9th and 10th. Papke was said to have almost nearly taken the last nine rounds in succession, save for the 16th (a lacklustre one, apparently, and judged even by the writer), and in the final tally, was given credit for one more round than was Ketchel through the whole fight.

Maybe all, or the majority, of the footage left over is possibly from the first half of the fight when Ketchel had the clear advantage, possibly?

Good stuff in this thread guys. I wish I knew more about the fighters from the early 20th century (I am trying to learn).

Ketchel is a fighter I am particularly interested in and I had his pic as my avi for a while. From the snippets I have read on him he seems a complete beast KO'ing fighters much larger in him and even flooring the great Jack Johnson. His KO percentage is mighty impressive. Its a shame footage on him is rare and that his life was so cruelly taken away in his prime; just imagine how even more great he could have been.

What constitutes a good portion, though, LRR?

I'm just asking because, as far as I know, I've never heard of there being more than apx 20 minutes of footage that has remained available through the years, and for a fight that went the full 20 rounds (60 minutes of action), that's really not enough to give an accurate indication on the whole fight.

Maybe you have more than that, though? *shrugs*


** Natch, that and a copy of the 2nd Tunney/Greb fight, some John L sparring and workout sessions, and an undated James Figg cudgel clip.

Naw, imagine I have the usual tape being circulated which I can't view anymore since it got eaten by my vcr. It was edited to progressive clips of the fight's rounds, and there was no difference in the style of the fight, Ketchel ferociously banging away, and Papke grabbing and absorbing a hiding.

I rate Ketchel quite highly because of in 75% KO ratio, equivilent to around 95% in today's terms. That was a dreary era of NC/NDs and it's telling when a fighter comes along and eliminates most speculation against the era's best.

Papke shows a major decline in his career after this series. I'm aware of Ketchel's lifestyle which included rumors of opium addiction, but Stanley was one of the most dynamic fighters who ever lived during his brief life. Seeing as the Langford result changed yet again on boxrec, I don't think we can claim he backed out of the rematch because of fear of Langford in a competitive bout.

What we have is the results of his final three fights in those final few weeks against excellent comp resulting in 3 early KOs. Maybe he does go on a 4 month bender before being murdered, but I wouldn't put much credence in era doctor's pronouncements other than it appears he had some kind of problem. It was my understanding he was in training when killed, not the signs of a fighter on his deathbed from alcohol and opium addiction.

He seems like one of those fighters destined to be shrouded in a certain amount of mystery, which makes a much better day when his name and legend come up for discussion.

Yeah i got one of the Ketchel Papke fights, shame Ketchel's career was cut short.

would you be able to upload it mate???????

Seeing as the Langford result changed yet again on boxrec, I don't think we can claim he backed out of the rematch because of fear of Langford in a competitive bout.

What we have is the results of his final three fights in those final few weeks against excellent comp resulting in 3 early KOs. Maybe he does go on a 4 month bender before being murdered, but I wouldn't put much credence in era doctor's pronouncements other than it appears he had some kind of problem. It was my understanding he was in training when killed, not the signs of a fighter on his deathbed from alcohol and opium addiction.

He seems like one of those fighters destined to be shrouded in a certain amount of mystery, which makes a much better day when his name and legend come up for discussion.

Nah, I'm not suggesting that Ketchel backed out of that particular Langford rematch due to him having fear of Sam, but rather he did so because of the poor physical condition he was in. See, they were all signed to a deal to face each in a long distance fight in early July (originally scheduled for July 2nd, later changed to the 4th for the morning of Johnson/Jeffries in Reno), and would have been fighting for a promoter by the name of Sid hester, who had the financial backing to put on the fight from of one, Tom O'Day. But, according to Hester, the fight was called off for the following reason, and this quotes of his can be found in many different sources dated June 24th, 1910 (NY Tribune, Times Dispatch, SF Call, etc., etc.);

"I am in receipt of authentic information that Ketchel has not been taking proper care of himself and is not now and could not get into proper fighting shape. Rather than burden the people of Reno with a match of this sort, I have decided to wash my hands of the whole affair and call it off. Langford, so far as I know, is in fine condition and would enter the ring willingly. As for Ketchel--well, that's another story." - Hester

Also, I don't know if we can really put too much stock in Ketchel's performance against Langford in their original go, because it was a very common opinion, according those sitting at ringside watching in Philly and reporting on the fight, that Langford was by no means attempting to give his best effort in that six rounder between the two. Most say that it was only competitive because Langford chose to make it so.

As far as those last three fights and knockouts of Ketchel's go...He still had a punch and he caught them. The cautiousness he was said to have showed in there against Flynn and Lewis isn't worth pikcing on because he got the business done soon enough with his power still on display. But the fight with Smith? Reading the reports out of New York (where the fight took place), that doesn't sound like a typical Ketchel performance for a fighter you may be thinking was still at or close to his best, as, for one example, the NY Tribune had things like this to say in the postfight writeup dated June 11th, 1910;

"He (Smith) outpointed Ketchel in the first round, solving the open defense of the champion in a apparently easy fashion, and drove him about the ring with right and left swings to the body and head."

"In the fourth round Smith rocked Ketchel from head to heels and sent him staggering from a vicious right swing to the jaw."

"His (Ketchel) judgement of distance was wofully poor, and he missed many opening by wide margins."

"The famous 'Ketchel shift' worked to poor advantage, and Smith beat the champion to the punch time and time again."

The finish of the fight was almost described as a one punch knockout from a fighter who was behind in the fight with them describing Ketchel as being "drove across the ring" just before the finishing blow, which apparently came when Ketchel "backed away and, measuring the oncoming Smith, swung his right. The blow landed squarely, and Smith crashed to the mat." This writer for the NY Tribune didn't seem too impressed with Ketchel's performance at all against a fighter I certainly wouldn't call "excellant" (as you did, LRR), and save for him showing he still had the power, it sounded like it was mostly a troubling and poor performance put forth by Ketchel in what ended up being the final fight of his life.

Anyways, I've heard/read in the past that he was supposedly in training for a Johnson rematch myself, but those readings have only been in stories written nearly a hundred years after the fact. yet, I read what was said during the actual time, and quotes from even Ketchel himself suggest the exact opposite when he was quoted on Sept 10th, 1910 as saying that he was "giving no thought to the fight game", and that if he ever did get back into the ring he would "expect to go out after the best I can find, but not Johnson". There's other quotes of similiar nature too from even after that exact point in time, but before his death, that illustrate the same thing in regards to a Johnson rematch, but it would require some digging that I don't have the time for right now. He also stated that if he did get back into condition for fighting it wouldn't be til apx the following December, which is also what he alluded to just a couple of days before he was killed (printed Oct 13th in a wire report out of Missouri) when he was quoted as saying that it was a "cinch I won't fight for a year", "maybe I'll have more fights and maybe I won't" and that he was "instructed to rest and take on some weight" (him being described as "thin and pallid" during his very last days). Also in the same article dated Oct 13th, stated that his friends were happy that he was "abadoning the ring", and also stated that "he has dropped all training and has gone back to smoking".

As the writers of the time, Ketchel's friends, aquantances, and even Ketchel himself expressed on multiple occasions during the last couple months of his life, I'm not sure he would have came back to the ring had he not been killed. But even if he did, what I've read on him illustrates that's it's unlikely that he comes even close to the form he showed in his earlier fights, especially considering many writings expressed the opinion that he was already on the downside as a fighter from even before he went on what you called this "four month binge".

I think he was all but done as a fighter, LRR, but like you, I also certainly view Ketchel as one of the true greats that have ever fought at middleweight. No doubt I view him as such.

I wish all the discussions on Boxingscene were on this level. Good K boys

I wish all the discussions on Boxingscene were on this level. Good K boys

Funny, but I was thinking the same thing yesterday. Informative AND civil. You hardly ever get those two things at the same time through an entire thread.

Cheers gentlemen.

It's certainly a shame that his life was cut short, but as far as his career goes, I think his legacy in the sport has only benefitted from the timing of his murder to be honest.

Because of his heavy drinking and other out of the ring lifestyle choices, Ketchel was in a really, really bad way physically over the last few months of his life, and there's even some reports that, just before he did die, he was told by doctors that he wouldn't live out the year if he continued on the same path that he had chosen.

Fighting? He was pretty much done with the sport at that point, I do believe, as he was cancelling fights with Langford and later, Bill Lang, because of his poor physical condition and health issues, and the reports and quotes from him and his friends after the Lang cancellation in Aug of 1910 pretty much stated that it was unlikely that he ever fought again.

Some quick examples from the last couple of months before his death in 1910;


"New York, Aug 18 - It was news in sporting circles today that Stanley Ketchel, the middleweight titleholder, has suffered a severe breakdown, and has been ordered to go to his home in Michigan for a long rest. According to some of the well-informed, his condition is so serious that it is doubtful whether he will ever be able to indulge in a championship fight again."

"Grand Rapids, Mich, Aug 29 - Middleweight Champion Stanley Ketchel, today began a course of systematic resting on his farm near Belmot, after reluctantly admitting that he is in bad shape and may have to hand his title over to Hugo Kelly without evevr fighting again."


There's much more of those types of quotes from that time, and even when the reports came out that he was murdered, he was still being described as "thin and pallid" at the time, and there's also statements by his friends and others close to him saying straight out that he "would never fight again".

Even if you go back to earlier in the year, say to the six rounder with Frank Klaus, you'll see opinions/statements stating that Ketchel was not the same fighter he used to be, and physically he only decreased from there on out. If he somehow managed to get himself "recuperated" some (would have been really, really, tough), and did enter the ring again, those back then would have likely only have been looking at a shell of a once great fighter, I believe, and I'm thinking it would be only a drastic downhill slope from there...Thus, like I stated, I think the timing of his death has only helped his boxing legacy because his career was spared that stage of things.

I wish all the discussions on Boxingscene were on this level. Good K boys

very interesting stuff indeed, i have an old boxing book and it has the widely spread propaganda about the papke throat punch being the reason ketchel lost. that story must have really got around

sorry to hijack the thread but, Yogi, where do you rate harry greb as an all time middleweight?

Funny, but I was thinking the same thing yesterday. Informative AND civil. You hardly ever get those two things at the same time through an entire thread.

They are rare: Savor the moment! :boxing:

Very very intresting character indeed! I was reading a new article about him the other day (**** all new in it tho) where it suggested they should make a movie on him and i cant agree more!

BTW when does this Joe Louis movie ive been hearing about come out or the new Tyson one? I mean in the UK


I was curious how hard people think Ketchel hit, who's power would u compare his with today?
No 1 could hit as hard as Ketchel today

sorry to hijack the thread but, Yogi, where do you rate harry greb as an all time middleweight?

Ah, I'm not really big on ranking fighters most days, my friend, but if I was ranking history's great middleweights, Greb would be right near, or even at the very top of such a thing.

some of you seems to really know your stuff, i wanted to mention one thing and ask a question, first at the end of the johnson fight he knocks ketchel out with a right hand and "picks his teeth out of his glove" but its his left glove he is pawing at, so that is a typical johnson b.s. story,

and my question, you usually hear how they had an arrangment to go the distance and Ketchel broke it and thats when he dropped him, but i'v read an article(i think by Mike Casey) talking about him getting footage of the entire fight and watching it for the first time, the way he described it was them two going at it all out from round one and he was adamant that the Johnson story about an agreement and him going easy on Ketchel was bs

Most likely just wanted to save face seeing as a 158lb middleweight hurt him bad, opinions on this?

No 1 could hit as hard as Ketchel today

None that I can think of. Going back a few years maybe Nigel Benn.

Poet

some of you seems to really know your stuff, i wanted to mention one thing and ask a question, first at the end of the johnson fight he knocks ketchel out with a right hand and "picks his teeth out of his glove" but its his left glove he is pawing at, so that is a typical johnson b.s. story,

and my question, you usually hear how they had an arrangment to go the distance and Ketchel broke it and thats when he dropped him, but i'v read an article(i think by Mike Casey) talking about him getting footage of the entire fight and watching it for the first time, the way he described it was them two going at it all out from round one and he was adamant that the Johnson story about an agreement and him going easy on Ketchel was bs

Most likely just wanted to save face seeing as a 158lb middleweight hurt him bad, opinions on this?

A quick reply because I'm largely going on memory for this, but it's possible that Johnson did have to wipe of Ketchel's teeth from his glove, as there was no doubt that Ketchel did lose two or three of his upper front teeth, which he himself said came from that final blow landed by Johnson. Those interviewing Ketchel in the immediate aftermath also noted in their reports that he was missing some teeth, and you can also find quotes in the papers from the time from Ketchel's manager saying that he had two of them in his possession, and was planning on making something out of them (dice, maybe? Can't remember exactly).

I can't say one way or the other if the story about Ketchel's teeth being stuck in Johnson's glove is true, but I wouldn't totally discount it...Sometimes when I have an itch in my right hand I'll scratch it with my left hand, or even by rubbing it against my left hand/arm or something.

As far as whether the fight was on the level or not, I'll just say that there were a lot of suspicious things going on in the build up to the fight as reported in the papers, as well as in the aftermath*. Also there was plenty of controversy surrounding if that punch from Ketchel even landed (including quotes from Johnson saying that it landed on his jaw, but then later changing his story to it landing behind his head), with most in attendance and viewing from the ringside area thinking that it didn't...Even watching the fight as often as I have over the years, I myself have never been convinced on that being a legitimate knockdown or not.

*One of those being that Ketchel was reported to have bought a brand new fancy car for a substancial sum of money only a couple of days after the fight, which raised questions as to where he got the money because his loser end of the purse was said to only be in the neighborhood of $6,000 to $7,000, which should have been mostly lost due to him having a much publicized $5,000 side bet with Johnson on the outcome...His car that he was being seen driving around in was said to have cost much, much more than the thousand or two Ketchel would had left over from the fight.

There was also some prefight talk of some arrangents being made when the fight was rumoured to be off only a couple/few days before scheduled, some suspicious meetings between Johnson and the promoter (Coffroth) about movie rights, including one said to have taken place in the wee hours of the morning (after midnight), which was said to have happened during the time when the fight was in danger of being called off. Reports that the "wise" had it on good athority that it wouldn't go 15, etc., etc. Things like and other stuff that where suspicions went well beyond, but included what happened in the ring on that occasion.

I'd have to read through all that stuff again to paint a completely accurate picture of what I'd like to say, but the fight was heavily covered by the press during the time and it would be quite timely reading up on all that.

Ah, I'm not really big on ranking fighters most days, my friend, but if I was ranking history's great middleweights, Greb would be right near, or even at the very top of such a thing.

yeah, me too. i wish we had more film of greb, he's one of my favorite of the old guys. even in the film of him screwing around with the bag that i've seen, he looked pretty fast, and i've read about how he beat up johnny wilson and mickey walker while he only had one eye

Stanley Ketchel is one of the Greatest Middleweights of 'All-Time!' Had serious kryptonite in both hands (49kos in 52 fights - total 64fights). Extremely strong Middleweight, wearing men down before breaking them in the clinches.

Good chin and great stamina i.e. winning one fight with a 32nd round KO and venturing past 17 rounds 10 times. KOd 4 Middleweight Champions and Light Heavy Champ Jack O'Brien, lasted distance with a peak Sam Langford and dropped Jack Johnson.

Ketchel failed to rise above the limitations of his era such as upright stance, slow feet and not throwing combinations, only throwing single punches. He was also a self-taught brawler who could be outboxed.