Put something on his glove to blind Ali in the first fight? I saw a documentary on Ali last night and one guy said "Then Liston tried to cheat" and talked about a chemical that was later banned from the ring. I forget what it was. I've heard this rumor before but the guy on the documentary was speaking of it like it was a fact.

It is obvious that Ali was blinded by something. He asked to have his gloves taken off and Angelo said no ****ing way! "This is for the world title kid." Do you think that he did it on purpose?

Discuss..

I still can't believe how Liston barely gets any heat over that. It's one of the most disgraceful things I've seen in Boxing. Ever.

Put something on his glove to blind Ali in the first fight? I saw a documentary on Ali last night and one guy said "Then Liston tried to cheat" and talked about a chemical that was later banned from the ring. I forget what it was. I've heard this rumor before but the guy on the documentary was speaking of it like it was a fact.

It is obvious that Ali was blinded by something. He asked to have his gloves taken off and Angelo said no ****ing way! "This is for the world title kid." Do you think that he did it on purpose?

Discuss..

I do. Liston was a great fighter, but he had a bully mentality and I believe his corner did too. If threatened I think they would do whatever necessary, including cheating, to win. Liston was also accused of having ointment on his gloves for one of the Cleveland Williams fights and another I can't remember. People can say what they want, but I don't believe in coincidences. Sonny knew he was a beaten fighter in both Ali fights. In the first, he made a last ditch effort to try a win by using a blinding substance on his gloves. In the second fight he was just looking for a way out. Jmo.

In the second he was actually stopped on his feet! The count was done incorrectly and he very well could have been waiting for it. Bad refereeing. In the first it is obvious he got his punk ass beat down so he has no excuse about rematch. He had his chance and got beaten so bad and it was so OBVIOUS that he cheated before quitting like the bum he was. I mean bum in terms of attitude not ability.

I don't know.

I've heard people say (mostly Bert Sugar) that Liston put something on his gloves in the Williams, Machen and Folley fights but after reviewing these fights and hearing other people's opinions (who were around at the time) I was proven that this was not true.
The fighters never came out and said anything of the sort.

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Dundee never tried to act as if Ali had been cheated.

It could've been intentional for sure, we know what people Liston was involved with, but there is no definite proof either way in my opinion. From what I know, none of Liston's cornermen have ever come out and said anything about it.

The 'blinding' is just something that people take for granted, because it's always talked about. Like when Willie Pep went a round without throwing a punch or when Ali got several minutes to recover after he was floored by a Cooper left hook.

I do know that Liston came out with the intention to knock Ali out in that fifth round after seeing what had happened, it's a great display of Ali's toughness when he takes all of Liston's punches and comes right back in the 6th round to win the fight.

I also believe that the shoulder injury was indeed real, but do not feel that Liston would've quit if it wasn't for the beating he took and the fact that he knew he would be given an instant rematch and could train harder for it.

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I do not believe that the second fight was a fix but rather a lousy job by referee Jersey Joe Walcott.
Perhaps Liston was looking for a way out, but he was on his feet when the fight was stopped. It should not have been because Walcott had not counted to ten, he had not counted at all actually.

Liston always maintained that he was only taking all the time to recover that was given to him and was not going to get up until Ali was taken to a neutral corner.
Sounds reasonable but again, with his background in crime it's impossible to know what was really going on.

Thanks TheManchine! Great info there!

That punch looks very suspect. It looks like it barely hit him... It was a really quick punch so maybe it's just the angle but that is very suspicious.

Put something on his glove to blind Ali in the first fight? I saw a documentary on Ali last night and one guy said "Then Liston tried to cheat" and talked about a chemical that was later banned from the ring. I forget what it was. I've heard this rumor before but the guy on the documentary was speaking of it like it was a fact.

It is obvious that Ali was blinded by something. He asked to have his gloves taken off and Angelo said no ****ing way! "This is for the world title kid." Do you think that he did it on purpose?

Discuss..
Ali himself said that his eye was blinded by a substance Listons corner used on the shoulder.
Thanks TheManchine! Great info there!

That punch looks very suspect. It looks like it barely hit him... It was a really quick punch so maybe it's just the angle but that is very suspicious.
The second Liston fight was held in Lewiston, Maine. It's a very strange place to stage a heavyweight titlefight. The reason was that Ali had received multiple threats on his life because of his religious beliefs. It was also rumoured that the mafia had put a contract on him. So none of the regular big-time venue wanted anything to do with Ali.

What I'm getting at here is that Liston was a simple man, and some people believe that he was scared when he fought Ali the second time. Not scared of Ali, but scared that a possible assasinationattempt might mistakenly hit him instead of Ali. According to that theory that was why Liston didn't get up when it appeared as if he could had he wanted to. He wanted out as quickly as possible. On a sidenote let me add that Liston was rumoured having heavy connections with the mafia, so maybe he actually knew something.

Thanks TheManchine! Great info there!

That punch looks very suspect. It looks like it barely hit him... It was a really quick punch so maybe it's just the angle but that is very suspicious.

You can see that it landed and rocked Liston's head back in slow motion. It was only a flash knockdown though and Liston should've been able to get up immediately.

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Ali himself said that his eye was blinded by a substance Listons corner used on the shoulder.

I have also heard that Williams had openly complained, but it isn't something I can verify at this time.

The second Liston fight was held in Lewiston, Maine. It's a very strange place to stage a heavyweight titlefight. The reason was that Ali had received multiple threats on his life because of his religious beliefs. It was also rumoured that the mafia had put a contract on him. So none of the regular big-time venue wanted anything to do with Ali.

What I'm getting at here is that Liston was a simple man, and some people believe that he was scared when he fought Ali the second time. Not scared of Ali, but scared that a possible assasinationattempt might mistakenly hit him instead of Ali. According to that theory that was why Liston didn't get up when it appeared as if he could had he wanted to. He wanted out as quickly as possible. On a sidenote let me add that Liston was rumoured having heavy connections with the mafia, so maybe he actually knew something.

There have been all sorts of theories and rumors about this. Some more reasonable than others. But I think its very clear Liston was looking for a way out.

[QUOTE=TheManchine;3921704]You can see that it landed and rocked Liston's head back in slow motion. It was only a flash knockdown though and Liston should've been able to get up immediately.QUOTE]


I have no doubt he could have beaten the count or that Walcott screwed up. It just doesn't look like he wanted to. That punch was his excuse to get out of that fight, but Walcotts incompetence sealed it.

You can see that it landed and rocked Liston's head back in slow motion. It was only a flash knockdown though and Liston should've been able to get up immediately.

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Yeah, Dundee always pointed that out about the head snapping back. To me it doesnt really prove or convince me of anything. the head always snaps back in some instances even if the punch dont carry that much mustard. Ive see guys hit with feather dusters and their head spins like Michael Keaton in beetlejuice, eventhough it doesnt even hurt them

liston took far harder shots to the chin than that. Ali never had a one punch ko power, and he was moving back. The punch did land and connect, but it was nothing huge.

i was totally convinced when Sonny displayed his acting talents while trying to get up and then dramatically falling on the canvas again

if you ask me, ill say bull**** almost every time.

I have also heard that Williams had openly complained, but it isn't something I can verify at this time.

I've never heard anything of it, but it could've happened.

Watching that fight I don't see when it could've happened though, both fights were rather short and Williams did not seem to have any problems with his eyes.

There have been all sorts of theories and rumors about this. Some more reasonable than others. But I think its very clear Liston was looking for a way out.

I have no doubt he could have beaten the count or that Walcott screwed up. It just doesn't look like he wanted to. That punch was his excuse to get out of that fight, but Walcotts incompetence sealed it.

The fight was a mess. Jersey Joe should've never been the referee, he was clearly not experienced enough to deal with a situation like that.

Yeah, Dundee always pointed that out about the head snapping back. To me it doesnt really prove or convince me of anything. the head always snaps back in some instances even if the punch dont carry that much mustard. Ive see guys hit with feather dusters and their head spins like Michael Keaton in beetlejuice, eventhough it doesnt even hurt them

liston took far harder shots to the chin than that. Ali never had a one punch ko power, and he was moving back. The punch did land and connect, but it was nothing huge.

i was totally convinced when Sonny displayed his acting talents while trying to get up and then dramatically falling on the canvas again

if you ask me, ill say bull**** almost every time.

It was a flash knockdown, Liston went down legitimately. He was reaching with his jab and took a fast left on the chin that he did not see coming.
What happened afterwards was not legitimate. Atleast that's what I believe.

So many things wrong about that one, Jersey Joe not giving Liston the count, Ali not going to his corner, Liston not getting up, falling down again in a poor acting performance and Nat Fleischer from the audience ordering Walcott to stop the fight.

To be honest I'm not going to say that anyone is wrong about this one because in truth, I don't know what to believe. I'd say it's one of those things that we will never get a definite answer about.

It was a flash knockdown, Liston went down legitimately. He was reaching with his jab and took a fast left on the chin that he did not see coming.
What happened afterwards was not legitimate. Atleast that's what I believe
Yes like i said the shot landed clean but it wasnt anything huge. I think that liston didnt want to get up not when he was already down, i think it happened way before that. Maybe in his locker room, maybe a week before the fight, maybe when he heard the news that the first time the fight was to be cancelled due to ali's illness. Or maybe he was paid off.

In liston's mind, i think it was already arranged that he was not in it for the full ride. Ali's punch just reminded him of that idea, and he wanted to end the show right then and there

Thanks for all the posts guys! I feel much more educated on the subject now even though I still have a lot of questions that will never be answered.

Yeah, Dundee always pointed that out about the head snapping back. To me it doesnt really prove or convince me of anything. the head always snaps back in some instances even if the punch dont carry that much mustard. Ive see guys hit with feather dusters and their head spins like Michael Keaton in beetlejuice, eventhough it doesnt even hurt them

liston took far harder shots to the chin than that. Ali never had a one punch ko power, and he was moving back. The punch did land and connect, but it was nothing huge.

i was totally convinced when Sonny displayed his acting talents while trying to get up and then dramatically falling on the canvas again

if you ask me, ill say bull**** almost every time.
If I should compare the KD to something recent I'd say it's comparable to the KD Calzaghe suffered against Hopkins. Liston could have gotten up like Calzaghe did IMO.

And yes. The acting was very poor.

If I should compare the KD to something recent I'd say it's comparable to the KD Calzaghe suffered against Hopkins. Liston could have gotten up like Calzaghe did IMO.

And yes. The acting was very poor.
the effect of the punch, maybe. Both didnt seem all that powerfull. But it's so hard to see how the punch could supposedly cause that much damage because the camera gives you a back view. the punch is not clear that's why they call it the "phantom punch" but it did land

the only difference between those 2 KDs is that Hopkins was coming forward and actually pushing Calzaghe down when the punch connected. Liston almost went down voluntairly. Both punches were not that serious. one guy got up, the other didnt.

I think his corner panicked and put moxsel solution on his gloves. Sonny was in with a very shady group of people during his boxing days, so it doesn't suprise me.