View Full Version : another fast twitch question


Landon S
07-16-2008, 01:07 PM
Theres a real theme goin in the forum, why spoil it.

Heavy weights low reps (weve already covered this) help develop fast twitch fibres. So what about just moving as fast as you can a few times, rest, and do it again (resting just to keep the slow twitch from doing any work)?

Or would speed have more to do with CNS adaptions (your brain tells your hand to go faster so it does)?

mkm88414
07-16-2008, 01:40 PM
not sure how to answer this question scientifically but the only thing that comes to mind is when asked how he learned to kick so fast bruce lee said "by kicking fast"

Trrmo
07-16-2008, 02:42 PM
not sure how to answer this question scientifically but the only thing that comes to mind is when asked how he learned to kick so fast bruce lee said "by kicking fast"

Yes, I think people are over analysing stuff here. Stick to the basics in nutrition and training and focus on developing technique.

PunchDrunk
07-16-2008, 03:21 PM
Yes, I think people are over analysing stuff here. Stick to the basics in nutrition and training and focus on developing technique.

It may be overanalyzing. For boxers. This is something that is very relevant to think about, learn, discuss, experiment with etc. for trainers. You'll want the best training for your fighters, technically and physically. I've seen first hand what both the wrong kind of training and the right kind can do to/for a fighter. It really does matter.

Landon S: It's a combination. I don't think anyone can tell you exactly how much each factor weighs in this, and as far as I've experienced it is probably pretty individual as well.

PS: CNS adaptations are not so much that your brain tells your hand to go faster as it is the motor units that are activated in higher numbers, and the firing sequence to the muscle that is increased in both speed and intensity.
When you see a new guy bench press, and he's holding it up but shaking, that is the firing speed which isn't up to par with the muscle contraction needed. Two or three workouts, and that shaking is gone. CNS adaptation for all to see. That is a big part of why people get relatively a lot stronger in the beginning.

Towelie
07-16-2008, 03:25 PM
I thought this was a boxing forum not a science class I personally dont touch the weights they slow you down.

Landon S
07-16-2008, 05:10 PM
Yes it is over analyzing if you only box but Im starting college to become a personal trainer (as well as boxing) so some day it will be my business to know.

So if you can get the CNS to activate the more motor units at one time and fire more often (think RPM's) then higher speed can be produced...as well as power obviously...like a V6 versus a Ferarri's V12

Dumb me, I knew all that, just didnt put it all together at the time. I guess sometimes it just takes someone else to remind you. Thanks for the help PunchDrunk.

Hearnsz
07-16-2008, 05:29 PM
I thought this was a boxing forum not a science class.
So how are the discussions on this training forum are supposed to go then?

-Hey guys! I want to get fast and strong what should I do?
-Just lift weights and you'll get there.
-Hmm? But many bodybuilders lift weights and it makes them slow. How does that work then?
-I dont know LOL, just do it!

Towelie
07-17-2008, 04:46 AM
So how are the discussions on this training forum are supposed to go then?

-Hey guys! I want to get fast and strong what should I do?
-Just lift weights and you'll get there.
-Hmm? But many bodybuilders lift weights and it makes them slow. How does that work then?
-I dont know LOL, just do it!

Ummm..no? wtf get real kid. You could just explain it normally with out going on about the complete physics about how it works, and over analyzing the **** out of it....******.

Rafael Benitez
07-17-2008, 05:22 AM
read the Warrior Speed book because it is full of tips at maximising what nature already put there. The only bit I would disagree with him is his conditioning tips because excessive weights will make it hard for you to make the weight.

PunchDrunk
07-17-2008, 07:27 AM
Ummm..no? wtf get real kid. You could just explain it normally with out going on about the complete physics about how it works, and over analyzing the **** out of it....******.

Sorry if we make you feel stupid, but knowledge is king.

Landon S
07-17-2008, 04:26 PM
conditioning tips because excessive weights will make it hard for you to make the weight.

K man, shut up. You know **** all or your an idiot.

#1: Conditioning and Lifting weights are two completely different things. Generally (if you even use weights during a particular conditioning routine) the weights are light so you can go fast. Im not explaining any more. Try re reading your book or buy some more and do everything in your power to bring your comprehension up because you infalibly misinterpret things.

#2: You said it yourself "EXCESSIVE weights will make it hard to make weight"! god damn do I really have to explain AGAIN that you can lift without gaining mass. Weights does not = HYUUUGE!

#3: Im backed up by years & years of scientific research conducted by some of the most intelligent people on earth (not "tradition" and name dropping like you), what have you got sonny?

#4: Me-->:slap: <--Rafael

ha ha I love that

I lose brain cells reading your posts

mkm88414
07-17-2008, 05:01 PM
#2: You said it yourself "EXCESSIVE weights will make it hard to make weight"! god damn do I really have to explain AGAIN that you can lift without gaining mass. Weights does not = HYUUUGE!


yeah i dont understand people who think that either. ppl lift hard and EAT BIG to gain muscle mass. it is hardly as simple as lifting weights and drinkin a shake

ExecutiveOutlaw
07-17-2008, 07:39 PM
wow i didnt know about this fast/slow twitch ****

that explains why i tire so easily yet i have good speed and power for the first few punches

them_apples
07-17-2008, 07:44 PM
I don't think weights slow me down, I only feel slow right after I do weights..if i take a week or so off..I feel great

j
07-18-2008, 04:17 AM
a lot of fast people i know don't get much into weight lifting. you do have to stay in shape, but i would not recommend overdoing it. you have to know what works best with your frame.

try getting in touch with your instincts when u box. thinking only slows you down in sparring.

and the more relaxed you are, the quicker u can move because muscles will not oppose eachother as much.

practice coordination. people aren't born coordinated.

Rafael Benitez
07-19-2008, 03:01 AM
K man, shut up. You know **** all or your an idiot.

#1: Conditioning and Lifting weights are two completely different things. Generally (if you even use weights during a particular conditioning routine) the weights are light so you can go fast. Im not explaining any more. Try re reading your book or buy some more and do everything in your power to bring your comprehension up because you infalibly misinterpret things.

#2: You said it yourself "EXCESSIVE weights will make it hard to make weight"! god damn do I really have to explain AGAIN that you can lift without gaining mass. Weights does not = HYUUUGE!

#3: Im backed up by years & years of scientific research conducted by some of the most intelligent people on earth (not "tradition" and name dropping like you), what have you got sonny?

#4: Me-->:slap: <--Rafael

ha ha I love that

I lose brain cells reading your postsYou are seriously gay and insecure. I don't have to take part in your proving yourself contest beause I have qualifications from Halton College which were funded by LFC while I played for their Academy! You are probably a bum so never learned about the two different types of speed required in boxing compared to other sports.

Anyway, we are talking about boxing not sprinting. People who want to do alot of weights to increase fast twitch fibres are clearly misguided because to box you need speed of reaction as well as speed of movement. Whilst weights improves the latter, it has been proven scientifically that they clearly hinder the former!

People who want to be bulky, stiff and easy to hit can go ahead and do some heavy weights. Speed is natural and I doubt it would help you much on the movement side either. You can try convincing yourself it does, but I'll stay fast with my knuckle press ups and I can gurantee that the weights will make you into a robot!

Landon S
07-19-2008, 04:36 AM
Ahuh, suuure buddy. Where were these 'qualifications' when you prescribed something like 5 mile run and 1000 knuckle pushups & situps a day and everybody ripped on you? why didnt you bust out the "qualifications" bomb then? btw if you had any qualifications youd see how retarded that was, theres tonnes of **** wrong with what would come of a routine like that and if youd like me to spell it all out for you you can PM me and we'll 'discuss it'. And we were talking purely speed not reaction...gee your a smart guy...going into completely different topics...

Ya know I usually try to keep a civil tongue here but you make it REALLY ****ing hard. Im not trying to prove anything, just have an INTELLIGENT discussion that was over before you piped in so SHUTEE.

Anyhow Im done with you. Your posts are nothing but 'verbal' diarrhea. Go crap somewhere else.

PunchDrunk
07-19-2008, 05:37 AM
You are seriously gay and insecure. I don't have to take part in your proving yourself contest beause I have qualifications from Halton College which were funded by LFC while I played for their Academy! You are probably a bum so never learned about the two different types of speed required in boxing compared to other sports.

Anyway, we are talking about boxing not sprinting. People who want to do alot of weights to increase fast twitch fibres are clearly misguided because to box you need speed of reaction as well as speed of movement. Whilst weights improves the latter, it has been proven scientifically that they clearly hinder the former!

People who want to be bulky, stiff and easy to hit can go ahead and do some heavy weights. Speed is natural and I doubt it would help you much on the movement side either. You can try convincing yourself it does, but I'll stay fast with my knuckle press ups and I can gurantee that the weights will make you into a robot!

Science has proven you to be an imbecile. What you're saying is false, and you clearly have not read a ****ing thing about any of this since you're pulling claims out of your ass. Go to a soccer forum and spew your bull****.

JayCoe
07-19-2008, 09:22 AM
I think first and foremost, before thinking about weights, you have to condition your brain to punch fast. You can have quick hands but if you only ever do jab, jab, backhand or left hook [body], left hook [head], backhand straight it wont dominate the other fighter. We need to train on the bag by working fast, I don't know for certain about you all but most people, myself included, do seem to work the bag in combos of 3, 4 or 5. I am a firm believer that the brain is a very important tool in boxing. In the ring you don't have time to plan things out and if you do, you'll end up getting caught and destroyed, however, you also can't 'let go' and let your reactions take control because there are tactics and skills, guards to be kept up, movements to be made etc, you still have to be intelligent, therefore, it is crucial that the boxer meets somewhere in the middle of reaction and cognitive thinking.

PunchDrunk
07-19-2008, 02:19 PM
I think first and foremost, before thinking about weights, you have to condition your brain to punch fast. You can have quick hands but if you only ever do jab, jab, backhand or left hook [body], left hook [head], backhand straight it wont dominate the other fighter. We need to train on the bag by working fast, I don't know for certain about you all but most people, myself included, do seem to work the bag in combos of 3, 4 or 5. I am a firm believer that the brain is a very important tool in boxing. In the ring you don't have time to plan things out and if you do, you'll end up getting caught and destroyed, however, you also can't 'let go' and let your reactions take control because there are tactics and skills, guards to be kept up, movements to be made etc, you still have to be intelligent, therefore, it is crucial that the boxer meets somewhere in the middle of reaction and cognitive thinking.

I agree, it's just that what you're talking about is off topic. Technique is one thing, physical training is another. You need both, obviously.

j
07-20-2008, 02:31 PM
I think first and foremost, before thinking about weights, you have to condition your brain to punch fast. You can have quick hands but if you only ever do jab, jab, backhand or left hook [body],

not your brain, you mean your mind. and actually, you should also really try to bypass that so your movements are natural. animals can take care of themselves without thinking really. if you practice and get comfortable in a million different situations, everything just happens. there is no need to try to make anything happen. i think u know what i mean - i am tired and haven't slept so i may ramble a bit. thinking is done in very early parts of training. getting all of those thoughts and strategies to instantly manifest at the right time is another thing.

I agree, it's just that what you're talking about is off topic. Technique is one thing, physical training is another. You need both, obviously.

technique is physical training. i don't often separate the two or think about them separate.

Stormin' Norman
07-20-2008, 03:53 PM
I thought this was a boxing forum not a science class I personally dont touch the weights they slow you down.

Boxing is a science.

PunchDrunk
07-20-2008, 04:47 PM
technique is physical training. i don't often separate the two or think about them separate.

Yeah, technique is physical as well as mental, agreed. I also agree that in the fight situation, you need to total package to just flow. However, when improving an athlete, I find it advantageous to break down the different parameters, so I can identify weaknesses and strengths, what needs work, and how to do that. It's called the scientific approach, and it works a lot better than guesswork.

j
07-20-2008, 05:12 PM
Yeah, technique is physical as well as mental, agreed. I also agree that in the fight situation, you need to total package to just flow. However, when improving an athlete, I find it advantageous to break down the different parameters, so I can identify weaknesses and strengths, what needs work, and how to do that. It's called the scientific approach, and it works a lot better than guesswork.

yeah, me too. but when working on something specific that is physical in nature, it cannot not be physical training. i may just focus more on one particular area. so, i think we agree here. if not, at least we know how to discuss something.

j
07-20-2008, 05:16 PM
punch, thanks for the respect btw. i really do not care about who has respect on a damn internet forum. but i have had people PM me and say i should talk more in the training area and ignore what seems to be one or two people who be hating. it is always one person and his alt or some ****.

i started contact sparring when i was 6 years old in karate. that is 20 years ago. i really do not care what some teenaged pimple faced internet warrior is going to say. but is does **** up a nice conversation.

Fidayin
07-20-2008, 05:18 PM
punch, thanks for the respect btw. i really do not care about who has respect on a damn internet forum. but i have had people PM me and say i should talk more in the training area and ignore what seems to be one or two people who be hating. it is always one person and his alt or some ****.

i started contact sparring when i was 6 years old in karate. that is 20 years ago. i really do not care what some teenaged pimple faced internet warrior is going to say. but is does **** up a nice conversation.

oh i really think u care or else you wouldn't write that many lines where u are trying to prove that you don't care.

PunchDrunk
07-20-2008, 05:19 PM
yeah, me too. but when working on something specific that is physical in nature, it cannot not be physical training. i may just focus more on one particular area. so, i think we agree here. if not, at least we know how to discuss something.

Again, I agree that it's all physical. I use the term physical training when I'm talking about training specific physical traits, like endurance or strength, where technical training would be more boxing specific stuff like pad work or sparring. It does cross over, since a lot of the technical work can actually serve as conditioning as well, and a few of the physical things I use can have a technical element. So, in short, the terms let you know where the focus is, in a specific workout.

And yes, it is quite refreshing to have an actual discussion, instead of a mud slinging contest. :)

j
07-20-2008, 05:32 PM
Again, I agree that it's all physical. I use the term physical training when I'm talking about training specific physical traits, like endurance or strength, where technical training would be more boxing specific stuff like pad work or sparring. It does cross over, since a lot of the technical work can actually serve as conditioning as well, and a few of the physical things I use can have a technical element. So, in short, the terms let you know where the focus is, in a specific workout.

And yes, it is quite refreshing to have an actual discussion, instead of a mud slinging contest. :)


yeah. there are martial arts forums i could be on if i wanted to. but i love boxing so i chill here. and a lot of times, there are immature people but i don't give a ****.

i remember u are a boxer i think, right? that's why i wanted u to read blog and see how what i do differs from what you do. actually, my teacher has boxing training and wrote an article comparing eastern boxing to western boxing. i should scan and send it to ya sometime.

yes exactly - the overlap. it is always there. i do also utilize exercises that are more common like various kinds of sit ups. but, what i like to do more is encorporate my physical exercises with my fighting techniques sometimes. so, i fight the way i practice, and i practice the way i exercise, and i exercise what skill i want.

j
07-20-2008, 05:37 PM
yo punch, i PM you with something somewhat relevent to this discussion

Landon S
07-20-2008, 10:03 PM
not your brain, you mean your mind. and actually, you should also really try to bypass that so your movements are natural. animals can take care of themselves without thinking really.

I just think its interesting to note that animals minds operate at a much faster rate than ours. I was watching a program about 5 years ago and it said that a dog or cat looking at a TV would see something similar to what we see when the V-hold is way off, flickering like crazy because its like they see between the frames. Our perception is slow enough that the approx 25 fps seem to blend so it looks fluid to us...totally not related but whatever. Its neat to know.

J, How do you blend your physical & technical training? minute drills or something? could you give an example? how exactly do you feel you benefit from it?

btw- I didnt mean to sling anything before. I was just sick of raph and felt I HAD to say something.

j
07-22-2008, 03:54 PM
I just think its interesting to note that animals minds operate at a much faster rate than ours. I was watching a program about 5 years ago and it said that a dog or cat looking at a TV would see something similar to what we see when the V-hold is way off, flickering like crazy because its like they see between the frames. Our perception is slow enough that the approx 25 fps seem to blend so it looks fluid to us...totally not related but whatever. Its neat to know.

J, How do you blend your physical & technical training? minute drills or something? could you give an example? how exactly do you feel you benefit from it?

btw- I didnt mean to sling anything before. I was just sick of raph and felt I HAD to say something.

alright man - well, you can think of an exercise you might be familiar with. let's say a bicep curl. you only slightly, very slightly have to modify your arm movement in a bicep curl to form an uppercut type motion. so, maybe bicep curl could be one part of your physical training aspect of the technique, or even better, the principal of the uppercut. then you would be doing pretty much the same movement in application drills where, as example, a guy does one movement and you throw uppercut as counter. that is closer towards the function part of training the movement where as the curl would be closer to the form part. form and function.

it is like how people think of punching with dumbells. except you can go a lot deeper into the movement itself and really learn what your uppercut is about. so i don't limit my training to weight practice and functional application - i do everything in between too.

really, if you use your imagination, you will probably come up with some nice stuff as long as you are passed beginning level. you will probably find out that what you thought you made up was done before - probably a long time ago as well. there is nothing new. if you can think it up, it has been practiced before.

that's why i like rossboxing - he gets creative with his stuff. i see many of the things he does are actually really, really old martial arts practices.