View Full Version : Uneducated Newcomers and Boxing Fanboys. Read this post first.


YUHHHHHHH!
09-24-2008, 12:16 PM
I think I speak for 90% of the people from the Mixed Martial Arts Discussion board when I say, "get the **** out." You know who you are, and those of you that I am directing this to, have some dignity and get Mayweather's **** out from your throat.

With that said, the technical aspect. I am going to loosely define a few of the popular aspects of Boxing, Mixed Martial Arts and Kickboxing. I will also loosely define Mixed Martial Arts. I'll site where I am getting some of these quotes/definitions at the end of my post.

Boxing: a combat sport in which two participants, generally of similar weight, fight each other with their fists.

Muay Thai/Kickboxing: refers to the sport of using martial-arts-style kicks and boxing-style punches [Elbows: Thai Boxing] to defeat an opponent in a similar way to that of standard boxing.

Wrestling: is the act of physical engagement between two people in which each wrestler strives to get an advantage over, or control of, the opponent. Physical techniques which embody the style of wrestling are clinching, holding, locking, and leverage.

[Brazilian] Jiu Jitsu: is a martial art and combat sport that focuses on grappling and especially ground fighting with the goal of gaining a dominant position and using joint-locks and chokeholds to force an opponent to submit or be knocked out depending on what submission method is used.

Mixed Martial Arts: is a full contact combat sport that allows a wide variety of fighting techniques, from a mixture of martial arts traditions and non-traditions, to be used in competitions. The rules allow the use of striking and grappling techniques, both while standing and on the ground. Such competitions allow martial artist of different backgrounds to compete. The term may also be used however less correctly to describe hybrid martial arts styles.

[Note: Hmm the definitions get bigger with the more advanced the disciplines become, don't you think? Just a thought.]

Now that you have been further educated and understand some of the aspects of MMA, let's discuss some situations and find out just what makes Mixed Martial Arts fighter more dangerous in a general fight.

Value Tudo, No Rules. The inspiration of modern MMA in The United States. It's common sense that in a typical fight, there are no rules in the street/minimal rules against cheap fighting in the Cage. One of the things you should note is the history of open weight tournaments in Mixed Martial Arts. The realism of a fight that is created by Mixed Martial Arts allows someone significantly lower in weight to defeat an opponent, which results in it being much more closely associated with a street fight than a boxing bout. In layman's terms, Mixed Martial Arts is a more realistic fight than boxing.

Now for the hypothetical:

Professional Heavyweight Boxer vs Professional Heavyweight Mixed Martial Artist.
Almost 100% of the time it is a short fight, not going anywhere past the first round, let alone a minute. The boxer throws some jabs, a big hook, which is ducked. The Mixed Martial Artist scores a take down, gets full mount, the boxer is completely defenseless. The Boxer is either KO'd or Submitted from this position.

Let's discuss the reasons why match ups like this almost always end this way.


The closest a boxer gets to practicing ground work is when they are working on their balance. This leaves them completely vulnerable to a take down
When taken down, a boxer who has been trained in only one aspect of fighting [Hand Striking], has no real way of defending from their back.
Boxers are fighting against an opponent with GRAVITY against them as well. Trying to keep yourself standing and fighting is much harder than dragging someone down and fighting.

Not to mention, a boxer gets beaten nearly every time against a striker who also utilizes other aspects of striking, like kicks and elbows. [Ex: Muay Thai, Karate, Capoeira, Kickboxing] But that is a different subject.

To wrap this post up, I'll just say one more thing. Boxing is one aspect of fighting. It is enhancing a person's hand striking with big gloves, there is no other aspect of a fight involved. To roughly quote Pat Miletich, "If you look at fighting as a tree, Mixed Martial Arts is the entire tree. Boxing is just a small branch of this tree."

I hope this post has helped to further educate some of you people who litter this forum with bull****.

Or, if you are too dense to fathom what I've just said. Here are a couple of videos that prove my point.

Entry Level Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Fighter demolishes Well Schooled Boxer.
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Mediocre Wrestler TKO's a Well Schooled Boxer with ease.
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Thank you for your time.

Siting:

http://www.wikipedia.org/
http://www.youtube.com/

Spare Moody
09-24-2008, 12:39 PM
i think it's safe to say that a boxer will probably win in a boxing match and an mma fighter will win in an mma match.

you'll get trolls no matter what. i'm pretty sure sherdog has a bunch of idiots that tell boxing fans "any MMA fighter will knock out any professional boxer in a boxing match in less than 10 seconds!!"


but props for the thread because, as long as the posters are educated and mature, the whole mma vs. boxing topic can be a pretty good discussion.

Mech.
09-24-2008, 01:12 PM
i think it's safe to say that a boxer will probably win in a boxing match and an mma fighter will win in an mma match.

you'll get trolls no matter what. i'm pretty sure sherdog has a bunch of idiots that tell boxing fans "any MMA fighter will knock out any professional boxer in a boxing match in less than 10 seconds!!"


but props for the thread because, as long as the posters are educated and mature, the whole mma vs. boxing topic can be a pretty good discussion.

ding ding ding. The thread starter is just guilty at making stupid assumptions as the people hes supposedly here to educate.

YUHHHHHHH!
09-24-2008, 01:16 PM
ding ding ding. The thread starter is just guilty at making stupid assumptions as the people hes supposedly here to educate.

I'm guilty of making the assumption equivalent to "9/10 a well schooled boxer decapitates an MMA fighter in a street fight?"

You are one of the people I was talking to. Get off my nuts, my post is the truth. In a real FIGHT. The beginning of all of these sports is FIGHTING, and in a real FIGHT, an MMA Fighter destroys a Boxer.

Kakutogi-Gumi
09-24-2008, 01:18 PM
You forgot Sambo, Catch and Judo.

Gojira
09-24-2008, 01:29 PM
what the **** was that black guy doing. when he was getting ground and pounded he let his right hand on the floor instead of using it to gaurd himself.

Spare Moody
09-24-2008, 01:31 PM
I'm guilty of making the assumption equivalent to "9/10 a well schooled boxer decapitates an MMA fighter in a street fight?"

You are one of the people I was talking to. Get off my nuts, my post is the truth. In a real FIGHT. The beginning of all of these sports is FIGHTING, and in a real FIGHT, an MMA Fighter destroys a Boxer.

generally speaking, yes.

but are we taking into account that the 2 street fighters are aware of eachother's abilities? in a street fight, even a well trained MMA fighter won't just go for a takedown right away. this is especially true if there are friends around that may jump in. if you're on the ground and that happens then yer ****ed. that's one of the reasons why most street fights start off with the 2 exchanging blows before anything goes to the ground. so, if you've got an MMA fighter and a boxer not aware of eachother's abilities then there's now a higher chance of the boxer knockin out (or severely damaging) the MMA fighter before he has the opportunity to ground n' pound.

now if they know of eachother's abilities (for example, in a sanctioned fight), and it's NHB rules, then the MMA fighter is more likely to go for the takedown immediately and then the boxer's ****ed. but, then again, that just goes back to my first point which is that either athlete will most likely win when the rules are more fitting towards their fighting style.

mgkirkpatrick
09-24-2008, 01:41 PM
Just a thought.. Why not go to a MMA forum. That's not a 'this is boxing scene **** off' comment. I'm just saying.. if i want to talk mma I go to mmaforum.com more threads, more people that know what they're talking about. The mma area here is one of the smallest on the entire board. 99% of the people here are boxing fans, it's like moving to Brazil and complaining that everyone loves soccer and knows nothing about gridiron.

Just saying.

Spare Moody
09-24-2008, 01:46 PM
Just a thought.. Why not go to a MMA forum. That's not a 'this is boxing scene **** off' comment. I'm just saying.. if i want to talk mma I go to mmaforum.com more threads, more people that know what they're talking about. The mma area here is one of the smallest on the entire board. 99% of the people here are boxing fans, it's like moving to Brazil and complaining that everyone loves soccer and knows nothing about gridiron.

Just saying.

for the same reason that i would rather discuss boxing on an MMA forum: no trolls. anytime a website's main topic is discussed then that forum is littered with trolls and dip****s. i see people complaining about NSB having the same problem.

the MMA forum on here has only about 10-15 regulars but all of them are mature and educated so we still have great discussions. the only trolls on here are the boxing fans. works out perfect IMO.

Mech.
09-24-2008, 01:49 PM
I'm guilty of making the assumption equivalent to "9/10 a well schooled boxer decapitates an MMA fighter in a street fight?"

You are one of the people I was talking to. Get off my nuts, my post is the truth. In a real FIGHT. The beginning of all of these sports is FIGHTING, and in a real FIGHT, an MMA Fighter destroys a Boxer.

So we're talking about street fights now? **** off. We're talking about trained athletes competing by the rules of a sport. Of course an MMA guy is going to win in an MMA fight. NO ****. Its like saying a football player will get dominated in a soccer match. At their core theyre both just athletes , preparation is what makes all the difference. An MMA guy is just likely to lose in a boxing match against a well trained boxer , am I going to hold that against him? No, more than likely the MMA guy isnt as well prepared as the guy who does nothing but box.

mgkirkpatrick
09-24-2008, 01:53 PM
generally speaking, yes.

but are we taking into account that the 2 street fighters are aware of eachother's abilities? in a street fight, even a well trained MMA fighter won't just go for a takedown right away. this is especially true if there are friends around that may jump in. if you're on the ground and that happens then yer ****ed. that's one of the reasons why most street fights start off with the 2 exchanging blows before anything goes to the ground. so, if you've got an MMA fighter and a boxer not aware of eachother's abilities then there's now a higher chance of the boxer knockin out (or severely damaging) the MMA fighter before he has the opportunity to ground n' pound.

now if they know of eachother's abilities (for example, in a sanctioned fight), and it's NHB rules, then the MMA fighter is more likely to go for the takedown immediately and then the boxer's ****ed. but, then again, that just goes back to my first point which is that either athlete will most likely win when the rules are more fitting towards their fighting style.

Exactly right. Good post.

mgkirkpatrick
09-24-2008, 01:54 PM
for the same reason that i would rather discuss boxing on an MMA forum: no trolls. anytime a website's main topic is discussed then that forum is littered with trolls and dip****s. i see people complaining about NSB having the same problem.

the MMA forum on here has only about 10-15 regulars but all of them are mature and educated so we still have great discussions. the only trolls on here are the boxing fans. works out perfect IMO.

I see what you're saying. I guess with my limited MMA knowledge I can probably learn a bit from everyone on those sites whereas I definitely get pissed off spending too much time in NSB on here.

Spare Moody
09-24-2008, 02:00 PM
I see what you're saying. I guess with my limited MMA knowledge I can probably learn a bit from everyone on those sites whereas I definitely get pissed off spending too much time in NSB on here.

exactly. you to sherdog or the underground then you'll have to sift through the 9 outt've 10 bull**** posts to get some good insight or feedback. over here, people have their **** together.

i'll come into this forum the next day after a UFC event and there's rarely any feedback i can give because most of the posts have everything i wanted to say covered.

75th
09-24-2008, 02:04 PM
You forgot Sambo, Catch and Judo.

Beat me too it.

AntonTheMeh
09-24-2008, 02:36 PM
well that was informative.:lol1:
personally I'm a noob; but i know that alot this boxing vs mma **** was started by the leader[dana white i guess] of MMA.I'll watch a match once in a while.but when you make certain assumptions about A boxer vs MMAer you kinda look foolish.have you seen the best p4p mmaer in the world box?
he looks awfull.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Dt1GcBeYUmY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Dt1GcBeYUmY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

(can't find the entire fight)

you're pretty much making it seem like MMA is glorified street fighting.
vale tudo.everything goes right? i mean, that's what goes on in a street fight, no?
personally I'm a fan of urijah faber, and i think he is to MMA what mayweather was to boxing.i can see and appreciate the science and the technical aspect of MMA as well as the brutality cause of a fighter like him.

and lastly, this is called boxingscene? right?

YUHHHHHHH!
09-24-2008, 03:23 PM
I never compared it to a Street fight, I was quoting a nuthugger who compared it to a street fight. If you're going to try and dis me, you should at least get your facts straight. I said in a real sanctioned fight.

If you read my post, I pointed out some of the popular Martial Arts, I never said that I would list all of them. Ex: Krav Magra, Sambo, Judo, etc. There's thousands of different Martial Arts I could have listed. I was just using a few to make a point.

vinnie7731
09-24-2008, 08:18 PM
for the same reason that i would rather discuss boxing on an MMA forum: no trolls. anytime a website's main topic is discussed then that forum is littered with trolls and dip****s. i see people complaining about NSB having the same problem.

the MMA forum on here has only about 10-15 regulars but all of them are mature and educated so we still have great discussions. the only trolls on here are the boxing fans. works out perfect IMO.

yeah, this is true.
most of the time people on this forum are educated and make informing posts. its when you have some jackass come over to the mma area and make a stupid uneducated post just to piss off the regulars. most of the time it makes no sense. frankly, i also believe those people are jealous of how mma is exploding in popularity. all they really say that is true is that mixed martial artists get paid ****.

Kakutogi-Gumi
09-24-2008, 08:31 PM
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MetalVomit
09-24-2008, 08:31 PM
and in a real FIGHT, an MMA Fighter destroys a Boxer.

The best striker in MMA loses brutally to a top ranked boxer of a similar weight in a boxing match. Likewise vice versa.

"In a real fight", if a boxer makes first contact on an mma fighters face or liver, the fight's over. "In a real fight", if an MMA fighter can takedown or strike first on a boxer, the fight's over. This is a pointless argument. I've been a hardcore boxing fan for about 9 years, I've been an mma fan for about 4. You're not going to do anything but go in circles when making this argument.

AntonTheMeh
09-24-2008, 08:33 PM
I never compared it to a Street fight, I was quoting a nuthugger who compared it to a street fight. If you're going to try and dis me, you should at least get your facts straight. I said in a real sanctioned fight.

If you read my post, I pointed out some of the popular Martial Arts, I never said that I would list all of them. Ex: Krav Magra, Sambo, Judo, etc. There's thousands of different Martial Arts I could have listed. I was just using a few to make a point.

where did i dis you ?
value tudo means anything goes.anything goes in a street fight.

YUHHHHHHH!
09-24-2008, 09:02 PM
The best striker in MMA loses brutally to a top ranked boxer of a similar weight in a boxing match. Likewise vice versa.

"In a real fight", if a boxer makes first contact on an mma fighters face or liver, the fight's over. "In a real fight", if an MMA fighter can takedown or strike first on a boxer, the fight's over. This is a pointless argument. I've been a hardcore boxing fan for about 9 years, I've been an mma fan for about 4. You're not going to do anything but go in circles when making this argument.

I guarantee you the MMA fighter wins more than a boxer. It's not 50/50. A Mixed Martial Arts fighter trains in all aspects. A boxer gets hit in the liver, he crumbles and gets wrecked on his back. An MMA fighter gets hit in the liver, and submits the boxer off of his back.

It's all about the branching. Boxing is one Branch, MMA is all branches.

where did i dis you ?

It wasn't directed at you man. I laughed really hard at that picture in your sig by the way, haha.

vinnie7731
09-24-2008, 09:35 PM
The best striker in MMA loses brutally to a top ranked boxer of a similar weight in a boxing match. Likewise vice versa.

"In a real fight", if a boxer makes first contact on an mma fighters face or liver, the fight's over. "In a real fight", if an MMA fighter can takedown or strike first on a boxer, the fight's over. This is a pointless argument. I've been a hardcore boxing fan for about 9 years, I've been an mma fan for about 4. You're not going to do anything but go in circles when making this argument.

true

until we throw a boxer into the cage with an mma fighter or an mma fighter into the boxing ring on 10 different occasions with 20 well known subjects in the current time we are in.....then it is a pointless arguement. people can post all the videos and all the evidence, and make their argument but the fact is its pointless at this time.

think about it......who gives a **** if your favorite boxer beats up your friends favorite ufc star or vise versa?? i mean really.

Viktor777
09-24-2008, 10:02 PM
Boxing is a more discipline sport then MMA, any day of the week. Don't give me any other crap. A boxer vs mma fight is usually a win for the boxer. Its not hard to learn how to take down someone.

sugarshanenas
09-25-2008, 12:14 AM
yeah cause a boxer is really gonna jab jab hook in a street fight

neils7147933
09-25-2008, 12:20 AM
Boxing is a more discipline sport then MMA, any day of the week. Don't give me any other crap. A boxer vs mma fight is usually a win for the boxer. Its not hard to learn how to take down someone.
Why couldn't Ray Mercer, who the WBO is STILL going to rank to face David Haye, beat Kimbo Slice then?

Kakutogi-Gumi
09-25-2008, 12:30 AM
Boxing is a more discipline sport then MMA, any day of the week. Don't give me any other crap. A boxer vs mma fight is usually a win for the boxer. Its not hard to learn how to take down someone.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5UcmIQ4xLrY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5UcmIQ4xLrY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

To make it worse, Mercer had Sensei Ricardo Liborio of American Top Team in his corner. American Top Team!

That choke was baby stuff.

Kakutogi-Gumi
09-25-2008, 12:32 AM
Why couldn't Ray Mercer, who the WBO is STILL going to rank to face David Haye, beat Kimbo Slice then?

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/RIC/2300-8347~Coca-Cola-Have-a-Coke-Posters.jpg

Palma
09-25-2008, 02:05 AM
It is safe to say that each sport has its' heroes and there is a big wall that divides these two sports. It is like comparing apples to oranges!

You put an MMA fighter in a situation where he has to compete against a boxer under boxing rules then he will most likely loose. Anderson is a bad ass MMA & Thai fighter, but get him in there against a pro like RJJ and he will get his ass handed to him.

If a boxer get's in there and competes with an MMA fighter under MMA rules then I can imagine the fight would be over quite quickly.

These scenarios are the black & white of it. I am sure if a boxer knew he had to compete in an MMA bout under MMA rules then he would train in the other disciplines to better prepare for it. This is the same for the MMA fighter wishing to compete against the boxer under boxing rules.

Palma
09-25-2008, 02:23 AM
Boxing is a more discipline sport then MMA, any day of the week. Don't give me any other crap. A boxer vs mma fight is usually a win for the boxer. Its not hard to learn how to take down someone.

I agree that boxing is a very disciplined sport cause I used to box. I had 14 amateur fights before I switched over to Thai boxing. I disagree with you about the notion that learning takedowns is an easy feat. It might appear easy when the person you are trying to takedown is not defending, but try changing levels and shooting in on a someone who possesses great reaction time and is skilled at sprawling and getting his underhooks into you. I guarantee you will be in for a long day if you have not perfected your shot.

Here's a visual that will hopefully get my point across cause I assure you that it would not be easy for anyone (MMA, Wrestler and especially a Boxer) to take someone down on the ground if they had solid fundamentals of the sprawl mastered.

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ßringer
09-25-2008, 04:18 AM
I don't even frequent this board, but I had to drop in on this one.

I love how the thread starter was apparently here to "educate" boxing fans and/or MMA haters about MMA, and then went on to say that pretty much any boxer gets his ass kicked by even an entry-level MMA guy 9 times out of 10.

He then went on over the next 4 or 5 posts to elaborate on why, giving some serious insight such as "MMA has many branches" and speaking of boxing's limitations.

Pot, meet kettle. Dude, you're just as much of a hater as the people you're trying to "educate".

In an MMA style match the MMA guy wins. In a boxing match, the boxer wins. It's honestly that simple, no need to read further into it.

ßringer
09-25-2008, 04:20 AM
Bottom line: I'm a boxing fan, have been for nearly 18 years now. MMA doesn't float my boat, it's not my cup of tea, and it isn't my bag, and all that jazz. I don't hate it or it's fans simply because I love boxing, I'm indifferent to it. If you like it, cool, if not, cool.

This whole retarded thing is like a sports version of "East Coast vs. West Coast" started by Dana White and Don King.

ßringer
09-25-2008, 04:28 AM
And as long as we're posting videos, he's MMA fighter Don Frye getting beat down in a street fight by a retired boxer.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/G1hdqGbDLMg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/G1hdqGbDLMg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

The entire argument is absurd and goes in circles.

Kakutogi-Gumi
09-25-2008, 04:56 AM
That's cool Bringer. That's all we want. If it's not your thing, that's cool. At least you give the fighters the same respect you give boxers. That's all we asking.

Ah, the Chaos In The Cow Palace. You know the story behind that?

ßringer
09-25-2008, 05:48 AM
That's cool Bringer. That's all we want. If it's not your thing, that's cool. At least you give the fighters the same respect you give boxers. That's all we asking.

Ah, the Chaos In The Cow Palace. You know the story behind that?

I know nothing about that rumble. Some people say Frye was drunk, others say he was stumbling like that because of getting hit. I guess he was trash-talking the ex boxer, or maybe the ex boxer was just a dicK? I know nothing of Frye.

I do watch a few select MMA fighters but on a whole, I can't watch an entire card. Just a select few dudes who I like.

It's my opinion that nobody, certainly nobody on this website, is in any position to criticsize a man who risks his life for the sake of his sport and the fan's enjoyment.

Boxers and MMA guys risk their lives on the daily. That's warrior ****.

sunthunder
09-25-2008, 06:39 AM
Boxing is a more discipline sport then MMA, any day of the week. Don't give me any other crap. A boxer vs mma fight is usually a win for the boxer. Its not hard to learn how to take down someone.

Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. It's incredibly hard to learn wrestling and not only to learn takedowns but also to avoid them. There are a ton of guys from K-1 whose striking far far exceeds that of anyone in MMA, but the only guy to cross over (after becoming a well established k-1 fighter) and become a serious threat to his division is Mirko Crocop, and he still gets taken down a lot.

Seriously, go try wrestling or bjj.

BALLISTIC
09-25-2008, 09:09 AM
chance are in a real fight its all about standing up..

boxing shows more skills....if u ask me..

1bad65
09-25-2008, 09:54 AM
chance are in a real fight its all about standing up..

One of my coaches is a BJJ Black Belt. He loves to go downtown (in Austin) and he will fight at the drop of a hat. Every street fight he has gotten in he took it to the ground. Only one time was he hit by another guy while he was on the ground, the other times he beat the **** out of the other guy.

YUHHHHHHH!
09-25-2008, 11:23 AM
Bringer, are you dense? I'm not talking about in their respected sports. I am talking in general. The very essence of a fight, you trying to defeat your opponent by any means possible.

A fighter trained in all disciplines defeats a fighter trained in one discipline.

Please don't be so naive. The post was directed towards the people who come in here and say things like, "WHO CARES BOXING WINS 9/10 TIMES EASY KNOCKOUT OVER MMA FIGHTER." If you're smart enough to argue it, you should be smart enough to realize that boxing loses against MMA. I don't understand your argument, you're just misinterpreting what I am saying.

ßringer
09-25-2008, 05:43 PM
Bringer, are you dense? I'm not talking about in their respected sports. I am talking in general. The very essence of a fight, you trying to defeat your opponent by any means possible.

A fighter trained in all disciplines defeats a fighter trained in one discipline.

Please don't be so naive. The post was directed towards the people who come in here and say things like, "WHO CARES BOXING WINS 9/10 TIMES EASY KNOCKOUT OVER MMA FIGHTER." If you're smart enough to argue it, you should be smart enough to realize that boxing loses against MMA. I don't understand your argument, you're just misinterpreting what I am saying.

There are morons in both fanbases, you seem to be reluctant to accept this. Boxing fans in general don't appreciate the ground game of MMA, because it doesn't appeal to them. MMA fans in general don't appreciate the defensive genius of a Pernell Whitaker or Floyd Mayweather because it doesn't appeal to them.

I come from Philadelphia, I've been in many fights. I've won some, I've lost some. I can honestly say that nobody I've ever fought has tried to wrestle me to the ground.

Who's to say a boxer couldn't catch an MMA guy trying to shoot in on him and land a counter uppercut and knock the guy out? Who's to say the boxer wouldn't get taken down and beaten to piss?

It all depends on the particular fighters, their respective level of skills, and the circumstances under which they scrap, be it in the ring, in the cage, or on the streets.

ßringer
09-25-2008, 05:46 PM
One of my coaches is a BJJ Black Belt. He loves to go downtown (in Austin) and he will fight at the drop of a hat. Every street fight he has gotten in he took it to the ground. Only one time was he hit by another guy while he was on the ground, the other times he beat the **** out of the other guy.

Isn't such behavior strictly against the very code of honor and discipline supposedly instilled by training in the Martial Arts?

Palma
09-25-2008, 05:57 PM
And as long as we're posting videos, he's MMA fighter Don Frye getting beat down in a street fight by a retired boxer.

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The entire argument is absurd and goes in circles.


Do you guys remember the show "Dog, The Bounty Hunter"? Well this is an argument that took place at some hotel in Hawaii and the big Samoan dude that KO'd Frye is Sonny. Sonny is the Boxing coach of Dog's younger son (You see him in the video, he has a ponytail and is wearing a white wife beater shirt).

75th
09-25-2008, 05:59 PM
And as long as we're posting videos, he's MMA fighter Don Frye getting beat down in a street fight by a retired boxer.

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The entire argument is absurd and goes in circles.

The guy blind sides a drunk Frye who by all accounts landed a fair amount of punches to boot. This was taken from first hand spectators.

Kakutogi-Gumi
09-25-2008, 09:21 PM
Do you guys remember the show "Dog, The Bounty Hunter"? Well this is an argument that took place at some hotel in Hawaii and the big Samoan dude that KO'd Frye is Sonny. Sonny is the Boxing coach of Dog's younger son (You see him in the video, he has a ponytail and is wearing a white wife beater shirt).

That was at the Cow Palace back in October of '07. It was the worst fraud to happen to the wrestling community and the first fraud to happen in the MMA community. Long of the short of it, three fraudsters created a pro-wrestling convention and MMA show. When things got too heavy and the CSAC canceled the MMA event due to a rickety cage bought by the cons, the cons hightailed it, leaving wrestlers and fighters poor and stranded. The cons also took the fighters pay money and it left the promoters high and dry and in a corner.

Now everyone thinks that Don Frye was druck off his ass while all this was happening. Eyewitnesses claim he was level headed and sober. Frye tried to defuse the situation and save the promoters heads. Sonny wasn't having none of it and started to get into Frye's face. Now, the way I heard it, Frye was trying to lure Sonny outside and lock him out till he cooled down. Frye definitly didn't make it to the door and was caught off guard, as the video showed us. The promoters successfully got Frye out of the Palace and back to his hotel to avoid police, cool down and libate.

Frye, with friends later came down from his room, somewhat schloshed and were met by Sonny again. Sonny floored Frye putting him through the hotel's front doors. Frye went to the hospital for stiches, Sonny went to a holding cell.

Virgil Caine
09-25-2008, 11:12 PM
Isn't such behavior strictly against the very code of honor and discipline supposedly instilled by training in the Martial Arts?

A bit stereotypical there no?

Really, I don't dispute that but things are not so black and white.

YUHHHHHHH!
09-25-2008, 11:24 PM
That was at the Cow Palace back in October of '07. It was the worst fraud to happen to the wrestling community and the first fraud to happen in the MMA community. Long of the short of it, three fraudsters created a pro-wrestling convention and MMA show. When things got too heavy and the CSAC canceled the MMA event due to a rickety cage bought by the cons, the cons hightailed it, leaving wrestlers and fighters poor and stranded. The cons also took the fighters pay money and it left the promoters high and dry and in a corner.

Now everyone thinks that Don Frye was druck off his ass while all this was happening. Eyewitnesses claim he was level headed and sober. Frye tried to defuse the situation and save the promoters heads. Sonny wasn't having none of it and started to get into Frye's face. Now, the way I heard it, Frye was trying to lure Sonny outside and lock him out till he cooled down. Frye definitly didn't make it to the door and was caught off guard, as the video showed us. The promoters successfully got Frye out of the Palace and back to his hotel to avoid police, cool down and libate.

Frye, with friends later came down from his room, somewhat schloshed and were met by Sonny again. Sonny floored Frye putting him through the hotel's front doors. Frye went to the hospital for stiches, Sonny went to a holding cell.

To add to this, the fight you are seeing was there second (Of three) altercation(s). What I've gathered from the reports of it is that Don Frye wrestled him to the ground and subdued him to try and cool him off. They pulled Frye off of Sonny and the situation seemed to be defused. The camera cuts in and Sonny, still angry over being pinned, blindsides Frye with a flurry of punches.

So in short, he's a ***** who can't control his anger. Punching someone in the back of the head in a lobby isn't any way to act.

ßringer
09-25-2008, 11:33 PM
A bit stereotypical there no?

Really, I don't dispute that but things are not so black and white.

I honestly don't know much about Martial Arts. But from all accounts and everything I've ever heard, the disciplines are very strict and supposed to be used for self defense purposes only. Unless, of course, you're a professional fighter.

It just seems a bit odd to me that a trainer with a black belt in BJJ would go out of his way to start fights with people just to showcase his skills.

Perhaps that is a stereotype, but in my City there are plenty of dojos and I don't see trainers running around town picking fights with people on the fly. Or maybe I'm just not paying close enough attention? :lol1:

Virgil Caine
09-25-2008, 11:40 PM
I honestly don't know much about Martial Arts. But from all accounts and everything I've ever heard, the disciplines are very strict and supposed to be used for self defense purposes only. Unless, of course, you're a professional fighter.

It just seems a bit odd to me that a trainer with a black belt in BJJ would go out of his way to start fights with people just to showcase his skills.

Perhaps that is a stereotype, but in my City there are plenty of dojos and I don't see trainers running around town picking fights with people on the fly. Or maybe I'm just not paying close enough attention? :lol1:

Again, I don't disagree about how things ought to be and most serious martial arts practitioners are rather humble and tend not to go out of their way to pick fights; however, people are people after all. If a guy has mastered a martial art to the extent that he can instruct, and he also likes to pick fights, I do not see it as paradoxical. Really, I see it as a case of a person simply doing what they will.

I'm not meaning to get too philosophical here, but the notion that martial artists are humble and avoid trouble is indeed a major stereotype.

Virgil Caine
09-25-2008, 11:46 PM
Not to beat a dead horse, but I would say the notion that:

from all accounts and everything I've ever heard, the disciplines are very strict and supposed to be used for self defense purposes only.

essentially embodies the stereotype which I was referring to.

ßringer
09-25-2008, 11:46 PM
Again, I don't disagree about how things ought to be and most serious martial arts practitioners are rather humble and tend not to go out of their way to pick fights; however, people are people after all. If a guy has mastered a martial art to the extent that he can instruct, and he also likes to pick fights, I do not see it as paradoxical. Really, I see it as a case of a person simply doing what they will.

I'm not meaning to get too philosophical here, but the notion that martial artists are humble and avoid trouble is indeed a major stereotype.

I just find it irresponsible, and childlike. Maybe it's just me. But I don't hear about great boxing trainers like Ignacio Beristain, or Floyd Mayweather Sr. running down dudes on the street to demonstrate their skills.

But I agree, as you say, it's a case of a person simply doing what they will. I'm sure some boxing trainers have done the same in the past.

I just think the gym is the place for learning such skills. Poor dudes on the street don't have any way to defend that type of attack. :lol1:

Virgil Caine
09-25-2008, 11:55 PM
I just find it irresponsible, and childlike. Maybe it's just me. But I don't hear about great boxing trainers like Ignacio Beristain, or Floyd Mayweather Sr. running down dudes on the street to demonstrate their skills.

But I agree, as you say, it's a case of a person simply doing what they will. I'm sure some boxing trainers have done the same in the past.

I just think the gym is the place for learning such skills. Poor dudes on the street don't have any way to defend that type of attack. :lol1:

True ****; but again, things are not as black and white as we as humans tend to think. For instance, what if a person was simply trained in a martial art from an early age and is very proficient? Such a person could be an excellent fighter, but may not necessarily be a good or balanced person. That is just an example, but I would guess there are many thugs who know martial arts (particularly in The Orient).

ßringer
09-26-2008, 12:01 AM
True ****; but again, things are not as black and white as we as humans tend to think. For instance, what if a person was simply trained in a martial art from an early age and is very proficient? Such a person could be an excellent fighter, but may not necessarily be a good or balanced person. That is just an example, but I would guess there are many thugs who know martial arts (particularly in The Orient).

You raise good points as well. I have to say this has been one of the better MMA/boxing debates I've ever had. Scratch that, this is the only good one I've ever had. Typically someone always breaks down and insults whoever doesn't share their views.

Kudos.

Kakutogi-Gumi
09-26-2008, 12:50 AM
People are always quick to simplify the martial arts to priciples like honor and respect. But in the end, it's all fortune cookie nonsense.

It's a great goal to go after, but not everyone does.

Cuauhtémoc1520
09-26-2008, 09:54 AM
I think I speak for 90% of the people from the Mixed Martial Arts Discussion board when I say, "get the **** out." You know who you are, and those of you that I am directing this to, have some dignity and get Mayweather's **** out from your throat.

With that said, the technical aspect. I am going to loosely define a few of the popular aspects of Boxing, Mixed Martial Arts and Kickboxing. I will also loosely define Mixed Martial Arts. I'll site where I am getting some of these quotes/definitions at the end of my post.

Boxing: a combat sport in which two participants, generally of similar weight, fight each other with their fists.

Muay Thai/Kickboxing: refers to the sport of using martial-arts-style kicks and boxing-style punches [Elbows: Thai Boxing] to defeat an opponent in a similar way to that of standard boxing.

Wrestling: is the act of physical engagement between two people in which each wrestler strives to get an advantage over, or control of, the opponent. Physical techniques which embody the style of wrestling are clinching, holding, locking, and leverage.

[Brazilian] Jiu Jitsu: is a martial art and combat sport that focuses on grappling and especially ground fighting with the goal of gaining a dominant position and using joint-locks and chokeholds to force an opponent to submit or be knocked out depending on what submission method is used.

Mixed Martial Arts: is a full contact combat sport that allows a wide variety of fighting techniques, from a mixture of martial arts traditions and non-traditions, to be used in competitions. The rules allow the use of striking and grappling techniques, both while standing and on the ground. Such competitions allow martial artist of different backgrounds to compete. The term may also be used however less correctly to describe hybrid martial arts styles.

[Note: Hmm the definitions get bigger with the more advanced the disciplines become, don't you think? Just a thought.]

Now that you have been further educated and understand some of the aspects of MMA, let's discuss some situations and find out just what makes Mixed Martial Arts fighter more dangerous in a general fight.

Value Tudo, No Rules. The inspiration of modern MMA in The United States. It's common sense that in a typical fight, there are no rules in the street/minimal rules against cheap fighting in the Cage. One of the things you should note is the history of open weight tournaments in Mixed Martial Arts. The realism of a fight that is created by Mixed Martial Arts allows someone significantly lower in weight to defeat an opponent, which results in it being much more closely associated with a street fight than a boxing bout. In layman's terms, Mixed Martial Arts is a more realistic fight than boxing.

Now for the hypothetical:

Professional Heavyweight Boxer vs Professional Heavyweight Mixed Martial Artist.
Almost 100% of the time it is a short fight, not going anywhere past the first round, let alone a minute. The boxer throws some jabs, a big hook, which is ducked. The Mixed Martial Artist scores a take down, gets full mount, the boxer is completely defenseless. The Boxer is either KO'd or Submitted from this position.

Let's discuss the reasons why match ups like this almost always end this way.


The closest a boxer gets to practicing ground work is when they are working on their balance. This leaves them completely vulnerable to a take down
When taken down, a boxer who has been trained in only one aspect of fighting [Hand Striking], has no real way of defending from their back.
Boxers are fighting against an opponent with GRAVITY against them as well. Trying to keep yourself standing and fighting is much harder than dragging someone down and fighting.

Not to mention, a boxer gets beaten nearly every time against a striker who also utilizes other aspects of striking, like kicks and elbows. [Ex: Muay Thai, Karate, Capoeira, Kickboxing] But that is a different subject.

To wrap this post up, I'll just say one more thing. Boxing is one aspect of fighting. It is enhancing a person's hand striking with big gloves, there is no other aspect of a fight involved. To roughly quote Pat Miletich, "If you look at fighting as a tree, Mixed Martial Arts is the entire tree. Boxing is just a small branch of this tree."

I hope this post has helped to further educate some of you people who litter this forum with bull****.

Or, if you are too dense to fathom what I've just said. Here are a couple of videos that prove my point.

Entry Level Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Fighter demolishes Well Schooled Boxer.
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Mediocre Wrestler TKO's a Well Schooled Boxer with ease.
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Thank you for your time.

Siting:

http://www.wikipedia.org/
http://www.youtube.com/

Great post but I think you missed the REAL discussion when it comes to boxing vs MMA.

Let me start by saying I love both but I am a former amateur boxer and teach boxing at a local gym. My love is for boxing but I have watched the UFC since UFC1, no exaggeration.

Boxing vs MMA:

I don't think that the question is who will win in a fight between boxing and MMA. People who pose that question are......well.....IDIOTS. Of course a MMA will beat a boxer most of the time because he/she is schooled in all aaspects of the fight game. A boxer is simply a striker that has perfected his craft using his fists.

The REAL question is, which is more exciting to watch.

When you watch a MMA fight, 9/10 you will see a fight that will end in 2 ways. First, it will be a KO which really doesn't happen a lot. Second, you will see a fight end in tap out due to punches or submission.

The one reason that for me, boxing is a much better sport to watch is because there is drama in boxing that doesn't and will never exist in MMA. For example;

In MMA, if a fighter gets hit hard enough, whether it be from a punch, elbow,kick, whatever, he will go down hurt and the other fighter will finish the fight quickly by jumping on him and beating on him. Now there are occasions where a hurt fighter can hold on long enough to recover and make a great fight but that rarely happens in MMA. Usualy once a fighter is hurt bad enough, fight is over very quickly.

In boxing though, you have more possibility for drama because of the way the rounds and rules are structured. The fact that the standing 8 is in effect, gives a fighter time to recover if he is stunned with a big punch. also, the fact their there are 10-12 3 minute rounds, cause for a more ebb and flow of the fight. It's not 2 or 3 5 minute rounds where fighters in MMA go after the win constantly by trying to submit or "ground and pound" their opponent.

In MMA there will never be the great classic battles like there have been in boxing. Fights like Gatti vs Ward, R. Marquez vs Vasquez, Leonard vs Hearns and the list goes on for close to 100 years.

MMA is a fight, boxing is a specialized form of combat involving only the fists.

I enjoy both but boxing to me, because of the structure, has more of a chance to be a great dramatic combat with more plot twists than a spanish soap opera.

MMA is fighting, boxing is the sweet science.

1bad65
09-26-2008, 09:59 AM
My coach/friend has never picked a fight. But if someone gets in his face, he won't back down. There are plenty of idiots down there looking for trouble, and sometimes they run into the wrong guy to start **** with.

Cuauhtémoc1520
09-26-2008, 10:04 AM
My coach/friend has never picked a fight. But if someone gets in his face, he won't back down. There are plenty of idiots down there looking for trouble, and sometimes they run into the wrong guy to start **** with.

Yea but I knew a guy who claimed to be ablack belt in ju-jitsu. He would brag about how bad he was and walk around like he could kick everyone's ass. He belonged to some gym in Miami and then I heard he caught a beat down at some club in Miami....haha. Nothing beats experience. You can't learn to fight in a gym, you have to be able to do it in real life situations.

ßringer
09-26-2008, 10:06 AM
In my opinion a boxing match is much more dramatic than an MMA match. In MMA typically (and this is in my viewing experience only) you end up seeing either a very fast KO (1st round), or a submission in the 2nd or 3rd round.

When an MMA guy goes down, his opponet jumps on him and nearly always forces the stoppage via ground and pound or submission. Very rarely have I seen an MMA guy floored, only to get up and come back with vengeance flooring his opponet. (By floord I mean an actual knockdown, no slipping.)

In boxing the action starts slow typically but builds at a perfect pace. A guy can be knockded on his ass, and get up to knock his opponet on his. In rare occasions it makes history. See Corrales vs. Castillo 1 round 10.

YUHHHHHHH!
09-26-2008, 11:47 AM
In my opinion a boxing match is much more dramatic than an MMA match. In MMA typically (and this is in my viewing experience only) you end up seeing either a very fast KO (1st round), or a submission in the 2nd or 3rd round.

When an MMA guy goes down, his opponet jumps on him and nearly always forces the stoppage via ground and pound or submission. Very rarely have I seen an MMA guy floored, only to get up and come back with vengeance flooring his opponet. (By floord I mean an actual knockdown, no slipping.)

In boxing the action starts slow typically but builds at a perfect pace. A guy can be knockded on his ass, and get up to knock his opponet on his. In rare occasions it makes history. See Corrales vs. Castillo 1 round 10.

Corrales vs Castillo was easily one of the greatest boxing bouts of all time.

Either way, you have to look at it in a realistic way. In an actual fight without rules, when someone gets clipped by a nasty punch, it's usually over and out because they're either stomped out or mounted. In Boxing you get clipped, receive a short period of time to recover, and continue fighting. I think MMA is much closer to a realistic fight in this instance.

With that being said: I'm not trying to disprove you, as comeback victories happen more sparingly in MMA, but for some awesome classic comeback fights you should check out the following:

Nogueira vs Cro Cop
Nogueira vs Bob Sapp
Fedor Emelianenko vs Kazuyuki Fujita

Just a few classics in PRIDE FC. You'll enjoy them if you like comebacks.

1bad65
09-26-2008, 11:49 AM
Yea but I knew a guy who claimed to be ablack belt in ju-jitsu. He would brag about how bad he was and walk around like he could kick everyone's ass. He belonged to some gym in Miami and then I heard he caught a beat down at some club in Miami....haha. Nothing beats experience. You can't learn to fight in a gym, you have to be able to do it in real life situations.

He is a legit Black Belt and a pro fighter. He can fight.

You can learn to fight in a gym. Street fighting ability is not just genetics. You put a trained fighter up against some street tough, I'll bet on the athlete every time.

YUHHHHHHH!
09-26-2008, 11:51 AM
You can learn to fight in a gym. Street fighting ability is not just genetics. You put a trained fighter up against some street tough, I'll bet on the athlete every time.

I definitely see where you're coming from, but sometimes people forget to take into account the heart of the fighter. In any case I'd pick a street fighter with a lot of heart over a robot trained in a gym.

ßringer
09-26-2008, 12:04 PM
Corrales vs Castillo was easily one of the greatest boxing bouts of all time.

Either way, you have to look at it in a realistic way. In an actual fight without rules, when someone gets clipped by a nasty punch, it's usually over and out because they're either stomped out or mounted. In Boxing you get clipped, receive a short period of time to recover, and continue fighting. I think MMA is much closer to a realistic fight in this instance.

With that being said: I'm not trying to disprove you, as comeback victories happen more sparingly in MMA, but for some awesome classic comeback fights you should check out the following:

Nogueira vs Cro Cop
Nogueira vs Bob Sapp
Fedor Emelianenko vs Kazuyuki Fujita

Just a few classics in PRIDE FC. You'll enjoy them if you like comebacks.

The bolded paragraph is absolutely true. But it doesn't always add up to high excitement, it is, like most real fights, usually over before you know it.

And I'll check those out. I'm a huge comeback fan. Who the hell isn't? Pulling off the impossible never gets old.

Cuauhtémoc1520
09-26-2008, 12:05 PM
He is a legit Black Belt and a pro fighter. He can fight.

You can learn to fight in a gym. Street fighting ability is not just genetics. You put a trained fighter up against some street tough, I'll bet on the athlete every time.

I really don't know what exactly happened but I heard he stepped to some guys you probably shouldn't be messing with and he was KO'd. True story. My point is that in a controled enviroment like a ring or a gym, yes I would put money on a trained fighter, no doubt. On the streets though, anything goes and just because you are ablack belt in ju-jitsu or are a good boxer, doesn't mean you won't get hurt on the street.

Sometimes being a trained fighter like that, you have a bullseye on your back on the street.

I think I saw a video or Don Frye getting his ass beat ins ome hotel lobby by some regualr dude.

YUHHHHHHH!
09-26-2008, 12:10 PM
And I'll check those out. I'm a huge comeback fan. Who the hell isn't? Pulling off the impossible never gets old.

Then you will really like Fedor Emelianenko vs Kazuyuki Fujita. Especially if you like stand up fighting. It shows why Fedor is the greatest of all time.

ßringer
09-26-2008, 12:22 PM
Then you will really like Fedor Emelianenko vs Kazuyuki Fujita. Especially if you like stand up fighting. It shows why Fedor is the greatest of all time.

Damn, that was a good fight. That choke Fedor slapped on him to win was brutal, he just up and lifted the poor prick right off the mat with it before dropping back and sinking it in.

Hell I even liked the Capcom logos on the mat, Capcom makes some killer ****ing games.

Thanks for pointing this one out to me. I'm looking for the other 2 now.

YUHHHHHHH!
09-26-2008, 02:05 PM
Damn, that was a good fight. That choke Fedor slapped on him to win was brutal, he just up and lifted the poor prick right off the mat with it before dropping back and sinking it in.

Hell I even liked the Capcom logos on the mat, Capcom makes some killer ****ing games.

Thanks for pointing this one out to me. I'm looking for the other 2 now.

You'll like Nogueira's fights. Basically all of his are comebacks. He outlasts his opponent no matter what they do to him.

Check
09-26-2008, 08:23 PM
And with all this being said MMA is still boring as hell. Oh yeah, two men still lay on each other.

Kakutogi-Gumi
09-26-2008, 08:29 PM
And with all this being said MMA is still boring as hell. Oh yeah, two men still lay on each other.

*shrug*

Matter of opinion.

You see two guys laying on top each other. I see twister guard with an armbar setup.

sunthunder
09-26-2008, 09:36 PM
You'll like Nogueira's fights. Basically all of his are comebacks. He outlasts his opponent no matter what they do to him.

I wouldn't say all his fights are comebacks, just some of his most notable ones:

vs Crocop
vs Sapp
vs Sylvia

You could argue the third Herring fight was a comeback, but Nogueira was winning pretty much all of that fight except for the one kick Herring landed.

Overall, looking at his wins, he outright beats his opponents more than he makes comebacks:

vs Barnett
vs Kharitonov
vs Herring x 2
vs Schilt
vs Werdum
vs Coleman
vs Goodridge
vs Henderson

Virgil Caine
09-27-2008, 04:06 AM
Great post but I think you missed the REAL discussion when it comes to boxing vs MMA.

Let me start by saying I love both but I am a former amateur boxer and teach boxing at a local gym. My love is for boxing but I have watched the UFC since UFC1, no exaggeration.

Boxing vs MMA:

I don't think that the question is who will win in a fight between boxing and MMA. People who pose that question are......well.....IDIOTS. Of course a MMA will beat a boxer most of the time because he/she is schooled in all aaspects of the fight game. A boxer is simply a striker that has perfected his craft using his fists.

The REAL question is, which is more exciting to watch.

When you watch a MMA fight, 9/10 you will see a fight that will end in 2 ways. First, it will be a KO which really doesn't happen a lot. Second, you will see a fight end in tap out due to punches or submission.

The one reason that for me, boxing is a much better sport to watch is because there is drama in boxing that doesn't and will never exist in MMA. For example;

In MMA, if a fighter gets hit hard enough, whether it be from a punch, elbow,kick, whatever, he will go down hurt and the other fighter will finish the fight quickly by jumping on him and beating on him. Now there are occasions where a hurt fighter can hold on long enough to recover and make a great fight but that rarely happens in MMA. Usualy once a fighter is hurt bad enough, fight is over very quickly.

In boxing though, you have more possibility for drama because of the way the rounds and rules are structured. The fact that the standing 8 is in effect, gives a fighter time to recover if he is stunned with a big punch. also, the fact their there are 10-12 3 minute rounds, cause for a more ebb and flow of the fight. It's not 2 or 3 5 minute rounds where fighters in MMA go after the win constantly by trying to submit or "ground and pound" their opponent.

In MMA there will never be the great classic battles like there have been in boxing. Fights like Gatti vs Ward, R. Marquez vs Vasquez, Leonard vs Hearns and the list goes on for close to 100 years.

MMA is a fight, boxing is a specialized form of combat involving only the fists.

I enjoy both but boxing to me, because of the structure, has more of a chance to be a great dramatic combat with more plot twists than a spanish soap opera.

MMA is fighting, boxing is the sweet science.

I would say you have provided some very good incites, and as an obsessive fan of both sports, I agree with almost all of your post.

Generally speaking, I do find boxing to be a more interesting sport to follow, while I find that MMA provides more bang for the buck.

However, MMA has some quite interesting aspects as well. For one thing, MMA is still developing at a rapid pace, and their are constantly new and innovative stylists rising through the ranks. Second, while I am not really a fan of ground and pound, a good grappler can in fact be very interesting to watch. I would say that Kazushi Sakuraba (in his day, of course) embodies this more then any other fighter I can think of. Thirdly, given the broader range of possible ways for a fight to play out, there is room for fighters to be incredibly artistic and innovative. Fighters such as Genki Sudo and Kazushi Sakuraba (again) come to mind (I welcome anyone to expand my lists).

Cuauhtémoc1520
09-30-2008, 01:59 PM
I would say you have provided some very good incites, and as an obsessive fan of both sports, I agree with almost all of your post.

Generally speaking, I do find boxing to be a more interesting sport to follow, while I find that MMA provides more bang for the buck.

However, MMA has some quite interesting aspects as well. For one thing, MMA is still developing at a rapid pace, and their are constantly new and innovative stylists rising through the ranks. Second, while I am not really a fan of ground and pound, a good grappler can in fact be very interesting to watch. I would say that Kazushi Sakuraba (in his day, of course) embodies this more then any other fighter I can think of. Thirdly, given the broader range of possible ways for a fight to play out, there is room for fighters to be incredibly artistic and innovative. Fighters such as Genki Sudo and Kazushi Sakuraba (again) come to mind (I welcome anyone to expand my lists).

Absolutely and that's the main reason I like MMA so much because it gives me the true feel of what a real fight against two skilled fighters would be like.

I just think the way boxing is set up it gives you more opportunity for drama in a fight. Just the way boxing is set up allows for that but I do think that MMA is growing very rapidly and has appealed to a lot more people than first thought.

Will it make the main stream like boxing, that remains to be seen.

Virgil Caine
09-30-2008, 04:24 PM
Absolutely and that's the main reason I like MMA so much because it gives me the true feel of what a real fight against two skilled fighters would be like.

I just think the way boxing is set up it gives you more opportunity for drama in a fight. Just the way boxing is set up allows for that but I do think that MMA is growing very rapidly and has appealed to a lot more people than first thought.

Will it make the main stream like boxing, that remains to be seen.

You're certainly right about the drama factor, though I would say that MMA and boxing is a case of "apples and oranges," really. I have watched boxing matches that literally put me to sleep (i.e., Holyfield-Ibragimav, granted it was quite late where I watched), though few (if any) things in all of professional sports can match the drama and excitement of Corrales-Castillo or Hagler-Hearns. Essentially, MMA and boxing are both excellent in their own right imo. I prefer to leave it at that.

pugilistfan
09-30-2008, 09:21 PM
I think I speak for 90% of the people from the Mixed Martial Arts Discussion board when I say, "get the **** out." You know who you are, and those of you that I am directing this to, have some dignity and get Mayweather's **** out from your throat.

With that said, the technical aspect. I am going to loosely define a few of the popular aspects of Boxing, Mixed Martial Arts and Kickboxing. I will also loosely define Mixed Martial Arts. I'll site where I am getting some of these quotes/definitions at the end of my post.

Boxing: a combat sport in which two participants, generally of similar weight, fight each other with their fists.

Muay Thai/Kickboxing: refers to the sport of using martial-arts-style kicks and boxing-style punches [Elbows: Thai Boxing] to defeat an opponent in a similar way to that of standard boxing.

Wrestling: is the act of physical engagement between two people in which each wrestler strives to get an advantage over, or control of, the opponent. Physical techniques which embody the style of wrestling are clinching, holding, locking, and leverage.

[Brazilian] Jiu Jitsu: is a martial art and combat sport that focuses on grappling and especially ground fighting with the goal of gaining a dominant position and using joint-locks and chokeholds to force an opponent to submit or be knocked out depending on what submission method is used.

Mixed Martial Arts: is a full contact combat sport that allows a wide variety of fighting techniques, from a mixture of martial arts traditions and non-traditions, to be used in competitions. The rules allow the use of striking and grappling techniques, both while standing and on the ground. Such competitions allow martial artist of different backgrounds to compete. The term may also be used however less correctly to describe hybrid martial arts styles.

[Note: Hmm the definitions get bigger with the more advanced the disciplines become, don't you think? Just a thought.]

Now that you have been further educated and understand some of the aspects of MMA, let's discuss some situations and find out just what makes Mixed Martial Arts fighter more dangerous in a general fight.

Value Tudo, No Rules. The inspiration of modern MMA in The United States. It's common sense that in a typical fight, there are no rules in the street/minimal rules against cheap fighting in the Cage. One of the things you should note is the history of open weight tournaments in Mixed Martial Arts. The realism of a fight that is created by Mixed Martial Arts allows someone significantly lower in weight to defeat an opponent, which results in it being much more closely associated with a street fight than a boxing bout. In layman's terms, Mixed Martial Arts is a more realistic fight than boxing.

Now for the hypothetical:

Professional Heavyweight Boxer vs Professional Heavyweight Mixed Martial Artist.
Almost 100% of the time it is a short fight, not going anywhere past the first round, let alone a minute. The boxer throws some jabs, a big hook, which is ducked. The Mixed Martial Artist scores a take down, gets full mount, the boxer is completely defenseless. The Boxer is either KO'd or Submitted from this position.

Let's discuss the reasons why match ups like this almost always end this way.


The closest a boxer gets to practicing ground work is when they are working on their balance. This leaves them completely vulnerable to a take down
When taken down, a boxer who has been trained in only one aspect of fighting [Hand Striking], has no real way of defending from their back.
Boxers are fighting against an opponent with GRAVITY against them as well. Trying to keep yourself standing and fighting is much harder than dragging someone down and fighting.

Not to mention, a boxer gets beaten nearly every time against a striker who also utilizes other aspects of striking, like kicks and elbows. [Ex: Muay Thai, Karate, Capoeira, Kickboxing] But that is a different subject.

To wrap this post up, I'll just say one more thing. Boxing is one aspect of fighting. It is enhancing a person's hand striking with big gloves, there is no other aspect of a fight involved. To roughly quote Pat Miletich, "If you look at fighting as a tree, Mixed Martial Arts is the entire tree. Boxing is just a small branch of this tree."

I hope this post has helped to further educate some of you people who litter this forum with bull****.

Or, if you are too dense to fathom what I've just said. Here are a couple of videos that prove my point.

Entry Level Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Fighter demolishes Well Schooled Boxer.
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Mediocre Wrestler TKO's a Well Schooled Boxer with ease.
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Thank you for your time.

Siting:

http://www.wikipedia.org/
http://www.youtube.com/


This is by far the dumbest post I have ever seen. I skimmed through your post and it aggravated me to no end.

First of all MMA is not REAL FIGHTING.

If it was real fighting Tito Ortiz would have beat Lee Murray in a REAL FIGHT. Instead Lee Murray KO'd the living crap out Ortiz and as a result Ortiz spent months trying to setup a fight between him and Murray. Oleg Tekterov got KO'd by James Toney, Don Frye got his ass kicked by a 55 year old boxing trainer named Sonny Westbrook. Hell, football player Bob Sapp was overpowering Big Nog for 5 minutes. If that was a real fight, Big Nogs remains are splattered across the pavement. And Sapp had literally no fighting experience but that didnt stop him from laying a beating on the UFC champion.

You think if a boxer threw hooks, uppercuts, jabs that an MMA fighter who has accomplished absolutely NOTHING in the sport of BOXING can DUCK those shots. HAHAHA. Let me guess, just like Liddell ducked those shots from wrestler Rashad Evans or like Sylvia ducked those shots from Fedor?

A boxer is going to win the exchange 99% of the time because they have trained YEARS AND YEARS in hand to hand combat. For decades they have been slipping, parrying, bobbing, weaving, ducking, avoiding, blocking punches.

The MMA striking is amatuerish compared to that of striking sports like Muay Thai, Boxing. In fact, MMA striking is incredibly simple and incorporates dumbed down versions of the various striking arts. It is why MMA fighters even the best strikers get completely embarassed when they spar average to above average pro boxers. Dont believe me, look at the Hieron/Byrd clip on youtube. Or the AA/oquendo clip.

Thanks for those youtube clips FEATURING NO NAME BOXERS with no athleticism. I guess BJJ is useless considering 4 black belts got submitted by fighters with lesser belts at I believe UFC 86. I guess BJJ is also useless considering HIGH SCHOOL WRESTLER Roger Huerta dominated BJJ black belt and Mundial Champion Alberto Crane. Crane also got tooled by Clay Guida. Lesnar brings in his wrestling background and dominates a 10 year MMA veteran who is arguably ranked in the top 10 in the world in his division. You know that Fedor has never trained a day in his life in BJJ and yet hes submitting black belts left and right.

MMA is NOT fighting. Because many of the aspects used to win MMA fights are completely IMPRACTICAL in a REAL FIGHT. Dont believe me? Ask Couture, Gracie, Penn who ALL BELIEVE THAT STRIKING IS MORE PRACTICAL FORM OF FIGHTING IN A REAL LIFE SITUATION. Try taking someone down on rock hard pavement and see how DIFFERENT it is from rolling on nice comfortable mats in your luxurious MMA gym. Not to mention, last time I checked BJJ, wrestling doesnt defend against eye gouging, fish hooks, rabbit punching, groin strikes etc. Oh and also, you better hope the guy you take down doesnt have any friends because you're more than likely going to get a few pool cues shoved up your behind and a few face stomps. In a REAL FIGHT you want to be standing because it leaves you with more options. I'd rather have Haye by side than some BJJ black belt who won a few local tournaments.

pugilistfan
09-30-2008, 09:27 PM
MMA is NOT fighting because its a SPORT with predetermined opponents, rules, judges, refs, gameplans, crowds, salaries, equipment, environments. If you honestly think that because you are a capable ground fighter WHICH SOME MMA FIGHTERS ARENT that you can beat a boxer in a REAL FIGHT I feel sorry for you. There are so many one-dimensional fighters in MMA its unreal and people are trying to convince me that these guys are WELL-ROUNDED or you have to be WELL-ROUNDED to succeed in MMA? What a joke. Houston Alexander, Keith Jardine, Wanderlei Silva, Tim Sylvia, Chuck Liddell have absolutely no ground game. Liddell has won all his fights due to great TD defense and MEDIOCRE boxing. Having great TD defense doesnt make you a wrestler. He has no BJJ. In fact in his 1st Rampage fight he showed absolutely no defense from half guard. You know that Silva was given a black belt for defeating Sakuraba? You know that Helio Gracie thinks Silvas black belt is NOT legit. Thats the problem, in order to legitimize the skills in MMA they ended up handing out black belts to fighters who simply havent earned one. And than there are a TON of guys who are great ground fighters and yet mediocre strikers. Sherk, Guida, Aoki, Shields, Hughes, Koscheck, Lutter, Lindland, lesnar and MANY MORE.

Than you say boxers would lose to a KARATE practitioner? HAHAHAHAHAHA. Karate? A martial art that emphasizes point sparring and not ACTUAL LIVE SPARRING. Are you mental? Secondly, a boxer won multiple fights at K-1 Max last year defeating Muay Thai fighters. Botha has wins over some very credible K-1 fighters and Botha is WASHED UP, OLD and punch drunk. Many Dutch kickboxers have amatuer boxing backgrounds and incorporate ALOT of boxing into their style. The fights that you may have seen a boxer lose like the arthur Williams fight is an OLD, WASHED UP FIGHTER fighting a highly credible Russian Muay Thai kickboxer. Phillips fought Masato whos arguably a top 5 striker in the WORLD. Lastly, there was so much corruption that it wouldnt surprise me one bit to hear that those fights were fixed. Pride, K-1 are all crooked organizations. Wouldnt surprise me that old boxers who cant get any meaningful fights in their respective sports would show up for some nice easy cash to take a dive in the 1st round. Because your theory that boxers lose to kickboxers simply has no facts behind it. Spencer Fisher a fighter with boxing background whooped Canadian Champion Sam Stout.

Many MMA fighters primarily wrestlers OPT for boxing as opposed to MUAY THAI because they DONT WANT TO END UP ON THEIR BACK. Thats right Muay Thai NOT boxing leaves you more vulnerable for takedowns. Couture, Rampage, Liddell, Sherk, Guida, Huerta ALL INCORPORATE BOXING not MUAY Thai because they arent good fighting off their back. And boxing leaves them in MUCH better position to defend against takedowns than a traditional Muay Thai stance. Neither stance is ideal but if you want ideal than you would go into a wrestling stance and unless you want to get your block knocked off a wrestling stance is not advised.

So please get off your MMA pedestal and realize that they are ALL sports. And please save your Miletich tree references for another occasion. Because im sick of it. The fact that Houston Alexander was able to win so many fights against top notch competition with such a limited boxing background due to creative matchmaking shows that maybe MMA is not all its cracked up to be. The fact that you can hide a fighters weaknesses by putting him up against STRIKERS and not have to showcase his PISS POOR GROUND SKILLS is a testament that maybe KICKBOXERS, BOXERS can compete and succeed in MMA. In fact arent Crocop, Hunt, Davis, Lytle competing and succeeding in MMA with their ONE-DIMENSIONAL backgrounds. And didnt Crocop, Hunt give Fedor very TOUGH FIGHTS according to Fedor. And isnt Lytle, Davis two top 10-15 WW's in the world?

HAHA, and I mentioned it earlier. Way to show 2 clips between RIDICULOUS unskilled boxers who ive NEVER HEARD of losing to BJJ practitioners. The fact that a guy like Kimbo Slice with absolutely no boxing pedigree can win all of his fights albeit against mediocre opponents using BOXING should have put an end to your stupid theory.

Your post was just absolutely pointless and was simply done to piss off a whole lot of people and create controversy. Well congratulations you did. I guarantee you, you have never done any form of fighting in your life.

pugilistfan
09-30-2008, 09:32 PM
I never compared it to a Street fight, I was quoting a nuthugger who compared it to a street fight. If you're going to try and dis me, you should at least get your facts straight. I said in a real sanctioned fight.

If you read my post, I pointed out some of the popular Martial Arts, I never said that I would list all of them. Ex: Krav Magra, Sambo, Judo, etc. There's thousands of different Martial Arts I could have listed. I was just using a few to make a point.

Look at the fighters in your sig. Fedor was throwing punches from his hips and Sylvia had no idea what was going on. It was as if he never stepped foot in a boxing gym in his life. And you think that if a BOXER with extensive amatuer and pro backgrounds threw punches which would be 5x faster than an MMA fighter that the MMA fighter would have the reflexes to DUCK and avoid the onslaught? HAHAHAHAHA.

Maybe Pat "Tree Branches" Miletich should have shoved Sylvia into you know a...Boxing gym to learn BASIC head movement and defense.

pugilistfan
09-30-2008, 09:49 PM
I guarantee you the MMA fighter wins more than a boxer. It's not 50/50. A Mixed Martial Arts fighter trains in all aspects. A boxer gets hit in the liver, he crumbles and gets wrecked on his back. An MMA fighter gets hit in the liver, and submits the boxer off of his back.

It's all about the branching. Boxing is one Branch, MMA is all branches.



It wasn't directed at you man. I laughed really hard at that picture in your sig by the way, haha.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH.

Absolutely ridiculous. Do you even know what you're saying? It is pretty damn close to 50/50 and it may even be tilted in the boxers favour considering ALL REAL FIGHTS start on its feet and the ground surface simply may not be tailored to ground fighting or it is not practical to hit the ground ie. risk of getting attacked by others. Real fighting is completely different from fighting for sport like MMA, Boxing etc. There are things you have to think about that you dont have to think about in combat sports. And sometimes in fact most of the time you want to be standing because it LEAVES YOU WITH MORE OPTIONS. That is why its a MORE PRACTICAL FORM OF FIGHTING in REAL LIFE.

An MMA fighter gets hit in the liver and he crumbles, rolls around on the ground and tries to recover. Meanwhile, the boxer proceeds to kick and punch the crap out of the MMA fighter or the fight is just broken up.

Sorry but an MMA fighter is not going to submit a boxer from his back after getting hit with a clean body shot. Not to mention you're implying that an MMA fighter has the ability to do so which is FALSE. Lesnar couldnt even submit Herring for 15 minutes despite HAVING HIS BACK THE WHOLE FIGHT. HAHAHHA. Herring was curled up in the fetal position and Lesnar couldnt do crap. HAHA. So I doubt Lesnar or many other fighters for that matter can pull a submission OFF THEIR BACK while being brutally hurt FROM A BODY SHOT. You ever see DLH/Hopkins, Castillo/Hatton. Thats what a perfectly placed body shot can do to a fighter. Id imagine it would be even worse without 8oz gloves.

Reverse the situation. A boxer gets hit with a body shot (which is MORE UNLIKELY seeing as how boxers are trained to avoid and block body shots as its an instrumental part of the sport not to mention superior footwork as opposed to the predictability of MMA striking which incorporates alot of HEAD HUNTING and very little variety) than he will crumble according to you and the MMA will proceed to beat up on the boxer and the fight will get broken up.

Congratulations we've established that these fighters are HUMAN and when HURT BADLY they are vulnerable and defenseless on the ground.

CONGRATULATIONS.

mrpain81
09-30-2008, 10:20 PM
Pugilistfan lays the smack down again..

Spare Moody
09-30-2008, 10:59 PM
whoa.......

MetalVomit
09-30-2008, 11:36 PM
whoa.......

my thoughts exactly. thread starter just got shat upon.

pugilistfan
10-01-2008, 12:38 AM
Pugilistfan lays the smack down again..

Thank you sir.

Virgil Caine
10-01-2008, 06:08 AM
Pugilistfan lays the smack down again..

Pugilistfan gave what was clearly a coherent and well-thought-out response; however, his posts contain a number of inaccuracies which should be brought to light:

First of all MMA is not REAL FIGHTING.
If it was real fighting Tito Ortiz would have beat Lee Murray in a REAL FIGHT.
Lee Murray was a very good MMA fighter in his own right. Pat Militech is on record that Murray would've been a world champ had he stayed in the sport and not got into legal trouble.

You think if a boxer threw hooks, uppercuts, jabs that an MMA fighter who has accomplished absolutely NOTHING in the sport of BOXING can DUCK those shots.
Yes, I do. I have seen many fights where a guy throws a punch, only to have his opponent duck under it with a quick wrestling shot and take it to the ground. Throwing a hard punch leaves you very vulnerable to being taken down.

You know that Fedor has never trained a day in his life in BJJ and yet hes submitting black belts left and right.
While it may be true that Fedor hasn't trained in Jujitsu (though I highly doubt it), he has in fact trained from an early age at Sambo and Judo, which are both excellent grappling arts. Hence, he has clearly been well schooled in the submission game (which is why he obviously is a consument professional at the art of ground fighting).

Houston Alexander, Keith Jardine, Wanderlei Silva, Tim Sylvia, Chuck Liddell have absolutely no ground game.
Wanderlei Silva is a BJJ black belt; Chuck Liddell was a division 1 wrestler. Nonetheless, both guys are excellent strikers as well, which also happens to be their bread and butter.

Liddell has won all his fights due to great TD defense and MEDIOCRE boxing. Having great TD defense doesnt make you a wrestler.
See last comment.

A martial art that emphasizes point sparring and not ACTUAL LIVE SPARRING. Than you say boxers would lose to a KARATE practitioner? HAHAHAHAHAHA. Karate?
Point sparring is only one form of karate competition.

Couture, Rampage, Liddell, Sherk, Guida, Huerta ALL INCORPORATE BOXING not MUAY Thai because they arent good fighting off their back.
Have they actually stated that this is so? Or are you simply conjecturing it?

I myself would conjecture that they train in Muay Thai as well as boxing (for instance, when Couture knocked Sylvia down, it was set up by a left leg kick).

And boxing leaves them in MUCH better position to defend against takedowns than a traditional Muay Thai stance. Neither stance is ideal but if you want ideal than you would go into a wrestling stance and unless you want to get your block knocked off a wrestling stance is not advised.
I would say that most successful strikers utilize more of an 'MMA stance,' which leaves them able to strike and go for/defend against takedowns at the same time. In fact, many of the more successful MMA strikers constantly utilize feints and fake shots to keep their opponents off guard. To say that successful MMA strikers use a boxing stance is simply erroneous, as the boxing stance is in fact very vulnerable to takedowns (due to the narrow stance and fancy footwork).

And didnt Crocop, Hunt give Fedor very TOUGH FIGHTS according to Fedor.
Crocop, though past his prime, was a very formidable MMA fighter in his day. As for Hunt, styles make fights and Hunt is a giant of a man and an accomplished kickboxer. He was a stern test for Fedor, which Fedor past with flying colors.

The fact that a guy like Kimbo Slice with absolutely no boxing pedigree can win all of his fights albeit against mediocre opponents using BOXING should have put an end to your stupid theory.
Kimbo would be KO'd or subbed in 1 round by any fighter who does not drive a taxi for his day job. The Thompson fight exposed this.

Lesnar couldnt even submit Herring for 15 minutes despite HAVING HIS BACK THE WHOLE FIGHT.
Wrestlers are not trained in submissions. Lesnar is a horrible example of an MMA submission artist.

So I doubt Lesnar or many other fighters for that matter can pull a submission OFF THEIR BACK while being brutally hurt FROM A BODY SHOT.
I have seen a number of fights where a guy is dropped by a solid strike, only to submit his overly zealous opponent from his back seconds later. This is a fairly common outcome, and something which many MMA fighters are surely prepared for. And again, Lesnar is among the worst examples of an MMA submission artist you could provide.

boxers are trained to avoid and block body shots as its an instrumental part of the sport not to mention superior footwork as opposed to the predictability of MMA striking which incorporates alot of HEAD HUNTING and very little variety
This is because everyone is a KO artist in MMA. With the small gloves, it often takes only one solid shot to lay a guy out, which simply changes the dynamics of the striking game. Often times, a slick boxer will get KO'd by a solid MMA striker when they trade, simply because pitter patter boxing is not very suited for MMA (see, Brawler Charles Bennett vs Boxer KJ Noons).

Virgil Caine
10-01-2008, 06:33 AM
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Noons was clearly trying to box his ass (as you can see, it didn't work out too well for him).

1bad65
10-01-2008, 10:05 AM
Oleg Tekterov got KO'd by James Toney,

Do what?! This is news to me.

I know Toney claimed to have KO'd Deion Sanders in high school, but I've never heard this story.

And it's spelled Taktarov btw.

YUHHHHHHH!
10-01-2008, 12:42 PM
Sorry, I've been inactive for the last day and unable to respond.

As for this "puglist" fellow coming in here and "Laying the smackdown" upon me, I'm not so sure. I mean, if typing pages of inaccuracies to flex my boxing E-Peen is laying a smackdown, **** I should start typing with my face as well.

To put it in layman's terms so that you may understand, sir Puglist. I never compared Street fighting to MMA. I merely stated, and put a solid foundation of reasoning behind why I believe it is closer to a real fight than boxing. Simply because there are more options, kind of like in a real fight.

I see now why you have such a fanboy following on this forum, you're very quick to nerdrage on someone trying to have an intelligent discussion, aren't you? Typical boxing fanboy spewing bull**** out of his mouth IMO. Comparing the Lee Murray and Tito Ortiz brawl to a boxer vs wrestling situation. That's almost funny, Lee Murray was an MMA fighter. At least last I checked?

In response to your critiquing of my signature: I would love to see a heavyweight boxer bob and weave after getting tagged with a Russian haymaker behind the ear. Lean up on the ropes and get TKO'd anyone? **** happens.

PS: I would take Renzo Gracie over David Haye in a street fight any day of the week. You are an idiot.

1bad65
10-01-2008, 01:48 PM
I would love to see a heavyweight boxer bob and weave after getting tagged with a Russian haymaker behind the ear.

You are an idiot.

He is an idiot.

One reason MMA striking is different is because there are more legal attacks. You have to have different footwork. It you bob and weave, you can get kneed. If you clinch, you are not separated.

There are alot of differences. But you are correct that MMA is closer to a real fight than boxing.

Cuauhtémoc1520
10-01-2008, 02:54 PM
Sorry, I've been inactive for the last day and unable to respond.

As for this "puglist" fellow coming in here and "Laying the smackdown" upon me, I'm not so sure. I mean, if typing pages of inaccuracies to flex my boxing E-Peen is laying a smackdown, **** I should start typing with my face as well.

To put it in layman's terms so that you may understand, sir Puglist. I never compared Street fighting to MMA. I merely stated, and put a solid foundation of reasoning behind why I believe it is closer to a real fight than boxing. Simply because there are more options, kind of like in a real fight.

I see now why you have such a fanboy following on this forum, you're very quick to nerdrage on someone trying to have an intelligent discussion, aren't you? Typical boxing fanboy spewing bull**** out of his mouth IMO. Comparing the Lee Murray and Tito Ortiz brawl to a boxer vs wrestling situation. That's almost funny, Lee Murray was an MMA fighter. At least last I checked?

In response to your critiquing of my signature: I would love to see a heavyweight boxer bob and weave after getting tagged with a Russian haymaker behind the ear. Lean up on the ropes and get TKO'd anyone? **** happens.

PS: I would take Renzo Gracie over David Haye in a street fight any day of the week. You are an idiot.

Yes but I think you missed his main point that a boxer for some reason wouldn't do well vs an MMA fighter in a street fight. I disagree and agree with him simply because STRIKING will always be the most effective attack in a street fight where there are no rules.

The question has been posed a million times about how Mike Tyson would do in MMA for example (prime Mike Tyson).

While I agree that Mike would get beaten if the fight ended up on the ground but you start standing up and he would at least have a punchers chance. One hit from a Mike Tyson shot, even blocked, could do serious damage and even break your forearm or ribs.

In a boxing match against Mike, well we have seen what happens then.

I just think that both styles are dangerous and just because an MMA fighter is skilled in ground fighting, doesn't mean he would have a huge advantage over a boxer in a STREET FIGHT.

Also, there's no substitute for experience either. A lot if not most of these boxers come from bad backgrounds and neighborhoods where fighting was an every day part of their life. It's much different when you are confronted with a man that wants to hurt you and there is no rules, no mat, no ref to stop it in case it gets out of hand.

I follow what Bruce Lee said in his book "Jeet Kune Do" where he explained that one style is not better than the other. It's the fighter's ability to adapt that makes him successful. Be like "Water", adapt to your surroundings and do what is necessary to survive. Both boxing and MMA can provide that IMO.

Naz-Fan
10-01-2008, 03:27 PM
This is by far the dumbest post I have ever seen. I skimmed through your post and it aggravated me to no end.

First of all MMA is not REAL FIGHTING.

If it was real fighting Tito Ortiz would have beat Lee Murray in a REAL FIGHT. Instead Lee Murray KO'd the living crap out Ortiz and as a result Ortiz spent months trying to setup a fight between him and Murray.

lmao you stupid ****

Lee murray was an mma fighter. his main style was muay thai kickboxing.

here's a nice video for you of lee murray being submitted by joe doerksen.



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I love boxing. Boxing is a part of mixed martial arts.

The difference is an mma fighter TRAINS in boxing. A boxer ONLY TRAINS IN BOXING. He does not know how to defend takedown attempts or deal with being thrown around by a wrestler.

An MMA fighter is a much more well-rounded fighter. You are ****ing stupid to deny that. MMA is a mix of the greatest martial arts there are. Boxing is not.

Virgil Caine
10-01-2008, 03:37 PM
The question has been posed a million times about how Mike Tyson would do in MMA for example (prime Mike Tyson).

While I agree that Mike would get beaten if the fight ended up on the ground but you start standing up and he would at least have a punchers chance. One hit from a Mike Tyson shot, even blocked, could do serious damage and even break your forearm or ribs.


If Tyson (prime or not) fought a decent MMA fighter, I feel it is safe to say that 19 times out of 20 the MMA fighter would keep distance, circle, wait for Tyson to attempt to close distance and throw a punch, duck under with a shot, and take him down.

A Mike Tyson who had been well schooled in MMA would probably be another story.

Cuauhtémoc1520
10-01-2008, 04:12 PM
If Tyson (prime or not) fought a decent MMA fighter, I feel it is safe to say that 19 times out of 20 the MMA fighter would keep distance, circle, wait for Tyson to attempt to close distance and throw a punch, duck under with a shot, and take him down.

A Mike Tyson who had been well schooled in MMA would probably be another story.

Yea but you make it sound as if ducking a Tyson punch is that easy. Mike wasn't the brawler people believe him to be, he was a well schooled boxer who was deadly accurate in his prime. I think it would be extremely tough for any fighter of whatever skill to just "duck" a punch from a boxer of this caliber.

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Watch his speed and lateral movement.

1bad65
10-01-2008, 04:37 PM
Shooting in on a guy who only uses his hands is not too hard. Especially a short guy. You see, they have to get in close to hit you. If they are that close, it's an easy shot.

Two never guys at my gym have boxing experience. They have been doing MMA for a few months now. I just sparred MMA with them last week. When I stood with them, I usually got the worst of it. But I only shot on both of them once. Both times I landed the takedown easily. And I'm not a very good wrestler. I did just that, I waited til they came in hard and ducked down and shot for a double-leg. It's MMA 101.

And mind you, they both used kicks as well. They know how to sprawl. So they are ahead of the average boxer.

Virgil Caine
10-01-2008, 05:33 PM
Yea but you make it sound as if ducking a Tyson punch is that easy. Mike wasn't the brawler people believe him to be, he was a well schooled boxer who was deadly accurate in his prime. I think it would be extremely tough for any fighter of whatever skill to just "duck" a punch from a boxer of this caliber.

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Watch his speed and lateral movement.

I'd say that a Tyson trained in MMA would've had a lot of potential in the sport; however the pure boxer Tyson? I just don't see it. There have been high caliber boxers who've fought in MMA. One guy I recall seeing from an early event (wish I knew who) was introduced as a former Cruiserweight Champ who held the record for fastest KO in a championship bout. He spent virtually the entire fight struggling from his back. Matt Skelton fought at Pride 17, and was simply a fish out of water when it came to the clinch/ground game:
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Granted that these 2 are obviously not on the level of prime Tyson, I do feel that they illustrate my point to a large extent.

YUHHHHHHH!
10-01-2008, 08:18 PM
Tyson was a monster. Very fast hands, and great head movement. I can't see anyone touching him in boxing while he was in his prime. Either way, a Mid-Level Jiu Jitsu fighter with basic stand up knowledge beats Mike Tyson with ease in a fight.

Cuauhtémoc1520
10-02-2008, 09:18 AM
Again, we were talking about a street fight. No doubt Tyson would have gotten killed in an MMA ring. I just think in a street fight, Tyson was one punch away from detroying someone.

kaps
10-02-2008, 02:15 PM
I think it comes down to this. In a boxing match, the boxer wins, in a MMA fight, the MMAer wins, and on the street, the guy with the most friends wins...

YUHHHHHHH!
10-02-2008, 02:23 PM
Again, we were talking about a street fight. No doubt Tyson would have gotten killed in an MMA ring. I just think in a street fight, Tyson was one punch away from detroying someone.

Again, put Tyson in a beach fight against a Gracie, both in their primes. Logic says Gracie wins with ease.

pugilistfan
10-02-2008, 04:54 PM
[QUOTE=Organik;4133572]Pugilistfan gave what was clearly a coherent and well-thought-out response; however, his posts contain a number of inaccuracies which should be brought to light:


Lee Murray was a very good MMA fighter in his own right. Pat Militech is on record that Murray would've been a world champ had he stayed in the sport and not got into legal trouble.

- Lee Murray slipped Tito Ortiz's punches and landed a combination to Tito Ortizs head. This according to Pat Miletich himself who was there along with Matt Hughes, Chuck Liddell etc. THIS IS CLASSIC BOXING. ABSOLUTELY NO WRESTLING, BJJ involved.

Yes, I do. I have seen many fights where a guy throws a punch, only to have his opponent duck under it with a quick wrestling shot and take it to the ground. Throwing a hard punch leaves you very vulnerable to being taken down.

- Many fights including elite heavyweight boxers? The point is if the boxer throws a combination and the opponent is in an upright position he will NOT HAVE the reflexes to avoid those shots. Throwing hard punches do not leave you vulnerable to be taken down. NOT AT ALL. Boxers throw very short, crisp, powerful combinations. Ive seen Lucian Bute train in Montreal you'd be surprised how much power an elite boxer can generate with such short, quick punches. With all due respect your hard punch leaves you vulnerable doesnt hold any weight at ALL.

While it may be true that Fedor hasn't trained in Jujitsu (though I highly doubt it), he has in fact trained from an early age at Sambo and Judo, which are both excellent grappling arts. Hence, he has clearly been well schooled in the submission game (which is why he obviously is a consument professional at the art of ground fighting).

- Yes I know hes trained in Sambo which specializes in leg locks, heel hooks etc. AND HE HAS NOT TRAINED BJJ IN HIS LIFE. READ UP ON INTERVIEWS HE CLEARLY SAYS SAMBO IS BETTER AND THAT HE HAS NEVER TRAINED A DAY IN HIS LIFE IN BJJ. The bottom line is, Sambo and BJJ are quite different with very little similarities and hes been able to dominate BJJ practicitioners throughout his career. Judo is apart of Sambo. So no he didnt train in both judo and Sambo. Hes Sambo all the way.

Wanderlei Silva is a BJJ black belt; Chuck Liddell was a division 1 wrestler. Nonetheless, both guys are excellent strikers as well, which also happens to be their bread and butter.

- Division wrestler? You know how many D-1 wrestlers there are in the country. A ton. The bottom line is Liddells wrestling resume isnt impressive. And he hasnt shown effective wrestling in any of his fights other than impressive takedown defense. And in terms of his BJJ, In his 1st fight with Rampage he had NO defense from half guard.

- Silva is not a LEGIT black belt. He does have a black belt but its NOT legit. Look at his Chuck fight when he was on the ground. He looked LOST on his back and nothing materialized. Helio Gracie himself said that Silvas black belt is NOT legit. Sometimes its not what you know but who you know.

- BOTH ARE NOT EXCELLENT STRIKERS. Liddell has shown awful striking and has got KO'd in 2 of his last 4 fights DUE TO HORRIBLE BOXING ABILITY. He committed 2 fundamental boxing sins. Never lead with a body shot, never lead with an uppercut. He did both and got KO'd. He leaves his chin out, hands down and throws wide, telegraphed punches. Silva is not a good striker either. He lost to Chuck who I just mentioned as being a mediocre striker with good power. Silva showed absolutely no head & body movement, threw wide punches, couldnt fight going backwards. Hes not a great striker and especially not an excellent one as you claim.
See last comment.


Point sparring is only one form of karate competition.

- I know. The point is boxing has proven to be more effective than Karate. Machida and GSP are the only 2 fighters who have karate backgrounds and GSP uses ABSOLUTELY NO KARATE in MMA competition. Hes trained with Howard Grant (boxing trainer) who trains world class boxers for 4-5 years. And as a result his boxing has improved immensely. He also trains Muay Thai. Machida has applied SOME concepts from karate into MMA but is far from a karate practitioner. Hes an effective BJJ fighter as well. The bottom line is there is a reason why MMA fighters DONT TRAIN KARATE but train boxing. Because boxing is simply more effective.

Have they actually stated that this is so? Or are you simply conjecturing it?

I myself would conjecture that they train in Muay Thai as well as boxing (for instance, when Couture knocked Sylvia down, it was set up by a left leg kick).

- I'm sure they've trained Muay Thai or kickboxing but primarily for defensive purposes. Penn outboxed Sherk, Couture outboxed Sylvia, Noons outboxed Diaz, Edwards, Arlovski outboxed Rothwell, Rampage outboxed Liddell, Liddell RARELY throws kicks and his background is kickboxing. It must mean something when your background is kickboxing and yet he rarely attempts kicks. He must not be very confident on his BACK. Even, Silva who since he split from his old gym in 2006 has been primarily focusing on his BOXING not his Muay Thai.

- Secondly, if you watch or have participated in Muay Thai you would notice that many MMA fighters dont even know how to check a low kick even the best ie. Rampage.

I would say that most successful strikers utilize more of an 'MMA stance,' which leaves them able to strike and go for/defend against takedowns at the same time. In fact, many of the more successful MMA strikers constantly utilize feints and fake shots to keep their opponents off guard. To say that successful MMA strikers use a boxing stance is simply erroneous, as the boxing stance is in fact very vulnerable to takedowns (due to the narrow stance and fancy footwork).

- I havent seen alot of feints like you have. MMA striking is simple thats the bottom line. Yeah, I never said they use a "boxing" stance. I just said the MMA stance and boxing stance isnt entirely different and boxing stance is more effective than a MT stance especially when it comes to be taken down. There are differences in stance but its not groundbreaking. Just look at Penn, Sylvia etc who employ similar stances to that of a boxer. There really isnt even a "boxing" stance because boxers employ different stances among themselves. Some are upright, some are lower to the ground. And there isnt an MMA stance that allows you to strike and defend takedowns. Thats the point. You have to rely on your wrestling ability or athleticism, reflexes to avoid takedowns not your striking stance. Because no striking stance is ideal to defend against takedowns. But its pretty common knowledge that attempting high, mid and low kicks will leave you more vulnerable to be taken down than a traditional boxing stance.

Crocop, though past his prime, was a very formidable MMA fighter in his day. As for Hunt, styles make fights and Hunt is a giant of a man and an accomplished kickboxer. He was a stern test for Fedor, which Fedor past with flying colors.

- Crocop was as ONE-DIMENSIONAL AS YOU CAN GET. He was a very good MMA fighter. And thats my point. He did so being a kickboxer and nothing else. Fedor beat Hunt but Hunt did almost have a kimura secured. Styles make fights. I know that. It applies to every combat sport. But I dont know how a one-dimensional kickboxer with average athleticism posed much of a threat to the best fighter in MMA.
Kimbo would be KO'd or subbed in 1 round by any fighter who does not drive a taxi for his day job. The Thompson fight exposed this.

- Definitely, the point is he beat Thompson and he crushed Thompson on his feet. And Thompson has been in the game for a LONG TIME. And I wouldnt say Kimbo was boxing. He was punching.

pugilistfan
10-02-2008, 04:54 PM
Wrestlers are not trained in submissions. Lesnar is a horrible example of an MMA submission artist.

- I know that, my point is he said that an MMA fighter would submit a boxer after being dropped by a vicious body shot. HAHA, and that is just ridiculous. The point is that Lesnar who dominated a very good HW in Herring had absolutely no GAME outside of wrestling. So clearly not every MMA fighter can submit someone from his back especially after being seriously hurt from a body shot. And there are plenty of other great MMA fighters without good or even adequate submissions.

I have seen a number of fights where a guy is dropped by a solid strike, only to submit his overly zealous opponent from his back seconds later. This is a fairly common outcome, and something which many MMA fighters are surely prepared for. And again, Lesnar is among the worst examples of an MMA submission artist you could provide.

- Big Nog is one example. The point is its rare, VERY RARE and its in MMA with 4oz gloves and NOT a street fight. Body shots can often be worse than head shot. It takes you much longer to recover.

This is because everyone is a KO artist in MMA. With the small gloves, it often takes only one solid shot to lay a guy out, which simply changes the dynamics of the striking game. Often times, a slick boxer will get KO'd by a solid MMA striker when they trade, simply because pitter patter boxing is not very suited for MMA (see, Brawler Charles Bennett vs Boxer KJ Noons).[/QUOTE]

WHAT? Everybody is KO artist in MMA. You know how many fights go to a decision. Forrest Griffin the LHW champion is a light puncher. Same with alot of fighters. Glove size makes a difference but a VERY SMALL DIFFERENCE. Its not the glove size that cause KO's its the punches you dont see. Thats why you see so many boxers and MMA fighters take CLEAN HARD PUNCHES to the face but get KO'd by a glazing blow thrown from from a weird angle in which they didnt see coming.

Pitter patter boxing? How many times have I seen an MMA fighter flick out a jab that was meant to do no damage at all. Didnt Penn breakdown SHerk from a JAB. Same thing with Sylvia/Noguiera. If you think pitter patter is common theme in boxing I suggest you watch more boxing. The funny part is I see more "pitter patter crap" in MMA than I do in boxing. Look no further than ground fighting. How many lazy love taps are attempted from a ground position? Alot.

When has a slick boxer ever step foot in MMA? NONE. Crazy.

pugilistfan
10-02-2008, 05:28 PM
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Noons was clearly trying to box his ass (as you can see, it didn't work out too well for him).

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=259486&cat=boxer

Thats KJ Noons boxing record. He lost to a fighter with a 5-6 record at the time and it took him 3 rounds to put away a fighter with a 6-21 record.

The ironic part about your post is KJ Noons wasnt even boxing Bennett. He rarely used the techniques that make him effective right now. He used more of a kickboxing style against Bennett. He attempted alot more low kicks, was more upright, stiff in the upper body, lacked fluid head & body movement. He didnt look relaxed in there and rarely let his hands go. The KJ Noons you see today is an entirely different fighter.

Another reason why your post doesnt make much sense is Noons got caught. I have no idea why you would blame the style and not the fighter. Another ironic part about that post is that if anything Bennett is JUST a very orthodox boxer with EXPLOSIVE HANDS and KO power and he defeated Noons with a fast 2 punch combination. So the accomplished local kickboxer lost to a....BOXER in Bennett? That certainly backfired.

I should also bring up the fact that the fight was 2 years ago and Noons was primarily a kickboxer not a BOXER. Within the past 2 years Noons has worked extensively trying to improve his boxing and has even gone on record as saying he would like to one day become a boxing champion. Which we all know will never happen.

And within the past 2 years, Noons crushed Nick Diaz who has some very notable wins on his resume and went the distance with some very proven fighters in the best MMA org in the world in the UFC.

Noons just didnt beat Diaz though, he OUTBOXED him. He used fluid head & body movement, used feints, jabs to setup combinations, he slipped, parryed, avoided, bobbed, weaved, blocked everything that Diaz threw at him. And within those 2 rounds Noons "pitter patter" boxing which you like to refer too made Diazs face look like grinded up burger meat. Noons did the same BOXING to Yves Edwards and KO'd him early in the 1st round. So thats 2 fights in a row where Noons has had to use NOTHING but boxing and some takedown defense.

You were probably quiet when Randleman and GG KO'd Crocop right. I didnt see any this is what happens when you use KICKBOXING in MMA. Crocop got CAUGHT. Hell, GSP got caught against MATT FREAKING SERRA.

The bottom line is Noons is a VERY effective boxer and now uses more boxing than anything else. Just like BJ Penn, Couture, Rampage, Silva and many other fighters who are currently or at one time holding belts. When Penn beat Sherk it was classic boxing. And it boxing at its simplest form. Penn used a jab and some head & body movement to beat Sherk.

And Noons isnt even a GOOD boxer in the boxing world. Hes just some record padder fighting in high school gyms in the boxing world. There are thousands of KJ Noons in boxing. But there are only a few elite boxers.

So again, this example didnt prove much of anything.

MetalVomit
10-02-2008, 05:30 PM
I think pugilistfan may be a robot of some sort. ****!

pugilistfan
10-02-2008, 05:45 PM
I think it comes down to this. In a boxing match, the boxer wins, in a MMA fight, the MMAer wins, and on the street, the guy with the most friends wins...

Pretty much. Its just crazy talking about hypothetical situations. I mean we all know a boxer, kickboxer, MMA fighter would destroy 99.9% of the population in a street fight. But its just mind boggling how MMA fans can sit here and dial up impractical or unlikely scenarios as to why an MMA fighter would beat the boxer 99% of the time as if 99% is some accurately tested number. "Oh ya, an MMA fighter would take the boxer down and secure a gogoplata." HAHA as if thats a completely practical street fighting situation.

You look at MMA its almost completely tailored to ground fighting. They fight in a huge octagon, with comfortable ground surfaces and it enables BJJ fighters and wrestlers to do their thing. But in a real fight they might not be so lucky.

We have no idea who would win and thats the point. It all comes down to where the fight takes place in a REAL FIGHT. You can say that MMA fighters are more well-rounded but the skills learned in boxing are more practical in a REAL FIGHTING situation especially moreso than BJJ, wrestling.

An elite MMA striker will NOT beat a boxer in BOXING. Nor would a BOXER beat an elite MMA fighter in MMA because of the added dimension of ground fighting.

BUT, I will say this, a boxer especially an elite athlete would have a MUCH better chance of winning in MMA than the other way around. At least a boxer can win in a certain aspect of MMA. The MMA fighter CANNOT win in boxing because the BOXER will be SO MUCH BETTER and more advanced than the MMA fighter.

Spare Moody
10-02-2008, 06:20 PM
the only ground game i'm going to want to deal with in a real fight is enough control for GNP. besides that, i'm not fukin with submissions or chokes.

Virgil Caine
10-02-2008, 06:23 PM
Again, we were talking about a street fight. No doubt Tyson would have gotten killed in an MMA ring. I just think in a street fight, Tyson was one punch away from detroying someone.

What you said was that "the question has been posed numerous times how Tyson would do in an MMA match," which is basically what I was responding to.



Pugilist: You lack sufficient knowledge of what you're talking to. As Movebricks said, typing pages of inaccuracies does not lend validity to your posts.

pugilistfan
10-02-2008, 07:27 PM
What you said was that "the question has been posed numerous times how Tyson would do in an MMA match," which is basically what I was responding to.



Pugilist: You lack sufficient knowledge of what you're talking to. As Movebricks said, typing pages of inaccuracies does not lend validity to your posts.

MoveBricks said that a boxer would lose to an MMA fighter 9/10 times in a real fight.

While Randy Couture himself said on a Canadian TV network that he'd try to keep the FIGHT STANDING AS LONG AS HE COULD in a REAL FIGHT. And MMA fighters have LOST to inferior MMA fighters in which some of whom were ONE-DIMENSIONAL just like Lee Murray.

And you are bringing up a crazy KJ Noons fight that happened 2 years ago in which he fought an opponent whos PRIMARY GAME is BOXING and yet you used it as an example as to why boxing doesnt work. The worst part about your post is that KJ Noons did less BOXING in that fight than almost any other fight in his career.

Than you say something about how all MMA fighters have KO power or something ridiculous. That is absolutely ridiculous. Forrest Griffin peppered Stephan Bonnar with clean shots for 3 rounds and couldnt even finish him off. You think Hughes has KO power? Look at the Huerta/Florian fight, you really think those guys have KO power or were trying to finish the fight. What about Werdum/AA or AA/Sylvia. Ask any fighter they will tell you the punches that hurt the most are the ones they dont see.

Like I said, if you disagree with my points and you clearly do than disprove my points.

But the fact you think Fedor has taken BJJ when he has clearly said he hasnt shows you arent as up on your MMA knowledge as you should be. Not to mention you think that chubby Mark Hunt was somehow a difficult style matchup for Fedor when Fedor is an effective ground fighter and Hunt has never shown effective takedown defense and is about as one-dimensional of an MMA fighter as you can get.

pugilistfan
10-02-2008, 07:38 PM
The only people who seem to be lacking sufficient knowledge are you and movebricks.

Like I said, this thread was made to create controversy. It was a pointless thread filled with a ton of inaccurate claims by the threadstarter.

The fact that you discredit my knowledge and yet claim that Liddell and W. Silva are excellent strikers just proves that your knowledge of striking and combat sports is LACKING.

Liddell/Silva was probably one of the worst fights ive ever seen. I respect what they did and admire their courage but the bottom line is it was nothing but a glorified amatuer boxing match. Look at UFC ALL ACCESS featuring both fighters and take a look at their training clips. No way you can tell me those guys are excellent strikers.

Virgil Caine
10-02-2008, 08:07 PM
MoveBricks said that a boxer would lose to an MMA fighter 9/10 times in a real fight.

While Randy Couture himself said on a Canadian TV network that he'd try to keep the FIGHT STANDING AS LONG AS HE COULD in a REAL FIGHT. And MMA fighters have LOST to inferior MMA fighters in which some of whom were ONE-DIMENSIONAL just like Lee Murray.

And you are bringing up a crazy KJ Noons fight that happened 2 years ago in which he fought an opponent whos PRIMARY GAME is BOXING and yet you used it as an example as to why boxing doesnt work. The worst part about your post is that KJ Noons did less BOXING in that fight than almost any other fight in his career.

Than you say something about how all MMA fighters have KO power or something ridiculous. That is absolutely ridiculous. Forrest Griffin peppered Stephan Bonnar with clean shots for 3 rounds and couldnt even finish him off. You think Hughes has KO power? Look at the Huerta/Florian fight, you really think those guys have KO power or were trying to finish the fight. What about Werdum/AA or AA/Sylvia. Ask any fighter they will tell you the punches that hurt the most are the ones they dont see.

Like I said, if you disagree with my points and you clearly do than disprove my points.

But the fact you think Fedor has taken BJJ when he has clearly said he hasnt shows you arent as up on your MMA knowledge as you should be. Not to mention you think that chubby Mark Hunt was somehow a difficult style matchup for Fedor when Fedor is an effective ground fighter and Hunt has never shown effective takedown defense and is about as one-dimensional of an MMA fighter as you can get.
In essence, you are merely oversimplifying my points, oversimplifying the sport of boxing, and oversimplifying the sport of MMA. As such, I do not have the patience or desire to respond to your pages of "nerd rage" (to borrow another one from Bricks).

mrpain81
10-02-2008, 09:36 PM
Pugilisticfan

http://media.tumblr.com/v8Y1VvbEma2efk3vWvg3NmQm_400.gif

Virgil Caine
10-02-2008, 10:15 PM
Pugilisticfan

http://media.tumblr.com/v8Y1VvbEma2efk3vWvg3NmQm_400.gif

If you prefer ignorance, more power to you. Fact is, anyone with decent MMA knowledge can plainly see the many many holes and inaccuracies in his posts.

I do not make it a hobbie to engage in ceaseless debates on internet forums, particularly with people who do not know what the f.uck they are talking about. Rather, I prefer to exchange information, and engage in intelligent dialogue; it's simply a matter of that.

But, you can jump on the Puglistic bandwagon and indicate your ignorance if you like.

kaps
10-02-2008, 11:39 PM
A boxer does stand a better chance in MMA than a MMA fighters does in boxing being that a MMA fighter usually spends an equil amount of time on boxing along with his wrestling, jiu Jitsu, and so forth. A boxer just box, that's it, so he's more than likely going to have the advantage there. Throw a boxer in a MMA fight and he's got a punchers chance, being that he atleast tried to learn the basics of defending kicks and takedowns, which if he did, his whole boxing game would change because he'd have to take a different stance when fighting. I dunno, this can go on forever. Why do boxing fans feel threatened by MMA? They're 2 Different sports, if you don't like it don't watch it. And for all those ****ers talking **** about this being a boxing forum and what not, this forum came from a MMA site that Rick Reeno bought trying to jump on the MMA bandwagon, so piss off, I was here first. Don't believe me, check the join date...

pugilistfan
10-03-2008, 12:54 AM
If you prefer ignorance, more power to you. Fact is, anyone with decent MMA knowledge can plainly see the many many holes and inaccuracies in his posts.

I do not make it a hobbie to engage in ceaseless debates on internet forums, particularly with people who do not know what the f.uck they are talking about. Rather, I prefer to exchange information, and engage in intelligent dialogue; it's simply a matter of that.

But, you can jump on the Puglistic bandwagon and indicate your ignorance if you like.

"Nerd Rage"

The threadstarter started a thread that entailed a monster post including youtube clips and BS posts. And you think I got nerd rage. This thread didnt have to exist.

If you disagree with me than dispute my points.

KJ Noons beat Edwards, Diaz with classic boxing. Rewatch the fights. Couture beat Sylvia, Sylvia was outboxing Noguiera for 3 rounds until being submitted, Varner outboxed Razor, Penn outboxed Sherk, Belfort outboxed Martin. These are ALL examples of high level MMA fighters using BOXING to win fights. And this boxing is some basic boxing techniques that UFC fanboy Joe Rogan said WOULD NEVER WORK IN MMA. And yet the champions in the ORGANIZATION THAT HE WORKS FOR have used classic boxing to great success.

Like I said, I dont really want to write these posts everyday either. But if I see something I disagree with I will write my rebuttal. So the best thing to do would be to let this thread die. I have no problems with it.

pugilistfan
10-03-2008, 01:20 AM
A boxer does stand a better chance in MMA than a MMA fighters does in boxing being that a MMA fighter usually spends an equil amount of time on boxing along with his wrestling, jiu Jitsu, and so forth. A boxer just box, that's it, so he's more than likely going to have the advantage there. Throw a boxer in a MMA fight and he's got a punchers chance, being that he atleast tried to learn the basics of defending kicks and takedowns, which if he did, his whole boxing game would change because he'd have to take a different stance when fighting. I dunno, this can go on forever. Why do boxing fans feel threatened by MMA? They're 2 Different sports, if you don't like it don't watch it. And for all those ****ers talking **** about this being a boxing forum and what not, this forum came from a MMA site that Rick Reeno bought trying to jump on the MMA bandwagon, so piss off, I was here first. Don't believe me, check the join date...

UGHHH god. His whole boxing game wouldnt change. How the hell would his whole boxing game change? Will he automatically forget how to throw a punch, defend against punches, and move his feet? It is no secret that very effective MMA strikers like Crocop, Hunt, A. Silva, Davis, Lytle, Williams, Stout, Fisher come from boxing/kickboxing backgrounds. Its because the majority of the skills learned in boxing/kickboxing/MT are APPLICABLE.

If they werent why is GSP, Arlovski wasting their time in boxing ONLY gyms during portions of their training camp?

In Crocops 2nd fight with Silva he dominated Silva on the feet. He was quicker, more accurate, more active and the difference in strikin ability was evident. He said he was way more effective in the 2nd fight against Silva because he stopped thinking so much ie. he just fought. He didnt worry about getting taken down. And thats what he said was his problem in some other fights. He thought too much. You cant stand there and worry about getting taken down because if you do you're already a beaten fighter. Why would you be in MMA if you're worried about being taken down? Doesnt that go against what MMA is supposed to be all about?

This is a boxing forum. I dont care about its origins.

Virgil Caine
10-03-2008, 02:25 AM
This is a boxing forum. I dont care about its origins.

Mixed Martial Arts Discussion
..........

YUHHHHHHH!
10-03-2008, 09:55 AM
"Nerd Rage"

The threadstarter started a thread that entailed a monster post including youtube clips and BS posts. And you think I got nerd rage. This thread didnt have to exist.

Wrong again, bucko.

Nerdrage:

Nerdrage is both the emotion felt when a nerd is exposed to something that directly contradicts the core beliefs of their obsession, and the reactionary diatribe by the nerd that inevitably follows.

(Your TYPING IN CAPS ALL THE TIME AND CURSE WORDS DON'T HELP EITHER BRAH)

As for your "Facts." You're just spewing false information that further proves my point, that the boxing community will always try to prove that their "fighters" are better at fighting.

I'll do some math, and I will even do you a favor and keep it as simple as possible. This way you can understand. Choose from the following.

-Hand Striking + Experience = Skill
-Hand Striking + Leg Striking + Experience = More skill, right?
-Hand Striking + Leg Striking + Takedown Offense/Defense = Even More Skill, right?
-Hand Striking + Leg Striking + Takedown Offense/Defense + Submissions = The most skill of all of these options, correct?

Which would you choose?

PS: Fedor never took BJJ, who told you that? He's a Combat Sambo fighter.

kaps
10-03-2008, 12:09 PM
UGHHH god. His whole boxing game wouldnt change. How the hell would his whole boxing game change? Will he automatically forget how to throw a punch, defend against punches, and move his feet? It is no secret that very effective MMA strikers like Crocop, Hunt, A. Silva, Davis, Lytle, Williams, Stout, Fisher come from boxing/kickboxing backgrounds. Its because the majority of the skills learned in boxing/kickboxing/MT are APPLICABLE.


If they werent why is GSP, Arlovski wasting their time in boxing ONLY gyms during portions of their training camp?

In Crocops 2nd fight with Silva he dominated Silva on the feet. He was quicker, more accurate, more active and the difference in strikin ability was evident. He said he was way more effective in the 2nd fight against Silva because he stopped thinking so much ie. he just fought. He didnt worry about getting taken down. And thats what he said was his problem in some other fights. He thought too much. You cant stand there and worry about getting taken down because if you do you're already a beaten fighter. Why would you be in MMA if you're worried about being taken down? Doesnt that go against what MMA is supposed to be all about?

This is a boxing forum. I dont care about its origins.

The Name of this forum is Mixed Martial Arts discussion. The boxing forum is up at the top. Appearantly you misunderstood me. A straight up boxer will have trouble dealing with kicks and takedowns if he takes a straight up boxing stance, the fighters you listed have adapted their boxing skills too be more useful in a MMA arena. But their boxing is not as sharp as a pro boxers because of the stance you have to take to avoid takedowns and defend kicks, so a boxer that learns how to defend kicks and takedowns will have to change the way he stands making his boxing less effective than if he was in his normal stance....

them_apples
10-03-2008, 06:26 PM
I think I speak for 90% of the people from the Mixed Martial Arts Discussion board when I say, "get the **** out." You know who you are, and those of you that I am directing this to, have some dignity and get Mayweather's **** out from your throat.

With that said, the technical aspect. I am going to loosely define a few of the popular aspects of Boxing, Mixed Martial Arts and Kickboxing. I will also loosely define Mixed Martial Arts. I'll site where I am getting some of these quotes/definitions at the end of my post.

Boxing: a combat sport in which two participants, generally of similar weight, fight each other with their fists.

Muay Thai/Kickboxing: refers to the sport of using martial-arts-style kicks and boxing-style punches [Elbows: Thai Boxing] to defeat an opponent in a similar way to that of standard boxing.

Wrestling: is the act of physical engagement between two people in which each wrestler strives to get an advantage over, or control of, the opponent. Physical techniques which embody the style of wrestling are clinching, holding, locking, and leverage.

[Brazilian] Jiu Jitsu: is a martial art and combat sport that focuses on grappling and especially ground fighting with the goal of gaining a dominant position and using joint-locks and chokeholds to force an opponent to submit or be knocked out depending on what submission method is used.

Mixed Martial Arts: is a full contact combat sport that allows a wide variety of fighting techniques, from a mixture of martial arts traditions and non-traditions, to be used in competitions. The rules allow the use of striking and grappling techniques, both while standing and on the ground. Such competitions allow martial artist of different backgrounds to compete. The term may also be used however less correctly to describe hybrid martial arts styles.

[Note: Hmm the definitions get bigger with the more advanced the disciplines become, don't you think? Just a thought.]

Now that you have been further educated and understand some of the aspects of MMA, let's discuss some situations and find out just what makes Mixed Martial Arts fighter more dangerous in a general fight.

Value Tudo, No Rules. The inspiration of modern MMA in The United States. It's common sense that in a typical fight, there are no rules in the street/minimal rules against cheap fighting in the Cage. One of the things you should note is the history of open weight tournaments in Mixed Martial Arts. The realism of a fight that is created by Mixed Martial Arts allows someone significantly lower in weight to defeat an opponent, which results in it being much more closely associated with a street fight than a boxing bout. In layman's terms, Mixed Martial Arts is a more realistic fight than boxing.

Now for the hypothetical:

Professional Heavyweight Boxer vs Professional Heavyweight Mixed Martial Artist.
Almost 100% of the time it is a short fight, not going anywhere past the first round, let alone a minute. The boxer throws some jabs, a big hook, which is ducked. The Mixed Martial Artist scores a take down, gets full mount, the boxer is completely defenseless. The Boxer is either KO'd or Submitted from this position.

Let's discuss the reasons why match ups like this almost always end this way.


The closest a boxer gets to practicing ground work is when they are working on their balance. This leaves them completely vulnerable to a take down
When taken down, a boxer who has been trained in only one aspect of fighting [Hand Striking], has no real way of defending from their back.
Boxers are fighting against an opponent with GRAVITY against them as well. Trying to keep yourself standing and fighting is much harder than dragging someone down and fighting.

Not to mention, a boxer gets beaten nearly every time against a striker who also utilizes other aspects of striking, like kicks and elbows. [Ex: Muay Thai, Karate, Capoeira, Kickboxing] But that is a different subject.

To wrap this post up, I'll just say one more thing. Boxing is one aspect of fighting. It is enhancing a person's hand striking with big gloves, there is no other aspect of a fight involved. To roughly quote Pat Miletich, "If you look at fighting as a tree, Mixed Martial Arts is the entire tree. Boxing is just a small branch of this tree."

I hope this post has helped to further educate some of you people who litter this forum with bull****.

Or, if you are too dense to fathom what I've just said. Here are a couple of videos that prove my point.

Entry Level Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Fighter demolishes Well Schooled Boxer.
<object width="425" height="349"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EzU0gI70kl8&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EzU0gI70kl8&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x006699&color2=0x54abd6&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="349"></embed></object>

Mediocre Wrestler TKO's a Well Schooled Boxer with ease.
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Thank you for your time.

Siting:

http://www.wikipedia.org/
http://www.youtube.com/


yea what about an elite level boxer though? elite level boxers are usually much much faster than an elite level MMA fighter. Example Pacquiao vs Shaun Sherk. Pacquiao would land on Sherk no doubt, he's just to quick..especailly with 3 oz gloves. He's also fast on his feet which would allow him to avoid take downs. Same goes for floyd Mayweather.

however, boxers like George Foreman and Lennox Lewis..very upright boxers..I could see them getting taken down for some reason.

I see a young Mike Tyson Scoring to easy on some of the UFC's heavyweights. One shot from Mike with those tiny gloves and its all over. One shot.

those boxers in the video just look like typical MMA fighters that opt to use their hands. Most actual top ranked boxers are literally just better athletes in general.

Kakutogi-Gumi
10-03-2008, 06:43 PM
yea what about an elite level boxer though? elite level boxers are usually much much faster than an elite level MMA fighter. Example Pacquiao vs Shaun Sherk. Pacquiao would land on Sherk no doubt, he's just to quick..especailly with 3 oz gloves. He's also fast on his feet which would allow him to avoid take downs. Same goes for floyd Mayweather.


Your talking about a guy whose life was about wrestling before MMA. At the same time Pac would try to land a heavy punch, he would be on his back before he knew what hit him. The same with Uriah Faber. There is no one who can escape a natural shoot because it a total reflex with born wrestlers. You can be the fastest on your feet, if you don't have a sprawl, you're ****ed.

BOLLOCKS
10-03-2008, 07:34 PM
**** MMA..

Spare Moody
10-03-2008, 07:42 PM
well there's some intellect.

BrooklynBomber
10-03-2008, 10:02 PM
well there's some intellect.

I have to say that is the most reasonable thing said in this thread.

So, **** mma and **** fedor

Spare Moody
10-03-2008, 10:12 PM
and there's some more

Kakutogi-Gumi
10-03-2008, 10:15 PM
*takes a big whiff*

Smell that bullshido.

BrooklynBomber
10-03-2008, 10:26 PM
and there's some more

Anywah, I am soon out

One love.

pugilistfan
10-04-2008, 03:33 AM
Wrong again, bucko.

Nerdrage:

Nerdrage is both the emotion felt when a nerd is exposed to something that directly contradicts the core beliefs of their obsession, and the reactionary diatribe by the nerd that inevitably follows.

(Your TYPING IN CAPS ALL THE TIME AND CURSE WORDS DON'T HELP EITHER BRAH)

As for your "Facts." You're just spewing false information that further proves my point, that the boxing community will always try to prove that their "fighters" are better at fighting.

I'll do some math, and I will even do you a favor and keep it as simple as possible. This way you can understand. Choose from the following.

-Hand Striking + Experience = Skill
-Hand Striking + Leg Striking + Experience = More skill, right?
-Hand Striking + Leg Striking + Takedown Offense/Defense = Even More Skill, right?
-Hand Striking + Leg Striking + Takedown Offense/Defense + Submissions = The most skill of all of these options, correct?

Which would you choose?

PS: Fedor never took BJJ, who told you that? He's a Combat Sambo fighter.

Skill in terms of what.

Your logic is ridiculous. Just because you practice other aspects doesnt mean you're good at it.

Travis Lutter is an MMA fighter. But the guy has mediocre wrestling, horrible striking and great BJJ. Whereas, Miguel Cotto is an excellent boxer who has an extensive amatuer boxing background, fought in amatuer competitions around the world, has over 30 pro fights and is always in great condition.

The notion that MMA is more skilled because they do more things is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Mayweather, Calazaghe, Tarver, RJJ, Berto, Cotto, Margarito, Hatton and many other world class boxers have been competing since they were very young kids.

Whats Chris Lebens background? How about Forrest Griffin who started MMA at the age of 20 and was working as a police officer just prior to TUF 1. Rampage was a high school wrestler and wrestled at a junior college for 2 years before getting into MMA and yet he outwrestled Dan Henderson in MMA. Lesnar was a wrestler, is a great athlete but didnt compete in MMA until 2006. Now hes fighting for the title. The rise to the top in MMA is so much easier compared to boxing.

What do you mean which one would I choose? I'd rather have GSP's skillset than Roy Jones Jr in a REAL FIGHT. Thats because even though GSP's hands arent anywhere near the level of an RJJ, it would still be better than 99% of the population. And i'd feel confident that I can fight in any given situation. But, like I said it still doesnt mean that an MMA fighter is unbeatable given a situation where he faced a fighter who is elite in another combat sport like boxing or Muay Thai. MMA fighters arent the best strikers in the world, not even close and striking particularly hand combat is the most practical form of real fighting.

And Fedor has said numerous times hes a SAMBO fighter. He has never trained BJJ because he never felt the need to because he believes Sambo is better.

pugilistfan
10-04-2008, 03:48 AM
Your talking about a guy whose life was about wrestling before MMA. At the same time Pac would try to land a heavy punch, he would be on his back before he knew what hit him. The same with Uriah Faber. There is no one who can escape a natural shoot because it a total reflex with born wrestlers. You can be the fastest on your feet, if you don't have a sprawl, you're ****ed.

Well, Pac is like 30lbs lighter than those guys.

But it wouldnt matter because any boxer would get taken down by Sherk or Faber in MMA. Sherk has among the best takedowns in the sport and Faber is no slouch.

And life was wrestling is a little bit misleading. Sherk never really accomplished much in wrestling. His background was a high school wrestler, than he transitioned to MMA but he quit for 2-3 years to work construction because MMA failed to take off.

The fighters with the best wrestling credentials are the fighters who dont even have the best takedown defense in the sport. Liddell was only a collegiate wrestler and wasnt really that accomplished as a wrestler. He has fantastic takedown defense.

And GSP who is the best MMA wrestler in the sport started wrestling when he was 22. Sure hes trained with the Canadian National Wrestling team but his takedown defense isnt because of his wrestling ability. Its only a small part of it.

Even Joe Rogan said it himself when GSP fought Koscheck. GSP's takedown defense is so good because of his athleticism, reflexes, footwork. Athleticism plays a pretty large role in takedown defense. Look at Anthony Johnson in his fight against Speer. That guy wrestled for 2 years in high school and is primarily known as a striker who has quick hands. Johnson was stuffing every single takedown attempt from a pretty damn good wrestler in Speer. And Johnson wasnt doing so because of his mediocre wrestling background. He did so using his incredible athleticism.

Virgil Caine
10-04-2008, 03:52 AM
And Fedor has said numerous times hes a SAMBO fighter. He has never trained BJJ because he never felt the need to because he believes Sambo is better.

Irregardless of all the other **** you type, I have to note; BJJ is not the be all end all of grappling. It is simply a style. In reality, Sambo is a very solid grappling art. Also, despite your previous denial of this (based, I'm sure, on hearsay and conjectural analysis), Fedor is indeed an expert in judo (he meddled at the Russian championships!), hence he has been schooled in various judo submissions (particularly armbars and chokes, one would assume) from an early age as well. Furthermore, your statements that Fedor has never trained in BJJ is absolutely ludicrous. Whether or not he is (or cares to be) ranked under BJJ, what makes you believe he is unfamiliar with the techniques? Particularly, as the style is so influential in MMA? You simply do not know what the f.uck you are talking about is all that can be said.

Your posts are literally seething with ignorance. You should really figure out what the f.uck you are saying before you continue to embarrass yourself posting such nonsense.

A tip, do some f.ucking research:
http://www.wikipedia.org (http://www.wikipedia.com)

mrpain81
10-04-2008, 06:28 AM
Your posts are literally seething with ignorance. You should really figure out what the f.uck you are saying before you continue to embarrass yourself posting such nonsense.

A tip, do some f.ucking research:
http://www.wikipedia.org (http://www.wikipedia.com)

pugilistfan is saying the truth

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t250/KillaKastro_2007/6fhaxc6.jpg

Kakutogi-Gumi
10-04-2008, 08:11 AM
And life was wrestling is a little bit misleading. Sherk never really accomplished much in wrestling. His background was a high school wrestler, than he transitioned to MMA but he quit for 2-3 years to work construction because MMA failed to take off.

The fighters with the best wrestling credentials are the fighters who dont even have the best takedown defense in the sport. Liddell was only a collegiate wrestler and wasnt really that accomplished as a wrestler. He has fantastic takedown defense.

And GSP who is the best MMA wrestler in the sport started wrestling when he was 22. Sure hes trained with the Canadian National Wrestling team but his takedown defense isnt because of his wrestling ability. Its only a small part of it.

Even Joe Rogan said it himself when GSP fought Koscheck. GSP's takedown defense is so good because of his athleticism, reflexes, footwork. Athleticism plays a pretty large role in takedown defense.

Just because they didn't make it or were mediochre in college doesn't mean they stopped training. Sherk still trained in MMA and still trained for the hell of it when he started his flooring company. The same with Liddell. You just don't unlearn that stuff. We've got wrestling clubs in MI filled with guys who used to wrestle on a high school college level.

Also, GSP wrestled long before he was in MMA. He just didn't show up on the OCWT's doorstep and said "Train Me".

Naz-Fan
10-04-2008, 06:39 PM
Pugilistfan you're a ****ing retard

Lee Murray was no way inferior to Tito Ortiz. Lee Murray was the man of the future. Devastating KO power and great ground skills. Miletich stated he was a Future world champion. The only guy that ever outworked a prime Lee Murray was ANDERSON SILVA (which in retrospect, Murray did ****ing good against him).

I would go as far to say Fedor would destroy ANY heavyweight boxer in a fight.

YUHHHHHHH!
10-04-2008, 11:55 PM
And Fedor has said numerous times hes a SAMBO fighter. He has never trained BJJ because he never felt the need to because he believes Sambo is better.

What are you getting at? Everyone knows this.

All of your posts are failure.