This is a match up that i haven't seen on here yet. I would probably learn towards a Hearns decision but Robinson is definitely capable of pulling a Ray Leonard.

This is a match up that i haven't seen on here yet. I would probably learn towards a Hearns decision but Robinson is definitely capable of pulling a Ray Leonard.

Sugar Ray Robinson-

Power 9.0
speed 10
quickness 9.0
agility 9.5
stamina 9.5
footwork 9.5
defence 8.5
intelligence 10
jab 8.5
left hand 10
right hand 9.0
countering 9.5
combinations 10
hand speed 9.5
body 8.5
chin 9.5
endurence 9.5
punch acc. 9.5
cuts 8.5
heart 10

Tommy Hearns-

Power 10
speed 8.5
quickness 8.0
agility 8.5
stamina 9.0
footwork 8.5
defence 7.5
intelligence 9.0
jab 9.5
left hand 8.5
right hand 10
countering 8.5
combinations 8.5
hand speed 8.5
body 8.0
chin 8.0
endurence 8.5
punch acc. 9.0
cuts 9.0
heart 10

I like Sugar Ray over any welter ever, including Tommy Hearns. However, Hearns had a slight height advantage and a half-foot reach advantage, tough matchup for Sugar.

It's gameover in the 5th round of this chessmatch.
TKO 5 SRR

It's gameover in the 5th round of this chessmatch.
TKO 5 SRR

I can not disagree because Robinson had everything that Leonard had and maybe even more, but most importantly the stamina. He would possibly be able to out last Hearns while trailing on the cards. The thing that has me leaning towards Hearns is the fact that a consistent jab has always troubled Robinson and fighters that were effective in their pressure and Hearns showed this in his fight with Leonard and Ceuvas. While his( Robinson's) defense was not bad, he was not a Wille Pep and was hit often. Pound for pound, Hearns would be the hardest puncher and certainly the most gifted. Hearns is the better boxer, better puncher and a size and reach advantage and their speed is debatable. It would be interesting.

Hearns is the only fighter I can see beating Robinson at Welter.

Robinson would do what Leonard did but earlier. I don't favour ANY welter over Robinson ever.

Robinson would do what Leonard did but earlier. I don't favour ANY welter over Robinson ever.

I personally can't see Robinson getting to Hearns while Hearns still has gas left and is still fresh. He would have to break Hearns down they way Leonard did and try to up the pressure late. Until that point, Hearns would be laying it on him IMO.

It depends on which Robinson shows up. If the fight is at a tactical standpoint, then Hearns would clearly have the advantage due to his superior technical ability and size advantage. If he forces Hearns to fight and brings the fight to him, then he should and most likely would get Hearns out in the late rounds.

Slicksouth paw....Let me help you out. I love Leoanrd to death..However, think back about that fight between hearns and leonard. Hearns jab got to leonard in the early rounds because Ray was trying to stay away to sap hearns power. Leonards strategy made hearns jab look better. When ray went after hearns, when hagler went after hearns, when barkly went after hearns,,the jab was nullified. If you get the sports illustrated the week before the 1st fight, dundee stated that leoanrd would stay away, to sap hearns strenght. They also used Randy shields in camp to help understand how hearns got weaker as the fight wen on, Randy fought both hearns and leonard.

Leoanrd got to hearns early, in the 6th round. Dammm near stopped the fight then. After 2 rounds of having hearns severly hurt, damaged ribs, and almost stopping the fight, ray was winded and simply allowed the fight to get away from him. When he came back after hearns and forced meaningful exchanges, he stopped him.

Many people forget alot about that fight. Hearns simply at welterweight was a beast, but could not handle the firepower that ray had, early in the fight or late in the fight. What do you think would happen vs Robinson. He hit harder than leonard and had arguable the greatest chin ever. Robinson would stop heanrs IMO around the 8th round. He would not move to try to sap Hearns power, he would box him but also come right after him, thus nullyfying the jab. Remember Hearns only boxed leoanrd after he got hurt, he would not hide behind the jab, he would use it set up his right, but would welcome exchanges with anyone, as he did his entire career and paid for it repeatedly.

Oh yeh I almost forgot. Leoanrd did not break Tommy down. In round 6 Tommy was jabbing etc..coming forward winning the round. and he got caught by a left hook/uppercut that hurt him, them Ray went on the attck for the next 2 rounds. Same thing as round 13. Hearns may not have had the zip he had in the early rounds, but he was winning, it was leonard who was winded (leonards own words) he was waiting repeatedly for his second win and it never came. Hearns was jabbing and now coming after ray, and again ray caught him, this time with a perfect left right combination..then the rest of the 13th round and the 14th round until he was stopped ray was blasting him.

I pointt this out, as we do know or it should be an easy guess that Robinson will be able to catch hearns and has more power than Leonard. So I see no way hearns beats Robinson.

Better fight would be leonard vs Robinson. I give this Robison down the stretch, but both had speed, power, could box, etc....

I personally can't see Robinson getting to Hearns while Hearns still has gas left and is still fresh. He would have to break Hearns down they way Leonard did and try to up the pressure late. Until that point, Hearns would be laying it on him IMO.

It depends on which Robinson shows up. If the fight is at a tactical standpoint, then Hearns would clearly have the advantage due to his superior technical ability and size advantage. If he forces Hearns to fight and brings the fight to him, then he should and most likely would get Hearns out in the late rounds.
The problem that Leonard had early is he fought Hearns' fight, he TRIED to outbox him. When Hearns was steamrolled, charged at with someone who has a good enough chin and power Hearns was KO'd. Robinson certainly has the chin and the power all he has to do is avoid the big right coming in but even if he gets caught he has a Hagler type chin meaning he won't get KO'd flush.

Wmute, Leonard knew that if he had brought the fight to Hearns earlier, then he would have put himself at risk so he took a few rounds to figure him out and wait until Hearns tire out, which is why Hearns was easily putting those early rounds in the bank. Leonard knew that he couldn't box with a fresh Hearns because he knew he would have been owned. Good points, but Leonard did not have Hearns as figured out as you make it seem. He had to weather an early storm.

Robinson was a harder puncher than Leonard but Leonard had better defense and didn't have the defensive flaws that Robinson had and was not as brave when it came to taking chances so we shouldn't take a lot from that. Robinson did not like top notch boxers with a consistent jab. If you take a look at Robinson's welterweight fights, then you would be shocked at the plenty of punches he absorbed and Hearns would most likely be the hardest puncher that he would have fought. There were many fighters that had styles that troubled Robinson even in his peak days.

Back then, middleweights were not as big as they are in the modern era and if Hearns was fighting at welterweight at that time, then he would have broke records. He would have been considered a big middleweight, let alone welterweight. I also believe that Robinson would respect Hearns's punching power and would not have such an easy time bringing the fight to Hearns as easy as people are making it seem. Easier said than done. Hearns would not only be the hardest puncher that Robinson would face but he would also be the best technically gifted boxer. The second would be Kid Gavilan.

Slicksouth paw....I am not saying that Leonard had the specidfic blue print in his pocket..What I am saying is that Dundee and Leonard both stated on the record BEFORE the fight, that they would give away the first few rounds (which is why leonards camp was not worried aftr the 1st couple of rounds where lost) then come on and stop Hearns...Isnt that what happened.

Also you point out some things that Robinson strggled with, well that can be said for anyfighter that ever lived. Leonard got hit with right hands so often in his career that his own brother said he almost avoided going to the hearns fight, as his exact words was "ray was a sucker for a right hand". Leoanrd also time to time got very sloppy with his own right hand, that is how duran in the 1st fight was able to easily slip it.

Robinson may have had issues, but the end result is that he won and he beat great great fighters, many hall of famers and top fighters of all time, some that Dundee stated he did not think Leonard would be able to beat, Kid Gavilan, etc...Robinons also had much more killer instinct in him. There have been times when he was cut and was told he only had one round left, and he came out and stopped his opponen in one round.

I have to really say hearns benefitted vs leonard due to strategy, and when it came down to raw fighting Leonard beat hearns badly. Based on that, Robinson stops him

I cant believe any sane person would favor Ray Robinson over Hearns or any other fighter with remote skills. Who did Robinson fight in his career besides slow mafia controlled fighters like Jake Lamotta? Guys with 50 wins 30 loses with only 10 knockouts. He fought joke fighters and calling the fighters Robinson fought joke fighters is being kind.


Tommy Hearns fought real fighters which woudl be why he would beat Robinson in no more than 5 rounds.

Slicksouth paw....I am not saying that Leonard had the specidfic blue print in his pocket..What I am saying is that Dundee and Leonard both stated on the record BEFORE the fight, that they would give away the first few rounds (which is why leonards camp was not worried aftr the 1st couple of rounds where lost) then come on and stop Hearns...Isnt that what happened.

Also you point out some things that Robinson strggled with, well that can be said for anyfighter that ever lived. Leonard got hit with right hands so often in his career that his own brother said he almost avoided going to the hearns fight, as his exact words was "ray was a sucker for a right hand". Leoanrd also time to time got very sloppy with his own right hand, that is how duran in the 1st fight was able to easily slip it.

Robinson may have had issues, but the end result is that he won and he beat great great fighters, many hall of famers and top fighters of all time, some that Dundee stated he did not think Leonard would be able to beat, Kid Gavilan, etc...Robinons also had much more killer instinct in him. There have been times when he was cut and was told he only had one round left, and he came out and stopped his opponen in one round.

I have to really say hearns benefitted vs leonard due to strategy, and when it came down to raw fighting Leonard beat hearns badly. Based on that, Robinson stops him

I remember Dundee in the corner telling Leonard to up the pressure even in the early rounds and get some momentum going. Pretty odd he would say that if they had already talked about it in their game plan. I'm not calling you a liar, but thats what i heard him say.

Leonard did not get hit with many right hands. He showed the best chin that he has ever showed in that fight and he took some punishment, but he was not hit by the right hand at will. He was caught with a few in the second from what i remember becuase he stopped to trade. Thats what i meant when i said that he wouldn't have wanted to box with Hearns because he was cleary at a disadvantage technically. Its the same situation with Robinson. If he traded with Hearns early without setting up anything the way Leonard did, then he would get hurt as well but he would take many more punches than Leonard did simply becuase it is in his nature to attack when hit or discouraged.

I have never doubted Robison's greatness. His win over Galivan really convinces me that he is easily the greatest fighter of all time. Galivan is argebally the third greatest welterweight of all time and Robinson beat not only once, but twice. Robinson definitely had the style to beat Hearns but he would have to do it smartly. Going in and bring the fight to Hearns from the start would only leave yourself vulnerable. Leonard did it perferctly by taking his time, figuring Hearns out early and upping and slowy started to up the pressure. Robinson has brilliant skills and we all know that, however he had a fighter's heart and brawled when things weren't going his way where as Leonard stuck to his game. That is where styles making fights comes into play.

I cant believe any sane person would favor Ray Robinson over Hearns or any other fighter with remote skills. Who did Robinson fight in his career besides slow mafia controlled fighters like Jake Lamotta? Guys with 50 wins 30 loses with only 10 knockouts. He fought joke fighters and calling the fighters Robinson fought joke fighters is being kind.


Tommy Hearns fought real fighters which woudl be why he would beat Robinson in no more than 5 rounds.

Kid Gavilan is the third greatest welterweight of all time and Robinson beat him twice. Henry Armstrong, Jake Lamotta,Gene Fulmer, Bobo Olsen, Carmen Basillio, Sammy Angott are also deserving greats in their respective weight division. I'm not doubting Robinson's opposition nor hsi resume by any means. I just feel that Hearns would be a bit too much.

1st off i am going to ignore the ignorant post that Randi Johnson posted. We will keep this debate between well informed students of the game. Now Slick...Ray got hit repeatedly, Repeatedly with right hands. He is my favorite figher of all time byfare, but I have the footage of every fight. well almost every fight on dvd. He got rocked by right hands and almost dropped. Louis Vega hurt him. In his fight with Geraldo he got hit and rocked in that fight twice. IN his fight with kalule...what about Duran the first time..rounds 2 and 4... Rays own broghter pointed out that Ray got peppered repeatedly in his career with right hands. I think you better check your facts.

Ray could show good defense, as he did vs Benetiz and Duran, but other times he abandoned defense and took shots to give them. This what makes ray my favorite is is warrior mentality. He took evey shot Kalule had at 154 and he got hit a lot, but ended up stopping him. I often am asked at the Gym about who I think was beter Mayweather pound per pound or leoanrd. I always say this is tought, as we forget how hard mayweather was to hit at 130 and 135, and he was hard to hit even when he became offensive minded. Leonad generally when was offensive minded got hit. Not a biggie as he took these shots, and was never seriously hurt before he retired, but he did get hit and rocked a couple of times.

Finally I cant believe your saying exactly what I am saying all along but your not realizing it. Leonard had to make the hearns fight a fight in order to win. Hmmm Your saying that Robinson had a fighters heart and made it a brawl or a fight when he was pressured to do so. Is not that the same thing. What leonad did was realize he had to get inside and make it a war, while it was not a sustained war like margerito did, he did get inside early (rounds 6 and,7, and parts of 8, even a bit in round 3) and late (rounds 13 and 14). He was behind, and had to make if a fight. That is exactly what Robinson was famous for...That is what your saying also.

You made a good point early now your contradicting it. Hearns jab is hard for any fighter to deal with especially at welter. Your correct. However, Leonrad when he got inside, the jab was not a factor in those rounds...except for round 3).

Slick I will help you out, you cant educate me on anything about Sugar ray leoanrd. Leoanrd himself during the junior golden gloves which was held in kc around 2000 or 2001, when I got to speak wth him and ran off dates of his biggest fights, the artcles, how I knew about the conversation he had with Jackie Gleason about fighting duran...etc..Howe he lost to Randy shields as a amateur and went home and cried all night, how he purposely fell out in 1972 when dave jacobs was trying to get him down to weight, and Ray thought it was just to difficult. I also pointed out that many observerst thought that Howard davis used to outbox him in the olympic sparring, he agreed to that........ he and Howard apparantly where very good friends... Leonard told me himself, along with Pat nappy a trainer, they were both there, and he said he did nt know of anyone besides himself who had that type of knowledge of his career. Slick from the time he was fighting to go to the olympics til he lost to norris, if there was a article, interview, magazine, dvd, etc..about ray I had to have it.....

Slick I ask you to simply get the sports illustrated from your nearest library, the week of sept 16th 1981. I had a drawing of Leonard and Hearns on the cover, not a picture..it is labled the showdown. It has word for word, Dundee shocking the boxign extablishment by saying he thought hearns would win a decision vs leoanrd 9 times out of 10, but that Ray would back hearns up, because tommy has never had to deal with this big of a fight, getting backed up, or being hurt, that leonard would be able to stop him. They interviewed Leonard and he disagreed saying he could outbox or outslug Tommy in day the meet, that Tommy was not smart enought to deal with him. He also said that he would not specifically give the rounds away early, but he would stay away to sap Tommy's strength, then move in and around the 8-10 rounds he would stop him. It is all right there.........

Johnson...who great in their peak did Tommy beat? That should shut u up with your stupid idiotic posts for some time while your trying to find some names....

I will help you..Cuevas...hmm he is very good but not great. Duran a natural lightweight who started at 118, got ko'd at 154 which is where tommy should have always been at. Leonard the 2nd fight he was nowhere near the fighter he was after he came back from retirment. Who elese......The biggest fights of his career leoanrd and hagler, tommy went to sleep!

Get your facts straight.

Also while your slamming Robinson think you need to brush up on him and why he is regarded almost unanamously as the best to ever lace em up..ali said it, leonard said too.....

Wmute? Why the new account?

Anyway, I think a great jab is the way to tame a speedster. Hearns had an amazing jab and he could win rounds against Robinson. I think if anyone had the best chance of beating Robinson, it'd might be Hearns. I think Hearns could definietly beat Robinson. But I'll pick Robinson anyway.

While we have to respect all opinions...It is amazing that people make assumptions with out doing their research. Randy shields was getting inside hearns jab at will in their fight and fought a very close fight until it was stopped in the later rounds, by cuts I believe.

Leonard, I ask everyone to do their research..stayed away due to strategy! Hearns did have a fast and accurate jab, however many times in that fight leonard tried to get inside Hearns jab, and he was successful, very successful, I can point out the rounds...rounds 3, 6,,7,8, 13,14. In four of 6 of those rounds Hearns was hurt! When Hagler went after Tommy no jab could have kept him at bay.....None..

Funny how some get on here, with valid opinions, as everyone's is to be respected, but echo points that dont hold any water. I again point out that Hearns be Who great at Welterweight? Yes he was a very very very good welter top 10 if you ask me, but he is no Robinson. Robinson beat greats, and was never stopped by a fighter, (he was stopped in his bid for the light heavyweight title due to heat in the last round of a fight he was comfortably ahead in). Leonard the first true great fighter Hearns faced, stopped him exactly in the format he and Dundee said they would a week before the fight in their interview. Leonard's strategy to stay away, made Hearns jab look better and more impactful than it actually was.

Robinson by 5th round TKO.TOO MUCH FOR TOMMY

1st off i am going to ignore the ignorant post that Randi Johnson posted. We will keep this debate between well informed students of the game. Now Slick...Ray got hit repeatedly, Repeatedly with right hands. He is my favorite figher of all time byfare, but I have the footage of every fight. well almost every fight on dvd. He got rocked by right hands and almost dropped. Louis Vega hurt him. In his fight with Geraldo he got hit and rocked in that fight twice. IN his fight with kalule...what about Duran the first time..rounds 2 and 4... Rays own broghter pointed out that Ray got peppered repeatedly in his career with right hands. I think you better check your facts.

Ray could show good defense, as he did vs Benetiz and Duran, but other times he abandoned defense and took shots to give them. This what makes ray my favorite is is warrior mentality. He took evey shot Kalule had at 154 and he got hit a lot, but ended up stopping him. I often am asked at the Gym about who I think was beter Mayweather pound per pound or leoanrd. I always say this is tought, as we forget how hard mayweather was to hit at 130 and 135, and he was hard to hit even when he became offensive minded. Leonad generally when was offensive minded got hit. Not a biggie as he took these shots, and was never seriously hurt before he retired, but he did get hit and rocked a couple of times.

Finally I cant believe your saying exactly what I am saying all along but your not realizing it. Leonard had to make the hearns fight a fight in order to win. Hmmm Your saying that Robinson had a fighters heart and made it a brawl or a fight when he was pressured to do so. Is not that the same thing. What leonad did was realize he had to get inside and make it a war, while it was not a sustained war like margerito did, he did get inside early (rounds 6 and,7, and parts of 8, even a bit in round 3) and late (rounds 13 and 14). He was behind, and had to make if a fight. That is exactly what Robinson was famous for...That is what your saying also.

You made a good point early now your contradicting it. Hearns jab is hard for any fighter to deal with especially at welter. Your correct. However, Leonrad when he got inside, the jab was not a factor in those rounds...except for round 3).

Slick I will help you out, you cant educate me on anything about Sugar ray leoanrd. Leoanrd himself during the junior golden gloves which was held in kc around 2000 or 2001, when I got to speak wth him and ran off dates of his biggest fights, the artcles, how I knew about the conversation he had with Jackie Gleason about fighting duran...etc..Howe he lost to Randy shields as a amateur and went home and cried all night, how he purposely fell out in 1972 when dave jacobs was trying to get him down to weight, and Ray thought it was just to difficult. I also pointed out that many observerst thought that Howard davis used to outbox him in the olympic sparring, he agreed to that........ he and Howard apparantly where very good friends... Leonard told me himself, along with Pat nappy a trainer, they were both there, and he said he did nt know of anyone besides himself who had that type of knowledge of his career. Slick from the time he was fighting to go to the olympics til he lost to norris, if there was a article, interview, magazine, dvd, etc..about ray I had to have it.....

Slick I ask you to simply get the sports illustrated from your nearest library, the week of sept 16th 1981. I had a drawing of Leonard and Hearns on the cover, not a picture..it is labled the showdown. It has word for word, Dundee shocking the boxign extablishment by saying he thought hearns would win a decision vs leoanrd 9 times out of 10, but that Ray would back hearns up, because tommy has never had to deal with this big of a fight, getting backed up, or being hurt, that leonard would be able to stop him. They interviewed Leonard and he disagreed saying he could outbox or outslug Tommy in day the meet, that Tommy was not smart enought to deal with him. He also said that he would not specifically give the rounds away early, but he would stay away to sap Tommy's strength, then move in and around the 8-10 rounds he would stop him. It is all right there.........

I can see how you think that we are talking about the same things but we aren't. When you say that Robinson would get on the inside early, then you mean that he would actually be effective at doing it. When i say he will get inside, i mean he will be reckless when he is hit and will be making himself vulnerable to counters. Robinson and Leonard are two completely different fighters. What you have to realize and what is the most important thing is that one stuck to their game plan and the other didn't. If he gets on the inside early, then he would be giving Hearns is opportunities because he would still be fresh. When Leonard started to take his chances, he waited until Hearns was confident with the situation and had expended some of his energy. Hmmmm.....so Robinson will be taking chances when he is fighting the best technical boxer with the most power that he has ever faced? I can't see it happening. I have see plenty of fighters that made Robinson think twice.

Again, i can definitely see Robinson being carefull, going to the body occasionally and slowly start to come behind and stopping Hearns. I see Hearns boxing, Robinson respecting his punching power and making him think twice about coming in. Leonard actually had experience with facing boxers that were equally brilliant as he was, unlike Robinson. Pre Hearns, Leonard had already faced brilliant technitions like Benitez and Duran, two of the most brilliant fighters ever. The only fighter that Robinson beat that was almost as brilliant as he was, was Kid Galvilan at welterweight.


Thats some nice information you posted to honest. A nice post to read.

I can see how you think that we are talking about the same things but we aren't. When you say that Robinson would get on the inside early, then you mean that he would actually be effective at doing it. When i say he will get inside, i mean he will be reckless when he is hit and will be making himself vulnerable to counters. Robinson and Leonard are two completely different fighters. What you have to realize and what is the most important thing is that one stuck to their game plan and the other didn't. If he gets on the inside early, then he would be giving Hearns is opportunities because he would still be fresh. When Leonard started to take his chances, he waited until Hearns was confident with the situation and had expended some of his energy. Hmmmm.....so Robinson will be taking chances when he is fighting the best technical boxer with the most power that he has ever faced? I can't see it happening. I have see plenty of fighters that made Robinson think twice.

Again, i can definitely see Robinson being carefull, going to the body occasionally and slowly start to come behind and stopping Hearns. I see Hearns boxing, Robinson respecting his punching power and making him think twice about coming in. Leonard actually had experience with facing boxers that were equally brilliant as he was, unlike Robinson. Pre Hearns, Leonard had already faced brilliant technitions like Benitez and Duran, two of the most brilliant fighters ever. The only fighter that Robinson beat that was almost as brilliant as he was, was Kid Galvilan at welterweight.


Thats some nice information you posted to honest. A nice post to read.
To beat Tommy you had to either be able to weather the storm and come back ala Barkley/Leonard or be a great pressure fighter with a great chin to stop Tommy it was damn near impossible to pull out a decision over Tommy though.

Leonard was not by instinct a pressure fighter, Robinson could be a pressure fighter from the get go but he could switch it from Boxer-Puncher to Pressure fighter. He wasn't a pressure fighter in the sense that he was a stalker but he knew how to cut the ring of with movement and I think thats where he'd catch Tommy. He'd realise it was damn near impossible to outbox him so he'd pressure him and catch him late on the inside of Tommy's jab-straight right combination.

Tommy would win the opening rounds with the latter rounds going to Robinson en route to a stoppage/KO victory for Robinson.

Robinson TKO 12

To beat Tommy you had to either be able to weather the storm and come back ala Barkley/Leonard or be a great pressure fighter with a great chin to stop Tommy it was damn near impossible to pull out a decision over Tommy though.

Leonard was not by instinct a pressure fighter, Robinson could be a pressure fighter from the get go but he could switch it from Boxer-Puncher to Pressure fighter. He wasn't a pressure fighter in the sense that he was a stalker but he knew how to cut the ring of with movement and I think thats where he'd catch Tommy. He'd realise it was damn near impossible to outbox him so he'd pressure him and catch him late on the inside of Tommy's jab-straight right combination.

Tommy would win the opening rounds with the latter rounds going to Robinson en route to a stoppage/KO victory for Robinson.

Thats a good prediction. Hearns winning the early rounds and Robinson coming on strong late is understandable, i just can't see Hearns just being blown out by anyone at welterweight.

Actually, leonard took many chances in rounds 3 and 4, electing to go back on his toes in round 5. I know the fight like I know my birthday. Hearns was not winded in round 6, yet leonard hurt him severly with a single left hook/uppercut. I do not think Hearns was the fighter you think he was. Sure he could control lessor fighters with the jab and yes he had arguable the best right hand the welters ever saw, however before we anoint him this all time fearful fighter that could beat the Best Fighter to ever lace em up, according to almost evey respected poll, should not Tommy have some signigicant names he beat at welter?

Who did he beat at welter who was prime. Cuevas it it!!! He got stopped by Leonard, beat a older and well removed from his most efficient weight class Duran, outboxed Benitez when he was shot, got stopped by Barkly and lost to him the other time, and was stopped by Hagler. What has hearns done to justify rating him up there with Robinson.

Actually, leonard took many chances in rounds 3 and 4, electing to go back on his toes in round 5. I know the fight like I know my birthday. Hearns was not winded in round 6, yet leonard hurt him severly with a single left hook/uppercut. I do not think Hearns was the fighter you think he was. Sure he could control lessor fighters with the jab and yes he had arguable the best right hand the welters ever saw, however before we anoint him this all time fearful fighter that could beat the Best Fighter to ever lace em up, according to almost evey respected poll, should not Tommy have some signigicant names he beat at welter?

Who did he beat at welter who was prime. Cuevas it it!!! He got stopped by Leonard, beat a older and well removed from his most efficient weight class Duran, outboxed Benitez when he was shot, got stopped by Barkly and lost to him the other time, and was stopped by Hagler. What has hearns done to justify rating him up there with Robinson.

That actually supports my point. Leonard took chances in round 3 and 4, rounds that he was caught with right hands, out boxed and rounds that he also lost. Why is that? Becuase he took chances against a fresh Hearns that was still dangerous and he paid that price. I have also rewatched this fight a bunch of times.

You say Hearns lost to Leonard like it is something to be ahsmed about. A fight in which he was winning in the cards at the time. Leonard is a top 10 pound for pound all time great. Hearns was just another one of those legends that were overshadowed by other greats.

I also don't know how you consider Benitez shot. He had only lost to Leonard by that point and it was also a fight that he actually trained for and was prepared. Hearns fought brilliantly and showed that he was multi dimensional. He looked better than Leonard did beating Benitez because he brought more pressure and was willing to take more risk. I personally had him dominating the fight. Duran won the middlweight championship after his loss to Hearns and the fight was only one year removed from his upset of Davey Moore. The point is that he was a very good fighter in that weight class and accomplished. This is a small section of my ring magizine that disusses Hearns being a pound for pound all time great.

''Prior to lifting the WBA, title he stopped former WBA titles Angel Espada, future WBA junior welterweight titlest Bruce Curry, and a few decent contenders. He looked mighty impressive in winning the ttile with a devestating second round knockout of Pipinio Cuevas.''

''He certainly went on to have a magnificant career. Aside from those highly impressive results against Benetiz, Duran, and Leonard( in their second bout), he beat several other good men in impressive style, including the prime unbeaten Virgil Hill and Dennis Andries at lightheavyweight, Juan Domingo Roldan, Doug DeWitt, and James Shuler at middlweight, Fred Hutchins at junior middlweight, and Michael Olajide at super middlweight. And he claimed ttiles at 5 different weight divisions.''

I really think you are underrating Hearns. While he doesn't rank up there with Robinson on an all time great status, he still had every tool and ability to beat him and he would beat him IMO. You say that that he beat Duran when he wasn't at his efficient weight division, so you would you consider Hagler or Barkely beat a prime Hearns? Even though he was past his ''effiicent'' weight class? I sense a double standard here. I think you need to revisit a prime Tommy Hearns.

ray outlasts him and stops him late...i like ray over any welter, light middle, and middleweight of all time...he was that good

Slick southpaw.....Check your facts and my statements. First off Hearns was ahead due to faulty scoring. Check the facts about the dispute raised by Dundee after the fight and the neveda state boxing comission concured.

Round 6 was scored 10-9....should have been 10-8
Round 7 scored 10-9 should have been 10-8'
round 13 scored accurately. 10-8
Round 14 would have been 10-8

you do the math.... 131-131. Going into the last round.. Anyone who even is a Hearns fan knows that round 6,7 ,13 & 14 where all 10-8 rounds.

As for Benitez...What you may not know is that he was on a early decline due to a overbearing father and being overmatched with bigger opponents. These punches took their effect, especially since he did not work out that much. As far back as the 90's and possibly the late 80'3 he needed assisted living. He can not feed himself etc. This was not from a specific fight but from a accumalation. He was soo good that he got by at the jr middlweight divisions but he was not the benitez that faced leonard and was 38-0-1 at that point. You may want to check your facts about Benitez.

Hearns is a very good fighter, one of the best ever. I have always said that but beating a shot leoanrd, beating a Duran at 154, beating a Benitez on the downhill slope, then coupling that with his losses at his PEAK, to Leonard by stoppage, hagler by stoppage, Barkley by stoppage does not make him even on the level to compare to a SRR. Sorry my man but Heanrs simply is not at that level.

Now anyone has a punches chance, and by going with that logic hell cotto could beat SRR, but based off what they did, who they beat, how they got beat etc...hearns does not have much of a chance.

You also bring up the 2nd leonard fight. A fight after ray was retired for 5 years, and fought very sparringly a couple of fights, never was the same. Anyone who knows boxing knows that you lose a lot of your instincts etc when your inactive. That being said Hearns was also based his size and frame was a much more natural middleweight and super middleweight than Leonard ever was. However, even at that weight when leonard made it a war he hurt Tommy more than Tommy hurt him. Yes Leonad went down twice, but go back and look at those knockdowns, the first one Ray got hit, regrouped hearns came back threw another punched WHICH MISSED and his forearem pushed down on rays head whie Ray back foot was on the outer part of the ring apron and he went down. He was fine ! However it was a deserved 10-8 round for hearns. The 2nd knockdown was real and Ray was in trouble. However, immediately after he got up, he took the fight bac to Hearns, and actually won the rest of the round. Still a 10-8 round for hearns However. Compare that too the trouble hearns was in whe Ray had him hurt, both rounds. Go look for yourself. Hearns simply could not deal with a fighter the level of Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, Barkley, much less Sugar Ray Robinson when they start to land shots on him. Not a chance. Hearns has a Glass jaw, you have to face it!!

I would rank Hearns up there in the top 30 of all time around a Tito Trinidad. I would pick Hearns to maybe win that fight , but if tito landed then once again good night for hearns. Dlh I pick Hearns, but DLH has a great left hook. What was it that Ray leonard landed to hurt hearns?

Hmm in your statment about ray not being able to deal with a fresh hearns, are you saying hearns was spent by round 6?

Your final question about Hagler Barkly beating a Peak Hearns. I would say yes Hearns was peak. Again I ask you to check your facts. He faced Hagler at at 26, had only one losss and yes he was a natural Middleweight with his size and build. In fact he was big for a middleweight. For Barkley, he was 29. In total he at the time had moved up only 13 pounds from a weight class that he clearly was weight draining himself to stay at. At 154 an 160 he still stopped most of his opponents... Compare that to Duran 33 when he faced hearns at 154. Duran had moved up 36 pounds from his original weight. Duran had fought and dominated at the 135 pound weight class with 72 fights.

I dont think there is a valid comparison..... You obviously know boxing, but slant things completley towards hearns favor, when in fact hearns faulterd in his biggest fights due to his glass jaw, and hmmm SRR was better than anyone better jaw, better power than any Welter he ever faced.

Slick southpaw.....Check your facts and my statements. First off Hearns was ahead due to faulty scoring. Check the facts about the dispute raised by Dundee after the fight and the neveda state boxing comission concured.

Round 6 was scored 10-9....should have been 10-8
Round 7 scored 10-9 should have been 10-8'
round 13 scored accurately. 10-8
Round 14 would have been 10-8

you do the math.... 131-131. Going into the last round.. Anyone who even is a Hearns fan knows that round 6,7 ,13 & 14 where all 10-8 rounds.

I don't think the 6th or 7th should've been 10-8 on the scorecards although both rounds were strong for Leonard and Hearns was hurt. They weren't that one-sided, Leonard took some punishment also.

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I guess you could make the case but few judges ever give out 10-8 rounds without knockdowns.

As for Benitez...What you may not know is that he was on a early decline due to a overbearing father and being overmatched with bigger opponents. These punches took their effect, especially since he did not work out that much. As far back as the 90's and possibly the late 80'3 he needed assisted living. He can not feed himself etc. This was not from a specific fight but from a accumalation. He was soo good that he got by at the jr middlweight divisions but he was not the benitez that faced leonard and was 38-0-1 at that point. You may want to check your facts about Benitez.

Benitez did go out early but he was in good form against Hearns, he was coming off a decision win over Duran and a KO win over Maurice Hope.
He had his moments in the fight even though he lost the decision. After that loss it all went downhill for Benitez.

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For Barkley, he was 29. In total he at the time had moved up only 13 pounds from a weight class that he clearly was weight draining himself to stay at.

Hearns had fought all of them though, and he was destroying Barkley until he got caught with the right. Puncher's chance.

His next fight against James Kinchen showed that he was truly past it.
People were calling for his retirement but Hearns decided to fight Leonard again, got some of his credibility back with that performance and even went on to win the LHW title against Virgil Hill.

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Hearns vs Kinchen

About this particular match-up (Robinson vs Hearns), Robinson should be favoured because of his dependable chin, speed and power. Robinson could make it a war when he wanted to.

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the machine, good post, but even the nevada state boxing commission agreed that it does not take a knockdown to score a round 10-8, and that those rounds were about as dominant with out a knockdwn you could get, especially round 7, when hearns legs bucked twice, and it was a devastating beating that round. Round six started off with hearns doing some decent work, then getting caught and still he was fighting back until ray landed a tremendous left hook to the rib cage, which affected tommy the rest of the fight. You could see Tommy holding his guards low to protect the damaged ribs.

The rest of your post is good. I remember there being whispers after Benitez moved up that some of his motor skills had visbly diminished, and this was befoe the Tommy fight. However Benitez still was a excellent boxer. Many said that he naturally was so good that if he had realy trained for the leonard fight that he would have been the victor. I dont agree with that, as I have the tape where Cosell and others mentioned that for this fight Benitez did train better than ever before.

A knockdown doesn't nessecarily get you a 10-8 round either. If one fighter dominates a round but suffers a flash knockdown than the round can legitimately be scored 10-9 rather than 10-8. I don't think these judges are properly instructed as to how to score sometimes.

For the topic at hand I like Robinson by late KO. Robinson was practically unbeatable at Welterweight. In theory Hearns could use his reach and jab to box Robinson from a distance I just don't see how he could pull it off for long against a fighter just as fast and probably more skilled than he is.

Poet

Poet, good point and agreed about the 10-8 rounds. I think I pointed out that round 6 may have been a legit 10-9, may have been..... But round 7 was as brutal of a dominant round with out a knockdown as one could have, and to score that 10-9 was a travesty.