...about Republican voter turnout start? I have to admit I was surprised that the "new voter" advantage that the Democrats normally enjoy did not play a factor here, while the Republicans were supposed so much better at "getting the vote out".

So what will the conspiracy theory be? Dubya got his brother to rig the vote in Florida? Hidden slush funds were used to bribe non-voters to get out to the polls? Right-wingers ran all-day keg parties to keep the students away? What will it be?

I have a feeling vB is hard at work right now coming up with a new pile of bull**** to shovel on us about this election and how Bush stole it. I havent seen him around much in the last couple days.

This one I can almost guarantee you will turn into an urban legend: how did Bush come out so far ahead when the exit polls were predicting a huge Kerry victory?

There are all kinds of answers related to statistical methodology that can easily answer this question, but people tend to ignore that kind of stuff when it comes to these matters.

...about Republican voter turnout start? I have to admit I was surprised that the "new voter" advantage that the Democrats normally enjoy did not play a factor here, while the Republicans were supposed so much better at "getting the vote out".

So what will the conspiracy theory be? Dubya got his brother to rig the vote in Florida? Hidden slush funds were used to bribe non-voters to get out to the polls? Right-wingers ran all-day keg parties to keep the students away? What will it be?



...The not so funny part is that you probably aren't to far from an accurate prediction. I'm surprised the rumors haven't already started.

I was discussing the election, yesterday....& the incredibly antiquated ways some are still stuck voting with.
One of my very liberal (& annoying) co-workers piped in that she
"prefers the paper ballot....there's less chance of anyone cheating.".
She was ALREADY implying that the Repubs had cheated in some way.
I just frowned & told her that's some THIRD-GRADE ****....& that she sounded like a Mike Tyson fan, after he gets beaten.


I hate all of that ****.


Right Wingers.....they work off of FEAR. Fear that someone different from them wants to steal EVERYTHING from them.

Left Wingers.....they work off of PARANOIA. Always believing the "system", or the "man", is cheating everyone.

Well, since you asked...

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2004/031104sameamount.htm

Flashback: Staged Election: Several Republicans Win by Exact Same Amount of Votes

Voxfux | November 3 2004

Taken from news ticker at top of website (hence the caps)

Note: This refers to the 2002 election.

MASSIVE VOTE FRAUD!---ALL ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES SUSPECT.........ALL ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES PRODUCED BY CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN EXTREMISTS...........ALL ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES ARE A FRAUD...........REPUBLICANS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY WIN OVER DEMOCRATS BY GAINING 18,181 VOTES.........TEXAS REPUBLICANS DANNY SCHEEL, CARTER CASTEEL and JEFF WENTWORTH ALL RECIEVED EXACTLY THE SAME NUMBER OF VOTES - 18,181............TIME TO WAKE UP........... THE CHANCES OF ALL THREE GETTING THE EXACT SAME NUMBER OF VOTES IS ON THE ORDER OF MILLIONS TO ONE - YET THE CORPORATE MEDIA REFUSES TO REPORT THIS FACT.......... BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE..............TURNS OUT THAT MICHIGAN REPUBLICAN CANDICE MILLER BEAT HER DEMOCRATIC OPPONENT - SHE GOT 18,181 VOTES.....HMMMMM.....AND REPUBLICAN MICHAEL SMIGIEL FROM MARYLAND BEAT HIS CHALLENGER - CAN YOU GUESS HOW MANY VOTES HE GOT? YOU GUESSED IT - 18,181........PEOPLE IT IS TIME FOR ANOTHER AMERICAN REVOLUTION..........IT IS TIME TO DO EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING POSSIBLE TO DESTROY THEIR PLANS............THESE NEW ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES MUST BE DESTROYED IMMEDIATLY AND WE NEED TO RALLY AND ORGANIZE SO THAT NO AMERICAN EVER PLACES A VOTE ON A ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINE AGAIN...........ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES ARE ALL DESIGNED AND BUILT BY FANATICAL CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS...........ALL ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES CONTAIN "GLITCHES" TO HAND VICTORIES TO REPUBLICANS..............WAKE UP OR YOU AND YOUR FAMILY WILL BE KILLED BY THESE AGENTS OF THE NEW WORLD ORDER............MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT - THEY ARE PLAYING FOR KEEPS AND THEY HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF DISTAIN FOR YOU...........THEY WANT YOU DEAD AND OUT OF THE WAY.............SPONSOR LEGLISLATIION TO DEMAND THAT ALL VOTING MACHINES HAVE AN AUDITABLE PAPER COPY OR ELSE THERE WILL BE DARKNESS UPON THE LAND..........WAKE UP.........

---------------------------

http://infowars.com/print/world/blackwell.htm

Enter, Mr. Blackwell: Was He Bush's Trump Card In Ohio?

Jon Rappoport | November 3 2004

As all America now knows, Ken Blackwell is the secretary of state of Ohio. He controls every aspect of the voting process, from his office.

It was Blackwell who supposedly told Andy Card that there were not enough provisional ballots on tap to make up the difference between Kerry's count and a possible victory for Kerry. In other words, no need to actually tally those provisional ballots.

We've heard stories that, in Ohio, certain precincts didn't have enough voting machines ready to handle what everyone knew would be an avalanche of voters---some of whom ended up waiting nine hours to cast their ballots---some of whom wandered off into the night, too frustrated to stand and stand and stand. It is ultimately Blackwell that presides over the disposition of those machines.

We know that Blackwell told CNN last night that, if a count of provisional ballots was necessary under his watch, he would assure it would be done in a very orderly fashion: 10 DAYS to prepare the ballots and check them out, and then the ACTUAL count would follow. CNN anchors almost fell into a funk when they realized that it could take a month or more to complete the job. Imagine how such a prospect could have backed Kerry into a corner. Rolling the dice on overtaking Bush during this post-election tally, the media of the nation on his neck for an "unconscionable delaying tactic"---"Kerry is ruining America and making it a laughingstock"---the Republican hounds after him every minute of every day---"the Democrats are creating their greatest moment of shame"---I have to wonder why Kerry finally conceded the election. Was it because he really thought there weren't enough provisional ballots to make a difference? Or was it because he knew he would be relentlessly accused of distracting and weakening "a nation at war against terrorism?" And who, besides Ken Blackwell, has the true number of provisional ballots in his pocket?

What we don't know is: who is Ken Blackwell? Does he have a built-in political bias? Did he favor one of the candidates? If so, how fervent is his passion?

Here is an excerpt from an Ohio government website devoted to the work and credentials of Blackwell. You be the judge. And oh yes, Blackwell is a Republican. Actually, he's been the co-chair of the committee to re-elect George Bush in Ohio.

www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/blackwell/

Chief Elections Officer
As Ohio's chief election officer, Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell oversees the elections process and appoints the members of boards of elections in each of Ohio's 88 counties.

He supervises the administration of election laws; approves ballot language; reviews statewide initiative and referendum petitions, chairs the Ohio Ballot Board, which approves ballot language for statewide issues; canvasses votes for all elective state offices and issues; investigates election frauds and irregularities; trains election officials and reimburses counties for poll worker training costs.

The Elections Division compiles and maintains election statistics, political party records and other election-related records. Statewide candidates' campaign finance reports are filed with the office, together with the reports for state political action committees (PACs), state political parties and legislative caucus campaign committees…

Mr. Blackwell is a member of the national advisory boards of Youth for Christ…and was formerly a domestic policy analyst at the Heritage Foundation in Washington, D.C… Mr. Blackwell has held the nation's highest security clearance…He is a contributing commentator for Salem Communications, delivering commentaries on Salem's more than 90 [Christian] radio stations nationwide…In 2004, Mr. Blackwell received the John M. Ashbrook Award given jointly by the American Conservative Union and the Ashbrook Center for Public Affairs. Past recipients of this award include President Ronald Reagan, Ambassador Jean Kirkpatrick and Charlton Heston.

End of excerpt

The Heritage Foundation is a very famous and influential politically-right think tank (and that is only the beginning of its story). Is there anyone in the American Conservative Union who voted for Kerry? Is the Pope Protestant? As for Salem Communications, here is a snip from its website:

Salem Communications Corporation is the leading provider of radio programming, online resources and magazines targeted to the Christian and family themes audience. For over 25 years our core business has been the ownership and operation of radio stations in major U.S. markets. We have also developed a radio network, which offers talk, news and music content options to stations through affiliate partnerships. We own and operate magazine publishing and Internet businesses, both of which share our commitment to our target audience. We continue to look for opportunities to strengthen our leadership position in the distribution and development of Christian and family themes content across multiple media.

End of snip

Now, here is an excerpt from an interview with Ken Blackwell done by PBS host Tavis Smiley (Feb. 5, 2004):

Tavis: …Let me ask you before my time runs out here. As I mention again, you are the Secretary of State, but there's a big rumor that you're gonna run for Governor in Ohio and that, if elected, you would be only the second African-American elected Governor in this country since Reconstruction. The first Republican--Doug Wilder, of course, being a Democrat in the Commonwealth of Virginia. Are you really gonna run? And how serious are you about this?

Blackwell: I'm very serious. I've had the good fortune of being the mayor of my hometown. I've been the Treasurer of this fine state here in Ohio. I've been a U.S. Ambassador and an Undersecretary of the U.S. Department of HUD. I think I'm ready to put on the hat of Governor and to lead this state to growth and prosperity and opportunity…

Tavis: Let me ask you whether or not you think the Buckeyes, the folk in Ohio, are ready for Kenneth Blackwell, a black Republican, as the top executive of the state.

Blackwell: I think so. The fact of the matter is that folks elected me Treasurer of this state. I was the top fiduciary in the state. That's a statewide election, and now I, in fact, oversee all elections in the state, so when people of this state trust me with their votes and trust me with their money, I think they're ready to trust me to be their Governor.

Tavis: How much campaigning are you gonna do for George W. Bush between now and November?

Blackwell: Well, we're gonna do a lot of work in Ohio. Let me just tell you--Ohio is the battleground state. There hasn't been a Republican president elected or reelected without carrying Ohio, and George Bush, when you factor out Ralph Nader, only won Ohio by one percentage point. This is a battleground state. It's gonna go right down to the last day…

End of PBS excerpt.

I'm not making the point that Blackwell is bad because he's a Republican. I'm illustrating that this is a very ambitious man who's positioned as a Republican FOR BUSH and for what Bush believes, right down to his shoes. A man who campaigned resolutely for Bush and THEN oversaw the state election which handed Bush a second term. A man who is a player in the Republican party, who knows the score, who can give favors and then ask for favors back, as he pushes his own career upward.

Is this a conflict of interest that could have led Blackwell to improperly set the conditions for a Bush triumph? Is the Pope Catholic?

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2004/031104votefraud.htm

Election 2004 Vote Fraud

Kerry conceded rapidly despite the fact that vote fraud has been documented everywhere. Numerous examples of vote fraud are pouring in.

Enter, Mr. Blackwell: Was He Bush's Trump Card In Ohio?

It was Blackwell who supposedly told Andy Card that there were not enough provisional ballots on tap to make up the difference between Kerry's count and a possible victory for Kerry. In other words, no need to actually tally those provisional ballots.

Staged Election: Several Republicans Win by Exact Same Amount of Votes

What went wrong in Cuyahoga?- Did they count 90.000 votes in time?

At around 1:00 AM this morning, we reported, that the Mayor of Columbus, Ohio, which is Michael B. Coleman, reported, that though Bush is leading with 100.000 votes, 190.000 Kerry Votes are "coming now from Cuyahoga".

Was The Ohio Election Honest And Fair?

Exit polls and ‘actual’ results don’t match; Evoting states show greater discrepancy

An analysis of the original AP exit polling, which showed Kerry with a tighter margin and leading in myriad states, raises serious questions about the authenticity of the popular vote in several key states, RAW STORY has learned.

Possible evidence of voter fraud in Ohio

Note the already-voted-with ballots in the back of the truck with the Bush-Cheney sticker in the back window. Does this prove fraud? Well, it certainly doesn't look good in a state that's already had lots of problems this election.

Fixed - The Stealing Of Another Election

...on several swing states, and EVERY STATE that has EVoting but no paper trails has an unexplained advantage for Bush of around +5% when comparing exit polls to actual results.

In EVERY STATE that has paper audit trails on their EVoting, the exit poll results match the actual results reported within the margin of error.

So, we have MATCHING RESULTS for exit polls vs. voting with audits

Flashback: Diebold CEO in Ohio 'Committed to Delivering Election to Bush'

The head of a company vying to sell voting machines in Ohio told Republicans in a recent fund-raising letter that he is "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."

Russian Observer Shocked by U.S. Election Procedures

A Russian parliamentarian taking part in international monitoring of the U.S. presidential elections has said that the elections were held in violation of U.S. law and that that he was shocked after seeing how the elections were held.

Electronic voting machine woes reported

U.S. voters nationwide reported some 1,100 problems with electronic voting machines on Tuesday, including trouble choosing their intended candidates.

More Evidence of Voting Machine Errors

The screen says "Vote Save Error #9. Use the Backup Voting Procedure." A news crew was on hand to film Californians using the voting machines. I pointed to this particular screen and said "There's your story - right there

http://infowars.com/print/election/screen_shots.htm

Screen Shots Show CNN
Changed Exit Poll Data!
11-3-4

SoCalDemocrat (xxx posts) Wed Nov-03-04 02:44 AM Response to Reply #1 78. Proof CNN is tampering with the election to cover the fraud Edited on Wed Nov-03-04 02:46 AM by SoCalDemocrat I ran CNN's own numbers. It's impossible. Between the two screen shots below, exactly 57 more persons were polled. If every single one of them were female, and every single one of them voted for Bush, that would account for a 2.3% increase in the exit polling results for female voters. However, CNN shows a 6% increase for Female voters supporting Bush. CNN has altered other exit polling data since I began tracking it and compiling evidence against the EVoting machines. Thanks to DU member EarlG for grabbing these screen shots! http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_
mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1290765&mesg_id=1295180&page=

keep in mind I didn't start a post that said "The republicans stole the election..."

But since you asked about the conspiracy theories, I thought I'd link some. I heard about the identical vote count when Jones was on Coast to Coast AM with George Noory last night overnight, so don't post replies about how I'm a "sore loser"

I didn't even vote; I don't like Mr. Bush, but didn't exactly endorse Kerry either. I didn't feel there was a candidate worth a damn this year...

When will Democrats finally admit that they lost an election fair and square? Its people like the person who wrote that article that makes people hate liberals. Democrats need to accept the fact that in this election, more people liked the other guy. I know its hard for them to comprehend, but its the facts in this case.

The guy whose site those articles came off of is a Libertarian

The guy whose site those articles came off of is a Libertarian

Fair enough, but a sore looser is a sore looser.

I would be a Libertarian if it wasnt for the open borders thing.

i had so many friends that are republican vote that normally don't. the reason is that before the election it seemed like it was going to be very close and that kerry might actually have won. republicans did the same thing the dems did and got the vote out. it really is no surprise to me because kerry has to be the scariest candidate i have ever seen. and most republicans felt the same way. i had alot of dem friends that voted bush too. not a surprise at all. most of the people that wanted kerry did so just because of the fact that they could not stand bush.

Remember, these aren't my views, but responding to the original poster, I'm sure many of you will find these articles interesting:

http://www.rense.com/general59/kerry.htm

Kerry Won - Here
Are The Facts
By Greg Palast
From TomPaine.com
11-4-4

Kerry won. Here are the facts.

I know you don't want to hear it. You can't face one more hung chad. But I don't have a choice. As a journalist examining that messy sausage called American democracy, it's my job to tell you who got the most votes in the deciding states. Tuesday, in Ohio and New Mexico, it was John Kerry.

Most voters in Ohio thought they were voting for Kerry. CNN's exit poll showed Kerry beating Bush among Ohio women by 53 percent to 47 percent. Kerry also defeated Bush among Ohio's male voters 51 percent to 49 percent. Unless a third gender voted in Ohio, Kerry took the state.

So what's going on here? Answer: the exit polls are accurate. Pollsters ask, "Who did you vote for?" Unfortunately, they don't ask the crucial, question, "Was your vote counted?" The voters don't know.

Here's why. Although the exit polls show that most voters in Ohio punched cards for Kerry-Edwards, thousands of these votes were simply not recorded. This was predictable and it was predicted. [See TomPaine.com, "An Election Spoiled Rotten," November 1.]


---Whose Votes Are Discarded?---

And not all votes spoil equally. Most of those votes, say every official report, come from African-American and minority precincts. (To learn more, click here.)

We saw this in Florida in 2000. Exit polls showed Gore with a plurality of at least 50,000, but it didn't match the official count. That's because the official, Secretary of State Katherine Harris, excluded 179,855 spoiled votes. In Florida, as in Ohio, most of these votes lost were cast on punch cards where the hole wasn't punched through completely-leaving a 'hanging chad,'-or was punched extra times. Whose cards were discarded? Expert statisticians investigating spoilage for the government calculated that 54 percent of the ballots thrown in the dumpster were cast by black folks. (To read the report from the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, click here .)

And here's the key: Florida is terribly typical. The majority of ballots thrown out (there will be nearly 2 million tossed out from Tuesday's election) will have been cast by African American and other minority citizens.


---The Impact Of Challenges---

First and foremost, Kerry was had by chads. But the Democrat wasn't punched out by punch cards alone. There were also the 'challenges.' That's a polite word for the Republican Party of Ohio's use of an old Ku Klux Klan technique: the attempt to block thousands of voters of color at the polls. In Ohio, Wisconsin and Florida, the GOP laid plans for poll workers to ambush citizens under arcane laws-almost never used-allowing party-designated poll watchers to finger individual voters and demand they be denied a ballot. The Ohio courts were horrified and federal law prohibits targeting of voters where race is a factor in the challenge. But our Supreme Court was prepared to let Republicans stand in the voting booth door.


---Enchanted State's Enchanted Vote---

Now, on to New Mexico, where a Kerry plurality-if all votes are counted-is more obvious still. Before the election, in TomPaine.com, I wrote, "John Kerry is down by several thousand votes in New Mexico, though not one ballot has yet been counted."

How did that happen? It's the spoilage, stupid; and the provisional ballots.

CNN said George Bush took New Mexico by 11,620 votes. Again, the network total added up to that miraculous, and non-existent, '100 percent' of ballots cast.

New Mexico reported in the last race a spoilage rate of 2.68 percent, votes lost almost entirely in Hispanic, Native American and poor precincts-Democratic turf. From Tuesday's vote, assuming the same ballot-loss rate, we can expect to see 18,000 ballots in the spoilage bin.

Spoilage has a very Democratic look in New Mexico. Hispanic voters in the Enchanted State, who voted more than two to one for Kerry, are five times as likely to have their vote spoil as a white voter. Counting these uncounted votes would easily overtake the Bush 'plurality.'

To read the article in full, click here:
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won_.php

http://www.rense.com/general59/rig.htm

More Evidence The
Vote Was Rigged
From Wayne Nash
11-5-4

I don't want rain on the parade but I am getting quite a few emails from various sources citing possible irregularities with the voting process. So, I did a little research myself on the net to see what I could find. As a political scientist I could not resist.

Regardless of the veracity of any claim to possible irregularities I suggest that this question of legitimacy of the process needs to be addressed if everyone casting their vote is to feel that their vote is being properly counted. No one can feel disenfranchised in a real democracy. Otherwise, you end up with a dictatorship and not a democracy at all.

Unless BOTH sides feel the system is verifiable then you may end up with a banana republic 'democracy'. This is not question of who won the election. It is a matter of much greater importance; the legitimacy of the democratic process itself.

Here are a couple of sites which address the issue:

1. http://www.openvotingconsortium.org/

2. http://www.electoral-vote.com/

On this last web site I found this interesting bit of information:

"Various people sent me mail saying that it is awfully fishy that the exit polls and final results were substantially different in some places. I hope someone will follow this up and actually do a careful analysis. Does anyone know of a Website containing all the exit poll data? If we go to computerized voting without a paper trail and the machines can be set up to cheat, that is the end of our democracy. Switching 5 votes per machine is probably all it would take to throw an election and nobody would ever see it unless someone compares the computer totals and exit polls. I am still very concerned about the remark of Walden O'Dell a Republican fund raiser and CEO of Diebold, which makes voting machines saying he would deliver Ohio for President Bush. Someone (not me) should look into this carefully. The major newspapers actually recounted all the votes in Florida last time. Maybe this year's project should be looking at the exit polls. If there are descrepancies between the exit polls and the final results in touch-screen counties but not in paper-ballot counties, that would be a signal. At the very least it could be a good masters thesis for a political science student. The Open voting consortium is a group addressing the subject of verifiable voting."

Could there be a possible problem here? Let's see...

* In states where there were paper ballots the results exactly matched the exit polls.

* In states where there were only electronic 'touch-screen' paperless voting machines Bush showed an inexplicable 5-8 point or more difference from the polls, contradicting otherwise accurate exit polls.

* The software used in these voting machines is so sophisticated that you can't even check out the programming because it disappears leaving nothing to verify, no source code, no nothing.

Below are 3 articles explaining how these E-voting programs work. The man who published these articles is apparently an expert on this E-voting subject and a computer scientist.

Article 1
http://www.southbaymobilization.org/newsroom/
articles/04.0303.ADeafeningSilence_article.htm
Article 2
http://www.southbaymobilization.org/newsroom/
articles/04.0618.SecretAgentPrograms_article.htm
Article 3
http://www.southbaymobilization.org/newsroom/
articles/04.0701.EVoting_TheNewCloseUpMagic_article.htm

Another site takes the subject seriously...

http://www.rense.com/general59/steI.HTM

Highlight:

* SoCalDem has done a statistical analysis... ...on several swing states, and EVERY STATE that has EVoting but no paper trails has an unexplained advantage for Bush of around +5% when comparing exit polls to actual results.

* In EVERY STATE that has paper audit trails on their EVoting, the exit poll results match the actual results reported within the margin of error.

* Analysis of the polling data vs actual data and voting systems supports the hypothesis that evoting may be to blame in the discrepancies.

* The media was a bit taken aback that the results didn't match the exit polls AT ALL. Most of the commentators were scratching their head in disbelief at the results. The media has gracefully claimed they "just got it wrong."

Some examples?

WISCONSIN:

Kerry leads Female voters by 7%, Bush leads male voters by 7%. Male vs. Female voter turnout is 47% M, 53% F. That means Kerry statistically has a 7% edge in exit polling in Wisconsin.

Actual results however show Bush ahead by 1%, an unexplained difference of 8%.

NEVADA:

Kerry leads in the exit polls by a clear margin, but is still behind in the reported results. This state is even closer.

Actual is just 1% favor of Bush. Exit polls show Kerry with a wider margin. Women favored Kerry by 8% here out of 52% of total voters. Men favored Bush by just 6% out of 48% of total voters. Actual reported results don't match exit polling AT ALL in Nevada.

Easy Programming?

According to the programmer cited above here is how easy it is to "make magic" ...

We need COUNTERS - (B) = Bush; (K) = Kerry; (V) = Vote; (T) =Tally

1. If V = B, add 1 to B
2. If T = 8, add 1 to B; Clear T; Skip 3
3. If V = K, add 1 to K; Add 1 to T

This extremely simple bit of programming would shift 12% of the vote from Kerry to Bush, it would defy exit polls, and it would make it look like Bush had a huge popular win.

_____

Feel free to pass this on to your Republican and Democratic friends. If you are American, this should concern you regardless of who won this election or wins future elections. If your process is flawed your democracy is flawed and everything you believe in is on the line. I am sure that people on the ground are acting in good faith and voting according to their values and beliefs. It is the people at the top that concern me.

http://www.rense.com/general59/rig.htm

More Evidence The
Vote Was Rigged
From Wayne Nash
11-5-4

I don't want rain on the parade but I am getting quite a few emails from various sources citing possible irregularities with the voting process. So, I did a little research myself on the net to see what I could find. As a political scientist I could not resist.

Regardless of the veracity of any claim to possible irregularities I suggest that this question of legitimacy of the process needs to be addressed if everyone casting their vote is to feel that their vote is being properly counted. No one can feel disenfranchised in a real democracy. Otherwise, you end up with a dictatorship and not a democracy at all.

Unless BOTH sides feel the system is verifiable then you may end up with a banana republic 'democracy'. This is not question of who won the election. It is a matter of much greater importance; the legitimacy of the democratic process itself.

Here are a couple of sites which address the issue:

1. http://www.openvotingconsortium.org/

2. http://www.electoral-vote.com/

On this last web site I found this interesting bit of information:

"Various people sent me mail saying that it is awfully fishy that the exit polls and final results were substantially different in some places. I hope someone will follow this up and actually do a careful analysis. Does anyone know of a Website containing all the exit poll data? If we go to computerized voting without a paper trail and the machines can be set up to cheat, that is the end of our democracy. Switching 5 votes per machine is probably all it would take to throw an election and nobody would ever see it unless someone compares the computer totals and exit polls. I am still very concerned about the remark of Walden O'Dell a Republican fund raiser and CEO of Diebold, which makes voting machines saying he would deliver Ohio for President Bush. Someone (not me) should look into this carefully. The major newspapers actually recounted all the votes in Florida last time. Maybe this year's project should be looking at the exit polls. If there are descrepancies between the exit polls and the final results in touch-screen counties but not in paper-ballot counties, that would be a signal. At the very least it could be a good masters thesis for a political science student. The Open voting consortium is a group addressing the subject of verifiable voting."

Could there be a possible problem here? Let's see...

* In states where there were paper ballots the results exactly matched the exit polls.

* In states where there were only electronic 'touch-screen' paperless voting machines Bush showed an inexplicable 5-8 point or more difference from the polls, contradicting otherwise accurate exit polls.

* The software used in these voting machines is so sophisticated that you can't even check out the programming because it disappears leaving nothing to verify, no source code, no nothing.

Below are 3 articles explaining how these E-voting programs work. The man who published these articles is apparently an expert on this E-voting subject and a computer scientist.

Article 1
http://www.southbaymobilization.org/newsroom/
articles/04.0303.ADeafeningSilence_article.htm
Article 2
http://www.southbaymobilization.org/newsroom/
articles/04.0618.SecretAgentPrograms_article.htm
Article 3
http://www.southbaymobilization.org/newsroom/
articles/04.0701.EVoting_TheNewCloseUpMagic_article.htm

Another site takes the subject seriously...

http://www.rense.com/general59/steI.HTM

Highlight:

* SoCalDem has done a statistical analysis... ...on several swing states, and EVERY STATE that has EVoting but no paper trails has an unexplained advantage for Bush of around +5% when comparing exit polls to actual results.

* In EVERY STATE that has paper audit trails on their EVoting, the exit poll results match the actual results reported within the margin of error.

* Analysis of the polling data vs actual data and voting systems supports the hypothesis that evoting may be to blame in the discrepancies.

* The media was a bit taken aback that the results didn't match the exit polls AT ALL. Most of the commentators were scratching their head in disbelief at the results. The media has gracefully claimed they "just got it wrong."

Some examples?

WISCONSIN:

Kerry leads Female voters by 7%, Bush leads male voters by 7%. Male vs. Female voter turnout is 47% M, 53% F. That means Kerry statistically has a 7% edge in exit polling in Wisconsin.

Actual results however show Bush ahead by 1%, an unexplained difference of 8%.

NEVADA:

Kerry leads in the exit polls by a clear margin, but is still behind in the reported results. This state is even closer.

Actual is just 1% favor of Bush. Exit polls show Kerry with a wider margin. Women favored Kerry by 8% here out of 52% of total voters. Men favored Bush by just 6% out of 48% of total voters. Actual reported results don't match exit polling AT ALL in Nevada.

Easy Programming?

According to the programmer cited above here is how easy it is to "make magic" ...

We need COUNTERS - (B) = Bush; (K) = Kerry; (V) = Vote; (T) =Tally

1. If V = B, add 1 to B
2. If T = 8, add 1 to B; Clear T; Skip 3
3. If V = K, add 1 to K; Add 1 to T

This extremely simple bit of programming would shift 12% of the vote from Kerry to Bush, it would defy exit polls, and it would make it look like Bush had a huge popular win.

_____

Feel free to pass this on to your Republican and Democratic friends. If you are American, this should concern you regardless of who won this election or wins future elections. If your process is flawed your democracy is flawed and everything you believe in is on the line. I am sure that people on the ground are acting in good faith and voting according to their values and beliefs. It is the people at the top that concern me.



.....All of that stuff is pure nonsense and Neils is one sick focker. Florida had paper ballots in all of my county but some counties had punch cards or computers. It's not the same all throughout the individual states. The source of the info is just as sick as you are for posting it. Neils, you need to find some kind of life and for gods sake get laid or something. I think you may be on your way to schiophrenia. Ignore those voices you are hearing. And that pain in your ass was caused by the constant pounding you take it in, not because you were abducted by aliens and they probed you.

.....All of that stuff is pure nonsense and Neils is one sick focker. Florida had paper ballots in all of my county but some counties had punch cards or computers. It's not the same all throughout the individual states. The source of the info is just as sick as you are for posting it. Neils, you need to find some kind of life and for gods sake get laid or something. I think you may be on your way to schiophrenia. Ignore those voices you are hearing. And that pain in your ass was caused by the constant pounding you take it in, not because you were abducted by aliens and they probed you.

I didn't assert that it wasn't nonsense. In fact, I made two very clear disclaimers so that I wouldn't get attacked like this.

Someone asked "how long before the conspiracy theories..." Silly me, I thought he might like to see some of them.

All I did was answer a request. I never said it was true, never started a post saying anything was rigged, nothing. But if I run across something that someone has mentioned on the boards, I'll post it. Why the attacks?

the original post by Bombardier:

Yesterday, 05:38 PM #1
Bombardier
Contender
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Cubeville
Posts: 130 Points: 3975.00 (Donate) How long before the conspiracy theories...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...about Republican voter turnout start? I have to admit I was surprised that the "new voter" advantage that the Democrats normally enjoy did not play a factor here, while the Republicans were supposed so much better at "getting the vote out".

So what will the conspiracy theory be? Dubya got his brother to rig the vote in Florida? Hidden slush funds were used to bribe non-voters to get out to the polls? Right-wingers ran all-day keg parties to keep the students away? What will it be?

My initial answer,with a disclaimer that I wasn't asserting that it was true, but was specifically answering the question

http://www.prisonplanet.com/article...04votefraud.htm
(then I printed the article)
http://infowars.com/print/election/screen_shots.htm
(then I printed the article)

the disclaimer

keep in mind I didn't start a post that said "The republicans stole the election..."

But since you asked about the conspiracy theories, I thought I'd link some. I heard about the identical vote count when Jones was on Coast to Coast AM with George Noory last night overnight, so don't post replies about how I'm a "sore loser"

I didn't even vote; I don't like Mr. Bush, but didn't exactly endorse Kerry either. I didn't feel there was a candidate worth a damn this year...


today I found a couple more, so I added them - prefaced with another disclaimer, so as not to rile up guys such as yourself

Remember, these aren't my views, but responding to the original poster, I'm sure many of you will find these articles interesting:

then I posted the links followed by the articles

http://www.rense.com/general59/kerry.htm
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won_.php
http://www.rense.com/general59/rig.htm

Perhaps your problem isn't with me for addressing Bombardier's question, but your problem is with the fact that you disagree with the information. OK, fine. I'm not even arguing with you. Geez, if techn9ne can try to get along with Sonny, surely you can quit jumping on anyone who posts something or asserts something that hits a nerve with you...

The whole alien and get laid stuff is pretty lame, too. I'm married with two children and have never made a UFO or alien reference in 900 plus posts on these boards...

I didn't assert that it wasn't nonsense. In fact, I made two very clear disclaimers so that I wouldn't get attacked like this.

Someone asked "how long before the conspiracy theories..." Silly me, I thought he might like to see some of them.

All I did was answer a request. I never said it was true, never started a post saying anything was rigged, nothing. But if I run across something that someone has mentioned on the boards, I'll post it. Why the attacks?


...fair enough, I went back and read your disclaimer. I still think you buy into that **** and if you didn't you wouldn't have posted it. Sorry for the intense attack I'm just tired of seeing stupid **** posted uder the premise of it being factual data. If you weren't on web sites that believed all that crap then you wouldn't have found it. I know your not gay or an alien buff I was just making a point that these stories hold about as much water as alien abductions. :)

...fair enough, I went back and read your disclaimer. I still think you buy into that **** and if you didn't you wouldn't have posted it. Sorry for the intense attack I'm just tired of seeing stupid **** posted uder the premise of it being factual data. If you weren't on web sites that believed all that crap then you wouldn't have found it. I know your not gay or an alien buff I was just making a point that these stories hold about as much water as alien abductions. :)

i was abducted. and you cannot prove otherwise.

Bush won THIS ONE fair and square.

That being said I would like to see a smarter/safer voting system in place. The fact that some voters had to wait 5,6,7, hours in the rain to vote is ****ed up. As important as I think voting is I wouldn't wait that long, I've got a busy life and things I have to do. It's not difficult to believe that a lot of would be voters said "**** it, I'm not waiting in a 6 hour line."

I also think it is niave to believe that some extremeists on both sides don't attempt to fraud the system in their behalf. And yes I am concerned about electronic voting machines that don't leave a paper trail.

Again for some of you dumbass Repubs who have trouble reading. BUSH WON FAIR AND SQUARE AND DID NOT STEAL THIS ELECTION.

I just think it would be nice to have a voting system in place that is beyond reproach.

Bush won THIS ONE fair and square.

That being said I would like to see a smarter/safer voting system in place. The fact that some voters had to wait 5,6,7, hours in the rain to vote is ****ed up. As important as I think voting is I wouldn't wait that long, I've got a busy life and things I have to do. It's not difficult to believe that a lot of would be voters said "**** it, I'm not waiting in a 6 hour line."

I also think it is niave to believe that some extremeists on both sides don't attempt to fraud the system in their behalf. And yes I am concerned about electronic voting machines that don't leave a paper trail.

Again for some of you dumbass Repubs who have trouble reading. BUSH WON FAIR AND SQUARE AND DID NOT STEAL THIS ELECTION.

I just think it would be nice to have a voting system in place that is beyond reproach.


....you have a point. However, some of those people that waited for hours were here in Florida on the fraud coast(MIami area). It was really their own fault because we had early voting for like two weeks prior to the election. They may have waited an hour tops for the early voting and they could have gone anytime they wanted. On election day at my polling location we walked right in, showed our ID, signed by our names and went to a booth and voted. It has never been busy at our polling place and we knew that going in. The entire process took less than 5 minutes. In areas that aren't so fortunate they should come up with a better system that doesn't have people waiting in line for hours on end. Or those people should be smart enough to know that it will busy on election day and to take advantage of early voting. I think early voting will become common place in the future.

An interesting follow-up to this old thread:

http://itpolicy.princeton.edu/voting/

Security Analysis of the Diebold AccuVote-TS Voting Machine
Ariel J. Feldman, J. Alex Halderman, and Edward W. Felten

Abstract This paper presents a fully independent security study of a Diebold AccuVote-TS voting machine, including its hardware and software. We obtained the machine from a private party. Analysis of the machine, in light of real election procedures, shows that it is vulnerable to extremely serious attacks. For example, an attacker who gets physical access to a machine or its removable memory card for as little as one minute could install malicious code; malicious code on a machine could steal votes undetectably, modifying all records, logs, and counters to be consistent with the fraudulent vote count it creates. An attacker could also create malicious code that spreads automatically and silently from machine to machine during normal election activities — a voting-machine virus. We have constructed working demonstrations of these attacks in our lab. Mitigating these threats will require changes to the voting machine's hardware and software and the adoption of more rigorous election procedures.

HYPERLINKS ON THE PAGE INCLUDING A LINK TO THE RESEARCH PAPER

New documentary on the 2004 stolen election: http://eternalvigilance.us/index.html