Lets just put this to rest...please!!!

Muhammad Ali would make Tyson quit on his stool the same as he did Liston. Ali didn't limit his skills to the ring. He beat as many opponents with his mind as he did with his fighting ability. Tyson being the most unstable fighter since Liston would be an easy target. Even a prime Tyson had his breakdowns. Ever see the video of a young Tyson crying on Teddy Atlas' shoulder? Anyway, Ali's psychological warfare would have beat Tyson before he ever got in the ring, and if by some chance Tyson didn't get disqualified by biting or hitting after the bell, Ali's superior skill would do the rest.

Just my thoughts anyway...

Ali psychological warfare could possibly do Tyson in, but once Tyson was in the ring he often could over come this (unless he got frustrated, and his corner was garbage) but with a good trainer/corner man I don't think Tyson would be completely destroyed by Ali's words, if anything he'd just get angry (ex. Holmes trying to play with him)

Ali always had a game plan if he came to fight (aside from underestimating his opponents, such as Spinks) If Ali came to fight Tyson like he fought Frazier the first time, he would lose hands down. If Ali fights Tyson like Holyfield - grabbing and unloading combinations, he wins by UD.

I know many people on this forum hate Mike Tyson, but he did KO fighters that had never been knocked out before, this is probably where some of his fame comes from.

First off, I would like to point out that we probably never got to see either of these fighters in their absolute primes, with Muhammad Ali being forced out of boxing at the age of 25, and Mike Tyson being sentenced to jail at the same age. We did get to see two of the most entertaining heavyweights of all time how ever, and at their best I would rate them both as great fighters. Tyson was only great for a very short period of time how ever, and was not more than mediocre plus after his return in 1995.

I believe that the best version we saw of Ali (1966-1967) would beat the best version we saw of Tyson (1987-1988).

Tyson would probably give him trouble early on with his tremendous speed though. Ali would not be able to outrun the young Tyson and would be forced to the ropes. There Tyson could deliver his almost super-human fast combinations, with his left hook giving Ali hell. We know Ali was vulnerable to the left hook and never really learned how to defend himself against fighters who could deliver them well (Cooper, Frazier). Tyson had a left hook that almost parallelled that of Joe Frazier, but delivered with greater speed and more power. I would not be surprised to find Ali on the canvas, maybe even badly shaken up during the first 2-3 rounds against Tyson.

Ali had marvelous recuperative abilities how ever, not to mention his heart, chin and general pride. I do not, under any circumstances, see Mike Tyson being able to knock Ali out. He would surely find a way to survive this early onslaught to come back with a vengence as Tyson started to slow down and lose his initial explosiveness.

The younger Ali had no problems staying on his toes throughout a fight and would dance circles around a fading Tyson, blitzing him with lightening fast combinations every now and then. If Tyson had him cornered, he would tie him up and counter him (even the young Tyson was fairly easy to tie up, and was like a fish on land once caught in a clinch). Ali was stronger than Tyson (I'm talking strenght, not punching power) and would handle him much like Evander Holyfield did.

Tyson takes the first couple of rounds, Ali the rest of the fight to win by wide decision or late stoppage.

W Muhammad Ali

Lets just put this to rest...please!!!

Muhammad Ali would make Tyson quit on his stool the same as he did Liston. Ali didn't limit his skills to the ring. He beat as many opponents with his mind as he did with his fighting ability. Tyson being the most unstable fighter since Liston would be an easy target. Even a prime Tyson had his breakdowns. Ever see the video of a young Tyson crying on Teddy Atlas' shoulder? Anyway, Ali's psychological warfare would have beat Tyson before he ever got in the ring, and if by some chance Tyson didn't get disqualified by biting or hitting after the bell, Ali's superior skill would do the rest.

Just my thoughts anyway...

Good points!

Poet

Ali would win this fight, ali has the speed, power and the will of steel. this is a thing that tyson doesn't have which is speed, ali will throws his jab and opens up for a hook or single uppercut. not just tyson will lose but tyson will lose KO.

nice matchup man

First off, I would like to point out that we probably never got to see either of these fighters in their absolute primes, with Muhammad Ali being forced out of boxing at the age of 25, and Mike Tyson being sentenced to jail at the same age. We did get to see two of the most entertaining heavyweights of all time how ever, and at their best I would rate them both as great fighters. Tyson was only great for a very short period of time how ever, and was not more than mediocre plus after his return in 1995.

I believe that the best version we saw of Ali (1966-1967) would beat the best version we saw of Tyson (1987-1988).

Tyson would probably give him trouble early on with his tremendous speed though. Ali would not be able to outrun the young Tyson and would be forced to the ropes. There Tyson could deliver his almost super-human fast combinations, with his left hook giving Ali hell. We know Ali was vulnerable to the left hook and never really learned how to defend himself against fighters who could deliver them well (Cooper, Frazier). Tyson had a left hook that almost parallelled that of Joe Frazier, but delivered with greater speed and more power. I would not be surprised to find Ali on the canvas, maybe even badly shaken up during the first 2-3 rounds against Tyson.

Ali had marvelous recuperative abilities how ever, not to mention his heart, chin and general pride. I do not, under any circumstances, see Mike Tyson being able to knock Ali out. He would surely find a way to survive this early onslaught to come back with a vengence as Tyson started to slow down and lose his initial explosiveness.

The younger Ali had no problems staying on his toes throughout a fight and would dance circles around a fading Tyson, blitzing him with lightening fast combinations every now and then. If Tyson had him cornered, he would tie him up and counter him (even the young Tyson was fairly easy to tie up, and was like a fish on land once caught in a clinch). Ali was stronger than Tyson (I'm talking strenght, not punching power) and would handle him much like Evander Holyfield did.

Tyson takes the first couple of rounds, Ali the rest of the fight to win by wide decision or late stoppage.

W Muhammad Ali

don't get me wrong, Ali surpasses Tyson in terms of achievements, but I could see Ali coming in trying to hold Tyson off with a jab. Ali did the same thing to Frazier and lost the first time. Many fighters watched Tysons fight tapes and thought they could keep Tyson at bay with a jab (Holmes, Spinks).
Tyson was extremely adept at avoiding the jab, he even timed it so they ran into his punches.

Ali would have to change his gameplan because if he fought Tyson like he fought Frazier, he WOULD lose - I have no doubt in my mind.

I'm not trying to downgrade Ali, and I don't think Tyson is unbeatable (anyone who is strong could probably give Tyson a tussle if they fought him like Holyfield did, because Tyson was so small) But this is the one heavyweight match up that I think Ali would lose, even by KO. (Tyson Koed guys that had never been Koed before). I can't think of any back pedalling fighter that stood a chance vs Tyson.

I don't think Ali was stronger than Tyson, he weighed 210 in his Prime. Tyson could hold his own against 240 lb men often enough, and he only weighed 217.

I agree completely, Ali's psychological warfare would take Tyson down.

Ali would slow down Mike Tyson down the stretch to score a UD.

don't get me wrong, Ali surpasses Tyson in terms of achievements, but I could see Ali coming in trying to hold Tyson off with a jab. Ali did the same thing to Frazier and lost the first time. Many fighters watched Tysons fight tapes and thought they could keep Tyson at bay with a jab (Holmes, Spinks).
Tyson was extremely adept at avoiding the jab, he even timed it so they ran into his punches.

Ali would have to change his gameplan because if he fought Tyson like he fought Frazier, he WOULD lose - I have no doubt in my mind.

I'm not trying to downgrade Ali, and I don't think Tyson is unbeatable (anyone who is strong could probably give Tyson a tussle if they fought him like Holyfield did, because Tyson was so small) But this is the one heavyweight match up that I think Ali would lose, even by KO. (Tyson Koed guys that had never been Koed before). I can't think of any back pedalling fighter that stood a chance vs Tyson.

I don't think Ali was stronger than Tyson, he weighed 210 in his Prime. Tyson could hold his own against 240 lb men often enough, and he only weighed 217.

Well I don't know about knocking him down in the first three rounds. Old man Holmes lasted nearly 5 rounds with prime Tyson without getting seriously hurt or knocked out (and after the 5th round is when Tyson begins to wear thin). Prime Ali would be a young Ali, which would be faster than a young Holmes (who Tyson was not facing). Plus Ali was more of a hit and holder than Holmes was and he would definately use that strategy here. Tyson was very quick in his prime but if they were fighting in the same era Ali would know this from the tapes, he would know what he could and couldn't get away with . Knowing what he could get away with, Tyson would have to out think him, and i don't see that happening. One often underestimated factor in a showdown like this is the Ali feint. Tyson would be REALLY vulnerable to it. Tyson is a fighter that puts all of his body into all of his movements, consequently if he falls victim to Ali's ingenious feinting skills it will be easy for the swifter Ali to capitalize. That's going to be the danger in Tyson trying to use a Counterpunch game.

Ali would win by stoppage and i won't go too deep into this. Its just obvious, everything favor's him. I will say one thing though, it would be the most beautiful beating that anyone could ever imagine about.

ver one here sayin tyson is slow are slow in the brain no one could stop a prime mike tyson no one now all u haterz start hating

Well I don't know about knocking him down in the first three rounds. Old man Holmes lasted nearly 5 rounds with prime Tyson without getting seriously hurt or knocked out (and after the 5th round is when Tyson begins to wear thin). Prime Ali would be a young Ali, which would be faster than a young Holmes (who Tyson was not facing). Plus Ali was more of a hit and holder than Holmes was and he would definately use that strategy here. Tyson was very quick in his prime but if they were fighting in the same era Ali would know this from the tapes, he would know what he could and couldn't get away with . Knowing what he could get away with, Tyson would have to out think him, and i don't see that happening. One often underestimated factor in a showdown like this is the Ali feint. Tyson would be REALLY vulnerable to it. Tyson is a fighter that puts all of his body into all of his movements, consequently if he falls victim to Ali's ingenious feinting skills it will be easy for the swifter Ali to capitalize. That's going to be the danger in Tyson trying to use a Counterpunch game.

Ali got Tagged by Jones and Frazier, both of Whome Tyson is superior to in every aspect (IMO)

and Holmes didn't almost last 5 rounds, he lasted just to the 4th and got knocked unconscious for the first and only time in his career. ali like to show boat when he was younger, and he would get tagged doing that with Tyson, who was almost as quick.

Look at it this way, If Frazier can beat Ali, Tyson can..quit being delusional because Ali is the self proclaimed greatest. How the hell would he know he was the greatest if more people would come after him?

Ali got Tagged by Jones and Frazier, both of Whome Tyson is superior to in every aspect (IMO)

and Holmes didn't almost last 5 rounds, he lasted just to the 4th and got knocked unconscious for the first and only time in his career. ali like to show boat when he was younger, and he would get tagged doing that with Tyson, who was almost as quick.

Look at it this way, If Frazier can beat Ali, Tyson can..quit being delusional because Ali is the self proclaimed greatest. How the hell would he know he was the greatest if more people would come after him?



If Frazier can beat Ali Tyson can? First of all, that isn't true. Second, Frazier didn't even fight prime Ali but lets talk about the Ali that he did fight. Mike Tyson is not superior to Frazier in one critical way...endurance; and that is what he would need to beat Ali. If you think Tyson has Frazier's endurance your delusional. Frazier was also a better infighter than Tyson. Tyson did not really dig down and fight on the inside, he set up from the outside and then moved inside with preset combinations, after which, more often then not, he just stopped and waited for a separation. Frazier continued to dig punches on the inside, on the ropes, or where ever he was, and he went at it all night. Tyson does not have anywhere near that kind of work ethic. Tyson is also much more off balance when he completely misses a shot than Frazier was, because he sends his whole body into the shot. That is just a recipe for disaster when going up against a master feinter like Ali.

If Frazier can beat Ali Tyson can? First of all, that isn't true. Second, Frazier didn't even fight prime Ali but lets talk about the Ali that he did fight. Mike Tyson is not superior to Frazier in one critical way...endurance; and that is what he would need to beat Ali. If you think Tyson has Frazier's endurance your delusional. Frazier was also a better infighter than Tyson. Tyson did not really dig down and fight on the inside, he set up from the outside and then moved inside with preset combinations, after which, more often then not, he just stopped and waited for a separation. Frazier continued to dig punches on the inside, on the ropes, or where ever he was, and he went at it all night. Tyson does not have anywhere near that kind of work ethic. Tyson is also much more off balance when he completely misses a shot than Frazier was, because he sends his whole body into the shot. That is just a recipe for disaster when going up against a master feinter like Ali.

Nice post, I stopped reading his after he claimed Tyson was superior to Frazier in every single way. I guess heart and endurance count for squat in this sport. I love how a 23 year old Tyson gets a pass for being "past prime" in his fight with Douglas, but a 29 year old Ali fresh off more than a 3 1/2 year suspension gets crap for a decision loss that he avenged twice. 66 or 67 Ali would get inside Tyson's head and Mike would go crazy trying to kill him.

Ali is mostly remembered for the fights he won after his suspension. People forget how great he was before and how much better his career, spectacular as it was, would've been without more than 3 1/2 years of his prime ripped out of it.

Nice post, I stopped reading his after he claimed Tyson was superior to Frazier in every single way. I guess heart and endurance count for squat in this sport. I love how a 23 year old Tyson gets a pass for being "past prime" in his fight with Douglas, but a 29 year old Ali fresh off more than a 3 1/2 year suspension gets crap for a decision loss that he avenged twice. 66 or 67 Ali would get inside Tyson's head and Mike would go crazy trying to kill him.

23 year old Tyson never get's a pass for out of his Prime. He get's a pass for being lazy and underestimating his opponents. I'm not arguing that Tyson has achieved all that, his resume is just average and his only claim to fame is being the youngest heavy weight champ. I am claiming that he could deck Ali though, YES Frazier had better endurance than him, and more heart. But Tyson has more power, more speed, more aggression, better footwork and a better chin.

you people automatically write anyone off when it comes to fighting Ali. It's not like Ali never lost, he put up many mediocre performances also. for ****s sake Tyson never would have lost to Leon Spinks, just as Ali never would have lost to Buster Douglas.

could you stop being a clown and saying things like "I stopped reading after he said Tyson was superior to Frazier in every way" I read you're posts even if disagree with them. you people are delusional though when it comes to Ali. Don't go telling me I'm a Tyson nuthugger ether, I'm willing to cough up a list of fighter's that would beat Tyson.

23 year old Tyson never get's a pass for out of his Prime. He get's a pass for being lazy and underestimating his opponents. I'm not arguing that Tyson has achieved all that, his resume is just average and his only claim to fame is being the youngest heavy weight champ. I am claiming that he could deck Ali though, YES Frazier had better endurance than him, and more heart. But Tyson has more power, more speed, more aggression, better footwork and a better chin.

you people automatically write anyone off when it comes ot fighting Ali. It's not like Ali never lost, he put up many mediocre performances also. for ****s sake Tyson never would have lost to Leon Spinks, just as Ali never would have lost to Buster Douglas.

Leon Spinks? You really want to go there? A 36 year old Ali with Parkinsons setting in and he still comes back avenges the SD loss. At least Spinks was a gold medal winner. I guess you can compare that to a 23 year old at the peak of his skills getting KO'd by a journeyman.:spankme:

Leon Spinks? You really want to go there? A 36 year old Ali with Parkinsons setting in and he still comes back avenges the SD loss. I guess you can compare that to a 23 year old at the peak of his skills.:spankme:


Tyson wasn't at the peak of his skills, maybe physically but not mentally. you know this to, I don't even know why you posted that.

Douglas would have kicked Spinks ass to, he dwarfed him in size and had a semi decent record.

YES Frazier had better endurance than him, and more heart. But Tyson has more power, more speed, more aggression, better footwork and a better chin.


Are you claiming that Tyson would knock Ali out in some early round then?

Are you claiming that Tyson would knock Ali out in some early round then?


what made you think that? I say round 10. Tyson Koed guys that were presumably thought to be un KO able.

what made you think that? I say round 10. Tyson Koed guys that were presumably thought to be un KO able.

Come on, this is why I brought up endurance. How many people has Tyson knocked out in the 10th round? He would be worn out by that time, especially after chasing Ali around all night and taking punishment from him. Plus, the further on the fight gets, the sloppier Tyson ALWAYS becomes, and that won't work against a master boxer. As the fight goes on Tyson doen't have more of a chance to knock Ali out, he has less, and by the tenth round it would be nearly impossible.

Remember your Frazier thought experiment? Well allow me to offer one. If James "Quick" Tillis could go the distance with Tyson, so could Muhammed Ali.

Come on, this is why I brought up endurance. How many people has Tyson knocked out in the 10th round? He would be worn out by that time, especially after chasing Ali around all night and taking punishment from him. Plus, the further on the fight gets, the sloppier Tyson ALWAYS becomes, and that won't work against a master boxer. As the fight goes on Tyson doen't have more of a chance to knock Ali out, he has less, and by the tenth round it would be nearly impossible.

Remember your Frazier thought experiment? Well allow me to offer one. If James "Quick" Tillis could go the distance with Tyson, so could Muhammed Ali.

Hey Res! The thing you have to remember about rotton_apples is he swings off Tyson's nut-sack. He's also one of the premier Ali haters on this forum. Did he really say Tyson was superior to Frazier in everyway? He must be smoking crack again. Put a prime Frazier in with a prime Tyson and my money's on Frazier. He must be one of new-age fight fans who think Frazier's punching power is overrated.....probably because they haven't taken a Frazier left hook to the ribs. You're dead on with the endurance BTW: Tyson gasses out around round 6 while Frazier would still be winging bombs in the 15th. Take a peek at BoxingRec and you'll get a good idea of what kind of late-round KO percentage Michael Gerard actually had :boxing:

Poet

i think tyson might could have put him away early, if not then i might give ali the edge,but i don't think it would be one sided by any means probably close ud. now i will agree with the other tyson nut hugger that he was superior to joe frazier in every way except heart but if joe ever would have fought tyson it would have resembled what big george did to him.

Res if you side with Poet, I have 0 respect for you, the guy is a troll

you said if James Tillis could go the distance with Tyson, than Ali could right?

The thing is, Tillis grabbed and smothered..that's not what Ali did against pressure fighters. Keep in mind Tillis lost almost every round.

If he grabbed and held Frazier he would have owned him up to in the first fight because of his height.

That's not what Ali did, Ali liked to pick away at his opponents and show off, just like Holmes tried to do.

If Ali did try and employ a plan like that, then yes he would win, but he wouldn't do that, he would dance and try to jab, and that would be his downfall. Tell me one short pressure fighter Ali did good against?

Tyson by Ko in the middle rounds. I think Tyson would walk through Ali's jab and be able to land good power shots on him.

Res if you side with Poet, I have 0 respect for you, the guy is a troll

you said if James Tillis could go the distance with Tyson, than Ali could right?

The thing is, Tillis grabbed and smothered..that's not what Ali did against pressure fighters.

If he grabbed and held Frazier he would have owned him up to in the first fight because of his height.

That's not what Ali did, Ali liked to pick away at his opponents and show off, just like Holmes tried to do.

If Ali did try and employ a plan like that, then yes he would win, but he wouldn't do that, he would dance and try to jab, and that would be his downfall. Tell me one short pressure fighter Ali did good against?



Uhhh, side with Poet on what?

Tillis both fought Tyson straight, and he grabbed him alot as well. He lasted because he found the perfect combination of these two things for him in that fight. Ali would find the perfect combination for himself in this fight as well, being the clever ring general that he is.

Ali did indeed smother Frazier as i mentioned a few posts before. If he hadn't he wouldn't have won, as Frazier hit as hard as Tyson, but was also far busier. He did it most often on the ropes when Frazier just unloaded on him non-stop. The thing is Ali didn't smother and hold untill a ref break, usually he would smother, then let go, then smother again. He controlled the action instead of the ref. Ali could do the same thing here when necessary, but the thing is, Tyson is no where near as busy. When he is busy, it is not a continual onslaught on the inside. The fact that Tyson fights from the outside in, instead of remaining on the inside to slug is his major liability in this style match up. It means he will have to outspeed and out think Ali from the outside to land on him. Tyson is fast, but not faster than even Frazier era Ali, much less prime Ali, and he certainly isn't smarter. Ali had a knack for keeping fighters at the end of his jab and cross and tying them up the moment they got any closer.

Uhhh, side with Poet on what?

Tillis both fought Tyson straight, and he grabbed him alot as well. He lasted because he found the perfect combination of these two things for him in that fight. Ali would find the perfect combination for himself in this fight as well, being the clever ring general that he is.

Ali did indeed smother Frazier as i mentioned a few posts before. If he hadn't he wouldn't have won, as Frazier hit as hard as Tyson, but was also far busier. He did it most often on the ropes when Frazier just unloaded on him non-stop. The thing is Ali didn't smother and hold untill a ref break, usually he would smother, then let go, then smother again. He controlled the action instead of the ref. Ali could do the same thing here when necessary, but the thing is, Tyson is no where near as busy. When he is busy, it is not a continual onslaught on the inside. The fact that Tyson fights from the outside in, instead of remaining on the inside to slug is his major liability in this style match up. It means he will have to outspeed and out think Ali from the outside to land on him. Tyson is fast, but not faster than even Frazier era Ali, much less prime Ali, and he certainly isn't smarter. Ali had a knack for keeping fighters at the end of his jab and cross and tying them up the moment they got any closer.

Ali didn't grab that much, if he did it was out of desperation, a clinch wasn't apart of Ali's game.

Frazier did not hit as hard as Tyson, Tyson was a KO artist, Frazier was not. Frazier's prime weight was also 204 lbs..he wasn't a huge guy. That was an extremely bold statement to compare the 2 in power.

I'm not totally disagreeing with you, If Ali did decide to incorporate the clinch he could win a decision, but like I said..he never did that..especially with Frazier who fought the same way Tyson did only had less power and less speed.

you underestimate Tyson's speed and power, he was extremely adept at catching opponent's with very hard shots and laying them out. I know Holmes wasn't at his best but Tyson knocked him unconscious, something nobody, not even shavers could do.

You also claimed Tyson wasn't as quick as even an old Ali, that's another bold statement, a young Tyson has extreme speed, his lateral movement is yet to be matched by another heavy weight. A Young Ali could flurry quite well, but Tyson's speed is only a fraction under Ali, due to his bulk.

Another thing, Ali in his Prime wasn't a masterful ring general, he used his talents for the day to pick fighters apart. Ali used his hand speed and danced around Liston, knocking him out. Ali, much like Bernard Hopkins, developed ring skills later in his career to cope with his age.

So pick one, the slower older Ali with ring smarts, or the younger Ali, with more speed.

Frazier did not hit as hard as Tyson, Tyson was a KO artist, Frazier was not. Frazier's prime weight was also 204 lbs..he wasn't a huge guy. That was an extremely bold statement to compare the 2 in power.

I'm not totally disagreeing with you, If Ali did decide to incorporate the clinch he could win a decision, but like I said..he never did that..especially with Frazier who fought the same way Tyson did only had less power and less speed.

Ali used his hand speed and danced around Liston, knocking him out. Ali, much like Bernard Hopkins, developed ring skills later in his career to cope with his age.




I'm not sure what one's defintion of a knockout artist is but 27 kos in 32 wins deserves consideration. Unlike Tyson, Frazier was an effective body puncher with late power; this is what bothered Ali.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMdGNhSLE6A&feature=related



Ali didn't clinch!!! A blind Ali using his footwork and clinching to survive a storming Liston.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cILaQkF_Id8&feature=related

Ali did show more smarts as he got older but he had too. That doesn't mean prime Ali was a mindless talent either.

Ali didn't grab that much, if he did it was out of desperation, a clinch wasn't apart of Ali's game.

Frazier did not hit as hard as Tyson, Tyson was a KO artist, Frazier was not. Frazier's prime weight was also 204 lbs..he wasn't a huge guy. That was an extremely bold statement to compare the 2 in power.

I'm not totally disagreeing with you, If Ali did decide to incorporate the clinch he could win a decision, but like I said..he never did that..especially with Frazier who fought the same way Tyson did only had less power and less speed.

you underestimate Tyson's speed and power, he was extremely adept at catching opponent's with very hard shots and laying them out. I know Holmes wasn't at his best but Tyson knocked him unconscious, something nobody, not even shavers could do.

You also claimed Tyson wasn't as quick as even an old Ali, that's another bold statement, a young Tyson has extreme speed, his lateral movement is yet to be matched by another heavy weight. A Young Ali could flurry quite well, but Tyson's speed is only a fraction under Ali, due to his bulk.

Another thing, Ali in his Prime wasn't a masterful ring general, he used his talents for the day to pick fighters apart. Ali used his hand speed and danced around Liston, knocking him out. Ali, much like Bernard Hopkins, developed ring skills later in his career to cope with his age.

So pick one, the slower older Ali with ring smarts, or the younger Ali, with more speed.

Ofcourse Ali didn't clinch on anything like the level of someone like James Tillis, but he wouldn't have to. It is just innacurate to say that it wasn't a key to his victories over Frazier over the long term. Ali beating Frazier by just sticking and moving is unrealistic, period. Like i said, he didn't usually tie up to hold untill a ref break or anything like that, but he would often briefly tie up his opponents in order to neutralize a particular attack or rally from them, and then release them. That is particularly disadvantageous for someone like Tyson who fights in bursts.

"Extremely bold" to say that Frazier hit as hard as Tyson? Give me a break, People said it during Tyson's entire career, and the reason Tyson was a "knock out artist" was because he was fighting a bunch of anonymous bums that Tyson fans don't even remember the names of, not some of the best champs and contenders in boxing history as Frazier was (and frazier still had an excellent knockout record). Frazier hit about as hard but was much busier and constant in his assault. Furthermore he scrapped alot from the inside, which is what made him a strong competitor for Ali. Tyson does not have this style. Tyson is going to try to fight a boxing master from the outside in with his trademark "closing in" style of attack and this isn't going to work. In other words, Tyson attacks by firing punches within the few seconds that it takes him to launch from the outside to the inside of his opponents defense, then when he is inside, he usually stops. He has certainly clocked fighters from the inside before, but he is not insistent about it like Frazier, and it is easy to neutralize him there.

Now the thing about Tyson's speed, is that he is not a boxer puncher, which means that he does not use his speed in the way that a boxer puncher does. A boxer puncher with Tyson's speed would have a chance of beating frazier era Ali to the punch at times. When the real Tyson attacks, his entire body has to be launched with him because of his style (which is catered to his short arms). He does it pretty quickly, but sorry, even the Frazier era Ali, is going to be able to move his head and arms faster than young Tyson moves his whole body during one of those types of attacks. I even saw the C level Tillis avoid Tyson's full body "closing in" assault plenty of times through slick movement and blocking during the course of the fight, not just by smothering. Now Ali sure will not carelessly hang out on the inside with him as some of his opponents have, and Tyson does not even press to remain on the inside. He simply assumes that eventually he will land while closing in from the outside. The Tyson jab? Hahaha, obviously a short armed non-boxer puncher is not going to beat someone like Ali in a jabbing contest. I just don't see Tyson's leaping attacks catching the swift Ali. If Tyson tries to initiate with an attack from the outside in, the slicker Ali will out think him, and as I said before, the countering game will be murder for Tyson when used against a master feinter. Now transform Tyson into Frazier, and make him the kind of fighter that stays on the inside and rips punches all night and Ali is going to have his hands full, that isn't Tyson though.

Ofcourse Ali didn't clinch on anything like the level of someone like James Tillis, but he wouldn't have to. It is just innacurate to say that it wasn't a key to his victories over Frazier over the long term. Ali beating Frazier by just sticking and moving is unrealistic, period. Like i said, he didn't usually tie up to hold untill a ref break or anything like that, but he would often briefly tie up his opponents in order to neutralize a particular attack or rally from them, and then release them. That is particularly disadvantageous for someone like Tyson who fights in bursts.

"Extremely bold" to say that Frazier hit as hard as Tyson? Give me a break, People said it during Tyson's entire career, and the reason Tyson was a "knock out artist" was because he was fighting a bunch of anonymous bums that Tyson fans don't even remember the names of, not some of the best champs and contenders in boxing history as Frazier was (and frazier still had an excellent knockout record). Frazier hit about as hard but was much busier and constant in his assault. Furthermore he scrapped alot from the inside, which is what made him a strong competitor for Ali. Tyson does not have this style. Tyson is going to try to fight a boxing master from the outside in with his trademark "closing in" style of attack and this isn't going to work. In other words, Tyson attacks by firing punches within the few seconds that it takes him to launch from the outside to the inside of his opponents defense, then when he is inside, he usually stops. He has certainly clocked fighters from the inside before, but he is not insistent about it like Frazier, and it is easy to neutralize him there.

Now the thing about Tyson's speed, is that he is not a boxer puncher, which means that he does not use his speed in the way that a boxer puncher does. A boxer puncher with Tyson's speed would have a chance of beating frazier era Ali to the punch at times. When the real Tyson attacks, his entire body has to be launched with him because of his style (which is catered to his short arms). He does it pretty quickly, but sorry, even the Frazier era Ali, is going to be able to move his head and arms faster than young Tyson moves his whole body during one of those types of attacks. I even saw the C level Tillis avoid Tyson's full body "closing in" assault plenty of times through slick movement and blocking during the course of the fight, not just by smothering. Now Ali sure will not carelessly hang out on the inside with him as some of his opponents have, and Tyson does not even press to remain on the inside. He simply assumes that eventually he will land while closing in from the outside. The Tyson jab? Hahaha, obviously a short armed non-boxer puncher is not going to beat someone like Ali in a jabbing contest. I just don't see Tyson's leaping attacks catching the swift Ali. If Tyson tries to initiate with an attack from the outside in, the slicker Ali will out think him, and as I said before, the countering game will be murder for Tyson when used against a master feinter. Now transform Tyson into Frazier, and make him the kind of fighter that stays on the inside and rips punches all night and Ali is going to have his hands full, that isn't Tyson though.


You are putting off huge assets of Tyson's game and acting like they wouldn't do anything, Ali would just dodge them. Ali couldn't dodge Frazier's left hook, he couldn't dodge Doug Jones, even Shaver's hit him with some good shots.

Ali wouldn't go unscathed fighting Tyson, you need a specific style to beat Tyson, such as foreman or Holyfield (these guys were tanks and weren't afraid of anything) Ali would not be able to dance all night and go unscathed, he would give Tyson 12 full rounds to land something big with his fast hands, the second Ali loses his legs he'd be on him.

I don't see Ali standing there and being a tough guy, backing Tyson up and throwing combination on the inside..since when did Ali do that? I know you guys think he's the greatest but if you think he would win by dancing you are sorely mistaken.

There is one thing both Frazier and Tyson have in common, they both fought average competition for most of their career, and lost their 2 biggest fights.

You go around cutting up everything Tyson did, Tyson did have more speed than Frazier and more power. Just watch the heavy bag videos. Or count the first round Ko's.

for the Record, Michael Spinks, wasn't he a master outside boxer to? Tyson closed the distance in 90 seconds and KTFO him.

Ali didn't clinch!!! A blind Ali using his footwork and clinching to survive a storming Liston.


Every fighter clinches, but it doesn't mean it's apart of their game. Ali didn't go in and plan on clinching to nullify an opponent's power and speed.

for a modern example, Ricky Hatton is a fighter that relies on the clinch.
Holyfield didn't rely on the clinch most of the time but it was his game plan in the Tyson fight.

I have a hard time seeing Ali losing to Tyson. Tyson never proved himself successfully against any great heavyweight but Ali has many times. In the fight, Ali may have a few shaky moments because of Tyson's abilities, but Ali would pull throug and over 12 rounds Ali wins a UD or stops Tyson late; Over 15 rounds and Ali stops him.

You are putting off huge assets of Tyson's game and acting like they wouldn't do anything, Ali would just dodge them. Ali couldn't dodge Frazier's left hook, he couldn't dodge Doug Jones, even Shaver's hit him with some good shots.

Ali wouldn't go unscathed fighting Tyson, you need a specific style to beat Tyson, such as foreman or Holyfield (these guys were tanks and weren't afraid of anything) Ali would not be able to dance all night and go unscathed, he would give Tyson 12 full rounds to land something big with his fast hands, the second Ali loses his legs he'd be on him.

I don't see Ali standing there and being a tough guy, backing Tyson up and throwing combination on the inside..since when did Ali do that? I know you guys think he's the greatest but if you think he would win by dancing you are sorely mistaken.

There is one thing both Frazier and Tyson have in common, they both fought average competition for most of their career, and lost their 2 biggest fights.

You go around cutting up everything Tyson did, Tyson did have more speed than Frazier and more power. Just watch the heavy bag videos. Or count the first round Ko's.

for the Record, Michael Spinks, wasn't he a master outside boxer to? Tyson closed the distance in 90 seconds and KTFO him.



Every fighter clinches, but it doesn't mean it's apart of their game. Ali didn't go in and plan on clinching to nullify an opponent's power and speed.

for a modern example, Ricky Hatton is a fighter that relies on the clinch.
Holyfield didn't rely on the clinch most of the time but it was his game plan in the Tyson fight.

First of all, Tyson does not have 12 rounds, you want us to be realistic about Tyson's assets but you won't be realistic about his liabilities. In reality, he has about 5 or 6 rounds to try to knock him out. At around 5 or 6 rounds he becomes sloppy and his skill is reduced to about half. After about 7 his endurance becomes a factor. We all know Ali stays fresh for quite while. I hope your now arguing for an early knock out because Tyson is not knocking Ali out late (such as in your 10th round prediction). Second, as i have been saying, Frazier stayed on the inside and scrapped, and pressed the fight on the inside, that is why he caught Ali. Tyson does not fight like this. True inside fighters can land on Ali, Tyson wasn't one of those. He lands while closing in from the outside and he just won't be quick enough to keep landing those kinds of punches on Ali. By the way, Doug Jones could land on Ali because he was a swift combination boxer puncher. Tyson is a one punch fighter. Deep on the inside, shoulder to shoulder, Tyson sometimes throws combinations though. That is the only time we get to see those neat combinations from him that he demonstrates on the heavy bag. I guess in part his approach was tailored to his reach. Jones was a 6 foot boxer puncher with the reach to throw swift combos while he danced from a distance.

I will certainly admit that Tyson was faster than Frazier, but power? they are about equal. Ali did't go in and plan to clinch to nullify power as a general strategy he did it at moments when he saw it was necessary, such as in many stages of the Frazier fight when he was on the ropes. You talk like Ali was a machine that did not adjust himself to who he was fighting, as well as to the realities within the fight. Haha that's actually true about Tyson, but not Ali. It's actually not true about most fighters. Most fighters watch the tapes and learn something so that they know how to approach the opponent they are facing.

First of all, Tyson does not have 12 rounds, you want us to be realistic about Tyson's assets but you won't be realistic about his liabilities. In reality, he has about 5 or 6 rounds to try to knock him out. At around 5 or 6 rounds he becomes sloppy and his skill is reduced to about half. After about 7 his endurance becomes a factor. We all know Ali stays fresh for quite while. I hope your now arguing for an early knock out because Tyson is not knocking Ali out late (such as in your 10th round prediction). Second, as i have been saying, Frazier stayed on the inside and scrapped, and pressed the fight on the inside, that is why he caught Ali. Tyson does not fight like this. True inside fighters can land on Ali, Tyson wasn't one of those. He lands while closing in from the outside and he just won't be quick enough to keep landing those kinds of punches on Ali. By the way, Doug Jones could land on Ali because he was a swift combination boxer puncher. Tyson is a one punch fighter. Deep on the inside, shoulder to shoulder, Tyson sometimes throws combinations though. That is the only time we get to see those neat combinations from him that he demonstrates on the heavy bag. I guess in part his approach was tailored to his reach. Jones was a 6 foot boxer puncher with the reach to throw swift combos while he danced from a distance.

I will certainly admit that Tyson was faster than Frazier, but power? they are about equal. Ali did't go in and plan to clinch to nullify power as a general strategy he did it at moments when he saw it was necessary, such as in many stages of the Frazier fight when he was on the ropes. You talk like Ali was a machine that did not adjust himself to who he was fighting, as well as to the realities within the fight. Haha that's actually true about Tyson, but not Ali. It's actually not true about most fighters. Most fighters watch the tapes and learn something so that they know how to approach the opponent they are facing.

Agreed! Also, Frazier didn't have the spectacular early KOs that Tyson did. Why? Because Tyson was a headhunter who was looking for the KO from the opening bell and went to the body only in spurts; Frazier, on the other hand, went to the body immediatly and was disciplined enough to keep at it round after round until his opponent crumbled. Also, the argument that Tyson hit harder because he was bigger is specious. Tyson was smaller than almost ALL his opponents, usually by 10 - 15 pounds and 4 - 6 inches; yet isn't one of the things Tyson advocates usually point out is that Tyson hit harder than all his opponents? Come on guys, you can't have it both ways.

Poet

Every fighter clinches, but it doesn't mean it's apart of their game. Ali didn't go in and plan on clinching to nullify an opponent's power and speed.

for a modern example, Ricky Hatton is a fighter that relies on the clinch.
Holyfield didn't rely on the clinch most of the time but it was his game plan in the Tyson fight.

Oh come on, Ali couldn't see Liston's punches so he adjusted and successfully clinched against a dangerous offensive fighter until he got his sight back. Do you not think he would clinch Tyson when necessary as well? Ali and his corner could adjust strategically even than, Tyson struggled with that even his prime.

Ali had problems clinching Fraizer because he wore him down with his relentless body attack on the inside. As pointed out, that isn't something Tyson ever did.

Oh come on, Ali couldn't see Liston's punches so he adjusted and successfully clinched against a dangerous offensive fighter until he got his sight back. Do you not think he would clinch Tyson when necessary as well? Ali and his corner could adjust strategically even than, Tyson struggled with that even his prime.

Ali had problems clinching Fraizer because he wore him down with his relentless body attack on the inside. As pointed out, that isn't something Tyson ever did.

That's not true, Tyson had a body attack and it was quite good. He often put fighters down with body shots. I don't see Ali adapting, he was no doubt a great fighter but overrated he is. Ali would Clinch Tyson due to his instinct, but you seem to think it's impossible for Ali to lose on a decision. Tyson threw and landed more punches, based on a round percentage. Ali would have to be physically strong enough and throw wicked combination's on the inside. This is something Ali never did after his return. Tyson would back Ali up on to the ropes and punish him.

you guys are acting like Tyson is a sloppy aggressive fighter who gasses and has no skill. Tyson was tutored by the late great Cus' d amato, he is technically sound, more technical than Ali is. No Tyson didn't throw as many combination's as he did on the heavy bag, but the same can be said about Ali boasting about his handspeed, which was overrated. Anyone can look fast fighting Liston.

Shockingly I agree with Thunder Lips on something!

Poet

Oh come on, Ali couldn't see Liston's punches so he adjusted and successfully clinched against a dangerous offensive fighter until he got his sight back. Do you not think he would clinch Tyson when necessary as well? Ali and his corner could adjust strategically even than, Tyson struggled with that even his prime.

Ali had problems clinching Fraizer because he wore him down with his relentless body attack on the inside. As pointed out, that isn't something Tyson ever did.

Thats why i believe that Ali's strength was underrated. He was actually easily able to tie Liston up when ever he needed to and he did it without any trouble. I remember Tony Tucker, James Smith and Mitch Green Tying up a prime Tyson and frustrating with him with it. Ali wouldn't have too much trouble there. He wasn't a small heavyweight at 6'2 in a half/210+ so he would definitely be able to get the job done.

I personally can't see Tyson winning this fight at all. Anything can happen but odds are that Tyson would get a beating. In order for him to win, then he would have to do something that Liston, Frazier, Foreman or Bonevena didn't do and that is too blow Ali away and i'm pretty sure none of us really see that happening. Tyson is the best 5 round fighter of all time but after that, he tended to get passive in the later rounds and Ali would have just picked him apart and ate him up.

That's not true, Tyson had a body attack and it was quite good. He often put fighters down with body shots. I don't see Ali adapting, he was no doubt a great fighter but overrated he is. Ali would Clinch Tyson due to his instinct, but you seem to think it's impossible for Ali to lose on a decision. Tyson threw and landed more punches, based on a round percentage. Ali would have to be physically strong enough and throw wicked combination's on the inside. This is something Ali never did after his return. Tyson would back Ali up on to the ropes and punish him.

you guys are acting like Tyson is a sloppy aggressive fighter who gasses and has no skill. Tyson was tutored by the late great Cus' d amato, he is technically sound, more technical than Ali is. No Tyson didn't throw as many combination's as he did on the heavy bag, but the same can be said about Ali boasting about his handspeed, which was overrated. Anyone can look fast fighting Liston.

"Prime" Tyson in deep water:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xks6xSZg-88

A lethargic and frustrated Tyson in primitive one jab at a time mode against a one armed and barely active Tucker.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60SyqgX3BVU

Tyson throwing one punch at a time and struggling in the grapple against Green. Round 8 in particular is troubling.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewHs5oh8qjI

Even a pro-Tyson edit reveals his frustration with Bonecrusher Smith.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnadFiCKDWQ

"Blown up Light Heavy" Tillis outboxing and outworking a somewhat green Tyson in the late rounds.


Where is the consistent body work, the high volume punching, and the late power to overcome these frustrating hit and clinch tactics? Where is this two fisted monster after a few rounds?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jehl9APHszM



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ3aUmSBSbY&feature=related

What it takes to beat Ali. I honestly don't think Tyson has this in him. He never had the patience, the body work, and the stamina to do this.

"Prime" Tyson in deep water:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xks6xSZg-88

A lethargic and frustrated Tyson in primitive one jab at a time mode against a one armed and barely active Tucker.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60SyqgX3BVU

Tyson throwing one punch at a time and struggling in the grapple against Green. Round 8 in particular is troubling.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewHs5oh8qjI

Even a pro-Tyson edit reveals his frustration with Bonecrusher Smith.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnadFiCKDWQ

"Blown up Light Heavy" Tillis outboxing and outworking a somewhat green Tyson in the late rounds.


Where is the consistent body work, the high volume punching, and the late power to overcome these frustrating hit and clinch tactics? Where is this two fisted monster after a few rounds?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jehl9APHszM



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ3aUmSBSbY&feature=related

What it takes to beat Ali. I honestly don't think Tyson has this in him. He never had the patience, the body work, and the stamina to do this.

you basically picked out Tysons worst moments and acted like this is how he fights. Ali has some pretty horrible moments to, like getting one punch knocked down by Frazier, losing to Leon Spinks, losing to Norton getting a cheap ass win against Lyle, who definently was not done..getting dropped by a clown like Doug Jones..

go watch the Tucker fight, he showed good body work and endurance in that fight. Tyson did fade after about round 5, but you are mkaing him out to be sloppy fighter who gasses. I can remember many times when Ali was panting and out on his feet, sloppy as all get out. (the Foreman fight for example, and the rematch with Patterson, he was gassed).

no offense, but watching Frazier fight made me laugh, Tyson even in round 12 is quicker than that. Tyson is so much more technically skilled than Frazier I don't see what you are getting at. How is frazier so much more fresh in round 12 (or 15) show me Tyson gassing and acting any worse than Frazier is.

another thing I noticed about Frazier is he is much smaller than Tyson, Tyson is short yes but he was twice as muscular as Frazier and Wider, he also weighed about 15 lbs more.

So you watched both Tyson and Frazier, and you are telling me you are more impressed with Frazier? I don't see it.

"you basically picked out Tysons worst moments and acted like this is how he fights."

If that was my intention I would have posted a lazy mentally damaged Tyson eating punches from Ruddock, Lewis, Douglas, or quitting against that fat guy that threw arm punches.

This was Tyson in his prime with a pattern of furstration against dancers who could clinch and counter from the outside; sound like anyone we know.

"Ali has some pretty horrible moments to, like getting one punch knocked down by Frazier, losing to Leon Spinks, losing to Norton getting a cheap ass win against Lyle, who definently was not done..getting dropped by a clown like Doug Jones.."

But that would be as pointless as me bringing up Tyson's troubles with ****ing Botha in his comeback bid and his terrible string of closing matches. I'm even trying be fair by even keeping Holyfield out of this.

"go watch the Tucker fight, he showed good body work and endurance in that fight. Tyson did fade after about round 5, but you are mkaing him out to be sloppy fighter who gasses. I can remember many times when Ali was panting and out on his feet, sloppy as all get out. (the Foreman fight for example, and the rematch with Patterson, he was gassed)."

Yet past his prime Ali was still an incredible fight closer, taking huge beatings against all time bangers like Foreman and Frazier to make startling comebacks. This is what were all talking about:

Patterson TKO 7
Foreman KO 8
Joe Fraizer TKO 14

And I posted the Tucker fight, not sure what effective body work your talking about. Tyson did get sloppy late in fights, he did run out of steam, and he was easily frustrated because of his inconsistent attack.


"no offense, but watching Frazier fight made me laugh, Tyson even in round 12 is quicker than that. Tyson is so much more technically skilled than Frazier I don't see what you are getting at. How is frazier so much more fresh in round 12 (or 15) show me Tyson gassing and acting any worse than Frazier is."

Fraizer closing strong against Ali is laughable but Tyson struggling to close out fights with guys like Mitch Green, Tillis, and Bone Crusher Smith is impressive? Ok, to each their own I suppose.


"another thing I noticed about Frazier is he is much smaller than Tyson, Tyson is short yes but he was twice as muscular as Frazier and Wider, he also weighed about 15 lbs more."

I guess that says it all. Who hit harder after Round 7 I wander, who had the better legs and was strategically superior? And this is from someone who took shit for slightly favoring Tyson over Fraizer.

"you basically picked out Tysons worst moments and acted like this is how he fights."

If that was my intention I would have posted a lazy mentally damaged Tyson eating punches from Ruddock, Lewis, Douglas, or quitting against that fat guy that threw arm punches.

This was Tyson in his prime with a pattern of furstration against dancers who could clinch and counter from the outside; sound like anyone we know.

"Ali has some pretty horrible moments to, like getting one punch knocked down by Frazier, losing to Leon Spinks, losing to Norton getting a cheap ass win against Lyle, who definently was not done..getting dropped by a clown like Doug Jones.."

But that would be as pointless as me bringing up Tyson's troubles with ****ing Botha in his comeback bid and his terrible string of closing matches. I'm even trying be fair by even keeping Holyfield out of this.

"go watch the Tucker fight, he showed good body work and endurance in that fight. Tyson did fade after about round 5, but you are mkaing him out to be sloppy fighter who gasses. I can remember many times when Ali was panting and out on his feet, sloppy as all get out. (the Foreman fight for example, and the rematch with Patterson, he was gassed)."

Yet past his prime Ali was still an incredible fight closer, taking huge beatings against all time bangers like Foreman and Frazier to make startling comebacks. This is what were all talking about:

Patterson TKO 7
Foreman KO 8
Joe Fraizer TKO 14

And I posted the Tucker fight, not sure what effective body work your talking about. Tyson did get sloppy late in fights, he did run out of steam, and he was easily frustrated because of his inconsistent attack.


"no offense, but watching Frazier fight made me laugh, Tyson even in round 12 is quicker than that. Tyson is so much more technically skilled than Frazier I don't see what you are getting at. How is frazier so much more fresh in round 12 (or 15) show me Tyson gassing and acting any worse than Frazier is."

Fraizer closing strong against Ali is laughable but Tyson struggling to close out fights with guys like Mitch Green, Tillis, and Bone Crusher Smith is impressive? Ok, to each their own I suppose.


"another thing I noticed about Frazier is he is much smaller than Tyson, Tyson is short yes but he was twice as muscular as Frazier and Wider, he also weighed about 15 lbs more."

I guess that says it all. Who hit harder after Round 7 I wander, who had the better legs and was strategically superior? And this is from someone who took shit for slightly favoring Tyson over Fraizer.

you say you won't being of his bad moments yet you do anyways, should I bring up Holmes? Berbick? those guys beat up a past prime Ali to...

I didn't say Tyson was impressive in late rounds, I said Frazier wasn't impressive. It's true, Frazier is finishing no fresher than Tyson ever did..you could tell Frazier was tired as hell in that clip. It's a complete myth saying Frazier is a better late round fighter, I've yet to see proof that he shows excellent skills late rounds, other than a lucky punch that Ali should have seen coming.

Frazier was a one handed fighter, you watch him later on in a fight and you are telling me he's fresh? All he was doing was swinging his big left over and over and hoping for a knock out. How is Tyson worse than that?

"you say you won't being of his bad moments yet you do anyways, should I bring up Holmes? Berbick? those guys beat up a past prime Ali to..."

I only bring them up to draw a line between the relevant and irrelevant. The matches I posted were relevant to the topic not just handpicked bad moments.

"I didn't say Tyson was impressive in late rounds, I said Frazier wasn't impressive. It's true, Frazier is finishing no fresher than Tyson ever did..you could tell Frazier was tired as hell in that clip. It's a complete myth saying Frazier is a better late round fighter, I've yet to see proof that he shows excellent skills late rounds, other than a lucky punch that Ali should have seen coming."

I'm not sure what to make of this, looking for "excellent skills" to ignore Fraizer's workrate, stamina, and purposeful offense when you don't think he has excellent skills anyway.


"Frazier was a one handed fighter, you watch him later on in a fight and you are telling me he's fresh? All he was doing was swinging his big left over and over and hoping for a knock out. How is Tyson worse than that?"

Tyson doesn't get off nearly as many punches, he is easily tied up, and his opponents by now can avoid his lethargic head hunting as they haven't been slowed down or forced to drop their hands from any body attack. Do you really think Mitch Green is that much better than Ali? I don't think so but I wouldn't be surprised if you tried to argue that at this point.

"you say you won't being of his bad moments yet you do anyways, should I bring up Holmes? Berbick? those guys beat up a past prime Ali to..."

I only bring them up to draw a line between the relevant and irrelevant. The matches I posted were relevant to the topic not just handpicked bad moments.

"I didn't say Tyson was impressive in late rounds, I said Frazier wasn't impressive. It's true, Frazier is finishing no fresher than Tyson ever did..you could tell Frazier was tired as hell in that clip. It's a complete myth saying Frazier is a better late round fighter, I've yet to see proof that he shows excellent skills late rounds, other than a lucky punch that Ali should have seen coming."

I'm not sure what to make of this, looking for "excellent skills" to ignore Fraizer's workrate, stamina, and purposeful offense when you don't think he has excellent skills anyway.


"Frazier was a one handed fighter, you watch him later on in a fight and you are telling me he's fresh? All he was doing was swinging his big left over and over and hoping for a knock out. How is Tyson worse than that?"

Tyson doesn't get off nearly as many punches, he is easily tied up, and his opponents by now can avoid his lethargic head hunting as they haven't been slowed down or forced to drop their hands from any body attack. Do you really think Mitch Green is that much better than Ali? I don't think so but I wouldn't be surprised if you tried to argue that at this point.

I never said Mitch green was better, but that's like arguing that Leon Spinks is better than Tyson. Mitch just knew how to contain Tyson.

why wouldn't Ali tie up Frazier?, don't go making up some bullshit that Frazier was harder to tie up, Frazier was smaller, weaker and didn't throw as many punches.

I never said Mitch green was better, but that's like arguing that Leon Spinks is better than Tyson. Mitch just knew how to contain Tyson.

why wouldn't Ali tie up Frazier?, don't go making up some bullshit that Frazier was harder to tie up, Frazier was smaller, weaker and didn't throw as many punches.

Frazier being weaker is speculation, size is not as big your making out, and your punch out put comment is flat out wrong to the point of being absurd and impossible to be took as anything but irony.

Why Ali didn't tie up Frazier? Honestly, have you just not seen Ali/Frazier? As a boxing fan you would do yourself a huge service watching those 15 rounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZpJsxqI_38

What is Ali doing everytime Frazier gets close or he gets trapped on the ropes? I'll give you hint, he doesn't whip out his cock and slap Smoking Joe in the face with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1b3G6A1NB4&feature=related

Problem is that Frazier kept the pressure on Ali all night, constantly working out of the grapple and throwing heavy bombs at his arms, sides, and anything he could find. Tyson never worked his way out of the clinch and he rarely went to the body as he struggled to keep his workrate up past the first 6 rounds. Notice Ali is still clinching before too much damage is done so I'm not sure where you are coming from.

Workrate is the key to beating Ali. The ability to put constant pressure on him, work out of the clinch, and attack his body and guard for about 15 rounds. This is why guys like Chuvalo and Norton were more troubling for him than power punching monsters like Foreman and Liston.

Frazier being weaker is speculation, size is not as big your making out, and your punch out put comment is flat out wrong to the point of being absurd and impossible to be took as anything but irony.

Why Ali didn't tie up Frazier? Honestly, have you just not seen Ali/Frazier? As a boxing fan you would do yourself a huge service watching those 15 rounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZpJsxqI_38

What is Ali doing everytime Frazier gets close or he gets trapped on the ropes? I'll give you hint, he doesn't whip out his cock and slap Smoking Joe in the face with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1b3G6A1NB4&feature=related

Problem is that Frazier kept the pressure on Ali all night, constantly working out of the grapple and throwing heavy bombs at his arms, sides, and anything he could find. Tyson never worked his way out of the clinch and he rarely went to the body as he struggled to keep his workrate up past the first 6 rounds. Notice Ali is still clinching before too much damage is done so I'm not sure where you are coming from.

Workrate is the key to beating Ali. The ability to put constant pressure on him, work out of the clinch, and attack his body and guard for about 15 rounds. This is why guys like Chuvalo and Norton were more troubling for him than power punching monsters like Foreman and Liston.

So you think that Frazier is stronger than Tyson? Frazier was 204 lbs in his prime, Tyson was 217. how can you watch a Frazier match and say that he's stronger than Tyson. I know you don't like Tyson because of his fan base, but Tyson is better than Frazier in almost every aspect. Sure Frazier had heart, but if Tyson went in disrespecting his opponents power he always won.
Ali isn't going to hurt Tyson. If Tyson can stay on his feet after taking hits from Razor Ruddock, Ali isn't going to do shit all to Tyson.

another thing, since when was Tyson outboxed? going 12 rounds doesn't mean outboxed. Technically Spinks and Holmes should have been able to out box him, but they couldn't.

I'd also like to see a video of Tyson gassing like all the clowns on this forum like to think. Tyson had average endurance, he always went the full 12 rounds and never showed any extreme fatigue. He looked just like Frazier in round 12.

Problem is that Frazier kept the pressure on Ali all night, constantly working out of the grapple and throwing heavy bombs at his arms, sides, and anything he could find. Tyson never worked his way out of the clinch and he rarely went to the body as he struggled to keep his workrate up past the first 6 rounds. Notice Ali is still clinching before too much damage is done so I'm not sure where you are coming from.

This I will agree with, Tyson never seemed to try to get out of a clinch, I think he did this to conserve energy since he was often the shorter man.

I do notice Frazier always trying to rip free, but I still can't see Ali being able to stop the barrage of Tyson, especially since he liked to show boat and run around with his hands down.

So you think that Frazier is stronger than Tyson? Frazier was 204 lbs in his prime, Tyson was 217. how can you watch a Frazier match and say that he's stronger than Tyson. I know you don't like Tyson because of his fan base, but Tyson is better than Frazier in almost every aspect. Sure Frazier had heart, but if Tyson went in disrespecting his opponents power he always won.
Ali isn't going to hurt Tyson. If Tyson can stay on his feet after taking hits from Razor Ruddock, Ali isn't going to do shit all to Tyson.

another thing, since when was Tyson outboxed? going 12 rounds doesn't mean outboxed. Technically Spinks and Holmes should have been able to out box him, but they couldn't.

I'd also like to see a video of Tyson gassing like all the clowns on this forum like to think. Tyson had average endurance, he always went the full 12 rounds and never showed any extreme fatigue. He looked just like Frazier in round 12.



This I will agree with, Tyson never seemed to try to get out of a clinch, I think he did this to conserve energy since he was often the shorter man.

I do notice Frazier always trying to rip free, but I still can't see Ali being able to stop the barrage of Tyson, especially since he liked to show boat and run around with his hands down.


The point is that if C level fighters like this can outbox Tyson at spots, and go the whole 10 or 12 rounds, an A level boxer like Ali will more than likely outbox him the whole fight, especially considering the virtual impossibility of a late round K.O. When it comes to an early K.O., what does Mitch Green have that Ali dosen't?

Also, the fact that you want to keep using old man Holmes to make your point only further illustrates how much of a mismatch this will be.

The point is that if C level fighters like this can outbox Tyson at spots, and go the whole 10 or 12 rounds, an A level boxer like Ali will more than likely outbox him the whole fight, especially considering the virtual impossibility of a late round K.O. When it comes to an early K.O., what does Mitch Green have that Ali dosen't?

Also, the fact that you want to keep using old man Holmes to make your point only further illustrates how much of a mismatch this will be.

Many C level fighters took Ali 12 rounds. When was Tyson outboxed in those fights? the 87-89 Tyson got solid UD's over them.

you said "what does Mitch green have that Ali doesn't? you could say the same about Holmes, his chin was just as good as Ali's. (Yes I used him again)

"So you think that Frazier is stronger than Tyson? Frazier was 204 lbs in his prime, Tyson was 217. how can you watch a Frazier match and say that he's stronger than Tyson."

I'm not going to keep repeating myself. In terms of punching power, Tyson had a much better overhead right and Frazier was the better body puncher, its give or take really with the left up for grabs. Frazier carried more late power though as Tyson's punches lost their snap middway through the fight. I told the same thing to Poet when he wanted to argue that Frazier was the bigger puncher.

Physically speaking, Tyson never demonstrated any brute power. Regarded as being much weaker coming into their fight Holyfield still controlled and frustrated a very heavy Tyson in the clinch as did the light Tillis and most any fighter who used it against him. Frazier on the otherhand overpowered heavy strong guys like Mathis and Chuvalo on the inside, only really meeting his physical match in the freakish Foreman.

"I know you don't like Tyson because of his fan base."

I actually like Tyson. Even someone as dumb and annoying as BoxingProspect couldn't spoil this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMGzKcbCYPc


"Ali isn't going to hurt Tyson. If Tyson can stay on his feet after taking hits from Razor Ruddock, Ali isn't going to do shit all to Tyson."

Holyfield and Douglas stopped him with an accumliation of jabs and punches, which wouldn't be a huge stretch for Ali as his punches tended to add up over the course of a fight. Ali could also be very busy in deep water where even guys as tough as Foreman and Frazier were vunerable to being stopped.


"another thing, since when was Tyson outboxed? going 12 rounds doesn't mean outboxed. Technically Spinks and Holmes should have been able to out box him, but they couldn't. "

I didn't say he was outboxed, but he was frustrated by very limited fighters with a very simple strategy that he never showed the ability to adjust to.

Holmes did outbox Tyson while he had his legs, but the fact he was coming off a huge layoff to fight someone at Tyson's level should be took into consideration. Spinks was semi-retired and wanted no part of Tyson until the money was too good to turn down, he went to that fight with no intention of winning and most everyone outside of "Tyson" haters knew it.

"I'd also like to see a video of Tyson gassing like all the clowns on this forum like to think. Tyson had average endurance, he always went the full 12 rounds and never showed any extreme fatigue. He looked just like Frazier in round 12."

I posted several videos of Tyson looking lethargic and frustrated in deep water fights while showing little activity beyond throwing a few punches a time while being very easy to catch and clinch because of his head hunting and lack of activity.

Here is Frazier destroying the undefeated Mathis; who was tall, really quick, and a heavy clincher not unlike Tucker if maybe better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi-iVoxoqww


"This I will agree with, Tyson never seemed to try to get out of a clinch, I think he did this to conserve energy since he was often the shorter man."

It didn't seem to do him any good than.

Many C level fighters took Ali 12 rounds. When was Tyson outboxed in those fights? the 87-89 Tyson got solid UD's over them.

you said "what does Mitch green have that Ali doesn't? you could say the same about Holmes, his chin was just as good as Ali's. (Yes I used him again)

C level fighters took Ali 12 rounds? true, but that dosen't make any point, Ali wasn't a knock out fighter and he wouldn't need a knock out in this fight, Tyson would. The punch output of both fighters and Tyson's late round slow down assure that. Unless you think Tyson is going to decision Ali lol.

It's all going to depend on what version of Mike Tyson comes to the ring. The Tyson that seems to give up after the first round, Or the Tyson that is very motivated (such as against Tucker).

It's all going to depend on what version of Mike Tyson comes to the ring. The Tyson that seems to give up after the first round, Or the Tyson that is very motivated (such as against Tucker).


No version of Tyson is going to decision Ali.

Wait, are you arguing now that we have to look for different versions of Tyson within his prime.

No version of Tyson is going to decision Ali.

Wait, are you arguing now that we have to look for different versions of Tyson within his prime.

Don't start getting sarcastic with me, you know there are 2 versions of Tyson.

Ali had 2 versions also. The older fighter with overrated handspeed and good ring knowledge, and the younger quicker Ali with an overrated chin.

Because of the rope a dope people think Ali is God. Who did Ali beat that had the same physical attributes as Tyson? Tyson could punch, was blazing fast and had an Iron chin, he was also technically proficient. I just don't see a 210 lb Ali doing much to Tyson.

Foreman could punch, but he was slow and clumsy, Frazier had decent power and defense, but he was slow to and never used his right hand.

Ali always had trouble with someone of comparable handspeed, he also had trouble with short explosive fighters. Tyson is short and explosive, he's got brutal punching power and handspeed, with Rooney in his corner he beats Ali.

Don't start getting sarcastic with me, you know there are 2 versions of Tyson.

Ali had 2 versions also. The older fighter with overrated handspeed and good ring knowledge, and the younger quicker Ali with an overrated chin.

Because of the rope a dope people think Ali is God. Who did Ali beat that had the same physical attributes as Tyson? Tyson could punch, was blazing fast and had an Iron chin, he was also technically proficient. I just don't see a 210 lb Ali doing much to Tyson.

Foreman could punch, but he was slow and clumsy, Frazier had decent power and defense, but he was slow to and never used his right hand.

Ali always had trouble with someone of comparable handspeed, he also had trouble with short explosive fighters. Tyson is short and explosive, he's got brutal punching power and handspeed, with Rooney in his corner he beats Ali.

Patterson fits that description, Ali had little trouble with him.
The fighters Ali had trouble with were those who kept pressuring him for 15 rounds without quitting.
Ali looked good against Frazier and Norton in the early rounds but the consistent, relentless pressure and bodywork got to Ali in the later rounds.

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Norton vs Ali II

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Frazier vs Ali II

Norton out boxed him and Patterson would be a middleweight now-a-days

Ok, you had some good points the Manchine, the thing that makes me ponder though is how someone like Doug Jones can Tag and Drop Ali, and how Leon Spinks can beat him just be being ultra aggressive..

I like how Ali comes out says he would have beat all those Old fighters, because I agree with him, he was very modern for his day.

Watching Joe Frazier vs Ali 2 just makes me even more opinionated, he's just lucky Joe Frazier was slow and had bad footwork, Some of those big left hook missed him by a hair. I just can see it, Tyson manhandling him and stalking him, lunging in and throwing lightning fast hooks.

Norton out boxed him and Patterson would be a middleweight now-a-days

Norton confused Ali with his unorthodox style. He was, in my opinion, the worst match-up of all heavyweights for Ali, based on styles. Even worse than Frazier.

Patterson was never a big heavyweight but he was still almost 200 lbs for the Ali fight and solid. He was a cruiserweight at that point of his career, earlier he could have been a light heavyweight for sure.

Ok, you had some good points the Manchine, the thing that makes me ponder though is how someone like Doug Jones can Tag and Drop Ali, and how Leon Spinks can beat him just be being ultra aggressive..

I've seen many Ali interviews before those fights with Cooper and Jones and not to make any excuses but Ali did not take them too seriously to say the least. It was good to see him knocked back down to earth, literally.

Doug Jones never dropped Ali though, it was Henry Cooper, Jones fought hard for 10 rounds and lost a close decision.

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I like how Ali comes out says he would have beat all those Old fighters, because I agree with him, he was very modern for his day.

Ali's style was influenced by Robinson, Walcott, Johnson and others.
It's actually more 'old' that it is 'new', today all fighters are instructed to keep their hands up at all times and few would 'dance' like Ali did.
I'm not saying fighters like Mayweather don't but I'm pointing to today's HW division and in general, aside from a few exceptions.

Joe Louis laid down the gameplan on how to beat Ali already in the 60's. Frazier and Norton both used it.
I don't know if Louis would beat him, but he certainly knew how to:

“The kid has speed and there’s no one around to outbox him, and the opponent who tries is in his grave. Especially in the middle if the ring. I’d see to it that Clay didn’t stay in ring center. No. He’d be hit into those ropes as near a corner as I could get him. If he stayed on the ropes he would get hurt. Sooner or later he’d try to bounce off, when he did he would get hurt more. I’d press him, cut down his speed, and bang him around the ribs. I’d punish the body. “Kill the body and the head will die”, Chappie use to tell me. It figures. Sooner or later he’d forget about that face of his and he would start dropping that left hand like he did against Mildenberger and Chuvalo. Those fellows got their openings by accident, and fouled it up. I would work for it and wouldn’t reckon to miss when it arrived. Cassius Clay is a nice boy and a smart fighter. But I am sure Joe Louis would have licked him.”

Watching Joe Frazier vs Ali 2 just makes me even more opinionated, he's just lucky Joe Frazier was slow and had bad footwork, Some of those big left hook missed him by a hair. I just can see it, Tyson manhandling him and stalking him, lunging in and throwing lightning fast hooks.

Frazier was not at his best, he had slowened down by that point. Still in marvelous condition though, ready to go 15 rounds.

Then again neither was Ali, he was already 32.

Fighters with their styles don't usually last very long.

Prime Frazier:
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The Ali - Williams fight:
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I actually like Tyson. Even someone as dumb and annoying as BoxingProspect couldn't spoil thiswith this you prove what a classless, clueless, arrogant ****ing prick that you are. Geez how do you even get into discussions like this. You still sore that i bash you for your dumb ****ing posts?

it's idiots like yourself, Poet, and occasionally Slicksouthpaw that really bring down the site with your stupidity. You also quick to jump on someone's nuts and start beating the drumline. Can someone please provide actual quotes where i resembled anything close to nutthugging when i was talking about tyson??? dont give me this crap "oh, you biased, unfair, make tyson into god, blah blah, blah" can someone provide actual quotes to prove this.

idiots like you, ****lips, jump on Poet's wagon and agree with him, when i make couple of tyson threads in boxing history forum, and he throw a hissy fit. i would have taken him a little serious, if at least he didnt show how hatefull he was, and still is. .

for the record there are fighters like leonard, robinson, duran, armstrong and many others who P4P i would rate over tyson. Louis, and Ali are the heavyweights that i would rank over tyson without any hesitation and for the right reasons. even in my other thread i stated that tyson and louis' competition was similar close to being same, i didnt state that one was better than the other.

On the other hand, you, ****lips, are the kind of fan that really belittle the fighter he's defending. I like Rocky Marciano, and i consider him great, but it's fans like you that really make me say something bad about him.

when you come on the forums and start with your spam about him being as hard a puncher as foreman, shavers, tyson or others. Saying things like he would dust Klitschko, beat Lennox Lewis. Saying absurd garbage like La Starza would **** up tyson. Overate his competition, and try to make him into God, when in reality he fought some premium bums, and made his legacy on beating really old men who gave up fighting years before they stepped into the ring with him

it's funny how when you talk about tyson-green, you fail to mention that tyson busted his ****ing face, made him hold for dear life, and won every round. Same with bonecrusher smith. it's funny how you mention Tyson-Tillis, but you dont mention that Tillis was an exprerinced pro, having gone 15 rounds before, and fought champions and coming into the ring with 39 fights to his credit, to tyson's 19.

you have made some extremely absurd statements, and you're the biggest rocky marciano cocksucker that ive ever run into.

and did you really compare Frazier's opponent Mathis, to Tyson's Tucker? Tony Tucker may not have been a great fighter, or a household name, but he was twice as talented as mathis.

What a ****ing clown you are

as far as the match up goes, both fighters have a good chance against each other. this is not an over match, there are some things that ali did better than tyson, just as there are some qualities that tyson possesed that neither ali or his opponents did.

Liston may have had the hulky built with size, and jab, but he didnt have youth. Foreman might have had more power, but he didnt have speed with that power, and poor stamina. Patterson may have had effective bobbin and weavin style with explosive power in the left hand, but he didnt have the size. Frazier may have had a good pressuring style with a smokin' left hook, but he didnt have a good right hand, a jab to lead with, or tyson's uppercut.

all those guys also were doing well in areas that tyson wasnt effective in, and that has to factor in, especially with Tyson's style.

Ali's competition was much, much, much better, by all means. To me he's still a number one heavyweight, but it does not mean he was unbeatable.

all that bs about tyson collapsing in the later rounds, being tied up in clinches, not having heart....it's just BS.

another thing is that unlike ali, tyson has many more chances of ending the fight by KO, and it makes him dangerous in any round. even with his chin, other heavyweights who werent exactly ko artists, did put him on his back.

and did you really compare Frazier's opponent Mathis, to Tyson's Tucker? Tony Tucker may not have been a great fighter, or a household name, but he was twice as talented as mathis.

What a ****ing clown you are

To be fair Mathis was actually quite talented but he had terrible eating habits, ballooning from 220 lbs to 300 lbs and eventually 500+. He destroyed Chuvalo and gave Frazier a pretty good fight early on.

He was also a Cus D'Amato fighter. Tyson actually fought his son Buster Mathis Jr.

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Mathis fighting with the peek-a-boo style against Ali.

To be fair Mathis was actually quite talented but he had terrible eating habits, ballooning from 220 lbs to 300 lbs and eventually 500+. He destroyed Chuvalo and gave Frazier a pretty good fight early on.

He was also a Cus D'Amato fighter. Tyson actually fought his son Buster Mathis Jr.

Mathis was a decent competitor but Tucker would box circles around him, probably knock him out. His son was almost Identical to him, from what I've seen. I think he went 3 rounds with Tyson. Mathis is really slow though in that Ali video.

Boxing_prospect has garnered some hatred around here but what he says makes more sense than a lot of people on this forum that look at themselves as boxing historians. It's just like the Old timers thinking Louis would beat Ali or Foreman, simply no chance.

The Tyson vs Ali comparison was discussed in a pretty good fashion, strong points and weak points, although I think some of the Frazier crap is pretty delusional, saying he was stronger and hit harder than Tyson. To me that just screams ignorance.

The shit that's just plain stupid is match ups like Marciano vs Lewis as prospect said, or Marciano vs Tyson. Athletes have evolved.

To be fair Mathis was actually quite talented but he had terrible eating habits, ballooning from 220 lbs to 300 lbs and eventually 500+. He destroyed Chuvalo and gave Frazier a pretty good fight early on.

He was also a Cus D'Amato fighter. Tyson actually fought his son Buster Mathis Jr.

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Mathis fighting with the peek-a-boo style against Ali.manchine the thing that made mathis stand out imo was the his speed and footwork for such a large and heavy man. But like you said, the kitchen kept him away from achieving the results he needed to be considered a serious threat.

he did beat frazier in the amateurs, but years later was smoked despite giving a few good rounds to frazier in the pros.

tyson did fight his son but also that fight was actually rescheduled with Tyson camp pulling out with a pinkie injury. Their fight was the same year of Buster Mathis Sr death. In reality mike was friends with Mathis jr, and wanted him to recover mentally before stepping into the ring

both mathis sr, and jr, were pudgy, but his son was shorter and actually was giving mike a good fight before being caught with that uppercut.

i still cant say that mathis was better than tucker. there was a shape difference of course, plus tucker was a better all around fighter. But like i said Buster was busy in the ring.

Mathis was a decent competitor but Tucker would box circles around him, probably knock him out. His son was almost Identical to him, from what I've seen. I think he went 3 rounds with Tyson. Mathis is really slow though in that Ali video.

Well he looked quick for a 260 lb man, which he was for that fight.

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Here's Mathis in better shape against Frazier, the quality is pretty bad.

No idea how he would do against Tucker, but if he was out of shape it would probably end up like Douglas' fight against Tucker who to his credit showed up to his fights in condition.
Douglas was another fighter who had trouble with eating but he really brought it all in the ring for the Tyson fight. Mike didn't.

Boxing_prospect has garnered some hatred around here but what he says makes more sense than a lot of people on this forum that look at themselves as boxing historians. It's just like the Old timers thinking Louis would beat Ali or Foreman, simply no chance.

I don't see how he does not have even a chance. Louis is incredibly accurate with his combinations, a very good finisher who is always patient and smart.

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The Tyson vs Ali comparison was discussed in a pretty good fashion, strong points and weak points, although I think some of the Frazier crap is pretty delusional, saying he was stronger and hit harder than Tyson. To me that just screams ignorance.

The best point about Frazier has been that he keeps consistent, relentless pressure for 15 rounds. Tyson doesn't really do that, I think his best chances to do damage are in the early rounds.

The shit that's just plain stupid is match ups like Marciano vs Lewis as prospect said, or Marciano vs Tyson. Athletes have evolved.

Marciano is not exactly the best example of a boxing 'athlete'. Compare him to today's pressure fighters like Margarito, Povetkin or Pavlik.

Even in his day Marciano was thought to be unathletic, small and slow.

The problem with guys like boxing prospect and them apples is they think boxing started with Mike Tyson and everything that happend before was the Stone Age. It gets a little old arguing the same thing over and over again in pointless circle with someone as limited in his thinking as boxing prospect. They approach ever question with preconceived ideas and they refuse to accept any argument that doesn't dovetail with those ideas. You simply CAN'T have a civilized discussion or even a reasoned argument with someone like that. They are, in a sense, True Believers. They hold their notions like tenants of faith and no amount of reasoning will shake them from them. Notions like "Mike Tyson is superior to every Heavyweight that came before" and "Today is always superior to yesterday" ie. "Newer is always better".
It's kind of sad, but despite their protestations to the contrary every post they make reveals them to be the nuthuggers they are.

On an interesting note, I've found myself agreeing quite a bit with Thunder Lips, with whom I've had issues in the past. The arguments he's made on this thread are quite good, good enough that I've removed him from my ignore list.....and replaced him with boxing prospect who's broken record posts now bore me.

Poet

The problem with guys like boxing prospect and them apples is they think boxing started with Mike Tyson and everything that happend before was the Stone Age. It gets a little old arguing the same thing over and over again in pointless circle with someone as limited in his thinking as boxing prospect. They approach ever question with preconceived ideas and they refuse to accept any argument that doesn't dovetail with those ideas. You simply CAN'T have a civilized discussion or even a reasoned argument with someone like that. They are, in a sense, True Believers. They hold their notions like tenants of faith and no amount of reasoning will shake them from them. Notions like "Mike Tyson is superior to every Heavyweight that came before" and "Today is always superior to yesterday" ie. "Newer is always better".
It's kind of sad, but despite their protestations to the contrary every post they make reveals them to be the nuthuggers they are.

On an interesting note, I've found myself agreeing quite a bit with Thunder Lips, with whom I've had issues in the past. The arguments he's made on this thread are quite good, good enough that I've removed him from my ignore list.....and replaced him with boxing prospect who's broken record posts now bore me.

Poetjust to set the record with you, here's a response i made to another poster who was dissing old school fighters. this was about 3 months ago
i dont see any fighters today like sugar ray robinson. who stepped into the ring at 145 pounds to face a 160 pound jake la motta, lose, and come back after 2 WEEKS and beat him in the rematch, and continue beating him again numerous times after that

i dont see any fighters like henry armstrong who fought 27 times in one year scoring 26 kos. for most fighters today that's a whole career. i dont see many fighters today simultaneously holdong 3 world titles.

i dont see fighters like ali who after defeating joe frazier in the rematch stepping up against a guy like george foreman without taking any tune up fights. can you imagine fighting 2 hall of famers back to back. it's not your average hall of famers, it's foreman and frazier. for fighters like floyd it wouldnt be a part of smart business decision making

i dont see fighters like harry greb who fought half of their career blind in one eye. not only that, but having a legendary career at that

i dont see enough conditioned athletes today who can go more than 8 championship rounds without dying of exaustion. back in the day fighters fought 15 rounds.

i dont see fighters today ending their careers with more than a 100 wins

i could go on and on. to me it's insulting when i hear that fighters nowadays were better athletes than some of the legends that we had back in the day

just because you assume things about me Poet, it doesnt mean they are true, it just shows what an ignorant and arrogant son of a bitch that you are. Ive never said 'new is better', or 'tyson is superior' to other heavyweights, where do you get that suff?

your problem is that you hate tyson, and give him zero credit in anything. so whenever there's a poster who is a fan of mike, you immediately figure them for fan boys, who make him into the greatest etc...you're delusional man, im glad i made it on your famous wall of ignore list, shows me that ive been doing some good on these forums.

Don't start getting sarcastic with me, you know there are 2 versions of Tyson.

Ali had 2 versions also. The older fighter with overrated handspeed and good ring knowledge, and the younger quicker Ali with an overrated chin.

Because of the rope a dope people think Ali is God. Who did Ali beat that had the same physical attributes as Tyson? Tyson could punch, was blazing fast and had an Iron chin, he was also technically proficient. I just don't see a 210 lb Ali doing much to Tyson.

Foreman could punch, but he was slow and clumsy, Frazier had decent power and defense, but he was slow to and never used his right hand.

Ali always had trouble with someone of comparable handspeed, he also had trouble with short explosive fighters. Tyson is short and explosive, he's got brutal punching power and handspeed, with Rooney in his corner he beats Ali.




That is prime Ali and post prime Ali, I am not making distinctions within Ali's prime to try to make excuses for him. Unless you meant to suggest that post-prime Tyson would decision prime Ali, in which case i think i'm going to end this exchange.

Ali didn't have trouble with fighters of "comparable" hand speed who threw one shot at a time. I don't care how fast Tyson is, he is a one punch fighter (unless he is deep inside) and that isn't going to work against someone with Ali's speed. Ali certainly is not going to just hang out on the inside and try to exchange punches with Tyson like some of his foolish opponents. Furthermore, Tyson dosen't press to stay on the inside and rip shots, and he is easy to tie up as you even admit. Next, when it comes to a decision he dosen't have anything close to Ali's work rate, and he slows down in the late rounds whether you will admit it or not. He isn't taking a decision. Oh and one more time, if C level fighters with Ali's basic style survived prime Tyson so would Ali.

Fighters going 12 rounds with Ali have nothing to do with this, the discussion was originally about how likely it is that Ali will make it to the end. If they did it, he will, but the difference is he is an A level boxer puncher.

Ali would eat him alive. I don;t think he had bigger punching power than Foreman or could work his way in any better than Frazier. Ali in his prime was before the ban! And Tyson had problems dealing with a washed up Larry's jabs for a few rounds and we all know it.

That is prime Ali and post prime Ali, I am not making distinctions within Ali's prime to try to make excuses for him. Unless you meant to suggest that post-prime Tyson would decision prime Ali, in which case i think i'm going to end this exchange.

Ali didn't have trouble with fighters of "comparable" hand speed who threw one shot at a time. I don't care how fast Tyson is, he is a one punch fighter (unless he is deep inside) and that isn't going to work against someone with Ali's speed. Ali certainly is not going to just hang out on the inside and try to exchange punches with Tyson like some of his foolish opponents. Furthermore, Tyson dosen't press to stay on the inside and rip shots, and he is easy to tie up as you even admit. Next, when it comes to a decision he dosen't have anything close to Ali's work rate, and he slows down in the late rounds whether you will admit it or not. He isn't taking a decision. Oh and one more time, if C level fighters with Ali's basic style survived prime Tyson so would Ali.

Fighters going 12 rounds with Ali have nothing to do with this, the discussion was originally about how likely it is that Ali will make it to the end. If they did it, he will, but the difference is he is an A level boxer puncher.


Calling him a one punch fighter is pretty ridiculous. Frazier is the definition of a one punch fighter, you literally watch the entire fight wonder if he will use his right hand at all.

if C level fighters with Ali's basic style survived prime Tyson so would Ali.

what fighter emulated Ali's style? Tucker, Smith and Green all were vastly different. Tucker was 6'4 and had an uppercut, and solid power, Green was a brawler, smith was just a typical puncher.

Ali is a "dancer" he runs around the ring with his hands down, just like what Holmes and biggs tried to do and failed. On top of that he's smaller than those 3 fighters I mentioned. Ali doesn't have an uppercut ether, one of the crucial anti Tyson punches, I think Foreman would use it quite well vs Tyson.



//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWZflPW34Lo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWZflPW34Lo)

here we go, Tyrell biggs (he has Ali's style), Also proof that Tyson wasn't a one punch fighter. another thing to point out, Biggs was 6'5 and much bigger than Ali.

When he fought Tyson he was undefeated and had beat James Tillis. He was a B class fighter at the time, it was only later that he went down the drain.

The fight wasn't even close. This pretty much explains what I'm getting at. Tyson could win a UD.

Ali would eat him alive. I don;t think he had bigger punching power than Foreman or could work his way in any better than Frazier. Ali in his prime was before the ban! And Tyson had problems dealing with a washed up Larry's jabs for a few rounds and we all know it.

Yep! If Larry hadn't been ancient with erroded skils I think we likely would have seen a different ending to that fight. Holmes was 38, clearly past it, hadn't fought in two years, and foolishly thought he could perform like the Holmes of old.

Poet

I see poet finally put his real age down, although i suspect he's even older

king of all nuthuggers..and old time bias

your problem is that you hate tyson, and give him zero credit in anything. so whenever there's a poster who is a fan of mike, you immediately figure them for fan boys, who make him into the greatest etc...you're delusional man, im glad i made it on your famous wall of ignore list, shows me that ive been doing some good on these forums.

Not true at all Man. I spoken to poet about tyson many times without getting into an argument with him.

I have to disagree wih the Holmes situation tho, i dnt think he was very effective against Tyson. Rnd 4 is when he started to get on his toes and box, and this is the very round tyson tkos him. It may have been a different outcome if holmes was younger.
I was watching ESPN Ringside with Tyson. And Teddy Atlas said (while holmes was there) that tyson at that time could judge punches extremley well and Larry made his jab fairly obvious. And comming from Atlas (who on many occassions is bitter, and trys not to give tyson much credit) means a hell of alot.

Not true at all Man. I spoken to poet about tyson many times without getting into an argument with him.
That's a surprise to me. Ive been reading your discussions with him in top 10 greatest heavyweights thread, but dont be fooled for his nice guy image.

if you look at my thread where i compare Joe Louis's opponents to those of tyson, Poet says some extreme things, like Spinks was nothing more than a blown up light heavyweight, that tyson was scared and refused giving a rematch to Tucker (when Tucker dissapeared for 2 years after that fight, blowing up to 20 pounds above his average weight) and that Tyson's victories over Alex Stewart and Carl Williams were flukes. Come on man, ive been reading his garbage about Tyson on other forums too where he constantly bashes him with prison garbage. I could dig up a few of his posts where he goes really low, but im not gonna bother.

like i said dont be fooled man, this guy went on a tirade against me calling me an anus sucker, Tyson's prison groupie, and other nasty names.

I repeat, i have NEVER said anything about Tyson that resembled nuthugging, ive always been fair in my assesment, but this guy is a big asshole. He acuses me of making Tyson into more than he is, then he calls me a hater of past era fighters, where i clearly proved those statements wrong.

Poet is a delusional piece of shit, and that's putting it lightly

let's not forget that this know-it-all poster Poet said that tony galento was a legitimate contender, and a credible opponent

he also picked Marciano to beat the gigantic Lennox Lewis, either by decision or ko

Poet has no right to accuse other posters of nuthugging or other nasty names he uses

Calling him a one punch fighter is pretty ridiculous. Frazier is the definition of a one punch fighter, you literally watch the entire fight wonder if he will use his right hand at all.



what fighter emulated Ali's style? Tucker, Smith and Green all were vastly different. Tucker was 6'4 and had an uppercut, and solid power, Green was a brawler, smith was just a typical puncher.

Ali is a "dancer" he runs around the ring with his hands down, just like what Holmes and biggs tried to do and failed. On top of that he's smaller than those 3 fighters I mentioned. Ali doesn't have an uppercut ether, one of the crucial anti Tyson punches, I think Foreman would use it quite well vs Tyson.



//www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWZflPW34Lo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWZflPW34Lo)

here we go, Tyrell biggs (he has Ali's style), Also proof that Tyson wasn't a one punch fighter. another thing to point out, Biggs was 6'5 and much bigger than Ali.

When he fought Tyson he was undefeated and had beat James Tillis. He was a B class fighter at the time, it was only later that he went down the drain.

The fight wasn't even close. This pretty much explains what I'm getting at. Tyson could win a UD.

I said one punch fighter not one arm! (and ofcourse Frazier certainly did use his other arm). Point is Frazier punched in succession, he punched in flurries all throughout the fight, that is how he was able to catch and be competitive with Ali. Your clip only proves that Tyson is a one punch fighter; the fact that he throws multiple punches after this guy is hurt and is ready to go dosen't matter. Tyson is a