I have recently read several books on some of Muhammad Ali's

fights and have discovered that he won alot of controversial

decisions over fighters like Ken Norton, Jimmy Young, Ernie

Shavers that could have easily gone in their favor. Ali rose

to occasion to beat great fighters like Foreman, Frazier, Liston.

But he wasn't always consistent, so was he the greatest

heavyweight of all time or was it the hype the he built up?

I have recently read several books on some of Muhammad Ali's

fights and have discovered that he won alot of controversial

decisions over fighters like Ken Norton, Jimmy Young, Ernie

Shavers that could have easily gone in their favor. Ali rose

to occasion to beat great fighters like Foreman, Frazier, Liston.

But he wasn't always consistent, so was he the greatest

heavyweight of all time or was it the hype the he built up?


Im not a fan of Ali, I give him credit where it was due. Controversial or not the "W" is all that matters (some people like to throw that in an argument)

Great fighter and easily put in anyones top 10 but listing him as number 1 in every list (as some people do) is a bit disgusting to me.


Joe Louis was a far better heavyweight than Ali in my opinion and I rank ali in my top 3.

I have recently read several books on some of Muhammad Ali's

fights and have discovered that he won alot of controversial

decisions over fighters like Ken Norton, Jimmy Young, Ernie

Shavers that could have easily gone in their favor. Ali rose

to occasion to beat great fighters like Foreman, Frazier, Liston.

But he wasn't always consistent, so was he the greatest

heavyweight of all time or was it the hype the he built up?

A lot of fighters were not consistent. The difference is that most of them lost the fights where they were weak. Witness Louis-Schmeling I, Demspey-Tunney I, Ali-Foreman I (for Foreman), Ali-Liston I (for Liston), Tyson-Douglas, Lewis-Rahman I, Hagler-Leonard, and many others. You could call some of Ali's wins controversial but that is always a matter for debate.

The knock against Ali is his punching power. Not that it was terrible, but he was known for his footwork and his smarts, not his throws. That being said, he took on two of the biggest bruisers ever (Liston and Foreman) and used his skills to win. Still, a lot of the pundits like their heavies to be throwers, not dancers, and will never list Ali as the greatest because of this.

I go back and forth on this question quite a bit. I used to think it was Joe Louis or nothing as the greatest but his slow footwork and sometimes shaky defence bother me. Dempsey was maybe the best heavy brawler of all time but it's difficult to measure such an old fighter against more modern champions. Right now I would say that yes, Ali is the greatest by a small margin. Though ask me next week and I might change my mind :D .

Ali and Louis are definitely 1-2. I rank Ali slightly higher because he beat the best set of opponents of any fighter, ever. And don't forget, Ali lost over 3 years of his prime. Imagine what we'd be saying about him if politics didn't rob the sport he loved from a full, uninterupted career. For speed, ring savy, chin and heart Ali had no match.

That's just my opinion, but I'm right. :D

As a kid during the seventies I believe my Dad, when he told me that Ali was the Greatest....

I believe my father then, even more so now, when I learned more about the Man himself, I definetly believe Ali more today on his claim as the Greatest (beating all the best HW of his era, beat all guys who has a claim on the top 10 or 20 HW of all time, well except maybe for Holmes)...

Only Heavy Weight Champ that can Claim that he can fly like a butterfly and sting like a bee...

What other heavyweight can claim that they beat 2 or 3 of the top 10 heavyweights of all-time?

i dont think he was the best ever

i dont think he was the best ever

I typically stay out of "history" discussions as I am just learning much of the history of boxing myself (watched Hagler-Briscoe last night)

All I've seen was from some documentary footage, but I've got to think Jack Johnson belongs in this discussion.

Ali and Louis are definitely 1-2. I rank Ali slightly higher because he beat the best set of opponents of any fighter, ever. And don't forget, Ali lost over 3 years of his prime. Imagine what we'd be saying about him if politics didn't rob the sport he loved from a full, uninterupted career. For speed, ring savy, chin and heart Ali had no match.

That's just my opinion, but I'm right. :D

You are indeed correct, and may I add that there has been only one other figure in sports history to have transcended to such world wide recognition. That being Michael Jordan, who I believe has passed even the great Babe Ruth...

"I am the greatest of ALL TIMES!!!!!!"


He couldn't say that unless it was true. :cool:

I typically stay out of "history" discussions as I am just learning much of the history of boxing myself (watched Hagler-Briscoe last night)

All I've seen was from some documentary footage, but I've got to think Jack Johnson belongs in this discussion.

Nat Fleischer, the founder of Ring magazine, insisted that Jack Johnson was the best heavyweight ever. This man lived a long time and saw most of the greats, including Ali.

Like I said about Dempsey, it's difficult to judge fighters from so long ago. Not that boxing was that much different, but there are many other factors that come into play here. Fighters back then were much smaller. Heavies have gotten bigger throughout the decades, and you can make allowances up to a certain point, but you go back that far and the conditioning is completely different. You also have to take the quality of the film footage we have for these men into question. It's just not very good, and affects our judgements of the fighters we see from that era.

You are indeed correct, and may I add that there has been only one other figure in sports history to have transcended to such world wide recognition. That being Michael Jordan, who I believe has passed even the great Babe Ruth...
I agree with this, and in fact this is why I would call Ali the Greatest. From a boxing standpoint, he had phenomenal (best ever?) natural talent, and the heart of a lion, but his technical skills were suspect. Nonetheless, he managed to compile a wonderful overall record.

But what really sets him apart was his otherworldly charisma - it made him the first (and perhaps only) boxer to truly transcend boxing, sport in general, and in fact become a global persona. That's what's remakable about Ali.

The thing that makes it IMPOSSIBLE to rate Dempsey is the absence of any fighters other than Caucasions on his resume'.

I was the flashest hw but probably no the greatest.

I was the flashest hw but probably no the greatest.
Hey if that's really you, big Tex Cobb, then I'd just like to say you were good and fun (and good fun), but were nowhere near the flashiest or the greatest... ...sorry, Tex. ;)

From a boxing standpoint, he had phenomenal (best ever?) natural talent, and the heart of a lion, but his technical skills were suspect.


Hmmmmmm........Ali's "technicals skills" were suspect????!!!

Thanks for educating me......I've been following the sport for over 40 years and always thought that his skills were what set him apart. I mistakenly thought that he was a student of the sport..taking the best of Archie Moore, Joe Lewis, Gene Tunney and others and adapting them to fit his style.
Silly me!
Live and learn, I guess!! :rolleyes:

The thing that makes it IMPOSSIBLE to rate Dempsey is the absence of any fighters other than Caucasions on his resume'.

Great point...just ask Wills, whom he never fought.

Hmmmmmm........Ali's "technicals skills" were suspect????!!!

Thanks for educating me......I've been following the sport for over 40 years and always thought that his skills were what set him apart. I mistakenly thought that he was a student of the sport..taking the best of Archie Moore, Joe Lewis, Gene Tunney and others and adapting them to fit his style.
Silly me!
Live and learn, I guess!! :rolleyes:
You're kidding me, right? I mean, you really think Ali was the amalgam of all the skills of Moore, Louis and Tunney? Say it isn't so!!

I agree with this, and in fact this is why I would call Ali the Greatest. From a boxing standpoint, he had phenomenal (best ever?) natural talent, and the heart of a lion, but his technical skills were suspect.

GasPed is correct. Ali dropped his hands, leaned away from punches and had trouble blocking a jab.

The thing that makes it IMPOSSIBLE to rate Dempsey is the absence of any fighters other than Caucasions on his resume'.

So is it impossible to rate Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb because they didn't play against players of other race?

Impossible to rate Dempsey??? Bull****, he fought Gene Tunney, one of the best pure boxers ever

Ali and Louis are definitely 1-2. I rank Ali slightly higher because he beat the best set of opponents of any fighter, ever. And don't forget, Ali lost over 3 years of his prime. Imagine what we'd be saying about him if politics didn't rob the sport he loved from a full, uninterupted career. For speed, ring savy, chin and heart Ali had no match.

That's just my opinion, but I'm right. :D

yes you are absolutely.

IBRO Member Poll, 2002

Joe Louis

Muhammad Ali

Jack Dempsey

Jack Johnson

Rocky Marciano

Jim Jeffries

Sonny Liston

Larry Holmes

George Foreman

Gene Tunney

This list seems to have it the best, even though you could argue about the positions of Ali and Louis. They both deserve to be in the top 2 but it's difficult to rank one over the other.

A popular poll like this is probably the best way to come up with a good list. Individual fans or writers always have their favourite fighters and guys they don't like and this always damages the credbility of their ratings.

sorry Gasped, the most gifted boxer of all time is Suger Ray Robinson.
Ali could not touch him for boxing ability.

Great Heavyweight???
great boxer Period
he brought more attention to the sport
than anyonel else.
and i know im gonna get
trashed for this comment
but the only other boxer to bring
close to all the attention Ali brough
is Mike Tyson. he brought boxing
to th main stream media again.

Ali was the greatest but 88 tyson was the best . I mean people say that tyson never beat a fighter when the odds were stacked against him , but michael soinks was 2/1 favourite to beat tyson and tyson blasted him out in 91 seconds without spinks even connecting with one punch .

Ali was the greatest but 88 tyson was the best . I mean people say that tyson never beat a fighter when the odds were stacked against him , but michael soinks was 2/1 favourite to beat tyson and tyson blasted him out in 91 seconds without spinks even connecting with one punch .

prime ali would dance circles around tyson for 15 rounds

Tyson wouldn't take fights he thought he might lose, either. Tyson was far from the best. He had incredible punch power, and good movement (he's duck, weave, bob stuff), but that's about it. Ali would have beaten him by UD, or stoppage on cuts.

Ye prime ali would dance circles around prime tyson just like prime ali danced circles around joe frazier . Anyways george foreman and archie moore said that tyson was the greatest heavyweight ever and that he would of even beat prime ali . gEORGE FOREMAN SAID IN 88 THAT ALI WAS GREAT BUT TYSON WAS LIKE SOMETHING FROM ANOTHER PLANET .

Anyways george foreman said that tyson was the greatest heavyweight ever

No he did not.

He said
Lennox Lewis was.

I think Ali was the best Boxer ever. Not only inside the ring but also how he fought to get abck into the ring and didnt go to war when he was called.
But then i also think Tyson was a bit overrated and the dempsey roll is the most dameging move ever in boxing :P.

I don't know if he was the greatest, but he sure was the most popular and unique. Boxers today wouldn't be making the kind of the money they're getting if it wasn't for Ali. His style was very flashy and graceful, which brought plenty of attention to the boxing world. People wanted to see him fight. While some people liked him and wanted to see him win, some hated his "****y" approach and would pay to see him lose. Either way they still paid to see him.

Ali and Ray Leonard both copied Ray Robinson's style,

Marciano - Only undefeated Heavyweight. Period. Ali lost what, 5 times?

Top of that I rate Lennox Lewis higher. 2 losses and both avenged. I agree with Foreman when it comes to Lewis over Ali.

Ali got so much attention because of the draft dodging while the other hippies were doing the same ****. Not to mention he became muslim.

As far as ali being the only fighter to cross over. Mike Tyson. He is still one of the most popular searches on the internet. Everyone who knows ali knows tyson.

Joe Louis #1....

Ali and Ray Leonard both copied Ray Robinson's style,

What other style were they supposed to use? :confused:

just cuz robinson used it dont mean others cant use it

I suggest you use your head...

Marciano - Only undefeated Heavyweight. Period. Ali lost what, 5 times?

Top of that I rate Lennox Lewis higher. 2 losses and both avenged. I agree with Foreman when it comes to Lewis over Ali.

Ali got so much attention because of the draft dodging while the other hippies were doing the same ****. Not to mention he became muslim.

As far as ali being the only fighter to cross over. Mike Tyson. He is still one of the most popular searches on the internet. Everyone who knows ali knows tyson.
I'm giving u bad karma for bein so stupid
Anyone can have a undefeated record but it dont mean ****
u can only learn from ur losses

you are a ****face

Ali was but not only because of his wins but because of the way he drew folks to boxing. His charisma, his style, he was fluid and had power

Mike Tyson was the greatest heavyweight in his prime. Prime Mike Tyson can beat any heavyweight in their prime. There is not one heavyweight who in their prime can stand up to prime Tyson. Tyson would knock them all unconcious, he'll take the fight out of them, he'll give them nightmares...the guy was a crazy son of a *****.

Ali and Louis!! :)

True, i think alot of people will put Ali in their #1 position because they don't know better, they think he's the best because they don't know enough about the other fighters, so they pick one alot of people use. No?

3 of ali's losses were avenged either twice or once.
Ali lost to joe frazier, he avenged that loss by defeating joe twice and that's exactly the same with Ken Norton.
When ali's career was almost finished he took a fighter called leon spinks too lightly and lost, he also avenged this in a rematch to regain the heavyweight title for a 3rd time.
After this fight he retired, but two years later he came out of retirement to fight future top 10 champion larry holmes.
Now it was clear that he was definetly was out of his prime for this fight and to add to that he was having alot of medical problems before the fight.
He lost by tko in the 11th round, that was the first time he had ever been stopped inside the distance.
His final fight was a better display but unfortunetly lost a slim close decison to future champion trevor berbick.
ONLY 2 of his defeats were not avenged and that was because he was an old fighter with the eventual diease that ali would have for the rest of his life, Parkinsons.

Hmmmmmm........Ali's "technicals skills" were suspect????!!!

Thanks for educating me......I've been following the sport for over 40 years and always thought that his skills were what set him apart. I mistakenly thought that he was a student of the sport..taking the best of Archie Moore, Joe Lewis, Gene Tunney and others and adapting them to fit his style.
Silly me!
Live and learn, I guess!! :rolleyes:
Well at least you can admit your mistake! Gas Ped is exactly right, I Ali indeed was never that technically sound AT ALL. I'm no Ali hater either.

True, i think alot of people will put Ali in their #1 position because they don't know better, they think he's the best because they don't know enough about the other fighters, so they pick one alot of people use. No?
That is a very good point. Alot of people put Ali as number one because he had the biggest mouth. He's certainly the most famous heavyweight ever and, I think, one of the top champs ever...but he was NOT the best. I would also like to make a couple of other observations:

1. He could be deragatory and hateful. He called Joe Frazier a gorilla because his of his real black skin and he did in front of Marvis Frazier. He said Frazier was ugly, that he was gorilla, and that he was "d-d-d-dumb." That sort of racial hatefullness was uncalled for, for whatever reason, especially not to promote a freakin fight, especially after Frazier had helped him, especially at that uneasy time in our nations history for African Americans, and especially when Frazier's son heard it all. (As a sidenote that also triggers a racial undertone, Ali spoke adamantly about the dirtiness of interracial marriage.)

2. Ali was no rocket scientist. He was a great fighter, but he got used as a pawn by some of the more militant forces that got him to say really stupid things (see interracial comment above) that I hope he didn't actually believe.

Those things have always bothered me about Ali the man. And no, I don't hate him. I think he did alot for the sport and fighting wise he was truly a real good fighter. But I admit that I did feel somewhat vindicated for ole' Smokin' Joe when Frazier asked Ali years later "whose d-d-d-d-dumb now?" "Who w-w-w-won those fights now, Muhammed?" on some radio show. It was inappropiate, but I could understand where Frazier was coming from.

O.K., everyone unleash on me...

the man is the greatest cause he said he is, period.

That is a very good point. Alot of people put Ali as number one because he had the biggest mouth. He's certainly the most famous heavyweight ever and, I think, one of the top champs ever...but he was NOT the best. I would also like to make a couple of other observations:

1. He could be deragatory and hateful. He called Joe Frazier a gorilla because his of his real black skin and he did in front of Marvis Frazier. He said Frazier was ugly, that he was gorilla, and that he was "d-d-d-dumb." That sort of racial hatefullness was uncalled for, for whatever reason, especially not to promote a freakin fight, especially after Frazier had helped him, especially at that uneasy time in our nations history for African Americans, and especially when Frazier's son heard it all. (As a sidenote that also triggers a racial undertone, Ali spoke adamantly about the dirtiness of interracial marriage.)

2. Ali was no rocket scientist. He was a great fighter, but he got used as a pawn by some of the more militant forces that got him to say really stupid things (see interracial comment above) that I hope he didn't actually believe.

Those things have always bothered me about Ali the man. And no, I don't hate him. I think he did alot for the sport and fighting wise he was truly a real good fighter. But I admit that I did feel somewhat vindicated for ole' Smokin' Joe when Frazier asked Ali years later "whose d-d-d-d-dumb now?" "Who w-w-w-won those fights now, Muhammed?" on some radio show. It was inappropiate, but I could understand where Frazier was coming from.

O.K., everyone unleash on me...

Ali's **** talk was fun but he took it over the line

If I was Frazier, I would've said the same, Ali must have hurt him really bad by his additude

Now Frazier can do his talkin back.....

Joe Frazier was a VERY underrated heavyweight

I might be a ****face but at least I can figure out how to wear a hat properly...moron.

Ali was a *****, bottom line.

By the way your lips look pretty big. Do you enjoy sucking Ali's dick?

Oh no the internet soldier is going to start typing... LOL

You are a joke child.

u aint funny u know...

btw the hat to the side is rippuh style

so read the posts b4 u talk ****

how is ali a *****....I ain't a Ali fan but how is he a pusssy

He fought Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier and George Foreman

He took hella shots from Foreman and went to war with Frazier 3 times

and what have you done in the ring that makes u so brave?

Your post at least made more sense instead of calling names.

He did fight some of the greatest...but.

Part of being a fighter in brains. He didn't have enough to retire when he should have. Lennox and Marciano got out in time.

Don't post after me calling names cause I will give it back to you. If you want me to explain something or elaborate on something I will. Don't **** talk me first.

Ali may not have been the greatest heavyweight of all time, but Cassius Clay was. It's unfair that Ali is judged by his fights after the 3 year layoff. Watch Clay's fight against Sonny Liston, and then watch Ali dismantle Cleveland Williams - they're things of beauty. I think the Williams fight is the most masterful performance I've ever seen.

I also don't understand how Ali is a *****. Is it his moral opposition to the War in Vietnam? Because it's clearly not in the ring. To me, that shows far more courage than fear - he challenged the system, and sacrficed the best years of his life for his beliefs. There was absolutely no way Ali's life would be in danger if he actually accepted being drafted - he would be used for USO shows and such, just like Joe Louis in WWII.

No champion can claim they beat as many legends as Ali. Liston, Frazier, Foreman. Maybe Marciano, excpet he beat Louis and Walcott after their prime. Ali fought the 2 best he ever fought (Frazier and Foreman) AFTER his prime. That's what makes Ali so good.

Ali is the greatest and nobody else is close. Before his exile, his speed and skill made him unbeatable. When he returned, his courage made him unconquerable.

That is a very good point. Alot of people put Ali as number one because he had the biggest mouth. He's certainly the most famous heavyweight ever and, I think, one of the top champs ever...but he was NOT the best. I would also like to make a couple of other observations:

1. He could be deragatory and hateful. He called Joe Frazier a gorilla because his of his real black skin and he did in front of Marvis Frazier. He said Frazier was ugly, that he was gorilla, and that he was "d-d-d-dumb." That sort of racial hatefullness was uncalled for, for whatever reason, especially not to promote a freakin fight, especially after Frazier had helped him, especially at that uneasy time in our nations history for African Americans, and especially when Frazier's son heard it all. (As a sidenote that also triggers a racial undertone, Ali spoke adamantly about the dirtiness of interracial marriage.)

2. Ali was no rocket scientist. He was a great fighter, but he got used as a pawn by some of the more militant forces that got him to say really stupid things (see interracial comment above) that I hope he didn't actually believe.

Those things have always bothered me about Ali the man. And no, I don't hate him. I think he did alot for the sport and fighting wise he was truly a real good fighter. But I admit that I did feel somewhat vindicated for ole' Smokin' Joe when Frazier asked Ali years later "whose d-d-d-d-dumb now?" "Who w-w-w-won those fights now, Muhammed?" on some radio show. It was inappropiate, but I could understand where Frazier was coming from.

O.K., everyone unleash on me...


Joe Frazier should have grown a little thicker skin. Everybody knows that Ali's antics were used to hype the fight, and it worked. Ali also called Foreman the "mummy" and called Frazier the "Gorilla". There is no way on this green earth these were racial slurs. It's bull**** to even mention them as such. He also rubbed Ernie Shavers head. Was that racial too?

Ali is not dumb, he just suffers from a debillitating disease. Frazier's speech is slurred as we speak. Joe Frazier is not smart enough to realize that the fights with Ali ended years ago. I seriously believe that. The man is clearly diminished.

Ali is number one because no other heavyweight in history had the athletic speed, size, granite chin and ring saavy that Ali showed. He ruled the division from 64 until the late 70's. He was a gold medalist and a credit to the sport of boxing.

I am most certainly saddened by the fact that he took too much punishment in the ring and has to live with the neurological results of it. Many fighters suffer from this.

Muhammad Ali is the greatest of all times.

props to my man bareknuckes, and screw the person who called me an ali nuthugger!!!

Joe Frazier should have grown a little thicker skin. Everybody knows that Ali's antics were used to hype the fight, and it worked. Ali also called Foreman the "mummy" and called Frazier the "Gorilla". There is no way on this green earth these were racial slurs. It's bull**** to even mention them as such. He also rubbed Ernie Shavers head. Was that racial too?

The fact that you can even say that proves how clueless you really are. You have no idea how bad he actually hurt Frazier outside the ring. Here is an example:

In the medieval morality play of Ali's public life, there had to be a demon worthy of his virtue. If one did not exist, Ali and his media friends would create one. At the end of the day, Ali's role in this creation would prove to be the great, unforgivable sin of his life, greater than his mindless draft dodging, the casual humiliation of his five or so wives, his betrayal of Malcolm X, the reckless pursuit of money that would leave him punch drunk, even the abandonment of certain of his children.

That creation was Joe Frazier. In a cruel and unceasing string of abuse, Ali and friends managed to turn this humble, hard-working child of a one-armed South Carolina sharecropper into the most despised man in Black America, a pariah even in his own city of Philadelphia.

As Sports Illustrated's main boxing reporter during Ali's career, Mark Kram witnessed this ritual defamation on a regular basis. He recounts one chilling episode during a run-up to a Frazier fight in a gym packed with Ali fans.

As Kram tells it, after leading the frenzied crowd in chants of "the greatest," Ali then threw out the word, "gorilla" and taunted the audience to respond.

"Joe Frazier," yelled one white guy. "Ape! Ape!" shouted a young blond woman. "Jist ******s," screamed a black guy.

"Ain't that the truth," said Ali to the last comment, dropping to his haunches. "Gorilla," he howled now. "Ugly and smelly." And as Ali lurched ape-like around the ring, his fans jeered the mock Frazier much in the way the Parisian rabble might have jeered Quasimoto.

For the light-skinned Ali and his fans, Joe Frazier was both too black and not black enough. "A little old ****** boy from Philadelphia," Ali taunted him, "who never had a thought in his dumb head 'cept for himself." Even if there were an appropriate response, Frazier had no microphone. Ali owned the media. The psychic blows from this relentless assault bruised Frazier more deeply than all the punches of all the fights he ever fought.

That is just one example of how Ali treated Frazier.

I have to say, being alive back then, that many people were appalled at Ali's complete lack of respect for sportmanship, and his opponents. He had ridiculous charisma, but when he used it to denigrate his opponents (most of whom were soft-spoken or poor speakers), it was just too much. I, for one, rooted against him in all of the Frazier fights, just because of that arrogance.

It wasn't until he slowed down and became vulnerable himself (not to mention becoming more humble) that he became a sympathetic character.

Hi fellas. Ali was great, no argument there. But the greatest. Always wonder how good the Langfords, Wills, Jeanettes were and how they'd fit in. Seems only champions get in the lists.

nope tyson was. ali is #3

i dont think ali should of talked about frazier like that especially in front of his son but he was better than tyson ali #1 tyson # 50

No champion can claim they beat as many legends as Ali. Liston, Frazier, Foreman. Maybe Marciano, excpet he beat Louis and Walcott after their prime. Ali fought the 2 best he ever fought (Frazier and Foreman) AFTER his prime. That's what makes Ali so good.

Louis may have been out of his prime but he was still a top contender then so you can't even say that it was an easy fight......and Marciano could have beat Ali an out of shape Marciano held his own with Ali so w.e though i know there are ppl that disagree but Marciano would've one that fight no question

a hard fight none the less
________
KarinaLYNX (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/KarinaLYNX/)

Louis may have been out of his prime but he was still a top contender then so you can't even say that it was an easy fight......and Marciano could have beat Ali an out of shape Marciano held his own with Ali so w.e though i know there are ppl that disagree but Marciano would've one that fight no question

a hard fight none the less

Dumbest thing I've heard...

why is everyone hating on ali, i don't understand that? ali is the greatest, and it needs no explanation, everyone knows why he is the greatest. it's just that people don't like him for some reason i can't get. he made all the people he fought except a couple due to his age look stupid and he did so in great fashion. and many people bash him cause they say he wasn't that strong. number one he had incredible strength! he friggin' pushed sonny liston away from clenches, you call that weak. and he could have puched hard not just in the 70s but also in the 60s too, it's just that he didn't stand flat-footed like he did in the 70s. he gained like 5 pounds during the layoff and that makes you punch hard if at 5 pounds lighter you couldn't punch at all? the only explanation for his boost in power punching is that he always could, it's just that he was on his toes too much. but ask people like cleveland williams, sonny liston, brian london, floyd patterson, and zora folley, about his punching power: they all fought him in the 60's, when he was supposedly weak, right? but they could tell you that his punches hurt as they all got ko'd, except patterson and liston, but he would have ko'd patterson if he wanted to, and liston would have been ko'd in the 8th as clay predicted if sonny didn't quit after the 6th round. so all this crap that ya'll talk about ali, is garbage, you keep trying to pull him down a peg, but you know he is the real perfect fighter, not louis or tyson, cause everyone wants to be like him, including all you ali haters.

[[[[Joe Frazier should have grown a little thicker skin.]]]]
=========================

You should grow some brains, but we realize you can't grow something from nothing. Frazier's kids were getting into fights at schools with kids mimicking Ali and calling their father a Tom or a gorilla. Ali was incredibly racist back then though it ain't PC to admit it today since he matured.

[[[[Joe Frazier should have grown a little thicker skin.]]]]
=========================

You should grow some brains, but we realize you can't grow something from nothing. Frazier's kids were getting into fights at schools with kids mimicking Ali and calling their father a Tom or a gorilla. Ali was incredibly racist back then though it ain't PC to admit it today since he matured.

"Hating people because of their color is wrong. And it doesn't matter which color does the hating. It's just plain wrong."

ali said this, so that nullifies your argument there. and how is making fun of frazier make him a racist? ali is friggin' black! how is a black gonna be racist against another black? think about what you say before you say it please.

Dumbest thing I've heard...

hey internet's for voicing opinions wether u believe them rite or wrong

i don't like ali but i don't hate him.... i'm not gunna take the fact that he probably was in the top 10 best heavyweights and anyone that takes that away from him is pretty dumb but it ain't dumb to think that marciano would beat him
________
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why is everyone hating on ali, i don't understand that? ali is the greatest, and it needs no explanation, everyone knows why he is the greatest. it's just that people don't like him for some reason i can't get. he made all the people he fought except a couple due to his age look stupid and he did so in great fashion. and many people bash him cause they say he wasn't that strong. number one he had incredible strength! he friggin' pushed sonny liston away from clenches, you call that weak. and he could have puched hard not just in the 70s but also in the 60s too, it's just that he didn't stand flat-footed like he did in the 70s. he gained like 5 pounds during the layoff and that makes you punch hard if at 5 pounds lighter you couldn't punch at all? the only explanation for his boost in power punching is that he always could, it's just that he was on his toes too much. but ask people like cleveland williams, sonny liston, brian london, floyd patterson, and zora folley, about his punching power: they all fought him in the 60's, when he was supposedly weak, right? but they could tell you that his punches hurt as they all got ko'd, except patterson and liston, but he would have ko'd patterson if he wanted to, and liston would have been ko'd in the 8th as clay predicted if sonny didn't quit after the 6th round. so all this crap that ya'll talk about ali, is garbage, you keep trying to pull him down a peg, but you know he is the real perfect fighter, not louis or tyson, cause everyone wants to be like him, including all you ali haters.


i don't wanna be like ali....like i said just a moment ago he is in the top 10 and ther's no way i'd ever take punching power away from him cause it was there i'm just saying that Marciano could beat him

Marciano's defense was underrated quite a bit

but i'll tell u one thing wether u like it or not Ali basically is the first face that comes to most ppl when they thing of boxing, almost like an ambassador
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hey internet's for voicing opinions wether u believe them rite or wrong

i don't like ali but i don't hate him.... i'm not gunna take the fact that he probably was in the top 10 best heavyweights and anyone that takes that away from him is pretty dumb but it ain't dumb to think that marciano would beat him

there is no way in hell marciano could beat him. he is too small and too slow. marciano is probably p4p the slowest hw ever, and ali is definetely the fastest, so rocky can't hit muhammad and gets stopped or ko'd in the late or mid rounds.

there is no way in hell marciano could beat him. he is too small and too slow. marciano is probably p4p the slowest hw ever, and ali is definetely the fastest, so rocky can't hit muhammad and gets stopped or ko'd in the late or mid rounds.

well if u need proof as to the fact that an out of shape Marciano wasn't only stronger then ali in his prime but a better person look at this site of when they were filming the comp sim

http://www.mackinacmedia.com/SuperFight/history2.htm

Marciano even though he was still alittle out of shape and old wanted to turn it into a real fight

Marciano respected ali but ali had little respect for maricano

Ali even said
"I can't believe how strong and how hard Rocky can hit," he said. "Marciano was a lot harder to hit with a jab then he looked. I can feel how great Marciano must have been just from being in the ring with him when he was 46 years old. I can't even imagine what Rocky must have been like in his prime."
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That means absolutely nothing, Muhammad Ali didn't train for that fight NOR take it seriously... it was A FILM in combination with a computer that was less powerful then a modern calculator... Marciano trained very hard for that fight. A prime, trained Ali would beat him... the fact of the matter is he is too fast and fancy, can absorb too much punishment, has a concrete chin and whilst losing on points the rock wouldn't be able to drop him.

That means absolutely nothing, Muhammad Ali didn't train for that fight NOR take it seriously... it was A FILM in combination with a computer that was less powerful then a modern calculator... Marciano trained very hard for that fight. A prime, trained Ali would beat him... the fact of the matter is he is too fast and fancy, can absorb too much punishment, has a concrete chin and whilst losing on points the rock wouldn't be able to drop him.

WOW it never said Rocky Was in shape what it said is he had to train hard to work off some weight in order for anyone to take it seriously when that was filmed he weighed 240 something pounds...had he been down to his normal 185 and younger he would of crippled ali prime or not and u saw what ali said "I can't believe how strong and how hard Rocky can hit," he said.

"Marciano was a lot harder to hit with a jab then he looked. I can feel how great Marciano must have been just from being in the ring with him when he was 46 years old. I can't even imagine what Rocky must have been like in his prime."
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http://www.********boxing.com/news.php?p=26&more=1

Heres a link of a sports writer commenting on the matter, good article, no doubt Marciano would be a handful... but inevitably lose to 67' Ali.

thats a dead link
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well if u need proof as to the fact that an out of shape Marciano wasn't only stronger then ali in his prime but a better person look at this site of when they were filming the comp sim

http://www.mackinacmedia.com/SuperFight/history2.htm

Marciano even though he was still alittle out of shape and old wanted to turn it into a real fight

Marciano respected ali but ali had little respect for maricano

Ali even said
"I can't believe how strong and how hard Rocky can hit," he said. "Marciano was a lot harder to hit with a jab then he looked. I can feel how great Marciano must have been just from being in the ring with him when he was 46 years old. I can't even imagine what Rocky must have been like in his prime."

oh, so ali wasn't out of shape too? ali was about 25lbs over weight during the layoff, but no he is the same ali in '67 getting it handed to him by an old out of shape marciano as you say. the fact is that the computer fight was probably made up by white marciano fans who were mad that ali didn't join the army so they made him lose.

oh, so ali wasn't out of shape too? ali was about 25lbs over weight during the layoff, but no he is the same ali in '67 getting it handed to him by an old out of shape marciano as you say. the fact is that the computer fight was probably made up by white marciano fans who were mad that ali didn't join the army so they made him lose.

its funny cause its not like i'm making up stuff i'm seeking that facts and ur just coming up with excuses. There's no proof at all that white marciano fans made the fight and even if they did u can't say they made the words out of his mouth up
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its funny cause its not like i'm making up stuff i'm seeking that facts and ur just coming up with excuses. There's no proof at all that white marciano fans made the fight and even if they did u can't say they made the words out of his mouth up

i'm saying that you said an old marciano hurt him, but ali was out of shape, and he couldn't dance, so that doesn't prove anything.

[[[[Joe Frazier should have grown a little thicker skin.]]]]
=========================

You should grow some brains, but we realize you can't grow something from nothing. Frazier's kids were getting into fights at schools with kids mimicking Ali and calling their father a Tom or a gorilla. Ali was incredibly racist back then though it ain't PC to admit it today since he matured.

Your a ****en moron, Muhammad Ali belonged to the nation of islam for a short period of time... in this time he believed in SEPERATISM NOT RACISM... in other words he believed in black independence and he didn't believe in interacial marriage... BUT he still liked white people, his trainer was white... he respected many a white folk, funnily enough he was a friend of howard corsell. After he left the nation of islam he became an ORTHODOX Muslim and his ideals changed... he believed in unity.

also if i'm not mistaken he fought Carmine Vingo (6'4 and 230LBS about) and he had (if i'm not mistaken) a longer reach then ali
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i'm saying that you said an old marciano hurt him, but ali was out of shape, and he couldn't dance, so that doesn't prove anything.

well i'm not completely sure what ur saying but ali said himself that he can't imagine rocky in his prime and thats enough for me but nobody can take ali being a great fighter away from him
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also if i'm not mistaken he fought Carmine Vingo (6'4 and 230LBS about) and he had (if i'm not mistaken) a longer reach then ali

and who is vingo, ...exactly, nobody. ali is not vingo, or whoever he is. ali would dehumanize rocky with his stinging jabs.

i brought up carmine vingo to state that rocky didn't have trouble against tall guys with long reaches, and just jabs aren't going to win the fight rocky would just beat up on his body and move to his head
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WOW it never said Rocky Was in shape what it said is he had to train hard to work off some weight in order for anyone to take it seriously when that was filmed he weighed 240 something pounds...had he been down to his normal 185 and younger he would of crippled ali prime or not and u saw what ali said "I can't believe how strong and how hard Rocky can hit," he said.

"Marciano was a lot harder to hit with a jab then he looked. I can feel how great Marciano must have been just from being in the ring with him when he was 46 years old. I can't even imagine what Rocky must have been like in his prime."

LOL, yes he would inflict some damage on Ali when he did manage to cut off the ring... he would cripple Ali? really like Foreman crippled Ali? Or maybe how Frazier crippled Ali? Or Shavers? Or Liston? Marciano never hit harder then any of these guys, he would have to cut off the ring in order to hit Ali... something he fail to do regulary... It wouldn't be an easy fight but if you can't see that Ali would win you really need to read up on your boxing my friend.... THE COMPUTER fight isn't relevant, Muhammad didn't have much respect for Mariciano, he didn't realise he could hit hard... thus the comments at the end, it wasn't him admitting that Marciano would defeat him... If you think the computer fight had any bearing on reality, your incredibly naieve.

i brought up carmine vingo to state that rocky didn't have trouble against tall guys with long reaches, and just jabs aren't going to win the fight rocky would just beat up on his body and move to his head

ali had a strong midsection, so i don't imagine marciano winning the fight on body shots. marciano has inferior reach so i don't know how he's gonna get close enough to ali's body if ali is always dancing!

i brought up carmine vingo to state that rocky didn't have trouble against tall guys with long reaches, and just jabs aren't going to win the fight rocky would just beat up on his body and move to his head

Its not the height or the reach, Its the fact that Marcianos footwork was too crude thus he wouldn't be able to cut him off and work the body and head... Alis comprehension of range was the best ever seen, he would control the range and pick marciano off.. When Marciano did get inside he would land some shots but Ali has proven he has the Jaw and durability to take the shots OF FOREMAN... marciano doesn't hit that hard... Ali would win this on points.

Reading your posts this just gets worse... Ali can't imagine him in his prime, first thats a 'matter of speech' second that doesn't equate into: MARCIANO COULD BEAT ME, At his age his speed and his stamina may have diminished... but not his power. Let me guess, your senseless hardline views must mean YOUR ITALIAN.

Reading your posts this just gets worse... Ali can't imagine him in his prime, first thats a 'matter of speech' second that doesn't equate into: MARCIANO COULD BEAT ME, At his age his speed and his stamina may have diminished... but not his power. Let me guess, your senseless hardline views must mean YOUR ITALIAN.

ha, ha. pretty good post.

Ali is made out to be some sort of God that could never be hit. The fact is that Rocky Marciano was one of the most vicious punchers ever. He had VICIOUS body punches, and he would of worked the body and TKO'D Ali once Ali dropped his gloves. Ali always had trouble with the swarming, slugger types, and Rocky was the best at swarming his opponent.

Ali had trouble with Frazier, but Rocky had a better chin, and a bigger punch.

LOL, yes he would inflict some damage on Ali when he did manage to cut off the ring... he would cripple Ali? really like Foreman crippled Ali? Or maybe how Frazier crippled Ali? Or Shavers? Or Liston? Marciano never hit harder then any of these guys, he would have to cut off the ring in order to hit Ali... something he fail to do regulary... It wouldn't be an easy fight but if you can't see that Ali would win you really need to read up on your boxing my friend.... THE COMPUTER fight isn't relevant, Muhammad didn't have much respect for Mariciano, he didn't realise he could hit hard... thus the comments at the end, it wasn't him admitting that Marciano would defeat him... If you think the computer fight had any bearing on reality, your incredibly naieve.

ok first off Marciano hit harder then all those guys and the only any one ever questions is Foreman hitting harder then Marciano, 2nd, i did see the fight between foreman and ali, foreman lasted 5 rounds at the most (i also give ali alot of credit for the fight cause he didn't use his feet) Marciano could've lasted 12 rounds at least, and would of one because of his bone shattering strength, if the same thing happened to marciano that happened to foreman then marciano was smart enough to back off and let ali come out but just go back to beating on him just not against the ropes, and i really wasn't bringing up the comp fight itself just the whole marciano hitting ali

i never said it would be an easy fight for marciano and eventually marciano's bodyshots would do something to ali and its not like he would just keep hitting the midsection he switched alot
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Ali is made out to be some sort of God that could never be hit. The fact is that Rocky Marciano was one of the most vicious punchers ever. He had VICIOUS body punches, and he would of worked the body and TKO'D Ali once Ali dropped his gloves. Ali always had trouble with the swarming, slugger types, and Rocky was the best at swarming his opponent.

Ali had trouble with Frazier, but Rocky had a better chin, and a bigger punch.

thank you, i really couldn't have put it better myself
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Reading your posts this just gets worse... Ali can't imagine him in his prime, first thats a 'matter of speech' second that doesn't equate into: MARCIANO COULD BEAT ME, At his age his speed and his stamina may have diminished... but not his power. Let me guess, your senseless hardline views must mean YOUR ITALIAN.

ha nah man i'm irish but thats funny

i'm just a big fan of rocky
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Ali is made out to be some sort of God that could never be hit. The fact is that Rocky Marciano was one of the most vicious punchers ever. He had VICIOUS body punches, and he would of worked the body and TKO'D Ali once Ali dropped his gloves. Ali always had trouble with the swarming, slugger types, and Rocky was the best at swarming his opponent.

Ali had trouble with Frazier, but Rocky had a better chin, and a bigger punch.

ok, now what does never being hit have to do with being vicious. marciano was the slowest hw i've ever seen, and that is pretty sad, seeing as how he was probably the smallest lol!

a prime ali could not be hit by one good shot from marciano, so ali dances around him and stops hit on cuts in the mid rounds, or kos him very late. i kind of don't see this fight going the distance.

i know ali was fast but he could be stopped he's not untouchable

Marciano was smarter then you'd think in the ring
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Um i dont think he had a better chin or a better punch. Ali wasn't at his prime when he fought any swarmer, Marciano didn't swarm like frazier, he moved slower with his agressive crouching style... Marciano didn't hit harder then frazier, nor Liston, nor Foreman and your REALLY naieve if you thought otherwise. THE COMPUTER FIGHT MEANS NOTHING... ALI WASN'T TRAINED, WASN'T CONDITIONED... Foreman pounded Ali's body harder then Marciano would EVER be able to for 8 rounds and he never dropped. BUT my main point is Marciano didn't swarm as quickly as frazier, moved slower then frazier and against Muhammad ali in his prime would not be able to cut Ali off regulary enough to inflict enough damage... it would be a repeat of a Frazier vs Ali fight with Ali being able to fight and Marciano being slower.

Its possible he equalled strength with Frazier, but frazier threw them in greater numbers.

Um i dont think he had a better chin or a better punch. Ali wasn't at his prime when he fought any swarmer, Marciano didn't swarm like frazier, he moved slower with his agressive crouching style... Marciano didn't hit harder then frazier, nor Liston, nor Foreman and your REALLY naieve if you thought otherwise. THE COMPUTER FIGHT MEANS NOTHING... ALI WASN'T TRAINED, WASN'T CONDITIONED... Foreman pounded Ali's body harder then Marciano would EVER be able to for 8 rounds and he never dropped. BUT my main point is Marciano didn't swarm as quickly as frazier, moved slower then frazier and against Muhammad ali in his prime would not be able to cut Ali off regulary enough to inflict enough damage... it would be a repeat of a Frazier vs Ali fight with Ali being able to fight and Marciano being slower.

Like i just said marciano was the hardest hitter basically unarguabley, the only person that even came close enough for u to think was harder was foreman and Marciano had far more stamina then Foreman if you don't believe that then ur the naieve one
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www.********boxing/news.php?p=26&more=1

Trying this Link again... im sure its modified when i post it.

Its possible he equalled strength with Frazier, but frazier threw them in greater numbers.
pls just look at the statistics there all there Marciano harder then everyone and the even came close was foreman
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www.********boxing/news.php?p=26&more=1

Trying this Link again... im sure its modified when i post it.
no sry nothing
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Right where those stars are TYPE IN ******** .... for some reason the moderators won't let you link to the rival site.

go figure, thats wierd but what can u do
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Frazier was so predictable with his head movement when he fought Ali, that's why he always got peppered with jabs, and right crosses.

I think the fact that Marciano, who is arguably the biggest puncher to ever grace boxing, and the fact that he is a swarmer would affect Ali's shot of beating him. If you look at the fight with Frazier, Frazier was really a one-punch trick. His left hook was a devestating shot, but he did not use it like Marciano did to set up his right hand. Frazier had a good right hand no doubt, but it wasn't on Marciano's level.

Marciano was relentless with the way he fought. He had so much heart, so much courage that eventually He would get to Ali on the ropes and just beat on the arms and shoulders until Ali dropped his hands and Marciano would eventually knock him out.

I'll send some vids in soon of boxing bouts…

Frazier was so predictable with his head movement when he fought Ali, that's why he always got peppered with jabs, and right crosses.

I think the fact that Marciano, who is arguably the biggest puncher to ever grace boxing, and the fact that he is a swarmer would affect Ali's shot of beating him. If you look at the fight with Frazier, Frazier was really a one-punch trick. His left hook was a devestating shot, but he did not use it like Marciano did to set up his right hand. Frazier had a good right hand no doubt, but it wasn't on Marciano's level.

Marciano was relentless with the way he fought. He had so much heart, so much courage that eventually He would get to Ali on the ropes and just beat on the arms and shoulders until Ali dropped his hands and Marciano would eventually knock him out.


You aren't getting this are you... Any sportswriter, anyone that KNOWS anythign about boxing knows Marciano wasn't the heaviest hitter of all time, That Ali has Been hit with bigger shots. Marciano swarmed SLOWER then Frazier, significantly slower... frazier only fought Ali after his prime, not the dancing Ali... he wouldn't be able to cut Ali off and are you trying to tell me hes going to inflict more damage then George Foreman? Earnie Shavers? Sonny Liston? Frazier Would probably be AS powerful as Marciano but he had greater handspeed... Marciano wouldn't be able to cut Ali off and when he did hes not going to drop the man with the most conditioned body and best jaw of anyone witnessed.. end of story. Ali Had just as much Courage as Marciano, can absorb more punishment then any other boxer witnessed and is the only fighter Marciano doesn't have the advantage in relation to 'HEART' over..... go read up on your boxing history before you spout ****.

pls just look at the statistics there all there Marciano harder then everyone and the even came close was foreman

Where are the statistics that show Maricano hit harder then everyone? FOREMAN hit harder then Marciano, Shavers hit harder then Marciano, DEMPSEY hit harder then Marciano and im sure Frazier and Tyson would hit as hard.

Frazier was so predictable with his head movement when he fought Ali, that's why he always got peppered with jabs, and right crosses.

I think the fact that Marciano, who is arguably the biggest puncher to ever grace boxing, and the fact that he is a swarmer would affect Ali's shot of beating him. If you look at the fight with Frazier, Frazier was really a one-punch trick. His left hook was a devestating shot, but he did not use it like Marciano did to set up his right hand. Frazier had a good right hand no doubt, but it wasn't on Marciano's level.

Marciano was relentless with the way he fought. He had so much heart, so much courage that eventually He would get to Ali on the ropes and just beat on the arms and shoulders until Ali dropped his hands and Marciano would eventually knock him out.

I agree that this would be highly possible. Whoever won this fight would still look like they got hit by a truck.

For all the people on here who automatically assume Ali was the greatest just because he said so...

Did you know that in Ali's "prime" he was dropped by 180 lbs Henry Cooper? Or that a little man, Doug Jones wobbled him visibly in their fight?

This was before he was suspended from boxing...

There is this myth that Muhammed Ali was this UNBEATABLE force. He was quite beatable, in fact he has received around four or five GIFT decisions due to his name...

Ali called himself the greatest often enough that people started to call him that too, sportwriters caught on to this new breed of athlete...Ali was the first major self-promoter...he brought in the era of the egotistical athlete.

He is certainly one of the best heavyweights of all time, but in head-to-head competition, I can forsee a few greats beating him.

Let's not get carried away and say his "footwork" would enable him to dance circles around any great, such as Tyson, MArciano, Holmes, Lewis, Holyfield, etc...He got caught during his prime by much, much lesser fighters.

Remember, his competition in the 1960s was not so great. By the time he fought Cleveland Williams, Williams was far-removed from his best. Liston threw the second fight. Henry Cooper and Doug Jones had him in trouble. He got pretty good gifts against Lyle and Norton. Chuck Wepner dropped him.

Ali was an all-time great, but I dont blindly buy into the hype that he easily beats any one on any day as so many uninformed fans do.

Ali was a great fighter and great heavy, but his poor fans are delusional, kinda like Rocky, Tito, Tyson, or Manny fans. Poor boys who were always whupped up on while growin' up need heros to idolize.

wow this is the first time i ever heard anyone say that Marciano isn't the hardest hitter, i thought everybody relized it

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like i said Foreman and Marciano are very close but Marciano still hits harder
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For all the people on here who automatically assume Ali was the greatest just because he said so...

Did you know that in Ali's "prime" he was dropped by 180 lbs Henry Cooper? Or that a little man, Doug Jones wobbled him visibly in their fight?

This was before he was suspended from boxing...

There is this myth that Muhammed Ali was this UNBEATABLE force. He was quite beatable, in fact he has received around four or five GIFT decisions due to his name...

Ali called himself the greatest often enough that people started to call him that too, sportwriters caught on to this new breed of athlete...Ali was the first major self-promoter...he brought in the era of the egotistical athlete.

He is certainly one of the best heavyweights of all time, but in head-to-head competition, I can forsee a few greats beating him.

Let's not get carried away and say his "footwork" would enable him to dance circles around any great, such as Tyson, MArciano, Holmes, Lewis, Holyfield, etc...He got caught during his prime by much, much lesser fighters.

Remember, his competition in the 1960s was not so great. By the time he fought Cleveland Williams, Williams was far-removed from his best. Liston threw the second fight. Henry Cooper and Doug Jones had him in trouble. He got pretty good gifts against Lyle and Norton. Chuck Wepner dropped him.

Ali was an all-time great, but I dont blindly buy into the hype that he easily beats any one on any day as so many uninformed fans do.


I read, i watch his videos... and thus i know he was the greatest, Cleveland williams was at his peak he beat LYLE CLEARLY and he beat norton twice... He never fought cooper in his prime, he fought cooper as the young, naieve CASSIUS clay.. he was at his prime in 1967... chuck wepner dropped him, he got back up and won did he not? you are referring to CASSIUS CLAY in most of your response. No boxer would ever beat a prime 1967 Ali 3/5 times, and majority of the sports writers and rankings by KNOWLEDGEABLE, reputable boxing experts agree.

you give me a link to peoples opinions, thats one sports writer, when i have read other sports writers stating SHAVERS is the most powerful, others saying FOREMAN. The point still stands, Ali had the greatest Chin of any heavyweight, the most condition of any heavyweight, if he can take shots to the head from shavers and foreman Marciano isn't going to drop him... if he can take 8 rounds of foreman pummeling the body, marciano isn't going to drop him. Its not going to be like rumble and the jungle when Ali lost his ability to move fluidly in the ring, marciano having slower footwork would not be able to CUT OFF ali... and when he did Ali would absorb his punishment and simply tie him up. Marciano may have been powerful but he didn't have the handspeed of say frazier, and like foreman going from body to head will be in VAIN. Ali will Tie him up, move around the periphery and pick him off... im not saying Ali was invincible, he could be beaten, never 3/5 times in his prime, but marciano is not the type of fighter that would beat Ali. Ali fought well against agressors in his prime, they would move forward and he would control the range and counter punch... someone like Louis would give a Prime Ali trouble.

like i said Foreman and Marciano are very close but Marciano still hits harder

Yep. The power of Marciano's punch is amazing.

you give me a link to peoples opinions, thats one sports writer, when i have read other sports writers stating SHAVERS is the most powerful, others saying FOREMAN. The point still stands, Ali had the greatest Chin of any heavyweight, the most condition of any heavyweight, if he can take shots to the head from shavers and foreman Marciano isn't going to drop him... if he can take 8 rounds of foreman pummeling the body, marciano isn't going to drop him. Its not going to be like rumble and the jungle when Ali lost his ability to move fluidly in the ring, marciano having slower footwork would not be able to CUT OFF ali... and when he did Ali would absorb his punishment and simply tie him up. Marciano may have been powerful but he didn't have the handspeed of say frazier, and like foreman going from body to head will be in VAIN. Ali will Tie him up, move around the periphery and pick him off... im not saying Ali was invincible, he could be beaten, never 3/5 times in his prime, but marciano is not the type of fighter that would beat Ali. Ali fought well against agressors in his prime, they would move forward and he would control the range and counter punch... someone like Louis would give a Prime Ali trouble.

Foreman lost his punch at 5 rounds. Since he didn't train for 12 rounders, He lost his strength and his punch usually at 5. According to all of the boxers He faced, Marciano could bruise them and create large welts on there arms, shoulders, and stomach with one single shot. He could knock guys down with arm punches.

On top of that, he fought at a MIDDLEWEIGHT's pace, thus He would be able to stop Ali.

I read, i watch his videos... and thus i know he was the greatest, Cleveland williams was at his peak he beat LYLE CLEARLY and he beat norton twice... He never fought cooper in his prime, he fought cooper as the young, naieve CASSIUS clay.. he was at his prime in 1967... chuck wepner dropped him, he got back up and won did he not? you are referring to CASSIUS CLAY in most of your response. No boxer would ever beat a prime 1967 Ali 3/5 times, and majority of the sports writers and rankings by KNOWLEDGEABLE, reputable boxing experts agree.

yep, i was about to say the same thing!

Only one answer to this. YES :boxing:

I have recently read several books on some of Muhammad Ali's

fights and have discovered that he won alot of controversial

decisions over fighters like Ken Norton, Jimmy Young, Ernie

Shavers that could have easily gone in their favor. Ali rose

to occasion to beat great fighters like Foreman, Frazier, Liston.

But he wasn't always consistent, so was he the greatest

heavyweight of all time or was it the hype the he built up?

It was not hype man... :rolleyes:

Foreman lost his punch at 5 rounds. Since he didn't train for 12 rounders, He lost his strength and his punch usually at 5. According to all of the boxers He faced, Marciano could bruise them and create large welts on there arms, shoulders, and stomach with one single shot. He could knock guys down with arm punches.

On top of that, he fought at a MIDDLEWEIGHT's pace, thus He would be able to stop Ali.
No, a prime Ali fought at a welterweight pace. The Rock's punch wasn't the punch of a Foreman. Ali i feel would hve made Rocky carry his jock strap!

No, a prime Ali fought at a welterweight pace. The Rock's punch wasn't the punch of a Foreman. Ali i feel would hve made Rocky carry his jock strap!

actually, a prime ali had the speed of a lightweight!

actually, a prime ali had the speed of a lightweight!
Exactly!! So Rocky's middlweight pace wouldn't have been a big deal!

Exactly!! So Rocky's middlweight pace wouldn't have been a big deal!

i know, i was just pointing out the fact that ali is faster than some people think he is, 'cause they only remember him for fighting foreman and frazier and norton, after his prime.

It's difficult to say categorically but Muhammad Ali is definitely one of the contenders for number 1. Too many factors what with the differing eras and all to say for sure. He's number 1 in my book. I don't need to point out all his attributes but I will if anyone asks. This topic has been done to death(not that I mind)..

your crazy rocky M fans are really retarded, o rocky will just pin Ali up on the ropes and beat him. right just like rocky pinned joe walcott agaisnt the ropes and beat him? an old joe walcott and a prime joe walcott put together is still an inferior fighters to Ali, rocky would get beaten badly and wont even land more then 20 punchs on Ali, fools rocky M is overrated big big time

your crazy rocky M fans are really retarded, o rocky will just pin Ali up on the ropes and beat him. right just like rocky pinned joe walcott agaisnt the ropes and beat him? an old joe walcott and a prime joe walcott put together is still an inferior fighters to Ali, rocky would get beaten badly and wont even land more then 20 punchs on Ali, fools rocky M is overrated big big time

excellent post.

I think Ali would outclass Marciano in every way possible. Ali had superior boxing skills compared to Rocky, and his ruggedness, heart, and courage was just as good if not better.

I think Marciano would rough Ali up in the early rounds, but Ali would then settle down and start to hit Rocky with all sorts of combinations stopping him by the 9th round at the latest.

I think Ali would outclass Marciano in every way possible. Ali had superior boxing skills compared to Rocky, and his ruggedness, heart, and courage was just as good if not better.

I think Marciano would rough Ali up in the early rounds, but Ali would then settle down and start to hit Rocky with all sorts of combinations stopping him by the 9th round at the latest.

i don't even think that's possible. ali would dance the whole 15 or less rounds and make both his eyes gush out blood.

muhammad ali would kill anybody in tha ring naa mean? he is the greatest and he deserves that name

i don't even think that's possible. ali would dance the whole 15 or less rounds and make both his eyes gush out blood.
ok for the last time Marciano's power is better then foremans it was close but Marciano was stronger, second Foremans good punches in the rumble in the jungle lasted 4 rounds at most everything after that they wound down that much even Ali fans can admit. Some of those punches did hurt ali not to say they did alot of damage but there's no way he didn't feel them anyway you want to look at him, had foreman had that little extra power marciano had and the great amount of stamina Marciano had he would of won. There's no way no matter what kind of shape ali was in would he be able to take that kind of punishment for 12-15 rounds, and anybody that says he could of is denying marciano's strength
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ok for the last time Marciano's power is better then foremans it was close but Marciano was stronger, second Foremans good punches in the rumble in the jungle lasted 4 rounds at most everything after that they wound down that much even Ali fans can admit. Some of those punches did hurt ali not to say they did alot of damage but there's no way he didn't feel them anyway you want to look at him, had foreman had that little extra power marciano had and the great amount of stamina Marciano had he would of won. There's no way no matter what kind of shape ali was in would he be able to take that kind of punishment for 12-15 rounds, and anybody that says he could of is denying marciano's strength

I agree, but even if Foreman was stronger it was The Rocks heart that would give him the edge over foreman anyday

ok for the last time Marciano's power is better then foremans it was close but Marciano was stronger, second Foremans good punches in the rumble in the jungle lasted 4 rounds at most everything after that they wound down that much even Ali fans can admit. Some of those punches did hurt ali not to say they did alot of damage but there's no way he didn't feel them anyway you want to look at him, had foreman had that little extra power marciano had and the great amount of stamina Marciano had he would of won. There's no way no matter what kind of shape ali was in would he be able to take that kind of punishment for 12-15 rounds, and anybody that says he could of is denying marciano's strength
i dont think he would've one, if you saw the fight ali was winning every round and outshining him

no i think ali's arms would've went down if they kept getting hit like that but foreman didn't have the stamina, i'll tell u one thing though i had alot more respect for Ali's body and chin after that fight
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ive never seen ali dance constantly for 15 rounds, he didnt have that type of stamina

yea, i do think that if his arms started to go down, do you think he would've started dancing again? i mean the whole point was to show ppl that his foot work was eveything to him

i think around like the end when his arms were going down he would've danced but been too tired to keep it up thats why i say Foreman would've won, but Foreman never really had the stamina to go beyond 5
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I don't think he would have danced for 15 rounds maybe 8+ he may have danced 15 rounds against someone ***** but 8+ against someone good enougth

i really don't think anybody of that size and weight could've have danced for 15 rounds, and frankly the fact that he could do it for 8 is an accomplishment all in itself
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i really don't think anybody of that size and weight could've have danced for 15 rounds, and frankly the fact that he could do it for 8 is an accomplishment all in itself

You haven't seen many of Ali's early fights have you?

Yes but he was a big boy he was trained to carry his own weight get use to it ect…he could have danced

well even if he could have gone 15 rounds of dancing after a beating from foreman for like 10-12 rounds i don't think there'd be to much hop in his step
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Very true but it would be virtually impossible to 15 rounds dancing whilst getting hit wouldnt it…?

Very true but it would be virtually impossible to 15 rounds dancing whilst getting hit wouldnt it??
agreed
because of his footwork he usually didn't get to hard which is why he was up against the ropes against foreman to show he could take a hit which he did pretty well
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Yepo he sure did, he could so we all agreed on this subject…¿ i spose it's all settled now yeah!

what do u mean
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what do u mean


What do you mean, what do i mean read the other posts

ali is the greatest, everyone knows he's the greatest, and anyone who doesn't agree is just hating and deep down inside wants to be like him, or probably is ugly and can't get as many women as him or something like that!

http://www.popartuk.com/g/l/lgfl0321.jpg

Butterfly, because you seem very young and ignorant, I'll let your "Ali is the greatest because he said so" argument pass.

First let me make this very clear to anyone reading: I feel Ali was one of the greatest heavyweights of all-time. There is no denying this; however, it bothers me when uneducated kids come on here and say he was unbeatable and unstoppable, he would "dance circles around (insert all-time great)..."

Muhammed Ali, or Cassius Clay, was in trouble against Doug Jones in 1963, a fight for the right to face Champ Sonny Liston. Jones wobbled Ali in this fight, a couple of times.

Also, in the fight IMMEDIATELY preceeding Clay's beating of Liston, little Henry Cooper (183 lbs) dropped Ali in the 4th round. Ali was in queer street and his trainer, Angelo Dundee might have saved the future-champ from a stunning defeat by ripping his glove while in the corner, thus ensuring Clay enough time to recover. The fight was stopped on cuts on Cooper the next round.

Even after Ali's prime, he received gift decisions against Norton and Lyle, to name a couple. Ali always received a little extra from the judges because of his name.

He was supremely talented, but his skills were somewhat lacking. He held his hands too low (knowing he was a much better athlete than a lot of the plodders he fought in the 1960s) pulled back at punches, and also used illegal holding quite a bit in his later career.

Against someone of similar athletic skill, he would be in trouble. He always struggled against pressure, swarming-type fighters. This style gave him the most problems.

And as for handspeed, I can think of a few heavyweights with similar handspeed. Mike Tyson, for example, actually had quite comparable handspeed. What makes prime Tyson's handspeed more impressive though, is that he threw POWER punches so quickly...Ali's flicking jab and right were very fast; however, Tyson's right to the body, followed by an uppercut was more impressive...he sat on his punches and delivered them nearly as fast, if not as fast as Ali delievered his.

Ali is overrated because so many uneducated young fans think he was absolutely unbeatable and had no weaknesses...he did. He is a top three heavyweight of all time, in my opinion; perhaps #1, sometimes it is difficult to decide. However, I dont engage in mindless worship, I have the ability to watch his fights (and have seen damn near every one) and see strengths and weaknesses.

Just because some says they are the "greatest" often enough, doesnt mean that they are, without question, the Greatest.

Butterfly, because you seem very young and ignorant, I'll let your "Ali is the greatest because he said so" argument pass.

First let me make this very clear to anyone reading: I feel Ali was one of the greatest heavyweights of all-time. There is no denying this; however, it bothers me when uneducated kids come on here and say he was unbeatable and unstoppable, he would "dance circles around (insert all-time great)..."

Muhammed Ali, or Cassius Clay, was in trouble against Doug Jones in 1963, a fight for the right to face Champ Sonny Liston. Jones wobbled Ali in this fight, a couple of times.

Also, in the fight IMMEDIATELY preceeding Clay's beating of Liston, little Henry Cooper (183 lbs) dropped Ali in the 4th round. Ali was in queer street and his trainer, Angelo Dundee might have saved the future-champ from a stunning defeat by ripping his glove while in the corner, thus ensuring Clay enough time to recover. The fight was stopped on cuts on Cooper the next round.

Even after Ali's prime, he received gift decisions against Norton and Lyle, to name a couple. Ali always received a little extra from the judges because of his name.

He was supremely talented, but his skills were somewhat lacking. He held his hands too low (knowing he was a much better athlete than a lot of the plodders he fought in the 1960s) pulled back at punches, and also used illegal holding quite a bit in his later career.

Against someone of similar athletic skill, he would be in trouble. He always struggled against pressure, swarming-type fighters. This style gave him the most problems.

And as for handspeed, I can think of a few heavyweights with similar handspeed. Mike Tyson, for example, actually had quite comparable handspeed. What makes prime Tyson's handspeed more impressive though, is that he threw POWER punches so quickly...Ali's flicking jab and right were very fast; however, Tyson's right to the body, followed by an uppercut was more impressive...he sat on his punches and delivered them nearly as fast, if not as fast as Ali delievered his.

Ali is overrated because so many uneducated young fans think he was absolutely unbeatable and had no weaknesses...he did. He is a top three heavyweight of all time, in my opinion; perhaps #1, sometimes it is difficult to decide. However, I dont engage in mindless worship, I have the ability to watch his fights (and have seen damn near every one) and see strengths and weaknesses.

Just because some says they are the "greatest" often enough, doesnt mean that they are, without question, the Greatest.


Now that is what i call a damn longgggggg message

Butterfly, because you seem very young and ignorant, I'll let your "Ali is the greatest because he said so" argument pass.

First let me make this very clear to anyone reading: I feel Ali was one of the greatest heavyweights of all-time. There is no denying this; however, it bothers me when uneducated kids come on here and say he was unbeatable and unstoppable, he would "dance circles around (insert all-time great)..."

Muhammed Ali, or Cassius Clay, was in trouble against Doug Jones in 1963, a fight for the right to face Champ Sonny Liston. Jones wobbled Ali in this fight, a couple of times.

Also, in the fight IMMEDIATELY preceeding Clay's beating of Liston, little Henry Cooper (183 lbs) dropped Ali in the 4th round. Ali was in queer street and his trainer, Angelo Dundee might have saved the future-champ from a stunning defeat by ripping his glove while in the corner, thus ensuring Clay enough time to recover. The fight was stopped on cuts on Cooper the next round.

Even after Ali's prime, he received gift decisions against Norton and Lyle, to name a couple. Ali always received a little extra from the judges because of his name.

He was supremely talented, but his skills were somewhat lacking. He held his hands too low (knowing he was a much better athlete than a lot of the plodders he fought in the 1960s) pulled back at punches, and also used illegal holding quite a bit in his later career.

Against someone of similar athletic skill, he would be in trouble. He always struggled against pressure, swarming-type fighters. This style gave him the most problems.

And as for handspeed, I can think of a few heavyweights with similar handspeed. Mike Tyson, for example, actually had quite comparable handspeed. What makes prime Tyson's handspeed more impressive though, is that he threw POWER punches so quickly...Ali's flicking jab and right were very fast; however, Tyson's right to the body, followed by an uppercut was more impressive...he sat on his punches and delivered them nearly as fast, if not as fast as Ali delievered his.

Ali is overrated because so many uneducated young fans think he was absolutely unbeatable and had no weaknesses...he did. He is a top three heavyweight of all time, in my opinion; perhaps #1, sometimes it is difficult to decide. However, I dont engage in mindless worship, I have the ability to watch his fights (and have seen damn near every one) and see strengths and weaknesses.

Just because some says they are the "greatest" often enough, doesnt mean that they are, without question, the Greatest.

i'm young and ignorant? i'm smart enough to know that cooper never fought a prime ali. oh, yeah he did the second time in 1966 and got his ass kicked! i'm not saying any version of ali is invincible, just the 1967 one. he was too strong physically, too fast, and oh, yeah, TOO FAST. no body would come close to him in his prime. but all you people like to bring up cooper and banks fought him in his prime, when they didn't. or frazier fought ali the first time in his prime, when he didn't. and he was still able to clean out the hw division as an old man in the 70s when boxing had by far the best fighters, so what does that tell you? sure he had weaknesses, but in his prime it didn't matter, you couldn't hit him any! so think before you post something little boy!

i'm young and ignorant? i'm smart enough to know that cooper never fought a prime ali. oh, yeah he did the second time in 1966 and got his ass kicked! i'm not saying any version of ali is invincible, just the 1967 one. he was too strong physically, too fast, and oh, yeah, TOO FAST. no body would come close to him in his prime. but all you people like to bring up cooper and banks fought him in his prime, when they didn't. or frazier fought ali the first time in his prime, when he didn't. and he was still able to clean out the hw division as an old man in the 70s when boxing had by far the best fighters, so what does that tell you? sure he had weaknesses, but in his prime it didn't matter, you couldn't hit him any! so think before you post something little boy!

I still say Marciano could drop him, i relooked at the comp fight and all the statistics,but that aside do u think a prime holmes could go the distance with a prime ali maybe win?
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i mean i'd say he could go the distance but i don't know about winning ya know?
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Butterfly, because you seem very young and ignorant, I'll let your "Ali is the greatest because he said so" argument pass.

First let me make this very clear to anyone reading: I feel Ali was one of the greatest heavyweights of all-time. There is no denying this; however, it bothers me when uneducated kids come on here and say he was unbeatable and unstoppable, he would "dance circles around (insert all-time great)..."

Muhammed Ali, or Cassius Clay, was in trouble against Doug Jones in 1963, a fight for the right to face Champ Sonny Liston. Jones wobbled Ali in this fight, a couple of times.

Also, in the fight IMMEDIATELY preceeding Clay's beating of Liston, little Henry Cooper (183 lbs) dropped Ali in the 4th round. Ali was in queer street and his trainer, Angelo Dundee might have saved the future-champ from a stunning defeat by ripping his glove while in the corner, thus ensuring Clay enough time to recover. The fight was stopped on cuts on Cooper the next round.

Even after Ali's prime, he received gift decisions against Norton and Lyle, to name a couple. Ali always received a little extra from the judges because of his name.

He was supremely talented, but his skills were somewhat lacking. He held his hands too low (knowing he was a much better athlete than a lot of the plodders he fought in the 1960s) pulled back at punches, and also used illegal holding quite a bit in his later career.

Against someone of similar athletic skill, he would be in trouble. He always struggled against pressure, swarming-type fighters. This style gave him the most problems.

And as for handspeed, I can think of a few heavyweights with similar handspeed. Mike Tyson, for example, actually had quite comparable handspeed. What makes prime Tyson's handspeed more impressive though, is that he threw POWER punches so quickly...Ali's flicking jab and right were very fast; however, Tyson's right to the body, followed by an uppercut was more impressive...he sat on his punches and delivered them nearly as fast, if not as fast as Ali delievered his.

Ali is overrated because so many uneducated young fans think he was absolutely unbeatable and had no weaknesses...he did. He is a top three heavyweight of all time, in my opinion; perhaps #1, sometimes it is difficult to decide. However, I dont engage in mindless worship, I have the ability to watch his fights (and have seen damn near every one) and see strengths and weaknesses.

Just because some says they are the "greatest" often enough, doesnt mean that they are, without question, the Greatest.
i agree norton got robbed in that third ali fight, but that lyle fight shouldnt have gone any further the man couldnt even hold up his arms to protect his face

you said he would be in trouble if he fought somebody with similar athletic skill, but he never did fight that person did he, so we never no?

i think he is the greatest by far... his flamboyant behavior helped him too... he told everyone he is the greatest and proved it.. if a boxer fights and makes less noise that ali he wouldnt be considered the greatest.. he marketed himself that way thats why he's the greatest.. not to take anythng away from his fighting though.. he was a helluva fighter....

i think he is the greatest by far... his flamboyant behavior helped him too... he told everyone he is the greatest and proved it.. if a boxer fights and makes less noise that ali he wouldnt be considered the greatest.. he marketed himself that way thats why he's the greatest.. not to take anythng away from his fighting though.. he was a helluva fighter....
agreed to an extent i do believe ppl wouldn't think he was as great a fighter if he didn't market himself the way he did
he was a good fighter but because he marketed himself so well he came across as the best
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So, Butterfly...and I am addressing you because you are the one who is blindly worshipping Ali here...

When was Ali's prime...it was only a three month period in 1967? Because he fought two fights in '67.

No, on the contrary, Ali WAS in his prime when he fought Sonny Liston, and also the few fights preceding this. He was in his prime up until he was suspended. It is quite obvious you know very little about this subject. What you are able to do, and do well, is keep repeating Ali is the Greatest because he "could float like a butterfly" and was unhittable in his (two month) Prime.

You are just as bad as the Tyson nuthuggers who say his Prime was his fight against Michael Spinks...Tyson's prime was a bit longer than that, and Ali's was longer than his three month, two fight period in 1967.

So, Butterfly...and I am addressing you because you are the one who is blindly worshipping Ali here...

When was Ali's prime...it was only a three month period in 1967? Because he fought two fights in '67.

No, on the contrary, Ali WAS in his prime when he fought Sonny Liston, and also the few fights preceding this. He was in his prime up until he was suspended. It is quite obvious you know very little about this subject. What you are able to do, and do well, is keep repeating Ali is the Greatest because he "could float like a butterfly" and was unhittable in his (two month) Prime.

You are just as bad as the Tyson nuthuggers who say his Prime was his fight against Michael Spinks...Tyson's prime was a bit longer than that, and Ali's was longer than his three month, two fight period in 1967.

just because ali did good in '64 doesn't mean that was his prime. a prime is defined as the period of time where an athlete is in the best physical condition he can ever be in his entire life. he was better in '66 and '67 than in '64, so that would be his prime. don't forget it would last longer if he continued boxing after '67. in 1964 his weight was 210, and he had to struggle to keep that weight, but in 1967, he comfortably filled out at 212 3/4lbs. plus his punches were harder, and they were more accurate, you would notice this if you track his fights from '60 to '67. so '64 was good but in '67 he did better so 1967 is more ali's prime than 1964! :boxing:

"He was supremely talented, but his skills were somewhat lacking. He held his hands too low (knowing he was a much better athlete than a lot of the plodders he fought in the 1960s) pulled back at punches, and also used illegal holding quite a bit in his later career."

"And as for handspeed, I can think of a few heavyweights with similar handspeed. Mike Tyson, for example, actually had quite comparable handspeed. What makes prime Tyson's handspeed more impressive though, is that he threw POWER punches so quickly...Ali's flicking jab and right were very fast; however, Tyson's right to the body, followed by an uppercut was more impressive...he sat on his punches and delivered them nearly as fast, if not as fast as Ali delievered his."

I don't agree with these two points. First let me say though, that the guy who said Lennox could beat Ali is an idiot. Moving on...

I don't think you can knock Ali for intentionally dropping his hands low. That's not a technical flaw. It in fact shows greater technical skill to draw your opponents attack in, so you counter almost immediately.

About Tyson's punching power. One of the factors (and an extremely important one) is timing. Tyson hit you hard and just tried to punch through anybody's defense, whereas Ali hit you when you weren't expecting it. Ali's timing is superior to Tyson's in my opinion. So while it matters how hard you close your fist, how fast you move, how strong you are etc. It can all be checkmated, so to speak, by a well timed less intese punch. Sometimes it's not how fast it moves, but how soon it gets there.

I'm not bashing Tyson or anything becase he without a doubt is one of the fastest, hardest and most effective punchers, but I don't think that Tyson's skills can be compared to Ali's.

Joe Louis was a far better heavyweight than Ali in my opinion and I rank ali in my top 3.

I'm from Louisville and I'm not even the greatest Greatest fan. I wouldn't go so far as to say he's the #1 heavyweight, but he would rank higher than Louis. Ever heard of 'the bum of the month club.' Louis really had no one to fight except Schmeling and some old washed up fighters from the previous era. Ali did have Frasier and Foreman both of whom would have never lost a fight except against Ali and in Frasier's case against the other above mentioned.

louis fought whoever the #1 contender was or whoever they put in front of him, joe louis is number #1 ali is #2

I have recently read several books on some of Muhammad Ali's

fights and have discovered that he won alot of controversial

decisions over fighters like Ken Norton, Jimmy Young, Ernie

Shavers that could have easily gone in their favor. Ali rose

to occasion to beat great fighters like Foreman, Frazier, Liston.

But he wasn't always consistent, so was he the greatest

heavyweight of all time or was it the hype the he built up?

My opinion: Even as an Ali fan in my teens (I began really following Boxing at age 10, just before the 1st Ali-Frazier fight), I never believed him to be THE greatest.

He was a personality of world-wide fame. To the 60s radicals and media, he was a symbol of the Anti-War movement. To American Blacks, he was a source of pride--the baddest man on the planet. There is not(and there may never be) an Athlete more world-reknowned (sorry, Babe Ruth fans--they know nothing of Baseball in Africa).

But all of this does not make him the greatest fighter of all time. He is not even the greatest heavyweight. And, yes, he got more than a few gift decisions: Jimmy Young beat him by 10-5 on my ALI FAN scorecard at the time. Norton beat him in their 3rd fight. And, during the 2nd round of his fight with Shavers, I left the room for a moment rather than see Ali KOd. Shavers won that fight, too. The officials thought otherwise. Also, in the 2nd Frazier fight, someone counted over 180 Ali-instigated clinches...one every 12 seconds!!

Also, the myth of Ali's popularity takes a hit when you examine the FINANCIAL DETAILS of some of his fights when it was HE who was the indisputable "attraction." His fights with Mathis, Mac Foster, Blue Lewis, Brian London were all huge financial flops.

I am not saying Ali was not a great fighter. He was. His blend of size and speed had never been seen before. He was a great athlete. Perhaps what made him as good as he was was his EGO and PRIDE. He talked himself up so much, he had to make good on it. THIS is what I think is as responsible as anything else for his remarkable ability to absorb punishment.

But look at his first reign. Liston, like it or not, was even on the scorecards in Miami when he quit in his corner; a pre-"No mas" no mas. He took a dive in Lewiston. Patterson, outweighed, crippled by a disk in his back and 30 years old, was finished as a first-rate fighter after the 2nd Johansson fight 5 years before. Chuvalo absorbed everything for 15 rounds and gave a clue on how to beat Ali by crowding him and banging him in the body. Cooper was a stiff, KOd (cleanly) by Johannson and Folley before and Patterson after. London was even worse, a one-time one round KO victim of Cooper. Mildenberger was nothing but a novelty built up by Ring Magazine (another Schmeling?HA!! He wasn't even another Adolph Heuser!). Cleveland Williams was a shadow of a shadow of a fighter who ALWAYS had trouble with boxers (Billy Daniels and Ernie Terrell both went the distance, Terrell winning their 2nd fight, in William's supposed "prime", which was gone probably even before Williams was shot by that cop). Terrell was later exposed as a fighter with......great height and reach, later beaten by hearty-partyer Thad Spencer and the mighty Mexican, Manuel Ramos. Zora Folley was 34, outweighed, and had been KO'd previously by the likes of Young Jack Johnson and Doug Jones (not to mention Sonny Liston), and beaten by Henry Cooper on a decision.

Ali was a greater fighter during his 2nd reign...during the first year of it. He was finished after the 3rd Frazier fight.

As a world-wide famous figure, Ali is unmatched. You can argue that he was a cultural icon. As I get older and read more about his anti-american and anti-white feelings during his "exile", he looks more and more like just a pawn in the hands of Elijah and Herbert Muhammad. And less and less like "The Greatest". As a matter of fact, I think that Larry Holmes, in his prime, beats Ali at his best ever.

Great post! Welcome to the forum.

Great post! Welcome to the forum.

your ahving a laugh if u think holmes beats a prime ali
and yes he was the greatest heavyweight ever

I think that Larry Holmes, in his prime, beats Ali at his best ever.

yeah, sure. marciano beats louis at his best. spinks beats holmes at his best. tunney beats dempsey at his best. young beats foreman at his best. williams beats tyson at his best. :rolleyes:

So just because Holmes beat Ali when he was old that means he would have no chance of beating a prime Ali? That's a terrible argument.

So just because Holmes beat Ali when he was old that means he would have no chance of beating a prime Ali? That's a terrible argument.

but that doesn't mean he would beat prime ali.

The greatest technical fighter by a long shot. Not much power, but the few skills he possessed in combination, like the jab and foot movement, were heads above the other guys and adequate to bring down better skill guys. He was probably the fastest guy for his size, phenomenal endurance at his weight, and the one thing most big guys lack, he had the greatest heart of any heavyweight, including Holyfield. The shots he took from Foreman would have killed most people.

The greatest technical fighter by a long shot. Not much power, but the few skills he possessed in combination, like the jab and foot movement, were heads above the other guys and adequate to bring down better skill guys. He was probably the fastest guy for his size, phenomenal endurance at his weight, and the one thing most big guys lack, he had the greatest heart of any heavyweight, including Holyfield. The shots he took from Foreman would have killed most people.

of course ali was far from technical. his style was specifically meant to confuse technical fighters with his awkwardly fast style of going side to side, moving the upper part of his body constantly.

I personally believe that he was greatly overhyped. I take nothing away from him but he didnt impress me as much as people said he would.

I do however love Ali as a boxing persona, I liked all the **** talking and how he conducted himself out of the ring. He seemed like a funny ass guy.

I also like that he spoke up for his beliefs and never backed down. It take a lot of guts, especially in that era, when **** was all that great.

I personally believe that he was greatly overhyped. I take nothing away from him but he didnt impress me as much as people said he would.

I do however love Ali as a boxing persona, I liked all the **** talking and how he conducted himself out of the ring. He seemed like a funny ass guy.

I also like that he spoke up for his beliefs and never backed down. It take a lot of guts, especially in that era, when **** was all that great.

ali wasn't great? man you need to watch some of his fights.

Easily the greatest heavyweight of all time, he had the toughest opposition.

If Ali wasn't there in the 60's, Liston would of ruled the division.
If Ali wasn't there in the 70's, George Foreman would of ruled the division.
Ali fought everyone, beat everyone by way of rematch (except at the end of his career)and had a heart of a lion.
Never got knocked out in his whole career.

The thing that makes it IMPOSSIBLE to rate Dempsey is the absence of any fighters other than Caucasions on his resume'.

Thats some racist ****.

Thats some racist ****.

Hey Derranged.

That cow in your signature needs to be tranquilized and re-located.

Hey Derranged.

That cow in your signature needs to be tranquilized and re-located.

haha, lol! :D

Is this sig more to your liking Run with Knives? :rolleyes:

ali wasn't great? man you need to watch some of his fights.

Thats right he AINT the greatest. I have seen his fights and he doesnt impress me.

Just cuz he was in the spot light ALL the time doesnt make him the greatest.

Like i said i take nothing away from him, but alot of people just know the name ALi and just think he is the greatest and have never even seen him fight.

Look i aint saying that he was a good to great fighter, but to label him as thee Greatest is a stretch. :cool:

in my opinion tyson is da best heavyweight of all time..hes jus old now n so wut if he lost his last 2 fights so did ali

in my opinion tyson is da best heavyweight of all time..hes jus old now n so wut if he lost his last 2 fights so did ali

The difference is Ali lost his last few fights after having a great career and beat many big names. Tyson's career was over when he was 23 and he did not beat many significant fighters.

Dumbest thing I've heard...

If you think Louis still being a top contender is the dumbest thing you've heard then you might want to take that opinion up with Ring Magazine or observe their ratings from just before the Marciano/Louis fight (Aug of '51);

Champ: Jersey Joe Walcott
1: Ezzard Charles
2: JOE LOUIS
3: Rocky Marciano
4: Clarence Henry
5: Roland LaStarza
6: Bob Baker
7: Rex Layne
8: Cesar Brion
9: Lee Savold
10: Hein Neuhaus

What the other guy said was 100% true as evident there!

Ali was my favorite heavyweight of all times, but the distinction for being the greatest, goes to one Joseph Louis Barrow.

Ali was great in that he was well known and admired in and out of the ring... but sadly imma have to go with Joe Louis...

I have recently read several books on some of Muhammad Ali's

fights and have discovered that he won alot of controversial

decisions over fighters like Ken Norton, Jimmy Young, Ernie

Shavers that could have easily gone in their favor. Ali rose

to occasion to beat great fighters like Foreman, Frazier, Liston.

But he wasn't always consistent, so was he the greatest

heavyweight of all time or was it the hype the he built up?
I remember watching some of those fights, and I always thought he was overrated. The media liked him and made him out to be larger than life, and his personality had more to do with his fame than his ability in the ring. He was a symbol of the 60's, and fit in well with that generation, being rebellious against the establishment and all that. But as a boxer, he was far from being the greatest of all time.

Both Norton and Frazier are credited with defeating him in his prime (age 29 and 31) but one of his other two fights with Norton was really another loss, but became a gift SD for him. The second fight with Frazier could have gone either way. He was so popular with the boxing establishment that any close fight would be judged in his favor.

in my opinion tyson is da best heavyweight of all time..hes jus old now n so wut if he lost his last 2 fights so did ali

i used to think the same thing...but noway ..ali was the greatest by far he had parkinsons and was still beating guys whitch is crazy.. parkinsons slows your motor reflexes .. he may have been ifhgtin with parkinson for over 5 years

Joe Louis, Jack Johnson, Rocky Marciano, and Jack Dempsey are all better then Ali. Ali is overrated. He's not a bad boxer but he is not on the same level as the other guys I mentioned, those fighters would have killed him in the ring, instead of giving him brain damage like the fighters in his generation. Theres plenty more boxers, I'd list before ali.

Ali and Louis are definitely 1-2. I rank Ali slightly higher because he beat the best set of opponents of any fighter, ever. And don't forget, Ali lost over 3 years of his prime. Imagine what we'd be saying about him if politics didn't rob the sport he loved from a full, uninterupted career. For speed, ring savy, chin and heart Ali had no match.

That's just my opinion, but I'm right. :D

i agree...3 years, and also his best years is something we will always regret :(

btw, for me ali is the greatest heavywight, but i dont know if he was the best.
but definitively on the top 3....without a doubt. i dont know but i think that a prime ali vs a prime lois, marciano, tyson, butterbean, etc.... he should win. well, thats what i think.

I have recently read several books on some of Muhammad Ali's

fights and have discovered that he won alot of controversial

decisions over fighters like Ken Norton, Jimmy Young, Ernie

Shavers that could have easily gone in their favor. Ali rose

to occasion to beat great fighters like Foreman, Frazier, Liston.

But he wasn't always consistent, so was he the greatest

heavyweight of all time or was it the hype the he built up?

I dont think he was as good Louis!!! IMO it was mostly hype!!!

Joe Louis is the best heavyweight of all time then Ali, I've always rated Joe above Ali and will continue to do so

ali would of beat joe louis

Hey, It's good to see that one of my old threads was bumped up; I created this thread in 2004!...:fing02: :biggthump

Ali would box his ears off
Louis never fought a skilled big man most of the giants he fought were brawlers with little to offer other then size and power.

What would Louis do when he can't catch Ali and is being tagged with jabs and powerful over hand rights, round after round ?

Louis is known for having good speed, good boxing skills, a good chin, and great power.

Ali had all of this other then great power but was better in each other category cept for maybe tech boxing skill.

As far as power Ali was no Joe Louis but most of his fights were in fact knock outs , thing is he was so into winning the fight in the round he called he would carry some fights too long and it made it seem that he had little power .

Also if Ali was fighting with the smaller gloves of Joe Louis's era he may have been more of a puncher .

Everyone who said Tyson should be killed with a hammer

Ali the Greatest ever no doubt, most of you agree though

Everyone who said Tyson should be killed with a hammer

Ali the Greatest ever no doubt, most of you agree though

Tyson is in my top 10 but there is no way he is the best ever .
During his prime i think he would have gave anyone ANYONE a hell of a challenge and maybe won 1 out of 3 with the likes of Ali but with his short prime years and lack of other great prime opponents, he left to much unknown.

ali would of beat joe louisYes, but only if he could. ;)

Hey, It's good to see that one of my old threads was bumped up; I created this thread in 2004!...:fing02: :biggthump


Interesting!

As for Clay-Ali being the "greatest" - yeah, he was the greatest - the greatest black muslim-us media hype job, that is!




ww

Its always been clear in my eyes. Ali is the best heavyweight ever. Louis dominated a weaker era. Ali beat some of the best heavyweights ever. There was nothing contraversial about the first Liston fight or the Foreman fight, or the second and third Fraizer fights. All three of those heavyweights are in most peoples top 10. And that doesnt even factor in the other good fighters that he beat. Its no contest imo.

"There was nothing contraversial about the first Liston fight or the Foreman fight..."



Surely you jest!




ww

Its always been clear in my eyes. Ali is the best heavyweight ever. Louis dominated a weaker era. Ali beat some of the best heavyweights ever. There was nothing contraversial about the first Liston fight or the Foreman fight, or the second and third Fraizer fights. All three of those heavyweights are in most peoples top 10. And that doesnt even factor in the other good fighters that he beat. Its no contest imo.

I could be wrong here but didn't Louis beat more hall of famers and more former champions then any other heavyweight ?
Ali's still better .

I could be wrong here but didn't Louis beat more hall of famers and more former champions then any other heavyweight ?
Ali's still better .That may be true, but in my view, the most impressive stat attributed to Louis is the 25 consecutive succesful defenses of his title, which accounted for the longest reign of a heavyweight champion.

During Ali's prime, I too got caught-up in the idea of him being "The Greatest", but as I've grown older, my objectivity has blossomed and today I rate "The Brown Bomber" #1, based solely on his accomplishment(s) inside the ring.

Don't get me wrong, in many respects - not the least of which is his stature as a sports icon - Muhammad Ali is and always will be The Greatest. Just not as a fighter.

That may be true, but in my view, the most impressive stat attributed to Louis is the 25 consecutive succesful defenses of his title, which accounted for the longest reign of a heavyweight champion.

I agree. That was 25 successful unanimous title defenses by Lewis, not 25 alphabet title defenses like from the early 1960's on, since there was only one universal sanctioning organization then. Joe Louis never lost a fight in his prime, between ages 24 and 35 inclusive. Muhammed Ali officially lost 2 to Frazier and Norton, at ages 29 and 31 (and perhaps should have lost another 2 or 3 close decisions that were given to him).

...Joe Louis never lost a fight in his prime, between ages 24 and 35 inclusive. Muhammed Ali officially lost 2 to Frazier and Norton, at ages 29 and 31 (and perhaps should have lost another 2 or 3 close decisions that were given to him).During Louis' active reign and domination, they coined the frase "bum of the month club" in reference to his efficient disposition of all opponents matched against him. It reminds me of a movie executive taking auditions and dismissing those who fail to qualify by hollerin' "next."

In fairness to, and in defense of Ali, it could be argued that he was robbed of his prime by his three-year unjust layoff.

In fairness to, and in defense of Ali, it could be argued that he was robbed of his prime by his three-year unjust layoff.
True, but Joe Louis at his peak had to go over to Europe to fight in WW 2. They say after that layoff, Joe was never quite as sharp as before, but he still won all his title fights for the next four years after he returned!

This looks to be an old thread at this stage, but for me Ali was The Greatest!

Muhammad Ali (http://www.squidoo.com/Muhammad_Ali)

he was very good, definitely in the top 5 heavies of all time, but i think joe louis and rocky marciano were better