View Full Version : what do you think of Sugar Ray Leonard?


INFAMOUZ
11-03-2004, 12:38 PM
Hear this guy has many haters. id like to hear why this is the case?

to me, he just had it all, speed, courage, heart and determination. he took on challenges, not all tho.

he avoided pryor, and he only fought hagler hwen he saw hagler was on his way down... but he did move up in weight.


and where do you rate him all time?

jabsRstiff
11-03-2004, 01:03 PM
Sugar Ray Leonard is one of the gretaest fighters ever (& this comes from a Hagler fan).

He didn't fight that much, & really spread his career out...BUT, there's no questioning his quality of opposition, & how he fared.


He was flawless inside the ring. He possessed everything a fighter needs.


He annoyed me with the way he manipulated things his way....but, he still got it done in the ring.

As for him avoiding pryor. That's a MYTH.
Pryor was too small for Ray, & Ray had bigger fish to fry (Hearns, Duran, & Hagler).

Pryor would have made some serious $$$ against Leonard, but would have been DESTROYED by Ray....contrary to what so many people say.

GxBrak
11-04-2004, 02:13 AM
should have changed name to raymond j. johnson..."you can call him ray or you can call him ray j..."

aaalex
11-04-2004, 07:11 AM
Sugar Ray Leonard is one of the gretaest fighters

I thing, that SRL is the greatest fighters...

realtim
11-04-2004, 09:01 AM
He's up there with the greats he competed in one of the greatest eras ever against top quality opposition. He's got my respect.

restless_438
11-07-2004, 05:33 AM
def. one of the GOAT

Supafly25
11-07-2004, 06:25 AM
Hear this guy has many haters. id like to hear why this is the case?

to me, he just had it all, speed, courage, heart and determination. he took on challenges

You just answered your own question, tall poppy syndrome. those things u listed r the reason he had so many haters, just like there are heaps of ODLH haters now.

I def reckon Sugar Ray Leonard is one of the G.O.A.T

marvdave
11-07-2004, 09:12 AM
Hear this guy has many haters. id like to hear why this is the case?

to me, he just had it all, speed, courage, heart and determination. he took on challenges, not all tho.

he avoided pryor, and he only fought hagler hwen he saw hagler was on his way down... but he did move up in weight.


and where do you rate him all time?

I am a Huge Hagler supporter, so SRL irritates me quite a bit. Having said that, he is one of the greatest fighters I;ve seen. Speed, heart, smarts and a little pop. By the way, the story of Leonard ducking Pryor is ridiculous. Pryor chased him trying to get a huge payday. Leonard didn't duck little Aaron Pryor. Pryor was a nice fighter, but is extremely overrated. He made his name beating up Old Arguello who had moved up from his best weight....oops, sorry, changed the subject didn't I? :D

marvdave
11-07-2004, 09:14 AM
should have changed name to raymond j. johnson..."you can call him ray or you can call him ray j..."

but you doesn't have to him..Johnson :D


great commercial!

No-Mas
11-07-2004, 10:58 AM
Sugar Ray Leonard is the worst thing boxing has ever produced.

- when Hagler yelled to Leonard, "Fight like a man!" Leonard said "No, no, no" and was happy to continue to run. Leonard himself tells that story and he is sickly proud of it.

- Leonard had an elaborate press conference at the Garden (with Hagler there) just to announce he will retire and not fight Hagler. Look at me, give me more and more attention, shine the spotlight on me, please mommy.

- Leonard lost his biggest fight of his career - Duran I.

- Leonard was very, very talented, but chose to win fights with silly flurries at the end of a round. Stealing the round they call it and moronic fans used to go crazy over it. Real fight fans used to spit at their TVs when Leonard pulled that crap.

- Leonard rigged the Hagler fight to favor him. Whatever happened to fighting a guy in his prime in a standard sized ring for fifteen rounds, Ray? Is that too much for you?

- Leonard was a girl in the ring, not a man

acquitted
11-07-2004, 11:33 AM
lenard was a good fighter..but his fights were boring as hell

rsl
11-07-2004, 12:02 PM
Sugar Ray Leonard is the worst thing boxing has ever produced.

- when Hagler yelled to Leonard, "Fight like a man!" Leonard said "No, no, no" and was happy to continue to run. Leonard himself tells that story and he is sickly proud of it.

- Leonard had an elaborate press conference at the Garden (with Hagler there) just to announce he will retire and not fight Hagler. Look at me, give me more and more attention, shine the spotlight on me, please mommy.

- Leonard lost his biggest fight of his career - Duran I.

- Leonard was very, very talented, but chose to win fights with silly flurries at the end of a round. Stealing the round they call it and moronic fans used to go crazy over it. Real fight fans used to spit at their TVs when Leonard pulled that crap.

- Leonard rigged the Hagler fight to favor him. Whatever happened to fighting a guy in his prime in a standard sized ring for fifteen rounds, Ray? Is that too much for you?

- Leonard was a girl in the ring, not a man
Dude, I see some of your points as to why you are disgusted with Leonard especially when he does his shoe-shinin' bit in fights, but it's still not as bad as Roy Jones Jr's version of shoe-shinin', but not giving Leonard any credit for the Duran fight is very biased, I mean he slugged it out with Duran throughout the whole fight and Roberto is one of the best sluggers of all-time, and Roberto Duran is one of my favorite fighters, but that fight could've really gone either way.

No-Mas
11-07-2004, 12:56 PM
but not giving Leonard any credit for the Duran fight is very biased
I will never give that little girl credit for anything other than I give him credit for introducing a feminine quality to winning in boxing. Ali danced around and floated like a butterfly, but at least he stung like a bee (just ask Big George Foreman). Leonard was a transexual (there are many of us who really believe he was born a girl and had a sex change) who flurried his way to victories.

Ask yourself: are you going to teach your son to smash faces when he gets into fights with kids at school or are you going to teach him to flurry? Do you want your child to Ray Leonard someone who picks on them or put a Jack Dempsey beating on someone who picks on them?

I have a really great fight library - hundreds of the greatest fights and samples of fights from the greatest fighters - and in that library I have not one, NOT ONE, Sugar Ray Leonard fight. In my mind he never existed.

hexman
11-07-2004, 01:09 PM
i think he was the most overated fighter in boxing history, and i think he lost the hagler fight.

cple
11-07-2004, 01:43 PM
As a person, i don't particularly like Ray Leonard, though i don't despise him either. He always wanted things his way: this number of rounds, this ring size, and especially, this amount of money, which was usually considerable. However, you can't deny the man's skill, talent, and most of all, his resume.

In the biggest fight of his career (Leonard-Hearns I), he was well behind on scorecards, but he sucked it up and went on to knockout Tommy. Some say it was premature (and i probably agree), but there was no denying that Hearns was done in that fight. Leonard deserves a lot of credit for that victory.

Ray is usually known for his speed and flair, but his power and killer instinct are a bit underrated, imo. He's one of the top 7-8 greatest fighters to ever live.

rsl
11-07-2004, 08:41 PM
I will never give that little girl credit for anything other than I give him credit for introducing a feminine quality to winning in boxing. Ali danced around and floated like a butterfly, but at least he stung like a bee (just ask Big George Foreman). Leonard was a transexual (there are many of us who really believe he was born a girl and had a sex change) who flurried his way to victories.

Ask yourself: are you going to teach your son to smash faces when he gets into fights with kids at school or are you going to teach him to flurry? Do you want your child to Ray Leonard someone who picks on them or put a Jack Dempsey beating on someone who picks on them?

I have a really great fight library - hundreds of the greatest fights and samples of fights from the greatest fighters - and in that library I have not one, NOT ONE, Sugar Ray Leonard fight. In my mind he never existed.So you don't have any SRL fights, how about Roy Jones Jr. fights?

No-Mas
11-07-2004, 08:59 PM
So you don't have any SRL fights, how about Roy Jones Jr. fights?
I have his two recent loses and the one fight where he knocks out that guy Glenn Kelly out with both hands behind his back. Those two KO loses and the hands behind the back trick are how I will remember Jones and what I will show my future grandchildren.

oldgringo
11-07-2004, 09:45 PM
I have his two recent loses and the one fight where he knocks out that guy Glenn Kelly out with both hands behind his back. Those two KO loses and the hands behind the back trick are how I will remember Jones and what I will show my future grandchildren.

You will be cheating them out of seeing many of the amazing things that RJJ accomplished.

No-Mas
11-07-2004, 10:07 PM
the amazing things that RJJ accomplished.
Oldgringo, I agree with you. I'm glad I lived through the Roy Jones reign and saw his amazing talent. Unfortunately, the guy was so good he really wasn't involved in any great fights. His greatest accomplishment - the heavyweight win - is no candidate for fight of the century and not up to the standards of my fight collection.
The guy was beyond great, but that doesn't mean he was in great fights.

loangunZ
11-07-2004, 10:14 PM
the glen kelly shot was pure talent and fast handspeed, ehh I don't really like Leonard I'm more of a haggler and hearns person, but he was a superior showman and alround great boxer.

cple
11-08-2004, 03:21 AM
Was the behind the back KO a result of Jones' talent or Kelly's lack there of and reluctance? Probably both.

wmute
11-13-2004, 02:43 AM
An all time great and a *****, all at the same time

I agree with both sides of the story.

just one thing duran had 70 or 80 fights before facing leonard and he was a natural (for 8 years...) lightweight, i think the fact that ppl think that srl was brave to go toe to toe with duran gives more credit to duran than to srl

KJ
11-20-2004, 11:46 AM
I think he lost the hagler fight. ;)

phallus
11-20-2004, 05:56 PM
i'm a hagler fan, so i really wanted him to beat SRL, for a long time i hated Ray Leonard ( i don't think i do anymore ), he's an arrogant mofo but as a fighter he's something special, on one of the very few worthy to call themsleves "Sugar" like the real Sugar - Ray Robinson

Xecutioner
11-22-2004, 10:08 PM
how anyone could watch leonard/duran I and not like ray leonard is beyond me. one of the greatest fights ever, and i scored it a draw

Cletus Funk
11-22-2004, 11:38 PM
To me he is THE greatest fighter that ever lived. He had unbelievable skills and I don't think anyone has had to fight and beat guys of the calibre that he did to get to the top.

Ivansmamma
11-23-2004, 05:53 AM
He ranks in top ten greatest of all time.

blackbelt2003
11-26-2004, 11:41 AM
Third greatest of all time, right behind Ray Robinson and Muhammad Ali.

His career was close to perfect. The only dodgy points were the draw with Hearns and the comebacks against Terry Norris and HEctor Camacho.


Everything else was marvellous, even the loss to Duran.


Black

realtim
11-29-2004, 10:46 AM
Hagler is higher than SRL for me.

Dynamite76
11-29-2004, 02:53 PM
People can say whatever they want about Ray Leonard and many of those things are true, but the man was an all-time great,especially during the 77-82 phase of his career, where he was entering his prime.It would have been nice to see him fight some of the youngbloods(Curry,McCory,Starling,Young), but sometimes those things happen.

plexmc
11-30-2004, 06:29 PM
Sugar Ray Leonard is one of the gretaest fighters ever (& this comes from a Hagler fan).

He didn't fight that much, & really spread his career out...BUT, there's no questioning his quality of opposition, & how he fared.


He was flawless inside the ring. He possessed everything a fighter needs.


He annoyed me with the way he manipulated things his way....but, he still got it done in the ring.

As for him avoiding pryor. That's a MYTH.
Pryor was too small for Ray, & Ray had bigger fish to fry (Hearns, Duran, & Hagler).

Pryor would have made some serious $$$ against Leonard, but would have been DESTROYED by Ray....contrary to what so many people say.
i feel u on that

foremanfan
12-07-2004, 07:12 PM
1/ Commercially very smart fighter.
2/ Great Boxer

Dynamite76
12-07-2004, 10:19 PM
1/ Commercially very smart fighter.
2/ Great Boxer

No truer words spoken.

Tha Greatest
12-08-2004, 08:00 PM
i hear leonard gave duran tha rematch 3 weeks notice and that he was trainin for months and had been plannin it for a long time, and they offered Duran lots of money n thats why Duran lost

he took so long to give tha hitman a rematch

and he lost by marvelous marvin hagler

BodysnatcherFan
12-12-2004, 11:04 AM
Huge puncher just look at Dave Boy Green KO. Would beat any welter ever except SRR.

BodysnatcherFan
12-12-2004, 11:05 AM
Also tremendous boxer the way he outpointed Benitez.

BodysnatcherFan
12-12-2004, 11:06 AM
Oh yeah, also, best jab in welter history he even knocked down Benitez with it and hurt everyone with it.

sssse
12-12-2004, 10:46 PM
Sugar Ray Leonard - superboxer!

cms
12-13-2004, 12:00 AM
i like sugar leonard

Mr. Violence
12-13-2004, 02:53 AM
sugar ray was great but I thought he loss to hagler...oh well i like them both anyway.

Hunna
12-13-2004, 05:29 AM
Leonard will always be remembered as a great fighter, but not the "greatest". SGL had alot of skills, but could not go toe-2-toe in my eyes. Look what happened when he tried to collide with Duran in the 1st fight. His speed and showmanship were a spectacle to watch.

Xecutioner
12-13-2004, 02:20 PM
what exactly happened when he went toe to toe with duran ? he lost on all cards by a single round and i had the fight a draw when leonard closed the show out in the 15th. i dont have a problem with duran winning because ray let his emotions get the best of him but when focused he could box circles around duran.

he beat hagler which is embarrassing to marvin the guy was retired and out of it. coming up to middleweight champ and out pointing him. this just proved how great he is. just because hagler wasnt getting hurt doesnt mean points arent scored. he bounced so many combination off that bowling ball head theres no way i can find 7 rounds that marvin won.

he lost the rematch to hearns, great fight, he showed a lot of heart almost stopping tommy in the 12.

jayrichardse
01-31-2005, 01:04 AM
i would say he is a good fighter

SonnyJ
02-02-2005, 12:59 AM
Cut the crap, he was a great fighter. but there are others who were better. he fought as a light-heavy for gods sake and still retained his speed.

SonnyJ
02-02-2005, 01:01 AM
sugar ray robinson is the all time greatest sugar. and mosely shouldn't even be considered.

ghostdancer
02-03-2005, 02:49 PM
there is no denying him as a boxer but for me it whent sour when he was allowed to fight hagler who i liked very much leonard had not earned the right at the weight but we cannot blame him for that blame the powers in boxing and it ain't the fighters

M26
02-03-2005, 03:04 PM
Arguably one of the top-ten greatest fighters of all time. Awesome in his prime. But the original 'Sugar' would have beaten him!

Lol999
02-03-2005, 04:27 PM
I watched the Hagler fight and I didn't like Leonards approach at all. No doubting his skill, but it's not the way I like my fighrts to fight. You could see the frustration pouring off Hagler. Leonard should have taken running shoes in with him.

Lol :D

Floydmayweather
02-03-2005, 04:34 PM
Leonard will always be remembered as a great fighter, but not the "greatest". SGL had alot of skills, but could not go toe-2-toe in my eyes. Look what happened when he tried to collide with Duran in the 1st fight. His speed and showmanship were a spectacle to watch.

Thats true but a fighter is defined by who he fights and how he does. I think Sugar is top 5 greatest of all time. ;)

xrhythmxnxbluesx
02-03-2005, 06:27 PM
he is one of the great ones... he brought alot of attention and excitement to boxing...

england4ever
02-08-2005, 08:52 PM
what i think is most astonishing abour leonard is that he won the light heavy weight title and either the light middle weight or the light welterweight title all in the same year. That takes some doing

Slipx
02-10-2005, 01:49 PM
beeatch did atlas really say that beard quote in your sig?

Mike Tyson Jr.
02-10-2005, 02:10 PM
Sugar Ray was one of the best
fighters ever. He didnt have much
power and was very fast.

Slipx
02-11-2005, 12:38 AM
ummm, spinal.

Imira
02-15-2005, 07:23 AM
Sugar Ray Leonard is the worst thing boxing has ever produced.

- when Hagler yelled to Leonard, "Fight like a man!" Leonard said "No, no, no" and was happy to continue to run. Leonard himself tells that story and he is sickly proud of it.

- Leonard had an elaborate press conference at the Garden (with Hagler there) just to announce he will retire and not fight Hagler. Look at me, give me more and more attention, ***** the spotlight on me, please mommy.

- Leonard lost his biggest fight of his career - Duran I.

- Leonard was very, very talented, but chose to win fights with silly flurries at the end of a round. Stealing the round they call it and moronic fans used to go crazy over it. Real fight fans used to spit at their TVs when Leonard pulled that crap.

- Leonard rigged the Hagler fight to favor him. Whatever happened to fighting a guy in his prime in a standard sized ring for fifteen rounds, Ray? Is that too much for you?

- Leonard was a girl in the ring, not a man

Hey, I'm a girl! Don't take your frustrations on Leonard out on me! :D While I don't agree with everything on your list, this is still funny stuff.

OliverNo1
02-15-2005, 08:28 AM
Must Confess I dont like SRL, didnt like his style either(Style over substance) - having said that maybe my Hearns Bias is clouding my judgement.......

adeelr
02-17-2005, 03:27 AM
amazing boxer, with amazing skills and determination, always had a plan on how to handle a fight. he outboxed hagler and Hearns and Duran, so you cant say that he didnt fight quality opposition. He was a complete fighter and i dont believe anyfighter today can match his ability at his prime, i also believe he would have beaten roy Jones in his prime at middleweight. He would have outboxed hopkins like he is nobody. He would frustrated Dela Hoya with his jab. He would made tito chase him all over the ring and then get him like he got Duran....

No-Mas
02-17-2005, 06:42 PM
Hey, I'm a girl! Don't take your frustrations on Leonard out on me!

Imira, sorry if you feel insulted if I lumped Leonard in with the girls. I feel insulted and shamed as a human being because Leonard is a fellow human being.

All these years later and that guy Leonard still gets me angry and crazy. He single-handedly ruined boxing. For Leonard it was all about being cute and safe in the ring -- flurries (oh, I hate that word).

Imira
02-18-2005, 12:58 AM
Imira, sorry if you feel insulted if I lumped Leonard in with the girls. I feel insulted and shamed as a human being because Leonard is a fellow human being.

All these years later and that guy Leonard still gets me angry and crazy. He single-handedly ruined boxing. For Leonard it was all about being cute and safe in the ring -- flurries (oh, I hate that word).

I wasn't insulted. ;) Just poking at you because you seemed really passionate. Do you have his fight with Camacho on tape? If you hate him that much, that fight should brighten your day. :p

Shaolin Bushido
02-18-2005, 02:22 AM
Leonard's an all-timer who DLH has patterned himself after career-wise. It's tough to do however as far as reproducing the same type of success(though he's a HOF'er too) because Leonard was just so talented. He always hedged his bets and used his influence when he could to get an edge but you really can't fault that. That's boxing for the most part. You may not like it as I don't but hey ....

Besides his physical gifts he had great desire and heart. Can't hate on Sugar Ray Leonard.

oldgringo
02-18-2005, 02:36 AM
Leonard's an all-timer who DLH has patterned himself after career-wise. It's tough to do however as far as reproducing the same type of success(though he's a HOF'er too) because Leonard was just so talented. He always hedged his bets and used his influence when he could to get an edge but you really can't fault that. That's boxing for the most part. You may not like it as I don't but hey ....

Besides his physical gifts he had great desire and heart. Can't hate on Sugar Ray Leonard.


You can hate on him for getting gifts from judges who had stars in their eyes everytime they watched him fight...ala Hagler fight and 2nd Hearns fight. I'll admit that the Hagler fight was close, but it really came down to the judges liking Rays pretty combinations that had 0 effect on Marvin. The Hearns draw was comparable to the robbery that Whitaker experienced against Chavez. I am not a fan of SRL by the way :D

jamezz
02-19-2005, 11:53 PM
Hear this guy has many haters. id like to hear why this is the case?

to me, he just had it all, speed, courage, heart and determination. he took on challenges, not all tho.

he avoided pryor, and he only fought hagler hwen he saw hagler was on his way down... but he did move up in weight.


and where do you rate him all time?

He was awesome,very well rounded and at times critisized for lack of power but in my opinion had more power than was credited for and proved it enough times.In boxing,only a small handfull of fighters per century come along with his calibre talent and too me this should be obvious because you just don't see boxers move with that kind of speed and grace so I rate him very high on the pound for pound greatest boxers of all time.

skillet54
06-29-2005, 01:47 AM
I watched the Hagler fight and I didn't like Leonards approach at all. No doubting his skill, but it's not the way I like my fighrts to fight. You could see the frustration pouring off Hagler. Leonard should have taken running shoes in with him.

Lol :D
true leonard was a skilled boxer...but he was handed too many decisions for being the media darling...and for being good for boxing's image!
judges are supposed to score for agression also...aren't they? my guess is that they did not in hagler/leonard. so yeah...i agree with you
leonard came in the ring with track shoes on...****es and all. because he knew if he ran all day and flurried the last ten seconds of a round
the judges...seeing eye dogs and canes...would give him rounds. so leonard could get his behind whooped for 2 min 50 seconds, then "flurrie" for 10 seconds and win the round. leonards name should not be mentioned in the same breath as sugar ray robinsons. if there was a way to retire the "sugar" moniker...it should've been done.

chopper77
06-29-2005, 03:15 PM
I gotta admit he had all the skills a guy needs to survive in the ring, but having said that, it's my opinion that he invented the hold out. He waited and waited between fights, and like what was already mentioned, he manipulated the game to suit him. I'm more of an old time fight guy. Archie Moore said if he fought once a month he ate hash, if he fought twice or three times, he could have steak. I think Ray was soft. Like No-Mas said, and I agree, that if you get your ass handed to you for 2:30 and then turn it on for the last :30 the round does not belong to you.

solo1bc
06-29-2005, 03:59 PM
I can't believe people don't give him the credit that he deserves... Sure he was the media darling but so was OLH...

He had speed, skill, strength, heart and a chin in his prime..

If you move up a weight to fight Marvellous Marvin your not SUPPOSED to stand and slug it out with him, your SUPPOSED to do what you have to win the fight... Same with Duran II... People say he ran but unless you're Duran's clone your supposed to dance if you're in the ring with that nutter!

Re Hearns too then SRL actually admits that he lost that fight despite what the judges said so the guys got dignity as well...

He get's the most credit for me because he managed his own career as well... He made millions basically off his own back a bit like Lennox Lewis (I'm a fan of Lennox too!) as opposed to people like Tyson who had millions handed to him and then pissed it all away...

SRL was a great fighter and a great fighter to watch...

Not to mention he had as much skill and hand speed as anyone in the last 50 years but wasn't an arrogant bastard about ala Mayweather etc.

puppy_dogg
06-29-2005, 04:02 PM
the golden boy of palmer park, maryland? do you even have to ask

G.O.A.T.....period.

TheBrownBomber22
06-29-2005, 04:12 PM
Sugar Ray Leonard is one of my all time favourite fighters.

Boxclever
06-29-2005, 04:22 PM
Sugar Ray Leonard is one of my all time favourite fighters.

Me too, absolutely brilliant, fantastic. :)

abright1
07-02-2005, 08:24 AM
but do not belong anywhere near the tops of greatest IN-THE-RING performers (but PRE-suspension Ali definitely does)...

R-Leonard does not belong being mentioned anywhere near the same sentence as "real deal" contemporaries such as Hagler, Duran, Pedrosa, Pryor, Arguello, Sanchez or many other who clearly dominated their division for years...Leonard--after Hearns turned his face into ground-round and detached his retina--never had a "career" to speak of...just a series of lucrative media stunts

Skillet, NoMas...you guys got your heads screwed on right

Chups
07-03-2005, 04:30 AM
One of the greatest!!

Boxclever
07-07-2005, 03:29 PM
Just a fantastic fighter, one of my all time fave's

hellfire508
07-07-2005, 11:40 PM
LEGEND. What a fighter. He is third on my P4P list, behind only SRR and Henry Armstrong.

anwaryussuf81
07-11-2005, 09:40 PM
Sugar Ray Leanard was a great fighter. He beat Hagler, Hearns and Duran. Those are 3 of the best fighters at his time and all 3 guys that he beat were champions.

abright1
07-12-2005, 10:38 PM
..........

abright1
07-13-2005, 03:29 AM
Anyone else here who just CANNOT bring themselves to pin a badge that just ain't deserved...despite all the "super hero"-like bedtime stories, this guy NEVER convincingly dominated ANY weightclass for ANY extended period(in the same way that, say, Duran/Pedrosa/Hagler/Pryor/Arguello/Sanchez/Whitaker/Toney/Jones/Hopkins to name just a few held extended (ie. many defences over many years) "reigns of terror" over their divisions.

Truth is, his boxing career WAS ended by Hearns in a pyrrhic (google that word...it's perfect here) "victory" over Hearns...What remains is a series of well-orchestrated, very lucrative, media-stunt show-matches (eg. after he--with the help of "beauty contest watching" judges WAS GIVEN...again, can't say the word...the decision over Hagler...he defended not even once--why should he, he pulled his stunt...pretend retire again... and start fishing for the next big money "event".

I bless whatever lord determines what becomes legend that it has never become popular for people to refer to him as the last unified middleweight before Hopkins--technically he took Hagler's titles--but as he had no intention of ever defending them and did nothing with them...(I'm afraid to even mention this...all the RL fanboys will start referring to him as a great middleweight-division-unifying champ...with ZERO defences...)

RL was a great boxing talent/all-time great showman...but he never dominated a division as a full-time boxer. He was also super-smart...smart enought that after Hearns '82 his career really was over...but he proceeded to make amazing amounts of money and build up an amazing amount of mystique with surprisingly little risk, largely thru weilding his marketing muscle to manipulate the configuration of fights (eg. the big-money bonus to force a 200#-plus celebrating-like-Maradonna Duran to lose 50 pounds in just weeks..."no mas"="no gas", the super large "running track" which he used to AVOID fighting Hagler). Each successful stunt was, of course followed by a faking-retirement period/fishing-for-next-big-payday phase. And like suckers to a carnival, the public kept eating up all this.

But serious fans don't buy it for a minute. They know this greatest-of-all-time-manager-of-his-own-"career" belongs not in the same ring with the likes of Armstrong or the two I mention below. (Outside the ring's a completely different story...poor old Henry died washing dishes...but IN-THE-RING, don't tarnish the memory of the many who did legitimately dominate their divisions for years on a full-time basis, by letting this poser leap-frog them unfairly in our memory.)

hellfire508
07-13-2005, 04:57 AM
Are you a real boxing fan? With a post like that I really doubt it. Regardless of your liking for the man, EVERY true fan admits how great SRL was. Definately top 5 p4p ever IMHO.

abright1
07-13-2005, 05:40 AM
I'm with you 100%...if you're talking about Benny, or Robinson (before my time)...or Pedrosa, or lw-Duran, or Hagler, or Arguello, or Pryor, or Sanchez, or Holmes, or Tyson, or Whitaker, or Toney, or Jones, or Hopkins...serious sustained careers with sustained multi-defence reigns...look at RL's record (and pay attention to the time between his cherry-picked stunts...only exception was the quik Duran rematch--cause it suited the media-darling on this occasion)...after Hearns '82 hamburger-ized his face and detached his retina--he dropped in, only as he pleased, and always on his terms, for special lucrative "events"--he sustained no career to speak of...IN THE RING...

I give him top of the charts OUTSIDE the ring...but his best stint was as a welter, ending with a career-ending victory.

To set the record straight...it is a shame for both Leonard and Hearns that these two talents came along at the same time. Under normal circumstances, either would be division-dominating monsters. What happened was like Hagler and Hopkins comin' along at the same time...But be that as it may, Leonard never even dominated his natural weight class--he won the fight/a title but lost his career doing it...he never had the chance to run up a division-dominating career, so he resorted to becoming a media-darling cash-cow urban-legend by pulling a number of well-remembered cherry-picked stunt fights (capturing a few titles...most/all of which he never defended...cause he went into "retire and fish-for-next-big payday legend-building stunt fight")

Look at his fight by fight record after '82...how few times he fought...how he never/seldom he defended any titles he accumulated

Anybody talking about post-suspension-Ali and Leonard like they're goddam comic-book heroes is either under 40 or learned everything they know about them from reading articles in People magazine or articles by today's experts who are either under 40 or learned...

TheEvilSaint
07-14-2005, 10:30 AM
hes overrated. heres why:
every fighter he fought gave him a good fight or a mean thrashing, meaning he couldnt win decisively.
he retired 5 times.
he was a coke-head.
he was an alcoholic.
he was ridiculously inactive his whole career.
he wouldnt give marvin hagler a rematch.
he sold out to as many companies as he could.
he had two types of fighting: piddy paddy and run or piddy paddy really fast and hope the ref stops it.
he cheated his camp members out of their money by not sending out any christmas bonuses.
and after terry norris handed him his ass, he just HAD to try another comeback against hector camacho and got TKOd at the age of 40.

after all that, how can u consider ray leonard a great fighter?

uncle_rico
07-14-2005, 10:57 AM
hes overrated. heres why:
every fighter he fought gave him a good fight or a mean thrashing, meaning he couldnt win decisively.
he retired 5 times.
he was a coke-head.
he was an alcoholic.
he was ridiculously inactive his whole career.
he wouldnt give marvin hagler a rematch.
he sold out to as many companies as he could.
he had two types of fighting: piddy paddy and run or piddy paddy really fast and hope the ref stops it.
he cheated his camp members out of their money by not sending out any christmas bonuses.
and after terry norris handed him his ass, he just HAD to try another comeback against hector camacho and got TKOd at the age of 40.

after all that, how can u consider ray leonard a great fighter?

you pointed out alot of things that show, as a person,
he's a complete jerk off. but as a fighter?
c'mon man, he was sick.
i mean, he shoulda lost to hagler.
regardless of points, you can't take hagler's titles the way leonard did,
that was a disgrace.
I believe if he lost to hagler people would say, wow,
this guy came out of nowhere and went 12 rounds with hagler.
i think a loss to hagler would have actually helped leonard in
the eyes of the fans.
so, i think he'd have less haters if he at least lost to hagler
and he def shoulda lost to hearns, that draw was bull****.

so, he's definitely a little *****, a total prick as a person (definitely not a guy i'd have a beer and watch a game with) but still he was an all time great.

TheEvilSaint
07-14-2005, 11:02 AM
hes overrated. heres why:
every fighter he fought gave him a good fight or a mean thrashing, meaning he couldnt win decisively.
he retired 5 times.
he was a coke-head.
he was an alcoholic.
he was ridiculously inactive his whole career.
he wouldnt give marvin hagler a rematch.
he sold out to as many companies as he could.
he had two types of fighting: piddy paddy and run or piddy paddy really fast and hope the ref stops it.
he cheated his camp members out of their money by not sending out any christmas bonuses.
and after terry norris handed him his ass, he just HAD to try another comeback against hector camacho and got TKOd at the age of 40.

after all that, how can u consider ray leonard a great fighter?
AND he moved up in weight to blatantly avoid fighting aaron pryor.

abright1
07-17-2005, 06:15 PM
AND he moved up in weight to blatantly avoid fighting aaron pryor.

...and did whatever he could to make sure he never faced Benitez or Hearns <till MUCH later...as another goddam stunt...and with the usual sort of glamor-boy favoring judges that always accompanied this media-machine...resulting in that disgusting "decision"> or Hagler ever again...and that he never faced McCallum at all...and that when he faced Duran he used his million-dollar clout to hurry the fight date so that a 200#-plus partying-like-Maradona Duran had just weeks to lose 50-pounds ("no mas"="no gas")

...And they called Bill Clinton "slick".

In addition to the type of judges characteristic of the Hagler and Hearns II tragedies , ole' RL always had referees ready to jump in and call TKO's in his favor on the basis of hand-speed-demonstrating patty-cake flurries that packed surprisingly little damage. Watch his "stoppages" of Kalule and Benitez and Hearns and you see what I mean...Contrast that to when Hearns or Hagler stopped you--you woke up somewhere else.

Most things considered, I rate him AT BEST on par with Hearns as an all-time Welter (but not p4p) greats...both below Armstrong (who also belongs high on any sensible p4p list) , of course. But when you include a serious comparison of these two on the basis of "durability" and "work-ethic" demonstrated throughout their careers, The Hit Man whips his over-rated, overly-helped- by-officiating, manipulative, guest-starring ass.

Now add in the "entertainment" factor. Hearns--when confronted by that all-time p4p monster, Hagler (that NEITHER of the really belonged in the ring with), gave us 9 of the most entertaining minutes in the history of the game. "*****" Ray Leonard's manipulation of the fight configuration gave us a goddam running track so Leonard could AVOID fighting...giving us 36 of the most painful minutes in the game. He either patty-cake "flurried" to "steal" rounds or ran or clinched like Ruiz does now. (Watch all 3 of the Duran "classics" and you see almost as much clinching initiated by RL as we get pissed off at Ruiz for...compare that to how Hearns attacked the same foe.)

(BTW, LW-Duran is an all-time p4p great...but the welter-Duran was a way-past-prime blown-up version looking for some serious paydays--way more attractive to *****-Ray to come out of retirement for than giving well-deserved rematches to either Benitez or Hearns. Max $$$/minimum risk. And after he properly lost the decision...and found out how out of shape "Hands of Stone" had become in the time after the fight, he took full advantage of his marketing clout to swing the odds substantially, as I mentioned before.)

So, LW-Duran and Hagler both deserve SUBSTANTIALLY higher placement than R.Leonard on any all-time p4p list...and Thomas Hearns deserves to be ranked AT LEAST as high on any all-time list (welter or p4P). Including "durability", "work ethic", "sustainability of career", and "downright entertainment value of his fights"--all IN-THE-RING criteria--sway it for the HitMan. Leonard has unfortunately and unfairly benefited from primarily OUTSIDE-THE-RING considerations in which he ruled supreme--"charisma" or "personality" or "marketability" issues--accounting for his "knee-jerk" inclusion high on p4p lists.

Sad, isn't it that so many boxing fans are snowed by it. Even sadder for many now-forgotten true greats with vastly superior in-the-ring careers when Leonard is preferentially leap-frogged past them on the basis of his considerable outside-the-ring attributes. Too many hot-summer-night "stories" have been told on the porches over the last few decades by non-real-boxing-fan dads to their children and its burned an overly-intense image of this guy's greatness into our collective psyche. BUT the real boxing fan must make him stand in line where he belongs. In evaluating careers, we're right to marvel at "sizzle"...but not at the expense of the "steak".

So, to summarize Ray Leonard's place in history, setting aside outside-the-ring "sizzle" and evaluating only on the basis of "inside-the-ring" steak.....He's clearly an all-time welter AT or BEHIND Hearns...but any p4p-list that puts him above Hagler or Duran...well, let's just say GWB could make a better case that Iraq was a serious threat to the USA's national security.

Prize_Fighter2K5
07-18-2005, 11:20 AM
Surgur ray lenord was a great fighter and also quick and talented like when he beat Marvin Hagler, he was on top of his game...

Boxclever
07-18-2005, 03:35 PM
Brilliant fighter, one of my all time fave's. :)

Scottie2Hottie
09-02-2005, 05:04 PM
i dont like leonard, but this is coming from a very big and very bitter marvin hagler fan.

strongisland24
09-02-2005, 05:26 PM
speed, agility, heart, lot of pop for a little guy

abyrvalg
09-10-2005, 04:26 PM
one of the greatest, and his fights were great

Dempsey 1919
11-09-2005, 12:31 AM
he had no choice but to be great. the greatest's (ali) trainer angelo dundee was leonard's trainer. it was a slam dunk!

seb
11-11-2005, 05:54 PM
SRL was a good fighter, although I can't stand his personality and his self obsorbing commentation.

As a fighter, without a doubt had skills, however when he fought
Hagler it was all fluff and showmanship. His clame to beating
Hagler was his ability to steal the limelight. He sure had Judge
Jose Guerro fooled (or so I assume), who scored the fight 118-110. At least Lou Filippo and Dave Moretti scored it close, respectively 113-115 and 115-113. SRL could not hurt the Marvelous One. In that fight SRL was more of an amateur than a
professional.

Thanks for listening!
Keep your hand up and your chin down!
SEB

KingAbdullah
11-16-2005, 07:47 AM
Hi everyone! some may know me from other forums. here I am KingAbdullah but i am really of Redrooster fame so you know there is no deception coming from me.

I may seem extreme but I bring up good points.

Too many people excuse him saying these things hapen. his fans give him too much slack. he is a talented fighter but I have seen better.

Question: why did he wait so long to fight Hagler?

Why so long to give Tommy and Duran rematches? Tommy was coming off his worst performance. Did anyone see his fight with Kinchen? he was dreadful!!

i'm sorry, but the timing of his fights with Tommy and marvin looks very suspicious to me with marvin already looking quite ragged in his previous performance and then retiring. Fighters don't retire unless they know they are unable to perform.

I just think he should have been straight with the public instead of throwing a fake retirement bash in 82, bringing Hagler in the ring just to tell everyone it wasn't going to happen.

What he should have done was stay retired or keep fighting. maybe hav a few tuenups and shoot for his old title.

KingAbdullah
11-16-2005, 07:44 PM
leonard fans had enough time but I have to think they couldn't come up with an answer that wouldn't be embarrassing to Leonard.

That means myself and the others who have a rather low opinion of leonard are right all along. I have this same problem at other forums.No one puts a decent debate to defend him.

KingAbdullah
11-16-2005, 07:47 PM
Surgur ray lenord was a great fighter and also quick and talented like when he beat Marvin Hagler, he was on top of his game...

that's because he waited for Hagler to reach the bottom of his game before facing him.

Remember; leonard challenged Hagler and Hagler accepted but refused to take a fightwith him years before the novelty wore off.

Da Iceman
11-16-2005, 08:05 PM
leonard was kind of like butterfly1964 he's aight

KingAbdullah
11-21-2005, 09:25 AM
As a person, i don't particularly like Ray Leonard, though i don't despise him either. He always wanted things his way: this number of rounds, this ring size, and especially, this amount of money, which was usually considerable. However, you can't deny the man's skill, talent, and most of all, his resume.

In the biggest fight of his career (Leonard-Hearns I), he was well behind on scorecards, but he sucked it up and went on to knockout Tommy. Some say it was premature (and i probably agree), but there was no denying that Hearns was done in that fight. Leonard deserves a lot of credit for that victory.

Ray is usually known for his speed and flair, but his power and killer instinct are a bit underrated, imo. He's one of the top 7-8 greatest fighters to ever live.

No he isn't.

KingAbdullah
11-21-2005, 09:48 AM
amazing boxer, with amazing skills and determination, always had a plan on how to handle a fight. he outboxed hagler and Hearns and Duran, so you cant say that he didnt fight quality opposition. He was a complete fighter and i dont believe anyfighter today can match his ability at his prime, i also believe he would have beaten roy Jones in his prime at middleweight. He would have outboxed hopkins like he is nobody. He would frustrated Dela Hoya with his jab. He would made tito chase him all over the ring and then get him like he got Duran....

He couldn't even beat norris. How's he going to handle Roy?
beat Roy Jones at 160. Is that why he defended his title? I dare you to answer that for me.

Face it. Leonard fans like to spout off how great he was but when it comes down to it, they can't defend his ass for ****.

KingAbdullah
11-21-2005, 09:57 AM
All you Leonard fans out there know you're going to get killed if you reply. You're too timid and don't know enough and don't want to get embarassed.

So the leonard detractors have the last say without his fans even putting up a fight.

Heckler
11-21-2005, 06:30 PM
GREAT BOXERS, TOUGH BOXERS fight the best WHEN they are the best and will never back down. Ali, Marciano, Frazier... they would never turn a match down, and wouldn't back down to ANYONE.. thats how boxing should be. I think OLD PAST HIS PRIME hagler beat leonard as that was a bit of a bull**** descision... can't stand SRL flurrys... and the fact he was an attention seeking showpony.

j
11-21-2005, 06:42 PM
great boxer. not much of a power puncher, but had great skills. should've lost to hagler, and did lose to my man the hitman.

what was it hagler was saying to sugar in that fight, something like "come on, fight like a man you *****." leonard was like "nope". absolutely hilarious.

KingAbdullah
11-24-2005, 03:35 PM
what i think is most astonishing abour leonard is that he won the light heavy weight title and either the light middle weight or the light welterweight title all in the same year. That takes some doing

I could see why Leonard was more interested in fighting Lalonde than defending his titleagainst legitiate opposition. Picking up two titles in one night against a tomato can.

KingAbdullah
11-24-2005, 04:01 PM
what exactly happened when he went toe to toe with duran ? he lost on all cards by a single round and i had the fight a draw when leonard closed the show out in the 15th. i dont have a problem with duran winning because ray let his emotions get the best of him but when focused he could box circles around duran.

he beat hagler which is embarrassing to marvin the guy was retired and out of it. coming up to middleweight champ and out pointing him. this just proved how great he is. just because hagler wasnt getting hurt doesnt mean points arent scored. he bounced so many combination off that bowling ball head theres no way i can find 7 rounds that marvin won.

he lost the rematch to hearns, great fight, he showed a lot of heart almost stopping tommy in the 12.

it's too bad I came to this site so late and you don't post anymore. :D Where are all the supporters now?


Leonard looked early on that his chin was not very solid. If you had his 1979 fight with marcos Geraldo which you don't, you'd see it. it was really a big turn off to see how easily Leonard got shaken. Marcos, a slapper clipped him on the chin with a right hand and his legs went in different directions at once. This happened twice more in the third round the last time with a straight left that knocked Leonard stumbling straight back into the ropes (similar to what Camacho did in their fight). It even happened in the same round!

Leonard just could never take a sudden jolt to the chin very well.

i might have excused him for it but in the first Duran fight, it happened again! The second round he was caught by Duran's left and he just couldn't hide the fact that he was hurt as he was sent staggering into the ropes. I mean, it threw his whole game plan off and he lost a decision.

i could see why he had to wait five whole years for Hagler to decline. Fighting a man without reflexes greatly reduced his chances of getting hurt.

Leonard did great so long as he was fighting past their prime relics in their 30's. Like Duran in uno mas. Slow, pudgy, short armed Duran, with nothing but his past reputation from the 70's and carrying 37 years on him but put him in with 23 year old,lean and mean (even a huge underdog like Norris) and watch how easily he comes apart.

Leonard was a total bust against legit competition. that's why avoided Hagler in early 80's, and hearns in mid 80's. he'd rather fight the likes of lalonde and Duran instead of Nunn, mcCallum, Jackson.

SugaShane
11-24-2005, 04:43 PM
Sugar Ray Leonard is the worst thing boxing has ever produced.

- when Hagler yelled to Leonard, "Fight like a man!" Leonard said "No, no, no" and was happy to continue to run. Leonard himself tells that story and he is sickly proud of it.

- Leonard had an elaborate press conference at the Garden (with Hagler there) just to announce he will retire and not fight Hagler. Look at me, give me more and more attention, shine the spotlight on me, please mommy.

- Leonard lost his biggest fight of his career - Duran I.

- Leonard was very, very talented, but chose to win fights with silly flurries at the end of a round. Stealing the round they call it and moronic fans used to go crazy over it. Real fight fans used to spit at their TVs when Leonard pulled that crap.

- Leonard rigged the Hagler fight to favor him. Whatever happened to fighting a guy in his prime in a standard sized ring for fifteen rounds, Ray? Is that too much for you?

- Leonard was a girl in the ring, not a man
Leonard chose to fight with flurries because his hands were really brittle and he had to ice them everyday. He was the most talented fighter ever, even moreso then Roy Jones Jr and Floyd Mayweather.

SugaShane
11-24-2005, 04:44 PM
great boxer. not much of a power puncher, but had great skills. should've lost to hagler, and did lose to my man the hitman.

what was it hagler was saying to sugar in that fight, something like "come on, fight like a man you *****." leonard was like "nope". absolutely hilarious.
You're an idiot.

fabulous
11-26-2005, 05:44 AM
lenard was a good fighter..but his fights were boring as hell

Better admit you haven't seen even one. Man has RJJ in his avatar and says that Leonard fights were boring? If Leonard would have fought like chicken stylist RJJ he wouldn't made even million for whole career.
Only boring fight from Leonard I remember was Uno mas.

KingAbdullah
11-26-2005, 09:34 AM
leonard-hagler, leonard-kalule, leonard-benitez

one was just as boring as the other.

fabulous
11-26-2005, 02:46 PM
leonard-hagler, leonard-kalule, leonard-benitez

one was just as boring as the other.

why you watch boxing anyway if it is boring!?

You probably should stick to goat-ball(game they play in afganistan) more :D

KingAbdullah
11-26-2005, 10:46 PM
Why do so many people watch the superbowl when so many of them are busts?


By the way, I'm not really a King. I have no ties to anyone that ever came form the middle east at all.

It's a username stupid!!

TuPrincipe
11-27-2005, 03:01 AM
Leonard's achievments will always be overshadowed by his reluctance to fight like a man (Duran, Hagler). He was a great fighter, but his wins had alot of controversey.

IM SO TIRED!

Tha Greatest
11-27-2005, 03:14 AM
Leonard's achievments will always be overshadowed by his reluctance to fight like a man (Duran, Hagler). He was a great fighter, but his wins had alot of controversey.

IM SO TIRED!
Great post...

TuPrincipe
11-27-2005, 03:18 AM
Great post...

I sense a bit of sarcasm there..

Tha Greatest
11-27-2005, 03:28 AM
I sense a bit of sarcasm there..
No, seriously...

Why would you think that?

Sugar Ray Leonard waited for Hagler to be SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO old before fighting him, either way, Leonard is one of the greatest fighters to ever walk this planet, but if he fought a younger Hagler and WON(which is unlikely), imagine where he would be right now...

Not that he isn't anywhere great right now..

TuPrincipe
11-27-2005, 03:34 AM
No, seriously...

Why would you think that?

Sugar Ray Leonard waited for Hagler to be SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO old before fighting him, either way, Leonard is one of the greatest fighters to ever walk this planet, but if he fought a younger Hagler and WON(which is unlikely), imagine where he would be right now...

Not that he isn't anywhere great right now..

Hagler was partly to blame although I felt He really won that fight. If Hagler didn't give away those first 3 rounds, He would of had that fight in the bag.

Hagler allowed himself to be manipulated and He payed for it. The funny thing is, it took his entire career for someone to find a blueprint to beat him. Hagler was at his worst when He wasn't counter-punching, and when He had to be a very aggressive fighter that dictated the pace.

Leonard reminds me alot of DLH. Great fighter, but they both have no balls. They haven't given rematches they're entire career even when they don't win clear-cut decisions, and they both are fake.

TuPrincipe
11-27-2005, 03:34 AM
I'm really tired right now, I can barely think straight. I think it's time for me to go to bed soon.

Tha Greatest
11-27-2005, 03:44 AM
Hagler was partly to blame although I felt He really won that fight. If Hagler didn't give away those first 3 rounds, He would of had that fight in the bag.

Hagler allowed himself to be manipulated and He payed for it. The funny thing is, it took his entire career for someone to find a blueprint to beat him. Hagler was at his worst when He wasn't counter-punching, and when He had to be a very aggressive fighter that dictated the pace.

Leonard reminds me alot of DLH. Great fighter, but they both have no balls. They haven't given rematches they're entire career even when they don't win clear-cut decisions, and they both are fake.
Man!

Great minds think alike!

Hearns was beating Leonard! but Leonard won by TKO...
Then Leonard didn't give him a rematch for 8 years!

Leonard pissed me off..

TuPrincipe
11-27-2005, 03:50 AM
Man!

Great minds think alike!

Hearns was beating Leonard! but Leonard won by TKO...
Then Leonard didn't give him a rematch for 8 years!

Leonard pissed me off..

It was a legitimate win for Ray but the fact that Hearns was so top-heavy really hurt him. That coupled with the fact that Steward was his trainer.

Hearns seemed overtrained that fight (which is what Steward is known for doing to his fighters).

Barn
08-14-2010, 09:35 AM
Bump lol excellent thread even though it's ancient.